Am i the only one a little dissapointed by this show? [Archive]

DisneyBoy

10-05-2002, 09:48 AM

Well, the show is far from bad, I think. Sure there are a few things that could be different, but all in all, it's fun to watch, and it's only just finished it's first season. Even B:TAS got better with time. Give Justice League a chance.

As for your specific points, sure, they could have used Kyle or Hal, but using the lesser-known John Steward gives the group more of a dynamic. He's not a bad character (though he isn't my favorite) and in the end, I really don't think it matters. Hawkgirl is one character thrown in to diversify, to be sure, but she's also a wild card. To date, the show has yet to fully explain her presence, but visually she looks good, and so far she's been Ok to watch. I do feel that Wonder Woman hasn't been getting the treatment she deserves (from her design, to her dialogue to her storylines), but we all have a favorite character we want to see shine. You may be unhappy with GL. Someone else may want more Flash. We have to remember that this is a group show with seven members. If the writers only focus their attention on one or two, the rest are ignored. Yes, I think that the show needs to "grow up" a little in terms of dialogue, pacing and overall structure, but once it does, the series will finally shine with it's full potential.

As for Batman Beyond, that series ended years ago. WB didn't want any new episodes, and, to be honest, the show had mild popularity (in the sense that it hadn't become as much of a property as say S:TAS or B:TAS). Bruce Timm (a main guy involved with JL) has never been one to completely stick by all continuity, because it tends to box the stories in. If you know that Joker will return in the future, then doesn't it take away from seeing him now? Frankly, I like the fact that BB isn't a for sure future. I mean, who really has the right to decide how the Batman legend ends? And it's not as if JL has contradicted BB much.

So there you have my two cents. Change, please? :p

Aberration

10-05-2002, 10:48 AM

IMO, Justice League has plenty of action and supervillains. My problem with the show is the lack of real character development. We only get some superficial tidbits, like... (I'll use "A Knight in Shadows" as an example) J'Onn misses his home and is desperate to have his family back. It just seems like they needed some reason for him to pit him against the rest of the team, and used that.

Yes, I know that this plot point is a major part of his character, but it seems like so much more can be done with it. At the end, where he says something like, "In my desire to be reunited with my old family, I've betrayed my new one." And I've seen no real indication that J'Onn considers the League as his family, so this line comes off as a little empty for me.

I guess a lot of this comes from missing BTAS, which had some excellently psychological episodes, which you really can't do when you're focusing on action and need to give screentime to 3-4 other heroes like JL does.

But speaking of Batman, I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to say this, but why can't the animators make him move like Batman should? Whenever I see him onscreen, I think it's some random guy dressed in a Batman costume. This is kinda hard for me to let go, because Bruce Timm has worked on Batman for so long, and he could come down on the animators to make sure that the character is done right. But maybe they don't have enough money to send shots back for re-animation, I don't know.

Supremus

10-05-2002, 11:23 AM

I think the bottom line is that JL is much more of a children's show than BTAS, STAS or BB were, and they have gradually dumbed it down since BTAS. I suspect WB and CN executives are more to blame for this than Timm and the gang.

As for the look and animation of the show, it's clear that most of the designs were done to get the most out of them with the least possible effort, and the fact that most of the production of the show is done digitally, means JL's visuals don't have the richness of the previous DC shows. I particularly can't stand when they use digital effects for fire, smoke, lens flares and that sort of thing. It looks terrible when a fireball is traditionally animated as it flies towards its target, and then it's CG when it hits. Pathetic! At least be consistent.

These are all technicalities, and could be overlooked if the writing was good, but more often than not, the writers tend to just go for big epic action, and any attempt at character development usually seem more like an afterthought than anything else.

I think episodes such as Injustice For All, The Savage Time, and to a lesser extent Fury and Legends, were starting to show that JL could turn into something special, but there is still some way to go. Hopefully with the new additions to the creative team, next season will be better than the first.

n8twing

10-05-2002, 11:28 AM

Well, out of all the WB DCAniamted [Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Batman New Adventures, Batman Beyond, Justice League] Justice League is the one I like LEAST -- by far.

So far, not one JL episode has approached the quality of an average episode of any of those series. Most episodes are somewhere in the 'Hand of Fate' and 'Promoetheon' territority of Superman: TAS. That is, lots of action [some of it boring] and slow pace.

My criticisms:

- I dont care who is GL or how long Batman's ears are; Just tell good stories-- and JL hasnt done much of that

- Almost EVERY two-part ep could have been better as a leaner one-part. Part one always has a too-long fight scene, and another too-long fight scene toward the end... and in part two it's the same thing. the SINGLE episode eps of the other shows usually had two fights-- the initial one and the climax/denouncement. JL always seems woefully padded.

- the 2-part format SHOULD allow for much more character development. look how much character development XMen Evolution has-- sometimes there's HARDLY much fighting at all. Cant JL do more of that? Stuff like that would eliminate those boring fights. I mean, the BRAVE AND THE BOLD gave us NO GREATER insights into GL or Flash. PARADISE LOST didnt delve into WW's and Hippolyta's relationship much. Such wasted opportunities.

- So serious. Trying so hard to be anti-Superfriends, this show lacks any fun -- everyone but Flash is so dour... and Flash sometimes suffers from 'comic relief' syndrome... some of his 'jokes' are just bad attempts at humor. The show needs to lighten up.

It's got it's moments-- ENEMY BELOW and IN BLACKEST NIGHT were probably two of my favorites. Most of the others were padded, of copped out somehow.

Martianman606

10-05-2002, 11:30 AM

Well I want more action and more super villians - and when I say super villians I'm talkin more on the lines of people like Metallo and Braniac. All of these villians I don't know about.

There is not that much action in it. It needs to be more intense - and more fighting.

Supremus

10-05-2002, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Martianman606
Well I want more action and more super villians - and when I say super villians I'm talkin more on the lines of people like Metallo and Braniac. All of these villians I don't know about.

There is not that much action in it. It needs to be more intense - and more fighting.

There's a show on UPN called Smackdown you might like :)

Actually, I agree that if they have to have supervillains in every show, it would be nice to see some of the "classics" like Brainiac, Darkseid and so forth. But it looks like we get to see them next season.

I am not sure if intensity is the right word, but you are right that the action/fighting is definitely lacking something. There's just no real sense of urgency, or even surprise. It feels like we have seen most of these episodes a million times before. Who in their right mind believed for a second that J'onn would really betray the league in Knight of Shadows?

Even though they obviously couldn't have J'onn turn rogue for real (although that might have been cool) they could have at least done something a little more interesting with the ending other than him unceremoniously crushing the stone. This show is just too safe.

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-05-2002, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Martianman606
Well I want more action and more super villians - and when I say super villians I'm talkin more on the lines of people like Metallo and Braniac. All of these villians I don't know about.

There is not that much action in it. It needs to be more intense - and more fighting.

Supposedly Brainiac will make a guest appearance on Justice League this coming season...as the villain of the episode. Plus, he's also going to guest star on one of this season's episodes of Static Shock. So we'll se plenty of Brainy-Boy this year, which I'm excited about, as for Metallo, I don't know. But I'd like to see him again too. I for one think Justice League is a great show, and I think it has plenty of action...War World was actually even kind of violent...not that that episode was really all that great though. But still, I think it has more action then Superman and Batman: The Animated Series ever did. Could be wrong though...it's hard to make comparisons sometimes. I think the show will get better...by the way, DisneyBoy, in what way does Justice League contradict Batman Beyond? After all, if you're refering to ROTJ, it doesn't contradict Justice League, because Joker's appearance in Injustice For All pre-dates the flashback scene in ROTJ.

Salvor

10-05-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by DisneyBoy
Even B:TAS got better with time. Give Justice League a chance. Sure, but the road is long for Justice League... Batman started with 'On Leather Wings', which was excellent, while JL started with 'Secret Origins', which was rather mediocre (I did like the first part, mostly because it looked more like a WF epsiode than anything else)

DCU Bat

10-05-2002, 12:19 PM

I like this show. It's got lot of potential and I'm a JLA fan.

I wonder, Do you guys critisize BB too? Cause I can Critisize it all day. I agree there was a lot of depth to the Bat-clan but never to Terry. I guess It's because I'm a hardcore Bat-fan and It just wasn't the show I was looking for.

Hehehe Ok sorry 'bout that. Just trying to pull your nerves.

Back to Topic :

Why don't you guys wait till Second season and We'll see how much the quality has improved.

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-05-2002, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Salvor
Sure, but the road is long for Justice League... Batman started with 'On Leather Wings', which was excellent, while JL started with 'Secret Origins', which was rather mediocre (I did like the first part, mostly because it looked more like a WF epsiode than anything else)

Yes but think about it...it's hard to write a plot with a whole bunch of superheroes...on "On Leather Wings," there was only one hero...they have to keep track of seven heroes on Justice League, so that was not even close to a fair comparison at all.

Salvor

10-05-2002, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
Yes but think about it...it's hard to write a plot with a whole bunch of superheroes...on "On Leather Wings," there was only one hero...they have to keep track of seven heroes on Justice League, so that was not even close to a fair comparison at all.
Quite honestly, it is the fairest comparison ever :) How can you judge unfair the comparison between two pilots, made by the same team (sort of!), both introducing superhero shows?

And I've never cared much for the "hard to write with so many superheroes" excuse. First when I watch a cartoon, I'm not thinking "ok, it's mediocre, but then again, it was sooo hard for them to come up with something decent, let's just forgive them and enjoy the show", I'm rather thinking "uh it's ugly and boring"... see what I mean? If it's not good, then the guys behind the show failed, period.

Besides they worked it out just fine in BB's 'The Call', where all the JL members interact so well with one another... it's too bad they didn't pull it off in the actual JL show!

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-05-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Salvor
Quite honestly, it is the fairest comparison ever :) How can you judge unfair the comparison between two pilots, made by the same team (sort of!), both introducing superhero shows?

And I've never cared much for the "hard to write with so many superheroes" excuse. First when I watch a cartoon, I'm not thinking "ok, it's mediocre, but then again, it was sooo hard for them to come up with something decent, let's just forgive them and enjoy the show", I'm rather thinking "uh it's ugly and boring"... see what I mean? If it's not good, then the guys behind the show failed, period.

Besides they worked it out just fine in BB's 'The Call', where all the JL members interact so well with one another... it's too bad they didn't pull it off in the actual JL show!

I'm sorry, but no, I don't see what you mean...and as for "The Call," I'm pretty sure that they had a bigger budget back then, plus, I didn't think they interacted well, they all kept arguing and Aquagirl was kind of a pointless character...not that I didn't like the episode, it was the best danged Batman Beyond episode period, but it wasn't perfect...the show was a little darker but it had to be because Batman is a little darker. And while I did enjoy "The Call" more then I enjoyed most episodes of "Justice League" I still say that Justice League isn't boring, and that it's an unfair comparison. That's just my opinion though.

PS: "On Leather Wings" was the first episode, but it wasn't much of a pilot, Batman was already established. With Justice League, it made more sense to establish them on the pilot. Besides, "On Leather Wings" wasn't even the first episode aired.

Supremus

10-05-2002, 12:54 PM

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-05-2002, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Supremus
I agree. On Leather Wings was an awesome pilot episode, but I had lost the will to live halfway through the second part of Secret Origins.

As for whether it's difficult to write a good team show, just look at X-Men Evolution. Not only do they have much better animation, but in terms of writing, they were pretty solid throughout the first season, and season 2 was even better.

And although it's a different medium, the JLA comics have been superbly written since their relaunch a few years ago. Good writers write good stuff, regardless of the amount of characters, and the writers of the JL show often struggle with something as basic as giving a true representation of the characters and their powers. And it's not like they even have to juggle the whole team, as most episodes are usually missing at least a few characters.

Ya think? I only now started to get into X-Men Evolution...I thought the first season was pathetic! The battle scenes just weren't right. They didn't fit. But the show is getting better. But still, it's no where near Justice League in my book...even most Marvel fans would tell you that.

PandyDawn2000

10-05-2002, 12:59 PM

Im happy with the characters and there personalitys i LOVE the show!:)

Storm

10-05-2002, 01:15 PM

I have no problem with Justice League

The reason why I prefer the show than the comic is because Wonder Woman is not the only female core member and there's a black member among the core seven. Don't get me wrong I'm not racist but I rather see a character that I can relate to and John Stewart is just cool better than Kyle in my book.

Let's not get caught up in the "It's hard to make a good Superhero Team Show" look at X-men (original), X-men: Evolution, TMNT, Fantatsic Four, and even Avengers for that matter. They all had great art and writing and so it can't be hard for JL. I beiliev that the crew had troblue handling a show like this. Thank goodness that JL has some new writers and crew members for season two. In my opinion X-men: Evolution is much better than JL (maybe that's the X-men fan talking in me :p) Anyway I can't wait for JL season two :D

Salvor

10-05-2002, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
I'm sorry, but no, I don't see what you mean...and as for "The Call," I'm pretty sure that they had a bigger budget back then, plus, I didn't think they interacted well...
lol ok then... What I mean is there are ways to settle the "too many characters" issue, just like we (or at least I) see in 'The Call', and the ppl behing 'Secret Origins' and most of the other JL eps didn't find one. That means it's entirely their fault and that excuse isn't valid. That's *just* what I meant :)

Why do I think the JLU works so well? Because:
- they have a true leader, Superman, who draws upon his wide range of powers to handle crises and to mange the whole team.
- they all use a great varity of powers, which makes the action flow (see GL's constructs, Warhawk's armor etc)
- they do interact well, insofar as -indeed- they argue, they mock one another, they have respect for each other etc... in short they have the chemistry that lacks in the JL cartoon.

Supremus

10-05-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
Ya think? I only now started to get into X-Men Evolution...I thought the first season was pathetic! The battle scenes just weren't right. They didn't fit. But the show is getting better. But still, it's no where near Justice League in my book...even most Marvel fans would tell you that.

I am not even a Marvel fan, so I hate praising them over DC, and their old shows like X-Men TAS, Avengers, Fantastic Four were garbage, but X-Men Evolution is surprisingly good.

I don't really judge a show by its battle scenes, but I think X-Men:Evo manage to juggle their characters much better in 22 minutes than JL do in 44 minutes, and they even managed to have an underlying plot running throughout the season 1 episodes. As for whether you like the characters or not, that's a different story.

Storm

10-05-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Supremus
I am not even a Marvel fan, so I hate praising them over DC, and their old shows like X-Men TAS, Avengers, Fantastic Four were garbage, but X-Men Evolution is surprisingly good.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Supremus I'm I reading right??? X-men:TAS garbage....

:storm1288 passes out:

Supremus

10-05-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by storm1288
:eek: :eek: :eek: Supremus I'm I reading right??? X-men:TAS garbage....

:storm1288 passes out:

Sorry, but someone had to say it :)

I don't want to turn this into an X-Men thread, so I think my final word on the subject is that I would still prefer JL to X-Men TAS.

Serenity

10-05-2002, 02:56 PM

I really don't have much disappointments with the show,

I think the show is moving along just fine,
if you look at the first JL episodes like Secret Origins and In blackest knights and then you look at the later episodes like A knight of shadows and Injustice for all, you can see that JL is gradually improving along the lines of animation and the writing.

Every new show in their first stages has it's flaws but once you
give the show time to grow it starts to become better and that's what I'm starting to see in JL.

especially in hearing all these praise reviews of Savage times,
in which I'm extremely excitied to see. :)

Although, JL's animation is in no way as superior as in X-men evolutions. I do however find both shows enjoyable.

I love Justice League and I'm just happy that I do get to watch a JL show on TV every week.

SageHare6

10-05-2002, 03:21 PM

Though I can't claim to be a DC comics faithful, what I will say is that as an old BTAS fan, it's hard not to compare what JL has and hasn't achieved relative to its predecessor. By my understanding, BTAS had the benefit of 3(?:confused: ) visionaries in Boyd, Kirkland and Timm. And though I highly praise Bruce Timm for his courageous work with JL, I can't help but feel that JL periodically flirts with, but has yet to capture, that elusive magic we have all come to appreciate in BTAS.

I think Supremus raised the point that JL is more a kids show. However, if anything, I find JL operates on a more mature level, perhaps, to appease those who grew up with classics like BTAS. Some of the themes being raised (e.g. Aquamans' sacrifice for his son) are very deep, IMO. However, where JL becomes more of a kids show is when it ceases to take itself seriously, which unfortunately, is happenning more often than not. On occasion, it works for writers to make light of their own show (as the X-files periodically does). Yet, to sustain a certain level of intensity and cohesion, the majority of eps should be "serious" in tone and gravity. Among the not so serious eps, I would cite Metamorpho, War World, and perhaps Secret Origins II, and III among them.

I can honestly say that I appreciated the character development of every single batman villian. With JL, I can think of at least 3 (Metamorpho, Mongol, Faust) villains just haven't captured my fancy. Another difference is that unlike BTAS' Girls Night Out or KnightTime (which were both masterfully done IMO) where u have many villians pitted againt a few heros, the JL team, apart from I4A is always outnumbering the villian(s). Given their greater firepower, why should we fret for our heroes?

My suggestions for improvement are:

1. place the JL in a numerical disadvantage. Though not every ep can be a JL vs. I4A, why not run parallel stories that connect one hero with one villian? The JL will then become more of a dispatch operation with each hero having a race to finish their task so they can later assist their teammates.

2. keep the tone dark. To better highlight to "heroic" attributes of so many superheroes, it helps to keep the tone "serious" and paint a darker background of calamity and crime. Though JL now is by no means a "happy" skit, the tone is not quite there to make this a gem. The villain count and more villain character development are, IHMO key to solving this problem. :eek:

3.Place our heroes in peril. Batman had to escape from alligators, giant bats, water tanks, etc... plus he's mortal. In the Superman "GL" ep, the writers succeeded in making GL rather vulnerable against Sinistro. Therefore, I have confidence that this can be done - with every hero.

4.Use fewer heroes per ep. Though this may stray from the "JL" roots, why not make some self-contained 1/2 hour pieces focusing on a specific hero? Again, hat's off to Timm and Co. for addressing the complex challenges of managing multiple characters per ep. But why make life more complicated? One or two heroes per ep is already plenty.

5. Invent some new villains or cohorts to new villains. Born out of the animated series, Harley Quinn will forever be etched into Batman lore. We've seen it before, so I know it can be done. Let the creativity flow.

JMHO :wakko:

SageHare6

10-05-2002, 03:51 PM

Lastly, I'll note that I think JL suffers from its overachievement. Somewhere I read how in the conception of this series, Timm & Co. sought to go back to their roots w/ respect to coloring and animation. Yet, as we saw in the Superman series, great coloring and great animation doesn't always make for a gem of an episode. On this note, I think the JL writers are doing an excellent job. However, in bringing the script to life, the final product is blessed with almost too much color, too much life, and too much animation. :confused:

The best counter example I can offer is a scene from BTAS when Mr. Freeze opens a door that reveals the only light in an otherwise black backdrop. Nothing fancy here, yet a highly effective scene. Granted, most all BTAS eps were set at night, but even in JL, whether it is in space, at night, or underground, I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities to take advantage of the "dark deco" techniques of old. :)

Generally speaking, I think there is more than can be done with this thing called "perspective." It was often the case with BTAS where our perspective could change from top to bottom much like the camera tricks used in today's movies. Perhaps the folks behind BTAS had to be more resourceful, but the moments JL plays with perspective (e.g. opening flight scenes with Superman in Secret Origins I), JL looks brilliant. :D At other times, JL simply looks too flat. Show too much to the eye, and there is less all around suspense.

Finally, why is it that our characters are always in uniform? One of the best parts about the Superman/Batman stories is simply the dual-identity theme. Yet not a single story in JL has yet to exploit the "suspense" inherent with our heroes acting out their alter-egos. With the Superman series, Clark Kent raised our appreciation for the man of steel. Perhaps for reasons of time limitations, it can't be done with four heroes in the script. If so, it makes sense to focus on a smaller number at a time.

JL is truly ambitious. It is also an overachiever by virtue of the bar it set for itself. However, to achieve the level of greatness that BTAS has achieved, JL, IMHO, should think less in terms of establishing it's own identity (it already has a great identity), and instead, revisit the old formulas of success as used in BTAS and STAS.

JMHO :wakko:

DisneyBoy

10-05-2002, 09:50 PM

And I've never cared much for the "hard to write with so many superheroes" excuse. First when I watch a cartoon, I'm not thinking "ok, it's mediocre, but then again, it was sooo hard for them to come up with something decent, let's just forgive them and enjoy the show", I'm rather thinking "uh it's ugly and boring"... see what I mean? If it's not good, then the guys behind the show failed, period.

Yikes Salvor - that sounds like some cold, hard truth!

Yes, I haven't seen all of season one, but what I have seen has always left me wondering why it is I feel disappointed. No - It isn't because I set impossible standards. It isn't because GL isn't Kyle or Hal, or that the computer animation makes me dizzy. The writing lacks...period. So does the dialogue. I mean how many times do we need to hear Wonder Woman finish someone else's sentence?

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a Leaguer say "We have to stop him/her" or "It could mean the end of the world! ", I'd rush over to the WB studios and pay the JL crew to listen to fan advice. Sure, I know they drop by here and make notes, but something's still missing.

Sad to say, unlike S:TAS and B:TAS, Justice League does not represent the "ultimate" version of the characters it showcases.

The worst part, it seems, is that both the show and the comic don't seem willing to take a risk and break from the usual format. Diversify. Show Flash in Central City dealing with his real life for a change, or send Diana and Supes away on a mission that heats up with feelings for one another. The more we see the Justice League fly to the rescue, the less we care. If it happens every time we watch the show, it becomes dull. Look at "Appointment in Crime Alley" or "P.O.V." for inspiration on how to mix things up a bit, or focus on single characers, or even have a supporting cast (LOIS LOIS LOIS!!!)

I don't want a cheesy soap opera - but right now, this is a borderline cheesy action show, and that makes me sad.

P.S. To whoever thinks I said that JL contradicts BB, I only said it may contradict, depending on your view. I don't think it does, but then again, I've yet to see every episode of either series.

Joker85

10-05-2002, 11:23 PM

I agree with some of what you guys have said, but I don't really think I've been disappointed with the show yet. There are some things that are lacking. My big thing is character development. I agree 100% with whoever said that they needed to show them out of costume more. We need to see Wally West, Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, etc. Hawkgirl, has not gotten a spotlight show this season. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that each of the 7 characters was supposed to have one spotlight show. Fury was more of a WW then a Hawkgirl,but was that supposed to be a spotlight episode? Batman hasn't really had one either, I don't feel, but thats fine since he had a spotlight series!
My second complaint, is the weakening of Superman. This has bugged me since day one. I just don't understand why they are doing that!
So, to sum up my biggest problem with Justice League, I feel that this is the only shot some of these characters will have to shine in the DCU animated universe(batman and superman each had their own show) and they aren't getting the treatment that they should. WW, Flash, GL, HG, and MM probably will never have their own show, so JL should really develop them. Sadly this isn't happening. But, I've learned never to really judge a show by its first season, and I really hope some of these issues get corrected in the second season.

Anarky

10-06-2002, 12:02 AM

JL & Samurai Jack are the reasons I have a VCR. Well, add BTAS & the new series Birds of Prey to that short list.

Here's a small testimonial from my friend in the USAF. He's stationed abroad. Every now and then, I'll send him a video tape of American programming. I sent him "Secret Origins" and he loved it. This coming from a career Marvel Boy. He got me into comics about 10yrs ago. Namely Spider-Man, Spawn, X-Men... Marvel was his drug of choice. He hated DC. But thanks to BTAS & "Secret Origins", he wants more Justice League.

I'm working on a few more tapes for him now: mixed programming of JL, Samurai Jack, & Invader ZIM.

Oh yeah, he and I shared a burning hatred for Batman Beyond. Bottomline, if it ain't Bruce Wayne, it's garbage.

Simpler Simon

10-06-2002, 01:37 PM

I have yet to be truly disappointed with JL...the job of a TV show is to entertain, and JL entertains me in spades. Mission accomplished. Yeah, it's not quite as good as BTAS, but even STAS, TNBA, and BB weren't up there. BTAS had some sort of magical, mystical quality about it...it's really the only show so far that can be called a cult classic...the others are -just- masterfully done cartoons ;)

I've seen a few episodes of X-Men evolution, and I think JL is much better both in animation, story-telling, and character development. You can only watch teen angst so much before it starts to get stale, and character development for Jean Grey always consists of her screaming and moaning in agony about how she can't control her powers. How many times did they do that on the old X-Men series? As for animation, nearly every American cartoon series borrowed from BTAS and streamlined its animation, but most of them went too far. Character designs are so simple that they feel light, insubstantial, with not enough room for animated facial expressions to convey their voice acting. JL is probably the pinacle of American animation. How many other cartoons have you seen where a hero cuts off his own hand to save his son's life, and then lets his brother fall to his death? Where a fallen warrior can brand an S on his chest? Where heroes and villains can still physically trade blows every episode without being censored and resorting to energy beams, and where those blows actually look like they hurt? Where dialogue has one level of meaning for kids, and a deeper one for adults ("I wonder if she's as loving as her mother")?

JL is *amazing*. It's a breath of fresh air among all this current, horrible Japanese-cheap-anime invasion of beyblade, yu-gi-oh, and whatnot. It gives us our weekly fix of our familiar, apple-pie heroes, and the best part is, the show is only now entering its second season. Long live JL!

MattL.

10-06-2002, 06:10 PM

Well I guess you came to the right place Spider. Not likeing the show but watching and talking endlessly about it is what most to best here. :rolleyes:

For the actual fans of the show who posted, keep saying it loud and proud.

SageHare6

10-07-2002, 05:59 PM

To be fair, I thought I'd list some of the positive surprises I've had with JL. :)

+1 Across the board, the storylines are actually very well written. "Kudos" to the writers who have obviously done a lot of research and tried to weave all of these different characters together. The relationship aspect of each JL pairing is no easy feat. To date, I am impressed with what the writers have done.

+2 Awesome animation that is as smooth as silk. "Kudos" to the animators for making what is truly the best animated series of this young decade. IMO, JL animation rivals the best anime coming out of Japan.

+3 Great music. "Kudos" to the music director and whoever signed off on going back to the instrumental mood music ala BTAS and STAS. Droplets of themes past and musical motifs for each character is tres cool in my book.

+4 Great character designs* I put an asterisk next to this b/c with the exception of our recent Metamorpho, by and large, the character designs are pretty solid.

+5 Great action sequences. This may go hand in hand with great animation, but a lot of credit probably goes to the storyboard artists for laying out these sequences.

So here's my question for those of you who know more about the animation process. With all of this good stuff in the works, where in the process is something "lost in translation?" Some of the things I noted earlier about "perspective" changes and drawing out more time for character development and dramatic pauses... who's responsible for this? The storyboard artist? The Far East animation shop? :confused:

:wakko:

DarkLantern

10-08-2002, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by SageHare6
So here's my question for those of you who know more about the animation process. With all of this good stuff in the works, where in the process is something "lost in translation?" Some of the things I noted earlier about "perspective" changes and drawing out more time for character development and dramatic pauses... who's responsible for this? The storyboard artist? The Far East animation shop? :confused:

:wakko:

Perspective changes/camera angles, and timing of scenes (dramatic pauses) are usually determined by the director, who works with the storyboard artist to translate the directions visually (sometimes they are both the same person). The animation shop takes the storyboard directions to develop key frames (usually from the storyboard panel itself), and all the in-between animation. It may come back here for postproduction/computer effects and, of course, editing (which can change the timing of scenes).

As far as character development goes, that's up to the script writers (or the producers, who usually springboard story ideas). Though there is a show/character "bible" that their stories have to follow.

What do you mean by "lost in the translation" exactly?

DL

SageHare6

10-08-2002, 10:53 PM

Thx for the post DL.

I guess my dilemna is this... every JL story carries a pretty strong script; given the creative ambition thrown at JL, I can appreciate how robust the creative vision is behind each story. Yet, the actual realization of this "vision", for reasons of the many previously noted items, seems to come up short. My first thought was that perhaps this was a creative control issue, where one person's "vision" is not fully realized b/c control of the project is handed off to another authority in the production chain. Understandably, articulating this "vision" across the entire production chain is not an easy task.

Case in point: Batman/Sub-Zero :yawn:

Great story in conception, but sub-par animation and story pacing problems. By my understanding Timm&Co. employed a new animation shop to work on this project. Quite frankly, I wasn't too impressed by the final result.

With JL, the animation is superb. Yet here again, the story pacing problems, and choppy scene changes would lead me to believe that perhaps the animation shop is not doing their job with the "in-between" animation DL mentioned earlier. If indeed there is a lot of "in-between" animation that the overseas shop has creative license over, then perhaps this is the root of the story pacing problems.

Any thoughts? :confused:

:wakko:

guinaevere

10-09-2002, 11:44 PM

SpiderJerusalem said:
I understand the need for ethnic diversity but john stewarts charecter is boring.
I disagree. So far he's the only character I'm able to take seriously. He's been given the foundation for a solid character, where everyone else just seems to be a superhero because it's the thing to do. I don't need to be hit over the head with a characters (hero or villian) motivations, as that often tends to get tiring and predictable, but I do like the little insight we've had into Johns character and his motivations (in blackest knight, pt 1)... it made him much more real and less spandex to me.

Green Arrow said:
Yes Hawkgirl doesn't do much at all except be angry and endanger misions.
I rather like Hawkgirl as she's rough around the edges, but she's also shown sincere compassion and concern for her team mates. To be honest, I like the fact that this team of SuperHeros has someone less than perfect (she'd rather act before thinking; not always the brightest choice) yet who isn't a complete dolt. http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/guinaevere/loopytoungue.gif Ironic as it might seem, I believe her character to be one of the shows strengths.

n8twing said:
and Flash sometimes suffers from 'comic relief' syndrome... some of his 'jokes' are just bad attempts at humor. The show needs to lighten up.

This is not correct... Flash constantly suffers from 'comic relief' syndrome. It would seem that as he isn't a Power House, and they've made him the Fastest Man on Earth, But Not Really So Fast That Any Bad Guy Can Clobber Him (grrr..), he hasn't much else going for him. So he's the one that's supposed to have personality. Which is stoopid, as deadly powerhouse-type characters can have personality (DeadPool, anyone?).

Salvor said:
And I've never cared much for the "hard to write with so many superheroes" excuse. First when I watch a cartoon, I'm not thinking "ok, it's mediocre, but then again, it was sooo hard for them to come up with something decent, let's just forgive them and enjoy the show", I'm rather thinking "uh it's ugly and boring"... see what I mean? If it's not good, then the guys behind the show failed, period.

Point well made, Salvor. In fact, it rather made me rethink my opinion... I've been trying to make allowances for this, as I've become a Timm fan, and I keep hoping that the show will pull itself together... but you're right, if it's not good, those responsible for its creation, have failed. So this is a rare time that I've been too easy on something.

So far the stories have been too stiff, the episodes too padded, the characters too bland & predictable, and worst of all... the shoulders too broad. http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/guinaevere/wink.gif

JusticeLeagueLegion said:
PS: "On Leather Wings" was the first episode, but it wasn't much of a pilot, Batman was already established.
http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/guinaevere/whtieconfused.gif What has that to do with anything? It's still the initial presentation of a completely new product, hence it is a pilot. Nothing more nor less. Yes, Batman has been around how many years in comic book form, and even had prior cartoon appearances/series... but this was an entirely new interpretation and manifestation.

Supremus said:
And although it's a different medium, the JLA comics have been superbly written since their relaunch a few years ago. Good writers write good stuff<snip>
Yet another valid and terrific rationale to humble the JL(cartoon) production team for what they've put together so far.

Supremus also said:
As for the look and animation of the show, it's clear that most of the designs were done to get the most out of them with the least possible effort, and the fact that most of the production of the show is done digitally, means JL's visuals don't have the richness of the previous DC shows.
I don't know if this is the bane of being a Cartoon Network production or not, but it really doesn't matter at this point. Along with all the other criticisms posted so far, this was the first I had viewing Secret Origins; the show, even visually, is flat. I don't mind the 3d cgi opening, but the texture of the actual animation, lacks depth. I'm sure there are kids out there who are growing up with Ed, Edd & Eddy and all the other Cartoon Network productions, so they don't notice the difference between Ink & Paint and CG (which is a shame), but it's obvious to the rest of us, and it looks terrible.

storm1288 said:
Don't get me wrong I'm not racist but I rather see a character that I can relate to and John Stewart is just cool<snip>
Believe me Buddy, that isn't being racist. It's nice to see a strong Black character in any mainstream show... what's especially nice is that the show doesn't feel as if John is in there to balance it out; it feels like he belongs there. [BTW, sorry if I've offended anyone, but of all my friends, not one of them calls themself an African- American, they call themself, Black.]

I'm prolly one of the only peeps to feel this way, but it seems that the heavy hitters (WW, SM & Bats) have yet to be anything but mild or even bland so far. But then, I've still not seen two Savage Time & Injustice For All. Maybe I'll see better.

And whoever was talking about Xman TAS, I watched two episodes with some friends when it came out, and wanted to jump off a bridge. Xmen & Uncanny Xmen had been my favorite titles for about 6 years before the cartoon series came out, and I felt betrayed by its (lack of) quality. I thought it stunk.

BatGirl2001

10-11-2002, 10:43 PM

1.I think your over reacting it's funny how john is and flash together

2.and I like Batman's ears it adds class ( big Batman fan)

3.AND wonderwoman needs a soft spot I find very cool and she STILL has her amazon spunk.

4.and hawkgirl is cool and it adds many new ideas of hawkgirl and wonderwoman pairing up and stuff

5. *no comment*

be grateful there is a JL you don't like than leave (pardon my attitude if im over reacting i just like JL AND Batman)

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-12-2002, 01:07 PM

I think that anyone who has lost all faith in the "Justice League" animated series should have gained all of their faith back from "Metamorphosis" Part Two. Because I thought that episode was flawless...and probably my favorite episode...I thought all the characters were treated fairly in this episode for once!

Joker85

10-12-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
I think that anyone who has lost all faith in the "Justice League" animated series should have gained all of their faith back from "Metamorphosis" Part Two. Because I thought that episode was flawless...and probably my favorite episode...I thought all the characters were treated fairly in this episode for once!
hmm, I respectfully disagree with you here. This was right up there next to War World for me. But, I think that you are right in saying that the characters are getting treated better now. Superman showed SOME of his strength coming back, but I don't htink this episode in any way is flawless. Just my opinion. But thats what the talkback thread is for. I don't think I've lost faith in the show, I'll give it a second season to decide. I just think you have to give a show a year to work all the kinks out, and I think next season will probably overall be a lot better. One thing that I think is funny about this show, and sort of odd, is how they can take a character I've always liked and make me dislike him. This would be Superman. I always liked Supes in his show, but he has been so wimpified in JL that I don't like his character as much. At the same time, Green Lantern has become one of my favorites. I didn't like him when the show first started, but I reallly do now. I think thats cause he's been so developed. We had "In Blackest Night" and "Legends" and "Metamorphosis" and "The Brave and the Bold". He's not had just one spotlight show, he's had at least 3, 4 if you count Brave and the Bold. The rest of the characters have sort of been neglected so he could be developed. I'm not saying thats a bad thing as I've really come to like his character, but I think next season, they need to sort of put him in the background and let some of the other characters shine!

Harvey Dent

10-12-2002, 06:29 PM

If you take the show for what it is, then you'll enjoy it.

If you compare the show to Superman and Batman:The Animated Series, then you'll be a little disappointed because the other half of the heroes lives (secret identities) have been largely ignored.

If you compare the show to a comic story, like JLA:Year One, then it's going to fall tremendously short. This was a story about the formation of the JLA, each heroes individual struggle to deal with leading two lives (or in the case of Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, the difficulty in learning to accept people for what they are, prejudices and all), learning to trust one another, proving themselves to the world and the other established heroes (the JSA, Blackhawks, Superman, Batman, etc), and fighting an alien invasion. In fact, I was secretly hoping Timm would use this story as a model for season one, but these things happen.

In the end, Justice League is a pretty good show, but it's got a number of flaws. Time will tell if Timm can pull everything into a tight, cohesive unit, but without some of the key people who helped make previous shows successful (Paul Dini, Alan Burnett, Boyd Kirkland, Curt Geda, Shirley Walker, etc.), I can't help but harbor quite a bit of doubt.

Dr. J

10-12-2002, 07:18 PM

I enjoy watching Justice League, but it does have quite a few kinks that it needs to work out.

For one thing, does anyone else think that the JL should be powered up a bit? I mean, Wonder Woman can get badly injured from being knocked through a wall, Supes has trouble lifting things that S:TAS Supes could easily lift with one hand, and the Flash can barely catch up to a speeding truck. I mean, I can see that it would be a lot harder to write stories if you had six S:TAS level characters, but right now I'm thinking that if the Justice League is fighting a giant monster, they become obsolete as soon as the military shows up.

Another thing, this show doesn't really do much in the way of surprising me. So far all of the plots have been pretty predictable. I don't want to turn this into a JL vs. X-men thread, but at the end of the second season of Evolution the X-mansion was destroyed, Proffesor X was missing, Magneto had a new Brotherhood that included Gambit (!) and Collosus (!!), Pietro had betrayed Mystique's Brotherhood, Magneto appeared to have been crushed by a Sentinel, a bunch of mutants had been captured and sent to Area 51, and the identities of the X-men were revealed to the world. It'd be cool to see something monumental like that happen on JL, something that would really affect the characters for longer then a single storyarc.

I'd also like to see GL make some ring constructs, but that's just personal preference. Right now its a good show, but it could be a spectacular one. Hopefully things'll get better in season two.

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-12-2002, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Harvey Dent
If you take the show for what it is, then you'll enjoy it.

If you compare the show to Superman and Batman:The Animated Series, then you'll be a little disappointed because the other half of the heroes lives (secret identities) have been largely ignored.

If you compare the show to a comic story, like JLA:Year One, then it's going to fall tremendously short. This was a story about the formation of the JLA, each heroes individual struggle to deal with leading two lives (or in the case of Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, the difficulty in learning to accept people for what they are, prejudices and all), learning to trust one another, proving themselves to the world and the other established heroes (the JSA, Blackhawks, Superman, Batman, etc), and fighting an alien invasion. In fact, I was secretly hoping Timm would use this story as a model for season one, but these things happen.

In the end, Justice League is a pretty good show, but it's got a number of flaws. Time will tell if Timm can pull everything into a tight, cohesive unit, but without some of the key people who helped make previous shows successful (Paul Dini, Alan Burnett, Boyd Kirkland, Curt Geda, Shirley Walker, etc.), I can't help but harbor quite a bit of doubt.

Not sure but I think I heard that Paul Dini is returning for season two...could be wrong though. Can anybody confirm this?

Raziel

10-14-2002, 05:33 PM

Teen Titans will probably be even worse though. I mean, have you seen Tim Drake's design? That's just wrong.

JusticeLeagueLegion

10-14-2002, 07:40 PM

So we know for sure that the Robin on the show actually is going to be Tim Drake then?

Webryder

10-15-2002, 03:30 PM

I have noticed one flaw that irks me above all others and it has to do with Superman. The writers assume since he's had his own show that he doesn't need as much characterization on JL as compared with the other members because fans will already know him. Which I think is the reason he comes off as so stiff and archetypal with a personality that's practically non-existant.

But what they need to realize is that any of the character development made to Superman from STAS can't be counted in with what JL is doing for the simple fact that they've changed almost everything about him. He's barely recognizable compared to the subtly charming, confident counterpart on the past series because they've played with him so much that there's no emotional connection with him the same way as when he had his own show and for that reason they have to completely start over with him if he's to be taken seriously again on JL.

They can't assume anything they've done with his character on STAS will instantly be infered to the Supes on JL in audiences minds because they've made that almost impossible.

It'd be like the writers assuming the viewers of X-men: Evo will understand that Cyclops would or would not kill an innocent solely based on the reasoning that it's because he wouldn't have on X-men TAS. It aint gonna work because the X-men: Evo Sike has been redesigned to such a degree that the only thing linking them to one another is their namesake.

In other words, their revamping of Supes for JL means that anything his connecting him to his counterpart was lost, therefore you have to reintroduce this new version's personality to audiences as if there were no STAS. That means more character development for JL Supes.

That's not true for Bats, cuz even tho he's upgraded the uniform, he's still almost exactly the same character that was left off in TNBA. You could interchange them even. Could JL Supes be interchanged with STAS Supes seamlessly? Hell No. I'd get bored in the first 5 mins watching that stiff in his own series, which is very difficult to write being that I'm a big Superman fan. :( :(

Webryder

10-15-2002, 05:26 PM

On the subject of a group as a whole someone brought up comparing the animated series to the JLA: Year One comic miniseries.

The reason that wouldn't work is that JL:TAS is structured differently than the YO in that the show is not really set up for intrapersonal relationships between members. In the AS we only see them get together when there's an actual threat, they're all about business, not really much small talk happens with them.

As opposed to YO where they could spend an entire comic just shooting the breeze, with small talk of a decidedly superheroic slant. They'd sit around the members table talking about how do you get lava stains out of spandex, or how does Superman keep that spit curl nice and spiffy or is Black Canary really a blonde? In any one book you'd see Flash and Black Canary flirting, Black Canary finding out her mother had an affair on her father, Green Lantern being jealous of Superman, seeing Aquaman as shy and quiet because he isn't used to sound not carrying as much on land, Jonn Jonz majorly freaking everyone out and becoming more alienated when they find he can read minds. Really rich character study stuff like that. In fact the YO comic really has more in common with X-men Evo then with JL:AS where characterization is given a priority over world saving battles. There were so many ackward and funny moments that JL:AS never seems to touch.

In my opinion that aproach works better because when you get inside their head and can see thier apparent humanity you understand how noble they really are and before the audience knows it, they're emotionall invested.

YO was more like a scifi/drama than action which seemed to be almost an afterthought. It would've been cool to see Timm & Co. go that route because it would've stood out completely from what the Superfriends was, which is what he's trying to do.

Steven C

10-16-2002, 07:02 PM

If you take it for whats it worth, then its a fun show to watch. JL is a kids cartoon.

If you compare it to BTAS, STAS, BB, you will be greatly disapointed. Compared to these other shows JL sucks!

Storm

10-16-2002, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Raziel
Teen Titans will probably be even worse though. I mean, have you seen Tim Drake's design? That's just wrong.

Never jugde a book by it cover!!! Let's actually watch the Teen Titans cartoon before putting it down. Anyway this is a JL topic not a Teen Titans topic.

Frank White

10-16-2002, 09:52 PM

I disagree w/ those who say X-Men:TAS was crap, this show was miles more mature than JL, not only that they actually had characterization, something sadly lacking on JL.

satnavsys

10-18-2002, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Frank White
I disagree w/ those who say X-Men:TAS was crap, this show was miles more mature than JL, not only that they actually had characterization, something sadly lacking on JL.

I don't see how you can conclude that Xmen Evolution is more "mature" than JL -- Xmen is is decidedly a kids' program about teen heroes. JL is about adult heroes with adult issues. I admit I've only watched one xmen episode (stuff of heroes). It was entertaining but pretty typical as far as kids' cartoons goes: "here is the moral. come see how the hero learns the moral." I don't think that really counts as characterization.

I like how Batman is a little crummy. WW has the innocence of a 4-year old. GL is all responsibility. And Flash has no respect.

Not that there isn't room for JL to improve. Except for batman, the characters are a tad too lawful-good for me. Everyone's a goody twoshoes. Why is self-sacrifice always interpreted as good? How do these superheroes always know what "good" is? Wish they would deal with that.

Also wish they made GL a little more lawful-neutral than lawful-good. He's basically a cop anyway. Fights chaos, not evil. That would distinguish him better from the other characters.

Frank White

10-18-2002, 04:40 PM

Not X-Men Evolution, Fox's X-Men

Storm

10-18-2002, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by satnavsys
[B]I don't see how you can conclude that Xmen Evolution is more "mature" than JL -- Xmen is is decidedly a kids' program about teen heroes. JL is about adult heroes with adult issues. I admit I've only watched one xmen episode (stuff of heroes). It was entertaining but pretty typical as far as kids' cartoons goes: "here is the moral. come see how the hero learns the moral." I don't think that really counts as characterization.
B]

First of all it's X-men not Xmen get it straight cause I will get Wolverine to rough you up, lol just kidding (I have to make it a little hard on the newbie :p ) That was the X-men fan inside of me ;) Anyway Frank White ment X-men:TAS (Fox verison) not X-men: Evolution and your just basing your opinion on the show from one episode. Satnavsys I recommend for you to watch the end of season 1 and all of season 2 it's really good and it's has all of characterization and JL is a kid's show too.

- Storm1288

DCU Bat

10-19-2002, 12:33 AM

I Thought the only reason why X-men TAS was "mature" was because the stories where taken directly from the comics, now if did something like that, It woud naturally be good with the exception of Originality.

As much as I liked X-men TAS, It became too confusing. For instance, One morning I saw a good episode that was about Professor X and Jaggurnaut. Then my mom decided for us to go for a weeks vaction, One week later when I return to watch the ep. Woosh! Phoenix Saga part 4!! I was going what the heck happened!?!? Jeez every Marvel character who get's an alien symbiot suddenly becomes a God!

Keep in mind, I don't follow comics very well, So I can't imagine what will happen if they try to explain Crisis of Infinate Earths, or how Batman broke his back, or how Superman Died or how Green Lantern goes to New york with his gay assistant.

Another thing, Why do you call JL a kids show? Yah, I admit some of the dilouge seems perfect for kids, but they did explore adult issues like Aquman cutting off his hand or Hades lusting for Hippolyta or Simon Stagg creepyness towards his Daughter. I sure woudn't call this a kids show!

Salvor

10-19-2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by DCU Bat
Another thing, Why do you call JL a kids show? Yah, I admit some of the dilouge seems perfect for kids, but they did explore adult issues like Aquman cutting off his hand or Hades lusting for Hippolyta or Simon Stagg creepyness towards his Daughter. I sure woudn't call this a kids show!
Well it definitely is. I mean, the King of Atlantis being trapped under water, an ancient god lusting a queen, Simon Staag turning into big bad King Kong: these aren't really adult themes, are they? :)

TheGothsandman

10-20-2002, 06:56 PM

I am just giving my two cents on the matters, and if I repeat things, I have yet to read the entire post, and all of the replies, sorry!

I like the show, there are sometimes that the endings, or something about the episode that ends corney, or cheesey, but mind you this show is not given a TV13, or a TVMA rating. This may seem, sick, or twisted, I hoped Metamorphasis would have ended differently......I'll post at the bottom what I felt should have happened.

Then, in the same instant, they have done some great work like in Enemy Below, and the way they have introduced certain corney aspects of the DC world, in a great way. The story of Metamorpho I liked more than his comic book origin, Lex Luthor's power suit, Aquaman's missing hand, etc.

My view, is something can't be good constantly, if it wasn't how could we tell bad, from good. Also, this is the shows first season, give it sometime to grow, one of the ways we become better at anything, is we learn and fix our mistakes.

-GS

Spoiler
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I honestly felt at the end of metamorphasis, Metamorpho should have died, after mixing with the Stagg Monster thing.

Batwonderlove

10-21-2002, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by SpiderJerusalem
Here are my complaints and grievences, stop me if you have heard them before.

1. Green lantern should have been kyle rayner or hal gordon. I understand the need for ethnic diversity but john stewarts charecter is boring. furthermore the way he uses the ring is unbelivable unimagitve (almost a double negative)

2. hawk-either sex stinks

3.batmans ears are unneciarily long

4.Wonderwoman is such a soft touch in this, in the JLA comics she has been acting more and more like an amazon.

5. this series is responsible for the death of Batman Beyond (theory)

Other then that its a pretty good showand the to parter with luthor and joker was pretty awsome. lets see some ras algul stories. he is the kind of villan that puts metahumans in there place.

I like the show. but i agree about the ears :D

Drachentöter

10-21-2002, 03:16 PM

Well, I wonder if people will even bother reading after fifty-five plus posts, but here's my opinions. In rebuttal to the original grievances:

1. Green lantern should have been kyle rayner or hal gordon. I understand the need for ethnic diversity but john stewarts charecter is boring. furthermore the way he uses the ring is unbelivable unimagitve (almost a double negative)

This is such an old and tiring issue. John Stewart is a good character and you can't have an ALL-WHITE cast on any non-anime show nowadays.

2. hawk-either sex stinks

Well, I'll admit they haven't done much to advance her character, but its preferable to Metamorpho or Aquaman-in-space. (You know he'd be useless on the Watchtower.

3.batmans ears are unneciarily long

:confused: This makes you not want to watch the show???

4.Wonderwoman is such a soft touch in this, in the JLA comics she has been acting more and more like an amazon.

Again, an issue of character diversity. Hawkgirl's badass and Wonder Woman's been reintroduced as the newbie, so that alters her persona a bit. But did you see her in Paradise Lost? :) Awesome!

5. this series is responsible for the death of Batman Beyond (theory)

It was cancelled before. The last year or two were backlog episodes.

As for my opinion on the series overall: I see it as an unconventional method. The episodes are focused practically soley on their individual plots, rather than the entire series and its protagonists. Does that mean there can't be more character development? 'Course not. Does it mean all the stories have to be self-absorbed and never referenced again? No. It just means that the very nature of the show makes it seem like individual specials rather than a tightly knit series.

The maturity issue is neutral at this point. It doesn't patronize, it isn't Superfriends, but some plots have been wee shy of shallow (War World). But it's a kids show, it's expected to be. Doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed by adults though.

Don't compare to X-Men. Just like BTAS/STAS, it's a different format.

And finally: Am I the only one who didn't see Simon Stagg's relationship with his daughter as near-incestual? I mean seriously...filthy minds. :D

ClockStomper

10-21-2002, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by VortexInfinite
And finally: Am I the only one who didn't see Simon Stagg's relationship with his daughter as near-incestual? I mean seriously...filthy minds. :D

Based on the episode alone, I agree, but based on the comments of the writer of the episode, he intended for it to be incest. although, they should seriously not let that writer write his own dialouge again, it was mediocre and ham-fisted in part one. It was only better in part two because someone else scripted.

JL is *amazing*. It's a breath of fresh air among all this current, horrible Japanese-cheap-anime invasion of beyblade, yu-gi-oh, and whatnot.

Well, considering very few American cartoons don't inspire the urge to retch *see the Nicktoons made over the last few years* I'm not surprised people shift towards anime.

Plus, you're making a generalization. I doubt you'd call anime "cheap" if you've ever watched Cowboy Bebop on Adult Swim. Shows like Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh get picked up because they're benign and formulamatic (like the Nikelodeons of Japan)and can be shown on Network TV.

It's a shame that brilliant animes get stuck on cable at Midnights on Sundays and cr*p anime gets run 24/7.

My thought on JL:

What's Good:

-Kevin Conroy is the best darned voice actor on this series. after all these years he's still great.

-Some of the endings, like when Diana is banished from Themiscira (even though the episode itself was average) and the twist about the Justice Guild and their sacrifice.

Minor Problems:

-The poor usage/lack of creator knowladge of the JLers super powers. Flash being out runing by a speeding truck? Super Speed has been shown to be an incredible power in the comics. Superman bested by Deadshot? This guy almost killed Darkseid and yet he's stopped by electricity? And MM's crappy usage of his shapshifting powers and Lantern's lack of ring constructs is pathetic.

What's Bad:

-It's like a watered-down summary of what a Timm cartoon is supposed to be. The writing is what totally brings the show down. Metamorphisis had the worst dialouge and the most cliched plot thus far. Predictable from the word go, same as most of the series.

-There's no "edge" on this series, like on past series. B:TAS and T:NBA got away with a lot more violence and more mature themes. Batman Beyond, although it was a lot of cr*p most of the time, had better episodes (although they were the ones that focused on B:TAS characters like Mr. Freeze or focused Bruce Wayne) The closest we got to "you don't see that on Saturday morning TV" was the comment about John's race in "Legends"

-Some episodes are padded so they run on longer, especially in "The Brave and the Bold" and "Metamorphesis" which didn't need to be two-parters.

-The dialouge is awful in most episodes. Notably the writers of some of the best S:TAS and B:TAS episodes aren't working on Justice League.

What almost unforgivable:

-No focus on some team members. It's incredibly ridiculous that we still have yet to learn the true identities and origins of Flash and Hawkgirl on camera.

-Too many team members that aren't needed in some episodes. Do we even need the Flash in some of the episodes? And Superman and J'onn were unessessary in Metamorphisis other than getting their butts kicked by a Ghostbusters wannabe villian.

-The almost utter lack of comedy. sure, we get a Playboy joke and a funny line from Flash every once and awhile, but nothing too funny in the way of humor. Where is Dini when you need him? Even in Batman Beyond he produced some meorable and hilarious moments (Batman: the Musical is the most notable.)

Overall: The best episodes of JL only equal the 'average' episodes of other DC-U toons because of cr*ppy writing. Get better writers ASAP! The show would 75% better if we got soe of the old B:TAS writers on board.

DCU Bat

10-22-2002, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by ClockStomper
The poor usage/lack of creator knowladge of the JLers super powers. Flash being out runing by a speeding truck? Super Speed has been shown to be an incredible power in the comics.

I thought it was clear that Flash was just toying with that speeding truck and didn't want to outrun it yet :confused:

Frank White

10-22-2002, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by DCU Bat
I Thought the only reason why X-men TAS was "mature" was because the stories where taken directly from the comics, now if did something like that, It woud naturally be good with the exception of Originality.

Only some of the stories were taken from the comics, besides, JL isn't exempt from this, The Enemy Below and In Blackest Night were both adaptations of comic stories.

As much as I liked X-men TAS, It became too confusing. For instance, One morning I saw a good episode that was about Professor X and Jaggurnaut. Then my mom decided for us to go for a weeks vaction, One week later when I return to watch the ep. Woosh! Phoenix Saga part 4!! I was going what the heck happened!?!? Jeez every Marvel character who get's an alien symbiot suddenly becomes a God!

You were probably watching when it was 5 days a week, but anyway I like continuing story lines, it forms cohesiveness in the series

Keep in mind, I don't follow comics very well, So I can't imagine what will happen if they try to explain Crisis of Infinate Earths, or how Batman broke his back, or how Superman Died or how Green Lantern goes to New york with his gay assistant.

They couldn't explain Crisis on Infinate Earths because there is no need for it

Green Latern's gay assistant?

Another thing, Why do you call JL a kids show? Yah, I admit some of the dilouge seems perfect for kids, but they did explore adult issues like Aquman cutting off his hand or Hades lusting for Hippolyta or Simon Stagg creepyness towards his Daughter. I sure woudn't call this a kids show!

How is Aquaman cutting off his hand an adult theme? OK, he wanted to save his son, and? Am I supposed to be impressed?

Simon Stagg was just creepy