The Difference between Cartoons and Anime

[Xevo]

I just realized this today, and I think it makes the point for the need of an anime board better than anything else.

A lot of people see anime, and wonder how the quality can be so good. And then they wonder why we animeniacs are upset when people refer to anime as "cartoons".

The big difference is cartoons, and American creaton, are created nowadays with the intention of them being shown 5-6 times per week. As a result, individual episodes are often rushed and there is very little in the way of a continuing storyline to tie episodes together, as it's too easy to miss an important episode.

Anime, on the other hand, is by and large is created to be shown once a week, and so the creators get ample time to make the quality of each episode really stand out. Also, most showns don't run more than 26 episodes, even the VERY BEST (see Cowboy Bebop), but if they get a new series, it's an OVA (Original Video Animation) like the way Gundam Wing was wrapped up with the Endless Waltz OVAs. In that case, the quality is EVEN BETTER. Further, the storylines, as the shows have a limited run and are shown once weekly, often mature as the show goes along, with events happening in chronological order, instead of completely randomly (as many cartoons feel).

In the end, I think I've made my case for the difference between the two. Discuss.

[Christopher N. Denner]

Anime is a cartoon.

'Cartoon' does not mean American Animation. In fact, Cartoon doesn't even mean Animation at many times. The quality of a series doesn't have anything to do with how many times something airs, it has to do with how many poeple are working on it and how much effort they put in. When there are more episodes, studios simply hire more people. 200 people working on 20 episodes are going to do better than 12 people working on 5 episodes.

Besides... most of the Daily shows I've seen recently, are dubbed Anime. :p

[metaphysician]

Technically, the two terms are more or less identical.

However, "cartoon" has picked up too many negative connotations to be used as such, in particular, the idea that cartoon = kiddie stuff.

[William C. Maune]

[indent]Actually the majority of American cartoons have been created with the intention of being shown once a week also. These shows don't go daily until they have been run in this format for a few years and thus have built up their episode count. Even the series that did debut with week day runs have been of high quality though such as Animaniacs, Batman, etc.

[Cyporiean]

Originally posted by AFXanatos
_Even the series that did debut with week day runs have been of high quality though such as ... Batman ...

Which had alot of the Animation done by Sunrise, The studio behind Cowboy Bebop, Mobile Suit Gundam, Outlaw Star, Inu Yusha, Big-O...

[William C. Maune]

[indent]It wasn't just the animation that made Batman great though, it was also the writing, story, character development, etc. All of that was done in America. Plus, by far the majority of American cartoons have, and have been for many years, animated overseas.

[Jeff Harris]

Originally posted by Galvatron


Which had alot of the Animation done by Sunrise, The studio behind Cowboy Bebop, Mobile Suit Gundam, Outlaw Star, Inu Yusha, Big-O...
Well, Toei, the producers of a lot of anime, including Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z, did a lot of animation for Muppet Babies among others, and TMS Animation did work for Batman, Wuzzles, Gummi Bears, Winnie The Pooh, Spider-Man, Galaxy High, Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain and others.

Get off your high horse just admit that anime is a "cartoon." :p

[JetMaster5]

anime- a japanese word for "cartoon"

Since "anime" is a direct English translatin of "cartoon", then i don't see how these two words could be so different. In other words, how could "anime" represent Japanese cartoons, whereas "cartoon" represent American cartoons?

[RogueMartian]

People are really obsessed with this "anime is a cartoon" thing. I personally disagree. I think that it is important that we differentiate between Anime and Cartoons. Yes, I can hear the replies now "but anime is animation, cartoon is animation, they are the same thing" but all of us anime conoisseurs know that's not true. So for the purpose of differentiating between the two, I see no reason why we don't call american animation "cartoons" and Japanese Animation "anime".

So here is how I define it:

Anime is Japanese animation, and is created for many reasons. It can be for adults, children, or both. The character designs, plots, and backgrounds are usually far more complex than they are in cartoons.

Cartoons are American animations. They are usually designed for either children or adults. Almost never both. Few children will be able to understand the humor and complexities of The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, King of the Hill, Daria, Clerks, etc. And Most adults(including myself a lot of the time) have a hard time appreciating Spongebob Squarepants, Ed, Edd, and Eddy, or even Batman and Gargoyles.

Now to the point of the thread, I don't think we really need another message board just for anime. I think its good to keep animation as a whole together, despite the major differences between anime and cartoons. Here there are people who prefer cartoons, people who prefer anime, and people who like both, its good to see everyone's different perspective together. That's what I think anyway.

[J.C.]

Originally posted by RogueMartian
Cartoons are American animations. They are usually designed for either children or adults. Almost never both. Few children will be able to understand the humor and complexities of The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, King of the Hill, Daria, Clerks, etc. And Most adults(including myself a lot of the time) have a hard time appreciating Spongebob Squarepants, Ed, Edd, and Eddy, or even Batman and Gargoyles.

Don't think I can agree with that. There are many kids out there who I've seen enjoy Simpsons, Family Guy, and Futurama. And, although I can't think of anyone offline that likes Ed, Edd, and Eddy, there are a lot of adults around where I live who are big fans of Spongebob Squarepants. I'm not saying that there aren't shows which children or adults wouldn't be able to appreciate (I'm sure most kids don't understand the humor of Home Movies), but to say that american cartoons are almost never designed for both children and adults doesn't sound right.

And I also don't think there's a need for an Anime only forum on the board. There are more then enough Anime themed message boards on the net as it is. What I like about this board is that we can talk in one thread about the comedy of Animaniacs and then talk in another about the message behind Evangelion.

[Mr. Obsession]

Originally posted by Xevo
The big difference is cartoons, and American creaton, are created nowadays with the intention of them being shown 5-6 times per week. As a result, individual episodes are often rushed and there is very little in the way of a continuing storyline to tie episodes together, as it's too easy to miss an important episode

Anime, on the other hand, is by and large is created to be shown once a week, and so the creators get ample time to make the quality of each episode really stand out. Also, most showns don't run more than 26 episodes, even the VERY BEST (see Cowboy Bebop), but if they get a new series, it's an OVA (Original Video Animation) like the way Gundam Wing was wrapped up with the Endless Waltz OVAs. In that case, the quality is EVEN BETTER. Further, the storylines, as the shows have a limited run and are shown once weekly, often mature as the show goes along, with events happening in chronological order, instead of completely randomly (as many cartoons feel).

In the end, I think I've made my case for the difference between the two. Discuss. Not exactly true. Most US 'toons start out with an initial order of 13 episodes. It helps minimize the risk of financial loss. If the show does well than the second season will probably get more episodes ordered (to the point were it can eventually be shown daily). The Japanese are doing the same thing. A story might be planned for 26 episodes but if the initial 13 don't pull in the ratings, sorry.

"Rushed" is a matter of opinion.

As for "story directly continues from one episode to the next" vs. "story is told through a series of shorter stories". Personally I think this has to do with the evolution of film back in the serial days and the nature of comics back in the golden and silver ages. And I probably would have killed myself if I had to watch the "five minute" fight between Goku and Freeza at a pace of one episode per week. :p

Sadly OVA's are going out of style in Japan. Too much risk, not enough profit. Unless of course it's a guaranteed money maker like Gundam or Tenchi. But OVA's based on origional ideas/show concepts are becoming few and far between. Again Business is business. And of course OVA's look better than their TV counterparts, if you through enough money at something the quality is going to go up.


Originally posted by Galvatron
Which had alot of the Animation done by Sunrise, The studio behind Cowboy Bebop, Mobile Suit Gundam, Outlaw Star, Inu Yusha, Big-O... If about 9 episodes out of 109 are a lot then, yes, Sunrise did animated a lot of Batman:TAS. :p


Originally posted by RogueMartian
People are really obsessed with this "anime is a cartoon" thing. I personally disagree. I think that it is important that we differentiate between Anime and Cartoons. Yes, I can hear the replies now "but anime is animation, cartoon is animation, they are the same thing" but all of us anime conoisseurs know that's not true. So for the purpose of differentiating between the two, I see no reason why we don't call american animation "cartoons" and Japanese Animation "anime".

So here is how I define it:

Anime is Japanese animation, and is created for many reasons. It can be for adults, children, or both. The character designs, plots, and backgrounds are usually far more complex than they are in cartoons.

Cartoons are American animations. They are usually designed for either children or adults. Almost never both. Few children will be able to understand the humor and complexities of The Simpsons, Futurama, Family Guy, King of the Hill, Daria, Clerks, etc. And Most adults(including myself a lot of the time) have a hard time appreciating Spongebob Squarepants, Ed, Edd, and Eddy, or even Batman and Gargoyles.I hate to say it, but in some circles "connoisseur" is just another word for snob. I'm not trying to single you out here RougeMartian, I'm just trying to make a point. If you want to get really technical a cartoon is a drawing. Be it something you find by an editorial your local newspaper that's satirizing an political decision, those funny little strips usually located in the sports pages, or a poster of Uncle Sam for the army.

Animation is technically a drawing that's been put to motion.

What we've been doing is taking two words, removing them from their context, and using them to segregate animation based on the geographic location of it's conception.

If we take a step back you'll find we're arguing over pictures put to motion and meant to entertain. Kind of silly, no?

But really, why do we have to segregate animation? Why do we have to take a Japanese word, remove it from it's origional context, and use it to describe animation that we've decided to set on some holy pedestal simply because it was created in a different geographic region?

If you go to the Average Joe in Japan you're going to find that to him or her anything that's animated is anime, be it Cowboy Bebop or Batman or Fruits Basket or Power Puff Girls or Tenchi or Loony Toons or Macross or Care Bears or Chicken Run or Hikaro no Go or The Tick or Speed Racer or Lady Death or Trigun or... well the list goes on. And if you go up to Joe Six-pack and substitute the work anime for cartoon the answer is going to be the same.

Maybe, just maybe the Japanese and Joe Six-pack have the right idea.

Besides, with the growing number of co-collaborations this point is going to become moot sooner or later. *shrug*


Now to the point of the thread, I don't think we really need another message board just for anime. I think its good to keep animation as a whole together, despite the major differences between anime and cartoons. Here there are people who prefer cartoons, people who prefer anime, and people who like both, its good to see everyone's different perspective together. That's what I think anyway. Actually I couldn't agree with you more on that.

[I.R Joey]

I personally like the comradery of it allm having a general animation board, where we can talk about Jappanesse, and American, and heck even European stuff.

As for the anime=cartoon thing, I'd have to say yes (though my freinds may disagree.) Some of them claim that a show can only be an anime if it's aimed at an older audience thus making something like Pokemon not anime (Figure that.) Another said that he wouldn't consider his anime to be cartoons (he reserves that for stuff like Donald Duck or Goofy) he said that's why he wouldn't call Beauty and the Beast a cartoon, that would be an animated feature (right he is to a point.) But I'm curious to see what he'd call Astro Boy or Hamtaro, if they ain't cartoons what are they?

I disagree very much personally with the fact that some cartoons can't be for adults. It has been done in America with varying degrees of success. Of coarse, I don't know if I can truely blame the writers and artists of many American animated shows that try to play it safe and not be to risky. Look at Return of The Joker, or Gargoyles (that lethal force ep) or some of the others, look how they where treated.

[I.R Joey]

Oh and BTW Good points all Mr Obsession.

To tell you the truth I to am also guilty of using anime to describe specifically Japanesse animation, I know it's kind of werd cuz anime=animation to me. Maybe the proper term Jappanesse animation would be better when reffering to that style, but that's to long, and I've always abhored the term Japanimation (seems kind of like I'm talking down to it's fans and creators.) So I'll just stick with anime for convinience sake (just like I use Dinosaur even though I hold to the warm blooded theory.)

[Blue Priestess]

Originally posted by nemalki
Get off your high horse just admit that anime is a "cartoon." :p

Despite the fact that many REPUTABLE anime info sites have made it clear that "anime" is simply a Japanese term for a cartoon, this will never happen. Why? 1--Like someone else said, the word "cartoon" has a negative connotation. 2--A lot of snobby otaku want to like they've found the Holy Grail of animation because they watch anime & don't wanna admit it's in the same field as, say, Muppet Babies. (Dang it, Jeff, thanks to you, it was the only example I could think of!) It's the same thing as with idiots who proudly declare "I don't have a PC, I have an iMac." They're the same darn thing, just different sources.

Mela (Mac hater, thanks to those ads)

[creeper]

one difference is that anime's actually end. Cartoons just stop showing new episodes. Speaking of that does that annoy anyone but me? If a show is not gonna show any more new eps. Can't they just stop showing it and show a different cartoon. Or maybe tell us there not gonna show any more new eps so i don't waste my time watching. I'm sorry for the bitterness, but the networks really don't care if a show is doing well or not. They buy enough eps to go into syndication and they stop. At least the people that do Japanese animation give us closure. I'm kinda tired of big networks just buying a certain number and leave the fans hanging.

yeah anime is cartoons but nowadays i wouldn't even put anything american in the same class as japanese anime. We just make up cartoons now to sell a product. There's usually no real story, or by the time they get to a certain ep they forget why they started in the first place. Plus there are always eps they decided not to air which makes the cartoon not make sense. Look at street sharks for instance. They were looking for their dad. More than halfway through they don't even talk about their dad or any missing characters. I coul dhave sworn i didn't miss a single episode.

Over here we've lost our respect for any kind of animation. Remember back when every channel competed on saturdays? Remember when they all actually cared about story a little bit? You know why they stopped? Because they weren't doing as good as the best channel or the channel that shows the best cartoons. They don't do that for regular series. They just grin and bear it. We all know must see tv is gonna win. But they continue to show the crappy shows cause that's all they have. Why don't they show cartoons the same way. Because cartoons are for kids. What do we know(i'm 22) ?


You can tell in japanese animation that they still respect the story. Their not just trying to sell a product. So until ALL american cartoons are on par w/ japanese animation, it's not worthy of being called anime

[Zechs]

They are both animated but anime tende to have more storyline and is geared toward a larger aduince not just kids as most of the aniamtion is here. I like anime becaus it tells a good sotry most American cartoons fail to do even out live actions show are falling to the wayside for cash if can't bring in the cash it must be trash. Dosen't matter if the story's good they take it off or re-run it if they have enough ep's. Yes America has some good Animation ( I'm quite sure you know the ones I'm talikng about) but other than that the rest is just kids stuff. Once it losses its power to make money it's gone this is also true for live action T.V shows. I get sick of watching shows only to have them taken off and relpaced by yet another crap fest. I think both have their good poinds its just that due to the way and reason anime was done it seems better and sometimes is. Anime is a cartoon but on a higher level than most of it's American counterparts.

[Christopher N. Denner]

Originally posted by RogueMartian
People are really obsessed with this "anime is a cartoon" thing. But it's even funnier when they are obsessed that it's not. ;)

I do wonder though... if Anime and Cartoons truely are different, and Anime is from Japan and Cartoons are American... what do people call theirs in the other 99.2% of the world?

:rolleyes:

[Cyporiean]

Originally posted by Christopher N. Denner
But it's even funnier when they are obsessed that it's not. ;)

I do wonder though... if Anime and Cartoons truely are different, and Anime is from Japan and Cartoons are American... what do people call theirs in the other 99.2% of the world?

:rolleyes:

Animation ^_^

[RogueMartian]

I do wonder though... if Anime and Cartoons truely are different, and Anime is from Japan and Cartoons are American... what do people call theirs in the other 99.2% of the world? Good question. I was wondering what the German, Russian, etc. word for animation is.
one difference is that anime's actually end. Cartoons just stop showing new episodes. Speaking of that does that annoy anyone but me? If a show is not gonna show any more new eps. That also annoys me. I think cartoon francaises would last longer than only a couple of years in this country if they told a story rather than just repeated segments of some characters life. Who here would like it better if batman had a story rather than simply throwing the villain for the day into Arkham for the 5 millionth time?
I hate to say it, but in some circles "connoisseur" is just another word for snob. I'm not trying to single you out here RougeMartian, I'm just trying to make a point. If you want to get really technical a cartoon is a drawing. Be it something you find by an editorial your local newspaper that's satirizing an political decision, those funny little strips usually located in the sports pages, or a poster of Uncle Sam for the army. Hehe. I meant the word Coinoisseur very tongue in cheek, sorry if I came off snobbish. I know that technically cartoons can be one picture, or an animation. My point was that for simplicity's sake, it was good just to call american animation cartoons because american animation takes too long to type. ;)

[William C. Maune]

[indent]Something else to keep in mind in comparing the qualityof Japanese animation and American animation is what we actually see. In America we see all American an animation from the great to the good, bad, and ugly. From series that have been on forever like The Simpsons to shows so bad they disappear rather quickly. Here in America though we only see the better half of Japanese animation. There is no reason for them to export stuff to us that has already failed over there. Plus, nobody is going to bother to fansub stuff, or at least it will never catch on and spread around, that isn't good from Japan either. This must be kept in mind otherwise people are basically comparing the best of Japan's animation to all of America's animation.

Also, as for other countries, the French word for animation is "anime" with an accent mark over the "e".

[JohnCrichton]

Why is the term "anime" so hard to grasp?

It's cartoons made in Japan for Japan.

Not stuff animated there for American distribution, not CGI, not Canadian, not any cartoon with action.... it's plain and simple, anime is made in Japan, by Japan, for Japan.

[J.C.]

Originally posted by AFXanatos
_____Something else to keep in mind in comparing the qualityof Japanese animation and American animation is what we actually see. In America we see all American an animation from the great to the good, bad, and ugly. From series that have been on forever like The Simpsons to shows so bad they disappear rather quickly. Here in America though we only see the better half of Japanese animation. There is no reason for them to export stuff to us that has already failed over there. Plus, nobody is going to bother to fansub stuff, or at least it will never catch on and spread around, that isn't good from Japan either. This must be kept in mind otherwise people are basically comparing the best of Japan's animation to all of America's animation.

Thank you! Although I've yet to bring that up myself on this particular message board, it's a point that I've been trying to make at many Anime boards for years when the occasional "American cartoons suck" thread comes along (not to be confused with this thread, which I know wasn't made with the intent of bad mouthing american animation).

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by AFXanatos
_____Something else to keep in mind in comparing the qualityof Japanese animation and American animation is what we actually see. In America we see all American an animation from the great to the good, bad, and ugly. From series that have been on forever like The Simpsons to shows so bad they disappear rather quickly. Here in America though we only see the better half of Japanese animation.

Yes, like Pokemon, Hamtaro and Zoids, right? (And no, they are not really quality shows even if you have them as your guilty pleasures).

I've yet to see the vast quantity of was-popular-in-Japan-but-unmarketable-over-here World Masterpiece Theatre batch of anime shows hit the U.S. I've been waiting for just one of them to hit U.S. shores UNCUT for years, and lest one thinks they are "historical educational crap," I counter that by arguing that a few of the shows are some of the edgiest and emotionally wrenching anime out there.

And no, I don't consider Cowboy Bebop the "best anime ever" or even in the top 9 best anime ever. I'm being totally serious.

[William C. Maune]

"Yes, like Pokemon, Hamtaro and Zoids, right? (And no, they are not really quality shows even if you have them as your guilty pleasures).

I've yet to see the vast quantity of was-popular-in-Japan-but-unmarketable-over-here World Masterpiece Theatre batch of anime shows hit the U.S. I've been waiting for just one of them to hit U.S. shores UNCUT for years, and lest one thinks they are "historical educational crap," I counter that by arguing that a few of the shows are some of the edgiest and emotionally wrenching anime out there.

And no, I don't consider Cowboy Bebop the "best anime ever" or even in the top 9 best anime ever. I'm being totally serious"

[indent]There are many many people who think Zoids is great, I don't think I have seen anyone who doesn't think Hamtaro is a quality show for it's target age group, and there must have been at least something good about pokemon for it to become as popular as it did. The reason why people haven't seen an unmarketable show over here is because they are, unmarketable.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AFXanatos
The reason why people haven't seen an unmarketable show over >here is because they are, unmarketable.


Meaning they don't sell toys. Name me ONE anime on TV not on adult swim that isn't specifically designed to sell toys.

[I.R Joey]

Easy Jojo.

Ruroni Kenshin.

Lots of stuff made by Gainax Like Otaku no video, and Eva (still need to see Gunbuster darn it.)

Akira.

I'm sure others can chime in.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
Easy Jojo.

Ruroni Kenshin.

Lots of stuff made by Gainax Like Otaku no video, and Eva (still need to see Gunbuster darn it.)

Akira.

I'm sure others can chime in.

We are talking about television. There are plenty of anime on DVD that is good, though I would argue that many people and companies seem to think there wasn't any anime before 1992. How many old anime are there on DVD? Two? Three? Oh yeah, I forgot, all old anime is supposed to be UNMARKETABLE and SUCKY!

[I.R Joey]

Well I totally disagree with that kind of assesment, from what I've seen there is alot of good anime that's somewhat dated (I missed out on Galaxy express when the rest of my freinds where watching it, English Final) and I need to see Astro Boy (or Tesuro Atom or whatever it's original name was) for the sake of historical context. I also really want to see the original Bubblegum Crisis OVA eventually.

Anyway I really want to see more Tezuka stuff.


More to the point I think there may be a market (all be it a small one) for older anime in the same way that their is a market for older Warner and MGM animated stuff. It's just that T.V networks don't think that people will watch and right they may be to a point (remember Mobile suit Gundams being plucked last year?) I don't personally understand it, how someone can reject the rich tapestry of historical wealth that can be extracted from such works simply because of it's age, but heck people do.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Sarcasm, Joey, sarcasm. You should be used to my style of writing now. ;)

My point is, there isn't a large enough market out there for older anime because not enough companies believe it is marketable and in most cases, they are right! And what I was saying was that there ARE a lot of really good shows made before 1992 (there was anime before 1992? Not according to many fans, apparently), but AXanatos seems to think that if it isn't in America already, it probably wasn't good. And here I disagree vehemently. True, there are a lot of crappy shows we will never see (thank god), but there are also a lot of older shows we will never see because they are either too old or too "unmarketable." There still isn't enough non-action anime shows released on DVD.

Recently ADV released Princess Nine, an anime about baseball. And fans in some areas applauded them for releasing a sports anime, something that we rarely see over here. HELLO! Considering the fact that there are HUNDREDS of sports anime (and some are REALLY GOOD!) in Japan never before seen in America, you can see how behind we really are in variety. But as long as people continue to be satisfied with JUST mecha and magical girls and swordfights and pocket monsters, we probably won't get much of these anyway.

And one thing that urks me is when classic shows (i.e. old and unmarketable) like Space Captain Harlock, Princess Knight (the FIRST shoujo ever), Rose of Versailles (classic shoujo) and Future Boy Conan (Miyazaki's first true directorial effort) languish in U.S. obscurity while the "newest" and "hottest" shows in Japan get licensed. It's ridiculous. I'd rather get my hands on some of these classics before whatever anime is currently airing in Japan, but it ain't gonna happen because not enough people here care about anime before 1992. But going by AFxanatos' words, these must be crap, that's why we don't see them. Maybe the reason we don't see them is that too many people have this kind of attitude.

Just take a look at the "favourite anime" thread on this board. Other than MSG, are there any anime picks on that thread older 1991? It's all 90s and newer stuff, which confirms to me that older anime is hard to access in America, and/or people simply prefer newer anime. Maybe it's both. Whatever it is, there's a big hole in the pre-90s period, and that's a shame, since the anime industry REALLY took off in the 80s, at least from both a creative and quantitative standpoint, IMO.

[Tommy Lawson]

Originally posted by Leaping Larry Jojo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AFXanatos
The reason why people haven't seen an unmarketable show over >here is because they are, unmarketable.


Meaning they don't sell toys. Name me ONE anime on TV not on adult swim that isn't specifically designed to sell toys.

There's only one other possible reason I can think of right now as to why an anime without merchandising potential would even be on the air here, outside of CN's Adult Swim block. It would be to fulfill the FCC's Educational and Informational (E/I) 3 hour requirement on the broadcast networks, and most of that is better done here in the U.S. IMO since the companies that produce them know what the FCC is looking for.

Of course Saturday morning anime shows are designed to sell toys. Those anime shows are on in the U.S., first of all, to boost ratings for the network it's on. It's almost a prerequisite that they must have done well in the ratings in Japan. If they were a flop in Japan, then why would any network invest a lot of money and resources just to air it here?

Merchandising is a multi-billion dollar industry in the U.S., and IIRC, the U.S. is the one of the largest toy markets, if not the largest, in the entire world. Don't you think some anime companies want a slice of that market with their shows? Even if an anime show aired here didn't start off with a merchandising line, if successful, it's very likely that it will eventually have one. And merchandising also helps a network by having kids, or whatever the target audience is, associate that show's products with their network, which in their eyes, will get them to check out other shows on the network as well.

The ratings and merchandising factors determine a lot here- which shows get on the air, which get cancelled, which properties get the most emphasis from a network, etc, regardless of the quality of the show. Say what you want about Hamtaro, Pokemon, and Zoids, but as long as they continue to bring in ratings for the network, and have successful merchandising lines, those shows will continue to be on the air here.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Batman192



The ratings and merchandising factors determine a lot here- which shows get on the air, which get cancelled, which properties get the most emphasis from a network, etc, regardless of the quality of the show. Say what you want about Hamtaro, Pokemon, and Zoids, but as long as they continue to bring in ratings for the network, and have successful merchandising lines, those shows will continue to be on the air here.

Naturally, I understand how sponsors work. Nobody's willing to take a risk at least as far as money is concerned. That is understandable, but not necessarily a GOOD thing for me as a viewer.

At any rate, my original point was an IS the fact that these aren't necessarily GOOD shows or the BEST shows. They are SUCCESSFUL shows. I believe I still stand by this point.


(I am not a Pokemon basher, by the way. I have extolled its quirky virtues in the past, even though I realize that IT is mainly a marketing machine)

[Zechs]

I agree with AFX. We don't see the crappy animes that fail over in japan. Why? because thay won't make money. If it doesn't make wads of cash it's not worth the compines because it would mean they loose money. Just like I'm quite sure they don't export all the crappy shows we have here. One must rember that everything has it's good and bad points. Anime is no excption.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Ugh, I can't tell you how disgusted I am, really. :p Just like that, sight unseen, anime that doesn't make it over here must therefore suck. I'm getting too old for this. ;)

EDIT: Smilies can can help clarify a tone. :)

[I.R Joey]

Well sometimes we get the exception for example I don't think Big O or Vision of Escaflowne did that good in Japan, and both have very devote followings in the U.S (Heck there was enough interest here to get it a second season.)

Yes Jojo, that was sarcasm my bad. :p

And it also has to do with the fact that the distributors know what will sell, seriosuly having lots of fan service will get "those" kind of people to buy your show. ADV latched on to that along time ago IE Plastic Dolls, and the "Jiggle" counter thing.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Well, I have no problem with fan service or mecha or magical girls. I just wish there was a bigger audience for the other varieties, like sports anime, or historical drama.

I mean, the World Masterpiece Theatre anime were some of the highest rated programs in Japan during the 80s. But we haven't got even one of those shows licensed in the U.S. Does that mean they suck? No, of course not. So why aren't they here? Well, lessee...they don't have mecha...they don't have magic...they don't have swordfights...HELLO UNMARKETABLE anime!

And it doesn't matter if I list all these legendary super-historical anime shows, those GROUNDBREAKING anime shows in the 70s and early 80s, because to many fans they fall on deaf ears. I guess the only good anime is anime made after 1991, with the exception, of course, of Mobile Suit Gundam, which was like the best ANIME before 1991, right? Rose of Versailles? Who cares. Space Pirate Captain Harlock? Who cares. Heidi? Who cares. Future Boy Conan (come on, this is Miyazaki, for crying out loud!)? Who cares.

See, while maybe a few people care, too many anime fans are perfectly happy to blissfully collect their Fushigi Yugis and Tenchis without even being curious as to what shows helped paved the way for the shows they are currently watching. I mean, where would a movie like Minority Report be without Alfred Hitchcock??

The fact of the matter is that generally:

New shows sell.
Mecha sells.
Action sells.
Magical girls sell.
Hentai sells.
Fan service sells.

Romance doesn't sell (just look at Maison Ikkoku sputtering along...it may never be finished at this rate)
Sports anime doesn't sell as well.
Non-toy children's shows don't sell, no matter how emotionally satisfying or edgy or bleak they may turn out. If it doesn't have flashing lights, it must not be very profitable, and therefore must suck, according to most fans.

And last, but not least...OLD ANIME DOESN'T SELL, AND THEREFORE MUST SUCK! Because if they DID sell *sarcasm* then they would be worth mentioning. But they're not, so that's why we don't see enough of them released in the U.S.

[Zero Angel]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
Well sometimes we get the exception for example I don't think Big O or Vision of Escaflowne did that good in Japan, and both have very devote followings in the U.S

i first would just like to jump off the boat here by saying that Escaflowne, while not having the initial success it should have gotten in japan, did eventually become one of the most acclaimed series over there. it estentially took the place of Eva as the best of the new once Eva had finished.

ok, what to add to a topic that has already had a lot of things said in it...well i just want to add my 2 cents on the need for an anime board here. i can understand the commentary on the want to keep a Genral Animation board even though i am a devoted anime fan. if we were to make an anime board then we would also need a European Board and anime would probably fit into a category of Asian Animation. i dont think that this is going to happen...its just me.

further...the idea of anime being simply a cartoon is not something i take to kindly to. i think that anime is animation. hell it means animation. i dont think that all anime is above being called cartoon...it does have its shares of things comparible to Muppet Babies and the Smurfs...have you ever seen an episode of Doreamon? pretty simple stuff...even things like My Pet Neighbor Tororo is something along the lines of Disneys animated features. so do i think there is a difference, yes...do i think that there are no cartoons in anime...no.

what else has been brought up i feel the need to jump into? oh yeah...the concept of story vs flashy. look at the series Vandread. very uncomprehensive series with some cookie cutter characters in a situation not so original. very pretty though. lots of eye candy and fan service to get a following, then ya hit the audience with the story, hence Second Stage. most times often then not a series in japan is made with 13 preliminary episodes in mind and then if it is a success and the creators wish to continue they do so. over here in america it has to be marketable right off the bat, if it isnt, it better be made as such as quickly as possible, hence the amalgamation of all the power rangerish shows put into one long continueing series known as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

i cant think of to much else to add...except for this. for as much animation that is released over here, yes most of it that is widely advertised are sure to be hits. of coarse there is the fair share of bad stuff released over here but even so with the marketing and the whole industry of anime becoming tough business in japan, most times often then not the bad stuff doesnt survive the market over there...so all the stuff that is finished product is all the material that there is.

[Lachesis]

Err, just some general comments.

Oh, and Larry, please ignore my comments on the other thread as I hadn't seen this one yet.

Let me just bring up the current state of American animation. Almost everything produced these days is either an action show of some sort or, on the other extreme, one of those innocuous PBS or Nicktoons that can easily be pigeonholed as educational. The problem with anime is that it seems almost universally associated with the former. I think Hamtaro and Tama-chan are the first two I've seen that would actually fit pretty well with the latter.

I've caught a few glimpses of that really ugly-looking "Anne of Green Gables" cartoon they're airing on PBS these day, and I couldn't help wondering if somebody might have paid for a decent dub of the old WCT version that Miyazaki, Takahashi, and Kondo worked on, if only they'd known about it. Then again, from what little I've seen of the WCT programs, they seem to be too dark for the preschool crowd that comprise the main audience for educational shows.

And, I'm sorry to say it, but the animation styles for many of these shows just haven't held up very well. I took one look at Mobile Suit Gundam and started having flashbacks to He-man.

[BlueAngelGal]

Cartoons = Works of animation. End of story there.

Anime = Japanese animation, done in a distinctive style that looks very, very different from Western animation.

[Xevo]

Well, I have a lot I would comment on, but I'm just overwhelmed.

Lots of good points made, however!

I do want to make a case for Escaflowne -- it failed when it started largely because Eva was reaching its climax and the first 6 or so episodes are not all that great for Escaflowne. By the middle of its run, however, Eva had wrapped up and the show was getting good, and in fact Escaflowne was very popular when it ended.

Ok that's it for now, more to come later, perhaps =)

[Blue Priestess]

I must say, listening to the sheer volume of whining and defensive posing and snobbiness on this thread, not only am I convinced giving up anime was the right thing, I'm going to get rid of all the stuff I got when I was into the crap. I don't wanna be associated with a haughty subculture like this I've seen here.

Mela

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Lachesis
Err, just some general comments.

Oh, and Larry, please ignore my comments on the other thread as I hadn't seen this one yet.



And, I'm sorry to say it, but the animation styles for many of these shows just haven't held up very well. I took one look at Mobile Suit Gundam and started having flashbacks to He-man.

Oh, for sure...I understand that older shows aren't as aesthetically appealing...some are just downright ugly in a few cases. But the point I was trying to make to AFX was that just because for some reason nobody's brought some of the more "different" shows over here or some of the older ones, doesn't mean it was because they simply sucked.

It's true that many fans judge anime on aesthetics...some would SAY that they don't, but it's human nature--they do. Looks DO matter, no matter how many people say it doesn't. It took me a long time before I could appreciate some of the 60s toons...though since there was a variety of cartoons airing when I was a child (they often had 60s, 70s and 80s cartoons airing all on the same non-cable network way back), I was probably more accepting of crappily animated toons. So my standards for visuals is much, much, lower than many others'.

That doesn't mean, of course, that the stories or plots were worse.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by MTDiva
I must say, listening to the sheer volume of whining and defensive posing and snobbiness on this thread, not only am I convinced giving up anime was the right thing, I'm going to get rid of all the stuff I got when I was into the crap. I don't wanna be associated with a haughty subculture like this I've seen here.

Mela

Whining about whining is the same thing. ;)

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. The thread isn't even talking about "anime" superiority anymore (of which I have reservations about) we're talking about marketing, culture, tastes, human nature...sure, sometimes it gets pretentious, but SO what? We're not necessarily insulting anyone we're simply arguing our stance. Do not mistake fanboy passion for whining.

You COULD argue that this thread has become so very geeky in nature (courtesy of me and a few others), but then, talking about cartoons in detail tends to betray a geek nature as well, and that's pretty much what this board is about.

One COULD argue that we should have better things to do than to argue about entertainment, like do something good for the world or something, but then, why are we here on this board in the first place? To indulge in geek conversation and talk about our hobbies. Nothing wrong with that.

[Zechs]

Originally posted by MTDiva
I must say, listening to the sheer volume of whining and defensive posing and snobbiness on this thread, not only am I convinced giving up anime was the right thing, I'm going to get rid of all the stuff I got when I was into the crap. I don't wanna be associated with a haughty subculture like this I've seen here.

Mela
That's why you gave up anime. GET REAL this is the way we feel and there are some Americn animation fans that feel the same way too better give that up as well. Now moving on this whole thing winds down to how much money one can make. In America T.V is not much of an art form any more just something to bring in more cash and I hate that. Good shows get taken off because they don't make enought cash . When the majorty of viwers are too closeminded and braindwashed into thinking this is all there is and don't explore what happens you get the samething over and over again. Pretty soon you get bored with it and like a dog beging for a treat you wait for the T.V industry to give you more crap instead of looking for yourself.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Okay, okay, let's not get out of hand here. I do feel sort of responsible getting this ball rolling into semi-passionate territory, but as I said in a previous thread, "anime" vs "Western animation" will battle on forever until both parties are just sick of talking each other (which is why I don't like getting into cultural battles in the first place).

[Blue Priestess]

Originally posted by Zechs

That's why you gave up anime. GET REAL this is the way we feel and there are some Americn animation fans that feel the same way too better give that up as well. Now moving on this whole thing winds down to how much money one can make. In America T.V is not much of an art form any more just something to bring in more cash and I hate that. Good shows get taken off because they don't make enought cash . When the majorty of viwers are too closeminded and braindwashed into thinking this is all there is and don't explore what happens you get the samething over and over again. Pretty soon you get bored with it and like a dog beging for a treat you wait for the T.V industry to give you more crap instead of looking for yourself.

Ladies & gentlemen, THIS is why I gave up anime and will not sell but DESTROY all of the anime-related stuff I have. IT'S A SMEGGING CARTOON!!! GET OVER YOUR ARROGANT SELF!!

Mods, can you PLEASE give these idiots their own board so we don't have to put up with their holier-than-thou crap anymore?!

Mela

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Geezes, chill out, dude. You come in here, say you can't stand us arrogant whelps, even when we never ONCE attacked you personally. If you don't like this thread, that's fine. But no need to crap all over us. The hatred that you're spewing forth is most disturbing.


I agree we may need a real anime board created, though. Whenever you put anime fans along with regular animation fans, you always get a blowup.

[Blue Priestess]

Originally posted by Leaping Larry Jojo
Geezes, chill out, dude. You come in here, say you can't stand us arrogant whelps, even when we never ONCE attacked you personally. If you don't like this thread, that's fine. But no need to crap all over us. The hatred that you're spewing forth is most disturbing.

Did you even READ that incoherent mess of an insulting post I was responding to, or are you giving them the benefit of the doubt 'cuz you agree with that rambling, nasty idiot? Frankly, anime snots deserve every bit of insulting treatment they can get, so the rest of us who !gasp! like stateside animation can let 'em know how they've treated us for so many years.


I agree we may need a real anime board created, though. Whenever you put anime fans along with regular animation fans, you always get a blowup.

And then you'll whine about it. Why? 'Cuz people aren't watching the RIGHT kinds of anime. I just want an anime board so that we can have a discussion about action cartoons or Toonami without some assinine otaku making the rest of us miserable by patting themselves on the back for liking CARTOONS WITH A DIFFERENT NAME BECAUSE OF A DIFFERENT NATION OF ORIGIN.

God, I swear, give 'em their own damn board already. It'll make discussions around here that much more interesting & readable.

Mela

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

"Idiot," huh? Nice.

See ya later alligator.

[William C. Maune]

"Oh, for sure...I understand that older shows aren't as aesthetically appealing...some are just downright ugly in a few cases. But the point I was trying to make to AFX was that just because for some reason nobody's brought some of the more "different" shows over here or some of the older ones, doesn't mean it was because they simply sucked."

[indent]Ah, ok. I was confused by what you were trying to say before, but now that I know I think you missed my initial point. I wasn't trying to say shows that don't get brought over are not any good. Instead I was saying that shows that are not any good generally do not get brought over. Sure, other stuff may not make it over here also, but specifically they generally are not going to export the bad shows no matter how the same/different they are and no matter what genre they are from.

[randomguy]

Crimany, MTDiva, calm down. With all due respect, if anybody's snotty and toting a holier-than-thou, attitude, it's you. Believe it or not, I think there's plenty of people out there (and on these forums) that are "general" animation fans, who enjoy any animation as long as it's good- that means both foreign and domestic stuff. I'm one of those. I'm sure plenty of others are. No need to get all haughty.

[I.R Joey]

You know what's really interestign is how many Anime fans absoulutely refuse to acknowledge the influences of western animation in the earlier, and even some of the latter works of anime. Tezuka is the most notorious as far as this goes, and that's good, he isn't to caught up in the "Disney sucks" ideas that permeate many other "Otaku's."

My personal opinion is that alot of shows stateside, are begining to look more and more "Anime like," on occasion I've critisized this sayingthat anime/manga style has become to "trendy" and "hip." You know with the still movement, and the lack of true animation (which can look good if used correctly.) However, I also think back to the time of the earlier anime and how those people allowed themselves to be influenced by Warners and Disney, if those people hadn't have allowed themselves to be influenced where would the anime style that we like so much be now? Just a thought.

And not all anime fans are arrogant and condescending you see, I'm the kind of person who likes most things animated, regardless of region. I also think that some of the other people on this board have shown the same kind of humility. The Golden Rule please MTDiva.

[Roman Legion]

Eeeeyeah, I think I'll just go ahead and close this thread before the situation here gets any worse. =x

Romey
--Thread Closed