Human clones...the hot new toy this holiday season?

[I.R Joey]

They're talking about cloning humans by this fall, and I for one am frightened.

Have any of you read the Time Machine by Well's, this is what I fear. The rich would be able to pay for their children to be genetically enhanced, IE greater mental capacity, enhansed athletic ability etc. While the poor do not have these options and are forced to compete on a completly natural level. I mean who knows what would be the result? Or how about this scenario a child is cloned from the DNA of Adolf hitler. He goes about his life like a normal child, but people really do hate him...like honestly wish that every atom of his body was killed. He wouldn't understand it and would live in isolation, with nobody loving him, and being treated with disdain for things he never did. How would the parent explain this to his/her child when they ask how come everyone hates them?

I believe that we are trying to play God without the wisdom, or judgement of the creator. The idea of Eugenics scare me. I mean the racists, and the narscist are going to love this.Considering the relative immature nature of our early 20th century world (we want our way and we want it now) it is like giving a gun to a child. How can we afford to weild what is perhaps one natures most powerful forces, when we are not even at peace with outrselves when we're still killing eachother over stupid things like skin color, beliefs, and money?

[Nightwing]

I don't want to be "afraid of technology and the exploration of it," as advocates of the human clone thing say everyone else is. But I'm still against the human cloning thing. My reason is, I just don't see a valid reason to do it. I got nothing!

If you wanna clone animals, fine. But this human thing is going the distance a bit too quickly if you ask me. Simma down nah scientists! Simma down nah!!

Clone humans so you can have a body bank in case you need an organ or limb? Well yeah that's a good thought, but how would you go about doing that? You'd have to make the clone around when the original baby was born so they can be around the same age and even if you did that, who's gonna tell clone boy he's just a "spare"?

I want scientists to expand their knowledge so they can learn more about us and everything (because there's too much we don't know, and knowledge is beneficial) but it almost feels like the only motivations on human clones is crap like fame, money, recognition. Ya know, crap like that.

[James Harvey]

The furthest they should go is human organs, and only for emergencies. If a 2 year old kid is in liver failure and needs a replacement asap, then I think that is where human cloning can be useful. But whole people cloned? No, no, no.

[Trent Lane]

Even for purposes of organ transplants, I'm not too sure. The way my beliefs are, I think they should just leave it all alone. Like mentioned before, doing this is like trying to play God, and NO one needs to do that, unless it's the big guy Himself...

[Psycho Fox]

My fears is the military applications of genetics. This will make germ warfare easier and that is nothing compared to test tube soliders. Think about it they can have custom made soliders. Or use it to program animals I.E a Bear programed to be aggressive give it human gens so it knows how to hold and fire a gun and understand orders... this would be a super gorilla fighter due to power & size plus supprize the enemy won't waste bullets on animials till they realize they attack them.

This techonology has more applications for evil then good.

[Jowy Blight]

I don't think its for humans to play God. Do we really need clones? What if a group of terorists used the cloning to make super enhansed verison's of themselfs and made an army. Who know what cloning could do to the clone itself. They could go crazy after an amount of time. Who knows what the military could do with this.

A lot of other things a possible too. We have no reason to clone, so I don't think we should.

[DR. BELCH]

You know, the sheep they cloned in Scotland is showing signs of aging. It seems the cells, which were taken from an adult sheep, are deteriorating, and the poor dear suffers from arthritis in her knees. Imagine that happening to human clones, withering from young men and women to old geezers in a matter of weeks or months! :eek:

If you go to bed with your clone, is is gay love, incest, or autoerotiscism? :p

If your clone is "born" as an adult, presumably it wouldn't have a navel...so there'd be some way to tell the original and copy apart. Really, two ways, unless one's mother was a rabid anti-circ....

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Yes, the biggest problems I see with it is the "altered" albility of a clone. With added strengh and intelligence, we natural humans who made the clone on the first place may have competition. But how would the clone feel about being a clone? With hieghted albilities could he go and try to get vengance? Are we sure we can treat clones equally? What if we confuse a good person/bad clone, bad clone/good person and punish the wrong one?

....some questions there could sound trivial, but I think they are points to review as well. I do not think humanity should do this; we can only raise problems from it.

[The Mad Hatter]

Beyond the whole "is the very idea of cloning humans good or not," lies another issue touched on by a few posters: we haven't perfected cloning yet. To get Dolly, researchers had to try and fail over 500 times, all the while producing dead animals or animals with horrible deformities. The process has improved a lot since then--I think the latest techniques manage to avoid premature aging--but it still takes scores of tries to get one viable animal. And considering that they're going to birth the kids throug the womb... that's a lot of women who get to go through the heartbreak of the "failures."

So even if one doesn't mind human cloning (it gives me the creeps, actually), it's still far too early in the technology to try it. These scientists just seem to be gloryhogs who want to say they were the first to clone a person.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if other groups of scientists were already trying it. We didn't know about Dolly till she was trotted out for us...

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
So even if one doesn't mind human cloning (it gives me the creeps, actually), it's still far too early in the technology to try it. These scientists just seem to be gloryhogs who want to say they were the first to clone a person.

Excellent point. Regardless of whether cloning, once perfected, is acceptable, this rush to do it regardless of the suffering it produces in the failed clones is horrifying.

Though, in a way, I'm glad that these scientists are at least being public about it. As Hatter also notes, there may be many others working secretly, and perfectly willing to do inhuman things to the "failed clones" in an attempt to keep that research secret.

Sigh. Just another sphere in which man can barbaric while pretending to be altruistic. The spirit of Mengele lives. . .

[DR. BELCH]

--it'd be something equally as Frankenstein-esque...like brain transplants. Imagine how complicated that would get...old people cheating death by splicing their brains into young corpses...or criminals changing their identity by assuming not just a new name, but an entirely new body. Would double jeopardy laws apply in court? Could a "transcorpused" person be executed for a crime, if their body is technically innocent? Imagine seeing a deceased loved one on a street corner and having to restrain oneself from running over to greet him/her. Not to mention it would make sex-change operations very interesting..."No, no, the body was always a woman. But my brain used to be in a man." That's sick on a whole new level!

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

....I fear for humanity, because if we do the get-go with cloning, this would certainly be the end result of what you people siad; humans have the luck to have the worst happen to them. It'd be interesting to see what new laws they put in-and as for brain transplants, I'd hate to see a room where they keep brains waiting for a body.

The scientists may be making it public only so the masses cannot get angry or confused about the thing, but my sense tells me it's more angry. I wonder what they may REALLY be doing as they show us just a sheep...

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by BorgeoisBuffoon
. I wonder what they may REALLY be doing as they show us just a sheep...

My favorite contemporary comment on Dolly was by the great political cartoonist Pat Oliphant. He showed one of the scientists (who really is Scottish) in a lab surrounding by sheep. In the doorway, glowering, is another (kilted) scientist: "Mactavish!" he says. "I hope ye have a highly MORAL explanation for what yer doon' with all these SHEEP!"

[I.R Joey]

Think about the clones themselves how would it feel to be created for the sole purpouse of having your organs removed? I mean the clone has no say in the matter.

[Jowy Blight]

Think about the clones themselves how would it feel to be created for the sole purpouse of having your organs removed? I mean the clone has no say in the matter.

I think that right there would give the clone a reason to go insane or something like that. I know that if I were a clone and knew that, I would do anything to keep it from happening.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
Think about the clones themselves how would it feel to be created for the sole purpouse of having your organs removed? I mean the clone has no say in the matter.

Well, this depends upon the legal status accorded to them. If the law says you can make a clone for such purposes, then this would be awful. If the law says that clones have all the same rights and priveleges as non-clones, then this isn't an issue.

More insidious is the idea of making a clone to replace a dead child. Can you imagine being told that you are not an original, but a copy meant to replace someone else who died?

Another creepy thought: Cloning to replace a dead lover. Sci-fi stories about hi-speed regeneration to the contrary, to make a clone is not to make a Xerox of someone at a particular stage in life; take cells from a 20 year old and it will take 20 years for the clone to achieve the same stage (barring accidents). So imagine some rich kid (say, 25 or thereabouts) who loses his/her significant other, and decides to clone the lover. Raises the clone from childhood on with the intention of turning him/her into a new version of the old lover: Years spent shaping, molding and obsessing over the clone, which is young enough to be his/her son or daughter. . . .

There's a theme for your next story, Dr. Belch: "Vertigo" reimagined by Heinlein.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
--it'd be something equally as Frankenstein-esque...like brain transplants. Imagine how complicated that would get...old people cheating death by splicing their brains into young corpses...or criminals changing their identity by assuming not just a new name, but an entirely new body. Would double jeopardy laws apply in court? Could a "transcorpused" person be executed for a crime, if their body is technically innocent? Imagine seeing a deceased loved one on a street corner and having to restrain oneself from running over to greet him/her. Not to mention it would make sex-change operations very interesting..."No, no, the body was always a woman. But my brain used to be in a man." That's sick on a whole new level!

Think what would happen if if someone seriously damaged their body and they would have a clone with no mind and they simply ploped the brain into the clone... now think what would happen if they messed up say put a the brain in the wrong clone by mistake. Think of the confusion.

Doctor:Opps uhhh we accidentally put you in a womans body see there was a ketchup stain next to male on the sheet and I though there was a fe under it, my bad. I can give you a free sex change.

Think what would happen if you got transplanted when you didn't even want it

Doctor:Uhhh see there was a mustered stain next to plant and I thought it was transplant when it was really implant oh and there was a sause stain on the fe part in female so uhhh we accidentally put you in a mans body... my bad.

[Fish]

Has anyone seen the anime about this boy who wants a mechanical body and tries to get on this space-train to another planet where all people have new mechanic bodies.
In danish it's called "Space Express"
Only the rich people can afford the new better bodies and the poor normal people are slaves.
It's badly drawn and poorly translated, but the show is great! I only wish I knew what it's called in japanese and be able to see the JAP version

All this cloning talk reminds me of the series..



<>< F I S H ><>

[JustJack]

y'know, I once wrote a story called "Clone", about a man who is..basically..the clone. The story starts with the first, who is a genetically enhanced human who does the "Dirty work". But when he gets blown up or something, the last thing he "remembered" get loaded into his new clone...a.k.a: The "next hero". And so the story went. He was a good guy, but he mainly chased down renegade clones, evil ones who couldn't stand being the "stand by body".

That's sort of how I feel about cloning. I understand why cloning might be necessary..or at least, why they'de want to do it. But I have studied psychology, and my main problem is that a child born, knowing he's a clone, would probobly have some major attitude problems. A test-tube-baby. Scary thought to think that's all you are. something mixed up in a blender...

I can also understand how this could cause genetic enhancements in people. If we can perfect making a clone of someone, with a genetically enhanced form, then why not just cut out the middle man? Take the DNA straight from the parents, & make yer super-man. This is how all those "apocolypse" movies start. A "New" human race conquoring us.

If any of you watch Power Rangers: Time Force, I'd say that show is a great example. In the future, Babies are simply genetically perfected beings. But something went wrong with one, causing terrible deformalities. This future filled with every living person having perfect DNA, then you throw a mutated man, the world rejects this poor guy, he sets out to go back in time & destroy the world that rejected him, before it ever happens!
And yes, this years Power Rangers series actually IS that complex. I'd highly recomend watching it.

anyway..I don't see the point for cloning people. As for a Post-Apocolyptic future where evil, twisted clones control the world..I'd say...go for it!

[batboy2001]

Like Dr. Belch said (I think) it seems Dolly the sheep is not doing to well, and it also seems that clones get sick a lot more fast than the first one thing that got cloned. While messing with genetics, they could uleash a virus were there would be no cure for.

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
My fears is the military applications of genetics.

This techonology has more applications for evil then good.

There's a point mentioned that I forgot to think about in my post. Matter of fact, I think we already have a taste of how bad the military applications of genetics in that manner can be. Everything Psycho Fox said has been done in METAL GEAR SOLID. That game was a conspiracy inside a conspiracy inside a conspiracy inside 50 plot twists. Nothing good came of that, and that was fiction! This is just a bad idea for this time in our culture's life.

[James]

Simple fact is, it's going to happen and it can't be stopped. Ban it here, then someone will do it over 'there'. If science is at a point where the technology is available for the next leap, then there is nothing we can do to avoid that moment of transition.

Will it destroy us? Will it turn life itself into a rather tedious lecture disguised as a bad scif short story. Probably not. As with all major technological changes, people fear the worst (and more often than not, armageddon) - but normally the fears are unsubstantiated (normally? - tell that to the people of Hiroshima! - Devils Advocate SJJ)

Atrocities in the name of science are as regular as myself drinking warm hot cups of tea. Rather than fearing cloning and looking at ways to stop it progressing to humans, we should all be looking at ways to regulate now, before it all comes a reality. It will - and the time before could be well spent discussing the practical issue rather than the moral one.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by SJJ
Simple fact is, it's going to happen and it can't be stopped. Ban it here, then someone will do it over 'there'. If science is at a point where the technology is available for the next leap, then there is nothing we can do to avoid that moment of transition.Yes you make them want to change their reaserch like subsidize them to work on enviormental studies or something, most will rather go for the quick buck then the long shot or better yet show everyone that wants to do it a flim of when sceince goes wrong.



Will it destroy us? Will it turn life itself into a rather tedious lecture disguised as a bad scif short story. Probably not. As with all major technological changes, people fear the worst (and more often than not, armageddon) - but normally the fears are unsubstantiated (normally? - tell that to the people of Hiroshima! - Devils Advocate SJJ)

Atrocities in the name of science are as regular as myself drinking warm hot cups of tea. Rather than fearing cloning and looking at ways to stop it progressing to humans, we should all be looking at ways to regulate now, before it all comes a reality. It will - and the time before could be well spent discussing the practical issue rather than the moral one. Just becouse we can do it doesn't mean we should.... we could invent new was to cut down trees faster but that would only make problems worse...In the 50s they found out they could use low powered nukes for civil enginering since it had a bigger kick then nitro, The Soviet Union tried the same thing the problem was nitro doesn't contaminate the soil like nukes do and the scientist on both sides were using trail and error something which is not good when your playing with nukes.

[Maxie Zeus]

I haven't thought long and hard about cloning (applied ethics isn't my field), but I have noticed something about the arguments offered here. Most of them presuppose the worth and dignity of the clones themselves, a point which has interesting corollaries.

First, let's leave aside the sci-fi stories about genetically enhanced ultra-fighting clones, or germ warfare (a nasty business that doesn't need cloning technology, only genetics, to be terrifying) or "ultra-growth formulas" or anything else for turning a newly-minted clone into a full mature person, or brain transplants. Also, let's leave aside worries about the immaturity of the science, and postulate that the science is almost entirely successful, and as likely to give birth to a healthy and normal human specimen as is the eons-older technique. Most of the complaints made still apply.

So I worried about attempting to "resurrect" a dead child or lover. IR Joey and Jowy Blight worry about clones as walking, thinking, organ banks (Monty Python: "We've come for your liver. Isn't this an organ donation card? Need we say more?"). JustJack mentions oppression against those who don't measure up to a standard of excellence. But in each case, notice who is being wronged.

It's the clone. He's the one who is being exploited for his body parts, or punished for lacking some quality, or trapped in exploitive and diminishing relationships. Now, these are the sorts of things that can only be wrong if done to something with an inherent dignity (like a normal human being) and so presupposes that the clone is, in these moral respects at least, indistinguishable from anyone else.

There are two directions this thought might lead you. First, the real worry here is not so much about how clones would be treated, but about how the rest of us might be treated. That is, one way to avoid worries about exploiting clones is to pretend that they ARE NOT REALLY PEOPLE, and so cannot be exploited. Presto-chango! Define a clone as a non-person, and there's nothing wrong with treating them like a toy or an organ bank. But since there is nothing that distinguishes a clone from a real person except their provenance (where they came from), the same trick could be pulled on anyone else. Another presto-chango, and suddenly those who are born to poor people, or to Jews, or to some other group no longer have the "right" provenance" and can be declared non-persons as well. If we are to deny the fundamental rights of man to clones, we are well on the road to denying them to many other people as well.

That's the pessimistic vision. The optimist might well reply that the very repugnance we feel for the (potential) exploitation of clones is a good reason for thinking it won't happen. The danger outlined is that clones will be abused by society. But if society recoils from the idea of abusing them, or treating them as anything but fellow humans, then the danger is entirely averted. Anti-clone bias is (on this line) no different that racial bias, and can be ameliorated or extinguished by manipulating societal attitudes. In this optimist's vision, to discover that your friend or lover is a clone is no different than discovering that they are a twin; to discover that they come from a graft is no different than discovering that they came from an orphanage.

I won't pause to ask your views on whether you buy the pessimist's or optimist's views (though I am curious to know them) but press on to another objection to cloning. Basically, I ask, what is the point of it?

If cloning is a technique for generating isolated tissue samples, for use in surgery and the like, rather than the manufacture of complete humans, I suppose I can see the good of it. But why would anyone want to make an actual clone?

Clearly, for purposes of having a child. But there are many other avenues one can pursue to gain a child, from the low-tech art of adoption to the more advanced techniques developed in fertility clinics. So why would someone eschew these possibilities in favor of cloning?

I can only see two possible reasons: (1) Someone wants a clone of himself (or herself) and not just a genetic relation. (2) Someone wants a child with particular qualities, a guarantee that the child will turn out a certain particular way, and tries to do so by reproducing a clone from the cells of some person with those qualities.

The former, it seems to me, is narcissism projected outward. This person wants a little model of himself, to admire, mold and make into an even more perfect replica of himself. Many parents already do this to their children to some extent, and we dislike it when we see it being done; the clone would be an even more vulnerable victim of this kind of insidious exploitation and abuse.

The latter would also be a variation on a drearily familiar parental sin, that of trying to turn the child into the replica of some other person the parent admires. We all know about parents who goad their children into being athletes, or models, or musicians, or actors. Sometimes the child can finally escape with the plea that he or she is just incapable of the great feats the parent wants accomplished, or just doesn't like them. Would that excuse wash when the child is a clone of Pete Sampras, or Itzhak Perlman, or Cameron Diaz? The reply would be crushing: "You're a replica of X, so you should try to be just like X."

Note that this puts the clone right back in the situation of being cruelly treated and exploited, but because it is a parental/familial exploitation, and not a political or societal one, it is much less amenable to political or social solution. The only way I could see to prevent it would be to have a law mandating that any clones made would have to be randomly mixed into a stock of reproductive material (fertilized eggs and the like) including other clones and non-clones, and all distributed randomly so that there would be no way of knowing (until comparatively late in the person's life) that he or she was even a clone, or of whom. Safely tucked away behind a veil of ignorance, the clone would have every chance of a normal and healthy life. But of course, since this would defeat the purpose of making the clone in the first place, were such a law in effect little or no cloning at all would take place. And the fact that a law against their exploitation would almost certainly destroy the market for clones, I take to be proof that clones could only be objects of exploitation, no matter how much we might want to pretend otherwise.

Okay, this will either kill the thread, or (hopefully) spark some interesting replies.

[Failure]

Personally, i'm completely against human cloning. And I'm not even going to get into the ethics or the spiritual issues surrounding it or whether or not the clone would be considered human, etc. All that's a whole subjective thing. It's interesting to talk about, but it's basically futile since you cant really argue that anyone's correct or incorrect about their morals, religion, etc. I just think this is the new atom bomb situation of our generation.

I gotta wonder about the motives of these scientists who'd like to clone humans. Do they really wanna help people or is this just a great way for them to be revered and remembered throughout history?

I'm not sure where I stand on stem-cell research. I dont know all the facts, so I dont want to make an uninformed decision. However, I think I'm leaning towards the against side. We've already got great medical breakthroughs helping us live longer and longer, but at what point do we draw the line? Shouldnt we have to die at some point in our lives? As morbid as this may sound, if you're screwed and you're going to die, and none of our more "traditional" methods are going to help, I think you should just accept your fate. Nothing was meant to be immortal. At the pace we're going, we're prolly going to wind up just uploading our minds into new bodies everytime our old ones waste away. I think our drive to become immortal is going to be our ultimate downfall.

[Jowy Blight]

Hmmm........... This clone stuff reminds me of Final Fantasy VII. You see, during the game Cloud, (The Main Character) 1st Class SOLDIER, tells his friends about when Sephiroth (Main Villian) went crazy, and how he felt watching his town being destroyed by him.

But during the game, Sephiroth replays all the events that happend in his home town, but with somebody else in his (Cloud's) place. Sephiroth then explains how Cloud is nothing more then his clone, a puppet. He tells Cloud that he has no heart, and can't feel any pain he was only made to be just like him. On top of that, that he was an failure clone, not even given a number. At first, Cloud doesn't belive him beacuse he remember's almost everything that happend to him. But then he realized that he couldn't remember when he joined SOLDIER and got to 1st class. Then Sephiroth shows Cloud the picture they took before they went to the mountains, but in Cloud's place is somebody else. So then he starts to think that he is nothing more then a clone, and that he isn't a real nomal person. So he takes a orb called the Black Materia to Sephiroth, so he could do what he thinks he was created to do. So Sephiroth summon's a Meteor and Cloud is taken by the lifestream and lose's his mind.

But the point is, what would happen to someone who finds out they're nothing but a clone. Would they lose it and do something bad? I don't think our world is ready for clones yet.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

-and I would hate to imagine what a clone might do...
...especially if he learns could be nothing more than a guinie pig for testing new drugs, for example. Just to make sure that drug would not kill others, despite the fact he himself could be killed by it, even though...
....he's technically human as well. Clone yes, but still technically human, as others have said. I think most people who are not clones, if cloning becomes commonplace, would forget that. I once read a short story of how one clone pretended to be the real deal because clones were treated like scum in the world...being forced not only to bear insults and the like, but also having to mimic thier original's every move (when possible), despite the fact they were seperate people as well...who could become disinterested in what the original was doing...yet could do nothing about it; clones in that world had no rights.
....the only clones should be natural born twins, in my opinion.

[James]

Jowy Blight:
Hmmm........... This clone stuff reminds me of Final Fantasy VII. You see, during the game Cloud, (The Main Character) 1st Class SOLDIER, tells his friends about when Sephiroth (Main Villian) went crazy, and how he felt watching his town being destroyed by him.

Good comparison - I'd forgot about the cloning in FF7 (although a spoiler warning wouldn't have gone amiss - you gave away so massive plot twists there!!)


Maxie Zeus:
Note that this puts the clone right back in the situation of being cruelly treated and exploited, but because it is a parental/familial exploitation, and not a political or societal one, it is much less amenable to political or social solution. The only way I could see to prevent it would be to have a law mandating that any clones made would have to be randomly mixed into a stock of reproductive material (fertilized eggs and the like) including other clones and non-clones, and all distributed randomly so that there would be no way of knowing (until comparatively late in the person's life) that he or she was even a clone, or of whom. Safely tucked away behind a veil of ignorance, the clone would have every chance of a normal and healthy life. But of course, since this would defeat the purpose of making the clone in the first place, were such a law in effect little or no cloning at all would take place. And the fact that a law against their exploitation would almost certainly destroy the market for clones, I take to be proof that clones could only be objects of exploitation, no matter how much we might want to pretend otherwise.

More interesting musing. Is there any avenue where cloning would not be exploitation? Personally, I can't see any and the furture on this subject is clouded at best. Not knowing the details of the technology required, we are at a loss to predict the cost of cloning. What price would cloning cost? How easy would it be do create mass clones? How could the process be adapted to change life cycles/brain capacity/maturity? I think these practical problems will affect the furture of cloning than the moral issue.
Indeed it is likely that cloning on humans will have an immediate ban in the western world (public support alone would make this politically imperative - but what it less... democratic countries? This is where the cost and effectiveness of the technology will determine what the actual moral argument is that we face. Cloning has such widespread possibilities it's hard to define the specifics when trying to predict how this new technology will effect our future.

[Jowy Blight]

Good comparison - I'd forgot about the cloning in FF7 (although a spoiler warning wouldn't have gone amiss - you gave away so massive plot twists there!!)

Oh yeah!! Sorry, but at least I didn't give away how that ended.

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

SSJ, good point. What WOULD third world countries do with cloning? They could, perhaps, use clones as cheap(er) workers in factories, private, government, and the like. What about dictators who have clones of soldiers for armies?

Also for mass cloning-overpopulation! These guys need food and water too, you know....and Earth already has trouble supporting NON-cloned humanity already.

[James]

BorgeoisBuffoon:
What WOULD third world countries do with cloning? They could, perhaps, use clones as cheap(er) workers in factories, private, government, and the like. What about dictators who have clones of soldiers for armies?

I'd say the occurance is unlikely. Why spend vasts amount of cloning an army when you can conscript a nation in the first place? Goverenment with such a disregard for clones would probably have the same disregard for civillians...

Life is cheap - in comparison cloning is just too darn expensive.....

[Jowy Blight]

Also for mass cloning-overpopulation! These guys need food and water too, you know....and Earth already has trouble supporting NON-cloned humanity already.

Good point, I really don't think we will have that many resource's left in 100 years. If we make clones it might go even faster.

[happyheathen]

But -

this is real, live, grown-up stuff - NOT an idiot game.

Notes:

1. I can't think of a single technology that was developed, but not used. Do you think genetic engineering techniques will be different?

2. The Nazis actually created a human 'breeding program' to produce a 'super race' - the thinking is not new.

3. Get used to it

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by happyheathen
this is real, live, grown-up stuff - NOT an idiot game.

Yes, this is important stuff, but "idiot" games should not be ruled out for that reason. The games described work against a sci-fi background, which is precisely the kind of genre that allows us to think thru the possibilities and consider how to react to them. Even if some of the possibilities considered are outlandish (I for one don't see how "cloned armies" would ever be possible, let alone cost-effective) the exercise is still useful and even necessary.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen
But -

this is real, live, grown-up stuff - NOT an idiot game.

Notes:

1. I can't think of a single technology that was developed, but not used. Do you think genetic engineering techniques will be different?

2. The Nazis actually created a human 'breeding program' to produce a 'super race' - the thinking is not new.

3. Get used to it Yes I can... in Japan many years before the Russia/Japan war the gun came but the kings of the time thought it to be unhonourable thus anyone becoming a gunmaker their family would be tortured and killed it worked Japan didn't not have any gunmakers till they were invaded by the Europeans.

Now this is a bit harsh and I don't think it would be right to tourcher and kill the scientist that works on genetic engineering but you could probably do something maybe arrest them and put them behind bars.

[Jowy Blight]

this is real, live, grown-up stuff - NOT an idiot game.

Nobody ever said it was, I know this is a real issue. I was just making a point on how a clone could act if they found out they were a clone, and gave an example from a game I knew of. It's very possible a clone could go crazy if they were to find out that they were a clone. So like I said, the world isn't ready.

[happyheathen]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Yes I can... in Japan many years before the Russia/Japan war the gun came but the kings of the time thought it to be unhonourable thus anyone becoming a gunmaker their family would be tortured and killed it worked Japan didn't not have any gunmakers till they were invaded by the Europeans.


Actually:

1. the firearm was invented by the same people who invented gunpowder: the Chinese

2. Firearms did get used, didn't they? (there is a story I heard years ago: Louis 13 or 14 of France was presented with a working flame-thrower, and put the inventor on pension-for-life on the condition that he destroy the device and all papers concerning it, and never mention it to anyone again (Louis XVI probably wished he had a couple a bit later...))
(flame-throwers also got used)

3. If you need to play a video game to be able to imagine and think -
PLEASE DO NOT VOTE!!!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by happyheathen


Actually:

1. the firearm was invented by the same people who invented gunpowder: the Chinese

2. Firearms did get used, didn't they? (there is a story I heard years ago: Louis 13 or 14 of France was presented with a working flame-thrower, and put the inventor on pension-for-life on the condition that he destroy the device and all papers concerning it, and never mention it to anyone again (Louis XVI probably wished he had a couple a bit later...))
(flame-throwers also got used)

I ment in JAPAN for a period of time there was no guns

[Jowy Blight]

3. If you need to play a video game to be able to imagine and think - Do NOT Vote!!

I can't vote, I'm only 15. As for the video game thing, Were you listening? I said EXAMPLE, you don't need a game to think about this. The game just had something that showed what could happen to someone who found out he/she was a clone. That they might go mad, and do something that could hurt someone.

[Blast Hornet]

I would love to have my own Clone, I mean just a guy to act as a house for all the parts incase I need them, He could walk behind me and if I loose limbs i can take his you know like some weird lab assistant just dragging his toeless foot behind him while I walk around like I'm perfect , Hey I'm not Morbid He's me techincally ( i'm joking)

[BourgeoisBuffoon]

Geez, I hope you are joking....happyheathen would have a field day in telling us how this is not for stuff like that....but a clone still has feelings too, you know-what if he acted like YOU were the clone? Where would you be...since you may end up giving a body part?