Justice League "Legends, Parts 1 & 2" Talkback (Spoilers) [Archive] - Page 2

Borg4of3

04-29-2002, 02:36 AM

First of all, I think Ray is dead. The Guard brought up a good point about J'onn's dialogue concerning him, but he could have just as easily said that respectfully concerning a corpse. Add to that the fact that that disgusting throbbing vein was no longer throbbing disgustingly. Err - it wasn't throbbing at all actually.

My second point about him goes toward the JG being able to defeat him. Remember that the JG were Ray's heroes. Like any artist/creator, he would make them as noble, as true, and as invincible as possible. He greatly respected them, and when they turned against him, he might not have been able to bring himself to attack them, as well as being utterly confused on right and wrong. I mean, if you created the JL in a dream world and they turned against you for a noble cause, would you want to be the bad guy? But would you want to lose? Take into account Ray's line, "I decide who wins and who loses," Who would you decide to win in a battle like that? I'm already getting a headache thinking about it :p Anyway, I think that, right when his heroes died, he did too.

So, in other words, Ray blew his own mind up, so the JG didn't kill him (if he's dead). Its sad too, since Ray is a villain worthy of the likes of TwoFace and Clayface - truly tragic and understandable. :(

On Clayface's post, I'll say this: I was somewhat offended. Its one thing to be the turd in the pile, as some would say, by disagreeing with the populace. Its another thing to make a disrespectful comment like, "What the heck was that," I'm not complaining with what he said, just how he said it. Its a small thing to me, but still just a bit rude.

"In Seaboard City, Crime doesn't pay," - my new fave quote from this episode! The latent meaning, the execution - just perfect!

Doctor Logic

04-29-2002, 03:22 AM

Great episode!
A perfect tribute to the Golden Age while deftly side-stepping any messy continuity traps.
As much as I would have loved to see Jay Garrick in full animated glory, this story did NOT disappoint!

jm5150bc

04-29-2002, 03:26 AM

Well let me just say that this "older" fan (I'm 36) loved this particular story arc, on 2 levels...

The JGA appealled to the 8-year old in me who loved the Silver Age Characters with all of their campy, high-moral, innocent attitudes and the whole Earth 1 and Earth 2 idea. The red phone under a glass dome and the Chief O'Sfhaugnessy (O'Hara) nods to the Adam West era Batman, and too many other sort of "in" jokes to mention.

The writing of this arc also appealled to the 36-year old, more sophisticated (hopefully !!) part of me that appreciates the more adult, intelligent aspects of all of these BT & Co. animated series'. They came up with a clever, if somewhat contrived, way of explaining the co-existence of more that 1 Earth (J'onn explained it, so I won't repeat it here). This arc was both serious and a lot of fun at the same time- respectful of what came before, but still rooted in the "now".

Sure it would have been cool to see the JSA, and 2 versions of Superman, Batman, etc... but I think the JGA were certainly iconic enough that we all got the picture and knew who they were meant to reflect. All in all, great idea... great story arc.

Ed Liu

04-29-2002, 07:19 AM

Howdy all,

I'm not a mod, nor do I play one on TV, but it seems to me that there are a lot of unnecessarily inflammatory comments flying around. Can we try to keep it civilized here?

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
Well, it would've helped if they had let us the viewers know, because I was wondering why the heck they were willing to go to their deaths just to prevent their world from being alive.
:p

I thought about this a bit last night. The best answer I can come up with is that the Justice Guild stood for Truth and Justice. No matter how good their world seemed on the surface, it was still a lie, and one at the whims of a teenager in an arrested mental state. Given that, the JGA chose to fight for the harsh "Truth" of the real world, rather than continue living on in the lies of the created one.

Look at it this way: the JGA's motivation was the same as Neo's in The Matrix. If the fake world is good enough that nobody really notices that it's fake, what right did anybody have to release them into the "real" one, especially when the "real" one is so much harsher?

I do like the Borg4of3's interpretation that Ray's brain got fried because he knew that the real JGA wouldn't have tolerated his actions. There's no mental position worse than having someone catch you in your own lies.

What does bother me about the episode more than anything is that NONE of this is explained, or even hinted at. It's up to us to come up with it ourselves, which (IMO) has always been the failing of this JL.

-- Ed/Ace

Mister Intensity

04-29-2002, 08:01 AM

I believe Ray is supposed to be Brainwave.

Mister Intensity

SimonMoon5

04-29-2002, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by jm5150bc
and the Chief O'Sfhaugnessy (O'Hara) nods to the Adam West era Batman,

I didn't think this was so much a Batman riff as it was a nod to the fact that cops of a certain era always seemed to be Irish.

Clayface

04-29-2002, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Borg4of3
On Clayface's post, I'll say this: I was somewhat offended. Its one thing to be the turd in the pile, as some would say, by disagreeing with the populace. Its another thing to make a disrespectful comment like, "What the heck was that," I'm not complaining with what he said, just how he said it. Its a small thing to me, but still just a bit rude.

Well, I'm not quite sure what was "rude" about it. It was my honest reaction when I saw the episode. That is literally what I said when I watched it.

And I meant it in two ways. First, in regards to the freaky little kid. He changed, and that was my reaction. He seemed rather unimpressive, and I was disappointed that this was our "villian".
Second, that was my reaction to the entire episode. I just didn't get it, for whatever reason - be it my lack of background on the characters from the Golden Age, or my dislike of "camp". To me, it came across as camp (in a bad way), trite, and incredibly sappy. I didn't find it tragic, because frankly, I couldn't have cared less about the characters. Whatever the reason, I felt incredibly let down by the episode, and all I could think of after watching it was "what the heck was that" - I just didn't get it.

SimonMoon5

04-29-2002, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by The Green Hornet
What did YOU think of Legends? Truely? The plot, characters, how the JL worked with them?

How does the JGA compare with the REAL JSA? Could this episode have been better? If so, How?

My thoughts:

Thinking of the JGA as the JSA negatively colored my impression of an otherwise fine pair of episodes. I felt like the high camp was an attempt to show how silly these old-time heroes were, heroes that I actually like and who weren't actually this silly.

Yes, there were silly elements to the Golden Age, but there are silly elements to the Modern Age. Personally, I think the Silver Age is the silliest age of all, what with the talking gorillas, invisible planes, and multiple shades of kryptonite. Focusing only on those is detrimental to taking the characters seriously... which is perhaps not a problem for the cartoon, since the JGA won't be seen again, but when the JGA conflates with the JSA in my mind, I feel that there has been a slight to the JSA.

I felt like I was watching one of those Mad magazine parodies. Instead of Batman and Robin, we have Bratman and Rotten. I know, that's not the intent of the cartoon, but that's how it felt to me on one level. On another level, I could still try to enjoy it for what it was.

And one reason why it was good not to use the JSA is that the characters died. This is a problem that I have with movie adapations of comics sometimes; if they're not planning to use the character again, they might as well kill him. (For example, the Joker in the Batman movie.) So, we won't ever see the JGA again... or if we do, it will involve time travel and the JGA won't remember the previous teamup, so it would seem hollow. Of course, with only about a dozen stories per season, the writers probably don't have the room to return to concepts used once, which means that not only won't we see the JGA again, we won't even see the JSA once (what would be the point now?) which is a great shame.

How does the JGA compare to the JSA? Obviously, they're campier and sillier, but are otherwise fairly straight analogs.

Silly JSA moment: Wonder Woman, one of the most powerful members, was relegated to being their secretary.

Silly JGA moment: Black Siren bakes cookies while the boys talk.

Silly JSA moment: You could send in to become a member of the junior JSA. You got a certificate and maybe a badge, but I don't think you got a decoder ring like you would with Captain Midnight. The Junior JSA even helped out once or twice.

Silly JGA moment: the JLA are given JGA decoder rings.

So, it's not just a matter of making silliness where there is none, but rather the emphasis on silliness and out-dated attitudes ("You're a credit to your race") which the JSA either avoided or outgrew is what I find somewhat annoying.

Wumbo

04-29-2002, 10:39 AM

loved this ep. part 1, as well. symbolism, emotion, & campiness all at the same time. as someone said in an earlier post, this series has now hit its stride.

possible explanation as to why the flash couldn't or wouldn't vibrate free.

he was unconscious when he was frozen and we have no idea how long he was encased in ice before we saw him with his head sticking out. not seeing the STAS ep when he actually vibrated through ice, i'm not sure if being encased for so long would slow him down.
in the JLA comic, Batman stopped a Starro controlled Flash by drastically lowering the temperature
this would possibly also explain why he didn't vibrate through the rope. besides the fact that he was a couple hundred feet in the air, and with the Black Siren.

the ending of this ep was very strong and emotional. the JGA's sacrifice made me feel good and sad at the same time. what heroes! 5 stars!!!

Toddman

04-29-2002, 10:46 AM

I don't think the JL Flash can vibrate through solid material.

Now I know that everyone is going to point out the fact that he escaped from the big block of ice in "Speed Demons", but if you remember, there was a big hole in that block of ice after the Flash escaped. So, sure he vibrated his molocules, but it wasn't in order to pass through the ice. Instead, he vibrated enough to create friction and heat, and that's how he got out of the ice.

"Well, what about the handcuffs from 'Brave & the Bold' ?" you may ask. Well, who says he vibrated out of them? For a guy with superhuman speed, there must be at least a half dozen other ways to get out of a pair of handcuffs other than vibrating through them. For instance, he could have easily swiped the key at superspeed and simply unlocked them.

Having said all of that, it still doesn't explain why he didn't escape from Dr. Blizzard's block of ice in "Legends." For that, I have no explanation.

(And personally, I don't miss the whole "vibrating through solid objects" thing. I miss the WW's Lasso of Truth and I miss GL's ring constructs, but the vibrating I can live without.)

Also as far as the JGA being able to take down Ray more efficiently than the League... keep in mind that they had been a team for 40 years and had quite a bit of experience on their side. I think that the writers let them display some really good teamwork in just these two episodes. It was lot more than the JL have shown on most occasions.

And one other thing, the "Mutant Ray" look kinda reminded me of the Artie and Leech characters from Marvel's "X-Factor."

One other thing...

For all of those people that feel like the heroes should have attempted to talk to Ray before beating him into submission (which is what I think they did, I don't think they killed him), I agree.

And furthermore, that's just what they did. J'onn said, "Perhaps we should ask Ray." When Ray didn't fess up, J'onn calmly placed his hands on Ray's shoulders and revealed his true form. It was Ray then who struck first, not the good guys.

Toddman

MeAmBizzaro

04-29-2002, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

My thoughts:

Thinking of the JGA as the JSA negatively colored my impression of an otherwise fine pair of episodes. I felt like the high camp was an attempt to show how silly these old-time heroes were, heroes that I actually like and who weren't actually this silly.

Yes, there were silly elements to the Golden Age, but there are silly elements to the Modern Age. Personally, I think the Silver Age is the silliest age of all, what with the talking gorillas, invisible planes, and multiple shades of kryptonite. Focusing only on those is detrimental to taking the characters seriously... which is perhaps not a problem for the cartoon, since the JGA won't be seen again, but when the JGA conflates with the JSA in my mind, I feel that there has been a slight to the JSA.

Your feelings are exactly why the writers used the JGA instead of the JSA. If it helps, think of them as counterparts of the JSA from Earth (insert number here). Remember, as Tom Turbine has surmised, there are a number of infinite earths.

"Only they would commit such a heinous crime, and on a Sunday!" - The Streak

"I've got you old chum!" - Green Guardsman

"Perhaps you haven't heard, but here in Seabord City, crime doesn't pay!" - Tom Turbine

"Let justice prevail!" - JGA

Love it all...

Karkull

04-29-2002, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Mister Intensity
I believe Ray is supposed to be Brainwave.

Good call! I completely missed that.

Borg4of3

04-29-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Clayface

Well, I'm not quite sure what was "rude" about it. It was my honest reaction when I saw the episode. That is literally what I said when I watched it.

And I meant it in two ways. First, in regards to the freaky little kid. He changed, and that was my reaction. He seemed rather unimpressive, and I was disappointed that this was our "villian".
Second, that was my reaction to the entire episode. I just didn't get it, for whatever reason - be it my lack of background on the characters from the Golden Age, or my dislike of "camp". To me, it came across as camp (in a bad way), trite, and incredibly sappy. I didn't find it tragic, because frankly, I couldn't have cared less about the characters. Whatever the reason, I felt incredibly let down by the episode, and all I could think of after watching it was "what the heck was that" - I just didn't get it.

Alrighty - I can understand that. Its just when you take something that most (and I) consider great and seemingly blam it without much reason that I found it hostile or, in the worst way, flamebait. Its like dissing Over the Edge with a comment like, "Its easily one of the weakest episodes of the series" without explaining - comments like these almost demand a hostile response. But your reasoning I can accept with a graceful nod and back away in polite disagreement.

Well, maybe not just yet :p - For one, I don't think you need to know the background of the Golden Age to appreciate the episode. You have but to know the stereotypes the average joe has of superheroes (Holy Misconceptions, Batman!) to understand the joke. If you hate camp, this episode so overused 'camp' they completely insulted it! I think its best represented in the end by Flash and GL- you can get two things out of a story like this: One, hilarity out of the insanity of it all; and Two, a deep profound meaning about what it means to be a hero. Well, thats my piece, and I think I'm done.

Blight

04-29-2002, 12:41 PM

Okay, I know how much I bashed part 1, and the corny diologue still made me cringe, but part 2 mostly made up for the first part.

This episode was very touching. It really moved me when the JG sacrificed themselves, (for the secong time!) as did the ending. I nearly cried when The Streak gave that salute.

The only thing that really bothered me (besides the corny diologue) was that brain guy, who looked quite ridiculous.

Overall, this part was MUCH better than the first, and I give it 5 stars.

See ya!
Blight

Justice League 2000

04-29-2002, 12:59 PM

hello friends

it was a good episode JGA members were ghost all along that sad :( and the boy turn into a monster it creep me out. :eek:
but it was still a good episode and a it had sadness in it to.

Spaceman Spiff

04-29-2002, 01:40 PM

To those who feel that the JL shouldn't have tried stopping Ray, the world was only an illusion. And, as shown by the ice cream man, people were not exactly happy with the illusion. It's only purpose was to make Ray happier, at the expense of all others. I think the Justice League were just in ending the illusion.

In fact, my nitpick would probably be John's surprise at the presence of others. The earlier conversation with the ice cream man was evidence enough for that.

I half expected the JSA were going to be 5 real, "normal" people given the extreme treatment from Ray. Did anyone else, or was I the only one?

Maxie Zeus

04-29-2002, 01:50 PM

Aaargh! I missed the first 5 minutes (though apparently that wasn't important to the plot, except maybe for this controversy about Flash and the block of ice). But the VCR didn't kick in at all and so I'm really reluctant to weigh in on it until I can tape it next week and then view 1 and 2 as a whole.

But I will say I thought the ep was sensational and for the reasons most everyone has mentioned.

* A very deep and respectful understanding of what makes the GA heroes both cringe-inducing and intensely admirable. It's a lot like looking at your parents: you can't believe they're so lame, but you can't help but love and admire them, when you get right down to it. Fitting, too, since in a sense they were GL's "parents," at least ideals-wise.

* Small touches that didn't escape. GL's "Ladies first" line to HG was both ironic allusion to GG's earlier remark, and also far more apt, since she had just done something to warrant that kind of respect. The bookending attacks by giant robots was a delicious touch; in each case, this cliche superhero moment is meant to be a distraction from the real plot.

* I like Borg4of3's interpretation, that the final battle was simply the illusion's self-destruction. Like any lie, the illusion was full of hidden contradictions, and Ray's behavior at the end simply exposed them. It was in fact wrong of him to hide the nature of the true world, to trap the other survivors in a hideous childs-eye view of reality. Once the JGA, themselves part of the illusion, woke up to that fact, the illusion could only self-destruct.

More later. . .

JusticeLeagueLegion

04-29-2002, 01:51 PM

Great lines in this episode...I almost cried at the end when the JGA "died." It was a very moving episode.

Supreme

04-29-2002, 03:08 PM

I pretty much know something was up with Ray in part 1, but I had a different idea. I thought that he was a counterpart to Johnny Thunder, and he used the genie to recreate the wold and JGA.

And as far as you fanboys getting so upset about others' opinions: LIGHTEN UP! This is an open forum, so don't expect the Queen's rules of discussion/debate. If someone has an opinon that differs from yours, even if they don't explain it, let it go. If someone says "What the heck was that?", don't push the boundaries of what is "decent? language. Just be glad they're not swearing or posting porn pics, as some jerks on other boards sometimes do.

Dark Knight

04-29-2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Karkull

Originally posted by Mister Intensity
I believe Ray is supposed to be Brainwave.
Good call! I completely missed that.

I was wondering if he was supposed to be based on a real villain. Who's Brainwave, guys? I'm curious.

Toddman

04-29-2002, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Dark Knight

I was wondering if he was supposed to be based on a real villain. Who's Brainwave, guys? I'm curious.

For info on Brain Wave go here:http://www.execpc.com/~icicle/BRAINWAVE.html

And try the home page
http://www.execpc.com/~icicle/GAVILLCHK.html
for any info you might want on...

The Wizard (Sir Swami's counterpart)
Sportsmaster (The Sportsman's counterpart)
The Icicle (Dr. Blizzard's counterpart)
The Fiddler (Musicmaster's counterpart)

as well as a look at some JL villians featured this season

Solomon Grundy
The Shade
Ultra-Humanite
Vandal Savage

Toddman

Cere

04-29-2002, 04:33 PM

(though I'm still anxious about "Injustice For All")

This episode must be viewed as a whole. As a tribute to Golden Age comics (which I have never read), it starts out ridiculous and silly, making a mockery of the times. And it was hilarious, to think that superheros actually behaved like that!

Then, part 1 ends with a bang. It begins the descent into the real nature of the world.

Part 2 finishes the Injustice Guild storyline from last ep, with more campiness and great one-liners, but the scenes are intersperced with GL and Hawkgirl's investigation into the world. It started creeping me out. "What is going on?" I wondered. This episode had great suspense. I had no idea what was going to happen.

So, after the JG returns from victory (like Batman, Catman seems to have a penchant for defeating supervillain teams by himself), the real trouble begins. I never expected Ray as the villain (I admit, I've never watched Twilight Zone), and it struck me first as silly. But then he changed and instantly looked creepy. He was a great villain, a child unable to let go of the world lost and given to power to do so.

It was powerful to see the JG fighting "Ray". His own creations were attempting to destroy him, and I think that helped them bring him down. I don't know if he died or not, I could agree with either situation, but I wish they had told us. I was left wondering at the end just what happened to him.

That last scene between GL and Hawkgirl was touching, especially since they were at each other's throats in "War World". We saw a lot of GL's character in this ep, and so did Hawkgirl. I don't know if they'll become a couple (they're kinda different alien species), but I'd love to see them become close friends.

Now, a couple things in response to what others have said. I knew instantly in part 1 that GL could power the transporter. I think GL did too, since he went straight for it when the illusion was destroyed, but he didn't use it to leave at first for one simple reason: he didn't want to. He was meeting his childhood heros; he wasn't going to cut it short.

I hope they don't bring the JG back. That would take to point out of their sacrifice.

Why did those real people never age? Maybe they did. Perhaps they were children when the bomb dropped, and all too willing to go along with Ray's illusion at first. Then, when they grew up, Ray wouldn't let them escape.

Some people noted how J'onn put his arms in Ray's head. I think he was phasing into his mind to do something, and his arms appeared to turn solid when Ray "shocked" him. It may have been an animation mistake.

A small nitpick: when Hawkgirl saw the JG's graves, the Green Guardsman's was on the far left. Later, when GL looks at the graves, GG's is second from the left. And while I'm on the subject, why did Ray leave graves for them? Wouldn't he want to ignore the subject of their deaths?

All in all, this episode was the best yet. It had it all, comedy and drama. As a tribute, it showed us how silly they were, and also how, in the end, they were heros, willing to give their lives for justice.

I loved it.

Bob...SpongeBob

04-29-2002, 04:58 PM

posted by Cere As a tribute to Golden Age comics (which I have never read), it starts out ridiculous and silly, making a mockery of the times. And it was hilarious, to think that superheros actually behaved like that!

yes...I wasn't around then, or I was too little to remember, but my dad watched parts of the ep with me, and he thought it was great, and a good portrayal of the times that he lived in. I know next to nothing about that stuff, but even I got all of the justice-for-all, crime-doesn't-pay, eat-your-veggies, optimistic stuff. So, it proves you don't really need to be that knowleged about comics to get the messages out of this ep.

Knight

04-29-2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Toddman
One other thing...

For all of those people that feel like the heroes should have attempted to talk to Ray before beating him into submission (which is what I think they did, I don't think they killed him), I agree.

And furthermore, that's just what they did. J'onn said, "Perhaps we should ask Ray." When Ray didn't fess up, J'onn calmly placed his hands on Ray's shoulders and revealed his true form. It was Ray then who struck first, not the good guys.

Toddman

I was going to point that out also. Another poster had said the Justice League started the fight ,but It was Ray when he become angered that they had seen through his deception.

Nightwing

04-29-2002, 05:35 PM

I also think Flash was handled well in the episode. I noticed in the scene where he's trapped in ice, he didn't escape because he was asking what the villains plan was. Plus it might have been dangerous to do the vibrating trick so close to another person.

Now let's not take anything more from that other than our normal, calm and inquisitive discussion. :)

GothamGirl

04-29-2002, 06:26 PM

I only got to see the last 10 minutes of it. Oh well maybe looking foward to free comic book day will cheer me up. That and the fact they'll be playing it twice that day.

redDragon

04-29-2002, 07:30 PM

That was a great ep! Only gripe is Flash not vibrating through the ice.

"Driving an ice cream truck for 40 years. Now THAT'S a nightmare."

Great lines...some great lines.

And the red phone!!! the red phone!!

MAXIMUS

04-29-2002, 08:03 PM

I must say this ep did not really low my socks of. Was it any buissness of the JL to interfere with that universe? Sure some of the people had it bad, but its better then rebuilding an entire civilization. Come On! And that brain kid where did that come from? Oh and the ending with GL powering the thing at the end? WHY DIDNT HE DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Yeesh....

Chibi Kageboshi

04-29-2002, 08:11 PM

i just hope green lantern got some of the green guardsmen rubbed off on him and starts usingn his powers in a more creative way.

Knight

04-29-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by MAXIMUS
I must say this ep did not really low my socks of. Was it any buissness of the JL to interfere with that universe? Sure some of the people had it bad, but its better then rebuilding an entire civilization. Come On!

Yeah Im sure those people enjoyed being a slave to a mental case with a superhero fixation. Given the choice I wouldnt want to have to be a puppet for someone elses enjoyment .But thats just me.

murmur

04-29-2002, 11:00 PM

A detail that seems to have been forgotten: the JL did NOT know that any real people even existed in that world until after Jay was defeated. It was only then that they began to question what they just did.

And I fully agree with the point that was made about Ray being defeated by his own mind.

GL2k2

04-30-2002, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Chibi Kageboshi
i just hope green lantern got some of the green guardsmen rubbed off on him and starts usingn his powers in a more creative way.

I was thinking the same exact thing. Maybe we should see less of him in the coming season, and next season he comes off with the constructs.

DerekPowers

04-30-2002, 02:25 AM

DID ANYONE ELSE FIND THE ENDING A BIT OUT OF THE BLUE??

The kid turning into that monster was so sudden, it seemed really strange and not cohesive to the whole story.

ALSO, why did they beat the crap out of him? I know he was attacking them, but really, what did he do that was so terrible? he was just a kid trying to make their destroyed world a better one, even if it was an illusion.

I think they should have made it more apparent that the kid was only doing that because he loved the justice guild. i know gl said something like that, but that was after they ruffed him up.

I dont know, it was just strange. I wish they would have made the kid more of a victim than this freakish monster that the whole justice league AND guild had to destroy. Because when you think about it he was a victim and did what any other kid in his situation would have done.

HAVING SAID THAT, i really like this ep anyway. I thought i'd hate it once the kid transformed, but it wraped up really nicely w/ the Justice Guild sacrificing themselves, which i was hoping would happen! that was nice.

also, the animation and action sequences just keep getting better and better. I really loved them. this was a very good arc, but i still feel they could have handled the whole thing w/ the kid being a mutated monster alittle better.

also, the ending was a bit breif. anyone notice that? they didnt ease out of it w/ sad music or a touching line, it just kind of ended. well, those are my gripes, but hey, i still liked it. but i still dont understand why they made luthor a mystery villian in part one. oh well, peace.

FLIPMODE

04-30-2002, 04:32 AM

It's obviously plot gas why Flash could'nt Free himself from Rope Nor Ice. Even attached to the blimp, the Flash is able to free himself, grab Siren, and either Run UP the the Side of the blimp, or onto the nearest building.

Dont Believe me? Just look at how they animate him running in, Brave and the Bold, or S:TAs, or even the begginning of Legends Part 1, he could have run rings around the Blimp.

Plus I felt the story ran it'self into a whole, and I felt this PLOT that everyone want's to love so much, was a secondary thing. Nothing in Part one leads us to believe there is a problem with this city, to the exrent that they go to. No hint of the real villain. That does'nt make the episode good to me. Just in the Last 7 minutes, we get a taste of what is supposedly really going on. Well after seeing that, More questions arise. And it's not always good to have more questions than answers.

-I then wanted to see, just how Roy came to be what he is.
-I wanted to see how he took over the people of the planet!
-Now that the JL flexed their muscle in someone elses earth, what proper precautions did they take to make sure it would'nt happen again? They just left Roy lying on the floor. In 10 minutes, he can wake up, and there will be NO one to stop him. Well they probably did not incapacitate him further, because they had no right to intervene in the first place. Wrong or Right?
-Their initial reason to to stop Roy, was not to save the people they did'nt even know existed.
-Were the people just playing along out of fear...for 40 Years?? according to the Ice Cream Man. Is the kid THAT old?
-Why could'nt he control his OWN creations?? How can they possibly attack him?
-The Heores were not Heroes, it was ALL ROY. The JL should have acknowledged the fact that the goodness was in Roy, not the Fake heroes. They were just extensions of what Roy, believed, they did not save the Day...Roy did. By allowing them to defeat him. So again, he was just a troubled soul, There was no reason to villainize him, especially at the end of the confrontation.

With that said, Im Glad this was not the Real JSA. Because it would have been a Waste of characters. However I dont think we will get anything close to a real JSA Ep because of Legends. I'd trade a true JSA story within the JL series, over this arc any day.
Problem now is, GL said his hero was the Greenguardman, but he's Fictional to GL. So how will the Original GL, Wildcat, and Jay Garrick exist along side the JL, when they've allready met their alternate counterparts, who in actuality are just Fictional people??

It's too convoluted, too corny, and thus never will be done. So in the end, Im a bit piturbed that Legends was made.

Part 1 was good because it was more lay back, and let the characters just exist in their own enviroment. Comical.
Part 2 was not that great, because the plot was rushed and chaotic. Part 2 probably never should have taken that turn, Plus, the Characters should not have been, Comic book characters. That kills future stories for the JSA. Bluh.

Ultimatly they should have scrapped it, and made a real JSA story.

st63z

04-30-2002, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by The Green Hornet
oh my......

without a doubt the best episode-arc of JL ever.

An incredibly moving story, when i saw that newspaper headline that the JGA died in a NUCLEAR battle, and when Streak saluted goodbye and we saw the JGA with the golden light behind them...like a fading memory that can't remain. Time gone by that can never come again. Very sad.

in their honor

LET JUSTICE PREVAIL!!!!!!

Well put, one of the first of a long stream of insightful posts in this thread. I'm only sorry I haven't visited regularly (I'm dismayed to have just found out that there won't be any new JL for 2 months, but elated to hear CN is getting a brand new production of Big O 2). I did recently wax poetic on the Legends arc at Trek BBS though. :)

Anyways, great discussions all around (including valid critical viewpoints and counterpoints) -- everything I've been thinking, and more, gestated so articulately! Given the resource and time constraints, I believe Timm & Co. have made capable and adept decisions in producing the story arc (but still leaving a lot of things open-ended for varied interpretations on multiple levels).

Thoughtful analyses aside, I couldn't help but get swept up in the poignancy of the JGA's sacrifice... WOW. Definitely best JL arc to date (though I'd unfortunately missed a couple of them).

I'm also unsure of Roy's ultimate fate. Trying to interpret the nature and outcome of his battle with the JGA leads me to endless possible intricacies of the human psyche. Regardless, he's a sympathetic character, and I waffled on whether he got a raw deal (I suppose that whole world got a raw deal). It's the JL's nature and belief to want to get at the truth though, and they must have instinctive misgivings about the possible harm that this lie was causing (at this point, all they knew was that the real JGA had perished). It was only logical for them to at least confront Roy to find out the whole truth. True, GL was kinda harsh talking to the boy, but that's typical GL fashion (plus he must have felt a sense of outrage at this perceived mockery of his heroes). And I don't believe the JL was trying to kill Roy, they were simply responding to his attacks. In turn, the JGA was trying to stop him from killing the JL members (though they deduced that stopping him would most likely end the illusion).

And, I like the multifaceted development of GL and HG's close camaraderie. I won't mind one way or the other where this will lead to, but for now it's just so... nice (especially how Legends ended). But contrary to previous posts on the emotional aspects of females, I think our ol' softie, mellow-heart Supey could just as well provide the hugs and shoulder-to-cry-on (remember how warm and caring he was to J'onn?) :D

All in all, I'll echo the sentiment that this has been an *honest, unflinching* homage in the spirit of that original era/body of work and a loving tribute to Gardner F. Fox. Most everything from both eps (including all the little touches) carries off very well.

Toddman

04-30-2002, 10:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FLIPMODE

Plus I felt the story ran it'self into a whole, and I felt this PLOT that everyone want's to love so much, was a secondary thing. Nothing in Part one leads us to believe there is a problem with this city, to the exrent that they go to. No hint of the real villain. That does'nt make the episode good to me. Just in the Last 7 minutes, we get a taste of what is supposedly really going on. Well after seeing that, More questions arise. And it's not always good to have more questions than answers.

I have to disagree a little there, FLIPMODE. I thought that J'onn's visions of armegeddon and the revelation of the graves of the Justice Guild members was plenty to let us know that there was something very sinister lying beneath the surface of this seemingly idyllic world. Even Black Siren's "kitchen duty" and the Streak's backhanded compliment to GL seemed to suggest there were problems w/that world's retro-society and the heroes themselves.

-I then wanted to see, just how Roy came to be what he is.
-I wanted to see how he took over the people of the planet!
-Now that the JL flexed their muscle in someone elses earth, what proper precautions did they take to make sure it would'nt happen again? They just left Roy lying on the floor. In 10 minutes, he can wake up, and there will be NO one to stop him. Well they probably did not incapacitate him further, because they had no right to intervene in the first place. Wrong or Right?

That is indeed a valid point. Completely right.

-Their initial reason to to stop Roy, was not to save the people they did'nt even know existed.
-Were the people just playing along out of fear...for 40 Years?? according to the Ice Cream Man. Is the kid THAT old?
-Why could'nt he control his OWN creations?? How can they possibly attack him?
-The Heores were not Heroes, it was ALL ROY. The JL should have acknowledged the fact that the goodness was in Roy, not the Fake heroes. They were just extensions of what Roy, believed, they did not save the Day...Roy did. By allowing them to defeat him. So again, he was just a troubled soul, There was no reason to villainize him, especially at the end of the confrontation.

I think that by showing us that they could act independently of their creator (free will), we were given a great example of how Ray's heroes had a mind of their own. They weren't puppets. The goodness instilled in them may have come from Ray, but then so was the evil and danger of the Injustice Guild, the giant robot, etc.

As for "was Ray a threat or not?," well, he did force the citizens of Seaboard City (and the world?) to act against their will. Whether his intentions were good or not, he was still denying the people their freedom. And more than that, he was putting them all in potential danger w/the various menaces he created, all for the sake of his own amusement. I thought that the writers did a terrific job of presenting both sides of a true moral dilemma. Would I have liked for them to delve into it a little more? Sure, but it's only a half-hour show.

By the way, just because Ray assumed the form of a kid in his imaginary world, doesn't mean he actually was still a kid. Obviously, he was at least into his 40's. And I think it would be kind of hard to say he looked young for his age going by his "true" form.

Those are just my thoughts on the episode.

Toddman

SimonMoon5

04-30-2002, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Knight

I was going to point that out also. Another poster had said the Justice League started the fight ,but It was Ray when he become angered that they had seen through his deception.

That certainly wasn't me. What I've been saying is that after Ray started the fight, lashing out when his illusions were seen through, the heroes (if they actually are heroes; I wonder sometimes) should've tried talking.

For example, suppose a child of two years old with no special powers lashes out at you when you try to get him to eat some food. Obviously, you would have no choice but to fight him to the death, right? :confused:

Or suppose, you try to give your pet (cat, dog, whatever) a bath, and it rakes you with its claws. Your only recourse is to kill it, right?

Or are there other options that one could consider? Maybe I've been watching too many episodes of Xena, where she actually tries to talk her enemies out of doing bad things that they will regret. (Yes, I know you can't actually *talk* to a pet cat or dog, or whatever, but there are other ways to try to calm it down.)

Originally posted by DerekPowers
DID ANYONE ELSE FIND THE ENDING A BIT OUT OF THE BLUE??

I found it utterly predictable, actually.

The kid turning into that monster was so sudden, it seemed really strange and not cohesive to the whole story.

I agree that there was a certain lack of cohesion to the story. At the end of the first part, we know that someone (probably Jay) has recreated the world after it was destroyed and has resurrected the dead Justice Guild. At this point, the story should focus on clearing up this mystery, but instead we still have some irrelevant (to this part of the story) plot threads involving the Injustice Guild to deal with. Who cares what the Injustice Guild is doing at this point, when there's something much more important to deal with? (Yes, we had to see how the Flash escaped, but if the story had been written so that the villains were all captured in part one, then we could've more cleanly moved on the next part of the plot.)

ALSO, why did they beat the crap out of him? I know he was attacking them, but really, what did he do that was so terrible?

That's what I've been saying. Everyone's response has been, "Well, he attacked J'onn first. Therefore, he deserved to die."

Originally posted by FLIPMODE

Plus I felt the story ran it'self into a whole, and I felt this PLOT that everyone want's to love so much, was a secondary thing. Nothing in Part one leads us to believe there is a problem with this city, to the exrent that they go to. No hint of the real villain.

Actually, one of my complaints about this episode is that it was too darn obvious. J'onn's visions of the true destruction of the city and Hawkgirl's discovery of the graves are enough to tell the viewer that the world has really been destroyed, that the Justice Guild are really dead, and that the rest of the world is an illusion that only J'onn's telepathy can see through. Then, since we have seen only one named character in this world other than the Justice Guild and their villains, the obvious culprit has to be the kid.

-Now that the JL flexed their muscle in someone elses earth, what proper precautions did they take to make sure it would'nt happen again? They just left Roy lying on the floor. In 10 minutes, he can wake up, and there will be NO one to stop him. Well they probably did not incapacitate him further, because they had no right to intervene in the first place. Wrong or Right?

Well, that's assuming Ray's still alive, which is not necessarily the case. After the way the League committed genocide in Secret Origins, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the Guild killed Ray. Otherwise, the whole fight is pointless, since he'll just wake up and do it all all over again.

-Were the people just playing along out of fear...for 40 Years?? according to the Ice Cream Man. Is the kid THAT old?

I don't think it was just out of fear. I think Ray was controlling them to some extent.

-Why could'nt he control his OWN creations?? How can they possibly attack him?

Obviously, he had given them a certain amount of free will so that they could act as the real Guild would, without him having to dictate every action that they can take. And he didn't simply will them into nothingness due to his own psychological problems.

Crambam

04-30-2002, 11:23 AM

I'm glad I was able to find a board where there is good discussion of JLA.

I think I have a unique perspective on this episode. I was watching and actually reading the credits, when I noticed that the writer is someone I went to high school with. Last time I saw him was at the reunion, and he mentioned he was a writer in Hollywood, doing some X Files stuff, and even writing for the Simpsons. Given the fact that his name isn't John Smith, I know it's him.

I think that's a really cool accomplishment, and I wish him future success, and when the next reunion comes around, I will mention it.

As for the episode itself, despite that connection, I don't agree 100 percent with the general consensus. To me, this was no Apokolips Now! I loved part I, but I was let down a bit by part II.

I didn't even so much mind that the JGA sacrificed themselves. That was sad, but that wasn't my problem. For me, the big problem was that the JGA WAS an illusion.

The sacrifice loses something when it isn't the "real" characters. The "real" JGA didn't sacrifice themselves to stop Ray. They died years earlier.

Having this JGA be an illusion or a fake took something away from the episode.

That said, I already have an idea for a sequel that would work within the DC Universe, and might even tie in to the end of the JSA in the comics.

Suppose the JGA wasn't really dead? Suppose the tombstones were just unfilled graves, of a group of people thought to be killed in a nuclear war. Suppose in a heroic attempt to save his world, Streak sped up in a funnel, absorbing the radiation, and knocked the JGA to another universe, just like what happened to the JLA?

Or suppose like in the comics with the JSA, the JGA was recruited at the last second to engage in a fight for humanity, that has to repeat in a timeloop, in a vicious circle, where they never age, but never live their lives?

Though I believe that the lack of a real JGA hurt the episode, the fact that they weren't the real JGA certainly leaves the door open for another team up in the future.

Toddman

04-30-2002, 11:58 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SimonMoon5

That certainly wasn't me. What I've been saying is that after Ray started the fight, lashing out when his illusions were seen through, the heroes (if they actually are heroes; I wonder sometimes) should've tried talking.

For example, suppose a child of two years old with no special powers lashes out at you when you try to get him to eat some food. Obviously, you would have no choice but to fight him to the death, right? :confused:

Or suppose, you try to give your pet (cat, dog, whatever) a bath, and it rakes you with its claws. Your only recourse is to kill it, right?

If my dog had the power to alter reality, then maybe.

Okay, I know that was sarcastic, but c'mon...Ray wasn't a spoiled kid or disobedient pet, he was a freakin' super-villain! That's what you do to super-villains---you beat the crap out of them!

When I'm watching Batman, I don't want to see Batman give the Joker a timeout. I want to see him pull some cool junk out of his belt and administer some bat-justice!

JL is an action cartoon. The group tried the peaceful road w/Ray at first, and that's plenty for me. If I want to see characters settle their differences more maturely, I'll watch Sesame Street.

That's what I've been saying. Everyone's response has been, "Well, he attacked J'onn first. Therefore, he deserved to die."

I still don't think Ray was dead. He let out the obligitory "I'm-unconscious-but-still-alive-and-just-to-make-sure-all-the-parents-and-kiddies-know-it-this-is-for-you" sigh after he was lying on the ground defeated.

But you're right, if Ray is still alive that would seem to leave us with a major question mark about the story's resolution. But, sadly, such things are not uncommon when it comes to this series.

Toddman

Borg4of3

04-30-2002, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5

For example, suppose a child of two years old with no special powers lashes out at you when you try to get him to eat some food. Obviously, you would have no choice but to fight him to the death, right? :confused:

Or suppose, you try to give your pet (cat, dog, whatever) a bath, and it rakes you with its claws. Your only recourse is to kill it, right?

I don't know about you, but my dog doesn't have the power to encase a friend of mine in the floor and another two into the wall, as well as create an invinicible leggo robot that just blasted the ceiling apart. As Hawkgirl said, "There's a time for words, and there's a time for action," You're exaggerating your argument to make it sound valid, but Ray proved himself easily to be a threat right from the start.

I found it utterly predictable, actually.

I've watched 24 from the start, and I've come to expect the unexpectable there. In my opinion, the Ray/Brainwave thing was a big surprise worthy of that show.

I agree that there was a certain lack of cohesion to the story. At the end of the first part, we know that someone (probably Jay) has recreated the world after it was destroyed and has resurrected the dead Justice Guild. At this point, the story should focus on clearing up this mystery, but instead we still have some irrelevant (to this part of the story) plot threads involving the Injustice Guild to deal with. Who cares what the Injustice Guild is doing at this point, when there's something much more important to deal with? (Yes, we had to see how the Flash escaped, but if the story had been written so that the villains were all captured in part one, then we could've more cleanly moved on the next part of the plot.)

First of all, try thinking of the episode as a whole instead of two parts. Secondly, the juxtaposition of GL and Hawkgirl's detective work with the final JG/IG showdown was meant to change the mood from insanely hilarious to downright creepy. ...Throbbing vein... And the fact that you realized that something more important was going on in the GL scenes meant the creators were doing their job. It took the focus away from the showdown and to the truth at hand. I really don't think thats a bad thing.

ALSO, why did they beat the crap out of him? I know he was attacking them, but really, what did he do that was so terrible?

Another the thing the writers did great: They made you feel for the Ray character. Nuff said.

That's what I've been saying. Everyone's response has been, "Well, he attacked J'onn first. Therefore, he deserved to die."

Before the controversial battle, GL said, "Its over, Ray," - not "Time to die, Ray," He meant the illusion, the falsehood, the obvious wrongness and whatever hidden agenda Ray must have had.

Then, since we have seen only one named character in this world other than the Justice Guild and their villains, the obvious culprit has to be the kid.

Actually, my money was on Lex Luthor. And Ray wasn't the only named character - what about O'Shonasay?

-Now that the JL flexed their muscle in someone elses earth, what proper precautions did they take to make sure it would'nt happen again? They just left Roy lying on the floor. In 10 minutes, he can wake up, and there will be NO one to stop him. Well they probably did not incapacitate him further, because they had no right to intervene in the first place. Wrong or Right?

Restating my opinion: Ray is dead and the populace is happy and are ready to rebuild on their own.

Well, that's assuming Ray's still alive, which is not necessarily the case. After the way the League committed genocide in Secret Origins, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the Guild killed Ray. Otherwise, the whole fight is pointless, since he'll just wake up and do it all all over again.

Genocide? Thats how you see it?
BUSH: Alright, the terrorists attacked us, but if we retaliate, we'll be commiting genocide.

If there was ever a reason to fight back and do as much damage as possible - Secret Origins was it.

And I still think Ray is dead, by his own hand/brain/whatever

Verdiboy

04-30-2002, 12:46 PM

I wasnt too big a fan of this story. I understand its all about golden age heroes and all that jazz, but i still place it as the least entertaining JL story yet.

I think its funny that alot of people bash JL for having corny or un authentic emotions in past shows but the dialogue from the Justice Guild is seen as enjoyable.

oh well,
Brian

LOL, and by the way, why was Batman just hanging out at the watchtower at the end of the episode. If he is only available for emergencies, that seems out of character.

stwasm

04-30-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by GL2k2

I was thinking the same exact thing. Maybe we should see less of him in the coming season, and next season he comes off with the constructs.

I must respectfully disagree about the ring constructs. Remember, how campy everything is this world was? I think the ring constructs are part of the campiness. Plus, John is not that type of person. He's a no-nonsense military type that wants to get the job done without a lot of cuteness. John's use of the ring is fine. That's like arguing why a basketball player does a lay-up instead of dunking the ball. Both ways give his team two points. There are no style points. Give John a break!

MattL.

04-30-2002, 01:27 PM

Most of the response to this ep has been extremely positive and rightfully so.

So what the hell is Anthony Garritano's problem?

The Green Hornet

04-30-2002, 02:01 PM

So what the hell is Anthony Garritano's problem?

hes probably some Gambit/Wolverine/Punisher/Anti-hero loving person who couldn't appreciate what TRUE heroes are or what they stand for if he wanted to

Supreme

04-30-2002, 02:53 PM

A few points:

1. I agree with the post a few up. Ray let out the "I'm still alive" sigh after being defeated, so I don't think he's dead.

2. He was an adult, since J'onn said something along the lines of "..so he recreated heroes from his choldhood"

3. If he is alive, I don't think he will cause any more trouble, as J'onn assessed that his powers were burnt out.

4. I don't think that the heroism of the JGA is a reflection of Ray's heroism. He seemed to have the power to make things "the way they were". Just as he wasn't an architect, auto mechanic or biologist, most of his creations relied on wish fulfillment rather than consciously dictating how things/people were constructed.

5. The characters are no longer fictional, since the whole parallel earths/psychic ability of comic writers thing explains them.

Bud 'n Lou

04-30-2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Verdiboy
I think its funny that alot of people bash JL for having corny or un authentic emotions in past shows but the dialogue from the Justice Guild is seen as enjoyable.

The difference is that in this episode, the campy dialogue was intentional (MOST of the time anyway. As I pointed out in the talkback for part one, it had it's share of corny lines that weren't intended to be, such as Hawkgirl's, "Who would create a monstrosity like that?"). It's satire. However, in past episodes, the dialogue was cheesy in cases where the tone was supposed to be much darker.

SolomonGrundy

04-30-2002, 06:02 PM

i liked it, except for the fact that the real villian was that mutated kid, i think it should have been a real villian, or a similarity to one like the justice guild was to the justice league
still good though :cool:

DerekPowers

04-30-2002, 06:28 PM

everyone makes very valid points. i really liked this arc, but i still have to say the second half of part 2 was very dis-jointed and left a lot to be desired, in terms of more explaination.

besides from making ray a freakish monster w/ no feelings, I'm surprised no one has commented yet on GL being able to power that transporter all of a sudden. NOW THAT WAS A COP-OUT!!

i was like, oh geez, well why didnt he just do that from the start??? like, whaaaa????? that was too simple and too much of a cop-out. the writers made the story too complicated and non-cohesive at the end that there were ALOT of things left un said, and obviously the little matter of getting home was overlooked.

actually, the whole time i was thinking that somehow either ray would use his powers in the end to help the JL or some kind of radation from the disaster would power the transporter, but no, we get a cop-out (sort of like in war world when hawkgirl stops that big canon from blowing up the planet w/ on swift electric mace hit, but even more of a cop out).

again, i really liked this ep, but there were a lot of problems with it. peace.

Knight

04-30-2002, 07:01 PM

Is there any reason why some people keep refeering to RAY as ROY? I've seen this several times.

Also I dont think The Justice League had anything to do with Ray's death/defeat or whatever you want to call it because they were clearly out of the action. Ray had already taken down the League. I liken Rays defeat to "Fight Club" where Ed Nortons character is fighting his imaginary self and getting his but kicked because hes so out of it he cant control it.

Bud 'n Lou

04-30-2002, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
everyone makes very valid points. i really liked this arc, but i still have to say the second half of part 2 was very dis-jointed and left a lot to be desired, in terms of more explaination.

besides from making ray a freakish monster w/ no feelings, I'm surprised no one has commented yet on GL being able to power that transporter all of a sudden. NOW THAT WAS A COP-OUT!!

i was like, oh geez, well why didnt he just do that from the start??? like, whaaaa????? that was too simple and too much of a cop-out. the writers made the story too complicated and non-cohesive at the end that there were ALOT of things left un said, and obviously the little matter of getting home was overlooked.

actually, the whole time i was thinking that somehow either ray would use his powers in the end to help the JL or some kind of radation from the disaster would power the transporter, but no, we get a cop-out (sort of like in war world when hawkgirl stops that big canon from blowing up the planet w/ on swift electric mace hit, but even more of a cop out).

again, i really liked this ep, but there were a lot of problems with it. peace.

Ya know, you're right. I knew there was something that bugged me a little bit about the ending. I did think it was a little off that they made Ray attack the League. I didn't think it was necessary for the writer to do that. It just seems a bit like an excuse to end the episode with another cool action sequence.
Here's how I think it could've been altered:
I think it would've been better if they cut that fight at the end out, but left in the fight with the big robot that Ray called as a distraction. As they questioned Ray more and more intensely, he could conjure up a whole series of similar distractions in more and more feeble attempts to maintain the facade of his dream world. But I don't think he should ever have attacked the League directly. Eventually, Ray would cave in and admit that he was creating this illusion. Then we could get a more in-depth explanation of the things that happened, like Ray's fascination and idolization of the Justice Guild, the war that destroyed the world, the tragic deaths of the Guild members when they heroically tried to stop the war, and how Ray was effected by the nuclear fallout to get his powers. In the aftermath, they could've played up Ray's extreme mental illness, while not making him violent, or a villain, and played up the Guild's corniness some more, which in light of this new information would now come across as very creepy, since they are nothing more than the memories of a long dead group of people from an insane person's mind. Ray would be a bit wary of the League, now that they know his secret, but again, he wouldn't be violent. Instead, he'd be anxious for them to leave him alone and stop disrupting his re-created world, and make it so that Tom magically comes up with a power source to send the League home so they would finally stop interfering and let him play. If done right, I think they could've gotten across the same emotions with this concept as they wished to get across with their original one, while avoiding some of the problems others have pointed out.
Still, I really liked this episode a lot. It remains to be my favorite one so far. I'm just pointing out a few ways I think it could've been even better.

FLIPMODE

04-30-2002, 07:59 PM

5. The characters are no longer fictional, since the whole parallel earths/psychic ability of comic writers thing explains them.

That only explained why they Existed on their OWN planet. But on the Real earth that Green Lantern and Batman come from, The JGA are still Very Fictional.

I have to disagree a little there, FLIPMODE. I thought that J'onn's visions of armegeddon and the revelation of the graves of the Justice Guild members was plenty to let us know that there was something very sinister lying beneath the surface of this seemingly idyllic world.** Even Black Siren's "kitchen duty" and the Streak's backhanded compliment to GL seemed to suggest there were problems w/that world's retro-society and the heroes themselves.

I agree with the first half of that explination. But as for Black Siren and the social veiw of GL in THAT world, I think it was just part of the scenery. I took it as, :that's just the phase that they are at in their world, theres no universal guarantee for people to not be racist or sexist. Our earth has and still is going through phases of civilization. I just figured, that they are currently in a "50's like" era. And that also, was such a Huge leap in the episode in terms of depth, that they should have stuck to it (IMO) and dealt with the heroes and the time. And how things get done, in comparison to then and now. if the Plot did'nt turn, this would be a JSA episode, well, probably without the remark to GL, only because I can See DC wanting to keep JSA's image clean and current. AS they do have a Current book out.

But I think the remark to GL, had less to do with Ray's influence, that's pretty much what forms of media portryed in those times.

I think that by showing us that they could act independently of their creator (free will), we were given a great example of how Ray's heroes had a mind of their own. They weren't puppets

True, but it only emphisized a plot hole.
When there really should not have been a threat of JGA fighting their creator. And the BOLDEST thing that happened to make me feel this way, (and im not nitpicking, this happened in SEQUENCE of events in the show)was that he clearly Created a Robot in the Last scene. Meaning it just appeared. Based on others views one can assume that the Injustice guild was acting out of Free will to rob people, yet was the Robot acting out of Free will? I dont think so. So as a result, why would the IGA, or JGA be acting out of free will? Ray had the power to zap them in and Out of Existence, through his own Free will. Just as he did with the robot.

So I definitly get what was trying to be conveyed. But I think it's one of those things where one person falls for it, and the other is unhappy with the events. For Some it works, for me it's just another episode with bigger holes than they needed.

And yet at the same time, I dont think it's a tossup of debate, to the point of Intrigue, it's more on the level of: "is it a well made story?, or a poor one?"

A good Topic I found to be one of intrigue where others and Myself had argued to no end about was: "In the film the Matrix, Was Neo the chosen one by fate, destiny, and and by way of what the Oracle let him and the others know? Or was Neo's idea of Making your own Destiny the true savior? No matter which side you were on, both felt the films plot stood up on it's own.

I dont see Legends that way. I would'nt go so far to say it was poor, but It definitly was not the greatest, Imo.

scarface_74

04-30-2002, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Chibi Kageboshi
i just hope green lantern got some of the green guardsmen rubbed off on him and starts usingn his powers in a more creative way.

I thought that was the best argument against GL using "more creative" constructs. It was cheesy.

Cere

04-30-2002, 09:16 PM

A response to what some people have said:

DerekPowers, GL didn't use the ring to power the transporter at first because he didn't want to leave. He was meeting his childhood heros! He was going to spend as much time with them as he could. And, when the illusion was gone, he went straight for the transporter.

Bud 'N' Lou, an interesting alternate ending, but it would not have brought across the same points. We wouldn't have seen the JG's sacrifice, which showed that, even though they were super-cheesy, they still were heros. And, it would pain my heart to see Ray still living in a dream world. It's not good for people, no matter how psychically powered, to live in a fantasy. They have to face the real world.

FLIPMODE, I think the free will issue can be looked at this way: Ray created characters. The JG were heros who stood for good, the IG were villains who wanted to cause evil, and the robot was a piece of machinery that doesn't have free will to begin with.

SimonMoon5

04-30-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Knight
Is there any reason why some people keep refeering to RAY as ROY? I've seen this several times.

Probably because Ray Thompson = Roy Thomas.

Bud 'n Lou

04-30-2002, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Cere
Bud 'N' Lou, an interesting alternate ending, but it would not have brought across the same points. We wouldn't have seen the JG's sacrifice, which showed that, even though they were super-cheesy, they still were heros. And, it would pain my heart to see Ray still living in a dream world. It's not good for people, no matter how psychically powered, to live in a fantasy. They have to face the real world.

In the version I explained, you WOULD see their sacrifice in the flashback of the war. It wouldn't be the same as them sacrificing themselves for the Justice League, but Green Lantern could have still grown attached to the Guild, and would still have a sense of sorrow learning that they were only illusions the entire time. Also, if Ray were the only survivor, he should be able to do as he pleases, since his actions wouldn't be affecting anyone else. It wouldn't be the League's place to force him to stop what he was doing. It was a bit looney to create a dream world like he did (although, if I were in his position, I'm not so sure I'd do things any different), but it made him happy, and it would be a lot better than roaming around in the rubble for the rest of his short life.
Anyway, that's just my opinion.

The Green Hornet

04-30-2002, 10:53 PM

i was like, oh geez, well why didnt he just do that from the start??? like, whaaaa????? that was too simple and too much of a cop-out. the writers made the story too complicated and non-cohesive at the end that there were ALOT of things left un said, and obviously the little matter of getting home was overlooked.

GL's ring is powered by WILL right?

the JGA's sacrifice fueled his will to produce enough power to make the machine work

DarkLantern

05-01-2002, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Mister Intensity
I believe Ray is supposed to be Brainwave.

Mister Intensity

You are indeed correct, sir (as those who have decoded my “Junior Justice Guild” message have found out). It’s not just because both Ray and Brain are big-headed dwarfs with mental powers that can cast illusions. Ray actually referred to himself as “Brainwave” in the original script. The line was obviously omitted when the JL team couldn’t use the JSA characters.

And now you know.

The Dark Lantern

Cere

05-01-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Bud 'n Lou

In the version I explained, you WOULD see their sacrifice in the flashback of the war.

Good point. I didn't catch that.

Toddman

05-01-2002, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by FLIPMODE

I agree with the first half of that explination. But as for Black Siren and the social veiw of GL in THAT world, I think it was just part of the scenery. I took it as, :that's just the phase that they are at in their world, theres no universal guarantee for people to not be racist or sexist. Our earth has and still is going through phases of civilization. I just figured, that they are currently in a "50's like" era. And that also, was such a Huge leap in the episode in terms of depth, that they should have stuck to it (IMO) and dealt with the heroes and the time. And how things get done, in comparison to then and now. if the Plot did'nt turn, this would be a JSA episode, well, probably without the remark to GL, only because I can See DC wanting to keep JSA's image clean and current. AS they do have a Current book out.

But I think the remark to GL, had less to do with Ray's influence, that's pretty much what forms of media portryed in those times.

I wasn't trying to imply that Ray's personal views were reflected in the Streak's attitude, but I can see how my remarks may have come across that way.

What I was trying to say was that the world that Ray created seemed quaint and pure and like a refreshing return to simpler times. But we were reminded that those "simpler times" also had an ugly side.

Now if that world was indeed still living in the late 1950's, I could see your point about it just being a sign of the times. But that world wasn't the 50's/60's, it was today, and I think the pure whitebread views of that society (and the heroes) was meant to be a little unsettling.

True, but it only emphisized a plot hole.
When there really should not have been a threat of JGA fighting their creator. And the BOLDEST thing that happened to make me feel this way, (and im not nitpicking, this happened in SEQUENCE of events in the show)was that he clearly Created a Robot in the Last scene. Meaning it just appeared. Based on others views one can assume that the Injustice guild was acting out of Free will to rob people, yet was the Robot acting out of Free will? I dont think so. So as a result, why would the IGA, or JGA be acting out of free will? Ray had the power to zap them in and Out of Existence, through his own Free will. Just as he did with the robot.

So I definitly get what was trying to be conveyed. But I think it's one of those things where one person falls for it, and the other is unhappy with the events. For Some it works, for me it's just another episode with bigger holes than they needed.

And Cere stated my feelings exactly about the "characters" that Ray created. The heroes and villians had a certain amount of free will, otherwise they would have been nothing more than puppets on a string, which they obviously weren't. The good guys acted like good guys, the bad guys acted like bad guys, and the giant robot acted like a giant robot. But the point of the story was that Ray made his creations too perfect. In the end, they saw the true threat to their world, and even though they knew it would mean their "lives," their heroic nature was too strong.

It's a fairly classic idea used in fiction and sci-fi in particular. How many stories have there been where "Android X" resists his programming and sacrifices his existance in order to "protect the humans"? Heck, even Darth Vader did it in Return of the Jedi.

The only weak points I found to the story was Ray's ambiguous fate and GL's convenient fix for their way home. But that had nothing to do with the portrayal of Ray or the JGA.

Toddman

Wumbo

05-02-2002, 10:58 AM

after re-watching legends last night, i felt that i should comment on something.

people have posted that the JL just attacked Ray without cause, but that is not the case. MM calmly stated that they should speak with Ray regarding thier world being an illusion. he placed his hand on Ray's shoulder and ended his "Ray kid" illusion. Quasimodo Ray then blasted MM across the room and began freaking out. then his giant robot creation tore the roof from the building, apparently to attack the JL. after all, the robot was across town moments earlier causing chaos. when the JL exposed Ray, the robot appeared outside the JGA headquarters ready to fight. Ray easily defeated the JL and was "strangling" (for lack of a better term) GL when the JGA noticed and decided to stop him, no matter what the outcome was for themselves.

i also think that Ray is dead. but not by the JL's collective hands.
by his creation's hands, when they saw him crossing the line to the "dark side". leaving his fate uncertain to the viewers may have been a way to avoid the stigma of outright killling on the show.

wonderfly

05-02-2002, 03:00 PM

I love some of the thoughts some of you have had about this episode. Even though you're disagreeing with each other, you're all stating your case very well!

quote:
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Originally posted by MAXIMUS
I must say this ep did not really low my socks of. Was it any buissness of the JL to interfere with that universe? Sure some of the people had it bad, but its better then rebuilding an entire civilization. Come On!
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And then someone replied:

Yeah Im sure those people enjoyed being a slave to a mental case with a superhero fixation. Given the choice I wouldnt want to have to be a puppet for someone elses enjoyment .But thats just me.

quote:
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Originally posted by SimonMoon5

For example, suppose a child of two years old with no special powers lashes out at you when you try to get him to eat some food. Obviously, you would have no choice but to fight him to the death, right?

Or suppose, you try to give your pet (cat, dog, whatever) a bath, and it rakes you with its claws. Your only recourse is to kill it, right?
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(that last quote made me laugh for 5 minutes when I first read it)

And then Borg4of3 replied:

I don't know about you, but my dog doesn't have the power to encase a friend of mine in the floor and another two into the wall, as well as create an invinicible leggo robot that just blasted the ceiling apart. As Hawkgirl said, "There's a time for words, and there's a time for action,"

quote:
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Well, that's assuming Ray's still alive, which is not necessarily the case. After the way the League committed genocide in Secret Origins, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the Guild killed Ray. Otherwise, the whole fight is pointless, since he'll just wake up and do it all all over again.
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And then Borg4of3 replied:

Genocide? Thats how you see it?
BUSH: Alright, the terrorists attacked us, but if we retaliate, we'll be commiting genocide.

If there was ever a reason to fight back and do as much damage as possible - Secret Origins was it.

I couldn't agree more Borg. Hmmm, that last couple of quotes weren't funny. But they made me think about that "Secret Origins" episode more...

:) :D

Maxie Zeus

05-02-2002, 05:03 PM

So, people are talking about GL just needing the "willpower" to power Tom Turbo's machine. Maybe I just still had J'onn's Wizard of Oz-referencing line "I don't think we're in Metropolis anymore" echoing in my head at the end of part 2. Anyway, to the question "How do we get home now?" I expected Flash to sarcastically answer, "Click our heels together three times and say 'There's no place like home'?" (And is it me, or did mutant-Ray look a bit like the Wizard's "giant head" disguise?)

Probably that's why the ending didn't bother me. GL's ring does work on willpower, and (as in Oz) they just had to want to get home badly enough. I'm sure it could have been set up better, but it didn't bother me.

Anubis C. Soundwave

05-03-2002, 01:02 AM

...when I was watching this part unfold. Both this ep and Big O had a cataclysmic Event occuring 40 years ago.... [/toonami fandom]

This episode was great. My DC comic collection is limited to two copies of Batman: MotP made into a comic, so I simply plugged in Superfriends and Adam West Batman. [also think of G1 Transformers(I'm a fan! <-- look at avatar of G1 robot)/Thundercats cheese]Works.

And...decoder rings! :D Ph33r the decoder rings. GL's ring disappeared just like the reality did. Consistency in theme is key.

I can't wait to get the ep on tape in WIDESCREEN Saturday night. :)

Faboo. :wakko:

JTurner954

05-04-2002, 11:07 PM

Ok, after missing it last week I finally saw Part 2 tonight. Wow, it was good to see that it wasn't the predictable "JGA was an illusion or all evil" that this could of been if put in the wrong hands. I gave it four stars, a half star less than what I gave Part 1.

I am surprised that so many people were nitpicking so many things. Regarding the whole ice thing, if Flash were to be free, how would he get the JGA member on safe ground (remember she can't fly, sorry I don't remember her name)? I don't try to look for minor details (small inaccuracies I easily overlook), I just absorb what I watch and enjoy it as a result.

Although I was disappointed with the JGA's departure, I accepted it and was still able to enjoy the episode. Sad yes, but not enough for me to cry (I was surprised to hear that people were actually crying).

I slightly like Gorilla City Part 2 more than Legends Part 2. Legends proves once again why more DVD's of Justice League needs to be mad (imagine a commentary track on this episode).

Batman49

05-05-2002, 12:14 AM

Damn that episode was great!!! I missed the episode last week because I was a Godfather to my younger cousin for his confirmation last Sunday and damn if I didn't miss the best episode yet!! Last week I gave part one a 4.5 stars but this episode and the story as a whole gets 5 stars. I can't wait to watch it again at 10 pm tonight (I'm on the west coast by the way). I must say that I was brought to tears the way the JGA sacaficed themselves and how hard Green Lantern took it. I can't say much more that hasn't already been said.

This episode made me grab some of my Golden and Silver Age trades and read them all over again. I may prefer modern comics but damn if the Golden and Silver age didn't produce some damn fine stories also. I had a certain afinity for them before but with this episode, I've grown to love them even more.

SirLemming

05-05-2002, 12:53 AM

Last Sunday I taped it, but for some reason there was no audio -- just static.

So today, immediately after my SAT ended at 12:15, I rushed over to my grandma's house (she lives right by the school and my parents were out of town) and watched it!

This is Justice League.

The standard has been set. The first part was full of laughs, but this was more serious so it could tie up the story. And it really was executed better than any other episode so far. I think the main difference here is that there's a lot more "down-time," which is exactly what I've wanted. Actually, the first episode consisted primarily of down-time. It set up the plot nicely with little clues that don't seem like clues. I don't know how anyone thought it was predictable; I had no idea what was going on until it happened. I had no idea Ray would be an evil mutant (seriously, how DO you predict that?). I also assumed that JGA would be evil villains who would suddenly act all sinister and try to take over the world, but thankfully that wasn't the case.
This story arc seemed like a mini-movie, but in a good way. All the other episodes have seemed to bite off more than they could chew. Always some villain trying to destroy the world, leaving no time for anything but running around fighting things. While this episode still had a pretty epic feel, it was more focused on a particular plot.
As for "touching," I've wasn't exactly overwhelmed (like Batman Beyond's "Meltdown" later on in the day) -- but I mean, it's not like they TRIED to overwhelm you. It was touching enough, I think. What's important is that it was done right. And Green Lantern actually pointed out the foolishness of him getting upset over people who were never real, which added a good sense of self-awareness and "intelligence" to it.

Overall, I hope to see more episodes like this one!

And hopefully when Paul Dini comes along this episode will seem like garbage!

Squall

05-05-2002, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by Clayface
My reaction? "What the heck was that?"

Eh. I didn't care for the first part of this story arc, and the second one didn't impress me either. The big-headed freak was kinda lame.

That's exactly how I reacted to this episode! I've never cared for alternate reality adventures anyway, in any universe (whether it be the Dini/Timm DC Universe, the Star Trek Universe, etc.) Forget this cornball Golden Age stuff -- give me the Dini/Timm DC Universe any day! I hope from now on the JL stays in THEIR reality.

Borg4of3

05-05-2002, 02:56 AM

A few of the past comments helped me remember another layer and another theme that this story brings up. Its not simply a tribute to the Golden Age, but to comics, and fiction in general. Isn't it, as GL put it, "stupid" of us to care so much about fictional characters? I mean, its not like they're real or anything, right? Still, real or not, they provide us with entertainment, with insight, and with a way to define the things around us. I think this also explains why it was partially necessary for the JGA to be 'illusions' as well.

Still, Black Siren was a hottie :p

ADD: Oh, and another explanation of Flash's nitpick - In Legends p1, we saw him having fun with the corny dialogue. Maybe he just wanted to play the averge theatre-goer and watch the 'movie' instead of interfere.

Knight

05-05-2002, 12:32 PM

Did anyone notice how totally inaffective Gl's ring and Hawkgirls (deathray destroying ) mase were against Ray's forcefield.Yet Catman and Black Siren are able to atleast make Ray bounce around by hitting and kicking it

Ed Liu

05-05-2002, 12:47 PM

Howdy,

Originally posted by Knight
Did anyone notice how totally inaffective Gl's ring and Hawkgirls (deathray destroying ) mase were against Ray's forcefield.Yet Catman and Black Siren are able to atleast make Ray bounce around by hitting and kicking it

After re-watching the episode last night, I think that actually makes more sense to me now. Ray says to the JL that he controls the world there; he "decides who wins and who loses." I think if GL mustered enough willpower, he could have done damage to Ray. Or if he had slightly more imagination than to keep blasting him with tiny little green rays that were doing nothing.

The thing is, the JGA were Ray's "creations." I think the world works like The Matrix -- Ray has final control over the world, but doesn't micromanage the individuals in it.

Combine these 2 ideas and you see why Ray got beaten by the JGA. Ray's artificial JGA reacted the way the real JGA would have. The key point is that the JGA always wins. If Ray defeated them, he'd be destroying his own childhood heroes as well as violating the hard and fast rules that he grew up with. If he let them win, as they should, then his world, as he knew it, would end. Ray's own cognitive dissonance over the outcome was what defeated him, not any single punch or kick from a JGA member.

I think Borg4of3 suggested this base idea earlier. I'm just expanding on it is all.

I also had an alternate thought. If Ray is not dead, maybe that dimensional gateway that they found in the basement of the old JGA headquarters is a just another construct Ray fabricated to get the JL out of his hair (well, you know what I mean). Once they're gone, he can wake up and re-create the world exactly as he wanted it again. It also means the JL can re-visit again.

Borg4of3 also just mentioned one other point about the episode worth noting, that being GL's line about "Why should I care? They weren't even real." I guess I'm just ripping off all of Borg4of3's ideas today...

-- Ed/Ace

Borg4of3

05-05-2002, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound

Combine these 2 ideas and you see why Ray got beaten by the JGA. Ray's artificial JGA reacted the way the real JGA would have. The key point is that the JGA always wins. If Ray defeated them, he'd be destroying his own childhood heroes as well as violating the hard and fast rules that he grew up with. If he let them win, as they should, then his world, as he knew it, would end. Ray's own cognitive dissonance over the outcome was what defeated him, not any single punch or kick from a JGA member.

Uh... yeah! Thats what I was trying to say! Except you put it much more eloquently.

*Runs off to find a dictionary* :p

Salvor

05-06-2002, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Clayface
My reaction? "what the heck was that?"

Eh. I didn't care for the first part of this story arc, and the second one didn't impress me either. The big-headed freak was kinda lame.

wow I pop in pretty late in this thread... just wanted to say I agree, I thought the villain was really lame (some kindda shabby Akira ripoff) , and the whole sacrifice/parallel post-nuclear world thing had been so overused in so many cartoons and movies I was just crying out loud for it to stop :yawn:

I actually enjoyed the first episode because it was meant to be corny but this one wasn't... and was even cornier than the first part! Especially the really poor dialogue and the line "that's why the comic books stopped being published!" (ahhhh)... lol that line gave a good laugh.

I'm starting to wonder why I plug away at watching the show...

Cere

05-07-2002, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Squall

That's exactly how I reacted to this episode! I've never cared for alternate reality adventures anyway, in any universe (whether it be the Dini/Timm DC Universe, the Star Trek Universe, etc.) Forget this cornball Golden Age stuff -- give me the Dini/Timm DC Universe any day! I hope from now on the JL stays in THEIR reality.
Interesting viewpoint. Personally, I like the alternate-universe ideas. I don't want a season full of them, but one good one here and there are nice. It just goes to show how people's opinions can vary. To each his/her own.

Drachentöter

01-04-2003, 01:17 PM

Five Stars!

Definitely one of my top five and I think third best overall. While several other episodes are campy and ridiculous inadverdently, this one really jumped right in and it provided for some of the best lines!

Yes, the battle at the beginning has got to be one of the best choreographed in the season. And I liked the teamwork aspect, it looks that the JL is learning how to work like a unit. One question: How did Luthor escape from jail? Again?

Tom Turbine: In Seaboard City...Crime. Doesn't. Pay.

The Streak: You're quick, son. But villany can never outrun justice!

I LOVED the JGA. They're my favorite guest stars. It's good that they parodied some of the big five (Superman, Batman, GL, Flash) and a parody of Black Canary works better than one of Wonder Woman. But I'm also confused as to why they didn't use the canary cry...Well, I suppose when they wrote the script they still weren't sure if they were using JSA members or not.

Dr. Blizzard: Forgive me if I give you the cold shoulder.

I liked the Injustice Guild too. It's nice to see a team of villains meant to be campy act campy as opposed to the Injustice Gang who were just never threatening. Hell, the Injustice Guild actually captured TWO heroes--and creatively too!

This is a great episode and one I don't mind to see over and over and over...

Yes, this part is more serious than the first, but to me it doesn't come off as corny. This is where the homage stuff really kicks in and it's nice to see that animation still remembers its roots.

Green Lantern and Hawkgirl. Hmm...If I hadn't seen Savage Time, I'd dismiss it as fanpeople blowing things up to ridiculous proportions, but I'm not so sure anymore. It's obvious Hawkgirl is GL's best friend. In every single one of his spotlights, it's Hawkgirl who provides company and support.

Green Guardsman: You're a credit to your people, son.

Black Siren: Let's let the men talk.

Ray: Can I come? Can I?
Martian Manhunter: I would hesitate to put the boy in harm's way...
Catman: Sure! You can come along!

All those lines almost made me die with...chuckling...(okay, I only laugh at America's Funniest Home Videos). It's interesting to see just what was preserved from the "golden/silver" age. Everything, including the racist or sexist perceptions of certain peoples.

Hawkgirl: And everytime somebody starts to figure things out...
Flash: Nuns and dynamite!

Heh-heh, no one could have put it better. This is why Ray shouldn't be in charge of a "utopian society." His idea of the perfect world is a city constantly plagued by super-criminals. If it weren't for the JGA, the innocents would certainly suffer. And who's to say the JGA has always made it in time? Certainly at one point a "player" got in the way of the Injustice Guild's ploys...

Or maybe they heard just one pun too many and offed themselves...

I think it hurt Ray more to be attacked by his beloved creations than by the JL alone. After all, these were his idols who we beating on him. It's also possible that contact with the Justice League gave the Justice Guild even more free will and when Ray tried to bring them back, the strain was too great and he fell.

While I never started bawling, my throat defintely choked up when I saw the Streak give the salute. The sacrifice of any hero, imaginary or not, is something to be sad about. GL was right in mourning them.

"That's real enough for me."

Antiyonder

07-25-2006, 03:25 AM

A speculation removed from Wikipedia's Justice Guild article has the possible reasoning behind the name:

Seabord City may have been named after [[Atlas/Seaboard Comics]], a short lived comic book publisher from the 1970's.

Any opinions?

Trevor Balena

07-25-2006, 07:55 AM

Any opinions?
Hmm. Possible, but if true you think they'd have mentioned it in the commentary...

James Harvey

02-23-2010, 06:55 AM

With today's release of the Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths animated feature (DVD Talkback (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=264407), Feature Talkback (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=264406)), there's no better time than now to bump up this discussion. This acclaimed two-part episode is included on the Target-exclusive Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths home video release bonus disc.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/legends/p1/22.jpg

Justice League
"Legends, Parts 1 & 2"
Original Airdate - April 21st, 2002

During a fight with Lex Luthor, the Justice League is blasted into an alternate reality where they meet the Justice Guild of America, a group of old-fashioned comic-book heroes whose exploits Green Lantern remembers reading about when he was a kid. Then, after coming across startling evidence concerning the Justice Guild, Green Lantern approaches the heroes with it with horrific results.

Comments?