Freedom and Patriotism

[Ben]

Just check the ones you agree with. I've included the old poll (Pledge of Allegiance) in order to make it more easily comparable to this one.

EDIT: Oops. Can I get a mod to add "None of the above" to the options up there?

[Psycho Fox]

Well immigrants becoming American Citizens should have to say the Pledge of Allegiance before they can become full citizens and the Pledge should be tought in school but I don't see a point drilling American Citizens on it people that don't know it are probably not the ones you have ta worry about. Terrorist probably know it backwards and forwards.

As for civil rights for security that is a double edged sword. Civil rights is what serprates nations like the US,UK,ect from places like Gambia and Saudia Arabia. There is a saying Who will guard the guards and the answer is the people. Sure the US could go like China and Terrorist threats would be a thing of the past but I don't think anyone would want that so it is a balancing act.

I don't think South Carolina should have the right to fly the Confederate flag over their capital building. They lost the war and too much evil is associated with the flag. The Soviet flag can't fly in Russia so the Conferderate flag should not be allowed to fly in the US.


Profiling should be allowed for law enforcement but not terrorists. If someone robs a bank of course the Police should use their gender and race to narrow it down but that does not mean the police should supect all people of that race just not supect people not of that race on a case by case bases. Now only screening one race incase they are terrorist is like the police pulling over only blacks when a crime is commited.

#1 it is a huge civil rights infringement

#2 The Terrorist could be look American or even be American so it profiling in that case if counter productive.
I don't think there should be any sort of prohibition against burning the American flag in protest. All it will do it increase flag burning and people have the right to show they are angry with the goverment. The US is not allows right no nation is and flag burning is a tool to get peoples attention so people can hear their side.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Well immigrants becoming American Citizens should have to say the Pledge of Allegiance before they can become full citizens and the Pledge should be tought in school but I don't see a point drilling American Citizens on it people that don't know it are probably not the ones you have ta worry about. Terrorist probably know it backwards and forwards.


Good point.


As for civil rights for security that is a double edged sword. Civil rights is what serprates nations like the US,UK,ect from places like Gambia and Saudia Arabia. There is a saying Who will guard the guards and the answer is the people. Sure the US could go like China and Terrorist threats would be a thing of the past but I don't think anyone would want that so it is a balancing act.


I think a lot of people I've seen say that they'd be willing to give up their "civil liberties" for more security believe that means spending fifteen more minutes in line at the airport, not being held without charge or attorney in a prison for ten years. I'm convinced that what we need is to emphasize the real meaning of these rights by teaching students early on about civil rights abuses in other countries and why and how they don't happen here.

[Pilmedium]

I only voted for one of them, and it was NOT "None of the Above." People should have the right to do what they choose, even if other people disagree.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Pilmedium
I only voted for one of them, and it was NOT "None of the Above." People should have the right to do what they choose, even if other people disagree.

I think I know which one you voted for. Nice catch. Of course the poll is skewed to make it appear that the one you voted for is just as bad as taking away civil liberties. Of course, I believe it is, and the poll's purpose is to generate discussion, not scientific results.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Twage

I think a lot of people I've seen say that they'd be willing to give up their "civil liberties" for more security believe that means spending fifteen more minutes in line at the airport, not being held without charge or attorney in a prison for ten years.But long lines ups in the Airport is not hurting civil liberties neither would if the same thing happened to train stations.

What giving up Civil liberties for security really means is what happened in Montreal in the 70's when there was a terrorist group there killing innocent people and they kidnaped a important political person (I forget who) The war time messures act was enacted and the Canadain Army and RCMP were free to do what ever it took to rescue the kidnaped VIP and bring the terroist to justice. That is what it means to give up civil right for security where your home can be searched with out warrent and just a apology if they find your innocent or thousands of people rounded up in the middle of the night for questioning and let go after 48 hours again with no warrent.



I'm convinced that what we need is to emphasize the real meaning of these rights by teaching students early on about civil rights abuses in other countries and why and how they don't happen here.
I agree

[RogueMartian]

Americans should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
I was sent to the principals office twice for refusing to say the pledge of allegience in High School. I thought it was pointless and had no meaning.

Americans should be willing to temporarily give up some of their civil liberties in the interests of security.
I remember way back in september and october when everyone was saying "if you change the way you normally do things, the terrorists win. Well, Every major airport now has soldiers carrying automatic rifles. Security is the biggest job market right now. The FBI and the CIA are working right now to expand their databases. INS is about to be divided so that half of it can spend its entire time screening immigrants. If this isn't the beginning of a 1984 era, I don't know what is. Personally, I'd rather have freedom with a little risk than safety and be living under a microscope.

South Carolina should have the right to fly the Confederate flag over their capital building.
Definitely. To most southerners the Confederate flag does not represent hatred towards minorities. The confederate flag serves as both pride in where your from and a reminder of the mistakes of the past. It makes me kind of sad that overly sensitive people don't see that.

Profiling by law enforcement should be allowed on the basis of appearance in screening for terrorists.
They'll do that no matter what.

There should be some sort of prohibition against burning the American flag in protest.
Why? The american flag is just a bunch of cloth. Burning it in protest shows that you are against actions of the goverment and that america is not representing you. Its a strong statement and gets a clear message across. Its certainly a stronger statement than a petition.

Land of the free and home of the brave....I'm thinking we have to change that line sometime.

[Watagashi]

Originally posted by RogueMartian

I was sent to the principals office twice for refusing to say the pledge of allegience in High School. I thought it was pointless and had no meaning.


Yeah, I don't really say the pledge of allegience, either. There's just absolutely no point or meaning in it. :dot:

[Gyro]

Originally posted by Watagashi
Yeah, I don't really say the pledge of allegience, either. There's just absolutely no point or meaning in it. :dot: I never really understood the point of the pledge either. No body should be made to say the pledge if they don't want to.

No one ever says the pledge of allegience in my school. We just stand up and listen to it over the announcements. When ever the teacher's not in the room we don't even stand up. :rolleyes:

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by RogueMartian

I remember way back in september and october when everyone was saying "if you change the way you normally do things, the terrorists win. Well, Every major airport now has soldiers carrying automatic rifles. Security is the biggest job market right now. The FBI and the CIA are working right now to expand their databases. INS is about to be divided so that half of it can spend its entire time screening immigrants. If this isn't the beginning of a 1984 era, I don't know what is. Personally, I'd rather have freedom with a little risk than safety and be living under a microscope.
This is nothing, as I stated before the people of Montreal had there right temporarly removed in the 70's with the stroke of a pen so they could remove the terrorist element quickly without having to worry about the legal process. What he have now is a stop gap till security can be addressed. It is better to have the goverment try and stop terrorist before they stike. I don't want civil rights stabled on in the process but come on so far it just means line ups at the airport and a retooling of the intellegnce agencies.



Definitely. To most southerners the Confederate flag does not represent hatred towards minorities. The confederate flag serves as both pride in where your from and a reminder of the mistakes of the past. It makes me kind of sad that overly sensitive people don't see that.Okay put it outside your house underneath the Union flag but not on a fedral building that is technically owned by the US federal goverment. It is not proper protocol the Confederation no longer exsist as any entity. It would be like a captial building in Russia flying the Soviet flag people will associate that with the oppressive communist regime, even if some says they are flying it for nationalism or some junk most people would expect the Russian goverment to take it down. The Confederate flag is the same deal since after the war it was used by southern terrorist that killed and terroised the blacks.

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
This is nothing, as I stated before the people of Montreal had there right temporarly removed in the 70's with the stroke of a pen so they could remove the terrorist element quickly without having to worry about the legal process. What he have now is a stop gap till security can be addressed. It is better to have the goverment try and stop terrorist before they stike. I don't want civil rights stabled on in the process but come on so far it just means line ups at the airport and a retooling of the intellegnce agencies.

Okay put it outside your house underneath the Union flag but not on a fedral building that is technically owned by the US federal goverment. It is not proper protocol the Confederation no longer exsist as any entity. It would be like a captial building in Russia flying the Soviet flag people will associate that with the oppressive communist regime, even if some says they are flying it for nationalism or some junk most people would expect the Russian goverment to take it down. The Confederate flag is the same deal since after the war it was used by southern terrorist that killed and terroised the blacks.
I see the whole confederate flag thing like this.If i shot your brother in the heart would you fly the shirt he was shot in? It doesnt make since to have a reminder of such bigotry flying tall.

[Pilmedium]

Security has become extremely excessive and should be cut back.
Burning an American flag is not a crime. Trying to destroy every American flag you see is a crime. There is a big difference.

[Sandro]

From reading all the other answers, mine seem a little communist :rolleyes: . But I'll give my two cents anyway.

I sort of see the Pledge thing like this: If you choose to say it,
A) What would have been the point of it in the first place and
B) It's almost like giving the people too much freedom, like you can choose to obey the laws this country makes or something.

As for the Civil liberties for security thing, I said yes but I think it's more dependent on the situation at hand.


South Carolina should have the right to fly the Confederate flag over their capital building.

.....why? They lost the war.


They'll do that no matter what.

I agree; they aren't going to stop now.


There should be some sort of prohibition against burning the American flag in protest.

There are plenty of other ways to protest than burning the flag.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
This is nothing, as I stated before the people of Montreal had there right temporarly removed in the 70's with the stroke of a pen so they could remove the terrorist element quickly without having to worry about the legal process. What he have now is a stop gap till security can be addressed. It is better to have the goverment try and stop terrorist before they stike. I don't want civil rights stabled on in the process but come on so far it just means line ups at the airport and a retooling of the intellegnce agencies.


Which is why people are beginning to think all "civil liberties" means is getting through the airport quickly. The rhetoric of Donald "The People Don't Need to Know" Rumsfeld and John "Justice is Distracting" Ashcroft is putting us back into a Cold War-era attitude where the government is always right and should always be obeyed without question. These men are incredibly dangerous.

However, by themselves they can do nothing if the media chooses to scrutinize them. However, the news media is not doing their job. They have engaged in self-censorship since 9/11 to the extent that the public doesn't even realize it anymore. The system is breaking down. The rights of United States citizens are being pulled out from under them.


Originally posted by RogueMartian
Definitely. To most southerners the Confederate flag does not represent hatred towards minorities. The confederate flag serves as both pride in where your from and a reminder of the mistakes of the past. It makes me kind of sad that overly sensitive people don't see that.


I haven't heard the Confederate flag used as a "reminder of past mistakes" before. I don't quite understand the validity of this interpretation. Should the German government fly the Nazi flag on their capital as a similar "reminder?"

It is true that the Confederate flag represented more than just the oppression of blacks. It also represented a form of government with the emphasis on individual district control rather than federal control.

Similarly, the Nazi flag represented a refusal to be subjugated through the Versailles treaty and a renewal of pride in German national identity. The Soviet flag represented the Russian determination to be dealt with as an equal to the European powers.

However, the old meanings of both of these banners are overshadowed by the mass murders that were committed and the hatred that was propogated under them. In the same way, the deaths of hundreds of millions of slaves in the system the Confederacy was fighting to save has overshadowed the old meanings of this symbol.

It may be a reminder of past mistakes. But it should be in a museum with the whips and the pictures of abused and dead slaves, with all the memories of the blood that is on it. Not above a building we consider a symbol of the current government.

Rogue, please don't take this wrong. I am very passionate about this but I do want to hear your reaction. If you believe in this I want to know why, even though I'd rather convince you otherwise.

[Sandro]

Should the German government fly the Nazi flag on their capital as a similar "reminder?"

That's exactly what I thought as well.

[Maxie Zeus]

Just a quick note on the Confederate flag controversy:

Strictly speaking, the question asks if SC has or should have the "right" to fly the flag. That's a different issue than whether it is a good idea to do so.

Surely I have the right to plaster a Confederate, Nazi or Soviet flag on my bumper. Whether it is a wise or offensive thing to do is a separate question.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Just a quick note on the Confederate flag controversy:

Strictly speaking, the question asks if SC has or should have the "right" to fly the flag. That's a different issue than whether it is a good idea to do so.

Surely I have the right to plaster a Confederate, Nazi or Soviet flag on my bumper. Whether it is a wise or offensive thing to do is a separate question.

Your bumper is not the same as a government building that is supposed to uphold the interests of equality and freedom for its population.

However, I see your point. Let me think about it.

EDIT: No, I'm still not convinced that a government should have the right to put down (even symbolically) part of its population.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Twage


Which is why people are beginning to think all "civil liberties" means is getting through the airport quickly. The rhetoric of Donald "The People Don't Need to Know" Rumsfeld and John "Justice is Distracting" Ashcroft is putting us back into a Cold War-era attitude where the government is always right and should always be obeyed without question. These men are incredibly dangerous.

However, by themselves they can do nothing if the media chooses to scrutinize them. However, the news media is not doing their job. They have engaged in self-censorship since 9/11 to the extent that the public doesn't even realize it anymore. The system is breaking down. The rights of United States citizens are being pulled out from under them.Well the problem is that there needs to be change. US intellegince proved it self to be an oxymoron on 9-11. They knew something was going to go down soon by the same people that tried to topple the WTC like a tree which would have done a lot more damage then what happened on 9-11. You got members of this group learning to fly but not take off or land plus they hijack a plane and fly towards NYC which considering they are only violent should have been the final piece in the puzzle. The problem is that US intellegince is deparmental and won't share information so everyone only had a piece of the puzzle. Thus reforms to US intellegince seems called for and like line ups at airports is not a civil rights issue. The US isn't the only one reforming. Shortly after 9-11 a passenger was smoking in the bathroom on the plane and caused the plane to return to Toronto Airport. Toronto ETF and OPP stormed the plane but due to lack of communication they tried to arrest to each other before realising whey were both on the same side then there was an arugment on the plane of who had jurisdiction considering hijacking was neither of theirs and was RCMP but this was not a hijacking.

The real issue is not deparment sharing information or who is in charge for what. It is goverment rights to do their job and peoples right to have their rights. Like the Canadain goverment wants the right to declare millitary zones in a crisis area so the media here asks them to define a crisis ie is a protest a crisis area? if so does that mean the goverment can declare it a millitary zone and everything in it under millitary law? These are the kind of questions the media should be asking

[Ben]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Toronto ETF and OPP stormed the plane but due to lack of communication they tried to arrest to each other before realising whey were both on the same side then there was an arugment on the plane of who had jurisdiction considering hijacking was neither of theirs and was RCMP but this was not a hijacking.

Ouch. At least our guys wear armor that says "FBI" or "NYPD" in big white letters. ;)

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Twage


Ouch. At least our guys wear armor that says "FBI" or "NYPD" in big white letters. ;) Like the RCMP they just have an emblem on their arm for times like that. The point of having big letters on their armor has come up before but they say the big white letter make it easier for them to be seen in the dark which they don't want since it means it is easier for people to shoot at them.

[Dane Martin]

No one ever says the pledge of allegience in my school. We just stand up and listen to it over the announcements. When ever the teacher's not in the room we don't even stand up. :rolleyes:

Are you sure we don't attend the same school? ;)

[RogueMartian]

Rogue, please don't take this wrong. I am very passionate about this but I do want to hear your reaction. If you believe in this I want to know why, even though I'd rather convince you otherwise.
Personally, the only real argument I buy for not flying the confederate flag is because racists and neo nazis presently use the flag as a symbol of their hatred. For this reason alone, do I think the flag should be taken down.

The reason I probably don't see the confederate flag as something evil is because the people I know who fly it are not racists. They fly it because they are civil war buffs, or because they are proud of their state. In one case, they just like the stars and bars design better. The people I know see it as "heritage, not hate". And no country or race has a spot free heritage.

Our present flag has much more of a hatred history to me. The american flag we fly (only with fewer stars) was the flag of a united states that had slavery for far more years under it than the confederate flag. Its the flag of a country whose constitution counts black people as only 5/8 a person. After the civil war, the federal government, (more specifically woodrow wilson) made several extremely racist laws. Outlawing interracial marriages and attempting to keep certain races to certain areas of cities. Its the sign of a country that didn't let women vote until the 20th century. Later it was a symbol of a government that supported disgusting facist regimes simply because it didn't like communism (one of those regimes being the taliban).

Our present flag is a symbol of both our individualism, our desire for freedom and a symbol of our past mistakes. Exactly like the confederate flag. If we want a symbol that offends no one, we should probably get a new design.