Fresh Question #74: Chararcter Development Award

[Nightwing]

Hope the Summer's treating you all well, folks. If not, don't worry, we got some news for ya. It's Fresh Question time!

As we all know, Terry was given the short ear of the cowl when it came to the development of his show and himself. What character would you say has gotten the exact opposite?

Which character got the most/best development??

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Nightwing

Which character got the most/best development??

The one person that was probably most developed would be Bruce, because we saw why he hung up the suit, as well as what happened in his "final" encounter with Joker. Both of those moments added much, IMO, to how we view Bruce. Also the implication that Bruce was involved with Barbara, and the revelation of just how deeply he might have felt about Talia give us a much better view of him as well. All those details make Bruce much more defined, much more alive.
I'd actually say Terry was second, given what we saw in ROTJ. I know that was only one movie, but it did a heck of a lot in showing us what Batman means to Terry and just how capable he is of carrying the mantle.

[Maxie Zeus]

Every Inque episode added to her character, so that there was quite a bit there after only 3 episodes. Same thing, collectively, for the Royal Flush Gang. They were so dysfunctional by the end it made me really curious to see some more of their past, to see how long they had been that bad off with each other.

[optimal321]

Shriek. He had the best ep in the whole series, BABEL. It just showed how crazy he is. Duh:)

And i'd also say ROTJ gave us great development in the 3 main characters. Terry, Bruce, and the Joker.

[Maxie Zeus]

I have to plug Old Maid's most recent Pro-Con piece (http://www.toonzone.net/worldsfinest/bbeyond/procon7a.html) on the main WF site. It's a staggering blend of insight, imagination and empathy which shows the supporting characters of Max, Dana and Mary and Matt McGinnis to be both richer and poorer in ways that (I at least) never imagined.

[Failure]

I'd agree and go with the Royal Flush Gang. It was interesting to watch the downfall of that family piece by piece. I can see them starring in a VH1 'Behind the Music' type spoof.

[Blade]

This post is in regard to Old Maid's Pro-Con column.

First of all, I'm not a Batman guru. I was a big fan og the 1960's live action series. I have seen a few episodes of BTAS. At the time, I was maybe 6 or 7 and more concerned with Barbie, not Batman. I never watched the Batman and Superman or Batman and Robin series. I have seen the 1960's live action Batman movie and Batman Forever. (which was awful!)

With that said, everything I say is from my general knowledge of Batman and specifically Batman Beyond.

First, I will focus on Old Maid's analysis of Dana.
There is a common misconception about the length of Dana and Terry's relationship. A lot of people believe that they had been together long before Terry became Batman. Ther are a couple of things that disprove that. 1)On Rebirth part 1, Dana calls Terry on the day of his father's funeral. Mary McGinnis tells Terry that his FRIEND called ans she LEFT her number. If Terry and Dana had been together for awhile, I think Terry would know her number. 2) On the episode Golem, Terry and Dana went to a dance on the pier. Terry leand in to kiss Dana, but she turns away because she see Willie. Terry then apologizes for trying to kiss her. Now if Terry and Dana had been together for awhile, kissing would be a mere formality and would require an apology.

Moving along, Dana is a nice, sweet, beautiful girl. However, she hangs around girls who are the opposite of herself. Chelsea and Blade have to be the shallowest girls in Hamilton High. (TFDAR) Why would good old Dana hang out with those mindless teenagers? Maybe she wants to keep a certain social (and maybe economic) reputation.

I believe Dana is slowly becoming a I-need-a-man-to-survive chic. Not downing our hero, but Dana could do better. Old Maid correctly pointed out that her choices are slim. However, those are her known choices. How about the guys we see walking down the halls of school that never speak? (in other word, the writers haven't given them a name or personality) So, yes, it is possible for Dana to leave Terry and maybe find better. Plus, if Terry truly cared for Dana as a friend and person, he would let her go. It is not right for him to string her along. Terry has chosen his path, one that does not allow many outside distractions. I also doubt if Terry cares for Dana as much as people think. This is evident in Dead Man's Hand , Once Burned, and Untouchable. 1) DMH- If Terry really cared about their raltionship, he wuldn't have been so quick to jump to Mellanie. 2) Pnce Burned- Terry lied to Dana and had old girl up in his room up in his room on his bed. Heat of the moment? I think not. Heat of the moment is one kiss and then the realization of the wrong. I didn't see Terry even attempt to stop Melanie. 3)Untouchable- Terry talks to Dana about another girl he is somewhat interested in. How stupid is that? Terry says. "For pete's sake she lives in a bubble" not "Baby, you know all i want is you." That's basically like, "If she wasn't in the bubble then..." Dana could assume anything.

This is not to say that Dana and Terry have not known each other for awhile. Recall the episode Big Time, the scene in the diner. Terry says "you remember Charlie?" Dana is like "but do you" Terry says that like Dana has seen Charlie before. This is enough to conclude that Terry and Dana knew of each other when the were 14. So how does Terry know Charlie with such a large age gap? Gotham is a very big city. Some big cities have waht is called a superschool. I have heard of really big school that have a 7th and 8th grade combined with high school. They may not be in the same building, but on the same campus.

I will give my take on the rest of Old maid's analysis in a later post.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Blade
This post is in regard to Old Maid's Pro-Con column.

Some nice points, well made.

If you're interested, you can work up this and the next post you're working on into an essay of your own and post it in the same Pro-Con section as a reply to Old Maid. You might want to be quick about it, though, since DG is thinking about putting WF into stasis mode.

BTW, welcome to the boards, Blade.

[optimal321]

You made some nice points Blade. I agree w/ a lot of what you said, but i just have some other explanations for the following:


Originally posted by Blade
1)On Rebirth part 1, Dana calls Terry on the day of his father's funeral. Mary McGinnis tells Terry that his FRIEND called ans she LEFT her number. If Terry and Dana had been together for awhile, I think Terry would know her number.

Well, also keep in mind that Terry didn't live w/ his mom. She probably wouldn't have known if he had her number. Also, Dana probably wouldn't have said anything about their relationship on the phone. Even if they had been together for a while, i doubt that she would have told his mom something like "I just love Terry and need to make my little pumpkin feel better." Not that she would say something exactly like that, but you know what i mean.


2) On the episode Golem, Terry and Dana went to a dance on the pier. Terry leand in to kiss Dana, but she turns away because she see Willie. Terry then apologizes for trying to kiss her. Now if Terry and Dana had been together for awhile, kissing would be a mere formality and would require an apology.

Well, think of how often we've seen Terry and Dana kiss throughout the series. Sure they do sometimes, but we've seen that they are a bit more conservative about showing their affection. Also take into consideration, that this was a slow dance and a bit more romantic than just making out somewhere.

But hey, i'm just giving possible alternatives for these.

[Blade]

Well, in response to your alternative explanation, I always saw it like this:

Dana: Hello, is Terry in?

Mary: I'm sorry he's not.

Dana: Well, could you tell him Dana called and my number is 555-5555.

Mary: I sure will.

Now, I'm debating Old Maid's points. Old Maid believes Terry and Dana have been together since they were 14. If that were true, it is very likely that Terry would have her home phone, cellphone, pager, two way, email, fax and what ever else there is to communicate. However, I agree with you on the point that Mary may not have known about Dana. But that has nothing to do with Dana leaving her number. Matt or the answering machine could have picked up and she probably would have said the same thing.

[Bird Boy]

I loved ROTJ. It had so much character building, it was crazy. If you can count him, I'd say Robin had the most..you learned so much in ROTJ..it was great.

-BB

[Shriek]

I belive Ten/Melanie totally was developed. She totally turned her life around. She even got her brother to stop being a bad guy.


Don't hit me though guys, But I grew into loving Max.

[mxyzptlk]

bruce

[The Old Maid]

To me it seemed the phone issue wasn't a problem. There's no evidence Terry owned a personal phone before Wayne gave him one, just as he didn't have his own transportation before Wayne gave him a cycle. I think the phone conversation would go more like this : "I'm sorry, he's not in. Let me take your number and I'll tell him you called." A responsible parent would have wanted the number so SHE could reach Terry next time he went to see her. Mary turned out not to be a clued-in parent, but Dana and the audience didn't know that at the time.

I think Dana was written to hang out with the fellow rich kids because if she didn't, Terry wouldn't meet them either. And in the teen-angst episodes, that meant no episode. I'd happily eliminate both the princesses and their weak stories.

The kiss in "Golem" seemed to me that Dana was distracted and didn't want the side of her head kissed when a human tragedy was unfolding elsewhere. But the Melanie relationship, oh yes, that was sleazy. The opportunity for a passionate affair with someone you'll never see again...better men than Terry have yielded to that temptation.

How Terry knew Charlie ... I've seen streets with all the schools clustered together. But I doubt they met at school. To do that these bad boys would have to GO to school, and it's doubtful that Charlie would. I always thought Terry met Charlie in some hangout where bad kids usually go. But if they met during school hours, it still probably wasn't in school. Terry may have skipped class or been suspended for fighting. Charlie almost certainly spent a lot of days on the streets. All he had to do was figure out which kids had a good reason for being out of school (e.g. dental appt.) or a bad one. Then he picked one that suited him. Also, Terry's nickname suggests Bigelow recruited him. "Tiny Terry" isn't a name to be proud of. But the boss names his guys. In fact most serious crooks (e.g. drug dealers) choose preteens or early teens to be their lookouts or runners. They're no threat to the boss ; won't start having ideas of their own. Old enough to be useful and young enough to have hero worship. Terry fits that description.

They're good questions, though. But Blade, you've got a great eye for detail and you really flesh things out. If you have time and/or interest I'd love to see a Pro vs. Con Editorial about the Sixties series. I don't think people understand what the show did for Batman. It really saved his neck. I think Dick Grayson is still taking submissions through the end of the month.

Anyhow, going back to topic...


Originally posted by Nightwing
As we all know, Terry was given the short ear of the cowl when it came to the development of his show and himself. What character would you say has gotten the exact opposite?

Which character got the most/best development??

I'd go with Shriek and the RFG. Bruce has gotten some, not enough for my taste. At least he resisted the teen-angst episodes, which meant they didn't destabilize his character. Big Time too, although I didn't care much for him and found his monster makeover too goofy. Even the other villains didn't take him seriously. It did make people underestimate him, though.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say Irene from "Untouchable" was well-developed. Yes, Terry found the absolute worst thing to say in the Dana scene. I'd say, though, he likes Irene because she's so much like Dana. (Or at least what Dana used to be before they pureed her character.)

Irene : chooses the activity (day at the beach, rollercoaster)
Dana : chooses the activity (dancing, dinner and a movie)

Irene : a little brave (wants to see what's going on) but not brave enough to face Repeller
Dana : a little brave (turns back to see what's going on) but not brave enough to get close to Earth Mover's mud monsters

Irene : must get past control-freak doctor who hates Terry
Dana : must get past large, angry father who hates Terry

Irene : Terry describes her as wise beyond her years because of her suffering, but in some ways she's naive like a little girl
Dana : series alternates between showing her as understanding beyond her years, a bringer of suffering, and clingy and gullible like a little girl.

So I vote for Irene as a developed character, even though we'll never see her again.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
Mary turned out not to be a clued-in parent, but Dana and the audience didn't know that at the time.


This led me to have a sudden thought. Mind you, I'm not endorsing it, just advancing it.

Teri Garr voiced Mary McGinnis. Granted, voice acting is probably the one acting forum that really allows for off-casting, even without altering your voice, but I find it interesting that they cast someone who is so well-known for her clueless ditzes as Terry's mother. Would you be willing to take this as evidence that the producers always intended Mary to be slightly out of it, rather than as something that just developed because the show couldn't find a use for her?

[Shriek]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


This led me to have a sudden thought. Mind you, I'm not endorsing it, just advancing it.

Teri Garr voiced Mary McGinnis. Granted, voice acting is probably the one acting forum that really allows for off-casting, even without altering your voice, but I find it interesting that they cast someone who is so well-known for her clueless ditzes as Terry's mother. Would you be willing to take this as evidence that the producers always intended Mary to be slightly out of it, rather than as something that just developed because the show couldn't find a use for her?

Now that you mention it... You could be right.

[Blade]

Hey OM:
Sorry it took me so long to reply. If I could remeber all the episodes of the 1960's Batman I would love to write a pro-con about it. However, I have not seen that show in a long and I mean long time. But it was my favorite show as a kid, and I would love to somehow see it again.

And Maxie Zues:

I would love to write a piece for the pro con column! It will take me awhile because school started today and my teachers already loaded me down with homework. I tried to work on it this last past weekend but my internet service went whack and I couldn't sign on for days.

But I'll work on it and see what i can come up with!

[Jowy Blight]

ROTJ had a bunch of development for everybody. But I would say Tim Drake, Bruce, and Joker had the most I've seen in a while.

[I.R Joey]

I'd have to say that Max really came into her own as the series progressed. I mean she started off as someone who just hung around Dana and Terry, then really changed into a contributing part of Terry's Bat-life. There where a few instances where I thought Terry was going to dump Dana and get with Max.

[batE]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
I'd have to say that Max really came into her own as the series progressed. I mean she started off as someone who just hung around Dana and Terry, then really changed into a contributing part of Terry's Bat-life. There where a few instances where I thought Terry was going to dump Dana and get with Max.

Though I'll agree that Max had lots of character development throughout the show, she wouldn't be my pick for most developed. For my money, that'd be Derek Powers/Blight. We saw him transform from a smooth, though corrupt and dangerous businessman to a radioactive psychopath. And in every ep he was in, we saw his veneer crack a little more and a little more.


batE

[Maxie Zeus]

Most of the discussion about supporting characters (here and in related threads) has looked at Max and Dana. But Old Maid also has observations about Mary McGinnis and Matt. To her, and to others interested in those characters, I cannot recommend highly enough PD Storrie's Royal Flush Gang story in last month's Batman Beyond comic. It takes Terry's family seriously, but does so with a very light hand. Marvelously, PDS uses an RFG story to make backhanded points about Terry and his family, instead of the other way around.

Do your best to find it!