Based on info from the new Star Wars movies .. Luke vs Anakin(strength in the force)

[Stupendous Man]

Thinking about Phantom Menace recently ..

PM states Anakin is the most powerfull force user ever.
So in tune with the force that he wasnt even conceived
by man - but by the force. Anakin has no father - the
Star Wars universes version of immaculate conception.

My question is .. does this mean that Vader is more powerfull than Luke ?

I realize force users to draw from the Dark powers are inherintly more powerfull .. but if Luke and Anakin were drawing from the same side of the force ( i.e. both from the good or dark sources)
who would be more powerfull ?


Wondering from referrencing the original trilogy .. the emperor wanted Luke to strike down his father and replace him.
The emperor always saw Luke as a threat.

Was Luke a threat because he could command greater power than the emperor or Vader .. or because he could not be swayed to the dark side? Because the emperor was aware that Luke might be able to sway the loyalty of Anakin ( Vader ) who was the real threat all along ?

[Jedi Knight]

I think there's 2 things you have to look at:

1) The amount of force (midichlorians) that flows through you.
2) Your ability to control them.

I'd say the most powerful Jedi ever is Yoda, but when it comes to Vader vs. Luke, it depends on when you look at Vader. In Episode III, we'll see him at his prime when he's perfectly in tune with the Dark Side and able to defeat pretty much everyone. He is, however, still cocky and the Dark Side is never as powerful as the Light Side, so he's not the greatest ever (Yoda is).

Luke was pretty crappy in ESB because he didn't have any control. In ROTJ, he was fully trained and able to defeat Vader because he had the ability to control his emotions (and the Force).

To answer your question, it depends on WHEN you look at Vader and Luke. At one point, both of them were not fully trained, and Vader was weaker at the end of his career because of the suit and damage he sustained at the end of Episode III.

If you were to look at both of them in their prime, I'd say Anakin/Vader would win just on midichlorian count.

[Jedigreedo]

Something you also have to consider is that Anakin got REAL Padawan/Master training from Obi-Wan while Luke was inbetween masters throughout the trilogy and wasn't really able to get the force skills that Anakin was able to get.

[Stupendous Man]

Posted by Jedi Knight

the Dark Side is never as powerful as the Light Side, so he's not the greatest ever (Yoda is).



Shame on you Jedi Knight .. you should know better .

Even in the original trilogy the continually mention that the Dark Side of the force is more powerfull than the good.

It even makes sense because to access the Dark Side you have to crave power . A proper jedi is not supposed to crave power ..
therefore to want to access the greater powers of the dark side automatically puts you on the path to the dark side.

This fact is also mentioned in all the novelizations and text material. But if your a purist .. rewatch Empire and you can hear it from Yoda himself .


~

Also I disagree that Yoda is the most powerfull force user.

I would argue that Yoda is the most skillfull , most knowledgable ..but not most powerfull.

I see it as comparing Mohamed Ali to Mike Tyson.

Ali's a better boxer .. but Mike packs more punch.

Put Ali and Tyson together in a ring and Tyson will devour him.

But even thought Ali looses ..as far as boxing goes hes still
"The Greatest". Yoda is the Ali of the force.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
Shame on you Jedi Knight .. you should know better .

Even in the original trilogy the continually mention that the Dark Side of the force is more powerfull than the good.


Ok, that's just plain wrong. I watched ESB just yesterday, and Yoda himself says "NO. Not more powerful, only quicker, easier, more seductive." Luke asks him if the Dark Side is more powerful, and Yoda says NO, so trust me, the Dark side is not more powerful.



Also I disagree that Yoda is the most powerfull force user.

I would argue that Yoda is the most skillfull , most knowledgable ..but not most powerfull.

I see it as comparing Mohamed Ali to Mike Tyson.

Ali's a better boxer .. but Mike packs more punch.

Put Ali and Tyson together in a ring and Tyson will devour him.

But even thought Ali looses ..as far as boxing goes hes still
"The Greatest". Yoda is the Ali of the force.

I'm not sure that analogy works in this context, but that's a whole other can of worms. This is an incredibly subjective matter, so I won't bother to debate it with you. I've heard people tell me that the Emperor is the most powerful. Some say Luke is because he "destroyed" Vader. Some say Obi-Wan, because he defeated Anakin in his prime (at least that's what the rumors about Episode III say). The most powerful Force-user can never be determined with absolute certainty, it's only a matter of opinion.

In my opinion, anyone who can live for 900 years and STILL kick ass with the force, has gotta be one powerful being. (By the way, Yoda proves that he is the man in AOTC!)

[killercroc]

Along those lines. Why does hate make you evil? Especially when you hate someone that is evil. When our boys went over and fought the Germans in WWII, I'm sure that a lot of them hated the Germans. They didn't turn evil. Maybe since the force is involved, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, wouldn't a lightsaber make a really great tool in the yard? Lop off branches with the greatest of ease.

[oranthal]

now that we are on this subject, at the end of ESB where Vader asked Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy, did he actually have a father/son feeling? he was obviously ruling with the emperor so why did he want Luke to join him? was it a sense of family? was Vader sick of the emperor?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by killercroc
Along those lines. Why does hate make you evil? Especially when you hate someone that is evil. When our boys went over and fought the Germans in WWII, I'm sure that a lot of them hated the Germans. They didn't turn evil. Maybe since the force is involved, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, wouldn't a lightsaber make a really great tool in the yard? Lop off branches with the greatest of ease.

Well, Star Wars has always been about religion, which is why hate is associated with evil. In most religious texts, hate leads down a dark path which is never the way to true enlightenment. Love is the way. I could go into more detail, but you'd fall asleep and my hands would get tired.

By the way, the lightsaber would be excellent as a tool around the house, just as long as you don't lop someone's arm off. ;)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by oranthal
now that we are on this subject, at the end of ESB where Vader asked Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy, did he actually have a father/son feeling? he was obviously ruling with the emperor so why did he want Luke to join him? was it a sense of family? was Vader sick of the emperor?

If you remember in Episode I, Yoda talks about how at all times there can only be 2 Sith: A master and an apprentice. The goal of any Sith (or the Dark Side in general) is to attain ultimate power. In ESB, Vader is still the apprentice to the Emperor. He wanted Luke to join him not only so that he would be reunited with his son and rule the galaxy as a family, but also so that he could overthrow the Emperor and become the Master himself. Then he'd be his own boss - in a sense. (I guess you could think of it as greed.)

[Anyone00]

I would like once more to go on record on how much I despise "midichlorians". With that Lucas decided to screw over the entire mystical concept of the Force.

As for Light side vs. Dark Side: remember the path to power on the Dark side is faster but the Light side is ultimately vastly more powerful.

[RockItShipper]

Originally posted by Anyone00
As for Light side vs. Dark Side: remember the path to power on the Dark side is faster but the Light side is ultimately vastly more powerful.

The Dark Side seems to push one's drive for the tangible easier- so the rewards and power surge are easier and faster to obtain... But it's kinda like a drug fix, probably, with more and more hits being sought... Also, I'm not sure it's canon but supposedly the Dark Side has a nasty effect on the body- as shown by Palpatine.

[DR. BELCH]

killercroc
Why does hate make you evil? Especially when you hate someone that is evil.
The problem as I see it is becoming worse that what you disagree with (hate is a strong word) and fight against. How does one express one's feelings of dislike? Vladimir Lenin disagreed with the Czar, staged a coup in Russia in 1917, and subsequently became a megalomaniacal s.o.b. On his deathbed he demaded that Josef Stalin not succeed him because he sensed, if you'll pardon the expression, darkness within him. Lenin was ignored; Stalin did become premier, and eclipsed his former master with his tyrannies.
Or, in the comics, Charles Xavier and Eric Magnus. Why did the old friends part ways and choose radically different tacts when ultimately they both only want mankind to accept them? Magneto lost his soul somewhere along the line, not unlike Anakin/Vader. Why do some crumble more easily under adversity? Their spirits are weaker. Why? If I knew that I'd be a theologian. I mean, I've heard all my life "trust in God and grow stronger", but it seems to me that you can overtrust just as much as you can forsake Him --which leads to all manner of atrocities done in His name.
So maybe Vader trusted too much in the Force and it corrupted him body and soul? Maybe one day he realized he stopped being real and had became just a brainless puppet of his "dead religion"...and crushing The Emporer seemed the only way to affirm that he was actually a human being and not just a grotesque creature hiding behind a cape and breathing filter, grabbing at shadows. Though his big sin here would be pride, coupled with greed (and if you've ever seen a man in the throes of such an emotion, trust me, it isn't pretty--some go so mad they even neglect basic personal hygiene in their quest for it all, to say nothing of morality).

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Anyone00
I would like once more to go on record on how much I despise "midichlorians". With that Lucas decided to screw over the entire mystical concept of the Force.


It seems like a lot of people were mad about this, and I used to be mad about it, but now I'm ok with it. The major beef is that the Force is now a concept of science rather than belief/religion/mysticism. The thing is, we already knew it had to be something physical, because it's passed on from parent to child.

To me, it's just indicative of the kind of world (galaxy) that exists at the time of the PT. In the OT things became more structured within the Empire, so religion and faith were all people (of the Rebellion) had to go on. In the PT, there is hope for everyone really, so society relies more on science than faith.

This is kinda true in real life too, since science seems to rule our life now, whereas faith would have been more dominant in medieval times. (Ok, not the best comparison, but hopefully you guys understand)

[RockItShipper]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


It seems like a lot of people were mad about this, and I used to be mad about it, but now I'm ok with it. The major beef is that the Force is now a concept of science rather than belief/religion/mysticism. The thing is, we already knew it had to be something physical, because it's passed on from parent to child.

Mmmmm.... We know that's the case with Anakin Skywalker and his offspring. (and there's no indication that either Shmi or Amidala had the potential)

But a hereditary system is at odds with the Jedi ban on marriage- unless Jedi are allowed to have one-nighters to raise their numbers. :D

A less colorful possibility is that the midichlorian counts needed for Jedi training is a recessive genetic trait. Anakin's roots probably change the odds dramatically, because his birth is not explained by science.



To me, it's just indicative of the kind of world (galaxy) that exists at the time of the PT. In the OT things became more structured within the Empire, so religion and faith were all people (of the Rebellion) had to go on. In the PT, there is hope for everyone really, so society relies more on science than faith.

I think that's one of the themes really brought out in the prequels and bringing new questions/observations in the OT. I always thought Darth Vader and Boba Fett were foils to eachother, but it was a pretty superficial thing about the types of armor each wore. But Darth Vader's birth does indeed come from the mythological tradition, whereas Boba Fett's is the science fiction adaption of the same tradition.