Batman Beyond #23 Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

BATMAN BEYOND #23

http://comics.toonzone.net/thumb/bb/bb23sm.jpg (http://comics.toonzone.net/covers/bb/bb23.jpg)

Written by: Paul Storrie
Art by: Craig Rousseau and Rob Leigh
Cover by: Darwyn Cooke

Summary: There's a new "King" in town, and he's putting together a new Royal Flush Gang. Is Batman playing with a full deck when he asks "Ten" to help him take down this dangerous and motley crew?

Comments?

[Calhoun07]

Ah, by mail ordering...I am a tad behind, I believe. Bat titles I recently got are Batman Beyond #22, Gotham Adv #40, and Stan Lee's Just Imagine Batman.

And I have to say Just Imagine w/ Batman is not at all what I was hoping for. I was rather disappointed. I was hoping for more of the feel of Marvel's old first issues, all of which are great and incredible even after all these years. This just had marketing ploy stamped on it some how.

[James Harvey]

Anyways, back on topic, I got the ish and I thought it was a great change of pace. Everything played out real nice. THis was head and shoulders better than the other ROYAL FLUSH GANG story from a couple years back.

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by DickGrayson
Anyways, back on topic, I got the ish and I thought it was a great change of pace. Everything played out real nice. THis was head and shoulders better than the other ROYAL FLUSH GANG story from a couple years back.

Thanks, DG! I was very fortunate to have the awesome cover by Darwyn Cooke (thanked him for the dynamite job when I met him in San Diego) and Craig Rousseau did a really tremendous job bringing the script to life. There were a couple shots that I was really, really hoping would play out well and Craig made sure that they packed the punch I was looking for.

PDS

[James Harvey]

The cover was Great! I can't stop looking at it. Oh, and the writing was good, too. :)

It was an enjoyable issue. Too bad Bader is back next month...

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by DickGrayson
The cover was Great! I can't stop looking at it. Oh, and the writing was good, too. :)

Thanks!

PDS

[Clayface]

Alright, time from some comments from the board scrooge! :)

I picked up the issue today and just read it. Overall, I liked it a lot better than anything bader has done in the comic.

Things I liked:

The cover.

The idea of Jack promoting himself to King in daddy's absence.

Terry wearing a bat-symbol shirt in bed (was that compliments of the writer or the artist?).

The way Ten got the info from her father.

Chet! Chet rocks! More Chet, I say!

Ten: "Discard pile"? How lame is that?

Terry: "I'm beginning to think that relatives can be more trouble than they're worth"
Bruce: "I wouldn't know."



Overall, an enjoyable issue - I'd recommend it to anyone that's been disappointed with Bader's run.

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Clayface
Alright, time from some comments from the board scrooge! :)

I picked up the issue today and just read it. Overall, I liked it a lot better than anything bader has done in the comic.

Much appreciated. Keep up the kind words and you'll have to give up your title of board scrooge!


Things I liked:

The cover.


That was amazing, wasn't it?



The idea of Jack promoting himself to King in daddy's absence.


Jack always seemed like that kind of guy to me.



Terry wearing a bat-symbol shirt in bed (was that compliments of the writer or the artist?).


That was Craig all the way. Made me grin!



The way Ten got the info from her father.


Clever gal, ain't she?



Chet! Chet rocks! More Chet, I say!


I'll have to split that enthusiasm with Craig. Chet is exactly how I described him, but nothing like I expected. Craig made him very, very cool looking.



Ten: "Discard pile"? How lame is that?


The new crew were working a bit too hard at their roles, don't you think? Apparently no one ever taught them the value of subtlety. :D



Terry: "I'm beginning to think that relatives can be more trouble than they're worth"
Bruce: "I wouldn't know."


Glad to see you mention that exchange. It was my favorite from the issue. Craig really gave it impact, didn't he?



Overall, an enjoyable issue - I'd recommend it to anyone that's been disappointed with Bader's run.


Thanks for the kind words. If this is what the board scrooge has to offer, then I feel like I must have done my job pretty well this time around!

PDS

[Blight]

I read it and loved it! The story and art was just about perfect. One of the many things I loved about this issue, was the way Jack proclaimed himself King (and I also loved old man King's reaction:D). Cheers to P.D. Storrie on the last excellent issue we will ever get! I would have much rather seen a story about The Sphinx in the last issue than "Terry's Mom Dates a Splicer" (What kind of crap is that?!).

See ya!
Blight

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Blight
I read it and loved it! The story and art was just about perfect. One of the many things I loved about this issue, was the way Jack proclaimed himself King (and I also loved old man King's reaction:D). Cheers to P.D. Storrie on the last excellent issue we will ever get! I would have much rather seen a story about The Sphinx in the last issue than "Terry's Mom Dates a Splicer" (What kind of crap is that?!).

See ya!
Blight

Between you and Clayface, the supervillains seemed to really like this issue! :)

Thanks for the kudos. Glad you enjoyed this issue.

Obviously I'm also disappointed that the Sphinx story won't see print, but I've been kind of fond of the whole Splicer thread that's run through Batman Beyond (up to and including the Splicer Joker in RotJ). I'll be curious to see what Ms. Bader has cooked up.

Unfortunately, neither of us knew the title was going away when we penned #23 or #24, so I don't believe that either really functions as a wrap for the series. Of course, I haven't read 24 yet, so I could be wrong.

PDS

[Trent Lane]

just picked up issue 23 today and i msut say i think it is one of the better stories in the BB run, about a tie for my favorite with issue 13. the story was great, the art was awesome. too bad we didn't get more like this...

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by flhero311
just picked up issue 23 today and i msut say i think it is one of the better stories in the BB run, about a tie for my favorite with issue 13. the story was great, the art was awesome. too bad we didn't get more like this...


Thanks much. That's pretty high praise -- 13 was a very cool tale.

PDS

[James Harvey]

Paul, what are your favorite tales from the BB comic?

[PDStorrie]

DG,


Originally posted by DickGrayson
Paul, what are your favorite tales from the BB comic?

Liked the first issue a lot -- Batman vs. Batman. Issue 5, Perfect Pitch, had some nice moments (Terry having to use Bruce's old gear, Shriek shutting off his hearing device at the end so he doesn't have to listen to his cellmate). Issue 10, Toy Wonder, had a good twist to it. Issue 13 has been alluded to already (liked how it connected to the earlier show). It was nice to see Bruce get in on the action a bit in issue 16, Snake Food.

And, of course, I'm pretty fond of issue #23!

PDS

[Firefly]

This was probably the best issue of BB the cover was amazing :D

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Firefly
This was probably the best issue of BB the cover was amazing :D

Thanks much! I have to agree about the cover -- Darwyn did a fantastic job!!

PDS

[Maxie Zeus]

So I was in this tiny little newsstand today, in the middle of nowhere, and in a shabby little corner they had a few comics. Wandered over to see what they might have. Would you believe-- every Batman title, including Batman Beyond? Only 20 comics in the whole store, but what there was was "cherce."

So I did get to pick up this issue after all. And am glad I did.

I've never really been a big comics fan, mostly because the format constraints have always seemed too tight to tell anything but the simplest and least complicated stories. There's a definite "cool" factor to a lot of the art, but there often doesn't seem to be room to "dig" into a character or situation, except by having characters deliver long-winded speeches. Even the great O'Neil stories from the 70s feel to me like a lot of plot contrivances in the service of terrific artwork.

But in this one PDS really delivered the goods.

All the cool lines and incidents quoted above are great by themselves, but most of their resonance comes from their place in the story. PDS takes two distinct stories (Terry and his family, and the return of the RFG) and welds them together in such a way that they comment upon each other. Examples that leapt out at me:

* Jack's attempt to resurrect RFG mirrors Terry's attempt to resurrect Batman, with their respective mentors taking diametrically opposite attitudes. (And the fact they do says so much about them.)

* Jack tries to marry family and work (they are the same in his eyes), and fails. Terry's peril lies in keeping them too separate (as illustrated beautifully in the scenes with his mom), and he attempts to bring them together at the end by giving each its rightful place, not forcing them into each other.

* Historically, Batman hasn't got a family (a key reason for his being, of course). PDS wryly suggests that there are definite advantages to this, while pointedly remarking on how lucky Terry really is.

* We've discussed in other threads how much Terry's home life is undeveloped; PDS here gives us a story showing how such development could have been layered in. Marvelously, he doesn't just give us the home life as a backstory, but uses it as an integral part of the story, and the "montage" of Terry doing "family day" actually builds quite a bit of suspense (and humor) into a key part of the story.

Even the comics I've enjoyed have tended to vanish from the memory soon afterwards. This one lingers. Which is good, because there's a lot in it to savor.

[PDStorrie]

Maxie,

There's not much more I can say than thanks, both for your praise and insightful analysis.

PDS

[James Harvey]

http://www.toonzone.net/worldsfinest/batsupes/bbc23.html

The review is up. My comments are usually a paragragh of me either gushing or slamming the issue. I found myself gushing for this one. Don't expect anything analytical or insightful, just gushing. :)

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
http://www.toonzone.net/worldsfinest/batsupes/bbc23.html

The review is up. My comments are usually a paragragh of me either gushing or slamming the issue. I found myself gushing for this one. Don't expect anything analytical or insightful, just gushing. :)

Hey, I've got nothing against gushing! ;-)

PDS

[James Harvey]

This also may be the rare issue I gave 5/5 to. And you deserve the gushing becuase man it was a good read!

[Maxie Zeus]

I recommended this issue on another thread, where we'd been discussing the lack of development in Terry's family life. I got requests to post a summary. Since the issue has been out for a month, I'm going to dispense with the Spoiler stuff, except to warn that there are *spoilers.*

Of course, a cut-and-dried summary is no substitute for PDS' writing, let alone Craig Rousseau's artwork. Find the actual issue, if you possibly can.

"Family Day"

The issue opens with Batman foiling a robbery. An easy job; too easy, Batman decides. There has been a spate of robberies recently, but this one was far too sloppy. But the cops arrive before he can question the thief. As he leaves, we see two members of the RFG (Jack being one) watching. Apparently, Batman has interrupted some selection process.

This is confirmed in the next scene, where Terry at home talks by phone to Bruce, while Matt pesters him about "Family Day." After thrusting Matt outside, Terry learns that the perp has told the police that the robbery was a tryout for the RFG. Before Bruce can clarify, Mary McGinnis interrupts. She has just instituted "Family Day," one day per weekend which is just family: no school, no job, no friends. Wayne apologizes for taking up Terry's time.

Lunch, the mall, a movie, dinner: Terry agonizes thru them, much to his mother's annoyance. Finally Terry escapes: "I though our 'quality time' would never end" he complains by comlink to Wayne. He goes to Melanie, and tells her that someone is holding auditions for the RFG. To Wayne, he reports her shock, and her suspicion (shared by Terry and Wayne) that only Jack could be behind it (King and Queen are in jail). But naturally Wayne is suspicious of Melanie's ultimate loyalties. Terry tries to stick up for her.

Melanie sees the King in prison; he reacts furiously when told that Jack is trying to resuscitate the RFG with himself as King: "That misbegotten, miserable, ungrateful worm! I'll make him pay for this outrage if it's the last thing I do!" Melanie's response: "I thought you might well feel that way."

At the Batcave, Terry reports that everything went as expected-- "even better." He then departs, so as "not to be late."

The new RFG is hailing Jack as the new King, who promises a lucrative reign. He introduces the new members, most prominently Chet, who with some VR-like gizmos is piloting a new but unfinished Ace.

Before new plans can be laid, Batman enters, followed by Melanie. Jack is shocked--this is a new hideout set up after Ten abandoned the RFG; Melanie explains that the King was more than happy to divulge its location after hearing about Jack's treachery. She's also upset: "I bailed you out . . . and this is how you repay me?" Jack: "Repay you? For what? Giving a master thief the chance to become a dishwasher?!"

The fight is brief; the new gang is better at cheesy quips than at combat. At the end, Wayne asks Batman how Melanie is "holding up." Batman: "Just barely. She's feeling pretty betrayed." He then observes: "Between my own 'Family Day' and what she's going thru, I'm beginning to think that relatives can be more trouble than they're worth."

Wayne's laconic, off-page reply: "I wouldn't know."

Epilogue shows Wayne picking up the McGinnis family to take them to dinner, though Wayne explains it is Terry's idea and Terry's treat. Terry explains to his mom that he wanted "to make it up to you for being such a twip the other day." And why am I going, Wayne wonders? "Because you reminded me that I should appreciate the family I still have. . . and in a weird way, I guess you qualify."

A lot of the points I try to make here repeat what I said in an earlier post; I've tried to systematize them better; mostly, though, I'm trying to convey the wonderfully rich thematic mix that comes thru the story as you read it.

In the title, and in Terry's complaint about families, there is an explicit comparison of the two families and their situations. In both the RFG and McGinnis families have been shattered, and suffer from an absent father figure. Both raise issues about split loyalties. Jack tries to resurrect the RFG in defiance of the jailed King; he betrays Melanie's trust; he refuses to rescue Gary (the thief Batman catches at the start). In each case he might (though he doesn't) justify his actions as putting loyalty to the RFG family first; in practice, but how can you be loyal to a group if you are disloyal to each member? Terry faces a different kind of split loyalty: his mother complains about how much his work, friends and school distract from his family life. Jack illustrates how a loyalty that is too exclusionary can undermine itself.

Of course, it's obvious that Jack's loyalty is more toward himself than to the RFG. He is mostly interested in claiming a mantle (that of King). Here too his situation resembles Terry, who is trying to claim the mantle of Batman. Each one faces some conflict with the previous holder of the title. But the reactions of Wayne and the King are strikingly different: the King destroys Jack, whereas Wayne is Terry's mentor. If Wayne and McGinnis form a kind of "family" its one where the members are more loyal to a higher goal (the Batman ideal) than to themselves, and demonstrate that fact by showing loyalty to each other.

Ironically, Jack suffers greater strains than Terry in reconciling competing claims on his attentions, even though it looks like he does not have to juggle as many commitments: work simply IS family in the RFG. But that means he cannot give each aspect of his life its proper due: He cannot uphold his commitment to the RFG (to keep it going), be loyal to the King (by showing filial subordination) and satisfy his own need to excel (by returning to crime) all at once. Terry suffers the opposite problem, in that the parts of his life are too rigidly and cleanly segregated from each other. But it also gives him greater flexibility in trying to reconcile them, because he can pay each its proper due: he can take "family day" off from work, and effect something like a détente between Wayne and his mother by occasionally bringing them together (as in the dinner date that closes the issue).

This last shows just how lucky Terry is. PDS emphasizes the point by wryly suggesting that there are definite disdvantages to having a family, while pointedly reasserting how unhistorical it is for Batman to have a family at all.

It is this sort of subtle technique that gives the issue its sly intelligence; most comics (in my experience, at least) are far too explicit in their points and claims; with BB#23, however, there's a feeling that a master storyteller is gently guiding you to insights and conclusions without tipping them directly into your lap. (Another instance of the same: Chet, the "VR" operator of Ace. Really, he stands in the same way to Ace as Jack does to the RFG: Neither has been fully repaired, so someone has to pilot them by remote control.) At the end you realize the story has been moving on two tracks: The surface action revolves around the RFG, but thematically the focus is on Terry and his relationship with his family. Thus, it deploys two stories, and uses one to dynamically develop and comment upon a deeper one. Nor is the relationship merely expressive; the "montage" showing Terry during his 'Family Day' not only focuses our attention on the problems in his family life, but builds excellent suspense into the action-oriented story by distracting Terry from his work.

This is a terrific illustration of how to tell a story which develops an undeveloped aspect of Terry's life (his family) without melodramatically pulling them into the action itself (like in "Bloodsport") or by dropping in some otherwise tedious exposition (like in "Revenant"). It shows that we don't have reason to be content with the development we were given in BB; PDS here shows how it could have been done.

In fact, I only have two complaints. (I feel like I should insert SOME criticism, at least, to take a little of the edge off all this gushing--and to show that my praise is sincere.) First, Mary McGinnis emerges as a far more forceful personality, in her dealings with Wayne and with Terry, than the flake we're used to from the show. This is entirely a matter of her dialogue (and so reflects no intrinsic weakness in the story); at the bottom of page 8, for instance, I suspect that a simple line like "What a great day. Wish you could have been there, Terry." would have pointedly conveyed Mary's disappointment and still riled Terry, without introducing the (new for Mary) hectoring tone. Granted, Mary might have been a more interesting character in the show if she had always had the tone PDS gives her, but at this late date (and if we're going to fantasize about new BB episodes on CN, why not fantasize about an adaptation of this excellent story?) it's something of a shock. But on the other hand, maybe I just shouldn't confuse the two continuities.

Second, Bruce's worries about Melanie's trustworthiness, though perfectly in character, prove entirely to be a red herring. Of course, it would be an odd omission if Bruce didn't voice misgivings, and they play on suspicions that readers who know RFG already have. And there is no call for Melanie to actually act treacherously toward Batman. But the question of her ultimate loyalty is raised without ever being dealt with, even obliquely. A single panel, perhaps after the fight, in which she raises and contemplates the Queen's crown (while Batman watches) might have communicated the fact of her conflicted feelings and discharged a conflict that, once raised, is never again addressed.

Enough carping. The highest praise I can give a story is to say that it feels as though it has escaped its author's intentions and control, that something organic and unplanned has occurred (just as in real life). This one certainly does. Whether that's the case or not--whether PDS designed everything I've mentioned here or not--it testifies to a talent I'm excited to discover. He's either very subtle and very skilled, or has a terrific intuitive knack for good stories.

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Enough carping. The highest praise I can give a story is to say that it feels as though it has escaped its author's intentions and control, that something organic and unplanned has occurred (just as in real life). This one certainly does. Whether that's the case or not--whether PDS designed everything I've mentioned here or not--it testifies to a talent I'm excited to discover. He's either very subtle and very skilled, or has a terrific intuitive knack for good stories.

The carping is perfectly valid, though.

With Terry's mom, I guess I just went with what I felt she *should* be like, a bit more strenuously mom-like. I can see how you might find that jarring.

With Melanie ... well, there was her comment about the new Queen not being fit to polish the sceptre. I was trying to convey that she still has some attachment to the "old days", whether she wants to admit it or not.

As for the question of whether the story got away from me or whether everything you see is a cunning masterplan, I'd have to say that it's probably more the former than the latter. Not that I didn't intend for what you see in the story to come across. I did, for the most part. However, the fact that those elements hit you as forcefully as they do probably has a lot to do with the story taking on a certain life of it's own, adding momentum to the elements I incorporated and bringing each a bit more impact than I planned (although it sounds like they did have the impact that I *hoped*).

Thanks again.

PDS

[Salvor]

Better late than never. I think the issue totally rocks! The story itself stands out as one of the most thorough and imaginative stories ever told in this book. One very memorable quote remains the chilling "I wouldn't know" from Bruce, which brings out perfectly the striking difference between Bruce and Terry.

On the other hand the monopoly line is just hilarious. :)

Of course, Craig displays a great talent, especially in the action scenes. [one downpoint: Batman looks really really weird in that first page, doesn't he??]

5/5 sounds good to me!

[PDStorrie]

Originally posted by Salvor
Better late than never. I think the issue totally rocks! The story itself stands out as one of the most thorough and imaginative stories ever told in this book. One very memorable quote remains the chilling "I wouldn't know" from Bruce, which brings out perfectly the striking difference between Bruce and Terry.

On the other hand the monopoly line is just hilarious. :)

Of course, Craig displays a great talent, especially in the action scenes. [one downpoint: Batman looks really really weird in that first page, doesn't he??]

5/5 sounds good to me!

Thanks, Salvor!

One of the things I was trying to do with this issue, because they do it so well in the show, was make sure that there was humor to counterpoint the more serious moments.

For my part, I didn't notice anything particularly strange about Batman on page one. What was it that bugged you?

PDS

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by PDStorrie
With Melanie ... well, there was her comment about the new Queen not being fit to polish the sceptre. I was trying to convey that she still has some attachment to the "old days", whether she wants to admit it or not.

I thought that line might have had that intention behind it--and it works that way. It just gets kind of lost in the rest of the quips in the fight scene, is all.

Hard to gauge the impact when you're trying to be subtle, right? ;) And I like subtlety better than explicit stuff, too.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by PDStorrie
For my part, I didn't notice anything particularly strange about Batman on page one. What was it that bugged you?

PDS

In terms of proportions, he looked off to me. Back to the monopoly quote, now THAT pannel is impressive.

[James Harvey]

The subtle nature of the story was a beautiful change from the exposition we usually get. I mean, what's better:

a) Batman sneaking into the room to get the crooks

b) Batman runs in yelling "I'M RIGHT HERE!!!"

I just really dig the story.