Favorite X-Men animated series? [Archive]

Wonderwall

07-08-2011, 05:01 PM

I recently watched evolution with captain america guest starring and they have him dying from the super soldier serrum and in a freezer waiting for a cure!That means cap has done nothing since the war,that alone makes me hate evolution.

So just like in any interpretation of Cap after the war where he's frozen and does nothing until he's thawed out. I was always under the assumption that Evolution was in a young Marvel universe. And even the dying of the serum is based off the comics as that happened to him in the late 80s, early 90s? Memory of the timeline there is a bit foggy.

As for the topic...I think I'll give it to the 90s one by a bit. It's got it's share of problems that have been discussed a lot but I still look fondly on it. Nostalgia talking I know but there was legit good stuff in there too. X men Evolution had a really rough start but when it eventually found its groove it was really good, but that did take awhile and unfortunately it was cut short. WaTXM had potential but I felt it squandered it way too many times to be any better than the previous shows. I'm also still waiting for a really great X men cartoon.

Rabbitearsblog

07-08-2011, 05:37 PM

I loved both X-Men Evolution and the original 90s cartoon, but I'll have to go with the original 90s version because I grew up with it and it featured most of the X-Men characters. I liked Evolution because it did a great job with the character development but probably the only thing I don't like about Evolution is that they made Gambit and Colossus work for Magneto (even though we know why Colossus is working for Magneto, but they never really touched on that issue that much). I haven't seen Wolverine and the X-Men yet, so I can't really rate on that yet.

As for the next new X-Men cartoon, I'm waiting for another X-Men cartoon too and as long as they have Colossus, Psylocke or any other X-Men character that rarely had any screentime, as the main characters, then I will be happy.

Monte

07-08-2011, 06:27 PM

Trevor

07-08-2011, 07:08 PM

By far, my favorite X-Men series would have to be the 90's series. Saban set the bar so high for storytelling in that series that the other two X-Men series, while they have come close, have not been able to reach that height. Plus you had two back-to-back seasons where the season was one long arc, and the stories just flowed so smoothly. None of this 2 episodes of the arc, and then one stand-alone episode followed by three more arc episodes. I think the 90's X-Men was the one of the first if not the first cartoon shows to use season arcs. Plus, who can beat having Rogue flying with Storm and having super-strength. Sure the last six episodes that were produced solely by Saban are nowhere close to being the best episodes of the series (aside from Old Soldiers and Descent, which is probably the best episode with Mr. Sinister that I've ever seen).

X-Men Evolution I've found to be a rather dramatic departure from the previous show and was really a kids version of 90210. It was rocky and boring to start, but then Season 3 was leading up to a very exciting moment in the series, but then when Season 4 started, instead of the bang, we sort of got a whimper, and it felt like the show just left the airwaves with "it's tail between it's legs". But also the characters were not as fully fleshed out as they were in the 90's series, and Rogue didn't have the Ms. Marvel package, so she was a rather forgettable character who really didn't have a reason to hang around. Plus, why did Canadian Wolverine sound like he was from Texas or Louisiana?

Wolverine and the X-Men was probably the 2nd best X-Men show, since the designs were more like those of the 90's show, and the characters were closer to the way that you expected them to act and sound.Sure the Wolverine episodes weren't the best, but the other episodes were pretty good. But at the same time I've got to remember how people thought that Star Trek The Next Generation hadn't improved the characters during its first season, but then in the second season we saw Will Riker cooking, Worf using his calisthenics program and everyone else getting fleshed out. Unfortunately we'll never be able to see just how the second season of Wolverine and the X-Men would've progressed and fleshed out the characters, due to the cancellation of the show.

W.C.Reaf

07-08-2011, 07:12 PM

So just like in any interpretation of Cap after the war where he's frozen and does nothing until he's thawed out. I was always under the assumption that Evolution was in a young Marvel universe. And even the dying of the serum is based off the comics as that happened to him in the late 80s, early 90s? Memory of the timeline there is a bit foggy.

Going by that surely it means that the 90s series is the one saying Cap didn't do anything after the war. We never see or hear from him in the 90s series again post war and since it's in continuity with Spider-Man TAS it means Cap never gets any proper modern adventures because he's stuck in a time vortex with the Red Skull. Evo at least gave some hope that Cap will be cured and wake up to have some adventures in modern times. ;)

Anyway my favourite X-Men series is Evo thanks to its (pun intended) evolving characters and story lines. The characters grew over the course of the series becoming the world saving heroes we know and love form the comics. Xavier's mansion also feels like a real school where we actually see them learning how to control their powers. The show also has my personal favourite version of the Sentinels as just one of them is shown to be a threat and it takes on two teams of mutants with only taking minimal damage. Compare that to the other shows Sentinels which can get taken out by any single member of the team. I can understand why the show isn’t as well liked as the others (the high school aspect, different character interpretations, etc) but those felt minor to me compared to all the good parts of it.

While I liked the 90s series I just got soured on the fact that there's no real character development for the main cast. Secondary characters like Magneto and Morph get a lot more development despite only getting about 20% of screen time compared to the main cast. The adaptations of classic stories were good, even if they "90s-ised" them, and the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix sagas were pretty damn good.

WatX was a mixed bag mainly brought on by the over use of its star. He just overshadowed all the characters so it seemed like half the X-Men were just window dressing and did nothing. Storm, Iceman and Shadowcat were pointless, had no development or role in the series, and were just used to pad out the team roster. Even Emma Frost felt forgotten for about the middle of the series. Oh and don't get me started on the "time travel" aspects of it. They did do a great version of Magneto here and his plots were the highlight of the show. The Angel/Archangel story was magnificent and I wish the show was always at that quality. It makes me sad there wasn't a season 2 as there was potential for improvement and most shows do get better past the first season once the crew finds their footing.

Pryde of the X-Men is probably my second favourite purely because it's goofy, silly, and fun to watch. The animation quality is surprisingly good for an 80s cartoon and the voice acting is well done. Even Australian Wolverine is a hoot to listen to just for the irony of such an extremely popular character, so much that he even got his own show, being given so little care in casting. It was an 80s cartoon through and through, but it was a fun one.

deymasc

07-08-2011, 07:31 PM

The 90's x-men was a good series that did well to give a very wide variety of stories and covered a huge piece of the mythos. The only place it lacked was in animation and character. Something just seemed off about the characters, something unnatural that just made it a bit difficult to connect with them. Maybe i just got the feeling that they felt too much like heroes and not enough like humans. Still all in all the series comes out as the best of marvel's 90's series and a really good series from out of the 90's in general

WatXM was also a good series that had some real strong writing and animation behind it. The writing was strong enough that it could have easily been the best of the X-men series. However the series suffered one HUGE flaw; it forgot that the "X-men" is about a TEAM of superheroes and not just one of them. I like wolverine and I got nothing against him, but when you give HIGH priority focus to ONE character in a cast of a dozen people, those other cast members are bound to suffer. If the show wasn't so busy making love to wolverine the rest of the cast could have gotten the same love that Nightcrawler got... when i watch an X-men series, i expect it to be about the X-men

X-men Evolution, had good stories and good characters. I was really able to grow fond to much of the cast and enjoyed it all the way through. The only downside of the series was that I felt the high school setting got old after a while. Frankly would have preferred if the series could have moved on from that phase and work its way to some epic story lines.

All in all, i give it to Evolution. The story lines varied from decent to good, but what i like the most is that out of all three of the series, i think evolution handled the characters the best. I mean sure the 90's series might let remember an epic storyline, but what i prefer to remember is what the characters were thinking and feeling; that's what really moves me and sticks and that's where I think evolution stands above the others

I honestly believe that had it been renewed for another season, Evolution would have jettisoned the teenager appeal and upped the ante a bit...as they did in the final season. It got a bit darker than the previous seasons, and really started to get interesting. I wish it would have received another season, as well as Wolverine & The X-Men.

All in all, Evolution gets my vote, followed by WATXM. The 90s series...having watched it again recently, I don't miss it at all. lol

Silverstar

07-08-2011, 09:42 PM

X-Men: TAS for me.

Yeah, it was corny and hammy, yes, Wolverine dominated about 80% of it and no, the animation didn't age well at all, but it still has a certain charm to it, cheese and all. I liked the garish costumes and the over-the-top performances, Tolkien-spouting Storm, over-powered Rogue and everything else. Probably because it was my first real exposure to the X universe, the 90's X-Men will always be my X-Men.

Evolution, well, the animation was excellent, but the whole 'mutants go to public high school' bit just never gelled with me; the first 2 seasons were way too school-centric and shipper-happy for my tastes, plus it never made sense to me how the mutants roomed at a private school and at the same time attended a public school; that was a plothole big enough to drive a Mack truck through. But I did like how XME wasn't all about Wolverine for once.

Wolverine & The X-Men was a unique and daring idea that ultimately just didn't work. Wolverine made a lousy leader (yeah, I know that was the point but it still didn't work), the other characters were greatly mishandled, especially Cyclops (who rightfully should have resumed the position of team leader by the end of the season; Logan looked like a hypocrite the way he would lean on Scott for periodically leaving the team to go off to pursue his own personal agendas when he would himself do the exact same thing on the very next episode; so basically Wolvie's m.o. was "Do as I say but don't do as I do"), and the whole thing just felt ragged (whenever you have an episode in which an entire team of super-powered mutants get pwned by non-powered ninjas just to make Wolvie look good, your series is in trouble).

Superpan

07-08-2011, 11:01 PM

I haven't seen Pryde of the X-Men and the X-Men's appearances in other cartoons pre-1992 were good, but nothing overly special.

X-Men: The Animated Series was my first real exposure to watching the X-Men mythos in action. It had mainly character-driven storylines, faithful to the comics, and the best media versions of Wolverine, Magneto, Beast, and many other X-Men characters than the other shows and even the movies. It might have been soap-operaish at times, but hey its Marvel Comics. Thats the appeal.

X-Men Evolution was a good show, but I feel....it's hard to put into words, but that there wasn't much to it. It felt like the characters were growing up and evolving, but I wasn't attached to them. Most of the episodes smacked of filler and while the characters might have cool designs, none of them struck me on a deeply personal level as they did on the 90's one. For instance, I'm a big Cyclops fan and on paper, the Evo version is the best of all Cyclops...but I always find myself thinking of the 90's version. Overall, I never really forged an extremely deep connection with this series.

Wolverine and the X-Men...oh, I had such high hopes for you. Promising to combine the stories of TAS and the slow character building of Evo, but turning out to be all flash and no substance. It just seemed to be a long string of action scenes broken up by lip service to character drama. I couldn't be affected by the characters acting out of character when I never even saw them act IN character before and that bothered me. I actually fell asleep in watching many of these episodes, if not all of these episodes in their first run. While I regret that they couldn't get to all their ideas, I would have hoped that would have come with an improvement in storytelling. Seeing as EMH suffers from many of the same problems in my eyes, I have lost most of my entusiasm for in-house Marvel animation from that creative team. Action scenes and nods to canon do not a good comic book show make. That said, I will admit this show had my favorite versions of Nightcrawler and the Maximoff twins and their episodes were good.

So, with all that said, X-Men: TAS remains for now the best version of the X-Men outside of the comics in my eyes. It had the most developed characters, interesting storylines, and it remained the most faithful to the comics.

Nygma

07-08-2011, 11:32 PM

I can understand why the show isn’t as well liked as the others (the high school aspect, different character interpretations, etc) but those felt minor to me compared to all the good parts of it.

Don't forget the shaky start of it. But otherwise I agree with the rest of what you said.

the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix sagas were pretty damn good.

I'm of the later mind in that it's too far out there for X-Men. Let me rephrase that I don't mind if you introduce Aliens or something like that, but I don't think it should play a major role in the series OR take 2 to 5 parts for a story.

WatX was a mixed bag mainly brought on by the over use of its star. He just overshadowed all the characters so it seemed like half the X-Men were just window dressing and did nothing.

I think the bigger problem with the show was that they never really understood Wolverine as a character.

I think Arsenal put it best:

my problem with this version of Wolverine was. He's only half of Wolverine.

I had not noticed until I saw the brief scene in "Breakdown" where Wolverine hit on Jean Grey. He was flirty, funny, irresponsible and more interesting than he had been in 20 previous episodes.

Wolverine can demand solitude and sulk about his missing memories. He can lead a team even though he's woefully underqualified.

But he can also be fun. He can take Nightcrawler on a pub crawl or tease Kitty about boys.

Super-serious Wolverine only works if he is contrasted with the funny, short-tempered brawler he was originally.

Wolverine as a character should've been alot more fun and witty then what he was portrayed as. And I don't think him being the leader was the main problem, he could've still been a leader AND been true to character. It sort of the same problem with Tony Stark in Iron Man Armored Adventures. Except not as bad there as it was here.

Rick Jones

07-09-2011, 12:11 AM

I've been watching all three series a lot lately and I'm a huge fan of all three, flaws and all. Each one gets things right that the others didn't and each one has their missteps but I think the pros always outweighed the cons when it came down to it. Until they manage to make that dream series for me, that combines all of its predecessors' strengths and none of the weaknesses, I think X-Men TAS will remain the show that gets that tiny edge over the others. Part of the reason would be nostalgia but I believe that it's still the show that handled the team the best.

Light Lucario

07-09-2011, 12:46 AM

Even though I think I did watch the 90's series, I barely remember it outside of a couple of episodes and the theme song, so I can't really compare it. I have seen most of the episodes for Evolution and the entire series of Wolverine and the X-Men. While I can understand why some people were turned off from X-Men Evolution due to the high school setting and aspects of the first couple of seasons, that never really bothered me that much. Maybe it helps that I didn't really see a lot of the 90's series and so I couldn't compare to start to both series at the time, but I was usually interested in the earlier episodes. I thought that some of the episodes in season one, such as the season finale and the episode where Mystique revealed herself as Nightcrawler's mother, were pretty good. I'll admit that the show got much better once mutants were revealed to the world and the characters had do deal with more intense situation. Though, one aspect of the show I never liked was how they brought in all of those new mutants at the start of the second season. I realize that they were trying to make Xavier school look more like a school with having more than a handful of students, but most of them felt like they were just there and neither never developed or received very little over the course of the series. As show continued, the action and story improved and I thought that it had a fairly satisfying conclusion at the end of the series.

As for Wolverine and the X-Men, I enjoyed seeing this series too. I agree that Wolverine took way too much screentime and attention away from the other X-Men, which prevented the majority of them from receiving any kind of development. Even so, I was still pretty engaged in the series from the first episode, if only because of the time travel aspect. I usually have a fun time watching time travel related shows or reading about them and while trying to figure this show's use of time travel is really confusing, it usually made me quite interested in seeing how the present and future storylines connected. As for Cyclops, I understand that he really loves Jean and her disappearance causing him to feel depressed made sense, but I think that they overdid it a bit, especially since he was pretty much obsessed with finding her for the bulk of the series and didn't realize that he needed to calm down for the sake of the team. Though, I really liked this version of Nightcrawler. Not only did he actually get a nice amount of screentime, but he was more interesting than most of the other characters to me and I enjoyed his episodes the most out of the series, along with the finale. Magneto's plan made me more interested in his character, especially with how it affected the future, and I liked the writing behind Angel's character as well.

I would probably need to rewatch both series to be sure, but based on what I remember now, I'd probably give Evolution the edge, if only because it had a better developed main cast of characters than Wolverine and the X-Men did. It really does help that Evolution had much more time to find what worked with the show and what didn't, as well as developing their characters. I think that if Wolverine and the X-Men had continued on for at least another couple of seasons, it probably would be able to fix its mistakes, or at least find a better balance between giving the characters screentime and development, and it would have been a much stronger show, especially since the ending to the first and only season made it clear that it needed a second season to continue its story. I don't think that a second season would have been perfect by any means, but it probably would have been a bit of an improvement, at least in some areas. Evolution, on the other hand, did a pretty good job with developing the core main cast of X-Men, which really does help it in this comparison, especially when that development helps to make the finale a pretty satisfying end to the series.

Eivion

07-09-2011, 01:36 AM

W.C.Reaf

07-09-2011, 06:45 AM

Don't forget the shaky start of it. But otherwise I agree with the rest of what you said.

Oh god yes. Season 1 was a badly written mess and most episodes contained too many plot holes and really needed to be redrafted before they finalised it. I think part of the problem was trying to fit in action in their stories and it left the action feeling forced and the stories feeling underdeveloped. What probably saved it were the characters and you could see what the creators were trying to do, even if they didn't succeed all the time. Season 2 was a big step-up in writing quality, the plots were tighter and the action was great. It's where the show really started to improve.

I'm of the later mind in that it's too far out there for X-Men. Let me rephrase that I don't mind if you introduce Aliens or something like that, but I don't think it should play a major role in the series OR take 2 to 5 parts for a story.

I agree with you. I hate that X-Men has these space opera stories when they should be about bigotry. It just takes something away from those stories if you throw aliens into the mix. But watching the Phoenix episodes recently I've got to admit they were the best of the show. The plot and animation were great, definitely above the previous two seasons, and it did feel like big dramatic events were happening. Even though I hate those stories in X-Men I've got to admit the 90s show hit them out of the park.

Superpan

07-09-2011, 04:21 PM

Whil I admit that I think the bigotry stories are the best X-Men stories and haven't really enjoyed most of the outer space stories, I always find it funny that people think those stories shouldn't be told with the X-Men since those stories were far more common than the bigotry stories until the mid-80's I think.

That said, the Friends of Humanity are another reason I think X-Men: TAS is the best one. They seemed like a far more threatening and realistic hate group and representation of bigotry than the MRD or....getting Jean's soccer trophy taken away? Mean prinicipal? Unimportant side characters conveniatnly being writtern out of the series? Exploitative Gatorade? Uh...did X-Men Evo ever cover that? I think Duncan joined a hate group in the last season, but that's about it

suss2it

07-09-2011, 04:50 PM

Though, one aspect of the show I never liked was how they brought in all of those new mutants at the start of the second season. I realize that they were trying to make Xavier school look more like a school with having more than a handful of students, but most of them felt like they were just there and neither never developed or received very little over the course of the series.They were never meant to though. They were just side characters that offered some comic relief. Although when Spyke left Iceman did get a lot more focus.

Whil I admit that I think the bigotry stories are the best X-Men stories and haven't really enjoyed most of the outer space stories, I always find it funny that people think those stories shouldn't be told with the X-Men since those stories were far more common than the bigotry stories until the mid-80's I think.

That said, the Friends of Humanity are another reason I think X-Men: TAS is the best one. They seemed like a far more threatening and realistic hate group and representation of bigotry than the MRD or....getting Jean's soccer trophy taken away? Mean prinicipal? Unimportant side characters conveniatnly being writtern out of the series? Exploitative Gatorade? Uh...did X-Men Evo ever cover that? I think Duncan joined a hate group in the last season, but that's about itYeah he did, it was in the episode were Spyke returns with more mutations. I think it was a really well done episode, one of their best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKlQyZNxpKM

W.C.Reaf

07-09-2011, 06:18 PM

That said, the Friends of Humanity are another reason I think X-Men: TAS is the best one. They seemed like a far more threatening and realistic hate group and representation of bigotry than the MRD or....getting Jean's soccer trophy taken away? Mean prinicipal? Unimportant side characters conveniatnly being writtern out of the series? Exploitative Gatorade? Uh...did X-Men Evo ever cover that? I think Duncan joined a hate group in the last season, but that's about it

Hate groups don't just pop-up overnight. The seeds were planted for it in season 4, as was an Anti-Mutant political campaign. If the show had continued we would've probably seen bigger Anti-Mutant sentiment.

While Evo lacked hate groups they made up for it by dealing with Mutant rights issues. Jean and Evan had to face their achievements being taken away due to them being different. Kurt had his girlfriend's parents forbid him from seeing her due to how he looks. They had to fight the school board in order for them to be allowed to stay in school. Jean's trophy, hell the entire soccer team coming under investigation, shows everything they do comes under scrutiny. Kurt nearly losing his girlfriend is a big example of interracial couples and what they face. Them being allowed in school was a small blow against Mutant segregation, but it was only one school.

Having a hate group gives a face to the bigotry, but having to fight just to have the same civil rights as everyone else is just as important. It shows that it's not just nut-jobs that are the problem for Mutants but everyday people who don't know better.

Superpan

07-09-2011, 06:24 PM

Hate groups don't just pop-up overnight. The seeds were planted for it in season 4, as was an Anti-Mutant political campaign. If the show had continued we would've probably seen bigger Anti-Mutant sentiment.

While Evo lacked hate groups they made up for it by dealing with Mutant rights issues. Jean and Evan had to face their achievements being taken away due to them being different. Kurt had his girlfriend's parents forbid him from seeing her due to how he looks. They had to fight the school board in order for them to be allowed to stay in school. Jean's trophy, hell the entire soccer team coming under investigation, shows everything they do comes under scrutiny. Kurt nearly losing his girlfriend is a big example of interracial couples and what they face. Them being allowed in school was a small blow against Mutant segregation, but it was only one school.

Having a hate group gives a face to the bigotry, but having to fight just to have the same civil rights as everyone else is just as important. It shows that it's not just nut-jobs that are the problem for Mutants but everyday people who don't know better.

True, true. X-Men Evo did cover it in a not so over the top fashion, but I'll admit that it always seemed weird considering the fact that the only mutants in the world seemed to live in Bayville. I mean if mutants' existence to the world was revealed and they seemed to all be people who lived in a certain town in New York, I would imagine the government would put much more effort in investigating them instead of just reviewing their sports achievements.

I agree they did a good job illustrating it on a smaller scale, but I'm always used to seeing the mutant prejudice on a larger scale and it seemed barely there, especially where it seems to me that mutants from all over the world should have been running to join the X-Men after the knowledge of their existence hit the international news.

W.C.Reaf

07-09-2011, 08:18 PM

True, true. X-Men Evo did cover it in a not so over the top fashion, but I'll admit that it always seemed weird considering the fact that the only mutants in the world seemed to live in Bayville. I mean if mutants' existence to the world was revealed and they seemed to all be people who lived in a certain town in New York, I would imagine the government would put much more effort in investigating them instead of just reviewing their sports achievements.

The only Mutants that the world knew about (in season 3 at least) lived in Bayville. But given the nature of mutation lots of people would be scared that anyone they knew could be a Mutant. Even I don't think the government would be stupid enough to try and just say they only exist in this one town, especially since those Mutants come from all over the world (and I have a very low opinion of government).

The government, well parts of it at least, already knew about Mutants though. SHIELD was keeping tight lipped on the subject and Trask found out about Mutants because of SHIELD. So investigating them was probably already done before the series even started (those that already knew probably started covering their butts as to why they didn't tell the world, as well). The government is not a single entity and things take time to be done too. Certain governing bodies worry about their own little corner, so to the people in charge of those sports achievements it is important to them that there's a review over this. There will be people (and, more importantly, parents as its school) wanting to deny the achievements for perceived foul play. While not important in the bigger picture it is these people’s jobs to question and go after any supposedly wrong sporting achievements handed out.

I agree they did a good job illustrating it on a smaller scale, but I'm always used to seeing the mutant prejudice on a larger scale and it seemed barely there, especially where it seems to me that mutants from all over the world should have been running to join the X-Men after the knowledge of their existence hit the international news.

We weren't shown a world outside of Bayville before Mutants became public so why start to in season 3. The rest of the world doesn't contain our heroes so any injustice hoist upon them gets the audience more emotionally involved than, say, random Mutants in Australia. That's just the nature of a 22 minute TV series, there's only so much you can do in that time so it needs to be used wisely. We never really saw the wider scale prejudice on any X-Men cartoon because of this.

Because of the outing the X-Men were the focus of the media and everything they did was in public scrutiny. They were the representatives of their race and anyone associated with them was just asking to be victimised. No Mutant would come running to Xavier's after the outing, they'd have went into deeper hiding afraid of being persecuted and going to Xavier's would just be asking for that persecution. There's a reason why Wolfsbane and Jubilee’s parents pulled them out of Xavier's school the second they were outted, so they'd be away from the hotspot of public Mutants. Away from the firing line.

suss2it

07-09-2011, 08:32 PM

Superpan

07-09-2011, 08:50 PM

Trevor

07-09-2011, 10:17 PM

Even though I think I did watch the 90's series, I barely remember it outside of a couple of episodes and the theme song, so I can't really compare it. I have seen most of the episodes for Evolution and the entire series of Wolverine and the X-Men.

One thing that the 90's series really has going for it was a very strong 13-episode story arc to start off the show in Season 1. Right from the start of Night Of The Sentinels all the way to the end of The Final Decision, where you have a number of episodes that feel like stand-alone's, but overall contribute to the season arc. Evolution & Wolverine and the X-Men never had anything even close for their opening seasons.

Monte

07-09-2011, 10:38 PM

One thing that the 90's series really has going for it was a very strong 13-episode story arc to start off the show in Season 1. Right from the start of Night Of The Sentinels all the way to the end of The Final Decision, where you have a number of episodes that feel like stand-alone's, but overall contribute to the season arc. Evolution & Wolverine and the X-Men never had anything even close for their opening seasons.
nothing even close?
The entire point of the majority of the 1st season of WatXM was repairing the sential driven future. Many of the episodes were about the team trying to fix things in the present to change the future. And other episodes were about magneto and genosha which was ALSO one of the factors that lead to that dark future that needed to be corrected. Even the pheonix was part of it. Sure there were some episodes that took a break from that acting as one shots, but the season had a very clear over arching plot behind it

Medinnus

07-09-2011, 11:41 PM

I think that the X:TAS did an excellent job of trying to present the gamut of the X-Men as a whole; its not like they knew at the beginning that there would be other series after it.

With the X:TAS as a base, to act as an intro to the X-franchise' rich and varied history, it allowed those who came after to focus on aspects which, while perhaps different in detail, held the same elemental resonance.

That said, I like the world-building as presented in W&tXM more than the others, although contra Yost and Fine, I don't think it would have worked well integrated with AEMH. continuity without some major heavy-lifting.

M.O.D.O.K.

07-10-2011, 12:48 PM

But also the characters were not as fully fleshed out as they were in the 90's series, and Rogue didn't have the Ms. Marvel package, so she was a rather forgettable character who really didn't have a reason to hang around.

So, superpowers alone determine whether a character is good or not?

Trevor

07-10-2011, 06:33 PM

nothing even close?
The entire point of the majority of the 1st season of WatXM was repairing the sential driven future. Many of the episodes were about the team trying to fix things in the present to change the future. And other episodes were about magneto and genosha which was ALSO one of the factors that lead to that dark future that needed to be corrected. Even the pheonix was part of it. Sure there were some episodes that took a break from that acting as one shots, but the season had a very clear over arching plot behind it

But the story wasn't as strong as the 90's series first season. With WATXM, even though it had 26 episodes, looking back on it, it almost feels like the producers and writers were trying to cram just about everything that the 90's X-Men covered in a 5 season, 76 episode show, into 26 episodes. Obviously there were some rather forgettable episodes in both shows (the Silver Samaurai episodes?, I didn't think the Silver Samaurai was an interesting adversary for Wolverine in the 90's show, and I really did not like the Silver Samaurai's appearance in WATXM). With the 90's show, for the first season, the producers didn't even know whether there was going to be a 2nd season, so they just made up a 13 episode arc that told the story of the X-Men, and if it was not picked up for a second season, then the series could end on a good note with the majority of the storylines tied up at the end of the season/series. With WATXM, even though a 2nd season had received a green light, when the first season was still being written there was no green light and the producers just seemed to assume that they would definitely be coming back for a Season 2, so they started numerous storylines that were not finished and could not be wrapped up by the end of Season 1.

So, superpowers alone determine whether a character is good or not?

No they don't, but at the same time, if the producers strip half-the-package, and then don't make the other half worth watching, then why leave the half-character in the show? And don't give me all the garbage about "Well it was going on in the comics...". I've maybe read 7 X-Men comics in my life, so as far as X-Men go, the shows, movies and games are the only things that I've seen about the X-Men. And the Rogue of the 90's series will always be THE Rogue, and without the Ms. Marvel powers, Rogue is a really uninteresting character because the producers and writers don't do enough to make up for the lack of the super-strength and flying abilities. Plus, then how could Rogue get such funny lines as "Let's go for a little moonlight swim. Don't get a moonburn!.

Superpan

07-10-2011, 07:05 PM

Monte

07-10-2011, 08:54 PM

No they don't, but at the same time, if the producers strip half-the-package, and then don't make the other half worth watching, then why leave the half-character in the show? And don't give me all the garbage about "Well it was going on in the comics...". I've maybe read 7 X-Men comics in my life, so as far as X-Men go, the shows, movies and games are the only things that I've seen about the X-Men. And the Rogue of the 90's series will always be THE Rogue, and without the Ms. Marvel powers, Rogue is a really uninteresting character because the producers and writers don't do enough to make up for the lack of the super-strength and flying abilities. Plus, then how could Rogue get such funny lines as "Let's go for a little moonlight swim. Don't get a moonburn!.
I could not disagree more.

I found Rogue in X-men Evolution to be one of my favorite incarnations of the character(and i haven't read x-men comics). First about the ms.marvel package, i think that actually made her less interesting as a fighter in the 90's series... all she ever did was fly around and hit stuff; flight and super strength are the most common superpower in action shows. Without those powers rogue was forced to adapt in a fight and it made it more interesting... without that super durability it made her much more vulnarable and she had to run around using a combination of fighting skill and borrowed powers to fight; I find it makes her fights much more interesting than seeing yet another superhero that flies in and smash stuff.

Second of all, rogue had TONS of great character moments throughout the series, many tied to her powers... from her introduction as she moved from the brotherhood to the X-men, her interaction and development with herself, mystique and Kurt played out well, and the same goes for her interactions with Scott and Jean. She even got some time to spend with gambit. i think one of my favorite episodes is when Rogue's powers goes nuts and she suffers a major identity crisis with those conflicting personalities. Frankly she had a great role in that series.

Can't really comment too much on 90's rogue since i don't have a strong enough memory to recall everything she went through. though i do recall liking her though

Didn't care much for WatXM rogue... my lasting impression of her character from that series was her being difficult because she didn't get enough attention from wolverine. Thinking about, i don't think that series ever made it clear why she had such a personal attachment to him in the first place...

Rabbitearsblog

07-11-2011, 02:28 AM

I'll admit I never got that criticism about Rogue. The essence of Rogue's character has always been that she can't touch anybody and how that affects her. So far, that's been represented in all versions of Rouge. While I do like the X-Men: TAS version of Rouge, I actually feel the Evo version of her, much like Cyclops, was the best version so far of her in her media appearances. It preserved the essence of the character while cutting alot of the camp out.

Best Rogue List in Superpan's opinion

1. X-Men Evolution
2. X-Men: TAS
3. Wolverine and the X-Men
4. X-Men movies

I couldn't agree with you even more. As much as I liked 90s Rogue, I felt that X-Men Evolution's version of Rogue was more real to the situation that she has to go through with her powers than the 90s version ever portrayed. I liked how X-Men Evolution's version of Rogue is presented as a teenager who is always distant towards everyone because of her powers. Rogue knows that her powers involves sucking other people's powers, so she often acts so grumpy and distant towards everyone because she doesn't want to hurt anyone with her powers, so she remains distant towards everyone.

Silverstar

07-11-2011, 09:08 AM

Ah, the Rogue thing. Seems to come up in every one of these "dueling X-Men show" threads. Here's my 2 cents:

I concede (and agree) that Evo's version of Rogue sans the Ms. Marvel package made more sense to that show's premise (as it would've required too much back story to portray a teenager as having already permanently absorbed the powers of a super-heroine, especially seeing as how Mystique and Rogue weren't full-blown super-villains like they were in TAS) and it made more sense to her character since the show's premise was to depict the 'evolution' of these characters and their growing mutations and the absorption is Rogue's natural mutant ability after all (though the the character's nonstop surly attitude got on my nerves after a while), and that showing Rogue without that power boost forced the writers to work harder to utilize what she could do in battle, since they had to be more creative with it.

That said, I still prefer the Ms. Marvel powered Rogue and probably always will. It could be because that was the version that introduced me to the character, or it could be because I actually don't mind flying and super-strength as abilities; overused, yes, but they're among my favorite power sets, or maybe it's just that my inner fanboy loved the tag-team of Rogue and Storm; I always liked the 2 of them together, and I never liked the idea of Storm being the only flying mutant on the team.

W.C.Reaf

07-11-2011, 10:41 AM

I know. I understand what the show was trying to do and I thought they did a good job with it, but what I felt was that X-Men should have a larger impact than one town. For instance, Xavier stopped recruiting mutants after the beginning of Season 2. I would think it'd be more important to get them after the big reveal, where there would understandably be a lot more people persecuted and confused because of what they were.

Xavier could've been looking for more Mutants, but that doesn't mean they'd want to come with him. Again anyone who joined Xavier would instantly become outted to the public as a Mutant and be constantly persecuted because of it. That's not an inviting prospect. I can see them recruiting more Mutants after season 4 since they saved the world, but not right after the public just became aware of Mutants.

That's probably what holds the show back as an X-Men show in my opinion. I think that the existence of mutants is one of the biggest parts of the Marvel Universe and because of that, the X-Men and their adventures should all exist on a fairly large scale. Evo didn't and maybe that's why I felt the bigotry wasn't as well done in scope as TAS and that's why I forget their depiction of bigotry, since in TAS, it was ever present while in Evo, it wasn't.

I wouldn't exactly say it was "ever present" since there are lots of episodes with them just being superheroes so it doesn't get brought up, like all the alien or Apocalypse episodes. To me it seems like when the FoH were introduced they were used as the stand in for all the shows bigotry. The X-Men didn't really do much against them either since whenever they'd show up all the X-Men did was beat them up. There's so much they could've done to show the X-Men trying to put a stop to the FoH, especially considering almost all the stuff they do is highly illegal.

I think the different portrayals of bigotry comes from how the shows were set-up. TAS they were living in the mansion, safe and secure, so they needed a visible form of bigotry they could use since it was harder to show it affecting the team’s everyday lives. In Evo they went to public school so everyday they had to face bigotry, the mansion wasn't that safe anymore since now everyone knew where they lived.

For instance, let's compare finales,

TAS Finale: Professor Xavier has an assassination attempt on his life by an human extremist and Magneto prepares to start a race war.

Evo finale: They're all fighting Apocalypse.

I think it's a little unfair to compare the finals since the two shows were doing different things. I don't remember the TAS final that well so I can't really comment on it, nor have I watched the Evo final recently. I'd have to watch them again before judging them.

And don't give me all the garbage about "Well it was going on in the comics...". I've maybe read 7 X-Men comics in my life, so as far as X-Men go, the shows, movies and games are the only things that I've seen about the X-Men. And the Rogue of the 90's series will always be THE Rogue,

See the X-Men series aren't made for you and are adaptations of the comics. Whenever they make a new series they consider what the current comics are doing and what stories they want to tell, new and old, and they don't consider the older shows except to avoid repeating what's come before. The 90s show was what the 90s comics looked like and used the same characters, since those characters have changed and grown in the comics the modern animated series look at those versions of the characters to use.

The next X-Men series might use the current version of Rogue since she's the most used version so the audience will have a familiarity with her. Or they could use Ms Marvel Rogue since she hasn't shown up since the 90s, so it'll be different than the recent stuff. They could even go completely new and take the pre-90s Rogue, who hasn't been adapted before, who has Ms Marvel in her but is different than the previous screen versions. All of them are valid versions of the character to use.

Superpan

07-11-2011, 01:18 PM

Xavier could've been looking for more Mutants, but that doesn't mean they'd want to come with him. Again anyone who joined Xavier would instantly become outted to the public as a Mutant and be constantly persecuted because of it. That's not an inviting prospect. I can see them recruiting more Mutants after season 4 since they saved the world, but not right after the public just became aware of Mutants.

I wouldn't exactly say it was "ever present" since there are lots of episodes with them just being superheroes so it doesn't get brought up, like all the alien or Apocalypse episodes. To me it seems like when the FoH were introduced they were used as the stand in for all the shows bigotry. The X-Men didn't really do much against them either since whenever they'd show up all the X-Men did was beat them up. There's so much they could've done to show the X-Men trying to put a stop to the FoH, especially considering almost all the stuff they do is highly illegal.

I think the different portrayals of bigotry comes from how the shows were set-up. TAS they were living in the mansion, safe and secure, so they needed a visible form of bigotry they could use since it was harder to show it affecting the team’s everyday lives. In Evo they went to public school so everyday they had to face bigotry, the mansion wasn't that safe anymore since now everyone knew where they lived.

I think it's a little unfair to compare the finals since the two shows were doing different things. I don't remember the TAS final that well so I can't really comment on it, nor have I watched the Evo final recently. I'd have to watch them again before judging them.

.

Well, all those points do make sense. However, in my viewpoint, it felt as if the bigotry was more essential to TAS then it was to Evo. TAS had the Mutant Registration in the first episode, the Sentinels story arc, Genosha, the cure, Astroid M, etc...I'll admit that they didn't do it perfectly and it isn't as omnipresent as it has been in the movies and Wolverine and the X-Men, but it was an important element.

X-Men Evolution was, in my opinion, more of a character-based superhero show. That was a perfectly legitimate way to go and I enjoyed it. However, the bigotry was only there as side things outside of a few episodes which didn't leave much of an impression on me. For instance, I don't recall any of the X-Men facing discrimination on the cruise ship or such. It may seem like I'm nitpicking, but I'm saying I would have preferred an X-Men series to focus on that more. For instance, Asteroid M would have worked better if it had really been a sanctuary for the mutants of the world instead of the 14 or so mutants from Bayville, New York.

Trevor

07-11-2011, 03:56 PM

See the X-Men series aren't made for you and are adaptations of the comics. Whenever they make a new series they consider what the current comics are doing and what stories they want to tell, new and old, and they don't consider the older shows except to avoid repeating what's come before. The 90s show was what the 90s comics looked like and used the same characters, since those characters have changed and grown in the comics the modern animated series look at those versions of the characters to use.

So what are you saying, that people should only watch the show if they've read the comics? That's being pretty biased. That is no way to produce a show: that's the sort of thinking on the producers part that killed the Star Trek series in 2005, because it pushed the series into a very narrow niche. And, as I recall on a bonus feature for one of the X-Men Evolution discs (possible the Season 1 Volume 1 disc), Chris Boyd mentioned that in creating Evolution they had to remember that the people watching the shows at first were going to be people who either got into the series by one of two options:

1. the comics
2. the 90's X-Men TV series

And while there are a lot of people who do read the comics, there are probably a ton more people like myself who have either read a few or none at all and we have no idea what storylines the producers are pulling from. And even with WATXM and any newer [i}X-Men[/i] shows, the producers are going to have to remember that in order to draw people to the franchise, they have to make it appeal to a broad audience and not just a tiny niche that's there because of the comics.

suss2it

07-11-2011, 04:33 PM

X-Men Evolution was, in my opinion, more of a character-based superhero show. That was a perfectly legitimate way to go and I enjoyed it. However, the bigotry was only there as side things outside of a few episodes which didn't leave much of an impression on me. For instance, I don't recall any of the X-Men facing discrimination on the cruise ship or such. It may seem like I'm nitpicking, but I'm saying I would have preferred an X-Men series to focus on that more. For instance, Asteroid M would have worked better if it had really been a sanctuary for the mutants of the world instead of the 14 or so mutants from Bayville, New York.They did face discrimination in that episode. It's why the left the cruise and ended up on that tropical island, where they felt welcomed and appreciated. So that episode did deal with discrimination. Then there's the episode where Spyke returns and fights against people who are actively discriminating his fellow Morlocks. Plus a good amount of season 3 dealt with discrimination as well. From Nightcrawler's relationship with Amanda, to Jean losing her accolades, and from the Brotherhood deciding to use the fear people have of them to their advantage.

Monte

07-11-2011, 07:00 PM

So what are you saying, that people should only watch the show if they've read the comics? That's being pretty biased. That is no way to produce a show: that's the sort of thinking on the producers part that killed the Star Trek series in 2005, because it pushed the series into a very narrow niche. And, as I recall on a bonus feature for one of the X-Men Evolution discs (possible the Season 1 Volume 1 disc), Chris Boyd mentioned that in creating Evolution they had to remember that the people watching the shows at first were going to be people who either got into the series by one of two options:

1. the comics
2. the 90's X-Men TV series

And while there are a lot of people who do read the comics, there are probably a ton more people like myself who have either read a few or none at all and we have no idea what storylines the producers are pulling from. And even with WATXM and any newer [i}X-Men[/i] shows, the producers are going to have to remember that in order to draw people to the franchise, they have to make it appeal to a broad audience and not just a tiny niche that's there because of the comics.

You missed one... the first X-men movie
The first x-men movie came out only a few months before X-men evolution and was accessible to a very wide audience, and the film gave us a rogue before the ms.marvel package

And frankly speaking as someone who grew up on the 90's series and did not read comics, i found that rogue to be perfectly acceptable since i knew that in rogue's early life she did not have super strength and flight... in a series about the x-men as teens and the earliest days of the team it only made sense to give us a rogue before her Ms.Marvel encounter. for many fans of the 90's series this was plenty acceptable

And speaking of the broad audience, thanks to the movies, X-men Evolution and WatXM, the broad audience actually knows rogue better without the ms.marvel package. it's effectively been 15 years since we've seen rogue use super strength and flight outside of the comics. Only ones who know of that rogue are older fans, and comic fans... in a way, if you are hoping to see Rogue with strength and flight in a future x-men series, then you are asking Marvel to cater to the niche'

Superpan

07-11-2011, 07:10 PM

They did face discrimination in that episode. It's why the left the cruise and ended up on that tropical island, where they felt welcomed and appreciated. So that episode did deal with discrimination. Then there's the episode where Spyke returns and fights against people who are actively discriminating his fellow Morlocks. Plus a good amount of season 3 dealt with discrimination as well. From Nightcrawler's relationship with Amanda, to Jean losing her accolades, and from the Brotherhood deciding to use the fear people have of them to their advantage.

Ah, okay then. Well, my point is that it wasn't very memorable or impressionable on me, while X-Men: TAS hit me much harder with its depictions and generally did a better job of it in my opinion.

W.C.Reaf

07-11-2011, 08:37 PM

Well, all those points do make sense. However, in my viewpoint, it felt as if the bigotry was more essential to TAS then it was to Evo. TAS had the Mutant Registration in the first episode, the Sentinels story arc, Genosha, the cure, Astroid M, etc...I'll admit that they didn't do it perfectly and it isn't as omnipresent as it has been in the movies and Wolverine and the X-Men, but it was an important element.

We just have a different of opinion of what worked well and what didn't in both shows. For TAS I didn't think it was as present as it could've been and part of that was due to the use of FoH as the big Anti-Mutant group so they didn't feel the need to give a broader sense of bigotry. In season 1 they did it fairly well (the episodes you listed are all from season 1 except Asteroid M) the Mutant Registration stuff and Senator Kelly made it feel like the world (or at least America) really hated Mutants, season 2 onwards it mainly felt like it was just one group of bigots.

X-Men Evolution was, in my opinion, more of a character-based superhero show. That was a perfectly legitimate way to go and I enjoyed it. However, the bigotry was only there as side things outside of a few episodes which didn't leave much of an impression on me. For instance, I don't recall any of the X-Men facing discrimination on the cruise ship or such. It may seem like I'm nitpicking, but I'm saying I would have preferred an X-Men series to focus on that more. For instance, Asteroid M would have worked better if it had really been a sanctuary for the mutants of the world instead of the 14 or so mutants from Bayville, New York.

The point of the cruise ship was that when the passengers found out they were Mutants the cruise went to hell for them, it was much more of a "I'm spending my vacation with those people?" discrimination rather than a big display of bigotry. I think your problem with this issue is that Evo did too much of the smaller scale bigotry rather than the bigger stuff TAS did. Which is actually why I like Evo's handling of it more than TAS as we saw it impacting the characters more.

I will agree that Evo's Asteroid M story was pretty bad. It's funny that Magneto's plot in it was a lot more of an Apocalypse one (survival of the fittest and brainwashing power improvement machine) and Apocalypse’s plot in the final was more of Magneto's plot from the first X-Men film (turning everyone into a Mutant). I can kinda see Apocalypse doing that, especially since the "weak" would die from it, but Magneto wouldn't do a survival of the fittest for Mutants. I'm glad they dropped that after season 1.

So what are you saying, that people should only watch the show if they've read the comics? That's being pretty biased. That is no way to produce a show: that's the sort of thinking on the producers part that killed the Star Trek series in 2005, because it pushed the series into a very narrow niche. And, as I recall on a bonus feature for one of the X-Men Evolution discs (possible the Season 1 Volume 1 disc), Chris Boyd mentioned that in creating Evolution they had to remember that the people watching the shows at first were going to be people who either got into the series by one of two options:

1. the comics
2. the 90's X-Men TV series

And while there are a lot of people who do read the comics, there are probably a ton more people like myself who have either read a few or none at all and we have no idea what storylines the producers are pulling from. And even with WATXM and any newer [i}X-Men[/i] shows, the producers are going to have to remember that in order to draw people to the franchise, they have to make it appeal to a broad audience and not just a tiny niche that's there because of the comics.

Nope I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that you shouldn't expect all the X-Men series to be based off of the 90s show, since you were calling the argument that they're making Rogue like her comic character "garbage" because you don't read X-Men comics. I did not say "people should only watch the show if they've read the comics" nor did I imply it and I don't know where you got that impression from.

You seem to be the one pushing for the narrow niche of making shows like they were in the 90s. Since the source material has moved on from that point why shouldn't the shows?

Superpan

07-11-2011, 08:59 PM

We just have a different of opinion of what worked well and what didn't in both shows. I think your problem with this issue is that Evo did too much of the smaller scale bigotry rather than the bigger stuff TAS did. Which is actually why I like Evo's handling of it more than TAS as we saw it impacting the characters more.

That hits it right on the nail. That said, I will admit that Evo was more regular in continuing their take on the bigotry constant in comparison to X-Men: TAS which pretty much ignored it for much of Seasons 3, 4, and 5.

W.C.Reaf

07-12-2011, 08:03 AM

That hits it right on the nail. That said, I will admit that Evo was more regular in continuing their take on the bigotry constant in comparison to X-Men: TAS which pretty much ignored it for much of Seasons 3, 4, and 5.

Now all Marvel need to do make a great X-Men show is to have a mix of Evo and TAS' take on bigotry.

JTMarsh

07-12-2011, 12:43 PM

Favorite X-Men cartoon... hmm...

I suppose the 90s X-Men series will always be my favorite despite it's sometimes clunky dialogue and inconsistent animation. It was the series that introduced me to the X-universe after all, and I still tend to hear those voices in my head when I pick up an X-book.

It took me a while to appreciate X-Men: Evolution, since when I first saw previews I was like "What the...?" It wasn't until I saw a few episodes on DVD that the series grew on me. Even when the plots and action were underwhelming it featured a well written ensemble cast of characters who were fun and engaging and didn't let Wolverine hog the limelight. And it easily featured the best version of Jean Grey in animation (I don't care if Quesada & the other guys at Marvel do hate Jean - RIP - while championing Emma Frost, I will always have a soft spot for the red head).

Wolverine & the X-Men was too much of a mixed bag for me. Certainly it had its good points - strong voice cast (even though Nolan North was badly miscast as Cyclops - Crispin Freeman would have been a better chioce), great characterizations for Nightcrawler, Magneto, Mr. Sinister (Clancy Brown FTW), Emma Frost (though I'm sure some wished she had been more 'naughty'), Scarlet Witch, and some genuinely good action scenes. There were even genuinely touching episodes like "Guardian Angel". But the writing was often inconsistent and resulted in some episodes that were either lackluster (Wolverine Vs. the Hulk - or just about any Wolvie filler ep) or downright stupid ("Code of Conduct" where all the X-Men - sans Nightcrawler - get kidnapped by ninjas and Cycke's botched origin story in "Breakdown" come to mind). Additionally, the X-Men themselves did not have a very strong team dynamic and many were not really fleshed out beyond their basic archetypes; like the films, they were little more than Wolverine's back up band, and I've had enough of that to last me a lifetime. Filler episodes wasted on Wolverine having G-rated fights with the Hulk could have been used to flesh out Beast, Iceman, Storm (who always seems to get the short end of the stick), Kitty, etc.By the time the big finale came it was hard to care if the X-Team lived or died since I felt like I never got to know any of them very well. And Future Xavier's "You must lead them Logan" line felt like it was ripped right out of someone's fan fiction story. Though I would have liked to have heard more of Jennifer Hale as Jean Grey (even if the writers did go out of their way to write a terrible rendition of her relationship with Cyclops just so the audience would root for Emma) and was curious to see how season 2's AOA adaptation would play out, I can't honestly say I'm sorry the show is gone - especially not when we have the superior "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

Miyamoto Musashi

07-12-2011, 04:02 PM

X-Men Evolution, I love a lot of things in it:

Started as teenagers, I have a thing for teenage heroes
Not a high focus on Wolverine, but he was still important
Loved the "mingle with humans in their high school"
Wolverine is not a smoker, and he doesn't have the "Oh, Jeeeean" thing
Beast, Storm, Wolverine as instructors
Cyclops did get angry and angst as a teen, but he managed to remain fun and a great leader, my favorite moment is when he traps Mystique in the military base
Love the tri-senteniels design, sure beats the original
Nightcrawler is one of the most important tema players
Iceman had an important role, though not-existing in the first season, he's my favorite mutant
No focus on the Phoenix
Love the designs in general, and loosening the usual hair style for Wolverine
I think I saw enough of Wolverine & the X-Men to say it's my second favorite, followed by Wolverine's anime

Dark Phoenix and the voice acting made me cringe every time I watch the 90s cartoon, and not a fan of that 80s episode, I don't like either that much

X-Men newest animated series so far feels more campy than good, too much anger, needs more fun

Trevor

07-12-2011, 08:13 PM

You missed one... the first X-men movie
The first x-men movie came out only a few months before X-men evolution and was accessible to a very wide audience, and the film gave us a rogue before the ms.marvel package

Even though the first X-Men movie came out a few months before Evolution, XE would've been in production a long-time before then, and the producers would've only known that they're audience would only be from 2 sources: the comics and the 90's TV show.

And frankly speaking as someone who grew up on the 90's series and did not read comics, i found that rogue to be perfectly acceptable since i knew that in rogue's early life she did not have super strength and flight... in a series about the x-men as teens and the earliest days of the team it only made sense to give us a rogue before her Ms.Marvel encounter. for many fans of the 90's series this was plenty acceptable

The first couple of times that I saw the movie, I didn't even recognize Rogue as Rogue till the end of the movie, and again, aside from being the catalyst for Magneto's plan, Rogue really played no significant role in the movie and was more of a nuisance.

And speaking of the broad audience, thanks to the movies, X-men Evolution and WatXM, the broad audience actually knows rogue better without the ms.marvel package. it's effectively been 15 years since we've seen rogue use super strength and flight outside of the comics. Only ones who know of that rogue are older fans, and comic fans... in a way, if you are hoping to see Rogue with strength and flight in a future x-men series, then you are asking Marvel to cater to the niche'

Not quite, since there are still a ton of young kids seeing that Rogue thanks to DVD. And from what I can find out, up here in Canada, the 90's X-Men seems to be the more-readily available X-Men series, since even though none of the 3 series are currently on the air, as far as DVD's go the complete 90's series is available in most department and electronic stores, with either one or all five volumes being available, whereas X-Men Evolution has zero DVD's in stores right now, and the only DVD's available to the general public in Canada of WATXM (aside from importing the American Lionsgate DVD's from Amazon or some other online store) are the 3 DVD's that Liberation released individually, but those are extremely tough to find (Liberation's complete series has been out of print for a while now, and Volumes 4 and 5 were never released), and considering that Liberation no longer exists, who knows how long those DVD's are going to be available. Sure kids can see all three series on Marvel.com (although WATXM only goes up to episode 12), there is no other online availablilty in Canada for the shows, so kids can't exactly download them to their iPod (unless they know how to rip a DVD to iPod) and take them around.

But from what I see of the US, again the two X-Men shows that appear to be in wide release are the 90's show and WATXM (and the movies, but if you are showing X-Men to a five-year-old, are you really going to be letting them watch the movies?). But, at the same time, the kids might also be only exposed to the 90's show if that is the only show the parent recognizes because they watched it when they were younger.

suss2it

07-12-2011, 08:32 PM

Not quite, since there are still a ton of young kids seeing that Rogue thanks to DVD. And from what I can find out, up here in Canada, the 90's X-Men seems to be the more-readily available X-Men series, since even though none of the 3 series are currently on the air, as far as DVD's go the complete 90's series is available in most department and electronic stores, with either one or all five volumes being available, whereas X-Men Evolution has zero DVD's in stores right now, and the only DVD's available to the general public in Canada of WATXM (aside from importing the American Lionsgate DVD's from Amazon or some other online store) are the 3 DVD's that Liberation released individually, but those are extremely tough to find (Liberation's complete series has been out of print for a while now, and Volumes 4 and 5 were never released), and considering that Liberation no longer exists, who knows how long those DVD's are going to be available. Sure kids can see all three series on Marvel.com (although WATXM only goes up to episode 12), there is no other online availablilty in Canada for the shows, so kids can't exactly download them to their iPod (unless they know how to rip a DVD to iPod) and take them around.

But from what I see of the US, again the two X-Men shows that appear to be in wide release are the 90's show and WATXM (and the movies, but if you are showing X-Men to a five-year-old, are you really going to be letting them watch the movies?). But, at the same time, the kids might also be only exposed to the 90's show if that is the only show the parent recognizes because they watched it when they were younger.In Canada X-Men: Evolution is available both legitimately on YouTube and the Sony PS store. Kids nowadays are for more likely to be associated with the latest cartoons, WatXM, and then Evolution, rather than a cartoon from nearly two decades ago.

Monte

07-12-2011, 08:56 PM

Even though the first X-Men movie came out a few months before Evolution, XE would've been in production a long-time before then, and the producers would've only known that they're audience would only be from 2 sources: the comics and the 90's TV show.

not exactly. Remember both the tv show and the movies are utlimately creations of Marvel. It is likely no coincidence that X-men evolution came out only a few months after the movie; The success of the movie may have easily helped push x-men back into the memories of people so that they would be more hyped for the series that would come out later that year. Both the series and the movie would have been in production at the same time and it would take nothing at all for Marvel to tell both teams "start with early non-Ms.Marvel Rogue"

In Canada X-Men: Evolution is available both legitimately on YouTube and the Sony PS store. Kids nowadays are for more likely to be associated with the latest cartoons, WatXM, and then Evolution, rather than a cartoon from nearly two decades ago.
indeed... unlike the 90's series and WatXM, Evolution is available for free and is by far the most accessible series. Not to mention that Watxm ALSO gaves us non-MS.Marvel rogue... both are legit interpretations of the character, but I think the less powerful rogue is the one young teens know much better

W.C.Reaf

07-12-2011, 08:56 PM

Even though the first X-Men movie came out a few months before Evolution, XE would've been in production a long-time before then, and the producers would've only known that they're audience would only be from 2 sources: the comics and the 90's TV show.

Nope. While the show was made at the same time as the movie was being made they still knew a movie was coming and there'd be hype for X-Men when the show started.

One of the things they did was to make Sabretooth look like his movie version. I don't know if it was pushed on them by higher ups or if they saw the design and liked it, but it was directly lifted from the movie.

But from what I see of the US, again the two X-Men shows that appear to be in wide release are the 90's show and WATXM (and the movies, but if you are showing X-Men to a five-year-old, are you really going to be letting them watch the movies?). But, at the same time, the kids might also be only exposed to the 90's show if that is the only show the parent recognizes because they watched it when they were younger.

That's a flimsy supposition at best. Sure there's access to the 90s show now that it's just been released on DVD but that doesn't mean kids "might only be exposed" to it. Since there's the other shows on DVD and showing on TV somewhere, as well as the movies, the kids will get a chance to see multiple versions of the characters and not just one.

It being more available now than it was before doesn't change the fact that in all other media, and comics now, Rogue does not have Ms Marvel's powers, so it's a greater chance that a kids first exposure to the character will be that Rogue rather than the 90s one. Surely the "broader" audience would be the one with the greater chance of exposure to the character.

Superpan

07-12-2011, 09:46 PM

Uh...while I agree that the non-overpowered Rogue is the one that's has the most exposure, I have to disagree that X-Men: TAS is completely foreign to the young people of today. I know most of the X-Men fans in my age group watched the show when it was on Jetix all the time and Disney still airs it at 1 in the morning. Unless we're talking about 8 and 5 year olds, who probably aren't even aware the comics exist.

Monte

07-12-2011, 10:05 PM

I have to disagree that X-Men: TAS is completely foreign to the young people of today.
who said anything about it being completely foreign
The only thing that was said about was that the broad younger audience is more familiar with the newer shows and are more likely to associate x-men with the newer shows rather than the older show.

W.C.Reaf

07-12-2011, 11:27 PM

who said anything about it being completely foreign
The only thing that was said about was that the broad younger audience is more familiar with the newer shows and are more likely to associate x-men with the newer shows rather than the older show.

Exactly. Kids will still watch the 90s show, but they will also watch all the others and the movies, so they aren't just getting the 90s versions of the characters. More than likely this'll get them adjusted to multiple versions of the X-Men so there won't be that many "they changed it now it sucks" complaints from them whenever a new series.

It's a futile hope but one I want to keep alive.

Rabbitearsblog

07-16-2011, 02:24 PM

Wolverine & the X-Men was too much of a mixed bag for me. Certainly it had its good points - strong voice cast (even though Nolan North was badly miscast as Cyclops - Crispin Freeman would have been a better chioce), great characterizations for Nightcrawler, Magneto, Mr. Sinister (Clancy Brown FTW), Emma Frost (though I'm sure some wished she had been more 'naughty'), Scarlet Witch, and some genuinely good action scenes. There were even genuinely touching episodes like "Guardian Angel". But the writing was often inconsistent and resulted in some episodes that were either lackluster (Wolverine Vs. the Hulk - or just about any Wolvie filler ep) or downright stupid ("Code of Conduct" where all the X-Men - sans Nightcrawler - get kidnapped by ninjas and Cycke's botched origin story in "Breakdown" come to mind). Additionally, the X-Men themselves did not have a very strong team dynamic and many were not really fleshed out beyond their basic archetypes; like the films, they were little more than Wolverine's back up band, and I've had enough of that to last me a lifetime. Filler episodes wasted on Wolverine having G-rated fights with the Hulk could have been used to flesh out Beast, Iceman, Storm (who always seems to get the short end of the stick), Kitty, etc.By the time the big finale came it was hard to care if the X-Team lived or died since I felt like I never got to know any of them very well. And Future Xavier's "You must lead them Logan" line felt like it was ripped right out of someone's fan fiction story. Though I would have liked to have heard more of Jennifer Hale as Jean Grey (even if the writers did go out of their way to write a terrible rendition of her relationship with Cyclops just so the audience would root for Emma) and was curious to see how season 2's AOA adaptation would play out, I can't honestly say I'm sorry the show is gone - especially not when we have the superior "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

I haven't seen this show yet, but I have heard a lot of praise and complaints about this show. Probably the biggest problem in my eyes is that the show rarely focuses on the other X-Men characters and only focused on Wolverine. I know that this show is called "Wolverine and the X-Men," so it has to be somewhat focused on Wolverine, but at the same time, "X-Men" is also in the title and therefore this series should also be focused on the other X-Men. Probably this show's biggest weakness was lack of character development, even though I heard some episodes were really good, but seeing as this was just the first season, it's unclear whether or not the creators wanted to expand more on the X-Men team in the next season.

Monte

07-16-2011, 07:34 PM

I know that this show is called "Wolverine and the X-Men," so it has to be somewhat focused on Wolverine, but at the same time, "X-Men" is also in the title and therefore this series should also be focused on the other X-Men.
Well yes you might say that the x-men as a whole got as much time as wolverine got... however when you break the x-men up individually that means very little time. It's like wolverine got a good deal more than 50% of the show's focus while the rest of the X-men got the lesser half, but that lesser half had to be shared by about a dozen different characters. When it comes down to it, i'd say Emma, Xavier and Nightcrawler are the only ones that got decent treatment. Cyclops got a good amount of attention but it only made him look bad. Rogue looked like she might have gotten somewhere but it kind of falls flat. Angel got one good episode and that was it and the rest were largely just pushed to the side. Sure they were always around and fought, but they didn't really do anything all that note worthy.

I feel like the reason the series is so highly praised is because the individual episodes are well written and the plot itself plays out well (though i do think there are some hiccups along the way). You would be hard pressed to find someone who did not enjoy many of the episodes and the plotline... its only when you step back and really think about how little many of the x-men were utilized do you notice where the series falls short... really when it comes down to it, this series could have spent less time on wolverine and more time on the rest of the cast and the individual episodes and overarching story still would have been just as good. If the rest of the x-men were better utlized this series could have been damn near close to perfect

Probably this show's biggest weakness was lack of character development, even though I heard some episodes were really good, but seeing as this was just the first season, it's unclear whether or not the creators wanted to expand more on the X-Men team in the next season.

I somehow doubt the 2nd season would have changed much; especially not when the 1st season got a good amount of praise... If i recall, when the writers first started they were gonna make a wolverine solo series, but then for some reason they decided to tack on the rest of the x-men... Frankly i feel like it was hard coded in the show's premise that wolverine should be the lead character... and it shows.

I mean the gernal plot itself feels like it was structured just as an excuse to put wolverine in the lead... Put the professor into a coma and put Jean on the bus for the season which in turn makes Cyclops go into depression and angst... Hell there was no reason for wolverine to be team leader hen you realize storm would probably have been a better choice... and despite being the team's leader the writers still had him going off on his own solo adventures that had nothing to do with the plot... its not hard to guess that season 2 would have done the same with us taking time away form the x-men so wolverine could pursue his own stories... x-23, omega red, lady death strike, deadpool, captain america, etc... the weapon X program itself is a quagmire...

BigEclipse

07-17-2011, 05:54 PM

Picking a favorite X-Men series is difficult. Being a diehard, life-long X-men fan I have had a love/hate relationship with all three shows. The 90’s series debuted at the apex of the X-Men’s popularity, and I was so eagerly anticipating the show I practically built a shrine dedicated to the show. At the time, I didn’t think the show could be any better: Its cast mirrored that of the current comic roster, it was serialized just as a comic would be, and even contained mature themes like death a bigotry. The animation was spotty, but the stories more than made up for that deficiency. However, after the third season, the show dropped the serialization aspect and scaled back on the poignant storylines. I didn’t particularly like the stand-alone episodes and found that they stated to focus a bit too much on Wolverine. By the series’ fifth season, I barely watched and was largely disappointed by the finale. This was in stark contrast to the first season where I couldn’t stand to miss a single episode and had to record them all for posterity.

Evolution didn’t pique my interest from the start. The thought of a teenage X-Men series geared towards younger viewers didn’t sit well with me. In truth, I bailed on the series after the sixth episode. In hindsight, that wasn’t a great idea. I re-discovered the show in Cartoon Network rerun and kicked myself for missing it. Though it may have started rather tepidly, Evolution really understood the characters surrounding the X-Men mythos, and the series really, for lack of a better word, “evolved” as it progressed. Not only did they bring in new characters to the main roster (a feat the 90s series NEVER did in its five season run), but also added to the recurring roster. The New Mutants even appeared in the series as a whole. By the time the abbreviated 4th season arrived, Evolution had all but superseded the 90s show as my favorite X-Men series and I was very disappointed at WBs decision not to renew it. To this day, Evolution has remained the most beautifully animated Marvel Cartoon to date.

When Wolverine and The X-Men was announced I was elated. I had been clamoring for a new X-Men series, not to mention a new Marvel series for some time. The viral trailer that leaked only whet my appetite and had me convinced that this would be the X-Men series to eclipse all X-Men shows. The character designs seemed to be somewhat akin to those of Evolution, but the fast paced action seemed to elicit feelings of the original 90s series. When “Hindsight” debuted on Nicktoons I wasn’t as impressed as I thought I would be, but the show had potential. Therein lied the problem. It had potential, but never really lived up to that potential. There were flashes of sheer brilliance, “Breakdown” immediately coming to mind, with one of the only animated versions of the actual First Class of the team. I felt at times the show tried too hard, and the three part series finale, “Foresight” was the perfect example of this. In those three episodes the producers decided to cram three classic X-Men storylines into a little over a one hour running time. The final scene of the final episode gave viewers hope for its second season, but sadly the series was cancelled before we could see a proper animated version of the Age of Apocalypse.

If I had to pick a favorite, I would have to pick Evolution simply based on the fact that the series producers understood the characters and knew where the series was going. I so wanted W&TXM to be better, but I was content with what I got and it runs second. The 90s show is a sentimental favorite, but unlike Evolution, the show seemed to drop off in quality as it went on. Still, as an X-men fan I enjoyed all three. I eagerly await the next series and pray that I get the complete X-men experience I crave.

JTMarsh

07-19-2011, 03:27 PM

Well yes you might say that the x-men as a whole got as much time as wolverine got... however when you break the x-men up individually that means very little time. It's like wolverine got a good deal more than 50% of the show's focus while the rest of the X-men got the lesser half, but that lesser half had to be shared by about a dozen different characters. When it comes down to it, i'd say Emma, Xavier and Nightcrawler are the only ones that got decent treatment. Cyclops got a good amount of attention but it only made him look bad. Rogue looked like she might have gotten somewhere but it kind of falls flat. Angel got one good episode and that was it and the rest were largely just pushed to the side. Sure they were always around and fought, but they didn't really do anything all that note worthy.

I feel like the reason the series is so highly praised is because the individual episodes are well written and the plot itself plays out well (though i do think there are some hiccups along the way). You would be hard pressed to find someone who did not enjoy many of the episodes and the plotline... its only when you step back and really think about how little many of the x-men were utilized do you notice where the series falls short... really when it comes down to it, this series could have spent less time on wolverine and more time on the rest of the cast and the individual episodes and overarching story still would have been just as good. If the rest of the x-men were better utlized this series could have been damn near close to perfect

I somehow doubt the 2nd season would have changed much; especially not when the 1st season got a good amount of praise... If i recall, when the writers first started they were gonna make a wolverine solo series, but then for some reason they decided to tack on the rest of the x-men... Frankly i feel like it was hard coded in the show's premise that wolverine should be the lead character... and it shows.

I mean the gernal plot itself feels like it was structured just as an excuse to put wolverine in the lead... Put the professor into a coma and put Jean on the bus for the season which in turn makes Cyclops go into depression and angst... Hell there was no reason for wolverine to be team leader hen you realize storm would probably have been a better choice... and despite being the team's leader the writers still had him going off on his own solo adventures that had nothing to do with the plot... its not hard to guess that season 2 would have done the same with us taking time away form the x-men so wolverine could pursue his own stories... x-23, omega red, lady death strike, deadpool, captain america, etc... the weapon X program itself is a quagmire...
Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better if they'd stuck to the original idea of a solo Wolverine show... or maybe if it would have been better to have Cyclops "mysteriously disappear" along with Jean and give his screen time to Colossus (since none of Cycke's eps were particularly good and we all know Colossus is in desperate need of screen time).

Monte

07-19-2011, 08:26 PM

Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better if they'd stuck to the original idea of a solo Wolverine show...
I would have preferred that over WatXM.
Wolverine likely does have plenty of stories to make a solo series out of him. plus unlike WatXM, a wolverine series would not necessarily get in the way of a proper x-men series. See the main reason I don't want to see WatXM revived for another season is because the more time we spend on WatXM, the more time we must wait for an x-men series that will treat the whole cast well. A wolverine solo series however would not get in the way... kind of like how we have iron man armor adventures and A:EMH, its not hard to believe we could have both a wolverine solo series and an x-men series at the same time; but marvel would likely not have two x-men series running at the same time... I like wolverine and would not mind a solo series for him... but I also like the rest of the x-men and want to see a good series that gives us the most out of all of them

Rabbitearsblog

07-19-2011, 11:32 PM

I would have preferred that over WatXM.
Wolverine likely does have plenty of stories to make a solo series out of him. plus unlike WatXM, a wolverine series would not necessarily get in the way of a proper x-men series. See the main reason I don't want to see WatXM revived for another season is because the more time we spend on WatXM, the more time we must wait for an x-men series that will treat the whole cast well. A wolverine solo series however would not get in the way... kind of like how we have iron man armor adventures and A:EMH, its not hard to believe we could have both a wolverine solo series and an x-men series at the same time; but marvel would likely not have two x-men series running at the same time... I like wolverine and would not mind a solo series for him... but I also like the rest of the x-men and want to see a good series that gives us the most out of all of them

I agree that there should have been a solo Wolverine series if the media wants to concentrate on Wolverine so much. It wouldn't really get in the way of the other X-Men series because it would be its own show and it would give us a chance to see an X-Men series that is focused on everyone and gives everyone their share of the spotlight.

reflection

07-19-2011, 11:51 PM

Monte

07-20-2011, 12:26 PM

Wolverine was more of a fulcrum for the very broad X-men universe than simply the star of the show. I haven't seen it in a few years, but I personally remember the show for giving us far more X-men characters than X:TAS and Evolution and a broader idea of the X-Men universe than those shows.
WatXM gave us some characters that we have not seen before, but it did not give us more. For instance it gave us the first good Emma Frost and Domino, and it gave us the best nightcrawler and Scarlet witch; however X-tas explored a very large portion of the x-men universe and was thus able to introduce us to far more characters. Furtharmore, while WatXM might have introduced us to more characters than evolution, evolution did a great job of characterizing and developing its cast. even though WatXM gave us a few characters we had not seen before, it barely took the time to characterize and develop the majority of those that appeared. Many character were present but felt like nothing more than glorified cameos...

And while WatXM might have done a good job of illustrating the human/mutant conflict, i would not say it gave us a broader idea of the x-men universe sinse that conflict is only one facet of it. Maybe if it had more time it could have done as much as Xtas, but not as it was.

As for Wolverine as the fulcrum, part of the problem is that he has no business being the fulcrum. X-men is about a TEAM of superheros and thus the whole team itself should be the fulcrum. Each individual member has many stories and is effected by the world around them; as such they all deserve attention... Hell wolverine didn't even make a good leader for the team; frnakly i think Storm would have done a better job

Rabbitearsblog

07-20-2011, 01:41 PM

WatXM gave us some characters that we have not seen before, but it did not give us more. For instance it gave us the first good Emma Frost and Domino, and it gave us the best nightcrawler and Scarlet witch; however X-tas explored a very large portion of the x-men universe and was thus able to introduce us to far more characters. Furtharmore, while WatXM might have introduced us to more characters than evolution, evolution did a great job of characterizing and developing its cast. even though WatXM gave us a few characters we had not seen before, it barely took the time to characterize and develop the majority of those that appeared. Many character were present but felt like nothing more than glorified cameos...

And while WatXM might have done a good job of illustrating the human/mutant conflict, i would not say it gave us a broader idea of the x-men universe sinse that conflict is only one facet of it. Maybe if it had more time it could have done as much as Xtas, but not as it was.

As for Wolverine as the fulcrum, part of the problem is that he has no business being the fulcrum. X-men is about a TEAM of superheros and thus the whole team itself should be the fulcrum. Each individual member has many stories and is effected by the world around them; as such they all deserve attention... Hell wolverine didn't even make a good leader for the team; frnakly i think Storm would have done a better job

I agree that even though WatXM did introduce X-Men characters that weren't introduced before, they still did not give enough attention to them. It would be great if there was an X-Men series that focused on all of the characters and WatXM just basically focused on Wolverine all the time and not giving enough time to expand on the other characters. Also on the Wolverine being leader thing, this is just another example about how Storm is mistreated on the cartoons because every fan knows that Storm can make a great leader, however it's like noone wants to see Storm as the leader, so why not make Wolverine a leader since everyone loves him so much. It just basically another way of putting a very well known character like Storm on the backseat.

reflection

07-21-2011, 03:08 PM

I understand why people don't like the idea of Wolverine as a leader, but the way it was done in WatX made sense within the basics of the plot. He just wasn't an arbitrary leader.

suss2it

07-21-2011, 03:17 PM

I understand why people don't like the idea of Wolverine as a leader, but the way it was done in WatX made sense within the basics of the plot. He just wasn't an arbitrary leader.No it didn't. It only made sense in the first 3 episodes. When Storm came back there was no reason given as to why she shouldn't be the leader.

Silverstar

07-21-2011, 03:32 PM

I understand why people don't like the idea of Wolverine as a leader, but the way it was done in WatX made sense within the basics of the plot. He just wasn't an arbitrary leader.

Respectfully, I have to disagree. It only made sense in the context that Wolverine was the uber-cool mutant that the producers wanted to build the show around, especially considering that W&tXM was originally conceived as a solo series for Wolvie. As soon as Storm came back, she should've assumed command, and then after the team retrieved Jean, Scott should've resumed his role as team leader.

Lockjaw

07-21-2011, 04:39 PM

See thats the thing i think it could have made sense in having Wolverine as the leader but in my opionion it was executed very very poorly in WATXM. My first issue was having Wolverine of all people be the one to reunite the team. The guy who's always leaving and more than anyone else on the team, loves to fly solo is the one they picked to band everyone together. Then they actually protray him to be very natural and responsible leader with very little growing pains. The icing on the cake for me was when Charles delivered the message from the future to tell them that Wolverine must lead them. No explanation why just that Wolverine must lead them.

Personally i would have probably had Cyclops go missing too (which could have made sense with the whole AOA story they had planned for the second season). Then i would have had Storm reunite the team and have a shared leadership with her, Wolverine and eventually Emma. I would have also made Wolverine far more unused to and for atleast the 1st season struggle with his new found role and constantly be at odds with the other two over course of action and his recklessness. Instead of the "I'm the perfect leader and my way is always right" that we got in WATXM.

suss2it

07-21-2011, 10:45 PM

Respectfully, I have to disagree. It only made sense in the context that Wolverine was the uber-cool mutant that the producers wanted to build the show around, especially considering that W&tXM was originally conceived as a solo series for Wolvie. As soon as Storm came back, she should've assumed command, and then after the team retrieved Jean, Scott should've resumed his role as team leader.

I disagree with that last part. Cyclops was never shown as a capable leader and was far too emotionally dependent on Jean.

reflection

07-22-2011, 12:46 PM

It's been awhile since I've seen WatX, but I definitely remember showing Wolverine having growing pains. I think one reason why Wolverine needed to be the leader within that universe was that he was a solo guy and if he wanted to bring the team back together, it had more heft than if Cyclops or Storm was the leader.

The one thing I remember but is fuzzy is that Wolverine needed to be the leader because he was the only one who was still likely alive in the future. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Blackmanba

07-22-2011, 01:47 PM

While I do tend to watch all X men series that I can, My favorite would have to be X Men Evolution. X Men TAS and Wolverine and The X Men were to series that I really enjoyed but I was never able to get the same feeling I got while watching Evolution from these two series.

Wolverine and the X Men was to focused on Wolverine and because of that we never got to look to deep into the personalities of the other X men or what there origin might be. There were also some episodes in that series that could have used the X Men better like the one were Gambit stole the power inhibitor that Forge had created. If Wolverine had bother to wake the rest of the X Men they could have gotten the device back and kept them from using the information to keep mutants in the future powerless.

The only reason I don't have X Men TAS as my favorite series is because I didn't know the X Men as well as I do now. So when I watched the series I enjoyed the action and the story lines but not really knowing the characters all that well hurt the view experience for me.

Now I have to ask if Wolverine for WatX had been more like his Evolution counter part do you think he would have made a better leader?

Monte

07-22-2011, 02:31 PM

I disagree with that last part. Cyclops was never shown as a capable leader and was far too emotionally dependent on Jean.
This is true, one thing WatXM failed to show was that Cyclops was EVER a good leader and had a good relationship with Jean... only reason we think he was because that's how he's portrayed everywhere else

It's been awhile since I've seen WatX, but I definitely remember showing Wolverine having growing pains. I think one reason why Wolverine needed to be the leader within that universe was that he was a solo guy and if he wanted to bring the team back together, it had more heft than if Cyclops or Storm was the leader.

Actually wolverine being a loner only calls attention why it was a bad idea for xavier to name him the leader; afterall if he was not a team player before then is it really right to make him team leader? And while a loner leading can yeild some good development the same can be said for Storm and Cyclops. Storm, while she has all the qualities of a good leader would be an untested leader and would still need to adapt to the responsibility; not to mention storm would have brought some diplomacy to the team. And Cyclops would have to learn to get over his grief so that he can focus on working towards the greater good.

And one thing that bugged me about wolverine's growing pains is that i don't really feel like he learned from them. For instance, he kept going out on his personal missions when he should have learned that he can't do that anymore as he needs to stand by the team... Not to mention that going on on his personal vendetta as the team leader sets a terrible example for the rest of the team

The one thing I remember but is fuzzy is that Wolverine needed to be the leader because he was the only one who was still likely alive in the future. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong about that.
no. While Wolverine did manage to survive, xavier did not find that out till the end of the season. He originally thought wolverine was dead like the rest of the x-men

Now I have to ask if Wolverine for WatX had been more like his Evolution counter part do you think he would have made a better leader?
eh not sure... on the one hand the wolverine in evolution did come off as something of a decent teacher as he did have a way with the kids. But then there are parts like when the humans first learned of mutants; Wolverine wanted to fight the military that was hunting them while Cyclops and the others realized that fighting the military would be wrong and relied on Storm and beast's diplomacy.

All in all i feel like wolverine works well as a field leader, like you give him a mission and a team he can get the job done, but i don't he works well as an overall leader since there is a lot to the job

Rabbitearsblog

07-23-2011, 11:02 PM

Actually wolverine being a loner only calls attention why it was a bad idea for xavier to name him the leader; afterall if he was not a team player before then is it really right to make him team leader? And while a loner leading can yeild some good development the same can be said for Storm and Cyclops. Storm, while she has all the qualities of a good leader would be an untested leader and would still need to adapt to the responsibility; not to mention storm would have brought some diplomacy to the team. And Cyclops would have to learn to get over his grief so that he can focus on working towards the greater good.

All in all i feel like wolverine works well as a field leader, like you give him a mission and a team he can get the job done, but i don't he works well as an overall leader since there is a lot to the job

I agree that it was a bit awkward that Wolverine was suddenly put as a leader instead of Cyclops or Storm. I think that Cyclops and Storm were more capable of being a leader than Wolverine ever was. I'm not saying that Wolverine can never be a leader, but it would have been more realistic if Wolverine was struggling with the position of being a leader to the team since he was so used to being alone and doing things his way that working with the others would be extremely difficult for him, especially if he has to be the leader. Wolverine is loyal to everyone though and that might be an aspect of his character that might make him a good leader, but overall, he is more of the muscle of the group.

Bleak5170

07-28-2011, 12:42 PM

The 90's x-men was a good series that did well to give a very wide variety of stories and covered a huge piece of the mythos. The only place it lacked was in animation and character. Something just seemed off about the characters, something unnatural that just made it a bit difficult to connect with them. Maybe i just got the feeling that they felt too much like heroes and not enough like humans. Still all in all the series comes out as the best of marvel's 90's series and a really good series from out of the 90's in general

WatXM was also a good series that had some real strong writing and animation behind it. The writing was strong enough that it could have easily been the best of the X-men series. However the series suffered one HUGE flaw; it forgot that the "X-men" is about a TEAM of superheroes and not just one of them. I like wolverine and I got nothing against him, but when you give HIGH priority focus to ONE character in a cast of a dozen people, those other cast members are bound to suffer. If the show wasn't so busy making love to wolverine the rest of the cast could have gotten the same love that Nightcrawler got... when i watch an X-men series, i expect it to be about the X-men

X-men Evolution, had good stories and good characters. I was really able to grow fond to much of the cast and enjoyed it all the way through. The only downside of the series was that I felt the high school setting got old after a while. Frankly would have preferred if the series could have moved on from that phase and work its way to some epic story lines.

All in all, i give it to Evolution. The story lines varied from decent to good, but what i like the most is that out of all three of the series, i think evolution handled the characters the best. I mean sure the 90's series might let remember an epic storyline, but what i prefer to remember is what the characters were thinking and feeling; that's what really moves me and sticks and that's where I think evolution stands above the others

Great post. You saved me a lot of typing because I was going to say almost exactly the same thing, lol.

X-men The Animated Series - I know it's held in high regard but I'm re-watching the entire series now and it hasn't aged well. Was never a fan of that roster either - no Angel, Iceman, Colossus, or Nightcrawler? Boooooooooo!

Evolution - I avoided this for so long because I thought the X-men in a high school setting would be lame. Boy was I ever wrong! Best character development of any X-men cartoon - even for the villains who are often not developed nearly enough in Saturday morning cartoons.

WOTM - to this day I'm still devastated that Marvel pulled the plug after having a falling out with the studio doing the animation. Despite the emphasis on Wolverine I thought this was really well done.

You'd think an old X-men fanboy like me would favour the 1992 series but it's actually my least favourite. I am surprising even myself by giving the nod to Evolution.

Rabbitearsblog

07-30-2011, 02:46 PM

Evolution - I avoided this for so long because I thought the X-men in a high school setting would be lame. Boy was I ever wrong! Best character development of any X-men cartoon - even for the villains who are often not developed nearly enough in Saturday morning cartoons.

You'd think an old X-men fanboy like me would favour the 1992 series but it's actually my least favourite. I am surprising even myself by giving the nod to Evolution.

I agree that Evolution had the best character development out of all the X-Men series and I wish that the other X-Men cartoons were like that.

Kumori MC

08-09-2011, 01:39 PM

Without a shade of a doubt, X-men The Animated Series.

WatX came so very close to reaching true stardom, had it not been criminally cancelled before season two.

I disliked X men Evo out of numerous reasons, but I agree that it had the much needed character development most action cartoons lack.

[also, call me crazy, but I liked X-23 and her introduction]

The Chieftain

08-10-2011, 12:42 AM

The original X Men was great considering it was the only time we got Gambit as a hero, but it did seem pretty cheesy (It was the 90s though, so I can't blame it).

W&tX-Men had a deep storyline but Rogue said it best " You can't follow a leader who's never there".

X-Men Evolution had the best character development, not to mention Wolverine's orange and brown costume. ;D

Seriously, no one has seen Pryde of the Xmen?

What all these have in common is NOT ENOUGH COLOSSUS!

But I have to give props to Evoution

suss2it

08-10-2011, 02:03 AM

The original X Men was great considering it was the only time we got Gambit as a hero, but it did seem pretty cheesy (It was the 90s though, so I can't blame it).I think Gambit works best as a morally ambiguous awesome thief for hire.

X-Men Evolution had the best character development, not to mention Wolverine's orange and brown costume. ;DIt was orange and black. I was a huge fan of it though, and when I read the comics and saw he was wearing that yellow suit of his, I was really disappointed.

thedanmachine

08-10-2011, 10:16 AM

Evolution all the way. While it did stumble a few times, I liked it most because it felt like it was actually growing. Of course X-men TAS and WATX had decent plot lines, but both series, as a whole, never felt like they were changing. I liked watching characters, for lack of a better term, "evolve."

The Dark Lord

02-21-2012, 08:21 PM

I've only seen X-Men: Evolution and Wolverine and the X-Men, and even though I grew up with X-Men: Evolution as a kid, I prefer Wolverine and the X-Men.

TheMadSlasher

02-22-2012, 09:56 AM

My opinion on this subject is well-known but I'll state it again.

XTAS.

Gambit, Wolverine and Iceman got characterizations I actually liked.

Evo had pros... Cyclops was actually sort-of-likeable-to-varying-degrees. Jean had a spine, too. But it had lots of negatives, principally the fact it was all about high school and I have an absolute allergy to high schools in fiction being portrayed as anything other than a gulag. XTAS, thankfully, minimized the high school element (and when they did focus on it, for instance in "Cold Comfort," it was depicted negatively).

WATXM was just The Wolvie Show and completely took away everything I liked about Wolverine.

Speedy

03-12-2012, 06:19 AM

Medinnus

03-12-2012, 12:03 PM

I recently watched evolution with captain america guest starring and they have him dying from the super soldier serrum and in a freezer waiting for a cure

Just think of the freezer burn!

Seriously, thats enough to turn you off of it? I was just thrillled that Winghead had an appearance, even if the plot left much to be desired (IIRC).

I'd have to go with X-Men: TAS myself, though; it covered a lot of the ground of the comic, and it did it reasonably well and faithfully (not slavishly so). I can understand the appeal of XMen: Emo to the younger crowd, even as it changed many of the characters away from their essential characterization, and I an quite fond of W&tXM, even though I am truly sick of time-travel plots with paradoxes big enough to drive a DeLorean through. :narf:

Seriously, no one has seen Pryde of the Xmen?

Seen it, dismissed it; Dazzler makes me vomit.

nightrider321

03-12-2012, 02:55 PM

I'm pretty much the only person who has watched only TAS here:(. I'm planning to watch Evo but should I skip ahead to season 2 or does it have too much continuity from season 1 for me to skip over?

spartanx54

03-12-2012, 07:00 PM

I watched like two episodes of X-Men Evolution, they were pretty good. Since I have Netflix, I can watch TAS and Wolverine and The X Men, but I'm not really intrested in those series, but I might try the former.

JTMarsh

03-15-2012, 05:34 PM

I liked the X-men evolution because it was just something different to normal x-men shows and comics. It was the first marvel series I saw fully. In this X-men rouge look way better. Just saying. Plus cyclops was being annoying in wolverine and the X-men. I hate him in general, but he was less annoying in evolution.
In the Italicized - his so called arc did end up being a parody of itself. You half expect him to yell "Go away! I'm trying to wallow in self pity!"

I just hope the next X-toon amounts to more than just Wolverine propaganda.

Kumori MC

03-15-2012, 06:56 PM

I've watched, re-watched and spoke of all four [or was that five, counting the '89 pilot?] series, and have thus decided to give a somewhat large-ish bundle of cents in the form of another post in this thread, a build up on the previous one to be exact.

X-Men Evolution is actually the series I watched first, and Ultimate X-men the comic I read first (Croatian edition). Later on, a local TV station of ours picked up the 90s TAS, and about half a year later our selection of channels on cable got extended from 32 to 60something, thus including Cartoon Network and Jetix. Luckily, Jetix still aired the 90s Marvel animated cartoons. Oh joy!

After that, I've come across both the 89 pilot and WatXM. And have watched them all. Oh, as well as Evo and TAS. And recently, as recent as a year and a half ago, the X-Men Anime as well. [I don't count Astonishing X-Men: The Motion Comic as a series, by the way]

My thoughts?

The Pilot: Okay, the intro music was what put me off, to be honest. That and Aussie Wolvie, too. The rest of it went a bit faster than a cartoon pilot should be. No opinion on it, folks.

TAS: Still my favorite series. The animation sucked more often than not, some of the dialogue was poor and an earbleeder, some of the characters I could have done without. But man oh man, did it cover everything! You have the cast that nearly everyone knew and somewhat loved, you have the villains and story arcs that spawned season-wide, you have adult issues addressed like racism and religion, and you even have character deaths. The nineties Saturday mornings were known for not having any of this so that the "frail, fragile youth doesn't get corrupted, forcing their pretty little heads into thinking of such bad, bad things." It'd done for Marvel what Batman TAS did for DC, what Gargoyles did for animation in general. For that, I can't adore it enough.

And who can forget the subtle Deadpool cameos? Really?!

Evo: I've rewatched it quite a bit, both on TV and on my PC. Frankly, the more I watched it, the more it lost its charm. I do agree that it had tremendous character development/character building, call it whatever you want. The villains were so likable that most kids in my class chanted the themesong of Toad. True story. :D Oh, and whenever we played, I was Nightcrawler. Nyeh-heh-heh... Anyway, back on topic, I don't feel the same way about Evo as I did back in 2003/2004, so I can safely place this series in the third place along with the Anime. I'm not calling it a bad series, just not my cup of tea.

WatXM: Okay, the Wolviefest was a bore, I agree. Sadly, my colleague the Ultimate Logan Fanboy deems this as the pinnacle of Marvel animation. But, take away the Wolverine factor for a bit and you get a solid basis for a modern, neoclassical X-Men series that the fans deserve: the best Scott Summers one can get [and I dislike the guy; he works as a broken man with little ambition], the best Angel one can get [the build-up to Archangel was beautifully orchestrated], the VERY BEST Nightcrawler this side of TAS [and his romance with Wanda was a pleasant surprise to this previous reenacter of Herr Wagner, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more :P ], a walking Xavier, a badass Bishop, a Marrow we can love, a Domino who deserved her own mini-series, a Gambit who, despite his voice, showed some of his skills rather well, a Polaris I fell in love with due to her insanity, a Weapon X program with slight kinks and changes [and a planned Deadpool reappearance on the small screen which will sadly never come to pass], an X-23 return with a slick new design, a well-executed affair known as the Lensher family, and many, many more. There were flaws, of course [Storm just can't catch a break, can she?], and the designs really, really took some getting used to [still less than TSSM and even Avengers, though], but in the end the result was stunning. Oh, and I almost forgot - Emma Frost was also among the absolute favorites, deserving her own show in the form of a three-part OVA or something. But alas, lack of money equals lack of WatXM season two and any further Apocalypse appearances. A second place for this one.

Anime: Ugh, the story was dreadful, utterly dreadful. But the action sequences more than make up for it. Finally, we see blood! Whether it's Wolvie carving up U-men brutes, or Cyke murdering raging mutant freaks and rejects, or any other major battle, really. And Storm actually does something for a change, and [again!] is somehow reduced to a damsel in distress. Also, Hisako was a lot less annoying than Jubilee and Kitty Pride put together. And there were even a few glorified cameos. [Among which, ladies and gentlemen, a not-so-subtle one by our very own Merc with a Mouth] It even looked well visually, the show, at certain points. But in the end, it was a "get more money quick" scheme and very little beyond it. Third place along side Evo.

What do I expect from a future X-men series? All of the good of the above and none of the bad of the same above. :)

More to come soon.

suss2it

03-16-2012, 03:11 AM

WatXM: Okay, the Wolviefest was a bore, I agree. Sadly, my colleague the Ultimate Logan Fanboy deems this as the pinnacle of Marvel animation. But, take away the Wolverine factor for a bit and you get a solid basis for a modern, neoclassical X-Men series that the fans deserve: the best Scott Summers one can get [and I dislike the guy; he works as a broken man with little ambition], the best Angel one can get [the build-up to Archangel was beautifully orchestrated], the VERY BEST Nightcrawler this side of TAS [and his romance with Wanda was a pleasant surprise to this previous reenacter of Herr Wagner, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more :P ], a walking Xavier, a badass Bishop, a Marrow we can love, a Domino who deserved her own mini-series, a Gambit who, despite his voice, showed some of his skills rather well, a Polaris I fell in love with due to her insanity, a Weapon X program with slight kinks and changes [and a planned Deadpool reappearance on the small screen which will sadly never come to pass], an X-23 return with a slick new design, a well-executed affair known as the Lensher family, and many, many more. There were flaws, of course [Storm just can't catch a break, can she?], and the designs really, really took some getting used to [still less than TSSM and even Avengers, though], but in the end the result was stunning. Oh, and I almost forgot - Emma Frost was also among the absolute favorites, deserving her own show in the form of a three-part OVA or something. But alas, lack of money equals lack of WatXM season two and any further Apocalypse appearances. A second place for this one.No way was WatXM the best Scott Summers that fans can get. He was pretty much an emo loser in WatXM, and was even shown as such prior to losing Jean. Fans got a much better Scott in both Evolution, the Anime and most likely the 90s toon as well.

Anime: Ugh, the story was dreadful, utterly dreadful. But the action sequences more than make up for it. Finally, we see blood! Whether it's Wolvie carving up U-men brutes, or Cyke murdering raging mutant freaks and rejects, or any other major battle, really. And Storm actually does something for a change, and [again!] is somehow reduced to a damsel in distress. Also, Hisako was a lot less annoying than Jubilee and Kitty Pride put together. And there were even a few glorified cameos. [Among which, ladies and gentlemen, a not-so-subtle one by our very own Merc with a Mouth] It even looked well visually, the show, at certain points. But in the end, it was a "get more money quick" scheme and very little beyond it. Third place along side Evo.I was really liking the Anime until about midway through, were the story just got really boring and they spent the rest of the episodes in that one lady's lab. But yeah, it's easily the best X-Men cartoon, visually and action wise.

Kumori MC

03-16-2012, 04:40 AM

No way was WatXM the best Scott Summers that fans can get. He was pretty much an emo loser in WatXM, and was even shown as such prior to losing Jean. Fans got a much better Scott in both Evolution, the Anime and most likely the 90s toon as well.

This is what one calls a personal opinion. You have one, I have one, the rest of the forum has one, the rest of the world has one.

See, I didn't really enjoy the Evo Summers. I found him to be dull, over-achieving, and they overly emphasized his "coolness" and leadership skills. I'll agree that some of his solo episodes were the highlights of the series itself, but that alone was not enough to have me saying he's the best animated Cyclops ever. Regarding the anime version, he was a nice mix of emotionally wrecked Cyke and the team leader that everyone is used to, but considering the anime as a whole, he didn't quite shine. Nor did anyone else, for that matter. TAS Cyclops was nigh-non-existent, even when the episode, the season even, would relate to him.

The reason why I chose WatXM Cyke as a fave is because I like the whole "men in power crushed" thing. This was his crisis, he had to deal with it and he dealt with it poorly. That's quality stuff. How it was executed is a rather different story altogether, agreed, but the premise went well and it stuck with me to the end of the series.

Also, Dot. :dot:

suss2it

03-16-2012, 03:57 PM

The reason why I chose WatXM Cyke as a fave is because I like the whole "men in power crushed" thing. This was his crisis, he had to deal with it and he dealt with it poorly. That's quality stuff. How it was executed is a rather different story altogether, agreed, but the premise went well and it stuck with me to the end of the series.

I agree that it was a good premise to do a role-reversal with Wolverine and Cyclops, but execution is the most crucial part, and they flopped on that end pretty hard. Cyclops was never shown to be a man in power in the first place for the whole "men in power crushed" scenario. In flashbacks he was either an insecure boyfriend who attacked someone for hitting on his girlfriend or he was an insecure teenager who couldn't do anything right, and needed Jean around to make him useful. We never ever saw him in a grace to fall from, so when he did have his apparent meltdown, it just felt hollow.

JTMarsh

03-16-2012, 06:50 PM

I think suss2it said it best.

It seems to me that the only fans who actually like W&TXM's version of Cyclops are 1) fans who dislike Cyclops to begin with so they enjoy watching him get emasculated on purpose and 2) fans of voice actor Nolan North (even though his Cyclops pales in comparison to his Deadpool).

Kumori MC

03-16-2012, 07:26 PM

I agree that it was a good premise to do a role-reversal with Wolverine and Cyclops, but execution is the most crucial part, and they flopped on that end pretty hard. Cyclops was never shown to be a man in power in the first place for the whole "men in power crushed" scenario. In flashbacks he was either an insecure boyfriend who attacked someone for hitting on his girlfriend or he was an insecure teenager who couldn't do anything right, and needed Jean around to make him useful. We never ever saw him in a grace to fall from, so when he did have his apparent meltdown, it just felt hollow.

Need I remind you that we were only given fragments of their past? Okay, the initial team mission proved that he was young and incapable to lead, agreed. However, the past prior to, and including the arrival of, Wolvie was shown in bits and pieces. I'm pretty sure this was to be addressed better in season two had it been made.

An argument, you say? They've surely encountered both Sinister and Magneto at least several times before Wolvie's inauguration to the X-team. Considering, however, that the show's focus was Logan and his claws, little time was given to delve into Cyke's growth into the leader of the team.

But this doesn't change the fact that we were not provided the, as you put it, "grace for him to fall from," hence why fans dislike this particular Summers. I'm someone who looks past that; I saw potential in WatXM Cyclops, and sadly was robbed of it the moment they said no season two will be made.

JTMarsh

03-17-2012, 12:17 AM

Need I remind you that we were only given fragments of their past? Okay, the initial team mission proved that he was young and incapable to lead, agreed. However, the past prior to, and including the arrival of, Wolvie was shown in bits and pieces. I'm pretty sure this was to be addressed better in season two had it been made.

Nah, they would have been too focused on random cameos and promoting the idea of leadership being Wolverine's sacred and holy birthright to bother with that.

An argument, you say? They've surely encountered both Sinister and Magneto at least several times before Wolvie's inauguration to the X-team. Considering, however, that the show's focus was Logan and his claws, little time was given to delve into Cyke's growth into the leader of the team.

But this doesn't change the fact that we were not provided the, as you put it, "grace for him to fall from," hence why fans dislike this particular Summers. I'm someone who looks past that; I saw potential in WatXM Cyclops, and sadly was robbed of it the moment they said no season two will be made.
It's hard to see the potential in a character when that character had a huge gap in his characterization. I have a hard time believing this would have changed or improved given the show's obvious biases.