B:TAS "Never Fear" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Discuss this classic Batman: The Animated Series episode from the The New Batman Adventures era!


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/06neverfear/10.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

[Stu]

I thought this was one of the better episodes of TNBA. It gives us a great redesign for the Scarecrow and its one of the few episodes to highlight Robin. But when Bruce broke in it should've been as Matches Malone (and if that was Matches then he needs a better character design). Also why did they change Scarecrows voice? The other guy was fine.

[TimTwoFace]

I assume they changed the Scarecrow's voice because the original voice actor (Henry Polic II) was busy with other projects.

Anyway, I thought the episode was great. The new Scarecrow design rocks, and the story showed a new twist on the capabilities of his fear gas. The animation was top notch, too - TMS has never let me down. The interplay between Robin and a kick-ass no-holds-barred Batman was great, too.

My only complaint was that the episode wrapped up too quickly (as with all TNBA episodes). I wonder why Bruce didn't go into the self-help seminar as Matches, either. Hmmm.

-Tim

[Webryder]

"I'm in the phone book ba-by!" ;) spoken by no-fear gas induced Wayne employee after kissing kissing Bruce Waynes secretary and my pick for the best line in the episode.

The episode explored a creative spin on the old Scarecrow fear gas with this new experimental batch actually removing peoples fears thus making them become amateur Daredevils. With this new gas also comes a new Scarecrow redesign which is one of my favorites out of all of the facelifts Batman's villains have gotten in TNBA. It really adds a new sinister and creepy depth to him that the old BTAS ones came close to but never was able to touch.

Althought it does bring up a question about what happened to him to make him look like that. :eek: It looks like he mutated or something. Maybe breathin' in his own product over time causes horrible side effects or maybe he just sprung in for a better costume--I dunno, anybody?

The first time I caught this ep, it did come as a surprise that Robin ropped that hand that fed him. A very nice character development moment right there, when he made a choice to disobey Batman, his psuedo-father not to mention bread and butter, in order to make sure he didn't cross the line of no return which he would've. That was a big step for him as a hero and I'm guessing not an easy choice to make in the slightest.

Obviously "The Bat has taught him well." ;)

I think Bruce respected him alot more after that as a partner that can be trust to have his back in almost any situation or opponent. Even if that opponent is Batman himself.

One of the best TNBA in my opinion, I enjoyed it. :D

I mean hell just watching Batman dodging bullets is worth at least a three and a half all by itself :eek: :eek: :D :D

[Webryder]

Originally posted by The Red Bird
But when Bruce broke in it should've been as Matches Malone (and if that was Matches then he needs a better character design).

I know, who does he think he is trying to pull off a disguise like that, Superman!?!.....That is...er...uh....I meant Clark Kent. :o Yeah, yeah that's the ticket! :D :o

[Condiment King]

****

"A little fear's a good thing." -Batman

This episode showed an awesome reincarnation of the character known as Scarecrow. It was interesting to see Scarecrow taking away people's fears instead of magnifying them.

The Batman/Robin scene with Robin tying Batman up was intense! :D Tim showed that he wasn't just some gullible kid and it was awesome to see him restrain the Bat.

[susan123]

I agree that "Never Fear" is one of the better episodes of TNBA. I really like how that without fear, Batman is as heartless and cruel as those he brings in. As mentioned in "Mask of the Phantasm" Alfred says Bruce walks the along the edge of vengeance every night but has not fallen in. If Robin was not there to back him up in this episode, Bruce would have fallen in. This episode really shows how close to the edge Batman operates.

[Patrick Bateman]

I really like this episode. Robin is portrayed more like the Tim Drake of the comics, not just a smart-mouth sidekick ala Jason Todd. I really liked the part were he went to untie Batman, then he came to a dead stop and just said "You almost fooled me".

Also, believe it or not, but I actually like Scarecrow's second design from BTAS more than the TNBA design. It's cool, but I don't like the long arms hanging out of his trenchcoat. It just doesn't look to me like Jonathan Crane could be the man in the costume.

But all in all, really cool episode.

BTW, nice disguise, Bruce. ;)

[JohnStewart-GL]

I thought this was a great ep and loved seeing it again. Tim Drake's portrayal was very good in this. I liked how he stood up to bats. What ep airs tomorrow?

[SirLemming]

The new Scarecrow looks WAY more threatening than the old one. I also think Jeffrey Combs is a wonderful actor (especially as Weyoun in Deep Space Nine). Did the guy who used to voice Scarecrow die or something? I'm sorry if I'm getting it wrong. I feel like some Batman-related voice actor died... was it him?

Anyway, fantastic episode. Really great concepts here, and plenty of "mature themes." And what was up with the bloody water after Bruce fought the alligator? That's one for the "How did THAT get by the censors" thread!

[HarleyFan#1]

Originally posted by SirLemming
The new Scarecrow looks WAY more threatening than the old one. I also think Jeffrey Combs is a wonderful actor (especially as Weyoun in Deep Space Nine). Did the guy who used to voice Scarecrow die or something? I'm sorry if I'm getting it wrong. I feel like some Batman-related voice actor died... was him ?

I think the person who died was the voice of the Mad Hatter. I heard it from someone on the boards.

[The Penguin]

"Fear is the glue that holds society together—it's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power." - The Scarecrow, Never Fear

I really like the style of BTAS, but the more I see TNBA the more I like this overall style. There are a couple character redesigns I haven't really cared for, but I'm liking this. :)

I felt this was a great episode, but looking back it seemed awfully rushed. Everything fit in nicely, but it wouldn't have hurt being a little longer, but I won't let the time issue hurt the rating.

It was a bit much that Bruce didn't go with more a disguise, but at the same time the voice he did after encountering Scarecrow was cool.

I like the new look of The Scarecrow. The new voice is pretty good too. I miss the old one of course, anything other than the original just doesn't seem right.

Tim is really a lot of fun. I enjoyed his interaction with Bruce in the office. The young Robin was willing to stand up to Batman, when he knew his mentor was out of line. Heck, the boy almost captured the Scarecrow! Now that's saying something. I still think it's impressive how well Tim handles that batarang. :cool:

The out of control, fearless Batman was an interesting look at Bruce's even darker side. As I touched on above, it took guts for Robin to tie him up like that. Batman screaming "Untie me!!" as his protégé left him behind was a very powerful moment.

"A little fear is a good thing."

[Bleu Unicorn]

Out of the character re-designs, Scarecrow has always been one of my favorites. He really is the Scarecrow in this design, and it is just a great improvement over his BTAS look.

Anyway, this is an excellent episode. Again, another favorite of mine. A very good example of Bats almost loosing it here. Especially the interrogation scene where he lets the thug just drop and Robin has to save him. Pretty strong little kid, eh?

I love the scene when Batman gets tied up and out of the shadows walks Robin. It's pretty obvious that it will be him, but that added touch of him walking out of the shadows is really nice. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision for the young Robin to make, but in the end it was the right one. And I'm sure it was a major ego bite for Bruce to admit that at the end. And vastily more appreciated by Tim because of it.

The idea of having anit-fear toxin is pretty neat. Scarecrow is usually always instilling fear, not taking it away. But in the end it was way more scarey this way, and the unique approach is really a cool idea. An entire town of people with no fear is really a very frightening thing -- especially if they all reacted like Batman did!

[Marc]

My second favorite Batman episode next to "Heart of Ice".

I loved the Scarecrows' new design, and I thought this episode had great development of Bruce and Tim's relationship.

Best line:

Bad guy: "If I were you, I wouldn't move."
Batman: "You're not me."

Classic example of why Kevin Conroy IS Batman.

[katfairy]

Now this is something like. I only gave it four and a half stars because of a few nitpicky complaints, but if I could have given it four and nine-tenths stars, I would have.

Yes, I did look at Bruce's disguise and think "huh?". I really had a hard time believing he would disguise himself so poorly his mustache would come off in the water. I'm an actress (not professionally, unfortunately) and have some experience with that sort of thing, and believe me, even the weakest adhesive doesn't come off that easily. And if it had been rubbed off against the croc's hide, there should have been some pretty serious abrasions on Bruce's face.

However , I loved the Scarecrow's new look (good and creepy), and the idea of a city without fear is (dare I say it? Of course I do) damn scary. And poor Robin, having to take on Batman like that. He did it, too, and it was well done and quite believable. I honestly don't think Dick would have been able to do that, and I'm certain that he'd have fallen for Batman's "but I'm feeling much better now..." bit. Granted, Dick would have found another way to handle it (I'm not even hinting that he was incompetent, I swear!), but Tim is a lot more cynical than Dick was at that age.

And is it just me lusting over inkblots again (as my roommate says whenever I say a cartoon character is cute), or did Bruce look really hot when he got back to the manor after his bout with the gator/croc/whatever?

[Thundercleese]

I'm pretty sure that the canisters were still o nthe train when it crashed, that should have set off the gas

[TheScarecrow]

Man, this episode was creepy.

A darker scary makeover for The Scarecrow is an awesome thing.

Good thing Bruce is Batman, because a normal man under the effects of the "no fear" gas going face to face with an alligator would've been deader then Miria Carry's prospects of a successful movie career after Glitter. Seeing a Batman without the fear of consequences for murder was scary and Tim did the right thing. Good job Tim! :D

All and all, this episode was perfect for the Halloween season.

****1/2

[DKstormyknight]

Originally posted by TheScarecrow
Good thing Bruce is Batman, because a normal man under the effects of the "no fear" gas going face to face with an alligator would've been deader then Miria Carry's prospects of a successful movie career after Glitter.


I loved that part! :D It was nice to see Scarecrow with his new look, very creepy! :) I like the story, and Overall thought it was a good episode!


:cool:

[TimTwoFace]

Yeah, I remember when I first saw the blood there, I was like, "Bruce didn't...did he?" That scene was probably the most chilling sequence in the whole episode.

-Tim
(Welcome to the food chain.)

[Cere]

I have nothing more to say that hasn't already been said. This was one of my favorite episodes, and one of the few I remember clearly from those years ago.

[unknown hero]

the introduction to the new scarecrow design was a great one, and an all around good episode. it was an interesting twist of things, having batman more extreme than usual

[The Penguin]

Tonight at 1 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs The New Batman Adventures episode, Never Fear.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

[oranthal]

Tonight at 1 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs The New Batman Adventures episode, Never Fear.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

I was rewatching MotP before "Never Fear" aired and there is certainly a huge difference in tone from each other. "Never Fear" is a great episode, but it doesn't hold candle to MotP. MotP is not a glorified episode as some people would probably say; it is much more than that.

Is it really showing "Never Fear" again next week?

[randomguy]

Man, what great episode. The concept is all kinds of awesome, the animation is excellent (would that TMS would be in charge of all the animated DCU stuff... especially Justice League), and the Scarecrow's redesign rules. Good stuff.

[Jedigreedo]

Pretty fun episode, one of the best parts is Bruce taking down those crocs (maybe he knew they were friends of Killer ;)). The Batwing parts are great, though I would've loved to have seen him do that in the BTAS Batwing! :D

Anyone else think something was cut from the roof scene? He starts slowly saying "Untie me you little.." then quickly says "UNTIE ME!" Sounded to me like something was cut out of the first part and that's why it quickly jumped to the second part.

[Batgirl]

And is it just me lusting over inkblots again (as my roommate says whenever I say a cartoon character is cute), or did Bruce look really hot when he got back to the manor after his bout with the gator/croc/whatever?

I thought he looked pretty fine.... But that's just me. I always thought Dick was cuter, but I liked Bruce with the rugged look. :)

[Anarky]

If another Batman film is ever produced, beit animated or live-action, I hope they use the "hanging corpse" Scarecrow.

I'd still like to see a Knightfall-esque Scarecrow DTV animated feature:
Scarecrow enlists the talents of The Mad Hatter (voiced by John Lithgow perhaps) and the Firefly to throw Gotham City into a total panic. Firefly sets the town ablaze, while the Mad Hatter deploys an army of Scarecrow clones to strategically release Crane's chemicals. Meanwhile, the Scarecrow uses the media (television, radio, print, internet, wetc...) to spread his gospel across fair Gotham. His goal: to be deified as the God of Fear.
The Gotham Knight counter w/ their own 3-pronged attack: Batgirl & Robin look to stop Firefly, Nightwing takes on the Hatter, while the Bat goes after the 'Crow. It's a story big enough to justify the large cast and would likely run about 80/90 minutes. I don't know about you guys but 70 minutes just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

[Sable Phoenix]

One thing that did shock me was the blood in the water during the alligator sequence. I was shocked for two reasons. One - the network actually allowed that. Second - the fact that Batman could so quickly kill here. It was both frightening and stunning.

The fact that he SURVIVED fighting a gator isn't so surprising... gators have tremendous strength in the muscles that close thier jaws, but the muscles that open their jaws are so weak that they can easily be held together by the hands of a strong man (a fact exploited in "alligator wrestling" -- all that thrashing around is really the gator trying to get away). The surprising thing is that, with his bare hands, Bruce actually killed an alligator, and on top of that, inflicted enough damage that its blood came bubbling to the surface of the water. I still haven't figured out exactly what he did to it under the water, unless he had a spare Bat-knife in his boot. He must have gone for the eyes, or something.

[The Penguin]

Cartoon Network is airing this episode again right now, so if you missed it last week, check it out.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

[Bats2007]

Question: Was the guy Bruce was pretending to be voiced by Conroy? Well, it must have been but it was pretty good, I would have never guessed it was Bruce.

[oranthal]

Cartoon Network is airing this episode again right now, so if you missed it last week, check it out.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

Good 'ol Cartoon Network, showing the same episode two weeks in a row. One that can be said about CN's schedule is that it isn't predictable. It keeps the audience on the edge of their seats.

[randomguy]

Well, if nothing else, I missed the Batplane sequence last week and was able to catch it this time. And geez, what great animation that is. TMS does Batman better than anybody else.

[The Penguin]

Tonight at 12 midnight ET, Boomerang aired The New Batman Adventures episode, Never Fear. This episode will be available on DVD this winter. The current release date for Batman: The Animated Series, Vol. 4 - From The New Batman Adventures is December 6.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #091 - Never Fear
Original Airdate - November 1st, 1997.

The Scarecrow is back with a fiendishly evil new look and a new talent, the ability to take away people's fears rather than manipulating them.

Comments?

[Silly McGooses]

I always enjoyed this episode, nothing phenomenal but fun enough, I slightly prefer the 2nd version of Scarecrow best.

[Batman Fan]

I got a chance to check this one out on Boomerang, haven't been posting in these talkbacks because I don't remember them to well, but I was really impressed with this one, it's the first TNBA I've seen in years. I was surprised with the darkness and mood of this episode, it felt a lot like B:TAS.

The opening scene was great, with the guy swinging through Gotham, I loved the scenery drawings while he was swinging, they looked very nice. Boy, Batman and Robin sure used a lot batgrapples in that one scene. The animation was spectacular, for TNBA that is, I always remembered that the animation wasn't all that great for some, but it was good here with all the character movements, and in actions scenes such as Batman fighting those thugs on the train. I also realized how much more Batman hit the thugs in TNBA, usually a punch or two could knock most people out, but he completely wailed on that one guy, and tossed the other ones out the window.

Loved the Scarecrow, Jeffery Combs did a fantastic job making him really creepy to boost his frightning new look, I was espcially glad to see this episode after having listened to Comb's work with the Question on JLU. They definetly did a good job making Scarecrow seem fresh and original, by having him use gas to take away fear, and have a corrupt city of lunatics thinking they could do whatever they want would probably be worse than a city just terrified. I loved Scarecrow's speech about fear and it's power, you really got a sense for how obsessed he was with the power of fear.

Having Batman being affected by the gas was the highlight of the episode. I loved the scene where he beats the crocodiles, and storms off, and has the same look as he storms throught the mansion, he looked very pissed and super cool. The scene where he flying like a maniac was great, the animation was very good with the planes movements, and seeing a lot of Gotham through his little joy ride was a plus, as it was a very well drawn background, and having Robin freak out with Batman's flying was great as well. I loved Robin in this one, at some points he was a typical teenager, and at others, he was a determined little crimefighter, who held his moral ethics and perspectives very highly, and was brave enough to defy Batman and go after Scarecrow. Loved the scene where he chops through the handcuffs, and then says Ow.:D Batman's interrogation scene of that one guy was really scary. It was one of the best yet, as you could tell he had no intention of saving him with his line about death, and an out of control Batman was the scariest and most interesting thing about this episode. Kevin Conroy did a great job as Batman, performing his lines very straight foward, to match with Batman's attitude. Batman choking the Scarecrow was also a fabulous scene, and really had me on edge, I was so impressed by the level of shear violence they could get away with in this one, with lines about death and choking, and even blood, this is one of the most gruesome and darkest episodes ever. Also, we got to see Batman doing some detective work, which I think he didn't do much of in TNBA, and it was nice to see him disguised as Matches Malone again, so that was a plus. And good ol Robin came to Batman's rescue at the end.

Overall we get some great animation, a great plot and new look and voice for Scarecrow, we get some great characterization with Batman, and see how dark he really could be, and we get Robin in one of his finest's moments by taking charge and saving Batman.

*****

[JSmith]

This episode had great animation, but that's it. The story was nonsensical. The biggest stumbling block was how the gas affected Batman. With his fear removed, Batman tries to kill 2 people. Huh? Batman does not restrain from killing because he's afraid to take a life. He doesn't kill because he feels it's morally wrong. Pure garbage reasoning for why Bats attempts to kill Scarecrow at the end. And since when can Bats dodge bullets at point blank range? He's got 3 guys firing on him from a distance of about 7 feet and somehow he's twisting and dodging them. What?!?!? Just a really bad episode decorated beautifully with pretty animation. Batman will kill if his fear is removed? I don't think so.

[Silly McGooses]

Hmmm...I suppose you could also argue that batman was AFRAID of doing something morally wrong, not afraid of KILLING.

[Batman Fan]

I disagree JSmith, I mean, it wasn't so much that Batman fears killing itself, but he fears the consequences and what might happen to him if he does kill. By killing someone, he'd have violated everything he's fought against, and become what he's been fighting, leading him down an even darker path, and that would probably cause him to lose his sanity, he vowed to avenge his parent's and make sure nothing like what happened to him would happen to anyone else, and by killing, he would've broken that vow, and I think that is something he'd fear a lot, not only would that probably drive him over the edge, but he'd ultimately feel as if he portrayed his parent's and that's something I don't think he could live with. As Alfred points out in MOTP, he always feared that Bruce would go to far in his vendetta against crime, and I think Bruce feels the same way as well. Plus, not only did the gas make him fear what I've pointed out above, but it made him carefree and unafraid of the consequences of his actions and he was oblivious to everything except stopping the Scarecrow, therefore he's gone against another of his vows, by protecting and caring for the people who can't defend themselves and valuing human life.

[JSmith]

It isn't Bruce who fears that he'll go down a dark path and become that which he fights, it's Alfred. Even given what you say is true, the removal of all fear and inhibitions would never make him kill. Personally, I do not drink coffee, smoke cigarettes or do heroine. I believe those things are wrong. It has nothing to do with fear of consequences or risks to my health. If you take away all my fear and inhibitions, I would still never do any of the things mentioned. It goes to the core of one's morals, not to fear. Just as you cannot make someone do something they would not normally do under hypnosis, there is no way the fear-removing gas would make Bruce kill. Just doesn't work. Very pretty animation, but the story was lackluster. Still, it was very interesting that they took story ideas from this episode and Dreams in Darkness to use in Batman Begins.

[Batman Fan]

Valid points, but this isn't you we are talking about, this is Batman, the cornucopia of psychological problems and issues. I mean, I don't think anyone fears coffee or smoking, but killing somebody, yeah. Look at it this way, if for some reason you ended up killing somebody, whether willingly or not, wouldn't you be scared, I know I would be terrified. We aren't talking about drinking coffee or smoking, those are minor things, but taking a human life, that's some heavy stuff. Maybe Batman doesn't fear going to far in darkness, but I think he fears defying the vow he made to his parent's, the reason he became Batman in the first place, the reason he does what he does, I mean, can you think of anything else he fears. If he goes against that vow he's made to his parent's to protect Gotham from criminals, and to value all human life to avenge there deaths, and does so by killing someone, I'd think he'd loose sanity, the last thing he wants to do is dissapoint and betray his parent's. Remember Nothing To Fear, when Bruce has hallucinations that he's disgraced the family name and has shamed his father. That's what he fears, and if he kills somebody, he's gone against that vow to his parents. If you take away that wall (fear) which keeps him in check, and makes sure he doesn't take that extra step into killing, than he'll end up doing so, because, if he doesn't fear the consequences of his actions, or breaking his vow, then he'd just end up killing all his foes, to get rid of them permnantly so he won't have to deal with them. But that's not what he does, and by taking away that which holds him back, then eventually, he'll end up taking that step, because fear keeps us in check, it keeps us from taking to big of risks, where without fear, we'd be too logical and one-sided to see anything but our motives and what we believe and want to do. If Batman doesn't have fear to hold him back, he'll take his mission too the next stage, by protecting the innocent, and kill the people who harm them, because he won't fear the consequences of defying the morality of killing someone, if you take away fear, people won't think morally, they'll think too logically, because nothing can hold them back, and they'll do what they want too. Morality are the things that we believe in, what we think is right, and usually a lot of our moral views revolve around the justice system and the law. By taking away fear, you can take away morality because nothing is left to hold you back from doing what you think is right or wrong, you'll end up doing it because you have no fear of the consequences of what your about to do.

[ROBOTRON]

4 1/2 stars

OMG, best Scarecrow design ever!!!

I was not a fan of the old Scarecrow costume...I know it was closer to the comic, but it was like, "Big Deal". I see it, I think "Wizard or OZ".

But Dang, this design kicks butt and takes numbers...the story was no slouch either. Good to the last drop of the train going into the hole. Also another great Tim Drake portayal...he has to save Batman from himself.

EXCELLENT.:cool:

[Tom Servo]

My wife has kept up with most of the episodes throughout these sets and she made a comment last night in watching "Never Fear" that they took the redesign of Scarecrow too far. We both love Jeffrey Combs and even those this was a good installment, it is almost hard to believe there is an actual person somewhere inside Scarecrow. It is a fine, creepy design but perhaps is a bit TOO creepy for Batman - what do you think? Otherwise, I enjoyed the reverse plan of taking away fear as opposed to the old plans of Scarecrow's to highlight people's fear. Batman losing was fear was nicely done, highlighted by his reckless flying and truly taking those thugs to task. The TNBA really did get more brutal in some ways, as the fights are quite fierce and kinetic. Robin's tieing up of Batman worked, with some great underscoring of these scenes.

[Revelator]

Here's a little secret: all the bullcrap people keep spouting about how TNBA was supposedly lighter than BTAS is just that. Any season that includes Over the Edge, Never Fear, Growing Pains and Mad Love is more than a match for the grimmest of BTAS.
As for Never Fear: if we wished to be specific, what the Scarecrow's gas seems to take away is fear of consequences, so that Batman can let Scarecrow's thug dangle from the window and not care what happens next. If Batman fears killing, it's because he fears what he might turn into if he crossed the line.
I don't think Batman has ever been sleazier--of if Conroy has given a sleazier performance--than when he's trying to talk Robin into untying the ropes. The fake calm, the patronizing divulging of everything he thinks Robin wants to hear, the calculated skullduggery--on a second or third viewing, you come closer to hating Batman for this than for anything else he's ever done.
And yes, let us revel in the glory of outsourcing preproduction to TMS. Their episodes are more than a match for the best of BTAS.

[Maxie Zeus]

http://anbat.toonzone.net/galleries/nf/extras/jeh.jpg

J. Edgar Hoover works for the Scarecrow? That's interesting ...

[Link]

This episode had great animation, but that's it. The story was nonsensical. The biggest stumbling block was how the gas affected Batman. With his fear removed, Batman tries to kill 2 people. Huh? Batman does not restrain from killing because he's afraid to take a life. He doesn't kill because he feels it's morally wrong. Pure garbage reasoning for why Bats attempts to kill Scarecrow at the end. And since when can Bats dodge bullets at point blank range? He's got 3 guys firing on him from a distance of about 7 feet and somehow he's twisting and dodging them. What?!?!? Just a really bad episode decorated beautifully with pretty animation. Batman will kill if his fear is removed? I don't think so. ...The gas that removed his fear WAS still in him at that time. When he tried to kill Scarecrow and the guy, it was still in him. That's why he tried to kill them. That gas made Batman not afraid of anything, even killing.

[Caswin]

First, I do have one problem with this episode. Though I don't read them personally, I hear many complaints from comic fans about how Batman in the comics, these days, is practically emotionless and blatantly superhuman. In Never Fear, he displays both of these qualities. There's a valid reason for the emotion thing, of course, but some of those falling scenes at the beginning, not to mention Bruce (not even with his utility belt) single-handedly killing two crocodiles? A bit hard to swallow.

But the praise this episode gets certainly isn't undeserved. Scarecrow was truly and genuinely creepy for the first time in the series. I love his theme music, not to mention all the times he's shadowed, and interestingly, we learn he's a crack shot; who else could nail Batman in the chest with a gun at all, let alone with a gas canister from who knows how far away?

My favorite moment, however, was at the end of the second act: Batman, having seemingly left a henchman to his doom, starts to leave - and gets tied up by Robin. Half fanboy moment, half sheer coolness.

4/5

[Alex Weitzman]

http://anbat.toonzone.net/galleries/nf/extras/jeh.jpg

J. Edgar Hoover works for the Scarecrow? That's interesting ...

Gee...

[Anwar]

Anyone notice that one of the henchmen on the train is also voiced by Jeffrey Combs, but he has a (fake) German accent?

[Wonderwall]

One of my fav Batman episodes, its even in my top 10 episodes from TAS to TNBA. The only episodes I like better from the New Adventures are Growing Pains, Ultimate Thrill and Mad Love. But this one is gorgeous to look at and the performances are great from everyone. And its filled with cool scenes, the batjet scene, the run in at the scarecrow's hideout, the scarecrow in all his scenes. I also like this line.
"The canisters are in here(opens the safe and its empty )."" Here today, gone tonight.( Batman starts walking and the goons pull out guns ) I wouldnt take another step if I were you.""You're not me." - One of Kevin's best lines ever imo. 5 stars.

[Cortez2301]

Really good episode.The main highlight Scarecrow's new look.Really one of the best changes in the revamping of the characters in TNBA.

[Aldrius]

Here's a little secret: all the bullcrap people keep spouting about how TNBA was supposedly lighter than BTAS is just that. Any season that includes Over the Edge, Never Fear, Growing Pains and Mad Love is more than a match for the grimmest of BTAS.

It WAS lighter. It may have had some spooky stuff, and some thrills and chilling imagery. But in terms of atmosphere and mood, even those episodes you mentioned don't come close to ANYTHING B:TAS had (worst or best)... it all comes down to pacing, and how the backgrounds are drawn and how everything is shadowed, and what characters are used... (And arguably, B:TAS' atmosphere and pacing make it slow and difficult to watch... it's all a matter of taste and opinion.)

Plus the show WAS literally lighter. :P I mean, look at the elevator shaft in Read my Lips... that thing was, as Bruce put it in the DVD commentary... Black on Black. Which is... arguably a bad thing... but I like it... and it's my opinion I'm expressing... so there.

As for the episode, it was simply awesome. Jefferey Combs has the creepiest voice ever... and Batman acting like Frank Miller Batman is both funny and chilling at the same time.

I give it 4/5.

[Revelator]

It WAS lighter. It may have had some spooky stuff, and some thrills and chilling imagery. But in terms of atmosphere and mood, even those episodes you mentioned don't come close to ANYTHING B:TAS had (worst or best)...

Spooky stuff, thrills and chilling imagery ARE aspects of atmosphere and mood. They are integral to both. The episodes I mentioned not only come close to EVERYTHING BTAS had, but they often surpass it. There isn't a single episode of BTAS as nightmarish, doomed and disaster-laden, like the best film noir, as Over the Edge. Similarly, the sensation of moral vertigo and alienation and entrapment were rarely better conveyed in Never Fear, Growing Pains and Mad Love. In terms of atmosphere and mood, these epsiodes have a nightmarish, grim intensity that BTAS rarely equalled.


it all comes down to pacing, and how the backgrounds are drawn and how everything is shadowed, and what characters are used... (And arguably, B:TAS' atmosphere and pacing make it slow and difficult to watch...

Let's not overflatter BTAS with an art-film cachet it doesn't deserve. The show's not Antonioni--it's not that difficult or slow. It's slowness is often at odds with the stories (tragedy and noir aren't neccesarily snail-paced, and draggy pacing is precisely that), and the visual atmosphere is often more suffocating and obvious than effective (black on black backgrounds arguably gave the show a visual monotony that ultimately dampens its drama--something like Over the Edge benefits from a wilder, more ultimately expressionistic--if more subtly expressionistic--palate). Episodes like "It's Never Too Late" are probably impressive to people who've heard a lot about old crime dramas and film noir but haven't watched that much of it, and are impressed when a show pastiches those genres, even when the episode's pacing and obviousness are no better than those of an old dull studio programmer.

[Aldrius]

... I wrote a well thought out polite responce to yours, and the forum hate it. And I can't remember what it it said, and now I'm tired and cranky... so uh... yeah. I'm just going to sum up what it said in dot-jot form.

*Calling someone's opinion bullcrap is rude.
*Me talking about the show LITTERALLY being dark is just me being goofy and a play on taking things at face value for humour's sake.
*Despite that, I find the limited colour pallette, the cel dirt, all the stuff that the show is criticised for to be very appealing. It gives it that 'from another time' feel that TNBA lacks.
*Perchance to Dream, Mad as a Hatter, It's Never Too Late, and Beware the Grey Ghost and Heart of Steel can go blow for blow with the episodes you mentioned the episodes you mentioned. I'll go into detail later.
*Noir is a film genre like any other, it has range and depth. Not all noir is fast-paced and aggressive. Plus, Batman is a constant mystery story... mystery is generally very slow-paced, and gives the audience time to reflect on revealations.

Gonna flesh this thing out later... yeah.

[Revelator]

Calling someone's opinion bullcrap is rude.
So is attributing statements to me that I didn't make. I don't think that much of your opinion, but I didn't call it bullcrap.


Perchance to Dream, Mad as a Hatter, It's Never Too Late, and Beware the Grey Ghost and Heart of Steel can go blow for blow with the episodes you mentioned the episodes you mentioned. I'll go into detail later.
In what way? Storywise? PtD suffers because the elder Waynes aren't real characters. It's Never Too Late is a gangster film pastiche that's too obvious. Heart of Steel suffers from a dopey sci-fi plot and dull villains. Hatter is often lovely, but doesn't have many surprises.
Artwise, the building of mood and atmosphere is often hampered by substandard animation. Perchance To Dream has very weak animation and is only redeemed by the backgrounds. Hatter's animation is similarly flaccid. Grey Ghost and Too Late succeed as noir/gangster film homages, but that's a one-note kind of success.


Noir is a film genre like any other, it has range and depth. Not all noir is fast-paced and aggressive.

Nor is all noir sluggish and slow-boiling. Stuff has to happen, and in noir it's usually violent. And compared to drawing-room mysteries, noir is often quite aggressive and nasty.



Plus, Batman is a constant mystery story... mystery is generally very slow-paced, and gives the audience time to reflect on revealations.
It's a superhero cartoon, and quite often not a mystery story but combination of various genres. It doesn't always feature mysteries, and those mysteries are often so simple that Sherlock Holmes could solve them in his sleep. If the mystery isn't much of a mystery to begin with, having it slowly unfold isn't a virtue, especially since lots of mystery stories aren't slow-paced in the first place--noirs often throw in bits of violence just to keep the pace up and keep the audience in suspense. The issue is academic anyway--there are several of your beloved slow contemplative moments in episodes like Growing Pains, and even Over the Edge.

[Aldrius]

So is attributing statements to me that I didn't make. I don't think that much of your opinion, but I didn't call it bullcrap.

Here:


Here's a little secret: all the bullcrap people keep spouting about how TNBA was supposedly lighter than BTAS is just that. Any season that includes Over the Edge, Never Fear, Growing Pains and Mad Love is more than a match for the grimmest of BTAS.

You basically said: Anyone who thinks that TNBA is lighter has a bullcrap opinion. *Shrug* That's the only reason I even responded to what you said.

And granted, I don't think much of your opinion, either. So eh. World keeps spinning.

I'm not responding to anything else until I edit my last post and go into why each of the episodes I mentioned rock.

EDIT: ... Except this.



The issue is academic anyway--there are several of your beloved slow contemplative moments in episodes like Growing Pains, and even Over the Edge.


I'm talking about over-all pacing. Sure, Over the Edge may have Bruce sitting in his office waiting away the hours, but the episode itself bounces around like a rubber-band ball.

[Revelator]

You basically said: Anyone who thinks that TNBA is lighter has a bullcrap opinion. *Shrug* That's the only reason I even responded to what you said.
Heh. You're right. I thought you were responding to something I'd said in my response to your response. You're also right--I do think that the "TNBA is lighter than BTAS argument" is basically bullcrap--i.e., a canard, a piece of accepted wisdom that isn't wisdom, but just widely repeated and not validated by convincing evidence.


And granted, I don't think much of your opinion, either. So eh. World keeps spinning.
Then at least our feelings are mutual. As for rudeness, one is entitled to have opinions about opions, and it would be pollyannish to expect them all to be positive.


I'm talking about over-all pacing. Sure, Over the Edge may have Bruce sitting in his office waiting away the hours, but the episode itself bounces around like a rubber-band ball.
Pacing is pacing. You can't put aside a scene and say "But aside from that the pacing is fast." The fact is that much of the episode is fast-paced, but it also slows down to let the characters ponder the disasters they're facing. The epiode doesn't bounce around a rubber-band-ball--its pacing, as you admit, is more variable than that. It provides moments of quiet and contemplation, and therefore its pacing can't be talked about without acknowledging them, especially since they were obviously inserted in the episode with an eye toward pacing.

[Aldrius]

Heh. You're right. I thought you were responding to something I'd said in my response to your response. You're also right--I do think that the "TNBA is lighter than BTAS argument" is basically bullcrap--i.e., a canard, a piece of accepted wisdom that isn't wisdom, but just widely repeated and not validated by convincing evidence.

All right. Then maybe I'll validate it for you. ;P (Okay, likely not.)

Starting with the episodes I mentioned, and why they're awesome:

Perchance to Dream: This is a great insight into Bruce's mind. It shows that even when Bruce has everything he wants, the monster inside of him needs justice. As for his parents not being characters... the point isn't his parents living. It's about how he never suffered their loss. He was never an 8 year old kid who lost his parents, who swore to do something about it. In fact, his parents and him being boring characters is part of the point. Tragedy is part of life, and it's not something that can just be undone.

It's Never Too Late is an anylisis of human nature on top of the gangster stuff. About how Batman's war on crime isn't a pointless one. He's not just patching the system while all his masked criminals break out of Arkham every three minutes. In this one, Batman actually helps a criminal to see the err of his ways, and find a way to over-come his own evil. (Even when Artie refuses to admit to what's happened to him.) Artie is like all of us, we refuse to see ourselves as wrong or evil. And when he'll admit to it, he thinks that he can make up for it on his own. Without having to face the judge... without having to own up to it... without having to let anyone else know about what was happening to him.

Beware the Grey Ghost shows that even a hero like Batman had someone who inspired him. That being a fan, and loving what a fictional character stood for or symbolises can be a good thing (In the case of Batman) or can be a bad thing (with the Toymaker). About how the hero in Batman subsequently inspires Simon Trent to become the hero he played on television.

Mad as a Hatter shows how we all just want a little respect. And how different people try different ways of getting that respect. Mad as a Hatter is all about that tragedy and how a brilliant man's life was ruined, all because of that need to belong, and feel appreciated. And when it all blows up in his face, he turns to the easiest person to blame for all of his problems.

As for animation. I like the feel of B:TAS' animation better. It's got this other timely feel that I really like. (I think more movies/shows need to actually take place in other time periods.)

Eh. We might have to just agree to disagree.

[Revelator]

All right. Then maybe I'll validate it for you. ;P (Okay, likely not.)
Probably not, since these episodes don't show BTAS as darker than TNBA, or TNBA as lighter than BTAS. Three are psychologically oriented, but that was an aspect of TNBA as well.


Perchance to Dream: This is a great insight into Bruce's mind. It shows that even when Bruce has everything he wants, the monster inside of him needs justice.

Not so much justice as the refusal to live a lie.


As for his parents not being characters... the point isn't his parents living. It's about how he never suffered their loss.

But the loss doesn't mean much if his parents are nothing but ciphers. You can't mourn over cardboard.


In fact, his parents and him being boring characters is part of the point. Tragedy is part of life, and it's not something that can just be undone.

If his dream life and parents are boring, then where's the tragedy? If being Batman and not having dull parents around is more enriching, why bother with any tragic elements? It's much less of a tragedy to throw aside the chance for a dull life with dull people.


It's Never Too Late is an anylisis of human nature on top of the gangster stuff. About how Batman's war on crime isn't a pointless one. He's not just patching the system while all his masked criminals break out of Arkham every three minutes.

Yeah, but was there ever much doubt, except in "I Am the Night" (and even then it seemed incongruous) that Batman's war wasn't pointless? And there's a limit to how far one can anaylze human nature when the natrues on display are cliches out of old films: the kindly priest and his wayward brother who finally sees the error of his ways, and so on...


Mad as a Hatter shows how we all just want a little respect. And how different people try different ways of getting that respect.

I thought it was about a creepy guy wanting to ask a girl out and doing despicable things in the process. Anyway, this discussion is starting to shade into debates over individual episodes rather than series of the show, so for the time being, disagreement is what we'll have to agree upon.

[Aldrius]

If his dream life and parents are boring, then where's the tragedy?

My point is that his tragedy actually bettered his life. Which is not explicitly mentioned, but is there in subtext. He may be mad about the loss of his parents. But look at his life WITH them. Alfred thinks he's a overly sensitive moron, Leslie talks to him like she would any other patient. There is no Robin. The point is, that his parents' death created all these other relationships with people, and bettered the lives of all the people around him. And all these points bleed into the rest of the series...

Without a Batman, is Superman as much of a cultural touching icon... because there's no Batman, is Superman less deticated to being the red blooded american that everyone can trust? (Martha: "I don't want you to turn out like that freak in Gotham.")


Not so much justice as the refusal to live a lie.

Well, his refusal to live a lie stems from what he felt when his parents were murdered. He couldn't do anything. He was helpless and he didn't like that. In his dream world he is helpless to do anything, because everything is just a fabrication.


Yeah, but was there ever much doubt, except in "I Am the Night" (and even then it seemed incongruous) that Batman's war wasn't pointless?

Who wouldn't doubt it? Every time he stops a criminal, 3 pop up in his place... Atleast, that's how I see it. Here, he actually DOES save a life. He actually does change the system. Cliche' or not.

Anyway, darker or not. I still like B:TAS more than TNBA.

[Shadowmask]

"Never Fear" is one of my favorite TNBA episodes, just below "Growing Pains" in my ranking.

When I first saw it as a kid, I thought that the new Scarecrow was neat, but that the episode was an excuse for a lame gimmick: let's do something about taking fear away, since we've already done three stories about fear poisons already.

After watching it on DVD as an older (and hopefully wiser) jaded college student, I realized that the point of the story isn't the gimmicky plot, but rather a psychological study. When Batman's fear is removed, it reveals a murderous, viciously retributive version of him that, like it or not, is a very real part of his psyche. The way I always saw it, Batman was afraid to kill not because he was scared of ending up in prison for it (certainly, if anyone can commit an unsolvable murder, it's he) but that he was scared of turning into the man who killed his parents. It's the old Nietzchean idea of when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you. Batman's greatest fear about the villains he confronts isn't the physical harm they might inflict upon him (in fact, it's arguable that Bruce Wayne has somewhat of a subconscious death wish anyway) but that he might become like them, perhaps without even realizing it.

Some people read the Scarecrow's drug in this episode as taking away inhibition, more than fear (and the Scarecrow helps this, with his marvelous line, "Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what keeps people from acting on their worst impulses. Fear is power."), but for Bruce Wayne, at least. the loss of inhibition is his greatest fear.

Of course, one thing my younger self and I still agree on is that the Scarecrow's redesign is glorious. Self-proclaimed "master of fear" or not, the B:TAS Scarecrow was never the least bit frightening, and his voice actor was full of histrionic non-menace, even for, well, a Saturday morning cartoon villain. But the new look is quite disturbing, and Combs' calm, vaguely sibilant whisper is orders of magnitude scarier than all the over-the-top rants in the world.

5 stars.

[Wolf Boy2]

... *Despite that, I find the limited colour pallette, the cel dirt, all the stuff that the show is criticised for to be very appealing. It gives it that 'from another time' feel that TNBA lacks.[quote]
True, but TNBA helps soften the transistion in Justice League's bright, digital ultra-modern style. TNBA was still traditional ink and paint animation, but with more colors, less dirt and modernized designs. Imagine how jarring JL would be if there had never been TNBA?

[quote=Aldrius]*Perchance to Dream, Mad as a Hatter, It's Never Too Late, and Beware the Grey Ghost and Heart of Steel can go blow for blow with the episodes you mentioned the episodes you mentioned.
I hope you meant to say Heart of Ice. Because heart of steel is a fluffy science fiction rip-off, whose only redeeming quality is the interaction between Jim and Barbara Gordon.

As for Mad as a Hatter, it is not noir. It's a re-tread of the old "jilted lover" storyline, and it never actually explains why Jervis Tetch latches onto the Mad Hatter as a source of schtick.


*Noir is a film genre like any other, it has range and depth. Not all noir is fast-paced and aggressive. Plus, Batman is a constant mystery story... mystery is generally very slow-paced, and gives the audience time to reflect on revealations.
Batman is a cartoon, though. In live action, you can get away with not having the characters move around a lot. But in a cartoon, the "standing and talking" type scenes feel out of place.


First, I do have one problem with this episode. Though I don't read them personally, I hear many complaints from comic fans about how Batman in the comics, these days, is practically emotionless and blatantly superhuman. In Never Fear, he displays both of these qualities. There's a valid reason for the emotion thing, of course, but some of those falling scenes at the beginning, not to mention Bruce (not even with his utility belt) single-handedly killing two crocodiles? A bit hard to swallow
Actually, the crocs killed each other. All he did was be agile and avoid their jaws. He might not have even done it on purpose.

[Revelator]

My point is that his tragedy actually bettered his life. Which is not explicitly mentioned, but is there in subtext. He may be mad about the loss of his parents. But look at his life WITH them. Alfred thinks he's a overly sensitive moron, Leslie talks to him like she would any other patient. There is no Robin. The point is, that his parents' death created all these other relationships with people, and bettered the lives of all the people around him.
Whether his parents' death really did him far more good isn't really the issue, in terms of evulating the episode as a drama. As a drama the episode is weakened because Bruce's parents aren't worth living or dying for. So his rejection of Hatter's dream world comes easier, because he can just say "It's all a lie," and since the lie isn't very enticing in the first place, there's little sense of tragedy, whereas the much superior "For the Man Who Has Everything" shows that rejecting a dream life can feel like cutting off one's arm. Bruce's dream life isn't very alluring to the viewer. And the episode is borderline offensive in suggesting that if his parents hadn't died Bruce would have ended up just another bored playboy. Part of what makes Mask of the Phantasm special is that it suggests the tragedy involved in passing up civilian life and becoming Batman instead. It suggests that Bruce could have lead a happy, fulfilled life without Batman, whereas "Perchance" mocks that idea, to its own detriment as a drama. Yes, Bruce benefits far more people as Batman than he ever would as just Bruce Wayne. But that seems obvious to me.


Well, his refusal to live a lie stems from what he felt when his parents were murdered. He couldn't do anything. He was helpless and he didn't like that. In his dream world he is helpless to do anything, because everything is just a fabrication.
In his dream world he's able to do nearly anything. The problem isn't about power, but rather about living the most truthful life possible.


Who wouldn't doubt it?
Not Batman apparently, except in "I Am the Night," where his doubt was contrived to fit the plot. Batman's saved countless lives and foiled countless criminals who'd otherwise be running rampant. And in TNBA Batman reforms the Ventriloquist and Conner, so it's not as if he gave up on saving crooks from crime.


He actually does change the system. Cliche' or not.
It's not clear that Batman made much of a change to the system, aside from giving Rupert Thorne dominance over a formerly divided underworld, which I'm sure Thorne is grateful for. Batman lives in a stasis world. If he truly changed the system, the state of equilibrium that his adventures take place would be thrown out of whack. He cam't be too effective in fighting crime, or else there'd be little for him to do. And he can't be ineffective either. Stromwell was a crime boss who appeared about twice and was never a huge threat. In terms of the world presented in BTAS, Batman's system changing actually didn't do much. Now if he'd reformed Thorne and elimnated mob rule from Gotham, that would be different, since Thorne was always depicted as the big mob boss in Btas's story world. Not that I'd want to see Thorne reformed--part of our pleasure in Batman is that there always have to be powerful bosses and criminals around. Batman can never really change the equilibrium.

[Wolf Boy2]

Keep in mind though, had Bruce's parents never died, he wouldn't know to be unhappy with his mundane life. He was only unhappy because he remembered being Batman.

Also, Batman existed, but it wasn't him. That was a kick in the balls that wouldn't have happned in real life.

Hatter said he was trying to make Batman happy, but somehow I never believed him. When I was a child, I tried to microwave popcorn and I set the kitchen on fire. When my mother came in and put out the flames (w00t fire extinguishers!), I said, "The popcorn was a surprise for you, Mommy!"

Of course, I had no real intention of sharing the popcorn with her. But saying so made my crime seem less grave. In other words, it was a cop-out. I think the Hatter was doing the same thing to Bruce. He didn't want to give Batman an ideal life. And why wouldn't he just kill Batman, if he wanted him out of the way? I mean, Bruce would've died anyway without food and water.

No, his "dream" was clearly designed to torture Bruce. Had the dream really been utopian, like the dream in "For the Man Who Has Everything", than Bruce would've had no memory of being Batman anymore than Kal-El had memory of being Superman.

Would Superman have been happy with a normal human life on Krypton, if he remembered being the Savior of Earth? I don't think so.

[Aldrius]

Whether his parents' death really did him far more good isn't really the issue, in terms of evulating the episode as a drama. As a drama the episode is weakened because Bruce's parents aren't worth living or dying for. So his rejection of Hatter's dream world comes easier, because he can just say "It's all a lie," and since the lie isn't very enticing in the first place, there's little sense of tragedy, whereas the much superior "For the Man Who Has Everything" shows that rejecting a dream life can feel like cutting off one's arm. Bruce's dream life isn't very alluring to the viewer. And the episode is borderline offensive in suggesting that if his parents hadn't died Bruce would have ended up just another bored playboy. Part of what makes Mask of the Phantasm special is that it suggests the tragedy involved in passing up civilian life and becoming Batman instead. It suggests that Bruce could have lead a happy, fulfilled life without Batman, whereas "Perchance" mocks that idea, to its own detriment as a drama. Yes, Bruce benefits far more people as Batman than he ever would as just Bruce Wayne. But that seems obvious to me.

but it doesn't mock the idea... his parents ARE alive. And they DO care about him (and he would care about them, if he actually knew them. That's one thing I DON'T like about the episode. That's in "Paging the Crime Doctor". He doesn't even attempt to get to know his mother and father). It may be a boring dull, exsistance. But it's one that he is clearly content to live in. (Note his behaviour prior to reading the newspaper) He's willing to give up everything to live in this perfect world... because he thinks that his tragedy never happened. He believes the nightmare to be over... but as soon as he finds out that it's all a dream. He knows that it's all fake, and that the nightmare isn't over, his tragedy did happen.


In his dream world he's able to do nearly anything. The problem isn't about power, but rather about living the most truthful life possible.

Well, that's up for interpretation. I still say he gave it all up, because he couldn't escape his fate. One thing that Phantasm does is show that he can never stop being Batman. Fate just won't let him. The bats coming out of the bat cave when he proposes to Andrea are symbolic of that.


It's not clear that Batman made much of a change to the system, aside from giving Rupert Thorne dominance over a formerly divided underworld, which I'm sure Thorne is grateful for. Batman lives in a stasis world. If he truly changed the system, the state of equilibrium that his adventures take place would be thrown out of whack. He cam't be too effective in fighting crime, or else there'd be little for him to do. And he can't be ineffective either. Stromwell was a crime boss who appeared about twice and was never a huge threat. In terms of the world presented in BTAS, Batman's system changing actually didn't do much. Now if he'd reformed Thorne and elimnated mob rule from Gotham, that would be different, since Thorne was always depicted as the big mob boss in Btas's story world. Not that I'd want to see Thorne reformed--part of our pleasure in Batman is that there always have to be powerful bosses and criminals around. Batman can never really change the equilibrium.

I don't know why I typed system... I meant Stromwell's life... and one less mob boss is one less mob boss. Instead of just locking up another criminal, he 'cured' someone. (Which he subsequently did in Double Talk, as you mentioned.)


I hope you meant to say Heart of Ice. Because heart of steel is a fluffy science fiction rip-off, whose only redeeming quality is the interaction between Jim and Barbara Gordon.

Heart of Steel's an excellent episode. It's suspenceful, interesting, and it's got that 1950's sci-fi movie edge. Well, I like it.

... and well, Heart of Ice has good animation, and some neat action sequences and neat bits... but as a story, I find Mr. Freeze uninteresting. I understand why he's so popular, he just doesn't 'click' with me. *Shrug*


As for Mad as a Hatter, it is not noir. It's a re-tread of the old "jilted lover" storyline, and it never actually explains why Jervis Tetch latches onto the Mad Hatter as a source of schtick.

Well, he's got a big Alice in Wonderland poster on his wall and he's constantly quoting the book. I'm going to have to say he's a Lewis Carol fan...

It wasn't just a jilted lover, though. He wanted to control everything in his life. Alice's rejection was just what sent him off the deep end. It was the 'last straw' so to speak.

[Revelator]

but it doesn't mock the idea... his parents ARE alive. And they DO care about him.. It may be a boring dull, exsistance. But it's one that he is clearly content to live in. (Note his behaviour prior to reading the newspaper)

But the idea is that Bruce could have lead a happy, fulfilled life without Batman, that if his parents never died, he wouldn't have settled for just a mundanely rich life. What we're shown of his life is happy to the extent that his parents have returned, but essentially unfulfilled--as we see when he visits the office and spends the day tapping pencils. He's a man without a vocation. What you read as later contentment I read as resignation and a determination to make the best out of what he has. But since this dream life doesn't capture the viewer's heart, Bruce's decision to leave isn't dramatically



Well, that's up for interpretation. I still say he gave it all up, because he couldn't escape his fate.

There isn't a fate in that dream world. Bu saying no to it Bruce made an existential decision.


I don't know why I typed system... I meant Stromwell's life... and one less mob boss is one less mob boss.

But the gesture doesn't count for much, since Stromwell was introduced basically to be cured. It's not as if Daggett or Thorne--two recurrent thorns in Batman's side--were reformed.

If we're going to carry on this discussion, we ought to do so in the new TNBA vs BTAS thread or in the Perchance to Dream talkback, since we've moved past discussing Never Fear.

[Cortez2301]

Is it just me or does anyone else think those crocodile that died were a little too big?

[Aldrius]

If we're going to carry on this discussion, we ought to do so in the new TNBA vs BTAS thread or in the Perchance to Dream talkback, since we've moved past discussing Never Fear.

Well, I had thought we'd agreed to disagree... but yeah. TNBA vs. B:TAS sounds fine.

[maczero]

Is it just me or does anyone else think those crocodile that died were a little too big?Ridiculously big. I think the largest species (salt water crocs) are just over 20 feet long.

I just chalk it up to cartoon exaggerations. It's ridiculous that Bruce could even kill a normal size croc, let alone two over-sized ones.

[DerekPowers]

I love this episode. Its one of the best TNBA episodes, imo. The animation is flawless, and the story is dark, and Scarecrow is awesome. This has some of the most memorable moments in TNBA, including, when the drugged Batman interrogates the henchman. That scene is so awesome. The crocodile scene is also classic. Also when Robin subdues Batman, and later when Batman strangles the Scarecrow.

I also always loved the little 'Bruce at work' subplot. Overall its one of the best with some of the best DCAU animation ever.

[dark knight acolyte]

Pin-point characterization, well-executed and pleasantly simple plot, and an "outside-of-the-box" approach for a Scarecrow episode: what happens when we lose fear? Answer: we lose our inhibitions.

And when Batman loses his inhibitions, it takes a steadfast person to keep things grounded until he regains his natural composure.

"You almost fooled me."


4 1/2 stars. Excellent.

[Joker1238]

They relly drop the ball here, I all ready mention I hate the new design of the Scarecrow.

But they also lost what the Scarecrow was about. He goal was never to take fear away. He amireds fear, studys it, test it, He cant get enoght of it. But here he just makes a new gas to take fear away?? Thats not how the Scarecrow works.
He would have never used a drug, because that would mostly take away the point of what he is about.

Dreams in Darkness, the Scarecrow wanted to gas Gotham to Study fear at a higher level. I dont see why the Scarecrow would just go against evey thing he stood for imo.
We seen plenty of the Scarecrow and should have a pretty good ideal how he ticks.

I almost shock that Batman didnt start pulling Adam West jokes here.

[DisneyBoy]

Wow...that's interesting! I just started developping an appreciation for this episode (thanks to the TMS work) and here's someone who clearly really didn't dig it.

I think Scarecrow's plot is still in keeping with his personality. It's not like we're talking about Poison Ivy suddenly trying to kill all plant-life. Jonathan Crane studies how fear affects people...the absense of fear would be just as interesting as an overdose. Besides, after all his tries to amp up people's fears, it would only make sense he'd try a different approach.

This is just another one of his tests.

[Joker1238]

That is relly what it is,

That is like Ivy trying to kill plant life or the Penguin starts robby shabby places pretty much.

[Wonderwall]

That is relly what it is,

That is like Ivy trying to kill plant life or the Penguin starts robby shabby places pretty much.

Not really as Crane is a scientist and he'd be a pretty bad one if he didn't study everything about fear, even the lack of fear. His plan is still under the fear banner. On another note I love this episode.

[Palin Dromos]

If I remember right, Scarecrow's full plan was to unleash the no-fear gas on the whole city and then either hold the city for ransom by offering a fear-inducing antidote (proving the value of fear)
or sell the antidote directly to the people for profit (proving that people will pay to be scared).
They were still testing the no-fear gas when Batman and Robin interfered.

I think a more apt analog would be Poison Ivy getting plants to stop producing oxygen or fruit and trying to prove her point that "Plants are under-valued and taken for granted" that way.

Either way I DO like the Scarecrow redesign, and the episode in general.

[Joker1238]

Half the time I was ecpected Scarecrow to say Brains, must eat Brains.

Like I said, I didnt like the new look.