Am I missing something re: Max?

[batE]

OK, I've read a lot of threads, and I'm getting the impression that this crowd does not like Max. What I can't figure out is why. I don't remember much of "Where's Terry," but I do remember that Max kept the T's from kicking Bruce's ass. I do remember that Max was able to keep the bomb was blowing up in "Final Cut." I do remember that Max helped Terry set up the trap for the doctor in "April Moon." I do remember that it was Max Terry turned to in both "Eyewitness" and "Babel." I do remember Max covering for him with Dana. In short, I can't really see where the annoying part comes in.

I'm getting this weird feeling that if max were a "hot, white chick" (like Melanie/Ten) or even a "hot Asian chick" like Dana, everyone would be singing Max's praises. I'm not trying to call anyone racist, but I find it odd that so many people hate a character that's been written in as a help to Terry. Yes, I realize that's she's bungled up a bit, too (Final Cut being the most memorable for me. I've not seen Curse of the Kobra or Zeta). I agree that an official sidekick would have been a bad way to go -- but she was never that. And I think bringing Dana in on the secret would have just been silly: I could just see her trying to plead with Terry to give up the cowl. I understand that Dana was never given much charcter development, but I think that it could be that the writers realized that saddling Terry with a girlfriend was not really the way to go.

I was kind of surprised at the anti Max/Terryism in that thread about Terry's true love. Why not the two of them? In more than one ep, he's said he found her attractive. She knows the secret, and she's shown she can roll with the punches. Dana has broken up with him time and again, and Melanie . . . well, no comment.

Anyways, just looking for answers.

batE

[DR. BELCH]

...I don't hate Max. I do get a bit irked that the writing for her is sometimes uneven--in "Rats" she's just window dressing, and she comes off irksome and even rude in "Curse of the Kobra". But I agree that sometimes she's indispensible, she has a brain and personality, and maybe Terry and Max might kiss in the heat of passion. But I don't think they should be lovers. It isn't a racial issue...it's just that I've learned from experience that you should never date someone you work with/who attends your church because if it goes to blazes you end up hating your job/ resenting God. Pardon my cynicism. Terry and Max are friends and co-workers and should know it isn't wise to take it any further than that.

[Trent Lane]

She's a character you either hate or love, from what I've gathered. I was never too annoyed by her, and yeah she messed up a few times, but hey, that's human nature. I think she's a good character in that Terry can confide in her, I'm just glad she didn't become "Batgirl Beyond"...

[The Mad Hatter]

I'll have to agree... I generally like Max. Occasionally she can be a bit too sassy or a bit too eager, but that's only been a couple of occasions. Overall, she's been handled really well.

[Shriek]

I think Max is cool.

[DerekPowers]

i also dont know why everyone hates max. i always liked her. shes not great, but i think she is a good character and one i like seeing when nesessary. I think she's smart, funny (well corny is more like it), and adds a good dynamic to the show. i have no problem with her. she was good in most of the eps she was in, and what can i say, ive grown fond of her. see ya.

[batE]

Just wanted to thank all for the replies. I may or may not be kicked off the boards shortly for apparent transgressions. Ah well. I hope not. I love talking BB.

Anyways, I just saw "Where's Terry?" today. Do you think Bruce at least bailed Max out of jail? I think they worked halfway-decently as a team.

batE

[Calhoun07]

I never had a problem with Max either. Not one of my all time favorite characters, but it made sense to introduce somebody like that for Terry to talk to, as he could never tell Dana about all of this.

And why would you be kicked off the boards, BatE? I wasn't aware there was a problem with your posts.

[Nightwing]

No big deal. It was about an old Fresh Question that the moderators recieved reports on, so the first mod to notice it reacted to it. Since nothing bad was meant by it after all I see no reason why we can't just let it go. I also replied to the fresh question in question. I'm sure we can just put it behind us.

Anyway, on to the oh so sore topic of Max in BB! Word of warning, those anti-Max people are like vipers! They're more bitter than Bruce Wanye himself after the road the writers took with Max, lemme tell ya! ;)

I don't hate Max either, I'm just more than displeased about how the writers decided to use her as of mid season 2 and season 3. She went from a computer smart book worm teenager Terry could confide in, to someone who's rad and bad and never been had. And as a result, about half of the fans went berserk!

I loved Where's Terry and Max's part in it. I just saw it today to renew my opinion even more. It showed us how awesome a character Bruce is, but not overshadowing Terry in the process. Everyone did their own thing in the story. And even Bruce said she was "good". And she is.

I didn't like a few bits of each character's performance in Final Cut. Old Maid put it best in a post from not to long ago, actually. I think that episode was one of the beginnings for Max's transformation into the "never been had" etc character that came out completely in season 3.

I think in April Moon they took Max's level to an accidental high. She sounded smarter and more inquisitive than Terry is supposed to be. I really liked the ep but had some problems with that, but tiny ones.

Max was fine in Babel (my favorite episode) but I wouldn't say she was confided in really. Terry didn't really like her response to his issue. It was kind of selfish. But he didn't think less of her, he just added it up as some input for what his heart would tell him to do. I wouldn't say Max saved the day at all in that episode, but she played her part.

[Bird Boy]

it's not about the looks..no way!

It's just that she comes off annoying 90% of the time..to me anyway. She's always wineing about how she can't help Terry, and that's annoying to me. Sure, she's helped them plenty of times, but it'd be nice if they changed her character (her personality that is), so she would be less demanding.

-BB

[DerekPowers]

hmmm, you make a good point nightwing, but i'd have to dissagree. i dont think max's character changed too much from season 2 to 3. I think she retained her computer hacker, smart side throughout the series, but as time went on, we got to see more of her character. I find a lot of times, when you get to know more "book wormish" type people, once they open up, they're not so book-wormish at all. thats sort of like max. all she really needed was a few friends around like terry inorder to bust out the "who's bad, who's rad, who's never been had" attitude. I just dont see why a character cant be both "book wormish" and "never been had" (jeez, that line is so corny, but so damn perfect). but thats just my opinion. peace.

[The Old Maid]

To me it seemed that Max is a composite of several character types that don't marry well. On the one hand she was introduced as a you-are-there sidekick, someone for the audience to identify with. On the other hand she was given too many Mary Sue qualities. "Mary Sue" is a term from Star Trek fandom. It's both a character and a writing style. Mary Sues tend to be "conveniently perfect" right out of the box, which makes it hard for everyone in the audience to identify with her. It's usually caused by over-identification by the writer. The writer adores the heroes, wants to meet them, and creates an idealized self to interact with them. You-are-theres and Mary Sues tend to take over whatever mythos they're in. That's the part that's not too popular with fans who wanted to see the characters who actually "live" there.

Gene Roddenberry (the man credited with inventing Trek) is a classic example. He said in an interview that he was a sickly child who couldn't go out to play with the other children. But he went on to say that he was so smart that the other children didn't like him. He tried repeatedly to create Mary Sues. Would have made Ensign Chekov into one if there had been a fourth season of Trek. (The actor, Walter Koenig, printed the memo in his book.) Twenty years later Roddie was at it again. He took a nice, likeable character and rewrote him, probably to live his childhood over again and get it right. If Mozart began composing at age 4, this character would do marvels of engineering at age 15. It made the flagship's real crew look dopey, but Roddie loved him. You've probably heard of this unfortunate. His name was Wesley Crusher. It's just kind of hard to see this happening in the Bat mythos and be powerless to do anything about it.

I'll definitely agree Max saved Wayne's neck in "Where's Terry." (I'm thinking he made Terry pay his own money to bail her out, though. It just sounds like the sort of thing he'd do.) And Max's speech in "Babel" was virtually flawless. I thought it hit an off note when Max compared her loss to the losses of Terry's loved ones, but overall a good speech. So why do I keep noticing it? Because a writer's job is to show not tell. Max's speech tells us what Terry would have lost, but it hasn't got the emotional impact of showing. That's all.

[batE]

Whoa. Excellent post, there, OM.

I'm a huge Trek fan (though I'll admit, I only watched 2-3 eps., tops, of Voyager), and scarily enuf, Wesley was my favorite TNG character (Prolly cause I had such a crush on Wil Wheaton to begin with). I didn't learn about his MS characters until I got into fanfic. It's scary that they would have made Chekov into an MS . .. that would be rather a stretch, I think, since he was virtually a nonentity in the show.


BUT getting back to the topic, I could see how Max could be considered an MS, and then I could see how she sorta fails the litmus test. Yes, she is smart -- almost unbelievably so (I watched Once Burned yesterday, and I couldn't get my head around the fact that she could hack into the defense department's mainframe and download pictures from the satellite. That, to me, seemed . . . sort of unbelievable). She does seem to be the you-are-there person most times . . . the "regular" chick dealing with superheroes, etc. But then, and correct me if I'm wrong here, I thought that a typical MS was introduced to either a) be a love interest to a main character b) do something heroic and then tragically die or c) do something heroic and be accepted as part of the team.

Max was neither Terry's love interest, nor did she have one herself. Yeah, she had a flirtation with Jared Tate and with Xander (sp?), but she didn't have a regular guy, and she was never written as the "serious" rival to Dana -- Melanie/Ten was. Max, of course, didn't die in the series, though she came close quite a few times. And, of course, Max was not taken in as part of the Bat family, even though she'd been a help to them, and even though Bruce accepted her helping Terry (and him) on occasion.

Also, I thought Mary Sues were supposed to be these impossibly physically perfect beings. i always thought Wesley was (though I'm biased, I'll admit). Max is beautiful, but she's different. I mean, Melanie was more the all-American beautiful and Dana was more the "exotic" beautiful. Max was one of those people you'd look twice at (prolly because of the pink hair), and would think "She's hot," but not exactly know why.


But it's a grand point . . . she has been given some MS qualities, and that is kind of unfortunate. But I still love the character. Perhaps if the show had been given ANOTHER SEASON (Darn WB), her character would have become a tad more realistic.


batE

[The Old Maid]

If you get a chance, pick up Koenig's book "Warped factors." The memo is on p. 187.

True, a lot of Mary Sues die, but if they live they usually do one of two other things. If it's a crisis, MS is She Who Solves the Problem. If it's a love story, MS is She Who Must Be Loved. But as for Max being near-perfect in looks, she nailed that right on the head. Without giving away any spoilers, the reasons Xander wanted her was that she was beautiful but also perfect and imperfect in just the right combination for his tastes.

I have to agree with Derek Powers about Max not actually changing in the series. She always loved vidgames (was playing them in "Bloodsport"). I think it was actually "Hidden agenda" that was a bit inconsistent with what we saw later. She's a gracious winner and thanks Carter/Terminal for his compliments, but usually she's not that modest. I'd say she's been fairly consistent.

I think everyone's miserable about not getting a season 4. In a way I'm angry but I'm not. The rumor was that Season 4 would be half Justice League. They needed their own show instead, so I'm glad they got it. Batman and the JL don't really go together. They'd have to spend the whole season developing these extra heroes, their problems, their villains, etc. etc. etc. I doubt anyone from BB would have gotten more development. Maybe after the movie?

Oh, and batE, you mentioned you liked FanFics ; we've got a FanFic message board here you might enjoy. Check it out!

[Blade]

I really don't think Max changed much from season 2 to 3. However, it was odd that they just introduced her all of a sudden. The episode Hidden Agenda made it seem like Terry and Max were like good old buddies. I was like, if they are such good friends, where was Max last season? I don't recall seeing her at all in season 1. Then you saw her in like every episode in season 2. I think it was a mistake on the part of the writers to introduce a character who is supposed to be close to Terry so late in the series. Anyway, season1 and 3 were like Bruce and Terry/Batman time. Season 2 was Terry and everybody else.

However, the ever so slight changes that Max underwent made her character better. It made her more human, because in real life people do not stay constant. I also think that the writers wanted to break the smart stereotype. They wanted to show that smart people are not boring and don't wear glasses all the time. At first glance, Max does not seem like the genius.

In Season 3, I believe everyone grew up a little. I think Max finally got used to Terry being Batman. Therefore she isn't so overzealous.

[James]

Hmm, I've noticed all the Max haters have disappeared into the woodwork - hmm, maybe the racial card you played.... people don't like to speak up when they fear that the race issue may come into it... I really don't believe that the hatred for the Max character is anything to do with the colour ink they use for her skin tone...

I don't like Max at all. I gave her the chance - I remained open minded (and in fact, I was quite hopeful about her inclusion as it seemed to imply that ther series was going to be willing to change the formula) what annoyed me was how she was used.

Max as a character is vaguely annoying - the Mary Sue Fanfic analogy is a good one. But I think what has really got everyone's knickers in a twist was the way she became an easy replacement for all the older characters. If Terry needs a confide, it's Max he talks to... not Dana.. if he needs someone to help him, he'll talk to Max not Bruce. In fact even his family took a back seat to Max.

Now I'm not saying Dana is the most amazing character in the world... in fact she holds an episode together (Rats) pretty poorly. But her place is in the background - as should Max. But as for Max stealing Bruce's limelight... and you're surprised that people hate her!!!!??

If there was another series, I'd keep Max in. But only so far as Nelson and Dana get screen time. Series 2 became dull.... you lost the variety of characters and the ones you had got used to were just thrown aside to bring forth the multi talented hip character (and we all knew this was a management plan too!).

So I don't like Max. In fact, more accurately, I resent Max. Although she ain't truely a Mary Sue, she makes the show suffer as Mary Sue Fan fiction does.

The only benefit Max has given me was the feeling of pure glee when Max was carted away by the police in 'Where's Terry?".. heh heh.. Bruce get's his revenge for stealing his limelight...

[freebooter]

Max is okay. I just feel that they overuse her. She should be there only to corroborate Terry's fake alibis. Not as a side kick.

[Maxie Zeus]

It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is about Max that sets our teeth on edge. I think SJJ is on target in saying it's mostly resentment that gets aimed at her. There's also a cascading sameness to the character. Mostly she's there as an emotional crutch (which Dana should be, as SJJ points out), or to solve a technical problem. In between, she never does anything truly witty or intelligent or surprising, and her character winds up being somewhat grating over time.

And no, it's not a racial thing. Ro on "The Zeta Project" is struck from the same vein as Max, and excites much the same antipathy in many of the same viewers. (OK, in this viewer, at least.)

Terry nailed her place in the BB cosmos when in "Hidden Agenda" he teasingly called her "Alfred." And note the comparison: Alfred is relatively invisible in the Batman universe, and that reticence gives his appearances a slightly magical quality, as though he were a genie that Bruce could summon to provide the small creature comforts that help preserve his sanity. Max is constantly imposing herself. Is there any doubt that if Alfred acted like Max that viewers and readers would eagerly vote to see him pushed off a very tall cliff into a very deep sea?

[James]

Maxie Zeus:
Max is constantly imposing herself. Is there any doubt that if Alfred acted like Max that viewers and readers would eagerly vote to see him pushed off a very tall cliff into a very deep sea?

Absolutely perfect example! We all have a soft spot for Alfred, but if he was constantly overused as Bruce's crutch/sidekick/voice of reason/advisor then I think we'd all get pretty sick of him too.

Batman Beyond lost a lot of diversity with Max - Instead of gaining a whole new character to add to the 'team', we in fact ended up losing all the background characters which help flesh out a series!

In fact, I began to get pretty bored with the programme after a while, and when the Zeta/Max episode aired I had to go and play with my building blocks. That was bad, mate.

[The Old Maid]

Originally posted by SJJ

If there was another series, I'd keep Max in. But only so far as Nelson and Dana get screen time.

Interesting that you mention Nelson. A lot of fans don't realize just how many scenes he got in this series. Maybe when the fans had so much fun watching Nelson get beat up once, the writers decided to do it as often as possible. He got more screen time than Blight and Inque put together. That says something about the show's priorities.



Now I'm not saying Dana is the most amazing character in the world...in fact she holds an episode together (Rats) pretty poorly.

I mentioned this on the WF Editorials page, but Dana shouldn't be blamed for "Rats." That episode would be bizarre whether it starred Dana, Chelsea, a stranger, or Max. In fact it DID star Max. "Curse of the Kobra" was mostly a reprise of "Rats." The leading lady says something annoying. LL talks to Terry on the phone. LL is kidnapped by a manimal who says, "Let me take you away from all this." Terry rescues LL. The End. But Dana and Max didn't make those episodes weird. They just get blamed for it because they were there. The nurse is associated with the sickroom, so to speak.

So if fans like or dislike a character, it should be for what the characters themselves do. They didn't want to be in those episodes.

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Terry nailed [Max's] place in the BB cosmos when in "Hidden agenda" he teasingly calls her "Alfred." And note the comparison: Alfred is relatively invisible in the Batman universe, and that reticence gives his appearances a slightly magical quality, as though he were a genie that Bruce could summon to provide the small creature comforts that help preserve his sanity. Max is constantly imposing herself.

A lot of fans don't knw that Alfred was a retired spy ("The lion and the unicorn"). One reason Batman lets Aflred tell him what to do is that Alfred has actually done this job before. That's why he knows just what Bruce needs, and when he needs to be left alone.

[James]

Old Maid:
I mentioned this on the WF Editorials page, but Dana shouldn't be blamed for "Rats." That episode would be bizarre whether it starred Dana, Chelsea, a stranger, or Max. In fact it DID star Max. "Curse of the Kobra" was mostly a reprise of "Rats." The leading lady says something annoying. LL talks to Terry on the phone. LL is kidnapped by a manimal who says, "Let me take you away from all this." Terry rescues LL. The End. But Dana and Max didn't make those episodes weird. They just get blamed for it because they were there. The nurse is associated with the sickroom, so to speak.

This becomes a circular argument. As we are not looking at the story but to the use of characters in a story to make it interesting.

To say that anyone could have filled the main role and it would still have been rubbish, is to me, academic. It wasn't the story I thought was poor, it was Dana's role.

Rats was clearly a vehicle for Dana and Terry - bringing their relationship into the foreground. However, Dana just didn't hold it together. I wasn't looking for the story for interest, but her role in Terry's life (an element hinted at from the beginning of the episode).

Obviously we can only blame the writers. For whatever reason, they couldn't produce a story which could deal with the couple's dilemma (probably due to the suits demanding action and large explosions). The result was that the only Dana episode was dull.

Fair enough, it would be unfair to say Dana is a boring character, but it would be fair to say there is little for the writers to do with the character that will make her interesting enough to lead a story - not without introducing character development that is unsuitable for kids (eg; any character development at all).

[Nightwing]

I think I agree with SSJ. I don't blame Dana for RATS though, but I do blame the writers because by the end of the episode, I was just lost as all heck about what was going through her head at the time. From what I could get out of it, I think (that's THINK) we're all supposed to realize that in that particular episode, she's stuck up. I'll watch the episode because of Terry and Mad Stan, but nothing else except for maybe Dana's dress. :p

[batE]

I just read Old Maid's wonderful treatise on the supporting cast of BB. While I admire the craftsmanship and insight of the piece, I still can't shake the feeling that Dana is being unjustly canonized. OM mentioned in her piece on Dana that Max and Terry think she's stupid. Well, IMO, she IS somewhat dense. She has a guy who is constantly breaking dates for (what she feels is) no reason at all, they don't talk, they spend no time together, and at least once they broke up completely. Yet, she stays with him. Sorry, but if this were real life, she'd be a candidate for Jerry Springer.

I think I dislike Dana's character because she was ill-conceived and not well-thought out. As OM pointed out "The girlfriend" is new to the Bat mythos. In Dana, I can understand why. Her purpose seemed to be to look good, scream at Terry for breaking dates, and then, ultimately, make up with him. I think that the writers probably had high-flown plans for her, but decided, for whatever reason, not to go ahead with them. That effectively made her into a one-dimensional character. I think that they realized too late that intoducing a girlfriend was not going to work well, hence they did their best to introduce "tension" (Melanie/Ten), and then when that seemed to flag, they started writing her out almost completely (seasons 2,3).

I disagree with OM's saying that Max insinuated herself on Dana and Terry's dates. I have a guy. I have firends with and without love interests. I love my buds. But if I want a romantic date with my guy, no matter what, NOBODY'S tagging along. Max is neither pathetic nor unattractive (arguably, Howard is both), and I'm sure she wouldn't even suggest coming along with Dana and Terry on their good times, unless SOMEONE (probably Terry) invited her. And for good reason: If Terry's cellphone rings, he's gotta dash. Max can do a combination of damage control for Terry when he leaves and keep Dana company. I think Harold's got a thing for Dana and/or Max, and I think Dana, Terry and Max all feel sorry for him, so that's why he is often the fourth wheel.


I don't mean to beat a dead horse: People are going to like and dislike whichever characters they choose. Maxhaters aren't going to become Maxfans based on what I say, and vice-versa. But i do know that I wasn't the one who deeloped the characters: the writers did. And I'm sure they did what they did with Max, Terry and Dana for a reason -- what that is, I've no idea. I firmly beleive they might hae been setting up a Max/Terry situation if the series had continued. But perhaps that's just me.

batE

[Bud 'n Lou]

Originally posted by Nightwing
I'll watch the episode because of Terry and Mad Stan, but nothing else except for maybe Dana's dress. :p

Ya know, I think they make it in your size, big boy.
Sorry, couldn't resist. :O)

[Shriek]

Ha Ha! A dude in a dress. Heh Heh Heh. Good one Bud.

[James]

Originally posted by batE

I don't mean to beat a dead horse: People are going to like and dislike whichever characters they choose. Maxhaters aren't going to become Maxfans based on what I say, and vice-versa. But i do know that I wasn't the one who deeloped the characters: the writers did. And I'm sure they did what they did with Max, Terry and Dana for a reason -- what that is, I've no idea. I firmly beleive they might hae been setting up a Max/Terry situation if the series had continued. But perhaps that's just me.


I agree/disagree. I think Dana was very much and undeveloped character and one whose role required fleshing out. As OM and yourself point out, Dana - The Girlfriend - is a new ingredient to the mythos. For that reason, I think they should have worked harder with her.
Yeah, 'Rats' was a faliure, but it did introduce some points that could have been studied and embelished a wee bit more. Her family (or should I say father) and Dana's relationship to him, her father's dislike for Terry. All of which could have been utilized at a further date.

Now I'm afraid, this is the bit you probably won't like. I think the reason Dana never progressed any further than 'Rats' was because of the introduction of Max. Max was given a great deal of storylines and charater progression (for a cartoon, anyway). Dana was shoved into the background and Max -IMO- hogged the limelight (even from Terry on occasions). Whether you like Max as a character doesn't change the fact that Max stole a hell of a lot of episodes from the support characters.

I had hoped to see Dana evolve into more of a Mary Jane Watson character. Perhaps that may have once been on the cards (with Terry being based ever so slightly more on Peter Parker than Bruce Wayne) so in respect, I think Dana's dilemma could have been effectively staged - as Mary Jane had to put up with Peter's disappearances before and after she knew of his alter-ego.

Dana lost out to the writer's ham fisted approach to Max. Pity. IMO.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by batE


I disagree with OM's saying that Max insinuated herself on Dana and Terry's dates. I have a guy. I have firends with and without love interests. I love my buds. But if I want a romantic date with my guy, no matter what, NOBODY'S tagging along. Max is neither pathetic nor unattractive (arguably, Howard is both), and I'm sure she wouldn't even suggest coming along with Dana and Terry on their good times, unless SOMEONE (probably Terry) invited her. And for good reason: If Terry's cellphone rings, he's gotta dash. Max can do a combination of damage control for Terry when he leaves and keep Dana company. I think Harold's got a thing for Dana and/or Max, and I think Dana, Terry and Max all feel sorry for him, so that's why he is often the fourth wheel.

batE

This is a REALLY good observation, and one that made me appreciate one line of analysis on the Dana/Max characters I haven't seen on these boards. We spend our time complaining about how they detract from the action and adventure, but without actually asking (as batE and OM have done): what would it actually BE like for these girls to have a relationship with a guy who's Batman. I guess one thing I really admire about what OM and batE have had to say is, they're awfully good at approaching these characters from the inside out (and so have given me--for one--a new appreciation on why those characters act as they do) instead of concentrating on Terry's or Bruce's (external) perspective.

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


This is a REALLY good observation, and one that made me appreciate one line of analysis on the Dana/Max characters I haven't seen on these boards. We spend our time complaining about how they detract from the action and adventure, but without actually asking (as batE and OM have done): what would it actually BE like for these girls to have a relationship with a guy who's Batman. I guess one thing I really admire about what OM and batE have had to say is, they're awfully good at approaching these characters from the inside out (and so have given me--for one--a new appreciation on why those characters act as they do) instead of concentrating on Terry's or Bruce's (external) perspective.

At the same time, by using Max as a the third wheel, so to speak, enabling the writers to get Terry out of awkward situations, they end up dodging the issue of Dana and Terry. I think the Dana/Terry/Max relationship is not unusual with Teens and I think Terry letting his best friend in on the secret rather than his girl is quite likely too.
However, in terms of writing, this approach can create a stale formula as no issues within the dynamic are resolved.
Terry shots off from Dana, Max does her best damage control and helps both Terry and Dana, Terry beats bad guys, happish family unit at the end.
Remove Max (sorry Max!) and you have some issues to deal with. The writers actually have to think. How are we going to get Terry away from this one? How will Dana react? How can we justify Dana staying with Terry? How does Terry feel about leaving/exposing his girl to danger?
Now, knowing it's just a kids cartoon, you could argue that Max's inclusion was unavoidable. They can't really have the time to fit explosions and character issues into one episode, so Max gets them out of a tight corner. If Max wasn't there, the writers may have had to result to silly cliches to get Terry distance from Dana to transform into his alter-ego (like Superman - 'What's that over there Lois? Opps! I've fallen down this lift shaft!').

I don't think the creative team could have been much of a fan of Max and included her very much for the reasons above. Interesting when they had a chance to do a more adult (although in the end, that too was watered down) film - ROTJ - Max wasn't in it and Dana's inclusion did deal with the Terry scenario. Dana's mates are pushing her to break up with him, their relationship is strained, and push comes to shove, he doesn't protect her as Batman - as the series would resort to - he protects her as Terry, her boyfriend. Admittedly. there is none too much of Dana, but what there is of her and Terry is more than you get in series 2 of the series...

Perhaps another reason why ROTJ is a rather nifty movie - even in it's neutered state!!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ
At the same time, by using Max as a the third wheel, so to speak, enabling the writers to get Terry out of awkward situations, they end up dodging the issue of Dana and Terry. I think the Dana/Terry/Max relationship is not unusual with Teens and I think Terry letting his best friend in on the secret rather than his girl is quite likely too.

However, in terms of writing, this approach can create a stale formula as no issues within the dynamic are resolved.

I agree that this is a problem episode-by-episode, but it did create a series-wide potential for development.

Terry has divided his life in two and shares each part with a different girl: With Dana he's boyfriend but not Batman, while with Max he's Batman but not boyfriend. This creates a situation which ultimately he must resolve. Either he reintegrates his life by combining both roles with one friend, or he chooses to drop one relationship entirely (choosing either to go solo as Bruce did, or to give up the mantle). Note that pursuing this tension would develop both Terry AND the two girls, and it's a tension that should have been worked out over the series.

There were opportunities. "Rats!" was an episode in which his romantic life was jeopardized by his Bat-life, and which was not solved by his racing to her rescue in the Batman guise. This could have been the first clue that things could not continue this way. "Curse of the Kobra," in which Max is the object of "unwanted attentions" is a place where he could have discovered a sense of sexual jealousy over Xander's attentions to Max, and caused him to question what kind of relationship he wanted with Max. Cumulatively, such stories might have forced Terry into a place where he had to make some kind of fundamental choice.

Of course, this didn't happen, so that the stasis you rightly discern in each episode infected the series as a whole. But I'm not sure the creation of the Max and Dana relationships would have led unavoidably to this point.

Again, that's one reason I very much like batE and OM's observations, for by taking these two seriously as characters with their own motives and desires, and hence capable of altering the Bat universe and not merely as architectural conceits ("the Girlfriend," "the Acolyte") they have opened my eyes to possibilities that are not apparent simply with a plot analysis.

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Again, that's one reason I very much like batE and OM's observations, for by taking these two seriously as characters with their own motives and desires, and hence capable of altering the Bat universe and not merely as architectural conceits ("the Girlfriend," "the Acolyte") they have opened my eyes to possibilities that are not apparent simply with a plot analysis.

In other words, studying what is presented on our screen rather that how or why it is presented - and so not falling back onto critizing the structural creativity of the episode.

Character de-construction within the confines of the story is something I too have not really looked at in relation to that background characters in Batman Beyond. I have remarked on the main leads - Terry, Wayne and the Joker in the 'McGinnis Vs Wayne' and other such similar threads - but not the background characters.

Perhaps a little homework wouldn't go amiss here.....

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ

Character de-construction within the confines of the story is something I too have not really looked at in relation to that background characters in Batman Beyond. I have remarked on the main leads - Terry, Wayne and the Joker in the 'McGinnis Vs Wayne' and other such similar threads - but not the background characters.

Perhaps a little homework wouldn't go amiss here.....

Certainly we (or maybe just I) have serious work to do in the hopes of catching up to Old Maid and batE in this department. . . .;)

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou


Ya know, I think they make it in your size, big boy.
Sorry, couldn't resist. :O)

lol, Actually I meant on DANA. It's her dress anyways, duh. :p

[batE]

Whooee! SJJ and Maxie Zeus . . . making me think on a Monday. Who'da thunk it. At any rate:


Both of you make wonderful points. And forgive me if I paraphrase here : I don't know how to do the stinking quote thingy :P Assistance, please?


Anyways, I'll tackle one of the many intriguing observations from Maxie Zeus. Namely Terry's role as boyfriend, not Bat with Dana and Bat, not boyfriend with Max. You are right, MZ -- the writers would have done well to at least have him ponder "consolidation," as it were by either coming clean about his nightlife to Dana (IMO, the least attractive option as it would possibly put her in danger and/or she might think he's yanking her, and not believe him) or by realizing that Max and he would be good together romantically (That's flawed, too: She seems to want to get in on the action whenever possible, and Terry trying to keep Max out of trouble isn't romantic, IMO). But he should have at LEAST had the thoughts, one way or trhe other. And there was opportunity: In Rats, he could've dropped a hint to Dana (though she did say "How did you know I was down here") about his true identity. In Curse of the Kobra (Which I can't wait to tape this week!), he and Max could've locked lips at some point: I'm sure of it. But neither happened, and it did seem to be wastes of prime opportunities.


SJJ makes the fabulous point that Max gave the writers an easy out in many occasions. In Speak No Evil, Max feigns hunger so Terry can get away. In Hidden Agenda, Max contrives the excuse so that Terry doesn't get in dutch with Dana. And on, and on. Was Max introduced just as a plot device and then the writers fell in love with her character? Perhaps. Were they a tad heavy-handed with her? OK, I'll grant you that. Maybe it would have been nice to see Matt or Mary speak more than three lines or see a Dana episode that was better than Rats. But as you point out, SJJ, the show was woefully short. Having Terry come up with convoluted excuses to Dana would have wasted valuable time. And in terms of the show, there could have been a loss of life or something else catastrophic while Terry was trying to finagle his way out of a date.


As for Max's exclusion from ROTJ (which disappointed me greatly, I might add), I wonder if the "time line," so to speak, was before Max's first appearance. Therefore, she couldn't have been included . . . at least not in the way she was used in the rest of the show. But who knows?


I wonder if the writers had big plans for Dana and then scrapped them either due to time constraints or lack of interest. I think that the main problem I had with her character was that she seemed so apathetic to the whole Batman thing. And, because this is Batman Beyond, she just seemed to be THERE.

For example, to my knowledge, she NEVER expressed interest in Batman at all -- his identity, his motives, etc., like a Lois Lane or even a Mary Jane Parker did. It was Max who made up the program to try to discern Batman's identity. Dana didn't even seem interested. How hard would it have been for the writers to have DANA want to find out the Bat's identity, ASK Max to jerryrig a program, and then, when the Jokerz struck and Max rewrote her program, ask Max for the preliminary data? That way, she could have continued the research, and she would have been more tied in to the storyline.

OR perhaps one could have taken the anti-Lois Lane approach. You remember how Terry screwed up the sting in Eyewitness? Perhaps he could have walked in on what seemed to be a robbery at a big corporation and wounded the would-be robber. But turns out, the robber wasn't a robber at all, but Dana's dad who was there testing out some shadowy gizmo? Maybe he gets wounded so badly that he can't walk or see or hear, etc. Of course, like all others who were wounded in some way by Batman, Mr. Tan comes to hate him, and Dana, by extension, hates him, too, and becomes obssessed with finding out his identity. That would set up some neat angst scenes with Terry, too: He'd be wracked with guilt and having to deal with his girlfriend spitting fire and vitriol about his alter-ego. Again, that scenario would have tied Dana more to the action and made her more relevant, perhaps.

Why the writers didn't think to do any of that, I'll never know. But their dropping the ball on Dana's character (IMO, anyways), is why there's such a strong Ten/Terry and (at least on fanfiction.net) Terry/Max faction.


batE

[James]

Originally posted by batE
Whooee! SJJ and Maxie Zeus . . . making me think on a Monday. Who'da thunk it. At any rate:


That's a rather nice opening sentence - I like that!! Well, a post like this deserves a serious reply.... on we go....!



Both of you make wonderful points. And forgive me if I paraphrase here : I don't know how to do the stinking quote thingy :P Assistance, please?


If you look along the bar on the top of each post there is a reply option. Click this, and the reply box will appear complete with the message you are replying to in quotation form!!


Maybe it would have been nice to see Matt or Mary speak more than three lines or see a Dana episode that was better than Rats.


I agree, Terry's family as a unit was woefully underused. Again, I point a little towards the heavy handed use of Max, although in all fairness, there was little expansion of these characters in series 1 and I don't think they intended to either.



But as you point out, SJJ, the show was woefully short. Having Terry come up with convoluted excuses to Dana would have wasted valuable time. And in terms of the show, there could have been a loss of life or something else catastrophic while Terry was trying to finagle his way out of a date.


Again, because it's written for kids, explosions are priority and character development comes second.



As for Max's exclusion from ROTJ (which disappointed me greatly, I might add), I wonder if the "time line," so to speak, was before Max's first appearance. Therefore, she couldn't have been included . . . at least not in the way she was used in the rest of the show. But who knows?


Good point, and one I have often wondered but never dared to ask (I'm shy!) - where does ROTJ fit into the BB timeline? I always imagine it at the very end (however not seeing the final episode I may be contradicting events am I yet to witness). I always see it as the fulfillment of Terry's role as Batman.

I think Max, being more of a polictical inclusion in BB (the need for a hip youngster to lighten the show and bring in more young watchers) was a choice the creative team wasn't to happy with (if you were writing the furture tales of the dark knight would you like to include a hip light weight character to 'lighten up' your dark moody series? I think not!). In this light she may have been denied inclusion to keep the film dark and nasty. With the studio having less creative control over the movie (well, that would have been the theory!) they may have moved Max because she simply wasn't neccessary. I get the impression that Max's involvement in series 2 may have been quite often mandatory - and sometimes may have messed up a story just because of the studio's desire to lighten the subject matter.
This is all guess work - so don't take any of that as gospel!!!



I wonder if the writers had big plans for Dana and then scrapped them either due to time constraints or lack of interest. I think that the main problem I had with her character was that she seemed so apathetic to the whole Batman thing. And, because this is Batman Beyond, she just seemed to be THERE.


I agree. I wonder if the team would have ever risked exposing Terry's secret to her if Max hadn't come along. Perhaps the studio felt she just wasn't up to scratch for any heavy involvelment in story lines.

I think I'll take the time here to make a rather controversial point. The reason Dana was included in BB, or rather the girlfriend character, was not for any new or 'hip' alteration to the Batman universe. I notice Maxie was saying how the inclusion of the girlfriend was a new progression to the mythos.
I think there maybe a little more to it than that.

I remember reading that when 'Doctor Who' started in the 60's that the 'assistant' to the Doctor was a girl called Susan Foreman. This was rapidly changed when someone mentioned the sex card.... Could this old man be having sex with this young assistant? Would someone think this could be the case? The script was altered and she was made the Doctor's grandaughter.

In the 50's, the Batman comic came under scrutiny, when someone came up with ever so unlikely prospect of Bruce and Dick being involved in a sexual relationship. To combat this, the Bat Family was introduced (BatWoman, BatGirl, Ace etc) to make it totally clear that our heroes were interested in WOMEN not each other.

I think the same sort of fear is being catered for here. Young boy spending all his time in a cave with an old man? Could this man be -ahem- currupting this young boy? To make sure the message is clear, the girlfriend is introduced to make sure there is no doubt that the boy's interests lie elsewhere.....

This may sound paranoid, but this is a fear that studio execs are acutely aware of. You'd be suprised how many shows have been altered to make sure that homsexuality is never implied.... I'm sure there are other obvious examples that I can't think of....



Why the writers didn't think to do any of that, I'll never know. But their dropping the ball on Dana's character (IMO, anyways), is why there's such a strong Ten/Terry and (at least on fanfiction.net) Terry/Max faction.
batE [/B]

Totally. Dana lost out big time. Shame this series wasn't made for a more adult audience otherwise I think some of your examples may have been played out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised the sort of storylines you describe were submitted only to be rejected as being too involved and emotionally complicated for kids....

[The Old Maid]

Originally posted by batE
I don't know how to do the stinking quote thingy :P Assistance, please?



Glad to help. There are two control bars with each post ; one above (near your name) and one below. Go to the post you wanted to quote from and let your mouse hover over the REPLY icon. You should get a REPLY WITH QUOTE popup message.

If you click the REPLY button at the bottom of the post, you don't get a quote.




I wonder if the ROTJ timeline was before Max's first appearance.



No, it was after "King's Ransom." All the Powers pretenders-to-the-throne were out of business, which was why the battle for CEO came down to Wayne or a new enemy.




I wonder if the writers had big plans for Dana and then scrapped them either due to time constraints or lack of interest. For example, to my knowledge, she NEVER expressed interest in Batman at all -- his identity, his motives, etc., like a Lois Lane or even a Mary Jane Parker did. It was Max who made up the program to try to discern Batman's identity. Dana didn't even seem interested.



Yes, I think they simply lost interest in her. Hence her multiple personality problems. I look at the character who could have been and groan at the mess they made of her. I don't think more time would have made a difference, though. No amount of time makes up for a lack of vision or planning. Hmm ... as for the sleuthing out Batman's identity, it bothered me. Still does. I don't WANT to know the names and faces of the undercover cops out there keeping me safe. It could get them killed, and me too if anyone found out I knew. Kind of defeats the purpose of undercover.

I agree with the idea of using Mr. Tan to explore Terry and Dana's future (especially to answer whether they're going to have one). To me it would be simpler and more effective if Tan asks : "Okay, this reformed boyfriend of yours. What exactly is this job?"

Dana : "Uhhhhhh, I dunno."

Tan : "You don't know."

Dana : "He runs errands and sometimes he drives the car --"

Tan : "Great. My daughter's dating a chauffeur. I'll be laughed off the golf course."

Would've been fun to invite Terry to dinner at the Tan residence. Tan would want specific answers, and if Terry ran out during dinner because Mad Stan is out again ... Sigh. A little late now!

Oh, and thanks for the kind words! I think there's still time if you want to send in a Pro Vs. Con of your own. Basically they're about any controversial figure or story that has, for better or worse, changed the course of Batman or Superman's mythologies.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
Glad to help. There are two control bars with each post ; one above (near your name) and one below. Go to the post you wanted to quote from and let your mouse hover over the REPLY icon. You should get a REPLY WITH QUOTE popup message.

If you click the REPLY button at the bottom of the post, you don't get a quote.


And to which I will add that if you want to quote from more than one post in your reply, below the edit box for your reply you will find the most recent (and in short threads all) the previous replies. You can highlight the text you want, and do a copy and paste into the edit box of your reply. If you want to put this copy/paste job into the same "quote" format as with the "Reply" option OM discussed, you can either hit the Quote control button above the edit box (just above the box that says "Use these controls to insert vBcode" and to the far right) and paste the quoted text into the dialogue box that pops up.

When you do this, you'll notice some odd words and symbols that pop up, like "[/QUOTE]". These are the codes that tell the boards how to format your text. The word "QUOTE" in brackets by itself is the start of the quote (that's why I can't reproduce it here), and with the / in front tells it to turn the quote off. By writing these codes in more than one place, you can break up the big quote you start off with with the "Reply with Quote" feature into smaller quotes, like SJJ did in his reply.

You can practice these maneuvers on "The Test Board," BTW, in case you are worried about messing up. Between SJJ, OM and me, I hope this helps without being too confusing! :)

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
[ROTJ] was after "King's Ransom." All the Powers pretenders-to-the-throne were out of business, which was why the battle for CEO came down to Wayne or a new enemy.

I remember you explaining your handle, OM, as a protective device way back in the day when imposters were a problem. With observations like this, maybe you should consider changing it to something like "Eye of the Eagle." Good catch on internal continuity! ;)


Originally posted by The Old Maid
I agree with the idea of using Mr. Tan to explore Terry and Dana's future (especially to answer whether they're going to have one). To me it would be simpler and more effective if Tan asks : "Okay, this reformed boyfriend of yours. What exactly is this job?"

Would've been fun to invite Terry to dinner at the Tan residence. Tan would want specific answers, and if Terry ran out during dinner because Mad Stan is out again ... Sigh. A little late now!

I also like batE's suggestion about Dana becoming curious about Batman's identity, though not as a running device (like Lois and Superman). It would have added more tension if she did dislike Batman while loving Terry, and would have nicely accentuated his conflict over his relationships (if there HAD been a conflict). OM's great "scene that should have been but wasn't" would have introduced even more juice, as maybe Dana herself began to feel conflicted about Terry.

My great worry would have been that the writers would have just kept spinning variations on how many time Dana narrowly misses finding out Terry's identity; a conflict like this (Will Dana discover that her boyfriend is really the superhero she loathes? Will Terry have the nerve to confess, or will her dump her for Max?) would work only as part of an arc whose resolution is designed to launch Terry more firmly into the Batman role. That's an ambitious order; I'm sure Timm, Burnett, Dini and the rest have all at one time or another stood in a circle kicking each other in the arse over missed opportunities in BB.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ
I remember reading that when 'Doctor Who' started in the 60's that the 'assistant' to the Doctor was a girl called Susan Foreman. This was rapidly changed when someone mentioned the sex card.... Could this old man be having sex with this young assistant? Would someone think this could be the case? The script was altered and she was made the Doctor's grandaughter.

In the 50's, the Batman comic came under scrutiny, when someone came up with ever so unlikely prospect of Bruce and Dick being involved in a sexual relationship. To combat this, the Bat Family was introduced (BatWoman, BatGirl, Ace etc) to make it totally clear that our heroes were interested in WOMEN not each other.

I think the same sort of fear is being catered for here. Young boy spending all his time in a cave with an old man? Could this man be -ahem- currupting this young boy? To make sure the message is clear, the girlfriend is introduced to make sure there is no doubt that the boy's interests lie elsewhere.....

This may sound paranoid, but this is a fear that studio execs are acutely aware of. You'd be suprised how many shows have been altered to make sure that homsexuality is never implied.... I'm sure there are other obvious examples that I can't think of....

This wouldn't surprise me, though the girlfriend thing might have occurred to the producers and execs independent of any worries about unwanted subtexts. With teen shows the first thing you ask yourself as a writer is, Is he/she gettin' any, and if not why not? If Terry's going to be a healthy, red-blooded American boy they're going to give him a lay interest to show it, and obviously it's going to be a heterosexual one.

Actually, when I saw your title I thought maybe we might be getting something kicky and kinky, about gay subtexts ACTUALLY in the show. None come to my mind, but then "Out of the Past" has enough sexual and gender perversity in it to fill several episodes. To those who think of WB as a bunch of hopeless fussbudgets, I say Look at OotP. Either the BS&P at KWB is utterly clueless, or are much more relaxed than we give them credit for!

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Either the BS&P at KWB is utterly clueless, or are much more relaxed than we give them credit for!

I think it's the former, actually! ;)

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ


I think it's the former, actually! ;)

I dunno. Censors are paid to have dirty minds.

Remember in BTAS' episode "P.O.V." where the gangster is chasing Montoya around with a giant drill? Apparently that was a lot more intense in the first go-round and the Fox censors insisted that it be trimmed because, in the words of the head of Fox BS&P, it was "the most horrible rape fantasy" she'd ever seen.

I didn't notice that aspect to the sequence at all when I saw it!

[The Old Maid]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


I like batE's suggestion about Dana becoming curious about Batman's identity, though not as a running device (like Lois and Superman).

Hmm. I guess I'm not clarifying my point well. I don't want ANYONE spying on Batman. It's his LIFE! Terry's life is not a game or a toy to be played with. And as I mentioned, undercover lawmen are undercover for our protection, not just their own.

I see Dana's (wasted) potential to be that of a choice. Terry can become a solid citizen, have a home and a family ; or he can end up alone, married to the work. When Dana's character deteriorated into an unattractive hanger-on, it made Terry's choice too easy. It's no big emotional loss to say adios to a girl who annoys him. And I think Max as a girlfriend would also make Terry's life too shallow, just in a different way. She wants to be part of the "fun." So Terry wouldn't have to make any big sacrifices or choices. My belief is that a real Batman will always end up alone. But the process of ending up alone should be a whole lot more challenging.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by The Old Maid


Hmm. I guess I'm not clarifying my point well. I don't want ANYONE spying on Batman. It's his LIFE! Terry's life is not a game or a toy to be played with. And as I mentioned, undercover lawmen are undercover for our protection, not just their own.


I agree entirely with the principle you express. My only point was that if handled well, something like this would greatly amplify the conflict in Terry's life, and would lead to more character development in all the principals.

[Blade]

Terry has made it clear that he doesn't want to end up like Bruce. (dead man's hand, scene in the cave) Terry is seventeen years old. It's not like he's going to stop living. Bruce had the opportunity to be young, and I'm sure some of the things he learned and experienced helped him be a better crime fighter. Terry should be allowed to be as normal as he can. However, when he becomes older, he will realize (like Bruce did) that he has to make sacrifices.

[James]

Originally posted by Blade
Terry has made it clear that he doesn't want to end up like Bruce. (dead man's hand, scene in the cave) Terry is seventeen years old. It's not like he's going to stop living. Bruce had the opportunity to be young, and I'm sure some of the things he learned and experienced helped him be a better crime fighter. Terry should be allowed to be as normal as he can. However, when he becomes older, he will realize (like Bruce did) that he has to make sacrifices.

Are you saying Terry should give up being Batman until he is more mature to handle the responsibility to himself as well as others? Or are you suggesting he tones down his act and gets on with his study...?

Brings forth an interesting point: Does Bruce advocate a life of being Batman? Does he feel it's the only - or best - path Terry can or should follow? Or is it Bruce's need to see the mantle of Batman preserved as a much needed figure of justice? Not out of ego but neccessity that the city needs a figure of the night?

Bruce has never been too appreciative of Terry's study - is he planing on making him his sole heir so he can continue the work? What would Dick say about this? How many questions can I fit in one post?

Find out next week! Same Bat-time, same.... blah bleh...

[batE]

Originally posted by The Old Maid


Hmm. I guess I'm not clarifying my point well. I don't want ANYONE spying on Batman. It's his LIFE! Terry's life is not a game or a toy to be played with. And as I mentioned, undercover lawmen are undercover for our protection, not just their own.


Terry's life isn't to be toyed with, no. But only a few people know that Terry = Batman. "Batman" is a shadowy figure -- almost a mythical figure to some. I bet there are some in Gotham who don't even think Batman is a human being. In Bloodsport, Stalker mentions how he feels that Batman is more a spirit that attaches itself to the generation's greatest warrior. I don't know that other people don't feel that way. Think about it: the suit makes him near invulnerable, he can fly and can seemingly (disappear) -- and "Batman" has been around for decades. All of this would point to something seemingly superhuman. So while I think that Terry has a right to privacy. But the people who wanted to find out about Batman's life weren't in it to make TERRY'S life miserable (with the exception of Ian Peak from Sneak Peak), because they didn't know that the guy behind the cowl was a 17-year-old kid with a mother and brother at home.




And I think Max as a girlfriend would also make Terry's life too shallow, just in a different way. She wants to be part of the "fun." So Terry wouldn't have to make any big sacrifices or choices.



I don't think it's entirely fair to assume that Max's personality woulnd't change under these circumstances. Just as pro-Dana people say that she'd be "different" toward Terry if "only she knew," I think Max would also be "different" toward Terry if she became his girlfriend. I won't presume to say that she'd NOT want to be a part of the action any more, but I think her point of view would change a little bit if she were, all of a sudden, the Bat's girl. I think she'd still want to help Terry, and I believe she'd have a bit more of a vested interest in his safety, but if Terry were to want to become more than friends with her, I can't believe they wouldn't talk about the new "ground rules." I think that, in and of itself, would require Terry making a sacrifice and a big choice -- that of not using Max as a resource anymore, fearing exposing her to danger. Yeah, he's always feared that, but if they were romantically involved, the fear factor, I'd think, would be ratcheted up a few notches. And I think she'd understand that if they were involved with each other.


That being said, I don't mean to intimate that her personality would do a total 180 if she were to become Terry's girlfriend, but I think she'd grow up more, probably a lot more, if that were to happen. For the relationship to work, she'd have to. And far from making his life more shallow, it could have added a quite another dimension to the man who is Terry McGinnis.


JMO,
batE



P.S.

Many thanks, all, for the posting assistance :)

[The Old Maid]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. If Terry had the nerve to discuss the ground rules, it should have been in Max's first episode. It is way, way too late for him to rein her in now.

I'd also disagree that Max would tone it down or pay more attention to safety (hers, his, or anyone else's) if she became Terry's girlfriend. Terry lets his women push him around. Original Dana ran his social life. Terminator Dana makes Terry cringe whether a problem is his fault or not. Melanie is a bit trashy, which gives her more power still. In "Once burned" her attitude is "hang up the phone and kiss me, I've had practice." That, and "Please follow me into this deathtrap." It would have been nice if Terry or Bats had asked, "So, how did a bunch of kids capture that huge Ace robot, anyway?" But he never did. Just took her word for it. Women lie right to his face and Terry simply cannot see it.

Max already has so much power over Terry. From the first she was portrayed as smarter, more curious and more intense. If she acquired the added power of The Girlfriend, would she back off? I honestly don't see that happening.

Max brings out the blah in Terry. "Be one of the guys, dude. Let's go to the arcade."

Max brings out the lying weasel in Terry. "Dana would rather be lied to than to know Wayne summoned you again. Besides, it's not as if we still have gossip in the future. So don't worry if we spend time in public together. It'll never get back to her."

Max brings out the wimp in Terry. "Please don't mess up my sting for Curare. There's a bomb involved. But if you do, please don't break the tool I gave you. I don't have another."

Max brings out the incompetent in Terry. I don't believe Wayne would have hired such a dummy.

I appreciate that others disagree with me. That's all right. But I know Terry used to be more than what he has become.

Bottom line : Max brings out the lworst in Terry. I don't like it.

[Maxie Zeus]

A little technical digression, before this becomes too vexed:


Originally posted by batE
I don't think it's entirely fair to assume that Max's personality woulnd't change under these circumstances. Just as pro-Dana people say that she'd be "different" toward Terry if "only she knew," I think Max would also be "different" toward Terry if she became his girlfriend.


Originally posted by Old Maid
I'd also disagree that Max would tone it down or pay more attention to safety (hers, his, or anyone else's) if she became Terry's girlfriend.

"If x were to happen, then y would happen."

In logic (and grammar, I suppose) these are called "counterfactual conditionals." They are conditional statements that describe the consequences of events or states of affairs that did not in fact happen.

I could simply ask you to take it on faith that no one who has studied these kinds of sentences closely is really sure what makes them true, and under what circumstances. But I think I can give you the gist of the problem everyone confronts in trying to make sense of such sentences. Consider the following two counterfactuals:

"If Julius Caesar had been supreme commander during the Gulf War, he would have used nuclear weapons."

"If Julius Caesar had been supreme commander during the Gulf War, he would have used catapults."

Which, if either, of these sentences is true?

The answer is: It depends upon the background assumptions. The first one is likely true only if we imagined Caesar somehow reincarnated, drilled at West Point, taking a tour of duty in Vietnam, and then graduating to a high American command in time for the invasion of Kuwait. The second one is likely true only if we imagine Caesar thrust through a time rift and deposited on a 1991 battlefield with command suddenly put upon him.

Would Max change if she became Terry's girlfriend? That depends upon a whole host of assumptions that have to be made clear. Old Maid's answer, I think, tacitly assumes that Max's character is pretty well set, and that any change in her relation to Terry would not cause any fundamental shifts in her character; she and Terry are so set in their ways that the new relationship would just augment patterns that are already there. batE's answer tacitly assumes that Max may have hidden depths, and might undergo sudden and unexpected changes, depending upon how her relationships with others pan out or change, and that a skilled writer could make those changes apparent and plausible without seeming ad hoc and inconsistent.

So it turns into a question about how dynamic of a character you regard Max as being. I'm not sure there is sufficient evidence to answer that question, except by shifting away from the character herself and looking instead to the BB writing staff, and asking if they could or would be inclined to pull off such a shift. And that changes the subject in a much less interesting direction, IMO.

[batE]

Originally posted by The Old Maid
I'm afraid I have to disagree. If Terry had the nerve to discuss the ground rules, it should have been in Max's first episode. It is way, way too late for him to rein her in now.

I'd also disagree that Max would tone it down or pay more attention to safety (hers, his, or anyone else's) if she became Terry's girlfriend.


I believe that she'd have to change her Bat attitude in order for Terry to seriously consider dating her. If she didn't, I don't think Terry would go for it, period. I can't imagine that he'd let her put herself out like that if they were dating. he doesn't even want her to it now, as it is. But I think he'd be more of a "look, if this is what you want, we're going to have to do it this way." I really don't see Terry as much as a wimp at all, really, in any way.

But my original point was that it's not fair to assume Max wouldn't change if she becae his girlfriend just as it's not fair to assume Dana would become all sweetness and light if she knew his secret.



Max brings out the blah in Terry. "Be one of the guys, dude. Let's go to the arcade."


So because Max like arcade games, she's a nefarious character? Because she likes Terry to have fun, she's a menace? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your point here.
I honestly think that the Cheezy Dan scenes with those two were mainly used at plot devices. Matt and Terry went there in Bloodsport, and Stalker kidnapped Matt from there. Terry, Max and Corey went there in "Sentries," and Corey gets sucked into the world of the Sentries. terry and Zander go there in "C. of the Kobra," and that's where Zander meets Max.

I think Max engineering part of Terry's downtime was written in so that we see how Terry tries to maintain some semblance of a normal, teenage life.



Max brings out the lying weasel in Terry. "Dana would rather be lied to than to know Wayne summoned you again. Besides, it's not as if we still have gossip in the future. So don't worry if we spend time in public together. It'll never get back to her."


I see your point here, but I'm prompted to let Terry share some of the blame here. He and Max lie about why he really leaves because Dana has been upfront about not liking how much time Terry spends helping Bruce. In Black Out, the third ep, for goodness sakes, when he leaves the game after trotting out his old "Mr. Wayne needs me" spiel, Dana says "It's not normal." She has said "Call me when you can spend more time with me than you do with Mr. Wayne." Now, knowing how Dana feels about his job, I would think Terry would want to do the right thing and end things -- assuming that he doesn't want to/like lying to her and assuming that he knows that he'll have to keep lying in order to keep the relationship. I see the problem as Terry in part being selfish: He wants Batman and Dana, too, and those things are almost mutually exclusive. But he tries, and perhaps he figures that a little lie for a good cause (saving his relationship), won't hurt anyone.

Max aids and abets his alibis and excuses. While there is some evidence that she grows weary of it at times "Once Burned," she does it. She set the precedent in "Hidden Agenda" -- I'll admit that. She probably never should have started helping Terry come up with excuses. But she's his friend. And she's trying to help him keep it together, even though she probably knows that it's not right. I'll say this: I think that she should have been straight with Terry and told him that he needed to figure out what he wanted to do with Dana. She hinted at this in "Once Burned" when she said that he needed to choose between the unknown chick and his relationship because "It ain't fair to Dana." I don't think Max helps Terry lie because she's trying to pull one over on Dana or because she gets off on it. Perhaps she just knows that saving a roomful of people from one of Mad Stan's bombs ranks a little higher than having a picnic with Dana. Max, like Terry, believes in what Batman stands for. She seems to understand that what Terry does has to take precendence over everything: school (she helps him cram for tests), home (she babysits Matt on occasion), and Dana.

All that being said, I don't like that she lies for Terry, but when you say she brings out the "lying weasel" in him, it sounds as if this is something she/they enjoy, and there's never been any evidence that this was the case. I think they both (and rightly so) feel guilty about being untruthful to Dana, but we all have to keep in mind that telling the truth is not an option here - so what else is he supposed to do?



Max brings out the wimp in Terry. "Please don't mess up my sting for Curare. There's a bomb involved. But if you do, please don't break the tool I gave you. I don't have another."


I can't really answer this one, because I only saw half of Final Cut. I don't know what the circumstances of Max messing up the sting was, so I'll take your word for it that she screwed up. As for the tool, I could be wrong (I saw this awhile ago), I seem to remember very large, heavy pieces of weaponry falling. Didn't Max stumble while trying to dodge the falling debris and the tool shattered on the floor? I can't remember. If this is so, I would say that her wanting to try to dodge a two-ton weapon and in her haste dropping and breaking the tool isn't grounds for making her a village idiot. And didn't Terry bring her along to the museum? I'll bow and say she was not exactly invited to the hotel, but once Terry knew where the bomb was, in all likelihood, hidden, he didn't have to take her along with him.



Max brings out the incompetent in Terry. I don't believe Wayne would have hired such a dummy.


Hmmm. I have seen complaints that max made Terry look mighty dumb in Final Cut. But other than that, I can't really see where else she herself made him look stupid. She's a computer whiz. That's what she does. She's highly intelligent, but does that mean Terry isn't? In "Hidden Agenda," in fact, she points out that her high test scores are only numbers and she says to Terry that he is probably just as smart as she is (to which Dana, oddly enough, seemed skeptical). Terry has shown that he can puzzle out things without her help. He did it in ROTJ, for one. And it seems to me that when Terry tries to beat himself up over a thing that's gone wrong, she and/or Bruce remind him constantly that blaming himself does no good and/or that he can do it.

Terry's no fool: He's street smart (as evidenced in Ace in the Hole and Shriek) and he's pretty computer savvy himself. He was the one who accessed the files in C. of the Kobra, and he was able to get into the psychologist's computer in Payback. I can't see how anybody could make someone trusted to be Batman look dumb. I don't care if it's a supergenius. I just can't see it. Naive? Maybe. Unprepared? Sure. Inexperienced? Yes. Dumb? Sorry. Doesn't scan.

To me, Terry looks more . . . inexperienced when juxtaposed with Bruce, not Max. Often, Bruce has railed at him "You should have expected this; You should have anticpated that." That's not to say Bruce tries to break Terry's will, but in Payback, Terry mentions (and I think he was speaking from the heart here) that it seems that Bruce feels he's the only one who can do the job right. Bruce was the original Batman, so his coming down hard on Terry seems normal to me, but Terry's naivete seems to come through more when it's Terry/Bruce not Terry/Max.



Bottom line : Max brings out the lworst in Terry. I don't like it.

I'm curious to know who you think brings out the best in Terry. Bruce? Terry's mom? Dana? I'll own that it probably wasn't Max. But to say that she brought out the worst in him seems incredibly harsh. I recall occasions in which she helped him to flesh out situations (Mind Games, April Moon), served as the voice of reason when he was confused (Babel, C. of the Kobra #1), and has just been there when he had no place else to go (Eyewitness). Maybe she wasn't the perfect character, but for my money, she complemented Terry. And for me, BB wouldn't have been the same, or as good, without her.

batE

[James]

Max brings out the incompetent in Terry. I don't believe Wayne would have hired such a dummy.

I think to a certain degree, this is a fair point - and perhaps why Bruce resents Max's imput.

Terry, alone - despite he's gifted skills - is inexperienced. Batman is a stark balance between ablility and apllication of that ability. As such, Terry has a lot to learn in a very dangerous game.

To take a teenager like Terry on as the role of Batman could either be very poor or extremely insightful judgement. Time will tell. There are many issues there (and most have been discussed in the McGinnis/Wayne thread) to be sort through but essentially, it is a difficult and dangerous role to give to a teenager. Simply put, Bruce is skating on thin ice.

I think Terry's inculsion of Max is one of those typical teenage elements that Bruce would like to have avoided. Not only does it affect Terry's training and attitude, but it also brings an even heavier burden of responisibilty onto Wayne. By having another person involved - arguably another unstable character (eg; a teenager whose characater has not yet fully matured) Terry's job will become more hazardous. Another person to consider close to the battlefield is another slice of concentration lost.

I think Bruce is right to resent Max's input for she will, inadvertantly cause more problems than she will solve at Terry's side. Her help should (in theory) be no more insightful that Bruce's. Terry to some extent is Bruce's responsibilty. Being young, I don't think Terry ever really sees the problems that Max brings to Bruce and why Bruce should be so uncomfortable with her being so close to the secret. Again, a danger of training someone so young as Terry is that they rarely have the maturity to be able to see a situation from any other view than their own.

[batE]

Originally posted by SJJ



I think Terry's inculsion of Max is one of those typical teenage elements that Bruce would like to have avoided. Not only does it affect Terry's training and attitude, but it also brings an even heavier burden of responisibilty onto Wayne. By having another person involved - arguably another unstable character (eg; a teenager whose characater has not yet fully matured) Terry's job will become more hazardous. Another person to consider close to the battlefield is another slice of concentration lost.



Now *this*, I buy. Bruce has been quite clear about what place he wants Max to play in the action; namely, none. In Hooked Up, when Terry mentions that Max wants to get more involved, Bruce's response is succint and to the point: "Over my dead body." In Where's Terry? Bruce mentions that he wants her to take off, that he didn't know whether Terry was alive or dead, and that was enough for his conscience. That was it. Didn't matter how good she was or how good he thought she was -- he wasn't going to let her take the risk.

When Max and Terry are chatting it up over the comlink, as much as I enjoy those cosy scenes, I do cringe a little. When Terry's in the Batmobile, he's *working* -- it's not a time for idle chitchat or even cram sessions before tests. When Bruce ordered her off the line in C. if the Kobra, a part of me cheered. It was hard to admit, my being a Max fan and all, but I can see how she can be a distraction, as outlined above by SJJ and as mentioned also by OM.

I'll also agree that if Wayne had had his druthers, Max would never have found out (though I wonder why Terry didn't at least attempt to deny his secret life when Max confronted him. She probably would have broken him down anyway, but he didn't even try to snow her). But Bruce and Terry both know that they could have done worse.

If Dana had found out, Terry would have been inundated (I think) with pleas of "Terry, don't do this." Ditto if Terry's mom had found out. Half of Gotham would know if Matt had stumbled on the sceret. And the rest of the HHH regulars (Chelsea, Blade, Nelson, Jared, Howard, Corey, etc.) are just oo flaky to be trusted. Max at least seems to understand that Terry's got to do this, and at least she can help. In Final Cut, for example, as much as she screwed up, she was a help to him when Bruce was unreachable.

Also, I think in a small way, Bruce understands that Terry needs an outlet -- someone to talk to about his other life. Bruce had that in Alfred and later in Dick, Barbara and Tim, to name a few. Bruce had been reluctant to let Terry in on his past as Batman -- and to that point, who else was Terry going to talk about it to if not Bruce? That's why the end of Final Cut -- the first BB ep I even remotely paid attention to -- stood out for me. Max is his sounding board -- his confidante. And I think Bruce understands the importance of that, even if he doesn't like it.


batE

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by batE
Also, I think in a small way, Bruce understands that Terry needs an outlet -- someone to talk to about his other life. Bruce had that in Alfred and later in Dick, Barbara and Tim, to name a few. Bruce had been reluctant to let Terry in on his past as Batman -- and to that point, who else was Terry going to talk about it to if not Bruce? That's why the end of Final Cut -- the first BB ep I even remotely paid attention to -- stood out for me. Max is his sounding board -- his confidante. And I think Bruce understands the importance of that, even if he doesn't like it.

This is the reason for the character, and it's an insightful move on the writers' part. Though wouldn't it have been more interesting if Terry had (perhaps unconsciously) sought out a sounding board instead of having one thrust upon him?

Anyway, many of the problems we have with Max I think can be traced to the fact that she acts out of character for an Alfred type. Alfred was seldom seen and rarely heard from, but his presence was a comfort, both to Bruce and to the viewers/readers. Max inserts herself too much. That's in keeping with the character she's been given, but seems to unbalance Terry's character in ways that Alfred never unbalanced Bruce.

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


This is the reason for the character, and it's an insightful move on the writers' part. Though wouldn't it have been more interesting if Terry had (perhaps unconsciously) sought out a sounding board instead of having one thrust upon him?

Anyway, many of the problems we have with Max I think can be traced to the fact that she acts out of character for an Alfred type. Alfred was seldom seen and rarely heard from, but his presence was a comfort, both to Bruce and to the viewers/readers. Max inserts herself too much. That's in keeping with the character she's been given, but seems to unbalance Terry's character in ways that Alfred never unbalanced Bruce.

Simply being a teenager, Max hasn't learnt the restraint that Alfred always bore - no matter how he felt about a situation. Max needs to learn to be a voice of wisdom, and to keep a distance - otherwise she just becomes a secondary distraction.
Likewise, Terry needs to keep a respectful distance from Max. He has much to learn and, IMO, it is too early for him to bring a second player into the game - not until he is far more experienced (look at Bruce, we can assume he didn't take Dick on until later in his career and even then there were mess ups - in all versions of the title!).... He should let Bruce do the work and maybe bring Max in as a helper, such as the big A, when Bruce has retired/snuffed it....

[James]

BTW, I like the Max avatar BatE - that's great, nice capture..! :D

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ
BTW, I like the Max avatar BatE - that's great, nice capture..! :D

Yeah! I was going to mention this too. Great pick.

[James]

One thing I will say for this thread, while it has not made me feel any more welcome to Max, it has made me a little more weary of the dynamic her role she plays within the story and how it affects the other characters.... and the positive/negative effects she brings.

So no, I still dislike the creative handling of the character, and I'm not too much a fan of Max herself, but at least I will get enjoyment from watching the 'Max' episodes in regards to points brought up here..

That will make some of the Max episodes a little more bearable to watch... :D

[Maxie Zeus]

A lot our reactions are due to watching each ep on its own, as it comes out. A few eps (like "Lost Soul" have an obvious place in a developmental arc, and are instantly considered in that light, but many aren't looked at in any larger context.

Looking at Max not as a mistake who mars certain episodes, but as a part of the Batman universe who may reflect on certain weaknesses in the characters is a more satisfying way to look at her and her place, though. That's something I'm grateful for, from this thread (and for similar things said in the McGinnis vs. Wayne thread.)

[batE]

Originally posted by SJJ

One thing I will say for this thread, while it has not made me feel any more welcome to Max, it has made me a little more weary of the dynamic her role she plays within the story and how it affects the other characters.... and the positive/negative effects she brings. So no, I still dislike the creative handling of the character, and I'm not too much a fan of Max herself, but at least I will get enjoyment from watching the 'Max' episodes in regards to points brought up here.


I can live with this. I understand that there are always going to be the characters that seem rather useless (i.e. Cyclops in X-Men. Well, IMO, anyway). But it's good to have it acknowledged that she brought positive (as well as negative at time, unfortunately) effects to the table. In this, I feel much better than I did when I started this thread :)


Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
A lot our reactions are due to watching each ep on its own, as it comes out. A few eps (like "Lost Soul" have an obvious place in a developmental arc, and are instantly considered in that light, but many aren't looked at in any larger context.

Right. I could see how a person could watch such individual eps as Where's Terry, Final Cut, Hooked Up, etc., and see Max as a meddling witch and not as a contributing part of the team. However, it seems to be the die-hard Bat fans who dislike her most. I own that I watched only a handful of BTAS eps, no TNBA eps and no Superman/Batman. I saw only two of the movies (2 and 3) and I never read the comic. Perhaps if I were a more "well-rounded" Bat fan I wouldn't be so much of a Max fan. Hmmmm.


Looking at Max not as a mistake who mars certain episodes, but as a part of the Batman universe who may reflect on certain weaknesses in the characters is a more satisfying way to look at her and her place, though. That's something I'm grateful for, from this thread (and for similar things said in the McGinnis vs. Wayne thread.)


Well said. I like to think that the writers are fans themselves and would know, more or less, what fans want and would not introduce irreparably flawed or unceasingly annoying characters on purpose. Perhaps they were a tad off the mark with Max -- I can go along with that -- but I'm glad to have her along, just the same.

batE


P.S.

Thanks SJJ and Maxie for the compliments on my avatar. Bird Boy is the brains behind it. This board is filled with wonderful people!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by batE Perhaps if I were a more "well-rounded" Bat fan I wouldn't be so much of a Max fan. Hmmmm.

Heh. Don't run yourself down. ;)

Seriously, one of the things I really love about the various Timm-produced shows is that they stand on their own. You don't have to follow or know the comics (or even the other animated series) in order to like and appreciate them--they're complex enough without depending upon the background story from the other series or the comics.

I don't know the comics at all, except in the historical gleanings I've gotten from the DC Archives and a few recent graphic novels. One reason I bailed on alt.comics.batman was because it was mostly comics-talk and pretty confusing at that. Nightwing showing up on TNBA came as a complete surprise to me, but I didn't need the comics to understand and appreciate the complexities and depths that his story brought to the series.

That, BTW, is one reason I for one would NOT like to see animated adaptations of story arcs from the comics, like No Man's Land. I suspect there would be too great a temptation to treat it as part of some transcendent animated/comic continuity. I dislike comics where you have to know what happened on page 21 of issue #583 before you can make sense of some vital plot point in issue #739. It's not fun anymore when you have to have the equivalent of a master's degree in Batman arcana.

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Seriously, one of the things I really love about the various Timm-produced shows is that they stand on their own. You don't have to follow or know the comics (or even the other animated series) in order to like and appreciate them--they're complex enough without depending upon the background story from the other series or the comics.


I'm pretty much the same. I've had on and off occasional issues of the Batman comics and read quite a few of the novels and amassed a reasonable amount of background reading. To me, it's enough to feel confident to speak about the comics in relation to the cartoons but I am not a fluid as most here (hence I stay away from comments regarding comic character/continuity - I wouldn't have a chance.

In fact, Batman Beyond is the series I have most experience with. Over in the UK, the schedules messed around with Adventures of Superman/Batman and I never saw any (to my knowledge) of TNBA. I'm not sure when they were screened. The Superman series got a way too early morning Saturday slot so I lost out on many of those too! So BB is the most comprehensive series I've seen (aside from BTAS, but even then, the terrestial schedule was jumpy).

I hope that the Cartoon Network will start doing a majot reshow and will treat JL with the same respect as they did for BB!!

[The Old Maid]

Originally posted by batE


I'm curious to know who you think brings out the best in Terry.

Curare, actually. She made him earn it. Second place is Bruce, in spite of their shouting matches. Terry's engine always idled on shouting.




It's not fair to assume Max wouldn't change if she became his girlfriend just as it's not fair to assume Dana would become all sweetness and light if she knew his secret.

I doubt Dana will ever be sweetness and light ... I think she would realize why he does what he does. But then she would decide this is not how she wants to spend her life. He really should leave or get dumped. Absolutely, I agree he's being selfish. A nice, piercing breakup would remind him that being Batman is not about getting one's way.



So because Max like arcade games, she's a nefarious character? Because she likes Terry to have fun, she's a menace? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your point here. I think Max engineering part of Terry's downtime was written in so that we see how Terry tries to maintain some semblance of a normal, teenage life.

My concern was that Terry never HAD a normal teenage life, at least not like the one he acquired in Season Two. He dated Dana. That was the extent of his social life. He was still extremely angry at the world, as if he got tossed in Juvie for no reason. I miss the Terry who became Batman to fix something that was broken in his life. Something that no ordinary one-of-the-guys life can fill. It says something about the situation in his head that he would look to a dangerous man like Bruce Wayne for healing! This mellow guy is inconsistent with what we've seen earlier, that's all.

The suits were determined to fit high school stories in the series. So it's possible that if it hadn't been Max it might have been someone else.

Ironically when the "Zeta" episode aired, I thought it was the perfect pilot for Max and Zeta to begin their own show. That series was always meant to be accessible ; Batman has traditionally been the inscrutable Dark Knight. Max and Zeta brought out the best in each other. It would also make more sense for Zeta to have such a sidekick. She could outsmart the Federal Agents, and when the robot broke she could fix him. (It's also the first time I ever heard Max squeak, "But that's WRONG!") Unfortunately that series was also dumbed down. This new Zeta seems kind of naive for an infiltration unit. So, while I dislike the character, I was never opposed to giving her a show of her own. Just not this one.

As for the rest? *shrugs* We agree to disagree. Life goes on.

BTW I agree about the avatar. Great pick!

[James]

Originally posted by The Old Maid



My concern was that Terry never HAD a normal teenage life, at least not like the one he acquired in Season Two. He dated Dana. That was the extent of his social life. He was still extremely angry at the world, as if he got tossed in Juvie for no reason. This mellow guy is inconsistent with what we've seen earlier, that's all.


That is true, they certainly tried to give Terry a 'normal' teenage life through series 2 (which irritatingly, became the source of 80% of Gotham's mad men - just what do they teach the kids at that school?!).

Then I suppose you are to assume that the fire that Terry once had is now channeled into Batman. He has a release for the agitation and teenage angst. The Bat has brought him clarity and maturity. In fact, you could argue this is reflected in his relationship with Dana in series 2/ROTJ.

While still rocky through his odd periods of non commitance (eg; Batman), he has learnt to control himself in ways which must make him paletteable to be with. Dana's relationship with him, while less interesting, maybe stronger in series 2 as Terry begins to seperate his two identities. I suppose in someways, Max also helps Terry keep on a level and strengthen his bond to his girlfriend. The problem Max creates is by bridging the two worlds. Terry should try and keep both his worlds seperate - as Bruce did as flyboy millionaire and dark knight. Max currently intrudes on that line. She should be the confidence on his 'normal' side not the Bat side - that is Bruce's domain. Likewise, Bruce is pretty poor on appreciating the dilemma's of a normal life - again a privilage that should be given to Max and to some extent, Dana.