Jerky turkies: cartoons that suck thread 1

[Matthew Hunter]

Here's a new and different idea. Every so often I'm going to post the title of a cartoon that I think would be unanimously considered awful, or a "turkey". Then, everyone who wants to can come in and vent their frustrations on it...attack anything about iy you don't like. Or, you can defend it and try to change others' minds about it.

Today, we start with last night's "Toon Extra", a little gem called:

Matinee Mouse (MGM, 1966) (Tom and Jerry)

It carves out an incoherent 'story' using about half a minute of linking footage by Tom Ray and the rest a bunch of unrelated clips of old Tom and Jerry cartoons. Credits Hanna and Barbera as directors, and doesn't even have the courage to list Jones as the producer.

Fire away, boys and girls!
-Matthew

[Jave]

Matinee Mouse, why is this cartoon so bad? :mad:

This short is what on TV today is called a 'clip show', although not the first of its kind in cartoon (and T&J) history, it clearly doesn't fill up the standards of what clip shows should be like. :(

The beggining is entirely reused footage from early Hanna/Barbera T&J cartoons, almost like they were trying to recreate the classic cartoons (either that, or they were hoping that audiences wouldn't tell it's reused stuff, yeah right :rolleyes: )

For some reason, Tom and Jerry called it a truce and decided to go see a movie together. The entire thing is about watching clips from the previous cartoons, and when one of the characters gets hurt on the screen, the other one laughs in the audience. This gag was already used in "Cruise Cat", ooooops... :p

At the end, Tom and Jerry start fighting again, and the Tom, Jerry and Butch that are on the screen stop what they are doing and watch the cat and mouse in the audience, that kind of joke doesn't go with the T&J universe, it just doesn't seem to fit... :(

The music does very little to help the cartoon from damnation, it seems to be made by an orchestra of no more than 4 people, possibly worst than those Format Films Roadrunner cartoons. :mad:

It's a known fact that clip shows need to meet certain standards in order to be liked by audiences. There has to be a good way to link the material (something that "Jerry's Diary", "Life with Tom" and "Smitten Kitten" all succeded at, they are all very good cartoons) but "Matinee Mouse" seems to just link material for no apparent reason (the first minutes seem to have no plot at all).

Except for a couple of laughs during the movie scenes, there is very little or nothing remarkable about this cartoon, so my grade is a (very very low) D.

[PorkyandDaffy]

All clip-show cartoons are completely lazy, in my opinion. What's the point of doing them?

[pudealee]

Originally posted by PorkyandDaffy
All clip-show cartoons are completely lazy, in my opinion. What's the point of doing them?

$$$ - Many times a production company was under contractual obligation to produce X number of toons within a given period. An easy way to make that happen was to produce a "clips" cartoon. The studio saved tons in production costs which went straight to their bottom line. It's all about money.

[Daniel P]

This cartoon is okay. Besides "Love Me, Love My Mouse" and "The Two Mousketeers" (yes, I HATE that one), this is probably the worst classic T&J cartoon though.

Interesting that Jones didn't credit himself on this short.

MY GRADE: 75 (D)

[The Dork Knight]

Nelly's Song (60's) - Pure bonnafide crap...

- Foley Is Good

[chuckamuck43]

I hate any Speedy Gonzales/Daffy Duck teaming.

[David Gerstein]

I hate Speedy and Daffy pairings in animation.
More recent pairings in print, with 1990s comic books and recent TTTP fanfic (!), come pretty darn close to getting it right. In truth, I'd never have thought the characters could actually work together until I saw the 1990s comics.

[Jeff Harris]

Wow. In the midst of Mr. Jones' recent passing, they talk about his good shorts, but judging by the looks of the board, he made a lot of stinkers.

Here's two more to add to the fire:

I Was a Teenage Thumb (WB, March 1963)
The Bear That Wasn't (MGM, 1966)

They are just . . . plain . . . terrible.

[Matthew Hunter]

Those are some good nominations. I will do them next time :D
-Matthew

[Billy]

Matinee Mouse Good Points :) - A great HBesque painful gag where Jerry traps Tom's feet in the pull out foot-rest on the cinema chair.
The final scene of the supposedly 1948 Tom/Jerry/Spike watching the 1966 Tom/Jerry is animated very well.
Tom's laugh. It's brilliant!
The shot of a Droopy poster in the lobby.

Matinee Mouse Bad Points :rolleyes: - The old footage of Tom running away from Spike in 'Love that Pup' at the start does not fit in, as half a second ago Tom was chasing Jerry- now he's looking backwards, terrified, still running in the same direction. Eh???
The new music for the scene with Spike, the meat and Jerry is nowhere near as good as the original, brilliant Scott Bradley arrangement.
Jerry causes the truce by beating up Tom off-screen. No explanation is given to how a small mouse beat up a cat.
Chuck's new Tom and Jerry style contrasts with Hanna Barbera's late 1940s/early 1950s style badly in some shots.

[Gossamer]

Originally posted by pudealee
$$$ - Many times a production company was under contractual obligation to produce X number of toons within a given period. An easy way to make that happen was to produce a "clips" cartoon. The studio saved tons in production costs which went straight to their bottom line. It's all about money.

It wasn't entirely about money. When you have a fixed budget and are contractually obligated to produce X cartoons per year, you have a couple of choices to work within budget and meet the contract: 1) cut production costs on ALL the contracted work and therebye reduce quality across the board or 2) you can "cheat" on 1-3 cartoons out of 20 or so that you're required to make by re-using old footage to save time and money in order to put that to other shorts to do them the way you want to do them. That's why they were called "cheaters" by the animation staff. Those cartoons helped make the better ones so good, because an extra day was freed up here and there and more money went to cartoon C instead of cartoon D. That's a tradeoff that's worth it to my way of thinking.

Robert Reynolds
Tucson AZ

[Daniel P]

I like the Bear That Wasn't!

I love that Droopy poster in Matinee Mouse.

You wanna know a BAD Jones toon? I'll tell ya: Angel Puss. This cartoon is stupid... I wouldn't expect something like THAT from Jones... The little black boy singing that song, DROWNING a cat, the whole thing seems really awful to me.

How come, on the Chuck Jones site, do they never mention his T&J's? Are they ashamed? They shouldn't be. Some of his shorts were great, like "The Cat Above and the Mouse Below". I also like some of his shorts that don't follow the regular formula, like the Space Trilogy, that miniature bulldog, and "The Mouse From H.U.N.G.E.R.".

[Jave]

Originally posted by dacp3
You wanna know a BAD Jones toon? I'll tell ya: Angel Puss. This cartoon is stupid... I wouldn't expect something like THAT from Jones... The little black boy singing that song, DROWNING a cat, the whole thing seems really awful to me.


I've always thought of "Angel Puss" of a good story done the wrong way. They could have used one of the regular characters instead of that little black kid, that way the cartoon would have not be considered politically incorrect and Chuck Jones' WB historial wouldn't have a cartoon missing. A pity...

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by chuckamuck43
I hate any Speedy Gonzales/Daffy Duck teaming.

Chuckamuck:

Not every Daffy/Speedy cartoon is a waste...

Some good titles:

Moby Duck (sorta a remake of 'CAnned Fued")
A Taste of Catnip
Snow Excuse
A Squeak in the Deep
Daffy's Diner

Have you seen these shorts?

[lislebartman]

Originally posted by dacp3
You wanna know a BAD Jones toon? I'll tell ya: Angel Puss. This cartoon is stupid... I wouldn't expect something like THAT from Jones... The little black boy singing that song, DROWNING a cat, the whole thing seems really awful to me.

Let's lay blame where it's due -- the story was by Lou Lilly, whose career @ Warners was very short-lived. It's not a great story, but Jones did his best, what with the nice backgrounds and the animation was good...

Maybe it was this cartoon that forced Leon to give Mr. Lilly his walking papers...? Mmmm...could be!!

[TheRedEye]

Originally posted by Jeff Harris
Wow. In the midst of Mr. Jones' recent passing, they talk about his good shorts, but judging by the looks of the board, he made a lot of stinkers.

Here's two more to add to the fire:

I Was a Teenage Thumb (WB, March 1963)
The Bear That Wasn't (MGM, 1966)

They are just . . . plain . . . terrible.

Really? I thought "thumb" was the best WB cartoon of the 60s.

[candy17]

Originally posted by Jeff Harris
Wow. In the midst of Mr. Jones' recent passing, they talk about his good shorts, but judging by the looks of the board, he made a lot of stinkers.

Here's two more to add to the fire:

I Was a Teenage Thumb (WB, March 1963)
The Bear That Wasn't (MGM, 1966)

They are just . . . plain . . . terrible.

Are you cracked?! The Bear That Wasn't is probably the most brilliant non-WB Jones cartoon I've ever seen (I mean, next to How the Grinch Stole Christmas and his version of Tom and Jerry).

[Brandon Pierce]

Um.... surprised no one has mentioned "From Hare To Eternity" Chuck Jones's pitiful excuse for a tribute to Friz Freleng.

And can we do "Worst episode from a non-classic cartoon serise"? If we can do that, then there's two Angry Beavers episodes that just aren't worth watching:

Dag In The Mirror- Really cheesy plot. Makes no sense. Bad animation, and a few disgusting parts here and there. Stuff you'd expext come from Ren & Stimpy.

Big Fun- One of the 12 unaired episodes. I have a copy of this episode (as well as the other 11), aand MY GOD this episode is AWFUL! Nothing funny happens! The gags are weak! Horrible dialogue. The episode starts off slow and just drags on getting lamer and lamer. For those who haven't seen the unaired episodes yet and would like to see this one, DONT BOTHER. It's not worth it.

[Thad Komorowski]

"Matinee Mouse" is OKAY, I wouldn't call it my least favorite T&J, because it has some very good animation at the end. Why couldn't they use the H-B style in the other Chuck Jones cartoons?

Thad

[Jeff Harris]

Originally posted by Brandon Pierce
Um.... surprised no one has mentioned "From Hare To Eternity" Chuck Jones's pitiful excuse for a tribute to Friz Freleng.
Yeah . . . that was bad. And Frank Gorshin's voicework as Yosemite Sam in that short was abysmal, sounding absolutely nothing like Mr. Blanc's hot-tempered red head. Sam just seemed a bit sedated in that short
Originally posted by candy17
Are you cracked?! The Bear That Wasn't is probably the most brilliant non-WB Jones cartoon I've ever seen (I mean, next to How the Grinch Stole Christmas and his version of Tom and Jerry).Perhaps it's my own tastes. I kinda liked The Dot and the Line much better. The Bear That Wasn't was just plain off and beguiling, not to mention almost unbearable (ugh, I didn't want to say THAT).

Originally posted by TheRedEye
Really? I thought "thumb" was the best WB cartoon of the 60s.
Perhaps this is my own tastes yet again, but there are a few better 60s WB shorts, like Hyde and Go Tweet, The Wolf and Sheepdog series, Now Hear This, and the pre-64 Road Runners. I Was A Teenaged Thumb was, like The Bear That Wasn't, off the mark and basically lacking in every sense of the word.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Cartman
I guess my views are different. I like most of the Daffy/Speedy cartoons, despite their bad background art (I understand that the WB cartoon studio was near closing down so they couldn't afford to produce cartoons with good animation).
Actually, I think that was just the popular style at the time. Backgrounds are supposedly one of the least expensive things in a cartoon, and the detail is only really limited to the time spent on them (assuming the background painter is a good one).

My biggest problem with the later Speedys is that Daffy was really really really miscast in them. It's possibly the worst case of miscasting in the history of WB cartoons. Daffy is an out of character stooge for a mouse, and I find that more sad than funny.

I would probably like them more if they put Sylvester into those cartoons, even if they changed nothing else. True, Sylvester would have been badly drawn (but Daffy wasn't exactly handsome in those cartoon either), but he plays off of Speedy much better than Daffy ever did.

BTW, I'll chime in and defend "The Bear that Wasn't" too. I thought it was a delightful cartoon. Not as good as the "The Dot and the Line," but overall better than the Tom and Jerrys made at the same time. I also like the design of it, for some reason. I'd like to find the book someday.


Jack :D

[J Lee]

"The Bear that Wasn't" is plodding at times in getting to the point, but it's not a horrible cartoon. Jones was at his worst when his cuteness instincts -- stiffled since the re-do of Sniffles in 1943 -- started to come back out in the 1960s. His one-shots of the period all were talk festivals, and even some of his overly-verbal cartoons with the regulars, like "Hare-Breadth Hurry" really miss the mark.

"Angel Puss" belongs in its own special "I can't believe how stupid the main character is"category of badness, even before you get to the racially stereotypical gags. Lou Lily was probably the all-time most inappropriate story man for Charles M. Jones, since Lou had a distressing habit in evey single one of the WB cartoons he received story credit on of killing off or burying a character at the end of the short, while Chuck's best cartoons made the violence involved hurt the character and the audience as little as possible. Lily's style meshed far better with Bob Clampett, on "Hare Ribbin'" "Russian Rhapsody," "Buckaroo Bugs" and "Draftee Daffy" (and here's one other thing that Bob and Lou had in common -- they both would fire Art Davis' story man and future Bullwinkle voice/writer Bill Scott from jobs after they had left the studio).

"Matinee Mouse" also doesn't really get on my worst list. It's like "The Bear..." not a realy good cartoon, but not much different from Tom Ray's other Tom & Jerry clip job, "Shutter-Bugged Cat." I can think of at least three Gene Deitch T&Js that are far more grating on the neves than either of these (and can anyone picture what a Gene Deitch Tom & Jerry compilation cartoon would have looked like? Now that's a scary thought....)

[Der Captain]

Okay, I have to say it - "Transylvania 6-5000"! Adise from the fact that it's latter-day namesake is a horrendously bad Jeff Goldblum movie, this one is excessively verbose, plodding, overly-self-concious and Bugs is much too smug in these later shorts. "Hare-breadth Hurry" would run a close second in the "Worst Of Jones" book. The coyote was always more vulnerable and sympathic when not speaking and the whole film made me hate the wabbit!

As for the Daffy/Speedy teamings, only "A Taste of Catnip" shows any sign of inspiration. But even then we're stuck with poor timing, bad art, and obnoxious canned music!

[J. J. Hunsecker]

Originally posted by lislebartman
Let's lay blame where it's due -- the story was by Lou Lilly, whose career @ Warners was very short-lived. It's not a great story, but Jones did his best, what with the nice backgrounds and the animation was good...

Maybe it was this cartoon that forced Leon to give Mr. Lilly his walking papers...? Mmmm...could be!!

I know the credits in a Warner cartoon can be deceiving since Leon had in place a system of rotating credits for the writers and animators. The correct writer or animator of a certain cartoon isn't listed sometimes. So with this in mind, how do you know it was Lou Lilly who wrote this story since Warren Foster is officially credited as the writer?

[Matthew Hunter]

Well, a few of the Daffy and Speedy cartoons have backgrounds done by one of my favorite background artists, Tom O'Loughlin. He created a number of backgrounds for Friz Freleng's cartoons in teh late 1950's and early 60's, including "Pied Piper of Guadelupe". He seemed to capture Mexican cities and deserts very well, maybe that's why they had him stay on to do some for McKimson's Daffy/Speedies. "Well Worn Daffy" is undoubtedly one of the weaker entries in the series, but the animation is nice and the backgrounds are pleasant. Can't expect a background for a Speedy cartoon set in a rural or desert area to be TOO detailed...unlike the Road Runner cartoons set in the American Southwest, these are set in Mexico, and if you have been to the Mexican desert, particularly the Chihuahuan Desert just south of El Paso Texas....there's not a lot there TO paint.
-Matthew

[chuckamuck43]

Allow me to kinda paraphrase:


Originally posted by Jack

My biggest problem with the later Speedys is that Daffy was really really really miscast in them. It's possibly the worst case of miscasting in the history of WB cartoons.
I would probably like them more if they put Sylvester into those cartoons...he plays off Speedy much better than Daffy ever did.
Jack :D

That sums it up perfectly, Jack ol' buddy.

[The Silver Fox]

my vote for canidates for Worst toons
start with Isings toons (MGM toons currently on Acme Hour)
as chip off the block and bat's in the belfry.
Filmations T and J show
HB's mid 80's Jetson's reveave(sp)
Pup named scooby doo
Flintson kids
and any of the WB toons made between
1978-84, shorts, not the movies., from the BB/rr hour from CBS yrs.
and CN's CC show cow and chicken (Gross out fest of ren and stimpy re hashed)

[The Silver Fox]

on the toon asks about,
part i though was not right was soundtrack, that at times
didnt' match well.
not to mention the animation didnt at parts match.
i say 1/2 turkey toon.

[candy17]

Originally posted by The Silver Fox
my vote for canidates for Worst toons
start with Isings toons (MGM toons currently on Acme Hour)
as chip off the block and bat's in the belfry.
Filmations T and J show
HB's mid 80's Jetson's reveave(sp)
Pup named scooby doo
Flintson kids
and any of the WB toons made between
1978-84, shorts, not the movies., from the BB/rr hour from CBS yrs.
and CN's CC show cow and chicken (Gross out fest of ren and stimpy re hashed)

Why don't you lay off ragging on the Cartoon Cartoons, man. I like Cow and Chicken and it's 10x's better than Ren and Stimpy (considering that R&S was edited on Nickelodeon for extremely gross jokes and a lot of suggestive scenes)

[Matthew Hunter]

Oh, I don't know. Not ALL cartoon Cartoons are bad, but all of them seem rushed to me, like they were works people didn't take their time on. "Samurai Jack, "Courage the Cowardly Dog" and "Dexter's Lab" are the best of the bunch, "powerpuff Girls" is clever, but stuff like "Cow and Chicken", "Sheep in the Big City", and "Ed, Edd and Eddy" just stinks, I don't know why they made it in the first place. Just my opinion, I don't mean to shoot anyone down, but I just don't LIKE Cow and Chicken. I didn't like Ren and Stimpy much either, but it had some moments I enjoyed, like the "Stimpy's Invention" and "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence" cartoons. Those were funny. I can't think of a single moment on Cow and Chicken that made me laugh or remember it fondly, and I have watched a fair amount of Cow and Chicken cartoons, since they used to put one on the front of Bugs and Daffy as a promotion to be cute. Its spinoff, "I Am Weasel" was not near as bad, but it seems that one got swept under the rug.
-Matthew

[The Silver Fox]

in my post i put an IMO,
in my opion, but i do have to admit there
are soem gems in CC toons, Robot Jones is another that
could be called a sleeper Gem, gives us the classic look
seen in the old school house rock cartoon.
time squad had its better toons to, hidden gems, i not raving on all
the CC shows, just a few that get WAy over played or are out of
production.
if they had a CC show that had the Very best of the shows, i wouldn't mind at all. Its when they overplay rushed made CC shows such as C & C, the Eds, and sheep is when i get miffed cause it means other great gems of the CC era don't get to see the light of day at all.
look at Mike lu and og, i am wes. (which was the only brite spot of the C & C with a few gems).
if they were to rotate the shows in a month it would give the gems a chance to shine.
also R & S, was showned uneditedt first 2 yrs on Nick, and later on MTv, it was the complaints of the gross jokes that caued it to get
edited on both stations. R & S was edited on MTV when Bevis and butthead was heavly edited in the mid 90's.
do to controversy.

Its just i get mad that CN doesn't let there best shows come on at all and when they get good shows that are made well, they seem to get zaped off the air, the bob clampett show, Bugs and dafy, Robot, the first season of Acme Hour (the good mix).

please forgive me for the raving on the CC shows, as you can see its cause to me they get the worst of the bunch get the most airplay.

[candy17]

Originally posted by Matthew Hunter
Oh, I don't know. Not ALL cartoon Cartoons are bad, but all of them seem rushed to me, like they were works people didn't take their time on. "Samurai Jack, "Courage the Cowardly Dog" and "Dexter's Lab" are the best of the bunch, "powerpuff Girls" is clever, but stuff like "Cow and Chicken", "Sheep in the Big City", and "Ed, Edd and Eddy" just stinks, I don't know why they made it in the first place. Just my opinion, I don't mean to shoot anyone down, but I just don't LIKE Cow and Chicken. I didn't like Ren and Stimpy much either, but it had some moments I enjoyed, like the "Stimpy's Invention" and "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence" cartoons. Those were funny. I can't think of a single moment on Cow and Chicken that made me laugh or remember it fondly, and I have watched a fair amount of Cow and Chicken cartoons, since they used to put one on the front of Bugs and Daffy as a promotion to be cute. Its spinoff, "I Am Weasel" was not near as bad, but it seems that one got swept under the rug.
-Matthew

I'm with you. I don't mind if you don't like Ed Edd and Eddy or Cow and Chicken (I do mind if you hate Time Squad or Robot Jones because these are actually good if you have the attention span and time to watch them, and they're way funnier than the classic stuff...no offense).

Sorry for going off-topic, but it has to be said.

[Daniel P]

I think that "Courage..." is brilliant. I like Dexter, even the new episodes.

But about CC's that I think suck, I whole-heartedly believe that "Sheep In the Big City" should have never even been DRAWN...

[Lonestarr]

Originally posted by dacp3
I think that "Courage..." is brilliant. I like Dexter, even the new episodes.

But about CC's that I think suck, I whole-heartedly believe that "Sheep In the Big City" should have never even been DRAWN...

It's funny, because a) I thought we were talking about theatrical cartoons (cartoon shows have their own thread at WBC) and b) I feel the exact opposite. I love "Sheep" (very reminscient of "Rocky and Bullwinkle"), but I find "Courage" too one-note, and while I love the older "Dexter" episodes, the newer ones are just awful.

To keep things on-topic, I'd like to say that just about any later Road Runner cartoon stinks, and "The Bear That Wasn't" isn't so much bad as it is boring.

[Batfan]

My favorite Cartoon Cartoons are Ed, Edd, N, Eddy and Courage.

Ed, Edd, N, Eddy is often judged as a Ren & Stimpy knock-off simply because of the animation. If any of you actually bothered to watch, you'd realize that it's absolutely nothing like R&S.

Courage contains wonderful animation, great music, and interisting villians. I'm pretty sure the creator, John Dilworth, was a fan of classic animation when he was a kid. A lot of his stuff seems inspired by it.

I'm a minority but I don't like Samurai Jack. It's boring and I can't keep my interest on it for long. And I have no idea why people keep thinking it's a Cartoon Cartoon. It's obviously not.

Other ones I enjoy but are not my favorites are Dexter (1st-2nd Season only) and Johnny Bravo (1st Season Only).

I despise Time Squad & Grim & Evil. I don't have much of an opinion on Robot Jones.