Why cant there be another Batman, Sups...etc?

[Gpoliceman]

After posting my reply to whether or not Batman Beyond is the future of Batman or just a possible future (what I believe), I realized something...

How come we agree to three different Flashes (Jay, Barry, Wally)?
How come we agree to many different Green Lanterns (Alan I think, Hal, John, Kyle)?
How come we agree to two different Green Arrows (Oliver, Conner)?
How come we agree to three different Robins (Dick, Jason, Tim)?
How come we agree to two Batgirls (Barb, Cassandra)?
How come we agree to two Hawkmans (Carter, Kartar)?

How come if we, the fans, agree to all these different people wearing the same names of our favorite super heroes, how come then we flip out when anybody OTHER than Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent (Ka-el) play Batman and Superman?

Now, I do admit I get upset knowing anybody else is under the mantle besides Bruce, but I would like to know why...

Why do you think we blow up at changes to Batman and Superman's alter egos, but not other heroes?

Why can't Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent every die to allow Batman II and Superman II to arise?

Green Lantern has done it like six times! lol

Gpoliceman

[Kal-el]

I think you've asked excellent questions Gpoliceman. Unfortunately I don't think they have easy answers for most people.

As for myself, I believe the answer is surprisingly easy, though difficult. All the other heroes you mentioned, they are all great in their own right. Some of them have been able to pass their legacy to another...eithe rin death, by choice, or matter of circumstance.

The two heroes that cannot do this are the two greatest of all time. They have no equals, no peers, no one able to fill their boots. Batman and Superman carry on an ongoing arrogance...an untouchability. Both have undergone changes throughout the years (Electric Superman, dead Superman, broken back Batman, etc), bu thtey've always returned to their roots, their original form. What other heroes can make that same claim?

[TimTwoFace]

Batman and Superman are too iconic. No one but Bruce Wayne an embody what Batman stands for - no one is that right combination of altruism, justice, darkness, and vengeance. Yeah, Terry McGinnis took up the mantle of Batman, but it wasn't really the same thing. Remember when Jean Paul Valley was Batman for a while? That was absolutely terrible!

And who, besides Clark Kent, can BE Superman? The sheer idea of it just sounds nutty.

As for the Robins - they're the ever-rotating #1 sidekick. Any male youngin' under Batman's command is relegated to the title of "Robin" - the brighter, more fun hero in the cave which Batman likes to have around in order to keep things from getting TOO depressing. Besides, one Robin grew up, a second one was killed...they needed to be replaced. I know, you can just not HAVE a Robin, I guess, but honestly, what's Batman without a Robin in the picture somewhere?

Batgirl...we lasted years between Barb's paralyzing and Cassandra's first appearance. Originally in NO MAN'S LAND it was the Huntress dressing up in the Batgirl suit in order to impress Batman and finally get on his good side. When Batman took Cassandra under his wing, she took Helena's place. I would be upset with this move if they didn't keep the conflict between the two Batgirls (Barb and Cassie) in check; of course, that's become more of a friendship, now.

Green Lantern...aren't they part of a "Green Lantern Corps." or something, and there are literally hundreds of them all over the world?

Hmmm..."Green Lantern" seems like a job title, and I guess you could sort of make the same argument for "Robin" and "Batgirl". Of course, more often than not, we know DC did this for marketing purposes. :D

-Tim

[Allen's Nickname.]

Originally posted by Gpoliceman
How come we agree to three different Robins (Dick, Jason, Tim)? Four. Carrie Kelly. Have to include Carrie Kelly.

[Patrick Bateman]

Four. Carrie Kelly. Have to include Carrie Kelly.
Carrie doesn't count. DKR was Elseworlds.

[Mr. Obsession]

I think one of the major points of Batman Beyond was that it proved that someone else can be Batman, not The Batman (that's role will always be Bruce's), but Batman.

As for Superman, who are they going to replace him with?

The bottom line is Batman and Superman have too much history behind them to suddenly put someone else in the role now. I suspect that we accept that someone else can take over the role of GL or Flash because fans let it's happen before, granted some fans weren't happy about it, but the fan's stood by and let it happen. Batman and Superman, on the other hand, have achieved the status of cultural icons. Virtually everyone knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne and Superman is Clark Kent, regardless of how knowledgeable they are when it comes to comics.

Besides, I think the boys (and girls) at DC know that if they tried to replace Batman or Superman permanently their fans would make sure that blood flood freely at the DC offices. :) But really, given the current state of comic sales the last thing they want to do is alienate more readers and drastically changing either of these two heroes would do that.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Just for the record, there are still hardcore comic geeks who don't accept things like Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern or Connor Hawke as Green Arrow. Heck, some of them are still ticked off that Barry Allen and Kara Zor-el were killed off in the Crisis. And don't get me started on Hawkman.

As for why we don't accept alternate Batmen or Supermen, I think the real reason is that they got here first. Think about it: Superman has been in continuous publication since 1937 (?), and Batman since 1939. Sales may have waxed and waned over time, but those guys were constants, even in the Golden->Silver Age transition.

The "Golden Age" of comics ended because of a massive drop in comic sales across the board. DC axed every title they had, except the ones with Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. It took quite a few years to begin the Silver Age, whereupon they revived and revamped the older heroes for more modern times. I think nobody complained about the loss of Jay Garrick as the Flash because nobody was reading his comics anyway.

Say what you like about them, but DC's big three have stayed American cultural icons for fifty years or more. I can't think of any other fictional characters that have managed to hold our imaginations continuously for that long.

This doesn't necessarily explain the changing Robins, of course, since the character has been around almost as long as Batman. However, all the Robins are completely interchangable in my mind (except maybe Carrie Kelly :)). He could have stayed Dick Grayson forever and I'm not sure it would have really mattered in the long run.

-- Ed/Ace

[TimTwoFace]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Superman has been in continuous publication since 1937 (?), and Batman since 1939.

Actually, Superman was created in 1938, though I think DC Comics existed since '37 - Batman jsut didn't appear until issue #27 in May '39. :)

Anyway, that was a great post, and it summed up my feelings, too - and in better language. :p

-Tim

[Webryder]

Originally posted by Mr. Obsession
I think one of the major points of Batman Beyond was that it proved that someone else can be Batman, not The Batman (that's role will always be Bruce's), but Batman.

As for Superman, who are they going to replace him with?


Well there was those four wannabe's that tried to take the throne after Superman's death in the 'reign' arc: The Eridicator, Cyborg (which was very cool), Steel, Superboy/man (also a character I liked) and even Supergirl (Matrix) showed up at one time to try and work the streets of Metropolis while he was in the ground.

So even tho it was proven he can't be replaced, it was definitely NOT for their lack of trying.

So while it was a very enjoyable read and ushered in 2 brand new characters that had never before existed in the DCU (whom all had since moved onto their own title and distinct identities), from the perspective of a Superman fan it was good to come full circle and have the real steel deal back and in top form because you just can't top the original. Except no substitutes. ;)

[Drachentöter]

I'm almost stumped. What follows is what's going through my head as I write this...

Flash--The Kid Flash thing. In the case of the Flash, the only way "The Fastest Man Alive" can be replaced is if he dies and the "Second Fastest Man Alive" takes his place. In this case, they're the people under the original Flash's wing.

Green Lantern--A GL is not an individual hero, but a member of the Green Lantern Corps. No biggie there. (There is the Kyle/John Steward feud though).

Green Arrow--don't know enough. Don't read comics.

Robin--speaing strictly from a toon point of view, Robin seems to be a title that gets outgrown. Dick Grayson was tired of being the "Boy Wonder" and Tim Drake was getting restless by the end of TNBA (and that was just at 13!). Robin is forever associated as Batman's sidekick and when a hero wants to make his own identity, he must abandon the yellow cape.

Batgirl--Again, I'm not a comic expert, but as I understand it, Barbara couldn't continue the Batgirl thing after being paralyzed. That was replacement by default. I'm sure it caused some controversy in the 80's, but then Batgirl was a "sidekick" and because of that, it wore off. Like Nightwing, Oracle is her own person.

No clue about Hawkman.

So, here come the big boys. Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent, why are they the perpetual superheroes?

With Batman, I believe people don't have a problem with Batman being replaced (hence the overall acceptance of Batman Beyond) as much as Bruce Wayne being replaced. Why were so many fans glad that Batman Beyond still had Bruce behind the scenes? Why couldn't the writers phase him out?

Because Bruce is a personallity by himslef. Bruce Wayne lost his family, Bruce Wayne fell into the batcave, Bruce Wayne is owner of Wayne Corp. I see the Batman in BTAS/TNBA and JL as Bruce Wayne and Batman in BB as Terry McGinnis. I don't refer to the "real" Batman. They're both the real Batman. One just has more depth to his character. If people dislike BB for the sole reason of a new man behind the mask, that's just being obsessive.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to be so...blatant. How's this...I disagree with people who dislike Batman Beyond because there's a new man behind the mask. Better? Less offensive? Okay. ;)

Superman that's even tougher. Hands down, the first superhero, his legacy spans generations and he's not an Earth mortal like Bruce Wayne. Let's face it, there are many orphan humans who are full of angst. There's only one survivor from Krypton (without counting Jax-Ur, or whoever else you can come up with, because they're 1/billionth as known). Clark Kent is also a very interesting personallity and rivals Bruce Wayne in depth.

Clark Kent is the Superman, I don't see a way around it.

[Condiment King]

How come we agree to three different Flashes (Jay, Barry, Wally)?
Everyone knows about the Golden Age and the Earth-1 and Earth-2 dibacle. It has been accepted that Jay was the Golden Age Flash and Barry Allen was introduced as the Flash (Silver Age) in the revamp in Showcase. Of course, in between those two, many fans either didn't know of Jay or were just glad to see the Flash was back whether it was someone new or not. Of course, Barry Allen died in the Crisis and an event as big as that, it was expected almost that someone would die. Also, Tomar Re (Green Lantern Corps member) died in the Crisis.


How come we agree to many different Green Lanterns (Alan I think, Hal, John, Kyle)?
In the Golden Age, the Green Lantern (Alan Scott) was the only GL and there was no Green Lantern Corps ever introduced. That all changed after Showcase #22 with the Silver Age Green Lantern revamp with Hal Jordan. Later, the Green Lantern Corps was introduced. There were 3600 Green Lanterns. So, it was nothing new to GL fans to have a rotating cast. At one point, 7 Green Lanterns were centralized at Earth. When the GL Corps killed Sinestro, all of the GL Corps lost their rings except for Ch'p, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, and G'Nort because of an ancient promise between the Guardians and the Korguranians. Anyway, Hal Jordan recruited a new GL Corps but when he went mad, he took most of them out and Hal Jordan became Parallax. Through it all, only one GL was left, Kyle Rayner. Hal Jordan died sacrificing his life for the world in the Zero Hour storyline and became the Spectre, a spirit of redemption and vengeance. At this time, John Stewart became the Green Lantern once again while Kyle Rayner and Jade go off to take a trip through space to find themselves. I'm still trying to get over Hal Jordan not being GL anymore since I am a diehard, hardcore Hal fan but I'll deal with it. :D ;)


How come we agree to two different Green Arrows (Oliver, Conner)?
Since Ollie died at one point, its accepted by some.


How come we agree to three different Robins (Dick, Jason, Tim)?
Since Dick Grayson became Nightwing and (rather unpopular) Jason Todd died, Robin has become one of the most accepted rotating superhero.


How come we agree to two Batgirls (Barb, Cassandra)?
Since there is such a long gap between Barb and Cassandra, I suppose its accepted by most. Its just cool to have another Batgirl while Barbara Gordon doesn't ever fad away either.

As for Superman and Batman, it has happened somewhat. (The Death of Superman, The Reign of the Supermen, Knightfall, Knightquest: The Crusade, Batman Beyond)

I would guess that it is because it just plain hasn't really truly happened before since Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent always become Batman and Superman once again before the day is done.

Also, after all of the complaining when Superman became the blue electric being and then the Superman Red/Superman Blue storyline, I wouldn't suspect that there would be many people buying if they ever changed Supermans anytime soon. :D