Let's play: If an event in history was screwed up.

[I.R Joey]

Okay here's how it goes. Someone gets a timemachine and changes one big historical event. Okay I'll start and whoever comes after me posts some possible reprocussions, and then makes their own historical screwed up, then the next person comes up with a scenario.


Okay somebody travels back about 200 years before the age of discovery and lands in the Americas. He then continues to distibute advanced firearms (Lasers, riffles, rockets) to the natives throughout the two continets, and makes sure they understand them well, and use them well. Then they make sure that the natives have developed immunity to diseases such as small pox and stuff. What would happen?

[Psycho Fox]

Well if you gave them bolt action rifles ie Mosers they would be able to hold back the invading europans with simple riflemen tactics (form a line with each man a arm length from each other) but if you teach them Gurrilla warfare as well so they can ambush them then back in europ they might think that the world was flat or some junk except for fishermen that didn't belive in that junk.

Ok someone goes back and stops Tailor (the true inventor of mass production... Ford just was the first to adopt it) from discovering mass production.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Hm....most likely what 'industry' would be limited to guilds. The Industrial Revolution would not happen, and folks today would have very few possesions, due to the fact that prices are high for hand-made goods. Agriculture would be the main source of employment. Also, if something broke, you're screwed unless you can find the guy who made it and get him t repair it....due to the fact that no good would be exactly the same.

What if Rome never 'fell'?

[DR. BELCH]

Do you mean if it hadn't fallen at all, or had fallen at a later date? The Renaissance would have been nonexistant or delayed, since it was Rome's fall that took Europe out of the Dark Age. So it would depend on whether history is a closed system (if one event fails to happen, everything falls apart) or a fate-driven one (certain events would happen, but maybe later and through someone else--if Napoleon had won at Waterloo, he probably would've died within six months of stomach cancer and lost France anyway, or if Hitler's mother had succeeded in aborting him, another European dictator would rise in a generation or two to carry out his atrocities).
Of course, suppose someone traveled back in time to give the Sumarians A-bombs at the time they created the wheel? Then maybe there'd be nothing at all....[insert Loud kiddingtonesque KABOOM! here]

[I.R Joey]

I think yer right there. If they knew how to use the thing they would abuse its power, and they probably would have wiped out their foes as well as themselves. But then The Nile, the Indus, or the Yellow River may have given rise to the society that influenced the world.


Now for a more recent time. What if we traveled back to the early/ mid 1990's (man that sounds weird) and stopped the internet from ever getting mainstream appeal. How would the economy, and the cultural center itself be diffrent?

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Geekdom would not be the powerful empire it is now.... ;)

But frankly, infomation would be a lot harder to come by; let's face it, the library can't give you everything. The economy might certainly be not as strong as it is today, what with all these online banking/selling/buying coporations. Culture itself would certainly be different, we might still be in or starting to get out of an 80s-esque thing....(shudders)

...okay REALLY bad guessing on my part for that situation...here's a new one. What if Britain had crushed the Americans in the U.S. Revolution?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon
Geekdom would not be the powerful empire it is now.... ;)

But frankly, infomation would be a lot harder to come by; let's face it, the library can't give you everything. The economy might certainly be not as strong as it is today, what with all these online banking/selling/buying coporations. Culture itself would certainly be different, we might still be in or starting to get out of an 80s-esque thing....(shudders)Oh the humanity :)


.here's a new one. What if Britain had crushed the Americans in the U.S. Revolution? Hmmmm well US would be first in WWI and WWII as it would be either a colony or republic of the Britsh Empire. After WWII US will probably claim indepence from Britian anyway along the others

[don Jaime]

Two words for you, Joey: Harry Turtledove. I can't stand the way he cannot wrap a storyline for squat, but you should like him. You'd probably start with The Guns of the South, which involves a Confederacy armed with AK47's. There's also a seemingly endless series about aliens invading during WW2 called Worldwar and Colonization, and another interminable series about a Confederacy lasting into the '20s (so far). He also ghostwrote a book called The Two Georges for Richard Dreyfus about a British North America where the Revolution never started, and I think there's a short story collection, too. Turtledove's a good gateway into the alternate history genre.

[I.R Joey]

I'm not really that into alternate history Sci-Fi but its okay.


What if two sentient species occupied the Earth at the same time from the start of history. Humans and some bizzare form of creature that looks nothing like us. Would there be a war, or would cooperation eventually form?

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Knowing human nature, there would be a war. Humanity has already divided into all these nations that fight each other....here we have a whole 'nother species! It'd only be inevitable.

Okay....new topic. What if the bolveshiks lost the Russian Revolution?

And I will try to find those books, don Jaime...

[Nightflower]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon
Knowing human nature, there would be a war. Humanity has already divided into all these nations that fight each other....here we have a whole 'nother species! It'd only be inevitable.


Yeah, really. I mean, within the human species, we already have "races", and there are already prejudices against said races. God knows what would happen if there was another species.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by BourgeoisBuffoon
Knowing human nature, there would be a war. Humanity has already divided into all these nations that fight each other....here we have a whole 'nother species! It'd only be inevitable. Ok but what if where human like animals ie something like Beast from X-men that lived in the bush and they didn't want war but they would defend their turf. If you ask me we might at first be at war with them but if it turns into a Vitnam where after years we get nowhere there might be an on easy peace bettwen them.


Okay....new topic. What if the bolveshiks lost the Russian Revolution?
WWII would be longer since Russia would not get the industral boom it needed to keep Nazi Germany at bay. The open of operation Barseralla (SP?) would be differnt with Germany slowed since experenced gernerals and commanders would probably still be alive but Russia would not be able to bounce back like it did

Ok new one...What would happen Russia beat the US to the moon?

[optimal321]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox


Ok new one...What would happen Russia beat the US to the moon?

Nothing really. The red scare would go on for a few more years along w/ the cold war. But since America hasn't really done anything after we put our flag on the moon, i doubt Russia would.

What would happen if the "no alcohol" Amendment was still in action. (I should know what it is called, but i guess i've been out of school for too long:) Hopefully you'll know what i mean)

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Speakeasies would still be big business....especially today, since crie today is so much more dangerous. On the other hand, even with speakesies, alcohol in the U.S. would be WAY down in cosumption. It could also have started off a BIG campaign to destroy other vices like smoking, since the 18th amendment would have sucessfully stood the test of time.

As for the alien species, if it did turn into a Vietnam, we may have a peace in the end, as Pyscho Fox said, albeit an uneasy one.

New topic...what if Greece was destroyed by Persia in the Persian wars?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by optimal321


Nothing really. The red scare would go on for a few more years along w/ the cold war. But since America hasn't really done anything after we put our flag on the moon, i doubt Russia would.

What would happen if the "no alcohol" Amendment was still in action. (I should know what it is called, but i guess i've been out of school for too long:) Hopefully you'll know what i mean) Well rum,beer,wine,ect will be the primary industry for nations close to the US (Canada,Mexico,Carribin Islands). Tourisum will also increse as American flock to these countries to drink and have fun. These nations money in turn will be close to par with the States. The Mafia will be more powerful and Los Vegas will probably be in their control still. The Mofia power and influence over the years will increas to super high levels as the counties that benifit from this will provide them with arm and money secretly to protect their fat economy. The Great Depresion would not be as bad as the Moffia would keep the economy going as during that time as people would resort to more drinking.

[I.R Joey]

If Greece whee destroyed by the Persians during the war, Sparta and Athens would have been crushed. Athens would have never experianced its golden years and much of Greek culture would have never existed. Additionally the Persians may have taken Macedonia, meaning no Phillip and subsequently no Alexander, and thus no spread of Greek culture through Asia. But then again who knows Persia may have become to large an empire, (extending from the middle of Europe all the way to India) and eventually they could have collapsed.


what if firearms where never created?

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Oh, boy...a biggie...

Wars, for one thing, would not NEARLY be as destructive as they are tody. Not only that, but unless you say fate helps history, we may not be as advanced as we are now. The most gunpowder would get used is in fireworks. Going back to history being altered, we still may have Native Americans running the Americas becuase Euros, had they discovered America, could not possibly have defeated the Aztec, Inca, and some major North American empires and confederacies. In fact, Asia may very well be the world center and not America/Europe because firearms were THE thing that catapulted Europe into its position into history...

What if Napoleon conquered Europe?

[I.R Joey]

Maybe I'm just weird but if the little Emperor had taken Europe, he probably still would have died a little bit after. Then I believe Europe would have split back into its original factions, through revolution and stuff.

What if the 1960's civil rights movement had failed?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by don Jaime
Two words for you, Joey: Harry Turtledove.

If you're looking for non-fiction, check out Niall Ferguson's "Virtual History," a collection of essays by noted historians tackling the same theme. Related books (or what amazon cites as related books): "Almost America : From the Colonists to Clinton : A 'What If' History of the U.S" by Steve Tally; "What If? : The World's Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been" by Robert Cowley (Editor), Stephen E. Ambrose (Editor); "Triumph Of The Third Reich" by A. Edward Cooper; "Roads Not Taken : Tales of Alternate History" by Gardner Dozois (Editor), Stanley Schmidt (Editor).

For what it's worth, "The Man in the High Castle" (I think that's the title) has a striking example of how difficult this kind of exercise can be. It's set in a world where the Axis won WWII. At one point a character speculates on an alternate reality in which the Allies win, and concocts a scenario entirely different from what happened in our world, and which is (from our perspective) amusingly far-fetched.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Racial prejudice, not just against blacks but against other ethnic groups-would still exist. These groups would still face major disadvantages in life; 'separate but equal' would still be the law. In fact, worldwide ethnic prejudice would still exist; look at South Africa's arpethid, which partially backed down because of how other nations that got out of racial prejudice pressured it to get out too.

Hm....what if television was never invented?

[optimal321]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
If Greece whee destroyed by the Persians during the war, Sparta and Athens would have been crushed. Athens would have never experianced its golden years and much of Greek culture would have never existed. Additionally the Persians may have taken Macedonia, meaning no Phillip and subsequently no Alexander, and thus no spread of Greek culture through Asia. But then again who knows Persia may have become to large an empire, (extending from the middle of Europe all the way to India) and eventually they could have collapsed.


what if firearms where never created?

Also, our favorite superhero would have no motivation to fight crime. That's Batman, in case you couldn't tell:)

[Frozen]

I wonder if there would even have been a WWII if Britain had won the war of independance. It was one thing for Hitler, as he much as he genuinely respected the British empire, to ignore the British threat to declare war if Germany invaded Poland, but it would be quite another for him to have such a cavalier attitude to an empire that boasted both the best navy in the world and the resources, man-power etc enjoyed by the US...

Not too sure there'd have been a US civil war either... Any thoughts?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Frozen
I wonder if there would even have been a WWII if Britain had won the war of independance. It was one thing for Hitler, as he much as he genuinely respected the British empire, to ignore the British threat to declare war if Germany invaded Poland, but it would be quite another for him to have such a cavalier attitude to an empire that boasted both the best navy in the world and the resources, man-power etc enjoyed by the US...

Not too sure there'd have been a US civil war either... Any thoughts?

What would have happened after a forestalled American Revolution? Well, that rather depends upon the policies pursued by the British govt. after their victory.

A vindictive govt. might have implemented policies to contain growth in the colonies, strengthening Native American tribes (as well as the Spanish dominions in Florida and the trans-Mississippi) as a bulwark, and restricting immigration onto the continent. "Filibustering" expeditions into the interior might have led to the creation of small, independent republics (like the Boer republics in south Africa before the turn of the century), but these would have been weak entities, and might ultimately have been absorbed (again, like the Boers). Restrictive trade and industrial policies might have kept the American continent as a backwater. The resulting Anglo-American empire would have had nowhere near the resources of the actual British-US alliance in the 20th century. Hitler might have actually had a much easier time of it.

On the other hand, liberal policies might have led to a result not all that different from actuality. The liberalization of trade, and an industrial boom in the North American Dominions (to coin a phrase referring to the British possessions there) might have led to growth so great that subsequent ministries would see no choice but to loosen trans-Atlantic ties; the loose confederation that Canada ultimately came to have with GB might have been anticipated across the whole continent by 75 years. The resulting preponderance of British power (based heavily on its North American wing) might have forestalled not just WWII, but the Great War as well. Wilhelmine Germany, had it made the same thrust for continental domination, would have faced the equivalent of America's 1917 intervention in 1914. The war would have been shorter, less destructive, and had far less pernicious aftereffects.

Bottom line: I'm not sure the Revolution forestalled has clear consequences. But that's one of my suspicions about these "counterfactual" games in general. There are lots of places between a possible change and the present for complex and interesting things to occur.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

As for the U.S. Civil War, that would probably not have happened. For one thing, the original point o' the war, preserving the union, would need not have happend!
As for slavery, it was outlawed by Britain in 1834, so that woulda taken a good chunk out of any cause for it. Also, Britain would probably enforce this law, even though cotton exports from the U.S. depended on slave labor...but then again, the U.S. would probably still have exported tons of it.

What if the Invincible Armada conquered England?

[DR. BELCH]

Well...presuming firearms were still about, the Revolutionary War would've been against Spain rather than England, and if there were no other significant alterations, like Benedict Arnold turning traitor (although we still won without him) or Washington dying in battle (would John Adams have been the first President, then, or another man?), America would still be victorious.
Now an odd one: suppose someone had had relations with Joan of Arc and impregnated her. Would the English still have burned her at the stake in her delicate condition, or spared her and the baby? Would the history of France be greatly altered if she'd lived?

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

I doubt France's history itself would have been greatly altered, by the time Joan was burned at stake, she had already won the most important victories for France. She was already a rallying symbol for the French, so they would have kept fighting harder till the English got kicked out anyway.
I dunno about her living....people at the time were pretty cruel, and I think she honestly would have been burned anyway. But then, maybe I'm a pessimist, at the very least the baby may have allowed to have been born, THEN the burning. The English despised her very much...