A DANGEROUS thread: Which is a better movie Phanton Menace or Fellowship of the Ring

[Stupendous Man]

I know this is a dangerous thread .. LOL .. but
were all adults here .

Ive seen a lot of die hard Star Wars fans trashing
LOTR senselessly .

Personally I dont see why you cant be a fan of both the
LOTR & SW franchises simultaneously ( I am ) but whatever.

My gripe is that the Die Hard SW fans compare the entire
Star Wars franchise to one movie Fellowship.

That hardly seems fair.

If you were going to be fair and analytical about a comparison
of the two franchises youd have to compare the CURRENT
Star Wars franchise to the current LOTR film.

Basically we are squaring off between
PHANTOM MENACE vs FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING.


Which is a better all around movie.

As the franchises progress of course wed have to compare
TWO TOWERS to ATTACK of the CLONES but were not there yet.


* * *

Personally Id have to say FELLOWSHIP is a much stronger start to a trilogy than PHANTOM.

Overall I think youd have to concede that FELLOWSHIP is just
a better overall motion picture (14 Oscar Nominations - 4 wins).


So lets start the ball rolling ...

Star Wars Episodes I - III vs Lord of the Rings

[bfmusashi]

LOTR was better than SW Ep. 1, hands down. The Phantom Menace was just a huge disappoint for me. Though it had lots of good fights and some pretty eye candy, the acting was terrible and wooden. None of the characters were interesting at all, and they had absolutely no personality, at least when compared to the classic Star Wars trilogy. The only character who had SOME personality was Jar Jar, and he was too annoying.

The pod racing was okay, though. I'm hoping Attack of the Clones will be better...

[Heehaw]

Like both.

The Eps. 1 characters(specifically Jedi) are supposed to be stoic, which translates to wooden. No fault in something that is by design.

[Vin]

I've got to agree, "The Fellowship of the Ring" was a far better movie than "Episode One." I am not even looking forward to "Episode Two" and I was previously a "Star Wars" fan. I really can't wait until the "Two Towers" come out though.

[Bird Boy]

being a SW freak, I enjoyed TPM better (mainly because I didn't get bored w/ it like LOTR).

However, just wait till attack of the clones comes out.. :D

And just so you guys know, since this is labeled a "Dangerous Thread", this one will be watched closely....so, yeah... ;)

-BB

[Gyro]

LOTR was way better than any Star Wars movie (well mabe except for Empire Strikes Back). Episode one was the worst of the Star Wars movies, and LOTR was a very good movie. I am not looking forward to episode two. I will see it eventually, but I would rather see Spider-Man;).

[TheHuntressDiana]

Personally, nothing can top the Jedi....so in that respect, The Phantom Menace is better than Fellowship of the Ring.

However, if you're talking about the story line...then Fellowship of the Ring beats out The Phantom Menace.


But over all...for sheer "personal geek factor," I have to give my vote to The Phantom Menace.

[j32885]

I'm also a huge fan of both LOTR and Star Wars. I watch a lot S.W. movies and read the LOTR books once a year.

[Stupendous Man]

Im a huge Star Wars fans ,so I understand where a lot of the SW fans are coming from ....but ...

Isnt it funny that people who say Fellowship is a better movie argue that its better because of the cinemetography, or the compeling story ..or the richness of Tolkiens source material ...

However people who state that that phantom menace is a better movie say Phantom Menace is a better movie because ....its star wars.

"because its Star Wars" isnt really a compelling arguement ..LOL .. its an emotional one.

I understand this because I love Star Wars so much ... and its such a integral part of my childhood that the "idea" of Star Wars is more powerful than the actual product Goerge gave us.

Lucas let us down with Phantom.

I only wish Lucas had given Phantom the same amount of love and respect that Jackson gave Fellowship. Phantom should have been the fil that got 14 Oscar nominations.

But it wasnt... and the fact that Jedi are cool and our love for Empire shouldnt cloud our judgement ...

Fellowship is by far a much better movie than Phantom Menace.

If you disagree ..tell me why - but dont say its better cause its "Star Wars"

[JTurner954]

Hmm, it's kind of hard to say.

I waited until earlier this week to rent Star Wars Episode 1 and watch it for the first time so that when I watch it, it has my complete attention (at home avoiding movie theater distractions). The thing that weakens Episode 1 to me is the fact that you know what happens later on in the Star Wars saga (if you watched Episodes 4-6). I have the feeling that if this movie came out before A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back,and Return of the Jedi,people wouldn't like it and therefore lowers the chance of any other Star Wars movies ever existing.

Therefore, I'm going to say that Fellowship is the better movie (I really had no major problems with Episode 1 of Star Wars. I would gladly discuss the movie if there was a thread about it.). It's a fresh story with a big following that had the style of a classic epic. And even though it might not look like it, I think more story was put into FOTR than Phantom Menace.

The real interesting question would be if Fellowship is better than the "first" movie: Star Wars-A New Hope. I'm VERY curious to see answers to that one.

P.S: The DVD I rented of Star Wars Episode 1 looked (and sounded) fantastic. I can't imagine how good LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring will be on DVD.

[Barb Gordon]

Well, if we were talking about the Star Wars story itself versss Lord of The Rings, I just don't think that there can be a proper comparison. They're both awesome it different ways. If we're just talking about Phantom Menace versus FOTR, then I go for FOTR hands down. I love Star Wars, but I found FOTR far better than Phantom Menace. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Tolkien, so maybe that's expected, like I would think a Star Wars buff would say Phantom Menace was the better movie.

Barb^-^

[Spaceman Spiff]

FOTR, easily. It was just a more engaging story. Really, I can't see how anyone can objectivly choose Phantom Menance, corporate poduct designed to squeeze as many dollars out of our wallets as possible, over FOTR, a brillant realization of a dedicated fan to one of the best received books of the century.

[Heehaw]

FOTR has just as much marketing muscle behind it as Phantom Menace had. You get all the same bells and whistles. Maybe not as much as SW, but it's all still there. There's a ton of toys(really cool ones now that I think about it), fast food, school stuff, food product tie-ins, videogames, you name it it's probably out there. That's a reality in today's world, though. It doesn't bother me at all.

I'll agree that LOTR was a better movie than Menace, but I did still enjoy the SW flick. I've heard brilliant, BRILLIANT things about Episode II. Stuff that returns to the glory of Empire Strikes Back. But, whereas I'm looking forward to it, I'm also looking forward to Two Towers just as much.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
Lucas let us down with Phantom.



Hey, speak for yourself! I loved Phantom Menace. In fact, for me, its tied with Empire Strikes Back as my favorite of the series so far. It always ticks me off when some SW "fan" proclaims disappoint for all of us - that's just plain BS. Yes, there were people that were disappointed in it. But I know a lot more people that loved it than I do people that were disappointed in it. Please speak for yourself in the future, and not for all of us.

That said, I'd have to say I'd have a hard time choosing between LotR and Ep. 1. I never cared for the source material for LotR, but I enjoyed the movie greatly. It was ceratinly a well done flick. But I'm not sure I see anything about it that makes it any "better" than Ep. 1 either. I guess its a tie for me.

[RockItShipper]

Personally, I prefer the source material to LOTR... but FOTR's a very well-adapted movie even if most of my fave characters aren't in it- and Legolas and Gimli don't get much focus (what did they do in Lothlorien at night, anyway?)

I've loved Episode 1 ever since I first saw it... It's a movie leading to a bad ending that no one realizes. And I think the more I hear about Episode 2 (I have the comic), the better it gets. Even Jar Jar. I'd say he does the most hateful thing in Episode 2. :cool:

[Stupendous Man]

Posted by CLAYFACE

Hey, speak for yourself! I loved Phantom Menace. In fact, for me, its tied with Empire Strikes Back as my favorite of the series so far. It always ticks me off when some SW "fan" proclaims disappoint for all of us -



I think you read me all wrong Clayface.

I wasnt speaking for everyone, I started out by asking everyone to voice there opinion on this topic.

Its only my opinion that Lucas let us down with Phantom.
However its an opinion that I thought was pretty much a general consesus (atleast backed by film critics and a majority of Star Wars fans who have access to media outlets i.e. internet print etc).

Of course though , everything is a matter of opinion.

I however havent met anyone over the age of 19 who was
happy with Phantom Menace.

Im sure those people exist , you may be one of them.

My only point was to critique these movies and compare them
objectively.

You say you "loved" Phantom Menace .. Id love to hear what it was exactly about it that you loved .


Posted by CLAYFACE

But I'm not sure I see anything about it that makes it any "better" than Ep. 1 either.



I think a pretty detailed arguement could be made about
what makes LOTR a better movie than Phantom.

14 Oscar nominations and 4 Oscar wins being the least
persuasive of the arguements.

I was hoping that this thread would be about people vocalizing
what those arguements are rather than just saying you
prefer A over B.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man


I think you read me all wrong Clayface.

I wasnt speaking for everyone, I started out by asking everyone to voice there opinion on this topic.

Its only my opinion that Lucas let us down with Phantom.



By saying he let "us" down, you're speaking for everyone. By saying he let "you" down, you're speaking for yourself.




However its an opinion that I thought was pretty much a general consesus (atleast backed by film critics and a majority of Star Wars fans who have access to media outlets i.e. internet print etc).



I don't agree. Yeah, there's a lot of whining about it from the "hardcore" star wars fans on the net - but there's a large fan community that doesn't express thier feelings on the movie on the net. All the people that I know that loved the movie don't bother hanging out in boards likes these, and the few that do don't bother to write threads about it, because the more vocal fanboys will just come up with the same negative comments. I don't think judging the general concensus opinion should be based alone on what the internet community says.




I however havent met anyone over the age of 19 who was
happy with Phantom Menace.



Well, you certainly hang out with a most different crowd than I, because everyone over 19 that I know in "real life" (as opposed to cyber life), loved the movie! ;)




You say you "loved" Phantom Menace .. Id love to hear what it was exactly about it that you loved .



I just loved everything about the movie. What is there not to love??

I loved the child-like innocence that is portrayed through the entire movie. It was intentionally done - this movie was supposed to be a fun kids movie because its supposed to reflect the somewhat more innocent time of Anakin's life, and I think Lucas did just what he set out to do with it. Now, as Anakin grows in his life, the movies' level of maturity will grow as well, getting darker to reflect Anakin's growing darkness.

I felt much more emotional attachment to the characters in Phantom Menace than I did to the characters in LotR. I whooped when Anakin won the pod race, my heart sunk when I watched Gungans killed on the battle feld, I literally teared up when Qui-Gon was cut down, I felt OB1's rage and sorrow when he saw Qui-Gon go down, and felt vindicated when he finally cut down Maul. The movie drew a genuine emotional response from me throughout the entire time. LotR didn't. While I very much enjoyed LotR, and think it was a great movie to keep me entertained, it had no emotional impact on me at all.


To me a "great" movie is one that can truely draw me in and make me feel emotions. Ep 1 did that for me, LotR didn't.




14 Oscar nominations and 4 Oscar wins being the least
persuasive of the arguements.



Yeah, the very least persuasive. I'm not one to judge a movie by its awards. Some terrible movies have gotten awards just because the competition wasn't all that impressive. And some fantastic movies have gotten completely snubbed. Oscars don't mean much to me when deciding how good a movie is.

[James]

I agree with the Clayed one in terms of not letting awards justify the definite merits of a movie. Certain aspects maybe, but as an overall estimation I think it can be a poor assessment.

I partially agree with Clayface in that TPM wasn't a terrible movie. it just simply had a hard act to follow. I wouldn't say it was flawless.

I'm going to ignore Jar Jar as that is an obvious point and move to Anakin. I think here was the biggest error on behalf of the film.

Specifically it terms of his character development, while I appluad Lucas keeping him innocent I didn't feel that there was even the slightest dark side to his personna.

When I say dark side, I am not referring to it's obvious interpretation, or even a nasty cold element, I'm speaking of some element which people might as an audience percieve as a foreshadow to the future.

Audiences need to be involved in the story and I think Lucas missed out here in giving the story any real substatial foreshadow to it's successors/predecessors.

For instance, as Luke showed in ESB, it would have seemed logical that a degree of impetuous in Anakin would have been a worthwhile characterization which would create a stronger bond between this film and the later ones.

In fact, I think he went out of his way to avoid this.

Anakin leaps into the fighter - as he is told - accidently activates the ship while trying to shoot the drones, accidently takes it into space where he zooms about and saves the day.

I think instead of such a Disneyesque plotline, it would have been better if he had ignored his orders and taken the ship to the fight because he wanted to help within the battle. Not a nasty side to his character, but an impetuous one. He thinks he can help, so he disregards his leaders request. That would have not only added to the film in terms of character development, it would have made for a more believable storyline (and who left a childs helmet in that fighter...?)

That said, I enjoyed the movie. It was fun, fast, well paced and visually gorgeous. It kept within the myth while exploiting some new ideas. Not a bad film, just not as good as the others.

However, I do think LOTRs was better as a movie. Whether as a series it can compete, we will have to wait and see!

[Joe Wagner]

Hmmm...this is like asking who's better - the Yankees or the Expos? LOTR was an incredible movie and while I liked Episode 1 LOTR is a movie that I could watch over and over again without having to pray that somehow the movie will be different this time around and that Jar Jar will die.

LOTR gets my vote on this one!

-Joe!

[bfmusashi]

Interesting. Though the Phantom Menace characters might have been unique on paper, none of the character-driven scenes had any real impact on my feelings. (There weren't nerely enough character-driven scenes, anyway.) If Lucas had developed a few of the Jedis more, I might have been more emotional towards the characters. Honestly, there really wasn't a character that I personally liked in episode I. Anakin was okay, but I somehow feel that he should have gotten more screentime. (The same goes for the Princess, though her personality was a bit more established.) As for Obi Wan and Qui Gon, I didn't much like them. While Obi Wan's death scene in A New Hope was a tearjerker, Qui Gon's death was incredibly predictable, at least for me. As for Darth Maul, he was a truly evil and great villian... But, he was never really established, either. (Perhaps it's because he only says maybe six whole words in the entire movie.)

The Phantom Menace had a great story, but I just feel that it should have been excuted better.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Clayface


Hey, speak for yourself! I loved Phantom Menace. In fact, for me, its tied with Empire Strikes Back as my favorite of the series so far. It always ticks me off when some SW "fan" proclaims disappoint for all of us - that's just plain BS


I thought Phantom Menace was great as well. It surprises me that so many have a problem with it. Yes, there were weak aspects, but minor when looking at the movie as a whole.

In comparing the two movies, I do think FOTR is better. Storywise, it was stronger. But like someone else mentioned, AOTC does look like it's going to be exceptional. It will be interesting to see whether the Two Towers can match it.

[DR. BELCH]

Don't discount the power of name recognition. Star Wars and "George Lucas" are pretty much household words, whereas "Tolkien", like most great writers, is largely unknown outside of academia (and I'll confess I have never read him).
How many of us have watched a mediocre movie because a big name is attatched to it? "Phantom Menace" may have enjoyed mixed reviews (I'll admit the first showing didn't make an indelible impression on me; maybe another viewing next month will)...and "Clones" may be the biggest load of horsepuckey to slide down the chute...but it'll suck in people on the basis of the name factor and the curiosity factor. I say the grosses will be within a half a million dollars of each other, and it'll be hot and heavy, back and forth for two, three weeks straight.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by SJJ

Specifically it terms of his character development, while I appluad Lucas keeping him innocent I didn't feel that there was even the slightest dark side to his personna.

When I say dark side, I am not referring to it's obvious interpretation, or even a nasty cold element, I'm speaking of some element which people might as an audience percieve as a foreshadow to the future.

Audiences need to be involved in the story and I think Lucas missed out here in giving the story any real substatial foreshadow to it's successors/predecessors.



What about his angered talk of being a slave? And coming back to free them? Seemed to be some deep anger there to me.

What about the entire testing scene with Yoda? The way he got snippy with Yoda, and everything that was said between the two?

That all sent chills up my spine - all of it was forshadowing to Anakin's dark side.

There are several parts in the movie as well that show the darker emotions in the character. Any more foreshadowing and hints and they would have been spelling it all out rather blatantly, IMO.

Besides, I think they needed keep him as light-hearted and child-like as possible - to make it stark contrast to what we see in the later films. To make you sit there and wonder "how does this great little kid - this little kid that seems so normal - become such monster?"




Anakin leaps into the fighter - as he is told - accidently activates the ship while trying to shoot the drones, accidently takes it into space where he zooms about and saves the day.

I think instead of such a Disneyesque plotline, it would have been better if he had ignored his orders and taken the ship to the fight because he wanted to help within the battle. Not a nasty side to his character, but an impetuous one. He thinks he can help, so he disregards his leaders request. That would have not only added to the film in terms of character development, it would have made for a more believable storyline (and who left a childs helmet in that fighter...?)



I see what you're saying here, but I don't agree. We got plenty of the impetuous boy act from Luke (and somewhat from Han) in the later three movies - doing it here would have been overkill, IMO. I think it was more important to show that he really is trying to be the best he can be. Even though he wants to take action, he's trying hard to not disobey, and get OB1 and Qui-Gon in any more trouble. He wants to be good for them, but its his own destiny that pulls into the thick of it all. It makes it all that more tragic that later he becomes the dark inhuman thing that we see in Eps 4, 5, and 6.

[JTurner954]

Stupendous, I am 21 and I liked Star Wars Episode 1.

[Stupendous Man]

I liked Phantom Menace to JTurner.

I love Star Wars and it would take a lot for me to
not like a Star Wars movie.

I was just disapointed with the film.
I think it could , and should have been better.

I agree with some of the points SJJ made ,
if your going to do a movie about Anakin as an
8 year old ( which I wish they wouldnt have ..
a quick glimpse of him at 8 probably would have been
enough .. 2 and a 1/2 hours was overkill IMO and
was meant to pander to younger audiences) they
should have made more of an effort to show the
seeds of Anakin's eventual downfall.

With so many years between production of
Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace ..its
hard to believe this was the best script they
could come up with.

And Im very annoyed, personally, with some of the
glaring loopholes and inconsistencies between
A New Hope - ROTJEDI and Phantom Menace.

Darth Vader built 3CPO ?

Not only does this not make sense .. given the
interaction we saw between 3PO and Vader in Empire .

Why was it even necessary ?
It just seemed lame to me.

And Obi - Wan stated in New Hope he didnt recognize
the droids ( 3CPO & R2 ) .

Granted , maybee he was lying - but why would he
have to lie ?

And 3PO didnt recognize Obi -wan?
Maybee they'll explain that R2 & 3PO's
memory banks were erased after episode III ..
but does it seem like a shame to anyone that
these contrived scenarios are even necessary?

IMO they dont create a better Star Wars story ..

There so many other little issues like this in
Phantom that really detracted from my complete
enjoyment of this movie.

I just dont see myself ...or many others (IMO )
watching this movie over and over again with the
awe that we watched Empire ,years from now.

I think Phantom benefitted mostly from the fact that
we the fans were so starved for new Star Wars
material .. almost anything would have pleased us.

Only time will tell if Phantom will hold up as well
as the other Star Wars flicks once this new trilogy
is complete.

[Jedi Knight]

Ok, lots of good points made by everyone, but now a true Jedi Knight has to voice his opinion. ;)

Obviously I'm a fan of Star Wars, and I don't think my personal opinion will add anything to this discussion, so I just wanted to say one thing: It's impossible to compare them!

The problem is that Star Wars fans like TPM better and LOTR fans like FOTR better, and I think the reason for this is not only sentimentality, but because both of these movies ARE NOT independent. In other words, if you watched either of these movies without EVER seeing the others in the trilogy, they would BOTH suck, because neither of them is conclusive.

I've never read the LOTR books, but I already know the plotline for Episode II and II (at least the general plot). I enjoyed both movies, but I liked TPM slightly more because I understood everything that went down, especially the ramifications it has on the next 2 parts of the trilogy. At the end of FOTR, I didn't know what the hell had happened and I was very dissatisfied with the ending (because I felt there WASN'T one).

Anyway, I think that's part of the reason why there's such a huge split between the fans of each series. Pure knowledge. As for the casual movie-going public, most liked LOTR more because they hated something small in TPM, whether it be Jar Jar, or the kid who played Anakin, or whatever. With LOTR, all you have to do is sit back and wait for the action.

Well, if anyone wants to agree or disagree, please let me know, 'cause this is only a theory. ;)

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
I agree with some of the points SJJ made ,
if your going to do a movie about Anakin as an
8 year old ( which I wish they wouldnt have ..
a quick glimpse of him at 8 probably would have been
enough .. 2 and a 1/2 hours was overkill IMO and
was meant to pander to younger audiences) they
should have made more of an effort to show the
seeds of Anakin's eventual downfall.


And how do you know they haven't? We don't know what his downfall was yet. Seems to me the whole slave thing, the set-up of the beginnings of the Emporer, and the resistence he met up with in the Jedi council are all going to be the seeds of his downfall.




And Im very annoyed, personally, with some of the
glaring loopholes and inconsistencies between
A New Hope - ROTJEDI and Phantom Menace.

Darth Vader built 3CPO ?

Not only does this not make sense .. given the
interaction we saw between 3PO and Vader in Empire .

Why was it even necessary ?
It just seemed lame to me.



Why doesn't it make sense given the interaction in Empire?

Was it necessary? Maybe not.

Was it lame? Well, hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions on that one.




And Obi - Wan stated in New Hope he didnt recognize
the droids ( 3CPO & R2 ) .

Granted , maybee he was lying - but why would he
have to lie ?



Good question, isn't it? And to me, that's part of what's interesting about the movie. These sorts of unanswered questions are what I find intriguing, and make me want to come back for me. For me, they don't take away from the film, but rather add to it.




And 3PO didnt recognize Obi -wan?
Maybee they'll explain that R2 & 3PO's
memory banks were erased after episode III ..
but does it seem like a shame to anyone that
these contrived scenarios are even necessary?



Doesn't seem like a shame to me. In fact, I was rather curious as to why 3PO didn't recognize him, and it never crossed my mind that it could have been a memory bank erasure that did it until I read that on some of the Star Wars boards. And once I read it, it made a lot of sense to me. I don't have a problem with that explanation. What will be interesting is to see if this is actually what Lucas does - he's well aware that's what we're all expecting.




I just dont see myself ...or many others (IMO )
watching this movie over and over again with the
awe that we watched Empire ,years from now.



Well, again, that's all very subjective. I know people that won't watch Empire again at all - they think its the worst of the flicks. And I know others, myself included, that have watched Ep1 more times than the other three films.




I think Phantom benefitted mostly from the fact that
we the fans were so starved for new Star Wars
material .. almost anything would have pleased us.



Actually, I think its just the other way around - I think it was hurt the most because fans were so starved for new Star Wars. Fans had built it up to such high expectations in thier minds that Ep 1 could never have lived up to the hype for many. The first three movies are, IMO, just as flawed if not more flawed than Ep1.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
The problem is that Star Wars fans like TPM better and LOTR fans like FOTR better, and I think the reason for this is not only sentimentality, but because both of these movies ARE NOT independent. In other words, if you watched either of these movies without EVER seeing the others in the trilogy, they would BOTH suck, because neither of them is conclusive.


I totally agree with you there. They really are both part of a bigger whole. And you can't really judge each by itself, but rather how it fits into that whole.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by Stupendous man
I think Phantom benefitted mostly from the fact that we the fans were so starved for new Star Wars material .. almost anything would have pleased us.

Exactly. Phantom Menance probably weakened the franchise more than anything.

I think the movies greatest misstep was not focusing on Palpatine and Darth Maul enough. The coolness of the original three Star Wars were always more about the fall of the Empire and Darth Vader, not the Luke and the good guys. If I could adjust the movie in any way, I'd probably lessen the focus on Anakin and move it towards the mechanations of Palpatine. To do this, you'd probably have to get rid of the pod race subplot, but that's alright; it was nothing more than an ad for a video game, anyway.

Still, I liked the movie and probably rank it the 3rd best of the Star Wars series (above Jedi)

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

I think the movies greatest misstep was not focusing on Palpatine and Darth Maul enough. The coolness of the original three Star Wars were always more about the fall of the Empire and Darth Vader, not the Luke and the good guys.



While that may have been the "coolness" of the original three for you, that certainly wasn't the intended focus of the original three movies, and I think to completely change the focus like that would have very much hurt the group of movies as a whole.

[Stupendous Man]

Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Exactly. Phantom Menance probably weakened the franchise more than anything.



I agree Spaceman.


Spaceman Spiff

To do this, you'd probably have to get rid of the pod race subplot, but that's alright; it was nothing more than an ad for a video game, anyway.



I didnt even want to get into the subject of George Lucas as a sell out. That would just anger too many people and is slightly subjective.

But I think its hard to dismiss the arguement when you discover that the video game was created simultaneous to the movie.

It wasnt that Sega saw this scene in the movie and said
"hey thatd make a good game" but rather Lucas saying
"I need a scene that I can market as a video game .. ".

While you cant blame the man for wanting to make a buck ,
I think it shows Lucas's mindset of bieng more concerned
about marketing and less concerned about telling a good story.
(IMO ) ...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Origanally posted by Stupendous Man
While you cant blame the man for wanting to make a buck, I think it shows Lucas's mindset of bieng more concerned
about marketing and less concerned about telling a good story.

This was the point I was trying to get across with my first post. FOTR didn't have any of this kind of stuff within the movie.

To Clayface, I think the change I focus would've done nothing but improve the series. As it is, the movie is mostly about Anikin's freedom and becoming a Jedi. That's fine, but it doesn't need nearly as much time devoted to it. What was more intriguing (to me, and most of my friends, at least) where the scenes with Palpatine and at the Senate. Remember, these first three movies are as much about the birth of the Empire as they are of the coming of Darth Vader.

[Stupendous Man]

CLAYFACE responding to Spaceman Spiff


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

I think the movies greatest misstep was not focusing on Palpatine and Darth Maul enough. The coolness of the original three Star Wars were always more about the fall of the Empire and Darth Vader, not the Luke and the good guys.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


While that may have been the "coolness" of the original three for you, that certainly wasn't the intended focus of the original three movies, and I think to completely change the focus like that would have very much hurt the group of movies as a whole.


ACTUALLY CLAY that wasnt just the "coolness" for Spaceman...
it was the "coolness" for George Lucas ..

And that indeed was the "intended focus" of the movie if
George Lucas's opinion on the subject holds any credebility for
you.


LUCAS has stated repeatedly that Star Wars episodes IV-VI arent
about Luke Skywalker and the Rebels but it was always about
DARTH VADER.

That he intended for the joy of the audience to be the discovery
of the fact that the trilogies werent about what the audience
originally suspected.

Hes quoted as saying "the first Star Wars trilogy is about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker " the second trilogy will
"recount his fall from grace " and tell us how he became Darth.

So maybee you missed the intended focus of the films , atleast as far as George Lucas is concerned.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man

I didnt even want to get into the subject of George Lucas as a sell out. That would just anger too many people and is slightly subjective.



Very subjective. Don't go down that road (though you've already started to).




But I think its hard to dismiss the arguement when you discover that the video game was created simultaneous to the movie.

It wasnt that Sega saw this scene in the movie and said
"hey thatd make a good game" but rather Lucas saying
"I need a scene that I can market as a video game .. ".



Umm, did you ever think that maybe the scene is in there because the man has a huge love/obsession with racing? American Graffiti anyone? And you do know he had plans for this type of thing back when he was doing the original flicks, don't you?

Be careful of the accusations you make.

[Clayface]

ACTUALLY CLAY that wasnt just the "coolness" for Spaceman...
it was the "coolness" for George Lucas ..

And that indeed was the "intended focus" of the movie if
George Lucas's opinion on the subject holds any credebility for
you.

LUCAS has stated repeatedly that Star Wars episodes IV-VI arent
about Luke Skywalker and the Rebels but it was always about
DARTH VADER.



EXACTLY!!!

The movies are about Anakin, not the Empire, or Palpatine, or the Sith, or Maul. They're about Anakin.

Changing the focus as Spaceman was saying would take away from the true focus - Anakin.

[Stupendous Man]

I can tell your passionate about Star Wars clay ..
and I respect that.

I love the series too.

Im just trying to be objective about something I
love.


* * *

In your opinion - how would you rate the 4 star wars movies
from best to worst ?


Ive always seen it as

1. Empire (best )

2. A New Hope (fresh & exciting)

3. Return of the Jedi (IMO the weakest of the
original trilogy and the least mature . Ewoks anyone? )

4. Phantom Menace (just when you thought it couldnt
get worse than Ewoks - enter Jar Jar Binks.)


* * *

Most everyone Ive ever discussed this with list them this way ...
But i was surprised that you said Phantom was tied for you with
Empire .

So Im curious what your take is .

[Clayface]

My ranking of 'em:

1) Empire Strikes Back
1a) Phantom Menace (only slightly lower than ESB for me - you just can't beat the somber ending of EBS, IMO).

2) A New Hope

And last would be Return of the Jedi - way, way below the others. I really disliked RoTJ.

For some reason, I wasn't the least bothered by Jar Jar. In fact, I rather liked him. I went into the movie hearing all this bad buzz about him on the internet, and really went in expecting the worst. Because my expectations for him were so low, when he came on, I found he wasn't that bad at all. And, by the end of the flick, he had grown on me, especially so because i realized how perfectly he fit in with the innocence theme of the movie.

[Jedi Knight]

Clayface, throughout this entire thread, you've worked too hard. I loved TPM as much as you did, but defending it is an uphill battle. In case you haven't noticed, you can never change some people's minds. I've argued repeatedly with my friends until my throat was sore (I'm not kidding), but some people just hate with a passion. I personally listen to Yoda, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

As for the order of the movies, I can never choose! It's like asking which of your children do you love the most! Well, maybe not but it's still a tough choice. Overall, I liked ESB and ANH the same (the better ones), and I liked TPM and ROTJ the same. But the strange thing is, I liked all the movies for different reasons.

Finally, for all those who didn't like TPM: How can you possibly deny the coolness of Darth Maul and that final duel? That final duel alone elevates the movie beyond any "normal" film! :)

[James]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Clayface, throughout this entire thread, you've worked too hard. I loved TPM as much as you did, but defending it is an uphill battle. In case you haven't noticed, you can never change some people's minds. I've argued repeatedly with my friends until my throat was sore (I'm not kidding), but some people just hate with a passion. I personally listen to Yoda, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

Finally, for all those who didn't like TPM: How can you possibly deny the coolness of Darth Maul and that final duel? That final duel alone elevates the movie beyond any "normal" film! :)

I disagree. You can change people's minds - but that shouldn't be the point. The point is to open people's minds to new ideas and perspectives and if either side of this argument has made the other look at their own standpoint - even if just to justify it further - then they have achieved the goal.

No one is expected to turn round and shout out, 'Dear Lord I've seen the light!' - but alternate opinions make us think - and prove for entertaining debate.

Following Clayface's move to a top 4 as of such...:

1. Empire Strikes Back. Unbeatable, and perhaps part of the downfall of the TPM and ROTJ is that this was such a unique and mind blowing sequel - could they ever compare?
2. Star Wars. The ultimate fairly tale. The gallant knight, the princess trapped in the dark knights fortress. Merlin and Arthur.
3. Return Of The Jedi - Rates above TPM for sheer atmosphere in the latter section. The gothic battle which revolved more around emotional energy than snazzy fight moves. Let down by the rather mish mashy beginning, the Ewoks, the rather done before Death Star battle and Harrison Ford's refusal to take the script seriously.
4. The Phantom Menace. A more even and well constructed film than ROTJ, however lacking any definitive character for me - Jar Jar is annoying, but not the problem with the movie which for me suffers from Lucas' need to dumb down elements. The aforementioned Anakin taking the fighter to battle lacked potential characterization, the Gungan battle failed to live up to expectation thanks to the lack of death.
With any battle comes losses and every victory is built on tragedy (even ROTJ had ONE Ewok die!). Not here. Watch as the emotionally (and therefore expendable) droids wander aimless being tripped over by Jar JAr and his goofy friends. Again, it felt like a wasted opportunity to show the need for bravery and the need for courage in the face of adversity.

That said, it was fun to watch. Well paced (FAR better paced than ROTJ), with some interesting design work and some unusual choices in altering the myth. (Interesting to see how C-3P0 turns out in the next movie). The Anakin/mother scene was quite touching. Yes, the fight scenes truely showed what proper Jedi (and not half trained ones/aged ones/cyborg ones) could really do. The pod race was fun - although the sudden influx of silly muppet like characters did the film no favours. The cast, while a little unremarkable, didn't damage the movie and some of the new worlds were perfect.

As for Anakin... I still think more could have been done - I hope in the light of the next movie, some of the fans will be a little more forgiving of this one!

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
I agree with some of the points SJJ made ,
if your going to do a movie about Anakin as an
8 year old ( which I wish they wouldnt have ..
a quick glimpse of him at 8 probably would have been
enough .. 2 and a 1/2 hours was overkill IMO and
was meant to pander to younger audiences) they
should have made more of an effort to show the
seeds of Anakin's eventual downfall.

For Anakin's fall to have an impact, I think you have to establish that he was a normal kid with good intent for the future. If dark elements were planted in him from the beginning, it would undermine the impact of his eventual fall. It wouldn't be a shock. There'd be a sense of "of course he fell, the seeds of evil were there from the very beginning."

In "Empire," we were so shocked that Vader was Luke's father, because we had believed Anakin was a good, noble Jedi Knight. We had absolutely no reason to believe Anakin had been on a dark path. The ending of ESB never would have had the impact it did if we already new Luke's father had dark tendencies.

Given that we know Anakin will be Darth Vader, when TPM was released, we were already waiting for the fall. But think from the perspective of one who starts watching the series from TPM. They would have no idea what's in store for Anakin and the Republic. When the moment comes that Anakin joins Palpitine, the impact would be huge. And that's when the tragedy is really felt, because Anakin was a good kid that fell down the wrong path.

[Clayface]

Exactly, DarkAngel. That's exactly the way I see it.

[Scythemantis]

Frankly I liked Bakshi`s animated Hobbit better than lotr...

[Joe Tully]

Originally posted by Sting chameleon
Frankly I liked Bakshi`s animated Hobbit better than lotr...

Bakshi didn't do Hobbit. He did LOTR and Rankin-Bass did Hobbit and Return Of The King.

[cjshoup]

That is a tough one.

This is my take.

LOTR had something to build on, SW:TPE was just made to start a story. (Remember Episode 4 was made, then Empire Strikes Back was better.) I feel that Attack of the Clones will be better.

[Stupendous Man]

Posted by CJ

LOTR had something to build on, SW:TPE was just made to start a story. (Remember Episode 4 was made, then Empire Strikes Back was better.) I feel that Attack of the Clones will be better.




I dont think your point is well made here CJ (no offense).

LOTR has less to build on than Phantom .

LOTR starts a story fresh and the audience has no frame of
refference to the characters and world of middle earth.

Phantom has 3 movies to build on. Phantom may be a prequel
but the original trilogy gives the audience a frame of refference ..
the audience understands what Jedi are and are comfortable with the universe Lucas has created.

So In this case I would say the opposite of your point is true..
As Obi-Wan said best its all a matter of "your point of view".

~

I also have high hopes for Attack of the Clones.

I think with that Lucas and his people had a lot of time to
consider the objections by a large number of his fan base
regarding Phantom, and despite what Lucas's people may say,
I think those objections were taken into account.

I think Attack of the Clones may surprise us and turn out to be the best Star Wars weve seen to date ( I hope !)

~

But between Fellowship and Phantom Id have to say Fellowship
is a much stronger film and a more powerfull opening chapter in
a trilogy than Phantom (IMO).

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Stupendous Man
But between Fellowship and Phantom Id have to say Fellowship
is a much stronger film and a more powerfull opening chapter in
a trilogy than Phantom (IMO).

You're right about Fellowship being more powerful. However, I don't think Lucas wanted Phantom to be the film that would build the story. It seems like he just wanted to put some events into motion, while using the movie mostly to show how the Republic was Pre-Empire and before the dark times. By the end of the movie, Palpatine was Chancellor, Anakin was Obi-wan's apprentice, and Yoda and the Council were aware of the return of the Sith. Now the stage is set for the story to begin.

I think Episodes 2 and 3 are the movies Lucas intends to be powerful, with ep 2 making the major strides in moving things along. Episode 1 was the basic setup, and Episode 3 will be the culmination of the major events established in ep 2.

Lucas has more movies during which the story can unfold, so I think he felt he could afford to approach ep1 the way he did. FOTR doesn't really have the luxury. It was meant to begin the major storytelling.