Superman power comparison

[Sapphic Amazon]

This is for the Superman fans complaining about the de-powered depiction in the JL cartoon. There have always been superheroes who can/would hold their own or even defeat the Kryptonian. (I no longer read the comics, but I still know of some examples.)

1. Dr. Fate- Superhumanly strong and invulnerable, thus affording him time to make use of his vast array of mystical powers to defeat Superman. (Magic is a Superman Achilles' heel.)
2. Captain Atom- His super speed, enhanced strength and limited vulnerability would allow him time to make use of his radiation powers. He could emit radiation similar to what a red star would emit to neutralize or even kill Superman. (Red sun radiation is another Kal-El weakness.)
3. Captain Marvel- He was Superman's equal at WHIZ Comics, DC sued and forced the company's bankruptcy, bought (stole?) the rights to their characters and have misused Cap mostly since. At the intended height of his powers, Captain Marvel and Superman could fight for a fortnight and still not have a winner.
4. Dr. Light (the Japanese lady)- She can create and manipulate any form of light at any wavelength, including duplicating red sun radiation.
5. Element Lad aka Alchemist- He can alter all the elements (see the Periodic table) and therefore can turn any form of matter into kryptonite, or any other substance harmful to a yellow sun-irradiated Krytonian.
6. Firestorm- Again, a being who can rearrange the molecular structure of matter, thus kryptonite again.
7. Deadman- He could take over the body of Superman and be in complete charge. And unless there are cosmic or divine rules to prevent it, he could manipulate Supes into immobilizing or extinguishing himself.
8. Green Lanterns- A green lantern ring has almost unlimited energy. The ring's only limits are the imagination and will power of the wielder. (Give a GL ring to Bruce Wayne, or Marvel's Victor Von Doom and see Supes get the snot beat out of him.)
9. Mon-El- a Daxamite is the equivalent of a Kryptonian. (Get a 6'8" Daxamite who knows how to fight and Clark gets his head handed to him.)
10. Orion- Another in Superman's power class, but a being trained to be a warrior from birth.
11. Spectre- Almost God-like, Superman is less than an insect compared to the Spectre.

I didn't even list those who could give Superman a tussle- Powergirl, Supergirl, Lobo, Steel, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, any powerful mystic, any powerful telepath who could shut down or destroy his mind, any cosmic being, etc.

I won't even get into villains, like Mr. Mxyzptlk who if he chose the role of assassin over prankster would easily kill The Man of Steel. Superman's tough, but he never was the "ultimate" in power. He's simply the most popular and recognizable of the powerful elite.

Sapphic Amazon

[SimonMoon5]

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
(I no longer read the comics, but I still know of some examples.)

2. Captain Atom- His super speed, enhanced strength and limited vulnerability would allow him time to make use of his radiation powers. He could emit radiation similar to what a red star would emit to neutralize or even kill Superman. (Red sun radiation is another Kal-El weakness.)


Red Sun radiation is no longer a weakness of the comic book Superman. Furthermore, I don't believe that Captain Atom has ever been seen using his power with this level of precision (though Sun Boy of the LSH did).


Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon

8. Green Lanterns- A green lantern ring has almost unlimited energy. The ring's only limits are the imagination and will power of the wielder.


And, of course, back in the day, Hal Jordan (when possessed by an alien) used his ring to create a planet-sized chunk of kryptonite temporarily.



Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
I won't even get into villains, like Mr. Mxyzptlk who if he chose the role of assassin over prankster would easily kill The Man of Steel. Superman's tough, but he never was the "ultimate" in power.

In terms of a combination of pure brute strength combined with experience, Superman (in the comics) usually was and should be number one. He shouldn't be *easily* beaten by brute strength. Taking advantage of his weaknesses is one thing. Having some two-bit thug build a robot that can kick his butt is quite another.

Yeah, there are DC characters who are in Superman's league, characters who also happen to have all the same powers he does (Daxamites, other Kryptonians, etc). That's not the complaint that people have regarding the cartoon Superman in Justice League, of course. It's that the characters that we've been shown giving Superman difficulties shouldn't be giving him so much trouble.

[Sapphic Amazon]

As far as Superman being less powerful in the cartoon, so is GL, Flash, Martian Manhunter and even (slightly) Wonder Woman. It is easier in the comics to make use of multiple characters with tremendous powers. Unless you want every cartoon episode's conflict to be against Darkseid, Neron and cosmic beings, I find the toning down of powers adds to the writer's ability to make more entertaining episodes. Besides, DC is notorious for having great fluctuations of powers over the years. Even Superman has gone from having to duke it out with pitiful musclebound losers and giant chimps to, in other stories, flying through the sun and shattering planets. The Flash has had hundreds of comic stories where the writer failed to use logic regarding the speed of someone who, at times, was as fast as the speed of light. Barry Allen's powers were mishandled on a regular basis, so was Hal Jordan's. DC always had too many semi-deities flying around. I think the stories, especially so far in this cartoon series, benefit greatly from the toning down some of the heroes, and even villains, powers. My advice, stop worrying over Superman's inability to completely dominate each fracas, and enjoy the show.

Sapphic Amazon

[Stupendous Man]

I agree with Sapphic 100%.

Ive been making this point on the boards for a long time.

What would be the point of watching a show where Superman
shows up and beats the snot out of every villan without breaking
a sweat?

And it is a "team show" its the "Justice League" not the
"Six Superheroes watching Superman easily defeat supervillans
singlehandedly show".

Whats really important is that this show have compelling interesting stories which feature many of the cast members.

I dont know about those who gripe about a depowered superman . . . but I dont need Superman to be the most
powerful person in any situation .. I need a superman
who is true to the basic character we all know and love -
a true hero who fights on for truth justice and the
american way - despite (gasp) fighting opponents who
are as powerfull - or heaven forbid .. more powerfull than him !!

Kudos to the production staff for having the common sense to
depower superman to produce more compelling and interesting
stories.

[Nightwing]

I'm with Sapphic on this one. Personally I'd like the issue gently changed more in favor of the characters' powers, but yeah with all those superheros in one show it seems like it's just something you have to deal with. I'm sure Darkseid has more important things to do than take over Earth EVERY week. :)

[Harvey Dent]

Personally, I feel that Superman shouldn't even be in the Justice League. If they're not going to handle him properly, then they shouldn't even be handling him at all. I'd much rather see a Year One animated version of the JLA than a JL Superman who always has to apologize for every intrusion he makes.

[The Green Hornet]

I'm sure Darkseid has more important things to do than take over Earth EVERY week


not really

after all the subject of darkseids dreams is on earth-- the ANTI LIFE EQUATION

he wants it bad

and all his will is bent on claiming it from earth

[RorShaq]

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
This is for the Superman fans complaining about the de-powered depiction in the JL cartoon. There have always been superheroes who can/would hold their own or even defeat the Kryptonian. (I no longer read the comics, but I still know of some examples.)

1. Dr. Fate- Superhumanly strong and invulnerable, thus affording him time to make use of his vast array of mystical powers to defeat Superman. (Magic is a Superman Achilles' heel.)

Maybe. But Superman doesn't die at the mere sight of magic, he just isn't Super-resistant to its effects.

2. Captain Atom- His super speed, enhanced strength and limited vulnerability would allow him time to make use of his radiation powers. He could emit radiation similar to what a red star would emit to neutralize or even kill Superman. (Red sun radiation is another Kal-El weakness.)

3. Captain Marvel- He was Superman's equal at WHIZ Comics, DC sued and forced the company's bankruptcy, bought (stole?) the rights to their characters and have misused Cap mostly since. At the intended height of his powers, Captain Marvel and Superman could fight for a fortnight and still not have a winner.

He's basically an inferior copy. If you can't have Superman, Marvel would do, but come on.

4. Dr. Light (the Japanese lady)- She can create and manipulate any form of light at any wavelength, including duplicating red sun radiation.

See Captain Atom.

5. Element Lad aka Alchemist- He can alter all the elements (see the Periodic table) and therefore can turn any form of matter into kryptonite, or any other substance harmful to a yellow sun-irradiated Krytonian.

Kryptonite has been historically near-impossible to reproduce

6. Firestorm- Again, a being who can rearrange the molecular structure of matter, thus kryptonite again.

Wrong

7. Deadman- He could take over the body of Superman and be in complete charge. And unless there are cosmic or divine rules to prevent it, he could manipulate Supes into immobilizing or extinguishing himself.

Probably right.

8. Green Lanterns- A green lantern ring has almost unlimited energy. The ring's only limits are the imagination and will power of the wielder. (Give a GL ring to Bruce Wayne, or Marvel's Victor Von Doom and see Supes get the snot beat out of him.)

And Superman's power is only really held in check by self-restraint. Guy Gardner, while a jerk, was known for being incredibly strong willed. Superman simply took his ring off him. Superman could take on a legion of Green Lanterns.

9. Mon-El- a Daxamite is the equivalent of a Kryptonian. (Get a 6'8" Daxamite who knows how to fight and Clark gets his head handed to him.)

Or he faints after a few hours on earth because of all the lead. Remember, Superman is earth's protector, so these battles would take place here.

10. Orion- Another in Superman's power class, but a being trained to be a warrior from birth.

He's not in Superman's power class.

11. Spectre- Almost God-like, Superman is less than an insect compared to the Spectre.

You're right about that, but who has ever said otherwise?

I didn't even list those who could give Superman a tussle- Powergirl, Supergirl, Lobo, Steel, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, any powerful mystic, any powerful telepath who could shut down or destroy his mind, any cosmic being, etc.

I'm not going to address each of those individually, but Lobo and MM are the only ones in his power class.


I won't even get into villains, like Mr. Mxyzptlk who if he chose the role of assassin over prankster would easily kill The Man of Steel.

Again, you're right, but no one has ever claimed that isn't the case.

Superman's tough, but he never was the "ultimate" in power. He's simply the most popular and recognizable of the powerful elite.

And for good reason.

Sapphic Amazon




Originally posted by Stupendous Man

Kudos to the production staff for having the common sense to
depower superman to produce more compelling and interesting
stories.

It isn't common sense, it's lazy storytelling. The weaker the character, the easier it is to find a conflict for him. Of course, it's a betrayal of the core essence of the character, but what do they care?

[Knight]

Originally posted by SimonMoon5


Red Sun radiation is no longer a weakness of the comic book Superman. Furthermore, I don't believe that Captain Atom has ever been seen using his power with this level of precision (though Sun Boy of the LSH did).

When did Red Sun radiation stop affecting Superman just a few months ago he battled Kanjor Ro on a planet that had a red sun and he was shown to be very weak to the point were Kanjor was whipping him hand to hand. Please supply some background on when red sun radiation stopped affecting Superman. Because if it has it must have happened very recently.

[RorShaq]

Originally posted by Knight


When did Red Sun radiation stop affecting Superman just a few months ago he battled Kanjor Ro on a planet that had a red sun and he was shown to be very weak to the point were Kanjor was whipping him hand to hand. Please supply some background on when red sun radiation stopped affecting Superman. Because if it has it must have happened very recently.

That's exactly the point of red sun radiation. It doesn't affect him at all. As in, he can't draw any power from it. When he was on that planet he used his power to fight an army and had no way of replenishing it.

[xbuilder]

Superman cannot draw power from a red sun but he can use his reserves up and perform as full power for a short period. Keep in mind in the comic Fighting Kajor Ro he was on a Planet with gravity 10X that of earth so his powers faded fast.

As for Superman's power level.
Take it from a Comic book writer

Superman's current level is perfect for writing.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

First of all, I don't think that the characters from Justice League were powered down...occasionally there are missconceptions of their powers. (For example...Superman can lift a tanker in the ocean...but it was also hard for him to escape Titano) There's a lot of contradictions...it was the writers fault. I believe that they all still have the same strength/powers that they have in the comics...it's just that they don't always use the full of them...in turn...it's the bad writing. And SimonMoon5, where did you here that Superman was no longer effected by Red Solar Radiation...I have recent comics of Superman that say otherwise. But maybe not the most recent one you're refering to.

[Joe Wagner]

We also can't forget that the Superman of the JL:TAS has also looked into the abyss and almost took over the earth in the name of Darkseid. Ever since than he's been trying to win back earths trust and I'm sure that him using his full powers would probably remind everyone of the destruction he's capable of and also Superman feels like he's betrayed himself and probably has subconsciously become less willing to go to his fullest power. I'm sure we'll finally get a good explanation for this when he takes on Darkseid in Season 2 :D

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

i hope he opens up on darkseid

an epic battle that rages for longer than the one in legacy

i want to see batman helpless before two GODS

[Harvey Dent]

I still don't understand how someone can defend Superman's weakness on this show with the reasoning that he's holding back. Holding back should not make you more vulnerable to attack. In fact, it should make you stronger from a defensive standpoint because you're not wasting energy on offense.

[Sapphic Amazon]

I am not an expert on Superman, nor do I wish to be, but I assume to be a "true" expert it would behoove a person to have read comics with Superman other than just his own titles. RorShaq stated the near impossibility of creating kryptonite, however Element Lad easily created gold kryptonite in "Legion of SuperHeroes #293". If you can restructure matter into gold kryptonite (robbing Superman of his powers) you can also create green kryptonite. RorShaq said "wrong" to my assertion that Firestorm could defeat Superman. He did so easily in "Fury of Firestorm #4" by encompassing Superman in a bubble of kryptonite gas. Both Element Lad and Firestorm can defeat Superman with little effort, providing they strike first.
Also, how can anyone claim Orion is not in Superman's class when he is destined to kill Darkseid in one-on-one combat. Even though Orion's immuned to his father's omega beams, anyone who can kill Darkseid in battle can take on Superman.
The Green Lantern rings and their energy has been portrayed to grant demi-god like power to nowhere near as puissant. GL's, like Supes, Flash and countless others have had major inconsistencies in power levels since DC's inception. (And never use Guy Gardner to demonstrate GL prowess. He was/is an idiot and a total headcase. He also was once knocked out by one punch from the Dark Knight.)
Considering the vastness of the universe is beyond anyone's comprehension, and considering Superman has fought hundreds of battles on planets other than earth, how can RorShaq assume any donnybrook involving Kal-El and Mon-El would automatically take place on earth? That is stupid assumption.
In addition, depending upon how powerful energy/radiation powered beings such as Captain Atom, Dr. Light, Lady Quark, etc. actually are, they too have a shot at defeating Supes. Marvel's Silver Surfer, albeit a cosmic empowered being, could defeat Superman. (The Surfer can survive being in the heart of a sun, Superman can't.) Anyone nearing the Surfer could realistically beat Clark Kent's alter ego. We'll just agree to disagree regarding Captain Marvel.
Again, Superman and Batman are DC's icon characters, but there are a few heroes/heroines in Superman's power class, and one's such as Dr. Fate, who possess unique enough powers so as to be favored in a physical clash with Superman.

Sapphic Amazon

[Frank White]

Originally posted by The Green Hornet
i hope he opens up on darkseid

an epic battle that rages for longer than the one in legacy

i want to see batman helpless before two GODS

This just disturbs me for some reason




Anyway, who exactly is Power Girl and what are her powers?

[xbuilder]

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon

In addition, depending upon how powerful energy/radiation powered beings such as Captain Atom, Dr. Light, Lady Quark, etc. actually are, they too have a shot at defeating Supes. Marvel's Silver Surfer, albeit a cosmic empowered being, could defeat Superman. (The Surfer can survive being in the heart of a sun, Superman can't.) Anyone nearing the Surfer could realistically beat Clark Kent's alter ego. We'll just agree to disagree regarding Captain Marvel.
Again, Superman and Batman are DC's icon characters, but there are a few heroes/heroines in Superman's power class, and one's such as Dr. Fate, who possess unique enough powers so as to be favored in a physical clash with Superman.

Sapphic Amazon
supes can survive a being in the middle of a sun. infact by doing do he's amped his powers up to levels darkseid fears.
"see our worlds at war)

[RorShaq]

Originally posted by Sapphic Amazon
I am not an expert on Superman, nor do I wish to be, but I assume to be a "true" expert it would behoove a person to have read comics with Superman other than just his own titles. RorShaq stated the near impossibility of creating kryptonite, however Element Lad easily created gold kryptonite in "Legion of SuperHeroes #293". If you can restructure matter into gold kryptonite (robbing Superman of his powers) you can also create green kryptonite. RorShaq said "wrong" to my assertion that Firestorm could defeat Superman. He did so easily in "Fury of Firestorm #4" by encompassing Superman in a bubble of kryptonite gas. Both Element Lad and Firestorm can defeat Superman with little effort, providing they strike first.
Also, how can anyone claim Orion is not in Superman's class when he is destined to kill Darkseid in one-on-one combat. Even though Orion's immuned to his father's omega beams, anyone who can kill Darkseid in battle can take on Superman.
The Green Lantern rings and their energy has been portrayed to grant demi-god like power to nowhere near as puissant. GL's, like Supes, Flash and countless others have had major inconsistencies in power levels since DC's inception. (And never use Guy Gardner to demonstrate GL prowess. He was/is an idiot and a total headcase. He also was once knocked out by one punch from the Dark Knight.)
Considering the vastness of the universe is beyond anyone's comprehension, and considering Superman has fought hundreds of battles on planets other than earth, how can RorShaq assume any donnybrook involving Kal-El and Mon-El would automatically take place on earth? That is stupid assumption.
In addition, depending upon how powerful energy/radiation powered beings such as Captain Atom, Dr. Light, Lady Quark, etc. actually are, they too have a shot at defeating Supes. Marvel's Silver Surfer, albeit a cosmic empowered being, could defeat Superman. (The Surfer can survive being in the heart of a sun, Superman can't.) Anyone nearing the Surfer could realistically beat Clark Kent's alter ego. We'll just agree to disagree regarding Captain Marvel.
Again, Superman and Batman are DC's icon characters, but there are a few heroes/heroines in Superman's power class, and one's such as Dr. Fate, who possess unique enough powers so as to be favored in a physical clash with Superman.

Sapphic Amazon

No need to call my arguments stupid. Notice how I'm refraining from making a joke at your inability to distinguish pre-crisis from post-crisis(both of your examples of kryptonite duplication come from pre-crisis, when it was notoriously easy to find.)

I'm well aware that Orion is destined to eventually defeat Darkseid. I don't follow his comics, but I've heard that he recently gained acces to the anti-life equation. If that's the case, then Supes would be in trouble. However, in general, he has not been portrayed as having Superman level strength, speed, durability, etc.

Yes, Green Lanterns have been shown as very powerful, but only recently, with Kyle, has the ring been shown wielding power on Superman's level.

As to the Daxamites, they serve the plot purpose of having numerous beings with Superman's power available should a story need them. However, they were also built with a ridiculous weakness, lead, that would make them easy to defeat if someone was properly prepared.

In your last point, you did the same thing you did in your first post. You tried to make the argument about Silver Surfer. Much like Spectre and Myx, there are very few people who will actually claim that Supes could beat him. But it's absolutely absurd to lump him in with the likes of Captain Atom or Lady Quark. They are not even remotely in the same league. Yes, those close to the Surfer's power level could beat him, but name me some people who are. (PS, Supes doesn't just survive in the heart of the sun, he gains almost unimaginable power.)

No one will ever try to claim that Superman is unbeatable, but he is easily the most powerful earth-bound hero, and can give some of the galaxy's heavies a run for their money.

[Maxie Zeus]

Just the standard caution, to keep it civil.

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Harvey Dent
I still don't understand how someone can defend Superman's weakness on this show with the reasoning that he's holding back. Holding back should not make you more vulnerable to attack. In fact, it should make you stronger from a defensive standpoint because you're not wasting energy on offense.

A lot of his vulnerabilities have come at the hands of magic powers, electrical shocks also seem to effect Supes on a level that physical punishment can't match, and in regards to Warworld - Mongul obviously had beings there of great power and he knew Superman was a Kryptonian - how hard would it have been for him to figure out a way to keep him down with some robots - Luthor was able to do it for a while and Braniac used robots on Kal-El repeatedly.

In regards to who could defeat the Man of Steel - the Silver Surfer is a great pick. While Superman has the ability to gain power from the heart of a sun it would only last until the Surfer used his own power cosmic to rip it out of him and leave him at human level strength. From there it would be a cake walk for the Surfer to defeat the Man of Steel.

-Joe!

[Stupendous Man]

Im as big a comic book fan / Superman nut as the next guy
on here.

Hell .. I know Supermans Social Security # and home address.

However ... I just dont get this obsession with some fanboys thats Superman has to be the "MOST" powerfull being in any
battle.

What does this say about you as a fan that Superman being able to fly, bend steel with his bare hands & shoot lasers from his eyes is not enough for you if he takes a couple good licks in a battle ?

Is this the Fanboy equivelant of having to drive a really big sporty
car ?

Are you guys compensating for something ?

hmmmm ?

[Joe Wagner]

No, I don't think it's a compensation thing - just more the fact that I can see why people are getting tired of seeing Superman get his butt handed to him on a weekly basis. While he doesn't have to be the most powerful hero it would be nice to see him take someone, anyone out in the heat of battle - instead of being swatted away like a fly.

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

its just VERY VERY frustrating that batman put up more of a fight against Aresia than Superman

they just keep puting batman on this pedestal of greatness while keeping superman (a guy who went TOE TO TOE with DARKSEID AND HIS OMEGA EFFECT and came out the WINNER (albeit temporarily) down

[Stupendous Man]

I hear your frustration Hornet ...
and its well stated.

Personally I like the fact that Justce League is
making the point that Batman is a forced to be
reconned with even though he has no superpowers
of his own.

It was kinda of a rush to watch Batman take on all
those powered villans and tackle them all single handedly.

But perhaps ... ( Im conceeding to you here )
perhaps theyve made their point on this front .

Perhaps its not that we need to see Superman in displays of great strength .. because weve had those - against the
Manhunters - against Mongul.

Maybee what would make the dissenters on this forum happy,
and me to boot - would be to see SUPERMAN come in and save the day for once.

To see all the Justice League fall to some great opponent and
only Superman stumbling to his feet ...stand .. tap into his
great reserves of power and kick A@@.

To see Superman succeed where all the other great super heroes of the world have failed would be a rush for all of us.

And he shouldnt win because hes more powerfull than his opponent .. but because hes got more heart and Superman doesnt give in.

Id like that.

Its time for Bats to stand aside and let The Man of Tommorow do what he does best ... be the ultimate hero.

[LastSonofKrypton]

Preach on, Brother Stupendous Man! :)

I agree. It's not that Superman needs to or even should save the day all the time. It's not even that they've seemingly depowered him. After all, there isn't that much difference between his power levels here and on S:TAS (IMHO, the best depiction of Superman I've seen). It's just that in JL, Superman is so darned ineffective and Batman is always saving the day. And Superman just seemed to me to be so much smarter in S:TAS than in JL.

The one point I disagree with you on, SM, is having Superman stagger to his feet when all the other JL members have fallen and beat the foe with his reserves of power. What I'd prefer to see is after the other JL members have fallen, have Superman figure out a clever way to defeat the foe. Show Superman's brain power as even more impressive than his physical prowess.


Originally posted by Stupendous Man
I hear your frustration Hornet ...
and its well stated.

Personally I like the fact that Justce League is
making the point that Batman is a forced to be
reconned with even though he has no superpowers
of his own.

It was kinda of a rush to watch Batman take on all
those powered villans and tackle them all single handedly.

But perhaps ... ( Im conceeding to you here )
perhaps theyve made their point on this front .

Perhaps its not that we need to see Superman in displays of great strength .. because weve had those - against the
Manhunters - against Mongul.

Maybee what would make the dissenters on this forum happy,
and me to boot - would be to see SUPERMAN come in and save the day for once.

To see all the Justice League fall to some great opponent and
only Superman stumbling to his feet ...stand .. tap into his
great reserves of power and kick A@@.

To see Superman succeed where all the other great super heroes of the world have failed would be a rush for all of us.

And he shouldnt win because hes more powerfull than his opponent .. but because hes got more heart and Superman doesnt give in.

Id like that.

Its time for Bats to stand aside and let The Man of Tommorow do what he does best ... be the ultimate hero.

[The Green Hornet]

well said Stupendous Man

my problem doesnt lie with the batman, or with the shows need to show him as someone important to the league

i take issue of the seeming DISrespect that the shows writers have for Superman

for once i would like to see the batman just get MANHANDLED by someone he thinks he has totally figured out, and to have superman come in, solve the crime and beat on some powerful badguy to boot

in their respective "spotlight" episodes, we have seen every other hero really have fun with their powers and show off-- but we were DENIED that chance in Warworld when they allowed Dragaa to fight Mongul

Superman just needs a little respect once in a while

[Sapphic Amazon]

Some interesting feedback as this thread has exceeded my initial expectations, though I guess a Superman-based topic will have a healthy shelf-life. Personally, I never thought of post-crisis DC as some "Holy Truth" and pre-crisis DC being little more than a mental quicksand trap for paganistic heathens of comic yore. Give DC another 25 years and the thousands of writers with their oversights in continuity and logic, intentional and unintentional, will cause future fans to clamor for another major overhaul.
Initially, I was pointing out Superman's not "The Be All, End All" in every story, and a de-powered Supes (among other heroes) allows for potentially more entertaining episodes. Obviously, if the writers fail to deliver, complaints will be rampant. And perhaps enough forwarded e-mails and letters will lead to better scripts in next season's run.
I, too, have noticed numerous 'guffaws' of logic by this group of writers and directors. The Deadshot action sequence was a complete joke, making almost every hero seem ineffective or downright ignorant. (Deadshot's nothing more than a mean Annie Oakley with a mask for Pete's sake!) Letting Flash allow Central City be torn apart because he can't catch a truck Lee Majors could have run down was another blatant slap in the face to the audience and their intelligence.
But I will defend the writers on this basis: DC characters are too powerful. They are much more difficult to display with logic attached to their foundation of fantasy. Compare the JL to the Avengers (a comic series I wanted to read since the rumors started over 15 years ago). If you use the powers properly, the JL would slaughter the Avengers. Why? Because their elite members combine superior strength, invulnerability and super speed. Even if the Hulk or Thor can fight Superman, J'onn, Captain Marvel, etc. on a strength level, they would never land a punch due to the speed of the DC heroes. One of Marvel's fastest characters, Quicksilver, is a turtle on crutches compared to more than a handful of JL members. DC heroes, started in the late 30's, are far more powerful than the Marvel heroes, mostly started in the early 60's. Or any other company, for that matter.
Peaople like Batman, Green Arrow, Atom, Elongated Man, Hawkman, Aquaman, Black canary, Fire and Ice would have been killed a million times over when fighting alongside Superman, GL, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter against threats that could actually challenge the league. The writers can definitely do a far superior job than currently, but they will always have the inherent problem that DC characters present: TOO DAMN POWERFUL!!!!

Sapphic Amazon

[Lee]

Lee Majors--now he had some speed!

[LastSonofKrypton]

And, for a while at least, Farrah Fawcett too! :)


Originally posted by Lee
Lee Majors--now he had some speed!

[Lee]

Sorry about that double, a cat stepped on the keyboard..I swear!

[Frank White]

Originally posted by Frank White


This just disturbs me for some reason




Anyway, who exactly is Power Girl and what are her powers?

[Spider]

Originally posted by Lee
Sorry about that double, a cat stepped on the keyboard..I swear!

Lee,

Maybe it was the Cat that Catwoman had ride in the Batmobile so that she could continue to track the Caped Crusaders.... ;)

[Christo]

Jeannette Kahn (the publisher of DC Comics for over twenty years) once said that the world is divided into two camps: Batman fans and Superman fans.

I've always felt that the staff producing the DC-Based shows for the past decade have always been Batman fans primarily. Let's look at their track record:

After 85 episodes of BTAS, they decide to follow up with S:TAS. They announce a 65-episode deal with The WB, and only produce 54 episodes over three seasons (we had 60 eps. of Batman in its first season). Of those 54 episodes, five of them guest-star Batman. In fact, Superman features far more guest stars than Batman, leaving us with the impression that the writers just don't seem to think that Superman can carry his own show!

Mid-way through doing S:TAS, the production team decides to do another 25 episodes of Batman with all-new designs.

Instead of finishing the 65 eps. of Superman, they then start yet another Batman-based series, Batman Beyond.

And then there's his recent treatment in JL . . .

I don't know if anyone else out there feels this, but I feel a bit cheated over the last ten years. I love Batman, I really do, but I want to see a Superman that I can respect. JL diminishes the character when the producers choose to not use him to his fullest extent. If they won't do it, they should hire someone who actually cares.

[Joe Wagner]

Personally I didn't mind the guest stars that seemed to pop up a lot during S:TAS - after all when WB got the show the cast of Batman was also increased - sometimes using guest stars and often using Nightwing, Robin and Batgirl more and more. It does seem that a lot of the animated stuff has more of a focus on Bats than Supes and I think this can mostly be attributed to the 1960's TV show and the Batman movies. He's become so engrained into pop culture that DC just uses the character people think they can relate to more - a human with no powers. While I like Batman a lot I do wish that Superman would finally get his own bit of glory as it does seem that Batman is becoming the "main man" but let's face it - Bats would get stomped on if he had to face Darkseid or another being with his power level. I really like the idea of the league facing a threat that they can't take and for Superman to finally get the chance to star.

Here's an idea for future episodes though - rather than having Superman always being the first hero on the scene why don't they show Superman flying in half way through the battle - after all he was always flying around the planet avoiding natural disasters and they haven't shown anything like that yet.

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

word JJWspider

bats WOULD get owned facing DARKSEID

its why i LONG for season 2

ive got a gut feeling that we will see superman get a little respect if he and darkseid go toe to toe-- lord knows there isnt ONE other member of the league that could withstand even ONE omega beam

[Joe Wagner]

Green Hornet - let's just hope that Hawkgirls hammer can't deflect Darkseids Omega Beams as well - geez I think that hammer could possibly be more powerful than Supes himself!

Arrgh!!!!! I knew I shouldn't have typed this, now there's no reason for Supes to fight - I've already figured out how the Bats could win, by creating a glove that lets him wield Hawkgirls hammer and then sneaking up on Darkseid and batting an Omega Beam back at him! D'OH!

If that happens I may as well stop watching JL:TAS because than we would truly know it's a Batman world and that Supes won't get the respect he deserves as the worlds premier superhero!

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

id quit watching the show forever and become a detractor if either of these things happen

1. batman survives an omega beam (ONE shot DISINITGRATED Dan Turpin)

2. Hawkgirls mace deflects the omega effect

[Joe Wagner]

Preach on brother Hornet, preach on! :D

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

you know whats sad JJ?

i can TOTALLY see BOTH of those happening

i can also see your scenario, where BATMAN uses the mace

isnt that sad? that i actually harbor some fear in my heart that the writers would allow that?

[Joe Wagner]

After the hope of seeing Supes cut loose against Mongul completely shattered I can actually see those things happening to. I'm sure that Batman would tell Darkseid he survived his Omega Beam blast with his patented "Bat force field". Robin will probably guest star on the episode and scream "Holy Smoldering Bat Flesh!" after Bats gets blasted.

Superman will probably be knocked out with Darkseids first punch and be completely out of the battle, much like the other battles he's appeared in. Your right Hornet - tis a sad, sad day indeed when we believe a great show like Justice League would let something like this happen (altho we should give them some credit - Supes is the focal character in the standing JL:TAS design).

Maybe we should start a petition to make sure Dwayne McDuffie pens the script for the Darkseid arc? I'm sure he would make sure Supes was in character seeing as how he's done some great writing so far in season 1. :D

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

im actually suprised that Mongul didnt knock superman out in one hit (like every other fight) leaving only the batman to use yet another line item in Wayne Enterprises budget -- a superspeed spaceship in a bat shape that no one else knows was built to fly out and defeat mongul in single combat

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Christo
Jeannette Kahn (the publisher of DC Comics for over twenty years) once said that the world is divided into two camps: Batman fans and Superman fans.

I've always felt that the staff producing the DC-Based shows for the past decade have always been Batman fans primarily. Let's look at their track record.

Well, this has more to do with the network than with the creative staff, I think. The order for additional Batman eps (in the TNBA style) apparently came from the network because the show was in the process of moving from Fox to Kid'sWB, and they didn't want it to consist solely of reruns. The producers wanted and intended to finish the 65 ep-order of STAS, but the network dropped it. And the Batman spinoff show was apparently also occasioned by the network wanting a new Batman show.

I agree there were a lot of gueststars in STAS, but I think was more due to the fact the Supes works well with other heroes (like GL and Flash) and the crew wanted a chance to mix those guys in. Couldn't do that on Batman.

Anyway, if the universe is divided between Batman and Superman fans, I think they dominate the network, not necessarily the production team. ;)

OT: I deleted that double post from earlier. In case anyone says "huh?"

[Joe Wagner]

Mongul hadn't eaten his Wheaties that day. Besides he wasn't involved with a special amulet, from the pits of hell, an assasin, an alien made of clear goop, a Manhunter, or a bum with only his empty liquor bottle. Clearly Mongul couldn't have knocked him out without having one of these powers.

I just keep thinking, how powerful would Supermn look if Darkseid started a new conquest of earth and all of the heroes fell at his forces only to see Supes rise from the rubble with eyes glowing red and smoke filling up most of the screen. Maybe as Supes passes by Bats Bruce could grab his leg saying something to the effect of "Clark.....no.....he'll kill you" right before he passes out. Kal-El would glare at Darkseid, eyes raging and bellow "I should have ended this long ago - no more will you harm the innocents of my home!" Darkseid would smile and respond with "It's good to see you again Kal-El, we could have ruled together instead we are destined to fight until one of us can no longer continue. Farewell, my son." (A direct reference to Legacy).

This of course would be followed by the most powerful incarnation of Superman we would have ever seen - completely unrestrained and ready to go.

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

i just totally realized this

Batman holds the team back

if it werent for the fact he would look WORTHLESS compared to the others, i bet everyone would be at full power

Flash would have TREMENDOUS speed, we'd see him vibrate through objects etc

WW is pretty good as it its

so his Hawkgirl

GL could be a TAD stronger but hes pretty solid

Supes would be a completely differnet character

but no, they are held back

[Wumbo]

I just keep thinking, how powerful would Supermn look if Darkseid started a new conquest of earth and all of the heroes fell at his forces only to see Supes rise from the rubble with eyes glowing red and smoke filling up most of the screen. Maybe as Supes passes by Bats Bruce could grab his leg saying something to the effect of "Clark.....no.....he'll kill you" right before he passes out. Kal-El would glare at Darkseid, eyes raging and bellow "I should have ended this long ago - no more will you harm the innocents of my home!" Darkseid would smile and respond with "It's good to see you again Kal-El, we could have ruled together instead we are destined to fight until one of us can no longer continue. Farewell, my son." (A direct reference to Legacy).

jjw, THANK YOU. that would be awesome!!!!!!! that is the kind of supes that we need to see on this show. not that i'm knocking the show, but supes has been manhandled by too many people who shouldn't. btw, maybe u could write for the show.

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Wumbo


jjw, THANK YOU. that would be awesome!!!!!!! that is the kind of supes that we need to see on this show. not that i'm knocking the show, but supes has been manhandled by too many people who shouldn't. btw, maybe u could write for the show.

Thanks for the kind words Wumbo. I'm sure if someone from Bruce Timm and Co. asked me to I would die, promptly resurrect myself and say yes. Then again I'm sure they wouldn't want me writing because my first story would probably include Aztek in it somehow.

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

nothing wrong with a guest star or two!

[Joe Wagner]

I've actually had an idea that would make some of the under used characters a lot cooler than their comic counterparts. These would include characters like Captain Atom and the Ray to name a few. I'm so tired of characters with a lot of potential getting the shaft and that's how I feel about these characters. I also think it would be kewl to have an arc where one of the main characters is virtually being stalked and as they are facing a foe the person winds up losing it - eventually being kicked off the team or being told to take a mandatory leave of absence. This would help with the alter-ego scenario as the hero would have to tackle a villain on their own and out of costume. What do you guys think?

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

ive been a RAY fan for a long time now

GREAT character

NEVER used


i want to see Captain Comet make a return (outside of KC)

hes a GREAT character and i wish they would remember that

[Stupendous Man]

Respectfully Green Hornet ,

Batman doesnt hold the team back ,
the team is held back by the need to
create "dramatic tension".

Its not about the writers "hate" Superman
or Superman is holding the team back ...

Its that in order to make this an interesting show
with situations that involve actual conflict and
resolutions that create excitement - these
Godlike biengs have to be "depowered" slightly in
order to level the playing field.

Ive heard some people in the past , on these
forums , counter this arguement by stating that
the writers/producers shouldnt make Superman
weaker but rather the villans more powerfull.

That wouldnt work .

1st . If you only write stories about villans with
Darkseid like powers .
It would certainly be an exciting show, but there
would be 4 episodes and the show would end.

Personally Im hoping for this show to last a couple
seasons.

2cnd. If you state that maybe they should just create more
villans at this mega powerlevel ... then whats the point
of this show if everyones practically a god?

Then this show would degenerate to the league getting
their butts kicked every week and only Superman
cleaning up the mess. This isnt a Superman show ...
if you want a show with just Superman , weve had one
of those allready- go watch a rerun of that.

3rd. How long would the world survive if every week it was
attacked by Darkseid ? This show would be about the end
of the world ..not the Justice League.



Supermans powerlevels are fine on JL.
The show couldnt work any other way as a team show.

The only thing this show needs to do , is not to beef up
Supermans power levels - but to make it clear how cool it
is to be Superman (at any power level) .

We need to see Superman using his power .. (regardless of
what level of power that may be).

That really is the problem with this show .. not that the
producers have deminished Supermans power -

The Real problem is theyve diminished his presence on the
team.

They are so cautious to not have Superman derail theyre
stories by providing a quick resolution that they go out of theyre
way to eliminate Superman from the equation.

I think they should commit to the concept of "depowering Superman" ... but once thats done lets see Superman use his
remaining power to its fullest diminished capacity.

Instead theyve decided the easiest way to handle the
"Superman Dilema" is by having him dispatched from any
battle quickly.

Youll notice that Superman was the first leaguer to
cath the virus on "Fury".

[Joe Wagner]

I agree Captain Comet is an awesome character that has virtually never been used. I think if he was given a new costume and decided to be an intergalactic defender he could finally be a force to be reckoned with. As for the Ray - I love this character! I always thought it was kewl that when Superman became the electric Superman he went to the Ray for advice. If the Ray could tap into his powers he could easily be one of the most powerful characters in the DCU. I mean with Supes powers he was able to deflect the friggin moon!!! The Ray kicks serious arse!

Stupendous Man - I agree that if that instead of eliminating Superman they need to come up with better ways to keep Supes involved with the story or mention that he's to busy with an earthquake half way across the world to make it into battle. It's almost deprimental to the character though to have him taken out in every battle as it becomes to repetative and takes some of the excitement of the battle out.

-Joe!

[The Green Hornet]

Stupendous: i hear you-- youve got some good points there

if you remember in the Aquaman episode pt. 2 , Superman was taken out of the battle @ the south poll almost IMMEDIATLY by getting hit and sent flying

JJW: oh yeah a re-tooling of CC's costume and he could be a great guest hero again

and the RAY had a couple of limited series WAYYYYY back -- early 90s i think

great hero, great powers, great history

[Joe Wagner]

Yep CC could be awesome. I think you're right about the Ray also - I seem to remember the mini-series coming out in the early to mid-90's. He's also appearing in YJ right at the moment - hopefully they do him justice while he's there.

-Joe!

[Stupendous Man]

The Ray limited series was fantastic, and definitely
worth picking up in trade format ( both writing and art
were above par).

The limited series had a vertigo like feel to a DC superhero.
Cool redesign of the character as well.

The actual series though lacked the hippness and
originality of the limited series and got canceled .

* * *

I dont remember a Captain Comet from DC.
Theyre was a CometMan in the marvel universe.

Was Captain Comet a JSA / Golden Age character?

[The Green Hornet]

Captain Comet, aka Adam Blake, was one of DC's "space heros" of the 1950s

Amazing Tales i think was the title he was in, but i could be way off there


he has popped up from time to time in other series-- he was a member of LEIGON i think for a while (although i couldnt stand his costume there)


he reappeared in Kingdom Come as the warden of the gulag

[RorShaq]

You know, in recent years Grant Morrison and Mark Waid were able to tell great Justice League stories without diminishing Superman at all. Morrison perhaps went a bit overboard with the whole Batgod thing, but other than that the show's writers could learn a thing or two from them.

[Stupendous Man]

Granted Waid and Morrison handled the
"Superman Dilema" and told fantastic stories.

Waid and Morrison are master comic book writers ..
we should only hope to get that caliber of writing on
a Justice League animated series.

The way they handled this dilema however was to
make the stories more about group dynamics and
character development.

It would take 6 episodes of JL to handle even one
Waid or Morrison storylines.
(and while I would be happy with a 6 part or season
long storyline - apparently the producers and some
of the fans have issues with multi parters).

Waid & Morrison didnt have to worry about Supermans
power levels because most of their stories didnt involve
the League in fist fights but rather the League
handlind each others personalities.

The "Tower of Babylon" is an all time classic JL
storyline.

[Frank White]

WHO IS POWERGIRL AND WHAT ARE HER POWERS!!!?!?!?!?!?!1


(for the 3rd time)

[JLU Dude]

Originally posted by Frank White
WHO IS POWERGIRL AND WHAT ARE HER POWERS!!!?!?!?!?!?!1


(for the 3rd time)

Pre-Crisis: The Earth 2 (The JSA Universe) version of Supergirl. She did wield Superman-like powers.
Post-Crisis: The granddaughter of Arion, Lord of Atlantis. She was sent to the DCU to protect her from a sorcerer named Garn Daanuth. She did have Superman-like powers and was a member of the Justice League Eurpoe/International division, but after being injuried in a fight with the Gray Man, her powers were reduced.

On the subject: Yes, I think Superman (Powers and all) should be actually used to their fullest. I think Superman should have withstood most of the stuff thrown at him in the show, but I still like the shows none the less.

[Joe Wagner]

I agree with Justice League Dude - I still enjoy the show but I really wish Superman had a bigger role in the show and would stop holding back on his powers. I have high hopes that Superman snaps to upper Legacy levels and decimates everyone in his path. How cool would it be to see Supes go through an entire hoard of parademons again? Oh yea! :D

-Joe!

[RookiePR]

Hi, all can anyone tell me where can I find info on the superheroes powers comparison??? e.g. How many tons can Superman and the Hulk lift??? Something in that line of comparison. I've llooked everywhere with no result. I'll apreciate your help. Thanks!!

[Frank White]

DC has never published how much their characters can lift.

[randomguy]

Actually, Captain Marvel has beaten Superman, on at least two occasions. He did it in Superman/Batman #4, and more notably, in Kingdom Come. It's worth saying that the Kingdom Come Superman was actually more powerful than the comics version typically is, and Marvel still wiped the floor with him. Superman's brute strength may be more than Marvel's, but Marvel's power is drawn from magical sources, giving him the edge.

I don't think Superman needs, by definition, to be the most powerful character around. He should be the biggest and the most visible, certainly, but not necessarily the most powerful. It's not Superman's power that gives him his status both within the main comics and the DCAU, but his ideals, his character, and the overall message of hope and strength that he conveys.

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a few characters with strength equal to or surpassing Superman's. There's the aforementioned Captain Marvel. The Spectre could take him down, provided he had justification. A Green Lantern with the right amount of willpower might be capable of doing so. At the peak of his power (with the ability to transfer motion to other molecules), the Flash could probably swing it. Doomsday did kill him. Plastic Man could probably suffocate him. I bet Imperiex could tear him limb from limb.

Anyways, you see my point.

[batman_batman]

i think that the complaint about superman is legitimate. he's the most powerful guy on the planet so of course he's going to get beat up a lot.
he's the only one that can take a beating which is why a lot of people think
he's weak. basically i've said this before. superman could handle all the situtations on the jl show by himself. but the rest of the leaguers need something to do so that's why he takes a beating.
if darkseid punched batman, he'd be dead. anyway the real complaint is when superman gets hit by bullets or lasers and gets knocked back a hundred feet. bullets and lasers shouldn't affect him. nothing should really. i want to see an episode where superman just kicks every villains butt and the rest of the league just kicks back and watches him finish the bad guys off and at the end. they hold up point cards. batman would give a 6.0 and the rest of the league would probably give a 9 or 10.

[SimonMoon5]

Hi, all can anyone tell me where can I find info on the superheroes powers comparison??? e.g. How many tons can Superman and the Hulk lift??? Something in that line of comparison. I've llooked everywhere with no result. I'll apreciate your help. Thanks!!Which Superman and which Hulk? Animated versions? Modern comic versions? Classic comics versions?

For the Silver Age Superman, he was rated at a 50 STR in the official DC Heroes RPG. This means that he can lift 2^50 times 50 lbs. The Modern Age Superman was rated at a mere 25 STR, meaning that he can lift 2^25 * 50 lbs.

By my calculations (using a calculator), that means that the Silver Age Superman can lift about 2,814,749,767,080 tons (yes, 2 *trillion* tons), while the Modern Age Superman is a weakling who can lift only 838,860.8 tons (almost one million tons).

Marvel has been more vague. The Hulk is often in "Class 100" meaning that he can lift more than 100 tons. How much more? Probably a lot, but beyond that level, Marvel tends not to be specific.

[RookiePR]

Which Superman and which Hulk? Animated versions? Modern comic versions? Classic comics versions?

For the Silver Age Superman, he was rated at a 50 STR in the official DC Heroes RPG. This means that he can lift 2^50 times 50 lbs. The Modern Age Superman was rated at a mere 25 STR, meaning that he can lift 2^25 * 50 lbs.

By my calculations (using a calculator), that means that the Silver Age Superman can lift about 2,814,749,767,080 tons (yes, 2 *trillion* tons), while the Modern Age Superman is a weakling who can lift only 838,860.8 tons (almost one million tons).

Marvel has been more vague. The Hulk is often in "Class 100" meaning that he can lift more than 100 tons. How much more? Probably a lot, but beyond that level, Marvel tends not to be specific.
Thats impresive, but since im new in the comics scenario, i dont understand some of your terms. Like STR, RPG means role playing games??? And 2^50 what does it means??? Sorry for my newbie questions. And thanks for your reply!

[Hatter]

It isn't common sense, it's lazy storytelling. The weaker the character, the easier it is to find a conflict for him. Of course, it's a betrayal of the core essence of the character, but what do they care?
"The core essence of the character"? Despite the fact that when Superman first appeared, he was little more than the ultimate athlete? He couldn't fly, couldn't shoot heat beams, and lifting a car was plenty. If Siegel & Shuster didn't define Superman's essence, who did?

The point is, Superman's strength levels have changed constantly over his 60+ year history. He really has no "set" strength level, so it's best to just let the writers create the best stories possible, instead of bogging them down with petty minutiae.

[SimonMoon5]

Thats impresive, but since im new in the comics scenario, i dont understand some of your terms. Like STR, RPG means role playing games??? And 2^50 what does it means??? Sorry for my newbie questions. And thanks for your reply!
Sorry. RPG is in fact role-playing game. Str is strength. 2^50 means 2 to the 50th power (can't write exponents in plain text).

[Anime_girl]

Actually, Captain Marvel has beaten Superman, on at least two occasions. He did it in Superman/Batman #4, and more notably, in Kingdom Come. It's worth saying that the Kingdom Come Superman was actually more powerful than the comics version typically is, and Marvel still wiped the floor with him. Superman's brute strength may be more than Marvel's, but Marvel's power is drawn from magical sources, giving him the edge.

I don't think Superman needs, by definition, to be the most powerful character around. He should be the biggest and the most visible, certainly, but not necessarily the most powerful. It's not Superman's power that gives him his status both within the main comics and the DCAU, but his ideals, his character, and the overall message of hope and strength that he conveys.

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a few characters with strength equal to or surpassing Superman's. There's the aforementioned Captain Marvel. The Spectre could take him down, provided he had justification. A Green Lantern with the right amount of willpower might be capable of doing so. At the peak of his power (with the ability to transfer motion to other molecules), the Flash could probably swing it. Doomsday did kill him. Plastic Man could probably suffocate him. I bet Imperiex could tear him limb from limb.

Anyways, you see my point.Actually marvel was weaking him with the lighting bolts and superman was trying to reason with a brainwash captian marvel and superman won (bearly) the fight, also they were stallmat in the Superman/Batman #4,with marvel giving superman a bloody nosed and (with superman fighting other heros and other things).It was hawkman who knock out superman(with that glove of his with the power of the planet),who also in the next issue batman and superman defeated hawkman and captain marvel(Off panel).

And dude plasticman come on plasticman?

[randomguy]

Actually marvel was weaking him with the lighting and superman was trying to reason with a brainwash captian marvel and superman won (bearly) the fight also they were stallmat in the Superman/Batman #4,with marvel giving superman a bloody nosed and (with superman been fighting other heros and other things).It was hawkman who knock out superman(with that glove of his with the power of the planet),who also in the next issue batman and superman defeated hawman and cpatain marvel(Off panel).

And dude plasticman come on plasticman?
Nah, I don't think Superman won the Kingdom Come fight. I have a feeling Batson could have transformed and finished him off. Of course, we'll never know, because he got nuked. You're right about Superman/Batman, but once again... all the signs point towards Marvel being stronger. He is "The World's Mightiest Mortal", after all. And besides, Alex Ross says Marvel would win. And Alex Ross is the man.

As for Plastic Man... all I can say is that Plas is more powerful than people give him credit for. He isn't particularly strong, but he is almost completely unbreakable. If he could manage to wrap himself completely around Superman, I don't know what Supes could do about it.

Besides, he was the only Leaguer with the moxy to take down Fernus.