Don't Knock It Till You Try It [Archive]

Sapphic Amazon

04-16-2002, 04:59 AM

I found the less-than-subtle disdain and disrespect for the Amazon society in "Fury" inappropriate. Though an imaginary society of at best a few thousand, it has lasted a couple thousand of years without attacking anyone. (Whereas in real "Man's World" there hasn't been a period of more than twenty-five years where there hasn't been at least one ongoing war since 1495.) I doubt the Amazons have had even one murder, rape, torture etc. whereas the real "world" civilizations are innudated with serious crimes, an attempts at even genocide. (Studies show approximately one out of every twenty Americans will spend some time in prison.) Amazon society, despite having a queen, has no caste or class system, unlike every other society in the real world. I could go on, but either way, hubris regarding the real world civilizations over, albeit imaginary, Amazon society is ill-founded.
I'd rather make fun of the now ubiquitously popular "Don't knock it till you try it," line from our new sardonic siren of the skies- Hawkgirl. How such a childish, cliched and copout reply could be so hailed, despite the context, is amusing to say the least. Why not toss about such glib and immature quotes as- I know you are, but what am I - or - Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me - or - Says You!
That type of retort is the equivalent of a 10 year old comeback, hardly worthy of the comic appreciation of rebuttals assosiated with the Groucho Marx/Don Rickles set. That's the type of line one uses when you haven't any legitimate reasoning or explanation to defend your position or effectively criticize the position of another. It is the "Justification Mantra" of drug addicts and alcoholics. If your in to bestiality you could flippantly quip to a detractor, "Don't knock it till you try it. Go on, grab a goat."
Even Dick Grayson in his 14 yr. old whelp days of agonizingly bad comedy and inane quips could verbally outdo our sagacious and whimsical winged heroine, and that's back in the day when he was best known as- Robin, the Boy Hostage.
I wonder how many on this message board would find such a lame comeback and pithy remark amusing if delivered in this context. Former Justice Leaguer, Tasmanian Devil (a homosexual) asks Batman, "So, did you ever have sex with Robin?" And Batman vehemently and angrily replies, "No." The Tasmanian Devil chuckles, "Well, don't knock it till you try, Dark Knight." I believe the appreciation value of this line would then become nil.
So, I personally can't wait until the next time our mace-wielding heroine utters some riotously rip-tickling retort in the absence of a logical and well-reasoned response. Oh, the chuckles that will be had by all! How she will put every other being in their (alleged) place. I await with bated breath the arrival of the next great quote from the new immortal bard. Ah, yes, I can hear it now. "I am rubber, you are glue..."

Sapphic Amazon

Bird Boy

04-16-2002, 09:09 AM

it's a...show. No need to take it so seriously. Amazon's aren't real, the JL isn't real, the shows for fun.

On a side note, I don't know why people get so worked up over it. It has it's flaws, but if it's so bad, then why continue to watch it?

-BB

Bleu Unicorn

04-16-2002, 10:01 AM

The "real" Amazons, are in fact quite warlike, I should point out. I've posted this elsewhere, but in fact they were brutal to men -- and sometimes cruel in their punishments of their own kind. So to say that they are above mankind, I won't agree. So remember that when you think of their comic book interpretations. They are in fact very well treated in these stories, considering their mythological, and real, influences that created them

As for the show's "disdain and disrespect" -- not to sound rude -- but I'm with Bird Boy, if it's so bad, don't watch it.

'Nuff said.

-- Uni

Borg4of3

04-16-2002, 10:35 AM

On one hand, the Amazons are race peaceful for thousands of years, but they exist like that only because of a common hatred that had festered for those same thousands of years. This imaginary hatred has accomplished two different things. It has created a peaceful society that is more unified and trusting amongs each other; but it also caused them to grow ignorant and belligerent toward something they don't understand. Shades of KKK, Dark Age Catholicism, and Hitler rise, people who believed only in themselves and denounced and dismissed others. Sure, they made a law that forced the Amazons from taking out their anger onto Man's world, but surely there would be a time when that anger grew too much even for that tiny little island...

Like Hawkgirl said, Aresia is the epitome of the Amazonian hatred and ignorance set loose. Proof that the ends don't justify the means, in both her actions and those of the Amazons.

And personally, I cringed at the 'Don't knock it' line, for the reason that I just thought it was corny. :p

Domino

04-16-2002, 11:25 AM

I thought the line was funny, but not as funny as the look on Diana's face after it was said. :)

Maxie Zeus

04-16-2002, 11:59 AM

Hmmm. This is something for our resident experts on Themyscira to talk about. How exactly is Themyscira organized socially and politically? How many Amazons live on it? What exactly is the history behind it and the Amazons? Given that there is no reproduction among Amazons, is there sex?

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 12:00 PM

The "Dont knock it till youve tried it " was not meant as
anything other than sexual innuendo.

It is amusing in that the producers were able to suggest
something about the sexual practices of Wonder Woman and
Hawkgirl in a simple comment that slipped past the sensors.

Its funny not because of its wit .. but because two super heroines ... in an animated cartoon no less ...are talking about
s-e-x.

~

As for comparing Amazon Society to the "World of Man" ...
kind of silly. The real world has wars .. not because its run by
men , but because its the real world.

Shows like Justice League or Star Trek are about giving us hope
for a world that is better than the one in which we live.

Hope is the first step toward making dreams reality.

But if you want to ground your arguements in fact Sapphic, you should read about Amazon cultures in real history.

Ironically they were much more violent then "The World of Man".

Posted by MAXIE ZUESS

Hmmm. This is something for our resident experts on Themyscira to talk about. How exactly is Themyscira organized socially and politically? How many Amazons live on it? What exactly is the history behind it and the Amazons? Given that there is no reproduction among Amazons, is there sex?

Well according to G. Perez who is to Wonder Woman what
John Byrne is to Superman. . .

On his run of the comic , which revitalized the character post crisis, it was implied that the Amazons did indeed have sex.

Now , if they have sex on an island with no men ....well ..
you get the picture.

* * *

The Amazons are immortal ..but they dont reproduce.

The only addition to the Amazons was Diana and she was
created from clay and brought to life by the gods.

She was granted gifts by the gods on her birth that account
for her having powers the other amazons do not ...
such as speed, strength , flight & invulnerability.

Spider

04-16-2002, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Hmmm. This is something for our resident experts on Themyscira to talk about. How exactly is Themyscira organized socially and politically? How many Amazons live on it? What exactly is the history behind it and the Amazons? Given that there is no reproduction among Amazons, is there sex?

Maxie,

Give it up. You're only hoping that they have Jack Benny on Themyscira--and I'm telling you, he's not going to make an appearance. ;)

Seriously, those are excellent questions. I'll need to think about them at length before responding. :)

Anubis C. Soundwave

04-16-2002, 01:20 PM

Hatred is stupid no matter how many ways you slice it. Men are not the supreme evil of the universe. In fact, non-Amazons need them to breed. :D ;)

Evil doesn't have a face, a race, or a gender. Hatred is the epicenter of evil.

"Man or woman, a sick mind is capable of anything." Batman said it best.

As for the quip you're berating, sheesh. Hawkgirl was just implying that men have their uses...I'll stop now.

Aside from that, there are more good men on Earth than bad. Imperfect, mind you, but good.

Spider

04-16-2002, 01:30 PM

I really enjoyed Sapphic Amazon's post. There is quite a lot to digest there, and even more to discuss--the dichotomies (and pseudo-apophactic [sic] elements) especially so. However, judging by the tone of the post (and I realize that such judgments are at best subjective and frequently erroneous), I would hope that any refutation or corroboration I might consider adding is not met with C. McKinnon-ish disdain. Otherwise, there really isn't any point to my attempting to add meaningfully and substantively to what could be a very fruitful and informative discussion. :)

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 01:39 PM

SPIDER ... this is two posts now, in this single thread where all you have had to say ..is that you eventually will have something to say.

The President made an official statement on the attacks of Sept 11th faster than you've been able to post a comment on your thoughts regarding amazonian sexual practices & heirarchy.

Please , for the love of god ... the forum is clamoring for an
official statement from the Spider . (mild sarcasm ) :)

Spider

04-16-2002, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
SPIDER ... this is two posts now, in this single thread where all you have had to say ..is that you eventually will have something to say.

The President made an official statement on the attacks of Sept 11th faster than you've been able to post a comment on your thoughts regarding amazonian sexual practices & heirarchy.

Please , for the love of god ... the forum is clamoring for an
official statement from the Spider . (mild sarcasm ) :)

Stupendous Man,

LOL! Good one! Actually, I'm waiting to read what another poster (whom I respect very much) has to say about it before I *really* weigh in-- but she lurks here (without necessarily posting all of the time) almost as much as I do. So until then.... :)

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 02:04 PM

Posted by the SPIDER

LOL! Good one! Actually, I'm waiting to read what another poster (whom I respect very much) has to say about it before I *really* weigh in-- but she lurks here (without necessarily posting all of the time) almost as much as I do. So until then....

LOL ... now we have three posts without an official comment.

Come on now SPIDER , surely you have an opinion of your own.

However , if you choose not to post - perhaps you could use this free time to peruse the dictionary and discover which word you
actually meant to use in your term "psuedo-apophactic".

Apophactic is not a word acknowledged by Webster or Emanuele Lewis.

When you start using big words that dont mean anything ... people may assume your trying to pass yourself off as a
"pseudo-intelectual" :D

Jade_GL

04-16-2002, 02:52 PM

Amazons, although they have been portrayed in some instances as peaceful, have gone through some changes over the years. Actually, they just went through a civil war in the comics. Another thing is that Amazons have not been dragged through the mud, I think. I think the line was just a joke, and it was more innuendo than a condemnation of Amazon society as a whole.

Besides, if we are thinking about two people from two completely different worlds and upbringings, like Hawkgirl and Wondy, wouldn't they have a tension anyway when it comes to views on the value of men? Isn't that the point of fiction, to have tension and conflict? I think that it was a good thing to show the idea of Amazon society, without men, taken to the extreme. It shows that any idea, no matter how basically good in intention, can turn into something bad when twisted by one person. It's timely.

Anyway, I think the line was just supposed to be a joke, not a dig at the idea of the Amazons. I also think the cartoon has managed to handle them surprisingly well, seeing as that they have to think that half of their audience are men and boys who probably think the Amazon ideas are kind of suspect anyway. Then again, it's fiction, so I think most just want to see a good story.

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 02:56 PM

Welcome to the forum JADE .

The Green Hornet

04-16-2002, 03:04 PM

Stupdendous Man

i cannot get enough of your avatar-- it rules

Who IS this masked man?
And why has he never been photographed together with 6 year old millionaire playboy CALVIN?

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 03:10 PM

Thanks Green !!

Ive never mentioned it, but Ive often admired your avatar as well ...

By the way ... Im going to have to use that "masked man quote" on my profile. LOL .. I was meaning to go check my Calvin n Hobbes collection to find the exact quote tonight .. but youve done the work for me .. cool !

Spider

04-16-2002, 03:17 PM

However , if you choose not to post - perhaps you could use this free time to peruse the dictionary and discover which word you
actually meant to use in your term "psuedo-apophactic".

Apophactic is not a word acknowledged by Webster or Emanuele Lewis.

When you start using big words that dont mean anything ... people may assume your trying to pass yourself off as a
"pseudo-intelectual" :D [/B]

Stupendous,

I mispelled the word. It's apophatic. And BTW, it's 'intellectual'--you mispelled that word in your post. You also mispelled 'psuedo'-- you should have written 'pseudo.' You also misused 'your' when you actually should have posted, 'you're.' Do you really want to play this game? But I do thank you for the advice. :)

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 03:22 PM

Spider ,

I bow to you sir.

Upon rereading my post , I think what I meant
to be playfull ribbing .. could have easily been
interpretted as mean spirited.

I appologize to you and commend you on your
taking the high road.

* * *

But still we wait for your comments on this pressing
issue of amazonian sexuality .. LOL .

* * *

Spider

04-16-2002, 03:26 PM

I really do abhor playing the game of 'who spelled what incorrectly.' I have words that I mispell frequently, and I don't like to point out anyone else's spelling mistakes unless they do so first.

BTW, others may comment all they want (including you more than once, right?) on the issues you raise. Why is it so important that *I* respond?

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 03:36 PM

Peace brother spider ...

I enjoy a good verbal tussle as much as anyone -
but I dont have any problem with you.

I only began to tease you because you kept posting on this
thread that you had things to say on this topic - but never
actually "issued a statement" on what you claimed was a
"very fruitful and informative discussion".

Personally , I couldnt care less if you never respond to this thread.

I just appreciated the irony of someone who repeatedly states they have something to say .. but says nothing.

Spider

04-16-2002, 03:55 PM

I only began to tease you because you kept posting on this thread that you had things to say on this topic - but never actually "issued a statement" on what you claimed was a "very fruitful and informative discussion".

No, I never claimed any such thing. What I wrote was that it "... could be a very fruitful and informative discussion." I was hopeful that it could be, not that it necessarily was. And I was very careful to point out that I was awaiting a response from a particular poster before I posted anything meaningful. But you chose to ignore that, which of course is your prerogative.

Personally , I couldnt care less if you never respond to this thread.

Very well. It has become clear to me that it would be better if I moved on. I've enjoyed many of the posts in the Justice League Forum. I've learned a lot from reading many of the opinions and views from some very knowledgeable fans and experts.

I wish Justice League all of the best in the future. To the writers that frequent this Forum-- thank you so much for the current iteration of Hawkgirl. She's the primary reason I began watching Justice League, and she's the reason I will continue to watch it. Take care.

Spider

Stupendous Man

04-16-2002, 04:04 PM

Posted by SPIDER

Very well. It has become clear to me that it would be better if I moved on. I've enjoyed many of the posts in the Justice League Forum. I've learned a lot from reading many of the opinions and views from some very knowledgeable fans and experts.

I wish Justice League all of the best in the future. To the writers that frequent this Forum-- thank you so much for the current iteration of Hawkgirl. She's the primary reason I began watching Justice League, and she's the reason I will continue to watch it. Take care.

Spider

Please , dont be overly dramatic.

No one has attacked you .. and no one has asked you
to leave the forum.

Anubis C. Soundwave

04-16-2002, 04:12 PM

It was Sapphic who thought it was an insult. And Aresia who somehow didn't think her plot through well enough, thus destroying many lives.

However, I addressed that second issue in my post about extintcion and infanticide.

Sapphic Amazon

04-16-2002, 04:33 PM

I know full well the history of the mythological Amazons, but they have nothing to do with the DC version of Amazons. Thor was a complete scumbag, but if you're writing a Marvel comic about Thor you have to realize the character is now a hero. Hercules was a rapist and murderer, but if you're writing an episode about him for the Kevin Sorbo version of Hercules, you have to write him as a hero. The DC Amazons were slighted on the cartoon show regarding how they are interrupted in the comics.
Furthermore, it sure is fun being able to write a new thread and know it will garner vast and varied reactions. Tis a hoot! Perhaps my next thread will be to point how the deep-rooted, subversive, insidiously demonic undertones of showing a Gumbi-like Martian eating oreo cookies could corrupt the youth of our nation. (Be ever on alert, people!)

Sapphic Amazon

Manhunter

04-16-2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
Perhaps my next thread will be to point how the deep-rooted, subversive, insidiously demonic undertones of showing a Gumbi-like Martian eating oreo cookies could corrupt the youth of our nation. (Be ever on alert, people!)

Sapphic Amazon

Wouldn't it be funny if the producers actually used that particular character quirk?

czyznyck99

04-16-2002, 06:39 PM

Hey, S. Amazon, that was a well-written essay.

Women represtation in story-telling is certainly becoming a heated topic right now. I'm currently writing an essay for my writing class concerning gender issues in scientific thought. Any thoughts?

Aside from Hawkgirl's "overly popular" to now "somewhat infamous" one-liner (I think that is all it was meant to be, anyway, a joke), I'm looking forward to seeing Hawkgirl's detective skills in further episodes.

Nightwing

04-16-2002, 08:57 PM

I'm afraid I completely disagree with Sapphic's opinion, even though it's very well thought out and researched and such. In my mind, it's simply the facts that any kind of hatred is unhealthy for ALL parties involved or even not involved, problems cannot be avoided by ignoring them. Isolationism doesn't work to well. Even though it means the solution will require more work, we all need to work together if we're going to survive. All worlds, all people, all types. :)

Stupendous Man - I'm glad someone other than myself saw Hawkgirl's line as a very clever and naughty sexual innuendo, because it's for that reason that I found it so damn funny that I just HAVE to have it quoted! I'm gonna tape the episode next week.

Plus Hawkgirl has a valid point with men. My mother CONSTANTLY shoves a similar point down my throat about all types of food I haven't tried but don't want to. :p It works every time!

JohnStewart-GL

04-16-2002, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Jade_GL
Amazons, although they have been portrayed in some instances as peaceful, have gone through some changes over the years. Actually, they just went through a civil war in the comics. Another thing is that Amazons have not been dragged through the mud, I think. I think the line was just a joke, and it was more innuendo than a condemnation of Amazon society as a whole.

Besides, if we are thinking about two people from two completely different worlds and upbringings, like Hawkgirl and Wondy, wouldn't they have a tension anyway when it comes to views on the value of men? Isn't that the point of fiction, to have tension and conflict? I think that it was a good thing to show the idea of Amazon society, without men, taken to the extreme. It shows that any idea, no matter how basically good in intention, can turn into something bad when twisted by one person. It's timely.

Anyway, I think the line was just supposed to be a joke, not a dig at the idea of the Amazons. I also think the cartoon has managed to handle them surprisingly well, seeing as that they have to think that half of their audience are men and boys who probably think the Amazon ideas are kind of suspect anyway. Then again, it's fiction, so I think most just want to see a good story.
Yay! another GL. welcome to the forum. I think this just got me thinking. it was a funny line. But do amazons have sex? One will never know.

Bleu Unicorn

04-16-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by Nightwing
Plus Hawkgirl has a valid point with men. My mother CONSTANTLY shoves a similar point down my throat about all types of food I haven't tried but don't want to. :p It works every time!
Stole the words right out of my mouth! NW, I was totally thinking the same thing! 'Cept it is usually my father -- but the point is still valid. :D

-- Uni

Jade_GL

04-16-2002, 10:19 PM

Well, hey John Stewart-GL! It's good to see you too! Green Lanterns are sooooo cool! ;^)

Not like this matters much, but in comic books, the Amazons have been know to have sex before. It's really no big deal, I don't think. There was Hippolyta falling for Herakles (But then he attacked her and his men attacked all the Amazons, as seen in The Contest storyline, issues 90-93 or 94 I believe). Also, Donna Troy, who isn't really an Amazon but close enough, has had a child. Artemis, when she was in Hades, was the lover of a demon. That's kind of out there....

Not only that, but Wondy has a love interest in comics right this moment! So yes, Amazons seem to like men just fine. It's really kind of odd, when you think about their teachings.

Anyway, that was way off topic but you just reminded me of all of the things I've seen before in assorted comics. :)

Squall

04-17-2002, 04:24 AM

Whoa!

"Sapphic Amazon," did you major in English in college? Your posts very much remind me of the literary analyses I did (or rather, had to do, LOL) in my English classes in college. And just like those English classes I took, your analyses go waaay over my head... :D I'm an Engineer, so literary analysis was never my strong suit. ;)

Let's see... what's my take on this? Hmmm... well, the Queen of The Amazons, in the few episodes of JL we've seen, has already revealed that she once dated Hades himself, not only banned men from Themiscerya but in fact banned the entire outside World, controls speech and the press in Themiscerya, and banned her own daughter, even though she broke 'the rule' to save her own Kingdom.

Doesn't sound so nice to me.

And I think that Diana's and Aresia's leaving Themiscerya for the outside World has started a social chain reaction on Themiscerya. After 3000+ years of complete isolation, the outside World is now aware of Themiscerya's existence, and vice versa, even if it's hard to find because it's in the Bermuda Triangle. (That's where it is, isn't it? I remember reading that somewhere...) Amazonians are starting to realize what they've been missing out on for over 3000 years (good stuff AND bad stuff)... how long until Amazons start leaving Themiscerya in droves... and some of them coming back with men? How long until women from the outside World start coming to Themiscerya in droves... Who knows? In the end, Themiscerya might give up magic (like the rest of the World did 3000+ years ago) and become another island in the Atlantic Ocean and another island nation. Heck, by Batman Beyond's time, Themiscerya could be a popular tourist destination, like Bermuda. :D

Oh, and the quote! I thought it was funny... :)

Blade1225

04-17-2002, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
... Amazon society, despite having a queen, has no caste or class system, unlike every other society in the real world...
Sapphic Amazon

Really? How do u know? If ur basing this off just the JL show, then truthfully, they don't really go in depth into their society. But yes, there is a caste system, obviously, as u said there are the queens, and don't u think that there would be some sort of order of gov, and thus making a caste of high officals, who revceive a lot of prestige. I'm sure the fully trained warriors are another caste, the in-training amazons is probably another, and ofcourse, i'm sure that somehwhere, they get a food supply, thus there are probably people on the island who are less, but still devoted to fighitng but spend more time preparing for the culture and society

All that said, its just a show, don't look so deep into it, casue if u do, u'll just find loop holes, i mean hey, they said everyone on the island is a warrior, who plants the crops then? They said they never leave the island, where do they get all their metals and resources from, i'm sure that living there thousands of years has worn out their supply!

Maxie Zeus

04-17-2002, 09:09 PM

I think one problem we're going to have in in trying to settle this discussion is that we really don't know what's going on with Themyscira. Hawkgirl seems to be accusing the Amazons of regarding men the way the Nazis regarded the Jews -- as a group that has to be eliminated from their society in order for it to flourish. (The Nazis, in fact, first flirted with the idea of setting up a Jewish homeland -- Madagascar was the initial choice -- to which the European Jews would be forcibly evicted. That was abandoned in favor of genocide because killing them would be easier.)

Now, whether what the Amazons did (if this is their real attitude) is on a par with "ethnic" cleansing (as was practiced in the Balkans recently) is perhaps debatable. After all, the Amazons did not eliminate men, they just moved off to where there weren't any and forbade them from entering. Perhaps the better analogy would be to religious communities that move off into abandoned areas to get away from "heathens" or "infidels" or whoever. Still, whatever the past that the Amazons take as justifying the attitude, it seems to be one based on suspicion and disdain and which can be twisted (as Aresia twisted it) into a desire to eliminate the hated group entirely.

Problem is, we don't really know what's going on with Themysciran society, and so we don't really know if Hawkgirl is speaking knowledgeably or not. She would have been on much firmer ground if Aresia had explicitly painted herself as a Themysciran patriot, as trying to conquer the world on Themyscira's behalf and justified herself by explicitly alluding to Amazonian culture and ideology. (Even then, I think Hawkgirl -- or another JL member -- would have been justified only in pointedly asking Diana if this -- Aresia's ideology -- is what the Amazons implicitly believe, and left the lesson to sink in.) But we really didn't get that.

I hate trying to read Sapphic Amazon's mind, but I assume from (um, her?) reaction that she's interpreting episode as slighting the possibilities in a female-dominated society and of slighting lesbianism. Personally, I can see that interpretation, but I think the episode could also simply be seen as simply attacking the ideas of exclusion and "purity" as having a basis in hatred and hence prone to encouraging Aresia's kind of malice. It's just that it wasn't fleshed out well enough for us to see that properly. Which would make it an aesthetic failure rather than a social or political one.