This really doesn't do the awfulness of it justice, but...

[J Lee]

...if anyone is interested in seeing some stills from The All-Time Worst Use of Warner Brothers Characters, "Daffy Duck and Porky Pig Meet the Groovie Goolies," Ron Kuher has them posted at his Toon Tracker website.

The link is ABC Saturday Superstar Movie -- Filmation Associates (http://www.toontracker.com/satsup/ssm1.htm) and you'll have to scroll down past "The Brady Kids on Mysterious Island" and "Lassie and the Spirit of Thunder Island." Remember, the still images of the characters may not look that bad, but if you ever get a chance to see them actually move and talk, you'll understand why it gained it's well-deserved reputation as the absolute nadir of Warner toons.

[Sogturtle]

Yep John~

As we've discussed before. the writing on "Daffy Duck and..." was indeed the mother of all bottom of all barrels. However the fact of it being voiced by THE man of a 1000 voices, Mr. Melvin Jerome Blanc does mitigate in favor of the soundtrack. I'm still all for going after Warners to exhume the soundtrack and make whatever revisions are possible to the script to make it at least passable... And then proceed to new animation layouts and reanimating it as something to be at least NOT ashamed of anymore. All in favor say "AYE"...

[Jack]

EEEEEEEEEWWWWW!!!!!! That was wierd. Even Scooby Doo has better looking qhosts.

Maybe (keep in mind that I've never seen this) if they cut out all the Ghouly stuff, shorten it, throw in a musical number (maybe the "Daffy Duck Rhapsody" song, I don't know if it would fit at all, but it would be entertaining to see it animated...) Give it a lavish budget with full character animation (make the cels look real nice so if they don't make money from the cartoon they can at least sell a lot of expensive cels) and some decent backgrounds by someone with a good sense of color. Maybe redo the music if it has bad music...

Maybe they could give it a "Scarlett Pumpernickle" sort of plot, I don't know, how does Daffy act, and is there a lot of character interaction?


Jack:D

[Garrett]

But has anyone ever seen the Groovy Goolies cartoon series before? I know I haven't, but this is in part because because that show aired before I was even born. I'm presuming that some of what happened in this special is about par for the course for that show.

As it stands, the Groovy Goolies is *not* one of the shows that Filmation fans (myself included) point to as being the creme de la creme of the studio. In fact, both the Groovy Goolies and the Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour were on CBS when this show was likely approved, which makes it look suspiciously like something CBS commissioned, then optioned off to ABC when they canned the Groovy Goolies.

Personally, I think the plot is pretty solid (or at least on par with the New Scooby Movies series), and wholly dependent on the Goolies, which is pretty consistent for Filmation (as they produce crap when provided with crap, but soared with He-Man and Fat Albert, for instance). Of course, I've never seen the cartoon, and I really doubt that many have, as it last aired in 1973-almost a full decade before the VCR became a familiar staple of the American home. Plus, since the cartoon is likely owned by Hallmark (who owns the Filmation back library), WB, and Archie Comics (as the Groovy Goolies interracted with the initial TV incarnation of Sabrina the Teenage Witch at times), copyright issues are assured to be well in the way of a proper distribution. So, rest assured, your antichrist of animation will stay locked up for all eternity.

[J Lee]

If I remember right (and I try to push this nightmare of a show to the back of my mind as much as possible), ABC had just reacquired rights to "The Bugs Bunny Show" and had gotten "The Road Runner Show" rights as well, after both had been either seperately or togeather on CBS for the previous five years. At the same time, Filmation has been doing more and more business with ABC over the previous two seasons, with the Jerry Lewis and Brady Kids shows, although CBS was still it's main source of $$, having hit it big in the late 60s and early 70s with "Superman," "The Archies," "Fat Albert" and, yes, "Sabrina, the Teen-Age Witch and The Groovie Goolies."

The "Sabrina/Goolies" combo was the idea apparently of Fred Silverman, who was the king of spin-offs/rip-offs as programming exec for CBS and ABC in the 1970s (before getting his just deserts at NBC in 1979-81). He started out as programing exec for CBS' Saturday morning lineup in the 1960s, and could in a way be considered Terrytoons' last "boss" since it was Fred who pretty much came up with "The Mighty Heroes" idea for Ralph Bakshi to do, and CBS owned Terrytoons at the time so Fred's ideas were law (He also made life miserable for some of the ex-Warner's writers at Hanna-Barbera, but that's another story).

Anyway, Fred took an Archie comics character close to Samantha on "Bewitched" and had her mixed in with "The Munsters/Addams Family" based characters, The Goolies, which were wholly the creation of the Hal Sutherland-Don Christensen/Lou Schrimer troika at Filmation, while tossing in a little of "Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In" to boot. And it was a success for a few years. But once that series had run its course on CBS, "Sabrina" was still the property of The Archie Comics Publishing Company, while the Goolies belonged to Flimation outright, which meant they had more to gain by keeping those characters alive, since -- in a repeat of the Famous Studios Little Lulu/Little Audrey situation of 25 years earlier -- they didn't have to share the rights to the characters with anyone else, as they did with virtually everything else they had previously done. So, they peddle the idea of moving the characters over to ABC.

So ABC now has the rights to the WB characters and to Hal, Don and Lou's tacky monsters. Meanwhile, up the road in Burbank, Warners is going through its third ownership change in 5 1/2 years, having been taking over by parking lot/shoe store operator Kinney National Services, and is both at its absolute low point about giving a damn about its cartoon characters and has no studio of its own and is willing to license them out for the right price (except Bugs, thank God). Put that all together and you've got "Porky and Daffy Meet the Groovie Goolies."

As for the soundtrack, Tim, if they could cut and edit it properly, it would be worth saving. But the problem is Filmation cared so little about the quality, that (and Ron mentions this on his page) Daffy's voice is speeded up as fast as anything Avery or Clampett did with the character in 1938. Porky's voice is also too fast (but not by as much) while the normal speed voices Blanc did were OK -- well, they sounded OK, except for the dialouge they had to deliver. If someone can repair the vocal mess, then the show wouldn't be as vocally annoying as it is visually.

The one good thing to come out of it was that "Porky and Daffy Meet the Groovie Goolies" was so bad, it actually made the money-over-everything business people at Wanrers in Burbank sit up and realize that they could kill the golden goose if they allowed a few more of these to be produced. Warners animation has had its low spots in the last 30 years, but it's never sunk to this level again, and the film should be shown to every new exec at AOL Time Warner with any control over the animation department, just to make them realize how bad things can get.

[Sogturtle]

John, Jack, Garrett (or was that Manny, Moe and Jack??:D)~

Okay, I performed a ritual self-sacrifice... I just sat down and watched my print of this mis-begotten critter... Mine lacks any live-action segment, the opening titles and appears to be missing the actual opening of the show. But it contains THE credits, but then in addition has the credits for what it says are for the Sabrina show! (The things you buy from bootleggers...). Both Daffy and Tweety are speeded up sooooo much that they sound like they're both inhaling helium AND tripping on Speed:). But slowing down the master-tape (and a good rehab program :)) would mend this with the greatest of ease. Petunia is given an obnoxious fat-sounding voice in a sort-of Hedda Hopper/Louella Parsons characterization (easily replaceable). The story really breaks down into two separate stories, one of which is a comedic version of King Arthur and its "filming" , and the other a search and battle with the Phantom. From these elements it breaks down further into three categories (or was that just "gory":)). There are all Looney Tunes scenes, some all Groovie Goolies scenes, and the misbegotten much feared hermaphroditic Looney Tunes AND Groovie Goolie scenes... Which thankfully are comparitively few!!

The all-Groovie Goolie scenes could be sliced out and replaced with almost any other cartoon character(s) ever conceived. The Goolies (and their home "Horrible Hall") are not in any way, shape or form necessary or organic to the plot (whereas the Looney Tunes characters ARE).

The mixed Groovie Goolie/Looney Tunes scenes are the most problematical and peculiar... At one juncture Daffy makes a reference that "those FOUR" are not anywhere nearby... Buuuuut the peculiarity was that there were always FIVE Groovie Goolies!! In fact in this scene the FIVE are seated in a theater with Daffy!! Which then brings up the unique notion of whether Mel Blanc's sessions were done separately from those with the other voice actors (Larry Storch, Howard Morris etc.). And/or that Mel (being the former radio writer/performer that he was) MAY have rewritten some of his own dialogue. Anywho, even in the mixed scenes the Goolies could be replaced by any other characters willing to be 'one-upped' by Daffy 'Dumas' Duck. Having five Goolie characters was/is actually way too much in the story. All such NECESSARY scenes with their replacements could well be handled by two or no more than three characters. A much more coherent storyline would be to replace the Goolies with Bugs (suitably irate at anybody messing with toons) and one or two other characters, who would take the upstaging and "stunts". Hmmmm, Cool Cat and Speedy would enjoy a nice fall from a fifty foot high ladder:)

Iffffff Warners was amenable to shelling out the dough to clear up the rights and re-animate the Looney Tunes scenes there actually ARE are number of funny or amusing gags and lines (e.g. Pepe suddenly growing amorous...over a HORSE!!). A number of the animation layouts and extremes are actually nicely done (I suspect the work of Virgil Ross on some of these) and Daffy and Porky (in his few scenes) especially stay on model). To go out on a limb, some of the Looney Tunes (but unfortunately NOT all) scenes look almost like something from the DePatie-Freleng run. But for this remake (for Mel Blanc AND Warner Bros. sake) to REALLY WORK it requires authentic full animation!!

==============================================

Actually the Bugs Bunny/Roadrunner Show was still on CBS in the Seventies... The genesis (not to be confused with genocide) of this oddity "Daffy Duck And Porky...") was more than anything tired to a deal between Warners and Filmation, which I won't go into.

==============================================

Garrett... Filmation made money on the Groovie Goolies by animating the series verrrrrry cheaply and very fast. Just like ALL of their programs of the Seventies (though my secret sin, I always liked the Archies:o). Buuuuut the "Groovie..." series is loud and shrill and particularly rotten beyond belief. Their better moments in the 1970's were on the vocal tracks for the animated "Star Trek", and on their idiosyncratic theatrical animated feature "Journey Back To Oz" (partly produced by the legendary Preston Blair). (The animated "Star Trek" is screaming out for Paramount to pony up some big bucks and animate it in gorgeous full animation as it should have been back then!!). It was only at the end of that decade and in the Eighties that they drastically improved direction, writing, and animating (Hal Sutherland had gone bye-bye). Suddenly we had "The Tom And Jerry Comedy Show", "Flash Gordon" and a number of other programs that showed that finally somebody was caring about quality.

[Sogturtle]

Ifffff Warners wanted to maintain a horror quotient ("the Phantom") they could substitute the vampire from "Transylvania 6-5000... He's been out of work a lonnnnng time...

[Garrett]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
(Hal Sutherland had gone bye-bye)

Hal Sutherland was a factor at Filmation until at least 1983-in fact, of the three founders of Filmation, Norm Prescott is the one that seems to drop out of the picture first.

Personally, I fail to see the point of, nor do I agree with, re-animating anything, regardless of how famously atrocious it may be animation, or otherwise. It's par for the course here to decry the redrawn Golden Age shorts-why do you want to do just that just in order to "improve" cartoons from the decade when cartoons were nothing more than a cash cow to the networks?

Anything Filmation is bound to take its share of abuse, simply because of the studio's famed cost-cutting measures (which arose at about the time this special was made), which is primarily due to the fact that the Filmation heads of state refused to fire the large number of union animators under their employ. With that said, even the absolute worst that Filmation has to offer (and, in the 80s, this is largely due to some really turdy writers-my info is pretty piecemeal about Filmation in the 70s, so I won't speak for their writing corps at that period of time) is a lot better than what I've seen from modern studios such as DIC in the late 80s-early 90s (to say nothing of the garbage that has consistently spewed from Hanna-Barbera at a rate sometimes greater than the percentage of quality shows). It's really amazing that I've consistently watched cartoons my whole life, given the crap from that period, coupled with the mass editing of the good stuff.

I still think that corporate and network interests created this special, and not Filmation. The studio was 10 years old at that point, and had been producing animated series for a mere 6-7 years. Plus, this was in the middle of the dark ages of network meddling post-Kerner Commission report.

Garrett

[Sogturtle]

Garrett~

J. Lee and I both had the unfortunate experience of sitting through (or TRYING to sit through) a fair amount of Filmation's 1970's output... And truth be told, save for those few exceptions I mentioned (and a couple others I didn't mention), it is ummmm rotten beyond words. This holds true for the Seventies HB stuff as well. BUUUUUT with one crucial difference... The HB stuff though just as badly written and directed, at least made an ATTEMPT at making their TV toons LOOK passable. Both companies employed a lot of old animation pros, but Hanna and Barbera had their names on the company to uphold. Whereas Scheimer and Prescott didn't. And so the animation and art was allowed to go out as just barely good enough to pass the network buyers. Their theatrical feature "Journey Back To Oz" (1971) showed that when they cared a whit and would spend the necessary money then they could do things that were not out and out crappy.

Hal Sutherland was indeed out of directing at Filmation by 1979, and his name is off all the credits by the time of "The Tom And Jerry Comedy Show" (1981). Which was why I phrased it as "had gone bye-bye". Where he was after the late 1970s is a point to ponder, but he was not actively involved at Filmation to any discernible, knowable extent.

As for WHY Filmation created this special... The real truth behind it is pretty bizarre, and I just don't care to go into it into deeper.

My suggestion for remaking (emphasis) on "remaking" this truly perverse special was and is primarily to make use of a very finite resource... Mel Blanc. The Looney Tunes writing in much of it is actually not bad. But the cumulative effect of everything else in it drops it to an unbelievable level!! If Warners can feel comfortable computer-colorizing classic b & w cartoons, then why not nudge them to try to create something good and fun out of something that is indeed nearly dreadful beyond words. I was and am not advocating "redrawing" this critter... My proposal is straight to the root... [B]Re-Direct it! Everything except the vocal track which would indeed require skillful editing and retiming. And then totally reanimate it in full animation. NEW EVERYTHING!!!

[J Lee]

Tim --

You're right about the Hanna-Barbera vs. Filmation comparison -- as bad as some of the H-B post-1966 stuff was, it never set my teeth grating the way some of the Flimation efforts did, though it didn't start out that way.

I also liked the original Archie series, and looking back, I think one of the reasons is with no other network cartoon series in 1967 other than Superman, Fimlation had to animate The Archies from scratch. Admittedly, it wasn't the greatest animation, but at least it was animation original to that series, and not cribbed from stock shots of the Man of Steel, Lois, Jimmy or somewhere else.

But once that was done, Filmation went to the well again and again and again, using the same stock poses only with different charcaters, along with the same music, the same laugh track, the same stupid jalopy going over the same stupid hill, the same Archie/Reggie guitar playing poses (going back to my point a few months back about how they managed not to have Kirk and Spock playing guitars in the Star Trek series) -- everything was used and re-used ad nausium, which showed a total disdain for the kids watching the shows, as if we wouldn't notice. (I could almost picture Filmation pres Lou Schreimer echoing the 1930's radio hose Uncle Don, who -- after saying good night to the kiddies -- added when he thought he was off-mike, "Well, that ought to hold the little bastards.")

As the "Walking in Circles" short on CN shows, Hanna-Barbera used stock poses and actions for difference characters. But Bill and Joe at least had the decency to limit those to things that most people do smilarly, such as walking (unless you're animating Minister of Silly Walks John Cleese). In a Filmation cartoon, The Cosby Kids played their guitars like Archie and Reggie, as did the Goolies and My Favorite Martians on the opening titles.

I'll give Filmation credit -- their late 1970s T&Js were better than the dreck Hanna-Barbera put out a few years earlier. But by then Fat Albert had been canned and the company was on the downslide and had to do a little bit more imagantive work (though not a whole lot more).

***

As for the "Bugs Bunny Show" network location -- somewhere I have a reel to reel tape (I believe from early 1973) of the end music to the show from when it was on ABC, complete with a promotional voice over for the Saturday night ABC show "Fire House" and the "Superfriends" (the really crappy ones with Wendy and Marvin) which was coming up next. So there was a year or two in the early 1970s when the Warner's toons did migrate back to ABC, which I think coincided with the time "Porky and Daffy Meet the Groovie Goolies" was concocted. I know they were back on CBS by the 1975-76 season, because that's when CBS also started ordering the prime-time specials (which may or may not have been part of the deal to get Bugs, Daffy and the gang back).

[Garrett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sogturtle
[B] Hal Sutherland was indeed out of directing at Filmation by 1979, and his name is off all the credits by the time of "The Tom And Jerry Comedy Show" (1981). Which was why I phrased it as "had gone bye-bye". Where he was after the late 1970s is a point to ponder, but he was not actively involved at Filmation to any discernible, knowable extent.

Nope. 1983. Ever seen the opening credits of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe from the first year? He was the Production Director, and also directed "Daimar the Demon" (which is one damn fine early episode).

As for your issues with Filmation, that's you. In addition to He-Man, She-Ra, and Fat Albert, I still hold a fond spot for their Tarzan, Lone Ranger, and Zorro shows. Only a total moron would rate the Droopy cartoons they did above Tex Avery's output, but it's largest weakness is that Frank Welker is a horrible choice for Droopy's voice. The Heckle & Jeckle cartoon was, when I saw it recently, was an experiment in total insanity, with only the score annoying me to no end.

H-B, on the other hand, has given the world such worthless dreck, it's disgusting. Where should I start? Popeye and Son? The Gary Coleman Show? The Funky Phantom? The Marvin and Wendy Superfriends? Fantastic Max? If H-B was trying with those shows, I'd hate to see them not try.

[Greg Method]

Guys, I don't mean to cause trouble, but I must oppose any attempt to remake this special...only because I know exactly who Warner Bros. would replace the Ghoulies with (a certain mystery-solving great dane). I really don't think we need a "Jetsons Meet the Flintstones"-kinda thing to officially bridge these characters together.

I would love to see Warner dare attempt to show the original program somehow, maybe on Boomerang late one night or as a hidden feature on one of the future DVD's.

And by the way, for you Filmation fans, Lou Scheimer (producer and voice of perhaps half of the characters Filmation ever animated) has launched a new web site for his animation studio, kind of a Filmation: The Next Generation.

He's also trying to get a new "He-Man" series off the ground to coincide with the rereleased action figures.

Here's the URL:
http://www.louscheimerproductions.com

[J Lee]

And by the way, for you Filmation fans, Lou Scheimer (producer and voice of perhaps half of the characters Filmation ever animated) has launched a new web site for his animation studio, kind of a Filmation: The Next Generation.

He's also trying to get a new "He-Man" series off the ground to coincide with the rereleased action figures.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Sogturtle]

The notion of CN (or anybody) ever showing "Daffy Duck And Porky Pig Meet The Groovy Goolies" again in its PRESENT state is pretty dubious... The film was copyrighted solely in the name of FILMATION. So in all likelihood it would be almost exactly like the Marx Brothers early feature, with real ownership split between the owners of the characters, and the owner of the film per se. When I first read Mike Barrier's VERY negative brief mention of its very existence (lonnnnng years ago) I instinctively disagreed with Barrier (as I often do). Mike Barrier was RIGHT. Having just watched it in the last couple of days (the first viewing sometime back I could only take at high-speed) I can GUARANTEE that a good 95-98 percent of any audience (let alone Warner cartoon aficianados) on viewing it would NOT elect to ever see it again... Dare I say most would want to see it quietly deposited in a landfill in the middle of the night and a THICK layer of compost placed on it...

BUUUUT maybe a single unedited, unexpurgated PRIMETIME showing would be in order... Just so everyone could see it and judge for themselves whether a TOTAL REMAKE of everything except Mel Blanc's vocal track was in order. It should be pointed out that this was the ONLY entertainment appearance of the classic Warner characters between 1968 and Chuck's "Carnival Of The Animals" in 1976. Blotting it out leaves an enormous 8-year gap. As such Mel's appearing as the voice of all the LT folk is ACTUALLY quite notable historically and deserves a much better fate.

** Final note** Ifffff Warner's could/would straighten out ownership and go for the TOTAL REMAKE that I've suggested before... Then of course the Goolie scenes would be excised. Those scenes necessitate characters who are near-total screw-ups, but with a bright and comical leader. In my own view I could actually envision a Bugs Bunny-to-the-rescue version, with him being assisted by Chuck's Bear Family, who are natural-born-screwups.

==============================================

It's interesting to know that there are Filmation fans who are as willing to defend that studio's output as the HB fans are as anxious to protect their product. After having been exposed to both of the above back when first aired though...

[J Lee]

Tim --

I suppose instead of running a Tex Avery marathon next April Fool's Day, Cartoon Network could arrange to run "Porky and Daffy..." and bill it in their adds as the "Plan 9 from Outer Space" of animated films.

Connaseurs of bad films from all over America would come running to their TV sets at the possibility of seeing something that rotten. Of couse, it could only be shown once, or at last until a new generation of cartoon fans that have never seen it arrive on the scene sometime around the year 2028.

[AuroraSzalinski]

How about an MST3K version of it? :D Okay, that's wishful thinking...

[Sogturtle]

Aurora~

If Goopy Geer and I-Drive were still around it might be (briefly) broken into several parts and uploaded... Course everybody would go blind when they downloaded and watched it... ;)

[AuroraSzalinski]

http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/contrib/ruinkai/biglaugha.gif