Could animated dramas ever be taken seriously in the west?

[I.R Joey]

Behold I decree by the mighty cosmic monkey, that we shalth engage in a topic and discussion that has been beaten to death on this forum, so be it!!!!



I've been considering this for a long time now. Contemplating where the Japaneese went right, I'm thinking that Gundam back in 1979 might have served as a cadalist for much of the stuff they get overthere. I mean this had a very profound impact on the way cartoons where viewed over there, it has become like Star Trek, spawning endless amounts of sequals, movies and even alternate Universes. (22 years and counting) Of coarse when one considers Gundam, one must consider the toy line right, I mean without it the series may well have fallen by the wayside, despite the incredble stories it has told.

I look at these 2 movies.

Titan A.E: IMO a pretty good Sci-Fi flick, had good visuals, and the story managed to hold me. However, I found 2 major plot holes in it, oh well. To tell you the truth it was still one of the better movies I saw in 2000.

The Road to El Dorado: This movie had actual cursing in it. Kinda funny because this little kid behind me spoke and said.
"Mommy that man used the H-Word" I was shocked but then I chuckled as a bunch of parents gasped, in no way do I condone excessive cussing or hanky panky on screen (this movie had both, with the whole "lucky god" thing with the very scantly clad female lead grapiling with one of the male leads if you know what I mean.)

You see both of these didn't do to hot at the Box office.

I know many of us (as Otakus, or Henti fans : or whatever) understand that animation is a medium, not a demographic. I'm sure that if a movie was rated PG and was not animated less people wouldn't have taken their kids, but people kind of have this "animation is for kids" thing going on, and that sets them up to often times be shocked. It seems that people will not allow themselves to get out of this mindframe. It is a shame as well, I mean who here can honestly say that Batman: Mask of the Phantasm did not beat the pants off of their live action counterparts (Yes I saw Batman and Robin.) Yet, if the two where coming out the same weekend, more adults would go and see Batman and Robin assuming that it would be better, I'm sure of it.


So anyway that's my rant, to add fire to it. What must be done before people will realize the tremendous potential of the medium in qustion?

[Psycho Fox]

I agree. I think there should be free trade amoung the animation studios around the world thus a show from Japan or Europe has the same chance of getting on the air as a domestic one. I think once you start flooding US audence with these foreign animated shows the mindset will quickly fade out

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Actually, the original 1979 Gundam was cancelled in its first run in Japan due to poor ratings. The writers still were allowed to make a few more episodes to end the series, but it was intended to go a bit longer than 43 episodes. It only got popular through reruns and syndication, much like the original Star Trek did.

[I.R Joey]

Exactly like Star Trek, except Gundam was also aided by its stellar model kit line as well as syndication.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Yeah, the toy line came after the Gundam boom. So, it WAS the story that *started* the Gundam boom--at the time the show was released, very few merchandise was out for it.

Good thing, too. The toy line helps pay for the subsequent sequels, as noted by you. Without the toy line, no Zeta Gundam would have been made. Gawd, what a bizarre and bleak ending that show had...

Looking at the old 1979 show again (I rewatched half the show two days ago), I can see where it was groundbreaking, but I also see the flaws from the 70s as well. The "corny robot" trend was still kicking in 1979, and while Gundam was infinitely more serious than most, it still had some leftovers from the super-robot era. Also, there are moments where the show seemed repetitive. I still conclude, however, that the last half of the show holds up quite well even when compared to today's stories. The first half, airing now, is kinda clunky in its exposition, so it takes a while for the show to get rolling. It still has good moments, though, like Garma Zabi and his girlfriend from the Earth Federation...

[Calhoun07]

I think animation would only be taken more seriously if a couple things happened, and one of them is if somebody could develop a prime time animated drama that was successful as the Simpsons. I would take Simpsons style numbers for the television studio to take notice. Anything less, and they would call it a failure and axe it for the next "reality" TV show.

Another thing that I think should happen, but probalby won't, is we need to have OTHER countries import their serious animated features into America as well. I want to see animation from France, Russia, European nations, Australia, what have you. For every person who is willing to give a movie like Princess Mononoke a chance, and thus break their preconceptions about Japanese animation, there will always be a majority that won't embrace the fine movies Japan has to offer, because they have stereotyped them into a certain group. But if we could get more movies and animated TV shows from other countries, people could see that serious animation does have a place in the world as a viable entertainment choice, and it might break some stereotypes.

Another thing I think would have to take place is that there needs to be an animation channel that has programming for older audiences, and adults. And by adult I don't mean porn cartoons, but cartoons that deal with more mature matters, and can feature more than WB allows, for instance. And I will keep saying that MTV could be the one to start that network, if they only wanted to do it.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by calhoun07
I think animation would only be taken more seriously if a couple things happened, and one of them is if somebody could develop a prime time animated drama that was successful as the Simpsons. I would take Simpsons style numbers for the television studio to take notice. Anything less, and they would call it a failure and axe it for the next "reality" TV show.They probably have to team up. Odds are one studio can't do it but it two or three got together they just might pull it off


Another thing that I think should happen, but probalby won't, is we need to have OTHER countries import their serious animated features into America as well. I want to see animation from France, Russia, European nations, Australia, what have you. For every person who is willing to give a movie like Princess Mononoke a chance, and thus break their preconceptions about Japanese animation, there will always be a majority that won't embrace the fine movies Japan has to offer, because they have stereotyped them into a certain group. But if we could get more movies and animated TV shows from other countries, people could see that serious animation does have a place in the world as a viable entertainment choice, and it might break some stereotypes. Yhea that is what I was getting at we need to expose US audiences to more mature animation but we also need to expose US Networks and Studio execs to this and make it a real threat to US Studios


Another thing I think would have to take place is that there needs to be an animation channel that has programming for older audiences, and adults. And by adult I don't mean porn cartoons, but cartoons that deal with more mature matters, and can feature more than WB allows, for instance. And I will keep saying that MTV could be the one to start that network, if they only wanted to do it. yup that would be cool

[Failure]

I dunno, I think it'd be very difficult to change peoples' mindsets. The biggest thing leading to people perceiving cartoons as kiddie fair is Disney and the "Saturday morning cartoon" ideal. I think with those two factors remaining strong, even if we did bombard people with more mature cartoons, people still wouldn't change their minds.

A lot of my friends watch the Simpsons, Family Guy, have watched BSTAS in the past, etc, and still consider cartoons as a kiddie thing. We could bombard people with foreign animation that's mature and a mature animation channel, but I think it'll always remain a niche thing. People are so stubborn. I think cartoons as a kid thing is an idea that's too deeply embed in people's head to change widespreadly. Every non-kiddie cartoon they see, they'll just assume is an exception.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Failure
I dunno, I think it'd be very difficult to change peoples' mindsets. The biggest thing leading to people perceiving cartoons as kiddie fair is Disney and the "Saturday morning cartoon" ideal. I think with those two factors remaining strong, even if we did bombard people with more mature cartoons, people still wouldn't change their minds.

A lot of my friends watch the Simpsons, Family Guy, have watched BSTAS in the past, etc, and still consider cartoons as a kiddie thing. We could bombard people with foreign animation that's mature and a mature animation channel, but I think it'll always remain a niche thing. People are so stubborn. I think cartoons as a kid thing is an idea that's too deeply embed in people's head to change widespreadly. Every non-kiddie cartoon they see, they'll just assume is an exception. Well you could flood the airwarves with mature animation thus the Saturday morning becomes the exception. One Summer they should just air nothing but animation that will kill the myth that animation is just for kids

[Failure]

Well you could flood the airwarves with mature animation thus the Saturday morning becomes the exception. One Summer they should just air nothing but animation that will kill the myth that animation is just for kids

I think it'd have to last longer than a summer. It'd take years maybe even decades. Otherwise, people will just pass it off as a fad.

With all the weird cable channels that exist, I'm surprised there's no mature animation channel already.

[Lachesis]

I don't think it's ever going to happen. Even if mature animation does gain a major foothold here it'll still be niche thing like Failure-man says, sort of a "Star Trek" thing even in the long run. Cartoons are like comic books. Part of their intrinsic definition in some people's minds is that they're meant for the under-twelve set.

Also, there's no way a major network would try airing these types of programs without knowing there was a steady audience for them. Anyone remember "Invasion: America"? It was a dramatic animated sci-fi series that the WB ran in prime time over the summer a few years ago that got iffy ratings, got chopped up for a single run on Sat AM that wasn't even finished, and was never heard from again. I thought it was a pretty rotten show myself, but it was the most successful recent attempt. Cable does a little better, but not by much.

By the by, does anyone know if and when HBO will be airing the "Alexander" series? I've been waiting for this thing forever. . .

[DR. BELCH]

HBO has done some very nice takes on Shakespeare's Othello and on Beowulf in their infrequent Animated Classics series...but I'd like to see longer and faithful takes on classics from Dante, Shakespeare, Ibsen, and Marlowe, as well as original productions. Maybe even an animated version of a Stephen King novel, for those who enjoy more contemporary material...and for the late-night audiences, a hentai series.

[Psycho Fox]

Well how about a hyped animated drama with a huge marketting campain?

[bushnader666]

Originally posted by Failure


I think it'd have to last longer than a summer. It'd take years maybe even decades. Otherwise, people will just pass it off as a fad.

Back in the olden days of classic animation in the 30's and 40's, animation were shown with movies that adults watched. Cartoons were supposed to be funny, but there was some seriousness. Example: "Peace on Earth" (MGM), a 1939 cartoon, was strongly anti-war and was released on the eve of WWII.

There were many war-related cartoons as well. At the end of many of these cartoons were messages urging viewers to buy War Bonds for national defense.

Oother examples: "Red Hot Riding Hood" and "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs." Aimed for kiddies? I don't think so. And so it took years to "kiddie-fy" animation. Hanna/Barbera pioneered this after MGM closed shop around 1957. And it may take the same thing to come back full circle.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Lachesis


Also, there's no way a major network would try airing these types of programs without knowing there was a steady audience for them. Anyone remember "Invasion: America"? It was a dramatic animated sci-fi series that the WB ran in prime time over the summer a few years ago that got iffy ratings, got chopped up for a single run on Sat AM that wasn't even finished, and was never heard from again. I thought it was a pretty rotten show myself, but it was the most successful recent attempt. Cable does a little better, but not by much.


Yes, Invasion America is a bad example because it wasn't even good. If a better show got more exposure and it still bricked, then we have an example.

Plus, you have to figure in that the WB typically got lower ratings than most networks because it WAS still relatively new, and not all markets carried it.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
HBO has done some very nice takes on Shakespeare's Othello and on Beowulf in their infrequent Animated Classics series...but I'd like to see longer and faithful takes on classics from Dante, Shakespeare, Ibsen, and Marlowe, as well as original productions. Maybe even an animated version of a Stephen King novel, for those who enjoy more contemporary material...and for the late-night audiences, a hentai series.

The way HBO has been releasing DVDs lately, I would pay decent money to see them put those animated shows out on the true format. I think that would be a great step forward in getting animation taken more seriously

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by I.R Joey
Behold I decree by the mighty cosmic monkey, that we shalth engage in a topic and discussion that has been beaten to death on this forum, so be it!!!!



I've been considering this for a long time now. Contemplating where the Japaneese went right, I'm thinking that Gundam back in 1979 might have served as a cadalist for much of the stuff they get overthere. I mean this had a very profound impact on the way cartoons where viewed over there, it has become like Star Trek, spawning endless amounts of sequals, movies and even alternate Universes. (22 years and counting) Of coarse when one considers Gundam, one must consider the toy line right, I mean without it the series may well have fallen by the wayside, despite the incredble stories it has told.



Actually, I've been boning up on old anime, and while Gundam was a revolutionary show for mecha shows, I wouldn't say that it was THE cartoon that made people view animation differently there. In the same year, 1979, there was a show called "Rose of Versailles," a girl's (shoujo) historical fiction drama about the French Revolution. Kylewayne could tell you more--it's known as "Lady Oscar" in the french dubs. And yes, this show was VERY popular. Girls came to school talking about "Rose of Versailles," and several plays were made of it, all spurred on by the popularity of the melodrama. Girls also seemed to contribute to the popularity of Mobile Suit Gundam--I believe the complex relationships had girls engaged, and Tomino once said that he never intended the show to grab so many female viewers, and was surprised.

And we cannot discount some of the 60s-70s Masterpiece Theatre anime shows, which adapted pieces of children's literature. Dog of Flanders traumatized many kids because of its bleak ending where both the boy and his dog died in a cold winter day in a church. Heh. :D

Also, there were the Matsumoto shows, like Space Pirate Harlock, and Galaxy Express 999, which were right up there with Gundam in melodrama (though Gundam had a more realistic science fiction take on space).