Toonheads Christmas Special 7/22

[Argus Sventon]

Since everyone at the Ga. office is out in the field today, I had time to watch CN's Christmas in July marathon. :-(

Alias St. Nick MGM
Captains Christmas MGM
Peace on Earth MGM considered for Nobel Prize
Night Before Christmas MGM Tom and Jerry
Bedtime for Sniffles BR MM "Dubbed"

[Sveven Dvorking]

That special has been airing a lot. There must be more than 5 classic Christmas-themed cartoons that they could show. As already stated by someone else, change the special!

Alias St. Nick Too bad this had to be the first 1935 MGM cartoon for me to see back in December.

Captain's Christmas Although this is announced on the special as the only color cartoon for Captain and the Kids, that is a mistake. Petunia Natural Park was also released in color.

Peace on Earth is the most horrible MGM cartoon I have ever seen! I know it's your favorite, Argus, but I think it is awful!

Night Before Christmas gets a lot of airtime, including on some regular Tom & Jerry episodes.

Bedtime for Sniffles At least they decided to throw in one non-MGM cartoon in this special. Was there ever a Popeye christmas cartoon? (other than Seasin's Greetinks, which doesn't follow the theme much) If there was, they could have shown a Popeye. They could have shown 3 MGMs and 2 WBs for this special, using the Sylvester & Tweety cartoon Gift Wrapped for the second WB. Kind of off-topic, but at least I got the thought out.

[Joe Tully]

There was the Popeye "Mister and Mistletoe" in which Bluto dresses up like Santa. But that's a Paramount from '55, not a Fleischer, and I don't really enjoy it. The old Fleischer's are the only ones I really like anymore, the late Fleischer's (like Pip-eye, Pup-eye, Poop-eye and Peep-eye...yuck ) and Paramount Popeyes are too annoying, and of course later Paramounts get very formulaic.

[Sveven Dvorking]

The old Fleischers are fine when presented in original form, but I hate the redrawns.

So you are saying you would rather see the redrawn "Seasin's Greetinks" on that special? I would take a 1955 classic over a redrawn anyday. And what is so bad about formulaic? I'm sure many studios made some of their cartoons that way.

[Joe Tully]

Actually, I didn't say that, but yeah, I guess I'd rather see the redrawn Seasin's Greetinks. B&W would be better if they could fit it in, of course, but they probably wouldn't.

The problem with formulaic? Well the only problem is that the plot is basically the same thing for every single episode. That's all. Yeah, Paramount used formulas a lot, esp. for Casper. And Terrytoons too, with Heckle and Jeckle and Mighty Mouse. But you know why the board spends more time talking about the WB and MGM stars then Paramount's and Terrytoons? Because the cartoons were flippin' boring and nobody cares about them! Popeye's just managed to coast on the reputation that the Fleischer's built up, while other output such as Casper and Baby Huey were put into syndication on TV, and kids love repetition. But for most viewers above the age of 8, these toons are about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Sorry if I offended any Terrytoons or Paramount fans.:)

[Jon Cooke]

Originally posted by Joe Tully
But you know why the board spends more time talking about the WB and MGM stars then Paramount's and Terrytoons? Because the cartoons were flippin' boring and nobody cares about them!


Another factor for lack of discussion of those studios could be that the non-Popeye Paramount cartoons and Terrytoons (along with the Lantz cartoons) are almost impossible for normal viewers to watch for themselves (on video or television) these days. I know that even in my pretty large video collection of classics, I only have a couple tapes worth of Terrytoons.


-Jon

[Joe Tully]

Well, yeah, I agree with you on that. But, if they were more interesting and popular, then I think that they would also be more available on TV and video/DVD.

[J Lee]

There are some good Paramount cartoons from the 1940s and 1950s, and there are even some good Terrytoons from the same period (H&J mainly). The problem is, there are just not enough of them in the minds of the network programmers to justify their continued use on TV.

With the Warner cartoons, and to a lesser extent with the MGMs, the reverse is true -- there are some crappy WB and MGM cartoons that most people might only care to see once a year, if that, but there are enough good ones so that those cartoons can be used very infrequently and still have enough good cartoons in heavy rotation to keep things from getting stale.

Since Viacom owns all the Terrytoons and the 1929-1950/1962-67 non Popeye/Superman Paramounts, they could conceivably cobble together a package that would only air the best of those cartoons on a regular basis and still have enough to go around to avoid overplaying. It wouldn't cost them anything to air on Nickelodeon, since they're a Viacom subsidary, but Nick has gone in big for shows that they can license stuff for if it becomes a big success, and the older `toons don't fit that pattern.

[Sveven Dvorking]

I don't think Nickelodeon will ever air classic cartoons again, even if it is legal. Too bad for Terrytoons and Paramount fans.

[simon]

Honestly, I think that if more people had a chance to see cartoons from studios like Terry and Famous, these cartoons might have a better reputation.

The problem is that, since the early '80s, all classic animation has been recieving less and less airplay on T.V. The Warner and MGM cartoons have been the exception, since they were undoubtedly the best studios of the '40s and '50s and still have a rather large fan base, but that doesn't mean that other studios' output is worthless. I really think that fans of classic WB and MGM cartoons would find much to enjoy about the Terrytoons, the Lantz cartunes, and some non-Popeye Famous stuff.

But because this stuff is near-impossible to see, many fans seem to take Maltin's opinions of these shorts as gospel. In a way this is understandable, since he is probably the only author to have written at length about non Disney, WB and MGM cartoons. But I think these cartoons should be made available for us to judge for ourselves.

I have seen quite a few Terrytoons, and I can say that for the most part they are not boring in the least. The earliest sound Terrytoons are in their own way almost as insanely creative and surrealist as the Fleischer cartoons of the same period. Most of the Mighty Mouse, Heckle & Jeckle and Gandy Goose cartoons were excellent, in my opinion, as were a lot of the one shots. I consider them to be pretty much the only studio that carried on the east coast, Fleischer/Van Beuren style well into the fifties.

The biggest problem with Terrytoons is that they are wildly inconsistent, and a great Jim Tyer scene (get the current Animation Blast for more on him) can be followed by a poorly done scene, but there are a lot of truly hilarious ideas in Terrytoons. Also, as Sogturtle rightly pointed out on the old board, the soundtracks were atrocious.

The Gene Deitch Terrytoons of the '50s were very interesting and original as well. My own favourite series of his is Gaston Le Crayon. After he left, I think everything else they put out was worthless, except for maybe a few Deputy Dawg cartoons.

With Famous, most of their '40s output is well worth seeing, if not always great. I'm particularly fond of the cartoons that try to imitate Tex Avery and miss the mark, coming off as pointlessly violent and morbid... I know that's not much of a recommendation, but those cartoons are fascinating in their own way. I agree that by the early '50s the cartoons became pretty formulaic and boring, but I don't think they are horrible by any means...

I have seen just about all of the colour Lantz cartunes, and up until about '62 they range from superb to just so-so, but they are all interesting. The '60s and '70s output, however, is beyond dreadful.

I have only seen a couple of Columbia cartoons, but they were very interesting... I'd love to see more.

Anyway, my point is that cartoons shouldn't be written off as worthless just because Cartoon Network doesn't hold the rights to them.

Simon

[J Lee]

You're right about Nickelodeon being unlikely to air those cartoons -- the best chance for them to show up would be in a Saturday morning block on one of Viacom's other two channels geared towads TV re-runs nowadays, TV Land or TNN.

[NickM]

Originally posted by Sveven Dvorking

Peace on Earth is the most horrible MGM cartoon I have ever seen! I know it's your favorite, Argus, but I think it is awful!


Sveven, I don't agree, I definately DON'T agree. "Peace on Earth" is one of the most beautiful and symbolic cartoons I have ever seen. It's a shame that it didn't win the Oscar in 1939, I just find it ironic in a way because this cartoon was released just about 2 years before the USA got thrown into WWII.

How you can insult such a classic and beautiful cartoon is beyond me, say what you just said to true animation fans and to true animation historians.

NickM

[Jack]

"Peace On Earth" is a highpoint of the Harman-Ising era at MGM. It proves that a cartoon really can convey a strong message effectively.

The cartoon is beautiful, maybe one of the most beautiful films of it's kind ever made. It can be lighthearted, and chilling at the same time. It's amazing that such a film could have been made, and one like it couldn't really be made today.


Jack:D

[Sveven Dvorking]

Had Peace on Earth won the Oscar, I would have fainted as soon as I heard that.

I disagree a lot with you, NickM, which makes for a miserable board.:(

[Jon Cooke]

Originally posted by Sveven Dvorking
I disagree a lot with you, NickM, which makes for a miserable board.:(

Was this comment really necessary? It sounds like you want to drive Nick away from the board. He just has a difference of opinion. So what? I know you may find this shocking, but I think the varying opinions around here is what makes this board so enjoyable... not miserable.

Also, take it easy on those replies there, Sveven. Before you hit that "Submit Reply" button, ask yourself ... "Is this post really necessary"?


-Jon

[Patrick McCart]

Sveven Dvorking Had Peace on Earth won the Oscar, I would have fainted as soon as I heard that.

I disagree a lot with you, NickM, which makes for a miserable board.

You're that old? :eek:

[Sveven Dvorking]

Originally posted by Patrick McCart


You're that old? :eek:

No! I must mention this because I feel insulted. I meant that in the 1990s when I would have found out that fact, I would hardly believe it.