SHould Heroes kill?

[SilentBob173]

I was thinking about this earlier today. Should heroes kill or not? I'm not talking about anti-heroes like Venom or Hitman. Mainstream walkers like the JLA.

Also, I don't mean kill haplessly or kill every purse snatcher. But invision this: Lex Luthor kills Lois Lane on live television in the most gruesome horrible way, when Supes flies in there, should he snap Luthor's neck like a brittle twig?

If something big enough happens, should heroes take the lives of the evil?
Cheers.
Jason S

[DR. BELCH]

Only if it's unavoidable or a matter of honor. In the final Superman episode, I actually wanted to see him crush the life out of Darkseid...and in the comics a paramedic basically tells The Man of Steel he should have killed Brainiac because once the s.o.b.'s patched up and supposedly rehabilitated he'll just be back out on the street tearing lives apart again.
I'm a comic book writer, and I've had my hero kill. He vowed never again to let himself get that angry...which is basically what drives him: keeping his massive fury and power in check. That's what humanizes a hero: suffering and painful restraint.

[JLU Dude]

I believe it all depends on who the villain(s) and what is going on. Batman VS. Catwoman is not such a case, but a fight with the Joker, who know how far Batman might go stop him if the case meaning he may have to kill Joker.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

They do all the time. That what "accidents" are for, and "Oops, I didn't mean to kill him..." excuses.

[Bird Boy]

In Return of the Joker, Batman was so pissed that he said "I'll break you in two" to the Joker. But instead..ah..you know what happened.

Heroes shouldn't kill unless absolutely neccesary.

-BB

[I.R Joey]

Only if it is unavoidable and for the good of a larger collective group. For example if someone is about to destroy a planet filled with people, the hero may be forced to resort to lethal tactics.

[optimal321]

I really don't like the idea of heros killing. And, honestly, i don't know if they should. Maybe only in an extreme situation where there is absolutely no alternative it might be okay. But they should have such remorse about it and go through an outright hell. But on the whole, they shouldn't kill. And it doesn't mean they should be overly sappy about it. They should want to kill the bad guys, but know that there is always another way. And if there's not...? I still don't like it though.

[Domino]

No.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by SilentBob173
I was thinking about this earlier today. Should heroes kill or not? I'm not talking about anti-heroes like Venom or Hitman. Mainstream walkers like the JLA.

Also, I don't mean kill haplessly or kill every purse snatcher. But invision this: Lex Luthor kills Lois Lane on live television in the most gruesome horrible way, when Supes flies in there, should he snap Luthor's neck like a brittle twig?

If something big enough happens, should heroes take the lives of the evil?
Cheers.
Jason S

That's like asking if a mad man goes ballistic at your local mall and goes off on a sniper rampage and kills thirty people and wounds women and children, should he be shot on site when the police arrive. And the answer is, of course, yes. But then again, I believe public hangings should be enforced, and there should be an automatic death penalty for drunk drivers. Especially drunk drivers.

And before you all cry human rights and the basic politically correct mumbo jumbo, there are countries, even in Europe, that have the death penalty for drunk driving, and there is NO problem with drunk driving there. The point is to not have the law to kill as many people as you can, but to make the punishment so severe that people will not, even drunk, get in a car and drive. And if they do, the law is the law, and they must die. They were out to murder somebody anyway.

And we could adopt the same laws third world nations do about shoplifting. Ask the shoplifter, "With what hand did you steal that item" and CHOP, the hand is cut off. Shoplifting would certainly decrease in our nation, and you wouldn't be tied up with court costs while they get a lawyer and get all mambsy pambsy about how they have rights too. I say, you break the law, your rights are suspended. Period. And if shoplifting decreased, so would the prices at the store. I guarantee it. I worked in several stores and know the mark ups because of shoplifting.

[batboy2001]

In Wisconsin if you kill someone by meens of drinking and driving you get life in prison. I think that perhaps chopping off someones hand is a bit harsh (I think they do that in India) there are ALOT more bad crimes that should be delt with. Still shopplifting is not right and maybe a stiffer punishment would be better.

[Calhoun07]

I tell ya, I caught a shoplifter at the video store back in January and it's still being dragged out in court. The final bill for the tax payers will be more than the price of the merchandise stolen. It just makes me so mad. And we literally do pay more at the cash register because of it, and that's a crime against all of us. Ok, maybe cutting off a hand would be harsh, but I say they need to have one hearing, one hearing only, and a failure to appear in court (my guy didn't even show up for his first hearing) is an automatic plea for guilty. And the fine should be $100, flat. Unless the merchandise exceeds that dollar amount, then it should be based on a percentage of the dollar amount over $100. No lawyers (my guy was caught red handed by the police), no plea bargaining, no continuances, none of that dancing around crap they try to do. One trial, one fine, period. The way it is now is just too much of a burden on the tax payers.

[Trent Lane]

Originally posted by calhoun07


That's like asking if a mad man goes ballistic at your local mall and goes off on a sniper rampage and kills thirty people and wounds women and children, should he be shot on site when the police arrive. And the answer is, of course, yes. But then again, I believe public hangings should be enforced, and there should be an automatic death penalty for drunk drivers. Especially drunk drivers.

And before you all cry human rights and the basic politically correct mumbo jumbo, there are countries, even in Europe, that have the death penalty for drunk driving, and there is NO problem with drunk driving there. The point is to not have the law to kill as many people as you can, but to make the punishment so severe that people will not, even drunk, get in a car and drive. And if they do, the law is the law, and they must die. They were out to murder somebody anyway.

And we could adopt the same laws third world nations do about shoplifting. Ask the shoplifter, "With what hand did you steal that item" and CHOP, the hand is cut off. Shoplifting would certainly decrease in our nation, and you wouldn't be tied up with court costs while they get a lawyer and get all mambsy pambsy about how they have rights too. I say, you break the law, your rights are suspended. Period. And if shoplifting decreased, so would the prices at the store. I guarantee it. I worked in several stores and know the mark ups because of shoplifting.

Right on, calhoun07! Couldn't have said it better myself. We got robbed the other night at the store I work at. I tried to track the guy down, but he had a car waiting. Of course, he'll get away with it, at least for now. It just pisses me off when that kind of stuff happens. Sorry for going off-topic there... as for superheroes killing, I say no, not unless it is absolutely nessecary...

[Frozen]

Calhoun07 wrote:

And we could adopt the same laws third world nations do about shoplifting. Ask the shoplifter, "With what hand did you steal that item" and CHOP, the hand is cut
off. Shoplifting would certainly decrease in our nation, and you wouldn't be tied up with court costs while they get a lawyer and get all mambsy pambsy about how
they have rights too. I say, you break the law, your rights are suspended. Period. And if shoplifting decreased, so would the prices at the store. I guarantee it. I
worked in several stores and know the mark ups because of shoplifting.

Bravo, Calhoun07. I too have worked in a number of shops (we call 'stores' shops here in dreary old England...), and shoplifters are (on the whole...) little more than scum of the earth stealing goods to buy drugs. I once chased one all the way back to his house, where upon he grabbed my and dragged me in, attacking me with a bread knife. Suffice to say I have little time for criminals...

Getting back to the subject, I'd like to play Devil's Advocate with an interesting slant on 'should heroes kill'. Robert McCall, AKA the Equalizer (I know he isn't from a comic, but I can class him as a Hero, can't I?), I seem to remember, spent a lot of times desperatly trying to stop innocents from killing in revenge for what ever wrong doing, knowing all the time that the death of the miscreant was perhaps inevitable - but he constantly shielded these 'clients' from the horror of killing by largely doing it himself (as a last resort, of course), even though he was utterly repeled by taking (yet) another life. Doesn't that, in a warped kind of way, make him a hero BECAUSE he killed? Isn't it sometimes more heroic to face the horror, and guilt, of killing if you know it is absolutely necessary? The act of killing seems to be treated in such a blaise way these days - we seem to be ignorant of the fact that it sometimes takes incredible courage to kill - more so than it does not to...

And, please, I do NOT advocate the taking of another life in any way - unless they're a dirty piece of shoplifting trash...

[Bud 'n Lou]

I definately disagree. Drunk driving and stealing are horrible crimes, but punishing offenders with death and dismemberment is far too extreme. I do agree that there should be stricter consequences, though. Maybe something like an automatic prison sentence of a certain number of years without parole, or something.
Harsher punishment may not even do much to lower levels of crime anyway. It might make some people think twice about it, but crime will still exist.
To quote an episode of the Twilight Zone...
"In order to preserve civilization...we must first remain civil."

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou
I definately disagree. Drunk driving and stealing are horrible crimes, but punishing offenders with death and dismemberment is far too extreme. I do agree that there should be stricter consequences, though. Maybe something like an automatic prison sentence of a certain number of years without parole, or something.
Harsher punishment may not even do much to lower levels of crime anyway. It might make some people think twice about it, but crime will still exist.
To quote an episode of the Twilight Zone...
"In order to preserve civilization...we must first remain civil."

The point of having an extreme punishment for the crime is to discourage the crime. Prisons are not the answer anymore. People who live in the worst areas of the country will actually commit crimes to go back in prison because it's actually better for them there than on the streets. Not all, but it's still a problem. Not to mention that the average cost for the tax payers is $50,000 a year per prisoner. Dismemberment may be extreme, but I think the fair balance would be one trial, one fine. If they are guilty, they are guilty, and if they want to plead their innocence, it must be done in that one trial. No continuances, no dragging out one shoplifting case for a year. It's too much of a burden on society.

Getting back to the topic, I was thinking that superheroes should not kill, but if there was a situation that they felt should be dealt with in that manner, they need to pass it along to the proper authorities.

[Calhoun07]

As for drunk drivers, ask people who have lost a loved one or have suffered serious injury at the hands of a drunk driver what they think. And, again, imposing a death penalty would hopefully rarely be enforced, if ever. The point is to scare people into not driving drunk.

[optimal321]

Yeah, there are a lot of problems w/ our system. But i always liked the idea of a man dressed in a bat costume who uses fear to scare people out of commiting crimes. We do need something to keep people in line though.

[xbuilder]

Fist I have to tell yopu all. I live in Texas. Unlike most Texans I don't own a gun but I do think that some crimes can only be met with death. (Ie anything involoving the molestation or death of children, the elderly and or mass killing/terroism).

Yes I also think thevies who keep theiving should lose a hand.
and executions should be telivised.

As a writer of comics and roleplaying games I hadd to decied in my worlds should heroes kill. The answer is yes they should kill but only as a last resort. Superman dose not have to kill because his life is rarely in jeopardy and her can usually save the life of a lot of people. Batman dose not as a moral belief.

Heroes who decide to kill should only kill to proterct lives that are in danger. They should follow the same standards of Policemen and law enforcement when using deadly force. A Blame the argument about comic book killing not on heroes who refuse to kill but on comic book world judicial systems. People like the Joker are not dealt with as they should be. Batman is doing all he can as a moral person, the system is failing Gotham or Metropolis or whatever.

In my Universe the Prisons for super types are privately owned, kept in international waters and if you escape and live you deserve your freedom. Which brings me back to my beliefs. Prison should be a bad as should any punishment for a major crime. Juvinle offenders should not be tried as adults but should be publicly gained as should some adult offenders. You commit sexual crimes..castration, you steal, lose a hand, you kill a lot of peopl., you die.

Now those punishments should not be for first offenders but for repeat ones or in very rare cases. Those punishments should be public so people can see what crime leads to.... Pain

Humans hate pain, we avoid Pain Pain=Bad.

so if Crime =Pain, and Pain=Bad then crime is bad and we will avoid it.

[Tim Drake]

I just read Kingdom Come. Heroes in my opinion shouldn't kill. That was what that story was all about. Spoiler..........




Even when Joker killed Lois Lane, Superman didn't try to kill him.

[Trent Lane]

Yeah, Kingdom Come shows the consequences of what happens when heroes kill, in that it could affect more people than you could ever imagine in a negative way...

[DR. BELCH]

--I like what they do in Singapore. When they cut up over there, they get caned a new buttcrack. We should bring that to America. More corporal punishment in schools, and I also advocate hanging criminals by their ankles in the town square with their pants yanked down. I figure pain and embarrassment are better deterrents to crime that a thousand policeman and a hundred prisons.

[Kylewayne]

this is a very interesting topic. But fisrt let me start with Dr. Belche's topic about:


More corporal punishment in schools,

Well, in the 60's when my dad used to go to school corporal punishment did exist and beleive me it worked ...according to my dad. But my fear is that some teachers used to over do it with the corporal punishment. They hit you until you until you turned black and blue!

In my elementery school in the 80's. I used to have a male teacher in grade 6 who used corporal punishment but only if you badly behaved or direspected the teacher. For example, one boy student was caught cheating during one of his exams. Well, my teacher called upon him to come infront of the class and tell everybody what he has done (same time utterally humiliating him) The boy admitted he was cheating but said it in a laughing tone as if he didn't care.... mocking the teacher at his face the same time. My teacher got mad and slapped the student across the face leaving finger marks on the students face. The weird thing is ,...I say... that the kid deserved what was coming to him. He had no respect at all. Well, after that incident no one dared to cheat infront of this teacher and we all behaved like angel. He conducted his class as if we were in the army, We were like his little soldiers. And the girls had to respect the dress code uniform that we had to wear. If we were caught with make-up and such ....he would send us to the principle and call are parents.
Most of the time I think parents are to blame for their childrens actions. The parent tries so hard to be his child best friend. Well, let me tell you something people, a child doesn't need a parent to be his best friend. The child needs a parent, a person of authority, and the parent must lay out the rules firmly that the parent IS the authority and not the other way around. Now a days you see on TV that children abuse and beat up their parents. And the parents of those kids are wondering how they became that way...well HELLO it's their fault for letting the kid do whatever he wants and get his way. The parent must always show the kid that the parent is in control. Sure parents want to give their kids freedom but do not overdo it. Parents these days overdo it by giving there kids too much freedom and not being into their lives more. i say be a parent first because that is what a parent should be first of all.... and then a friend, but not to overdo it.

As for punishment in general it should be stricter and let the punishment fit the crime that is what I say. As for corporal punishment in schools I would have to say NO to that cuz we live in the new millenium and NOT the 60's. Corporal punishment SHOULD be the parents JOB not the TEACHERS. I think this is the most I've talked on these boards...I will shut up now :D

[xbuilder]

In texas we still do the "spanking", thing in schools occasionally up from K-12.

In texas Kids don't shoot kids, Kids don't shoot parents or teachers. Why. Because Texas realizes that todays Parents is an absentee parent and teachers , though its not their job is the main disiplinarian in a childs life.

Lets face it people the biggest problem in siciety is Parents who either don't care or are too busy.

again I say


Pain= Bad
Crime = Pain
Crime =Bad

Humans do not like pain.

No Crime if Pain is given. Its simple, It works.

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by calhoun07


That's like asking if a mad man goes ballistic at your local mall and goes off on a sniper rampage and kills thirty people and wounds women and children, should he be shot on site when the police arrive. And the answer is, of course, yes. But then again, I believe public hangings should be enforced, and there should be an automatic death penalty for drunk drivers. Especially drunk drivers.

And before you all cry human rights and the basic politically correct mumbo jumbo, there are countries, even in Europe, that have the death penalty for drunk driving, and there is NO problem with drunk driving there. The point is to not have the law to kill as many people as you can, but to make the punishment so severe that people will not, even drunk, get in a car and drive. And if they do, the law is the law, and they must die. They were out to murder somebody anyway.

And we could adopt the same laws third world nations do about shoplifting. Ask the shoplifter, "With what hand did you steal that item" and CHOP, the hand is cut off. Shoplifting would certainly decrease in our nation, and you wouldn't be tied up with court costs while they get a lawyer and get all mambsy pambsy about how they have rights too. I say, you break the law, your rights are suspended. Period. And if shoplifting decreased, so would the prices at the store. I guarantee it. I worked in several stores and know the mark ups because of shoplifting.


I agree completely and absolutely with Domino and BudnLou. But unfortunately, there are still problems. There's the main conflict of say, the drunk driving case. Your average thinker would say let's keep civilized, but they aren't in the shoes of those who lost a loved one thanks to some drunken jerk. MAJOR conflict.

I'm against the choping off a shoplifter's hand thing, because I don't think that's the formula for making a good person. If you ask that jerk why he doesn't want to rob a store, instead of saying "because it's wrong. It's an easy answer which are never the right thing to do in the long run." he'll say, "cuz I don't want ma damn hand chopped off!" And it's not like you can easily change the way a person thinks, with how subborn we are today. MAJOR conflict there.

I don't think heros should kill. At least, it shouldn't be the first on their list of ideas to stop even the strongest form of evil on earth, cuz I'm sure we aint seen nothin yet.

The only solution I see is hitting at the root of the problem. The children are what will eventually be running our social and political world, so we have to raise them right. And situations can get really difficult with that in itself.....but it has to be done.

[batboy2001]

Hey Kylewayne, you sound exactly like my mother.:D My cousins tell there parents what to do and they do it. I was in shock when I saw that.:confused:

[xbuilder]

Originally posted by batboy2001
Hey Kylewayne, you sound exactly like my mother.:D My cousins tell there parents what to do and they do it. I was in shock when I saw that.:confused:

If My cousins told my Aunt what to do. She would slap them
backwards down the evoloutionary path.

[Kylewayne]

I say, if you live under your parents roof....you respect them and they have a right to know what is going on with you...cuz they love us and only want the best for us :)

Hey Batboy 2001!, I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks that way. :D






http://www.okieday.com/katherine/kawaiikatt.gif No one can resist my big blue eyes.

[Trent Lane]

That's the law of the land at my house. At about 14, I thought I was tough stuff and tried to do what I wanted, but they quickly set me straight and I have now no problem abiding by their rules and having a nice, warm house to live in. As for my sister, she treats my Mom like crap and doesn't have a problem with that. If she wasn't (a) my sister and (b) a girl, I'D slap her silly so she'd treat my parents, more improtantly, my mother with more respect...

[Calhoun07]

What goes around comes around. My sister was like your sister, and was quite rebellious. Now she's having troubles with her oldest daughter. These things have a way of leveling out later, and what you reap is what you will sow. It's just a law of life that is inescapeable.

[Trent Lane]

Yeah, my Mom will say stuff like "I hope you have four of 'em just like you," so yeah, it could, and most likely will happen to her... revenge is sweet:p

[xbuilder]

http://www.okieday.com/katherine/kawaiikatt.gif No one can resist my big blue eyes. [/B][/QUOTE]

Anime ..Blue eyes...evil