The Flash can beat anybody... [Archive]

Jor-El

07-12-2002, 10:46 AM

Martianman,

Let me just say that if we are dealing with the cartoon editions of the characters, what you say has a lot of validity. Batman could very easily out-think the Flash and not even because Batman's is the super-genius that everyone perceives him to be, but rather because the Flash on this show does not think at all.

In the current comics, when Wally is being written more maturely, there's no way that Batman could beat him. And J'Onn couldn't beat him either. I'm not talking about a pre-meditated fight in which Batman and/or J'Onn had time to strategize or for all you TOWER OF BABEL fans, time for Batman to create ways to take down each Leaguer. I'm talking about a spur of the moment, completely unexpected punching match. Wally would take them down before they knew what had hit him.

And just so everyone knows, the Flash is currently appreciably faster than Superman. But once again, I deal too much into the reign of comics. As far as the cartoon goes, you can pretty much disregard all my comments due to the fact that, in the cartoon, nobody stands a chance against Batman because of the fantastic (I use the word to mean "unbelievable" and NOT as "great" or "awesome") way he is written.

TheGothsandman

07-12-2002, 12:01 PM

All I have to say is, if the justice league started a battle with one another; the flash would be far from the victor. It would be Batman standing, or at least moving when its done. He has taken out most of the leaguers before they could get to him. He would merely use everyone's power against them if he did not have a direct weakness for all of them.

Martianman606

07-13-2002, 04:40 PM

Barry Allen,

I'm talking about the cartoon version. In the cartoon version, I think very much of what I said in this thread is true except for one thing. Batman would definatly take hime down. Not maybe take him down - definatly. And I never said that Superman was as fast as the Flash. I said that the Flash was faster them him. I didn't say that he was faster then him by alot, but I said he was faster then him.

TuxedoKamen

07-13-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Martianman606
NO WAY! Are you crazy? Yea right! The Martian Manhunter could turn transparent and just take him out w/ his telepathy. And Superman is as fast as The Flash (well, almost) and plus he has super strength. And GL has a a Green Lantern Power Ring. I think that he can take down anybody w/ super speed pretty easily. Did you see The Brave and the Bold part 1? Green Lantern took him down. I don't know about Batman, but all I know is that Batman is alot smarter the The Flash, so it would be a close call.

You're forgetting that we're talking about comic Flash, who is capable of vibrating his molecules so fast that anything he passes through explodes. Of all the JL members, only GL could defend against this (mabye). Superman is as fast, but he can't vibrate, and all his strength is moot against a vibrating Flash. He's have to heat vision him or freeze him, which means that he'd have to catch him with the blast. GL on the show hit him because he wasn't vibrating. No other reason. I've pondered this myself, and wondered if the reason Flash was kept clear of Doomsday during his first appearance was because he could have just ran right through him and blew him to peices. Would this have worked?

Sapphic Amazon

07-14-2002, 05:15 AM

Technically, most heroes can defeat one another (and in the comics have) depending on who initiates the battle, who employs their powers the best per each situation and who uses their brain regarding improvisation. Superman can defeat every other JL member. So can Martian Manhunter. So can Green Lantern. So can Wonder Woman, especially if she possesses a magic lasso that can do all the things it has done in the past. Flash could win, if he has the speed powers he displays in the comics. Hawkgirl couldn't beat everyone. Batman can't either, if he is not allowed time to develop and devise some brilliant plan of attack and incorporate the necessary weaponry.

Drop Batman in the middle of the desert, jungle, downtown Metropolis, etc. along with Superman and tell them to fight, Batman will always lose. Same as with a number of the JL members when Batman is paired against them. Give Batman a day or two to plan, to acquire the needed technology to win, he can and probably will triumph. Usually, these versus scenarios depend mostly on the intelligence displayed by each pugilist when powers aren't totally lop-sided and who has the element of surprise. Flash could win, given his powers in the comics, but he still needs to use his brain to truly be successful, something he doesn't always manage, most notably in the cartoon.

Personally, since almost any hero can beat almost any other hero (just ask a writer who he/she chooses to win and they will think up a plausible reason for it) I think the better matchups involve the supporting characters. I'd like to see a couple of reporters from the cartoons go at it- Lois Lane vs. Snapper Carr. For what it's worth, my money is on Lois as I suspect she'll fight dirty if necessary. Also, Snapper's an idiot. (And I hear he throws punches like a little girl, or at least like your average NBA player.)

Again, in the world of fantasy fighting, the thinking combatant can often have the edge over someone more powerful. This mostly takes place to please, through a vicarious feeling of empowerment, the majority of readers or viewers who would get their ass kicked by any NFL lineman even if they had twice his I.Q. (The same theory applies to good almost always triumphing over evil in fiction.) In real life when two people square off, where one guy has superior strength or fighting skills, he will almost always win, no matter how dumb he is or how smart his opponent is. As an example of this, the pen may be mightier than the sword, but not in a swordfight.

Remember, when watching a movie if you happen to come across some Harrison Ford, Bruce Willis, Tom Cruise-type beat up a hulking bouncer, enraged psychopath or expert martial artist, it is only because the screenplay writer said he could. Again, Batman-like heroes are allowed to devise ingenius plans to win, otherwise they'd simply always have their heads handed to them by the stronger, faster, more invulnerable, multi-powered characters. It would be like one soldier given a machine gun and the other being handed a pair of brass knuckles- Who do you think is going to win? Which weapon would you prefer in a fight against the other? I believe I may have spent little time here on the initial question about the fighting abilities of the Flash, but c'est la vie. (Huh, veered off subject again and all over the map. I knew I should've taken that left turn at Albuquerque.)

Sapphic Amazon

Chris Wood

07-14-2002, 06:33 AM

The Flash is lucky if he can beat the natural laws of physics and somehow keep his costume from ripping apart while he's running 500 miles an hour. The police probably know him as the Flasher.

Martianman606

07-14-2002, 10:16 AM

Tuxedo Kamen,

When the Martian Manhunter becomes transparent, there's nothing to pass through! If the Flash were capable of passing through J'onn, then there would be no point to having the whole transparent power knowing that something can pass through you. In a one on one fight, all J'onn would have to do would to just stay transparent the whole time so the Flash wouldn't blow him up. Simple as that.

TheGothsandman

07-14-2002, 11:40 AM

So it would come to who/what would tire first(between flash, and manhunter) martian's mind, or the flash's body.

I say that about the martian's mind because it must envolve some for of mental control, and concentration.

MILatino

07-14-2002, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Two-Face
I didn't say the Flash COULD'NT do it, I said he probably wouldn't. That's the problem with superheros- too much of them are afraid to kill.

First, it's not a "problem," it's a virtue. Second, they're not afraid; they know it's wrong to kill so they don't do it.

Your post sounds as though it's a bad thing they don't kill. And for that, I'm going to post a whole other thread to continue that discussion.

Thanks for planting the seed, Two-Face.

SimonMoon5

07-15-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Desslar
The Flash is lucky if he can beat the natural laws of physics and somehow keep his costume from ripping apart while he's running 500 miles an hour. The police probably know him as the Flasher.

The current version of the Flash in the comics summons his costume from "the Speed Force" which is generally immune to such pesky things as physics and logic.

Before the Speed Force was introduced, the Flashes had a "friction-proof aura" which surrounded their bodies and which presumably protected their costumes from physics.

SolidLiquidFox

07-15-2002, 12:04 PM

This is the kind of thread discussion that usually goes back to the winner being Batman.

Batman is just too well prepared in both comics and cartoons for most situations. I am sure that he has considered the possibility of going into a mission with the JL and having the bad guy mentally control his team member(s).

TuxedoKamen

07-15-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Martianman606
Tuxedo Kamen,

When the Martian Manhunter becomes transparent, there's nothing to pass through! If the Flash were capable of passing through J'onn, then there would be no point to having the whole transparent power knowing that something can pass through you. In a one on one fight, all J'onn would have to do would to just stay transparent the whole time so the Flash wouldn't blow him up. Simple as that.

Okay, so accepting J'onn (and Batman, according to these writers), could Wally take out everyone else using his vibration-of-destruction technique?

Frank White

07-15-2002, 10:06 PM

Thats what I theorize, although I think the Flash is so fast that he could kill J'ohnn before he had a chance to become intangible.

Jor-El

07-15-2002, 10:45 PM

Once again, Batman could not beat the Flash in a spur-of-the-moment fight. Wally could blow up Batman's head before Batman had the time to implement any of his plans. If Batman is not suspecting Wally to kill him, Batman will be helpless. That's it. Batman CANNOT win in a spontaneous fight. And the only reason that Batman took out Flash in a TOWER OF BABEL was because he didn't take Flash out face to face. So forget all those "plans" because they're unfair. In a fight, one on one, Batman simply could not out-think Flash and I wish you guys would all accept that.

I like Batman too, but he does not have a direct link to the Speed Force.

Martianman606

07-16-2002, 07:46 AM

So your saying that the Flash is faster then a Martian's mind, Frank White? Martian's are one of the smartest being's in the universe and I bet all of them are alot smarter than Wally West. J'onn know's what Wally is capable of - and he's going to take all he can to his advantage.

Martianman606

07-16-2002, 07:49 AM

I also agree w/ Barry Allen on the whole Batman vs. The Flash thing. All of you people think that Batman is sooo smart and he can take down anyone. No - it's not like that. Batman might be smart - but not that smart. I mean, he is a genius but the were talking about the Flash here - come on now people. He's the fastest man alive - you think anyone w/ out superpower's could beat him one on one?

Frank White

07-16-2002, 03:41 PM

Basically, J'ohnn doesnt just turn off and turn on his psychic powers, he has to do a some concentration, I think the Flash could get him before he could attempt a psychic attack.

Martianman606

07-16-2002, 06:06 PM

Yea, but don't forgot that the Flash has to gain some speed before he does the whole molecuel thing. I think that he's going to have to run a long time to do that move, on account that he has to go as fast as to go through some one. That definatly gives him enough time.

Jor-El

07-17-2002, 02:37 AM

Actually, Wally doesn't need to be running at all to vibrate his molecules and blow up J'Onn's brain. It's nearly effortless.

Or if you want to look at it another way, Wally can steal J'Onn's speed and J'Onn won't be able to move and then Wally can kill J'Onn.

I appreciate you defending me in the question of Wally being able to kill Batman, but I would be wrong to not point out how effortlessly he could also knock off J'Onn.

Martianman606

07-17-2002, 07:33 AM

Barry Allen,

If it was that easy, wouldn't he be using it like every time when he's up against a supervillian? And wouldn't he be known for it?

TuxedoKamen

07-17-2002, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Martianman606
Barry Allen,

If it was that easy, wouldn't he be using it like every time when he's up against a supervillian? And wouldn't he be known for it?

No...because he doesn't want to blow every single villian to pieces. When he decides to use his vibration power in this manner, he can't do anything short of blowing a body(part) to nothing...instantly. For someone who doesn't want to kill or maim if it can be avoided, this makes this a power-of-last-resort.

Martianman606

07-17-2002, 01:07 PM

Barry Allen

How is that even possible? To go through a fax machine he has to gain speed (Justice League Aventures #7) and when it comes time going through someone then he doesn't have to gain any speed at all? That's not physically possible even for The Flash.

Jor-El

07-17-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Martianman606
How is that even possible? To go through a fax machine he has to gain speed (Justice League Aventures #7)Do you mean that he literally faxed himself to another location and traveled the phone lines? Or do you mean he had to build up speed to run through it to blow it up? If it's the first choice, then the writer was taking extreme liberties with the Flash's power... he cannot do that. If it's the second situation, then the writer severely underestimates the power of the Flash.
and when it comes time going through someone then he doesn't have to gain any speed at all?Exactly right. Standing still, Waly can vibrate his molecules fast enough to create explosions.
That's not physically possible even for The Flash. There are dozens of Flash comics that would completely contradict that statement.

Frank White

07-17-2002, 08:18 PM

Anyway.... who can beat the Flash? Impulse? Darkseid? Reverse Flash?

Martianman606

07-18-2002, 10:47 AM

Whatever - I just don't get it.

Jor-El

07-18-2002, 04:08 PM

I hope you'll forgive my rudeness, but what I don't "get" is why you can so easily work out the "logic" in the last Martian brought to Earth from a stray beam of a scientist who can shape-shift, read minds, turn invisible, is vulnerable to fire, can fly, and can lift enormous weights... but you don't "get" Wally's connection to the Speed Force. I'm very sorry, I don't mean to come off so nastily, but if you can get all these other phenomonal powers and abilities, and then become defensive when I tell you what he is capable of, it just makes you look a little childish.

Now, I know that it's hard to read people's true intentions over the Internet because we can't read body language or facial expressions or hear inflections in the voice, but when you said "Whatever - I don't get it" I took it to mean that you were just sick of me trying to tell you and you were slightly offended that I was pointing out that my namesake could beat yours. (A la the 2nd grade arguments "My dad could beat up your dad!")

I apologize for any grief I have apparently caused you, but if I have misinterpreted what you mean, please let me know.

Martianman606

07-18-2002, 07:58 PM

I do know that Wally West is the fastest man alive and that he does have connection to the Speed Force. I just don't get how someone that had an accident with a bunch of chemicals can turn make him so fast into actually passing through someone. I can understand the Martian Manhunter's abilities because not only was he born w/ his power's, but we don't entirely know that martian's don't exist. That's what I like about the Martian Manhunter soooo much - it's not untirely true that martian's aren't real. But I do have a disbeleif about someone having a little "accident in the lab" could all of a sudden make him so fast to actually give him the chance to run throgh someone. That's what I got so defended about - it kind of takes the whole point out of being a superhero. I mean, the Flash is a good person and all and he is a true hero, but what his power is and how he got his power is some what unfair. And I also do understand that he didn't decide to get the power of superspeed - it was kind of just gaven to him.

When I say "Whatever -- I just don't get it", it's saying that I actually don't get it. I know that your right and I know what the Flash is capable of, but I still just don't get it.

Jor-El

07-18-2002, 09:11 PM

Fair enough my friend. I'm glad we cleared up any miscommunications. I now see why you were confused once you made your points all up front.

Yes, I agree that Flash getting his powers with chemicals in a lab was strange, and yes, how does being bathed in chemicals cause someone to be super-fast? All valid points on your end and a reasonable argument.

But sometimes in this realm of science fiction, things just are because they are. It's just a simple matter of suspension of belief. In the real world, Wally's accident would've probably killed him. In comics, it gave him and Barry incredible speed. Years later, the fact that the Speed Force was calling out to them both would be revealed and it wasn't JUST the lightning and the chemicals. But that's neither here nor there.

And I apologize for calling you "defensive" because I was getting easily as defensive as you were, if not moreso.

Glad to have worked things out :)

Frank White

07-19-2002, 01:00 AM

The first lightning bolt was actually Barry Allen

Alph

07-19-2002, 04:43 PM

You say that Flash can beat Superman by Vibrating him,but you have to remember that Flash would actually have to touch Supes in order to kill him.And since they are near the same speed(with flash being a little faster) but Superman could hit Flash with a projectile attack long before Flash could touch him(laser vision,or just clap and the sound waves would tear Flash apart).Also,Superman can Fly,giving him a huge advantage.Not to mention,that since this is a "full power" battle,Superman should be at full power as well(meaning he would be his"Pre crisis" self),meaning he's completely indestructible and invulnerable to anything except Kryptonite,magic, and a red sun.So unless Flash's powers are magically oriented,he technically wouldn't be able to even hurt Superman.

Jor-El

07-19-2002, 06:40 PM

Actually, calling this a "full power" fight does not mean that he'd be at pre-Crisis strength since (in a manner of speaking,) the pre-Crisis universe never existed. By "full power" I just took it to mean that we weren't dealing with the dumbed-down versions of the characters that the cartoon features.

And not only is Flash faster than Superman, but he could steal Superman's speed too.

Frank White

07-19-2002, 08:35 PM

He could steal Superman's speed, speed himself up, then make a whirlwind to bring him down to Earth and vibrate through him. In fact in a recent Flash special Jay Garrick raced Superman and Wally and had to steal Superman's speed just to catch up with Wally. And to be honest if the Flash really wanted to kill any of the superhero's he could just go back in time, Wally can go back in time without any aid from machines.

Martianman606

07-21-2002, 08:52 AM

Barry Allen and Frank White,

I think you guy's are totally overestimateing the Flash's powers. Do you guy's really think that he can take down the man - of - steel? He's almost as fast as the Flash and all he would have to do is fly into the air. Then he would just try to zap him with his x-ray vision. If that wouldn't work, he would just throw something. Superman would instinctivly run away from the Flash and then fly. Then he would take him out in the air.

Jor-El

07-21-2002, 05:26 PM

Martianman, be honest. Have you ever read a Flash comic, or are you basing all you know about the Flash from the cartoon, where he is portrayed as a clumsy idiot who can't even catch up to a van?

Even assuming that you meant that Superman would zap Flash with his heat vision from the air, Flash wouldn't have to be caught by it. He could outrun Superman's heat vision, and if not, he could vibrate his molecules and the heat vision would pass through Flash, albeit with "explosive" results, but Flash would still not be hurt. Once again, that assumes that Flash is even caught or has not already stolen Superman's speed.

Martianman606

07-22-2002, 08:05 AM

For your info Barry Allen, I have read a Flash comic book before. And even if I didn't read a Flash comic book, I would still have enough knowledge to know that Superman could take the Flash -not vise versa. Do you konw what your saying? Your saying that the Flash's (Wally West) superspeed, his ability to pass thourgh things and outrun just about anything could take down a man who is almost as fast as him, can fly, has super strength, has heat vision, and a bunch of other stuff? And I don't think we should be saying what they would do and what they wouldn't do. Where not the brains of the show. And finally, you said that the Flash does all of this stuff to Batman, and then you say at the last part "assuming that he has stolen Superman's speed". Like I told you before - in the air, there's not much of a chance that the Flash could steal anything from Supes. And remember the fact that Superman is almost as quick as the Flash. I think that Superman could get in the air before Flash could even lay a finger on him.

Domino

07-22-2002, 09:02 AM

This is an interesting argument, though futile. To have an intelligent dialogue on this matter, you must first agree:

Which versions of Superman and the Flash are you talking about? Golden age, silver age, pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, current, TV versions, movie versions, cartoon versions (and even then, Justice League should be distinguished from Superman's own cartoon)? In game terms? Which game? Mayfair's DC Heroes or the current West End Games' DCU roleplaying game? DC HeroClix? DC OverPower card game?

So many variables, so little time!

Alph

07-22-2002, 05:02 PM

In both the cartoons,Supes would easily win.That goes without saying,of course.

Jor-El

07-22-2002, 08:39 PM

I'll concede that Flash would be pretty well clobbered in the cartoons because not only can he not outrun a van (let's not get into the analysis of him "having fun" or what have you,) but he is caught very easily off-guard by a lot of things. He could be taken down quickly, even by the JL Supes, who gets badly hurt by electrocution. Fine. I'll go for that.

But I've been speaking about the current comics Flash and current comics Superman. I don't know about which incarnations the other posters have been talking about. But I know with absolute certainty that (assuming both are at peak performance levels,) Flash could outrun Superman and steal his speed before Superman had much time to react. That's all. I personally think that Martianman is just slightly biased in his analysis, and maybe I am too.

I'm trying to be as open-minded as possible, and I'm trying to understand what makes you believe that Superman is as fast as Flash. Which comics have you been reading? Because recently, Flash has gotten appreciably faster than he was just two years (our time) ago. Could you have possibly read a Flash comic from a few years back during which Wally wasn't NEARLY as fast and wasn't able to steal speed from others?

And are we both talking about the incarnations of the respective characters that we'd find if we went out today and bought the most recent issues of each character's book? Domino did make an interesting point. Maybe this whole time, we have been disagreeing because we never explicity noted which versions we were debating until now.

Martianman606

07-23-2002, 07:40 AM

Any incarnation you want to talk about Barry. It doesn't matter to me because any incarnation of any Superman I think would be better than the Flash. Superman might be fast - but the Flash is faster. I know that. But, from my opinion, Supes would get in the air faster than the Flash could touch him. And then after that, Superman would take him out air style. And where talking about Wally West right?

Meow

07-23-2002, 11:15 AM

I'd just like to jump in and say something. I think it's pretty much a given that the JL cartoon Flash could be beaten rather easily. (remember when GL punched him in the face and he got knocked out? :rolleyes: You'd think the fastest man alive would be able to avoid that...mind-controled or not ) It seems like everyone agrees that the cartoon Flash can be beaten, BUT if you guys are talking about the COMIC Flash, shouldn't this thread be in the comic board? This board is for discussing the characters from the JL cartoon...not the comics. I don't read many comics, so I can't really comment on whether Flash is unbeatable or not, but from what some of you guys are saying it seems pretty clear that the comic Flash and the JL cartoon Flash are vastly different in the "power" area.

So anyway, maybe this thread should be moved to the comic board since you guys are talking about the COMIC Flash.

Just a thought....

The Avenger

07-23-2002, 01:21 PM

I agree with martian,Superman can pretty much kick the crap out of flash. Supes wouldnt even let Flash touch him. Also, Batman can beat Flash. He wouldnt let him touch him,and bats has a ton of weapons he can beat wally with.

Jor-El

07-23-2002, 06:32 PM

I'm going to pretend that you never seen said that Batman could take down the Flash, Avenger, and we'll proceed with the "regularly scheduled" topic.

Martianman, maybe Meow is right. Maybe this belongs on the comics board. If you want to just end our debate now and agree that JL Flash would be clobbered by JL Superman, and just forget this whole topic, I'll back away if you will. I think it's for the best at this point. I can see that I am not changing your mind on the matter and you are certainly not changing mine. I would hate for this topic to get more "personal" between the two of us and get one another angry over such a small petty topic.

Let's agree to disagree and be done with this topic since we aren't making any other sort of progress.

The Avenger

07-23-2002, 10:09 PM

and why is it bats cant defeat Flash? He's smarter and has gadgets at his disposal. Flash cant defeat the Justice League,cause they have much better powers. Nuff Said.

Frank White

07-23-2002, 10:10 PM

I feel left out.

Jor-El

07-23-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by The Avenger
and why is it bats cant defeat Flash? He's smarter and has gadgets at his disposal. Flash cant defeat the Justice League,cause they have much better powers. Nuff Said. Bats can't defeat the Flash because if Wally really wanted to, Wally could knock off Batman before Batman had time to use his precious gadgets. I can concede to stop fighting with Martianman about Superman, but I refuse to let anyone tell me that Batman could beat the Flash. I'm sorry. I realize that there are a lot of Batman fans on this board and many of you would be much happier to turn this show back into "Batman and friends" and write out the rest of the League completely, but if you honestly believe that in a spur of the moment fight, Batman would be able to take down any of the JL, you are a seriously deluded.

I'm sorry if I'm being rough and rude, but you're just being stubborn. If Batman had time to plan, then yes, he'd stand a shot. But if Flash decided in the middle of an unrelated battle that Batman had to go down, Batman wouldn't be able to defend himself against a man moving at near-light speed. Batman is good, but not that good. I'm sorry to ruin any misconceptions you have about hte characters.

The Avenger

07-23-2002, 10:30 PM

First of all, batman thinks ten steps ahead of wally, so dont tell me he needs time to plan when he's already studied flash before. you're the one being stubborn, with this Flash beating everyone. Besides, Flash dosent even have the heart to face up against the justice league.

Jor-El

07-23-2002, 11:01 PM

Maybe I am being a little bit stubborn. That's not entirely unlike me, but while Batman has studied Flash and could take Flash down from a distance.... *sigh* I don't know why I bother. I'm not getting ANYWHERE with Bat-fans on this issue.

Here's the situation:

Let's say that the League was fighting a real tough bad guy. Let's say, for the sake of this argument, they were fighting the JL version of Star Sapphire, and they were all busy defending nearby civilians and busy trying their best to directly attack her herself. As Batman is getting people out of the way of falling rocks, all the while plotting ways to defeat Sapphire, and then out of the blue, Flash decides on the other end of the street that now is the time he is FINALLY going to take down Batman, Batman simply could not anticipate that. He wouldn't have time to react to guard himself. Batman is not a telepath and he does not move at speeds near light-speed. That's all there is to it.

Once again, if Batman thought that the Flash might attack him, and he had a few minutes to prepare for the battle, it's very possible that Batman would win. But if he wasn't expecting it, he CAN NOT WIN. Flash could beat him, and that's all there is to it.

• WITH TIME TO PREPARE, Batman would probably win, (although I'm only saying so to be somewhat compromising and allow a margin of error on Flash's part)
• WITHOUT TIME TO PREPARE OR WITHOUT WARNING, Flash would have Batman down and out before Batman could reach his gadgets or call for help. That's it. That's the end of the story. I think that's a very fair compromise for our respective warring views.

Nightwing

07-24-2002, 12:47 AM

I don't normally like bringin' in Mod talk on a thread but I wanna say I like and appreciate how you guys are having this debate be intensified, yet calm. :)

Anyway, as a Batman fan overall, we might think I'm going to take the Flash can't beat him stance, but I won't. However, I will express understanding as to why each fan-type always goes for THEIR character to win. :)

And actually, I think Batman fans (even those who write for him) sometimes give him a little TOO much attention in the 'who he can beat' aspect. I mean, I saw some pics and heard some stuff from a cross over where Batman fought Wolverine. Yes, Logan, the ultimate fighting machine. I was like, well I love them both but even though I'm more of a Batman fan, I'm sure he wouldn't win. But he did. :p THEN I was like, zuh??

I think these discussions would work better if we backed away from our fanboy points of view, and tried to think more logically, alongside keeping in mind each character's motivations and ways of thinking and stuff. :)

Jor-El

07-24-2002, 12:25 PM

Nightwing,

Well said! We have all (myself included, even more than some people on occasion!) fought hard for our favorite characters to win these sorts of debates, whether or not they make perfect, logical sense.

I guess what it would really come down to is who is writing the fight. If the writers of the Justice League cartoon were to write this fight, Batman would win because they are all under the impression that every other hero in the world doesn't matter; only Batman does. And if Geoff Johns were writing the fight, Flash would probably win. We basis our own biases on what we've seen from other writers' biases. That's just how it's always been done and always will be.

If we go beyond the biases of writers and our own perceptions, (my perception of Flash derived from the comics and not the embarrassing Flash from the cartoon, and the general perception on this board of Batman as invincible, immortal, and omnipotent from the cartoon,) we can clearly see how this fight would pan out in the real world. A man with speed approaching the speed of light versus a skilled detective, master of dozens of martial arts, billions of dollars in gadgets at his disposal... as impressive as Batman seems, he can't fight a man moving faster than sound. He can't. Nobody can.

I agreed to disagree with Martianman about Superman. That was a fight that was too close, and there were too many variables, too many angles to take, too many powers, and Superman may have been able to catch him.

If Batman ever acquires Kryptonian DNA and has the powers of Superman, I will drop my argument that Batman can beat the Flash. But until then, Flash moves at near-light speed! Do you hear what some of you are saying, and especially Avenger? You're saying that a man (admittedly, an impressive man,) can beat another man who moves faster than sound. Faster than thought.

Ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

Frank White

07-24-2002, 06:49 PM

Just a thought, if Batman can prepare for the fight why can't the Flash? It seems everytime Batman faces an opponet only he's given time to prepare. For instance Batman vs. Superman, everybody says Batman will prepare and bring kryptonite, why can't Superman prepare for the fight too and bring a lead suit.

worlogog

07-25-2002, 03:40 AM

I'm in agreement with Barry Allen in this. Batman cannot and should not beat the Flash (or Supes, WW, GL, MM) in a spur-of-the-moment fight. Sure he may have plans to defeat the Flash, but he doesn't carry his Flash protocols in his utility belt. If he has to return to the Batcave to grab the necessary equipment or to activate the plan, then that would be considered prep-time. Without prep, there is no way that Batman can overcome being knocked out a nanosecond into the fight. Even with prep, Batman should still be hard-pressed to win unless he also gets the element of surprise (realistically, that is).

The Flash's speed, speed-related tricks, and speed-draining ability are nasty (comics version of course... the cartoon version is just SLOW). If the Flash used his powers to full effect, any of the Justice Leaguers would have a hard time taking him down, including Superman. The best bets are Supes and MM because they are fast enough or versatile enough that eventually they may tag him.