Bruce Wayne...does he exist?

[Barb Gordon]

No, this isn't a thread wondering if there is a real Bruce Wayne in the actual world. It's more of a, is there an actual Bruce Wayne, or only a Batman, kind of a thread. Do you really think that "Bruce Wayne" is just a daily mask that The Batman slips on as a disguise? Or do you think that Bruce Wayne may really be a person, but one that keeps getting buried by the alter ego, Batman?

~Barb

[Marc]

I like to think that it's really Batman pretending to be Bruce Wayne, not the other way around. In essence, Bruce "died" along with his parents, and the Bat took his place.

[czyznyck99]

Hmmm, this one is a toughie.

I would say that Batman is the real person, and Bruce Wayne is the persona. Much in the way that Mr. Freeze is portrayed as the enemy of vengeance in the animated series, I think in the comics Batman is the living dream of the child of Bruce Wayne, who won't stand to see innocents destroyed the way his was when his parents were killed. As Batman, he acts as the surrogate father to kids like Dick Grayson, Jason Tood, and Tim Drake, and the rest of Gotham. It wouldn't matter if Bruce were rich or poor, I think he would have found some way to live out his "revenge." His Bruce Wayne image and responsibility has disciplined Batman from lashing out (well, in most cases :rolleyes: ). But Batman is in charge.

Later.

[SilentBob173]

I would say that there is a Bruce Wayne, but batman wins every time.

If you've ever read 'The Dark Knight returns", there's a wonderful sequence where the retired Bruce is having a conversation with the Batman. Batman tells him that he cannot fight the urge, and that sooner or later, he will give in.

I think you can guess how that went.

[The Electric Knight]

Short answer 'no' with a 'but', long answer 'yes' with an 'if'

:D

No really...

I don't think it's as simple as "Bruce Wayne is the mask". I think it's far more complex than that, and to just name Bruce as an act is a little demeaning. After all...Batman is an alter ego which stemmed from Bruce. This is how I see it.. Eventually it's evolved to a point where it's become more important, more dominating than what one would usually 'consider' his normal life. As Batman, Bruce rids himself of his place in society, his "citizen" qualities, and is on a mission. That mission is what takes over, becomes the only clear and important thing. This mission has manifested for so long, every year becoming more and more overcoming, to the point where Bruce feels he has to put on a persona in the public.

In essence, I believe, the true "Bruce" is lost somewhere in the middle. This is a person he only shows to those extremely close to him, in private. Barbara, Dick, Alfred, and Andrea in MOTP. It's one that is scarred deeply, but not overwhelmed. However, he doesn't let his true self out much due to what can happen to those people, thus distancing himself. So really, you have one person who filters themselves into two personas...one a cover, the other the realisation of a primary goal in life, which has taken over as priority...one imprinted into the true persona from the age of eight.

I hope that makes sense to everybody, but that's how I feel. They are both essentially "half-masks", one more important than the other.

[Weatherman]

"Half-masks" I like that idea. :)


Both sides seem to be masking the other. Batman is the man Bruce wants to be and Bruce is the man Batman needs to be. Can't have one without the other.

[TimTwoFace]

Hmmm...I've seen this topic addressed or hinted at in many comics and other stories...and BATMAN FOREVER, actually.

"Can Bruce Wayne and Batman co-exist? We'll find out today!"

Me, I think that Bruce Wayne isn't just a mask - it's just the less dominant side of his personality. Yes, Batman IS the one usually in control, and Bruce Wayne is more of a ploy just to keep up appearances and as another weapon in his arsenal on his war on crime...but really, I think at the same time, part of Batman wants to have a "normal" life. That's where Bruce Wayne comes in - that's the part of him that likes to have people at his side - a surrogate family, if you will.

:)

-Tim

[LiquidXIR]

Heh almost sounds like the Hulk. I semi-disagree. Bruce knows all this, I'm not to sure about having a Batman personality at all but I figure Bruce isn't controlled by it for a simple reason, he is it. He is that drive, he uses the name of Bruce Wayne to further his goals. You can call him Batwayne really because there's no split in persona, same man going for the same goals.

[Reed Richards]

only the batman

whereas Superman is almost the exact opposite

he is ALWAYS clark but sometimes plays as Superman

read Wonder Woman: The Spirit of Truth for a good lesson in that

[Trent Lane]

Bruce Wayne is the "mask" to me. Like it's been said, Bruce pretty much died as his parents laid in that dark alley. Batman is the replacement. As far as the animated universe is concerned, Batman was almost rid of when Bruce found Andrea, I think. But when she left him, a big part of the remaining Bruce Wayne persona left with her and he was from then on The Batman...

[The Electric Knight]

I gave this a lot more thought after my last post, and to elaborate...

IMO, Batman/Bruce Wayne is perhaps one of the greatest victims of society. Think about it, we all "filter" our true selves depending on our surroundings, what people we are with, etc etc, to adjust accordingly. In this sense, often our inner self is a little watered down with how we believe we should act in these situations. It's a strong aspect of society - society has a huge impact on who we become as opposed to who we might have otherwise become.

With Batman we see that idea taken to an extreme. Society - the crime part of it to be exact, had a drastic, deep and disturbing effect on young Bruce Wayne - one which can never be healed. And even though Batman breaks many rules, he still "filters" himself according to society - to try and become the stereotype of a millionaire playboy, because it is expected of him, and on the other end of the spectrum, being more 'free' but still having to be mysterious, dark and fearful (although he tends to like this one more ;)).

It seems to be kind of a running theme throughout the supporting cast as well. Many characters have been victims of the ways of the world, have in a sense "overcome" it to become something greater, but are still controlled very much by the initial thing which changed them, depsite trying not to be. Selina, growing up an orphan, Joker growing up as a troubled comedian (in Killing Joke), Jonathan Crane being bullied, etc etc.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Darwyn Cooke also had an interesting take on this question in his Batman: Ego one-shot. The story eventually concludes that each side needs the other. Batman exists to give Bruce's anger form and action, while Bruce exists to ensure Batman's anger does not run out of control and turn him into an outright killer. I think I like this interpretation the most.

I'm also not positive that one can separate the two as cleanly as anybody would like. IMO, you can't find the line where Batman ends and Bruce begins.

-- Ed/Ace

[Barb Gordon]

Exactly, the line seperating where one ends, and one begins, is just a big blur. Sometimes I wonder if maybe Bruce Wayne died with his parents, but there's something there that makes you realize that he's still there. I find Batman to be the dominating force, two sides of one person. Not necessarily a good and bad side, though pretty close. More like an innocent and dark side. He is Bruce Wayne, to an extent, but I think Bruce Wayne would rather be Batman for most of the time. He'd play one role instead of both to where the line that may seperate his two directions melds into one. Bruce Wayne is the Batman, and the Batman is Bruce Wayne. But he keeps going further and further into Batman in a way that, though Bruce Wayne is there, he is the Batman, and now all there is, is the Batman.

~Barb

[The Guitar Slayer]

The yin and yang symbol can be used to describe Bruce Wayne/Batman. Also, think of the Star Trek episode where Kirk's personality is split between two of him. To be balance, there needs to be both present.

Bruce Wayne himself hates violence. He thinks there is a better way to do things. He feels sympathy and sadness, and, as long as he doesn't stew in his own juices, he likes a good time once in a while.

Batman's method of operation includes violence. His superior intelligence and physical prowess makes him the ultimate earthly warrior. He has a black and white sense of justice.

Without Batman driving him, Bruce Wayne would just be another playboy, moping around, making and spending his money on meaningless things. Batman would be a killing machine without Bruce Wayne's humanity. He'd be a power-hungry monster, not thinking twice about who did the crime and why. Bruce Wayne sees the people Batman catches, and decides for the Bat whether they really deserve to be caught by the cops. If a man is caught stealing bread for a starving family, it's Bruce Wayne who leaves the money on the counter, though in the form of Batman.

If Batman was just Batman, we wouldn't like him much. If Bruce Wayne was just Bruce Wayne, we wouldn't care about him. What attracts us to him is the duality and balance. It's all the more interesting when the balance goes out of whack and we see him struggle to regain equilibrium.

[rabidkittyspike]

Well it depends on how you look at it….

If Bruce has a split personality then there are two people – Bruce and Batman – in conflict

Bruce created Batman and then those elements of his personality took over – can be
*No – Bruce as a person is totally fake – he doesn’t even see himself as Bruce
*Or yes – Bruce’s personality is that of Batman and he just created a public persona to cover for his true self

I always felt the truth lies somewhere in the middle – Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne –
*Bruce accentuates elements of his personality while being Batman
*Bruce accentuates and embellishes the lighter elements of his personality and covers others to create a public image of who he is to throw off suspision
*Who Bruce is - is really somewhere in the middle and he only lets those close to him see who he truly is

Any way you look at it the man has issues - but don't we all

[Weatherman]

I remeber this being a quote from Paul Dini, paraphrased as I don't have the book with me right now, from Batman: Animated "The temptation is not to give up being batman like in the movies but to give up being Bruce Wayne and give in to the darkness completely".
Batman/Bruce need each other to avoid going over the edge. There's no way that Batman could stop being Bruce Wayne, as that's who he is. Bruce Wayne may not be the dominant side of his personality, but without it he would just be a mindless, souless machine. Bruce gives Batman a grounding in humanity that keeps the darkness from consuming him entirely.

[ZorBrak]

It all depends on how you look at it, in my eyes Batman sees Bruce as dead...to him I think he died in the alley with his parents, from that moment on he "faked" his public life.

[Nightwing]

In addition to the general stance everyone seems to take here, I'd also like to add something.

Everyone seems to be separating Bruce and Batman. But since Batman is so strong, why is it that Bruce exists at all? That might be the question for the opinion in favor of how Bruce still exists. And to me, in the BTAS/TNBSA world, the answer to that involved compassion.

Batman makes sure he's resourcefull to do what Batman does, so in a decision where he could save a person's life, or go after the perpetrator, he'll chose to save the person. Even though that's still Batman through and through, I thinkt there is still that bit of compassion in Batman that keeps Bruce around, even if it only makes up 10-20% of the entire man himself.

As sick as he is, he still has some heart left in him, even if it doesn't seem like a very large amount. Everyone has that.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Originally posted by Nightwing
As sick as he is, he still has some heart left in him, even if it doesn't seem like a very large amount. Everyone has that.

To pick another example of this, how about the TNBA episode "Old Wounds?"

Batman is the persona that can intimidate a thug in front of his family; Bruce Wayne is the one that can give that same thug a job and asks about his son.

To me, that was one of the defining moments of Batman as a character in the Animated Age, despite the fact that Batman isn't even in the scene at the time.

-- Ed/Ace

[Calico]

The way I look at it is that Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered and it was Bruce Wayne who swore vengeance on their graves and still carries that pain around with him. If there were no Bruce Wayne there would be no pain and that's what drives Batman forward. Batman was created to complete the task and shelter him from the trauma of his childhood but giving completely into it would totally defeat the purpose.

Why would Batman continue to place roses at the site of the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents?


Originally posted by The Guitar Slayer
If Batman was just Batman, we wouldn't like him much. If Bruce Wayne was just Bruce Wayne, we wouldn't care about him. What attracts us to him is the duality and balance. It's all the more interesting when the balance goes out of whack and we see him struggle to regain equilibrium.

Yeah, what she said! :D

[Err]

I think there is at least 1 Bruce Wayne out there.

I also believe he died with his parents and the Bat took over :p :bosko: :confused: :confused:

[Patrick Bateman]

I have to disagree with everyone who said that a part of Bruce Wayne or all of Bruce Wayne died with his parents. Deep down, he still feels hapiness, but he holds it back. It's sometimes like he doesn't want to be happy because he thinks he shouldn't. It's like he feels guilty for smiling because he feels like he would moving on and accepting his parents murder. He just can't. He is afraid to let go of the anger and hurt because to him that would be the same as saying "My parents are dead, big deal." Bruce does still exist very much so. He comes to the surface occasionally. Here are some examples to prove my point:

In the Batman Beyond episode "Blast From the Past", he looks back on all of his relationships, and you can almost see him regret pursuing justice instead of hapiness with Barbara or Talia.

In the book "Robin: Year One", Alfred speaks about hearing laughter come from the Batcave and about how Dick was the one person who could make Bruce smile.

You see, those are things that Batman wouldn't do. So Bruce still has to exist, or else he would have never felt the hurt from losing all of his potential wives, or the joy of having a boy who was like a son when he brought Dick into his life.

[Barb Gordon]

I think the best example that deals well with the thought that there is of course a Bruce Wayne, but that he may feel obligated to never give up being Batman, is Mask of the Phantasm. More specifically, the scene at the cemetary when it's raining and Bruce is poring out his soul to his parent's tombstone. Right there seemed like such a defining moment in the animated continuum that there was indeed a Bruce Wayne...and boy does he have major emotional baggage.

~Barb

[BatChick]

Hopefully this will all make sense. It's kinda late here. So if it doesn't I apoligize.


I think there is a Bruce Wayne. He just uses the Batman to protect him. Look at the recent Fugitive stoyline. Batman got rid of Bruce Wayne until he could deal with the fact that he had lost yet another person close to him. Batman is the stronger part of Bruce's personality. Bur Bruce is there. Like Barb said he just has a lot of emotional bagagge. And when it gets to be too much he takes a mental vacation if you will. Batman gets to be in control.

And obviously Bruce couldn't go out and do what Batman does. No one would take him seriously. Can anyone honestly picture a guy in a suit and tie going after say the Joker? No Bruce knew to carry out his "mission he'd have to create another part of his personality. Hence the Batman.

Though I do think the Batman was born on the night his parents were killed. He was just dormant for years, until Bruce was properly trained.

I also find it extremely interesting that in his own mind Bruce Wayne doesn't exist as a part of him. It is as if he is another person in the room. It's like Bruce tells Terry in Batman Beyond when Terry asked him how he knew he wasn't going crazy; and I'm gonna paraphaze cause I don't remember it exactly.

B: The voices called me Bruce. I don't do that.
T: What do you call yourself? To which Bruce just gives Terry a look.
T: Oh yeah you would. But that's my name now.
B: Tell that to my subconscious.

I have to agree with that. Bruce doesn't think of himself as Bruce Wayne. He thinks of himself as Batman. But that doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

[James]

I've always seen them as the same thing.

I know there is this philosophical thought that Bruce is the alter ego to Batman and it's a great idea one that I like it theory, it just doesn't really fit. I don't think there are two seperate identities.

There is just Bruce Wayne. Who is the Batman.

Yes, Bruce creates a false identity with all but his closest friends to cover his motives, but that doesn't to me say that Bruce is merely that fasade (sp).

Bruce just hides his intentions behind the false character. But that is Bruce. Bruce created the Batman - I don't go for the philosophical conjecture that the Batman created Bruce.

I don't think people give Bruce enough credit. He created his ego over years of training, building the Batman, nurturing him, even. Same goes for 'Party Bruce'.

Both 'Party Bruce' and 'Batman' have been created by Bruce Wayne to carry out his need of vengence on the criminal community. 'Party Bruce' and 'Batman' are just creations of Bruce Wayne.

In the end there is only Bruce - to me, that's a point that people (including many writers) are happy to miss..

[rabidkittyspike]

SJJ - YES - I couldn't have said it better - and I tried

I think the writers forget that Bruce studied acting and stage makeup to use in his pursuit of justice – I don’t really read the comics much, but in B:TAS they show this fact on more than one occasion – Party Bruce and Batman are simply acting roles that Bruce has created as tools to assist in his goal

That’s my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it