Designs for "Wolverine and the X-Men" Season Two Posted!

[Spider-Man]

The "Save Wolverine and the X-Men" Facebook group posted up exclusive images of some character designs for the second season and they are incredible! Check them out:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.223975574297533.71766.133410150020743

http://www.facebook.com/savexmen

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246868_224202550941502_133410150020743_865963_7349163_n.jpg

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/260263_224202324274858_133410150020743_865953_6173983_n.jpg

[BigEclipse]

These concepts put such a bad taste in my mouth and a knot in my stomach. It brings to mind the uncompleted Robotech II: The Sentinels and what could have been. Now I have two to lament on...

[suss2it]

Those all look pretty good. I have a feeling season 2 would've topped season 1, as I find is usually the case with TV shows. Such a shame it was killed before it could reach it's prime.

[Rick Jones]

It's kind of cool that they would have gone back to the Jim Lee look for Jean, as they did for Rogue. It's probably not as iconic of a look for her as the Phoenix or Marvel Girl outfits but I think it would have worked better. I'll always have a bit of a soft spot for the early 90s X-Men. Just to be a little on the greedy side, I do hope that more of the proposed Season 2 designs leak (Cyclops, Deadpool, Magik, for instance).

[Medinnus]

I would have liked to see more than (more or less) Jean and Logan... )

[Scirel]

Is it bad that I can't help but see that wolverine as looking more of a parody of wolverine?

[trance2009]

Is this the Peter Chung version of X-Men? Jean is like all legs.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

I've had my problems with the show, but I did like it and I really wish they had done a second season, especially since there was so much planned already.

Just like with the first season design, I really like the look of Jean.

[JTMarsh]

Nice find, but Jean looks kinda... stoned in that picture.

[suss2it]

Nice find, but Jean looks kinda... stoned in that picture.

lol, Didn't notice it at first, but you're right.

[Barbossa]

Cool pics
A very mature ,brave and serious series, did not feel like a kids show at all.It may be a while before we get a mature Marvel series like this again
Still surprised it was a ratings hit on Nicktoons of all places

[ShadowStar]

Jean's elongated legs look weird to me. That aside, it's a good design.

I like the design for AOA Sunfire. Very true to the comics.

[suss2it]

Cool pics
A very mature ,brave and serious series, did not feel like a kids show at all.It may be a while before we get a mature Marvel series like this again
Still surprised it was a ratings hit on Nicktoons of all places

The way Wolverine didn't actually use his claws but kept unsheathing them and the watered down fight scenes in "Wolverine vs. The Hulk", especially when compared to "Hulk vs. Wolverine" are things that very much made it feel like a kids' show.

[Light Lucario]

I really don't like Wolverine's design at all. I'd imagine that it's from the future where Professor X is and he would have some scars and all, but his facial expression and pose makes the whole design feel more like a different character that's just trying to look like Wolverine, instead of the actual character. Despite being extremely tall with those legs, I kind of liked Jean's design. It might be just the color scheme of the costume, but I thought it worked. I was disappointed that they only had designs for Wolverine and Jean. I was kind of hoping that they'd include all of the main X-Men designs.

I honestly do miss this show. While it had its share of problems, the action was pretty good and the story was engaging enough for me to want to check it out. It's such a shame that it was canceled, especially when they had so much planned for a second season. I'd love it if they could do a second season to bring more closure, or maybe a DTV movie or two if another season couldn't work, but at this point, I'm not sure what an online Facebook page can do. Still, it was nice that they could share some of the designs from the planned second season.

[Shredhead]

As much as I love seeing this stuff it just kills me when i do look at it. I loved this show and thought it was probably the best show marvel ever had or at least had a chance to become the best. Jean with the longer hair looks far better and the action shots in Black and white looked really good. I agree with with everyone they could have done better with AOA Wolverine the face just looks really wrong.

[Geodude]

The way Wolverine didn't actually use his claws but kept unsheathing them
He did exactly the same thing in the 90s X-Men series, and I haven't seen anyone complain about that.

[suss2it]

He did exactly the same thing in the 90s X-Men series, and I haven't seen anyone complain about that.
I've never watched that show, but if someone said the 90s show didn't feel like a kids' show and felt very adult I'd bring the same point up as well.

[JTMarsh]

Cool pics
A very mature ,brave and serious series, did not feel like a kids show at all.It may be a while before we get a mature Marvel series like this again
Still surprised it was a ratings hit on Nicktoons of all places
It's kind of hard to take a show seriously when it has an episode where all the X-Men get punked by ninjas.

[Barbossa]

Even if they got punked by ninjas in every episode the show is still more mature and adult than most Marvel shows

The ninja stuff is not a big deal to most people ,you seem to be the only one bringing it up every time,but its cool at least Rogue and Logan kicked some Ninja butt later on

[TheVileOne]

Wow, it is really just too bad we didn't get another season. It would've had Havoc, Colossus coming back to the X-Men, Magick, and also Deadpool. Deadpool was designed for season 2 :( .

[suss2it]

Even if they got punked by ninjas in every episode the show is still more mature and adult than most Marvel shows

The ninja stuff is not a big deal to most people ,you seem to be the only one bringing it up every time,but its cool at least Rogue and Logan kicked some Ninja butt later onI also think ninjas punking the entire X-Men team, including Nightcrawler who can teleport, Shadowcat, who phase through anything and Emma Frost who can read minds just to make Wolverine look good was stupid, contrived and lame. Although I will admit Rogue did have her moments in that episode.

You keep saying that WatXM is so mature, but what exactly makes it more mature than other Marvel shows? And even if it's more mature by your standards, does that alone make it a superior show to the rest?

I personally rate Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, X-Men: Evolution, Iron Man: Armored Adventures and Spectacular Spider-Man as superior Marvel cartoons. Those 4 shows do (and did) a lot better job at showcasing the entire cast. Even SSM and AA which were solo shows. WatXM propped up one character (guess who) at the expense of all the other ones, which I think led to some poor storytelling.

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy the show, since I did, I just wish they focused less on Wolverine and more on the other characters that they had such as Storm who was basically a background prop, and Shadowcat, who I think was the most fun character on the show.

[Mistah K88]

I know there was a Deadpool artwork floating out there somewhere... I do kind of like Jean having long hair. I suppose with Emma out of the way they could have Jean Grey with longer hair.



Well the unused plans were revealed now that the show is dead. I'm sure by now everyone has seen them but here's a just in case.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...49072&comments (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=208529275849072&comments)


LUCAS: Towards the end of season one, Mr. Sinister took the DNA samples from Scott and Jean. Would we have seen Cable and/or X-Man in season two? What kind of role would he have had in the show?

JOSH: The goal with Season 2 was to create our version of a season-long Age of Apocalypse story, much in the same way as Season 1 was inspired by “Days of Future Past.” Cable / X-Man were obviously very connected to that storyline and that Age of Apocalypse world, so your guess is correct. We had some plans for Cable (and even a design) although we were still hammering out his exact role in the show.


LUCAS: How was Emma Frost's return going to happen?

JOSH: Wait, wait, wait, who said Emma was coming back? :-)

Man, this was actually one of the coolest ideas that we had during development… okay I guess I’ll give you this one. HUGE SPOILER AHEAD that doesn’t matter anymore.

The thought was that just as Emma shattered and released the Phoenix Force into the aether, she was able to reach out and implant her consciousness on Jean. Through the beginning of the second season episodes, we were seeding some very subtle hints about this—showing a few of Emma’s mannerisms, memories, and knowledge seeping out into Jean’s thoughts and actions. Ultimately we planned to show Jean realizing what had happened, but deciding to keep Emma repressed—imprisoned essentially—in her mind, until some critical moment when Jean would finally realize the need for Emma and help to revive her. We were also planning to homage the memorable scene from the comics of Beast rebuilding Emma’s shattered diamond form.



LUCAS: Would we ever see Professor X come out of the coma in the present day?

JOSH: Yes. This was planned for the beginning of the Season 2 finale. With some…. complications.


LUCAS: How would the show's Age of Apocalypse differ from the iconic comic storyline?

JOSH: The comics treated AoA as an alternate present should Charles Xavier have been killed before forming the X-Men, rather than as a possible alternate future. Part of our task in adapting the story was figuring out which elements to pull into our present day storyline and how we were building towards this dark future. Greg, Boyd and I also did a lot of work fleshing out the details of that Age of Apocalypse future, including (amongst many other things) how and where the Infinites were created and how Apocalypse was using them to exercise an iron fist over the world.


LUCAS: Besides Havok, Deadpool, and Magik, which were all announced to premiere in season two, were there any other new characters we would've seen in season two?

JOSH: To quote Emma, “Yes. Many.” I hesitate to dive into all the other characters that would have appeared, because I don’t think it’ll do anything other than make folks even angrier and more depressed that season 2 isn’t happening. But I’ll give you a few, because I’m cool like that.

Unus the Untouchable
Nemesis (aka Holocaust)
Sunfire


LUCAS: Also, would we have seen Cyclops start a relationship with Emma? If so, how would Jean take it?
JOSH: This was actually still a bit up in the air when we closed down shop. Part of the plan for Cyclops’s arc in the present day was to start to return him to the way that he used to be—a hero and a born leader—now that Jean is safely back on the team. We were even going to introduce a new costume for him, putting him back in the blue and yellow as he shed the black and grey of his mourning. We’d designed that costume as well as a Yellow and Blue look for Jean, both inspired by the Jim Lee era of X-Men comics, some of my favorite costumes for them. The Jean one in particular was one of my favorites that we’d ever done.


But part of Cyclops was of course going to be pining for Emma, and Jean (being a psychic and, you know, a somewhat observant gal) would certainly pick up on this. And it would likely play into the timing and manner of Emma’s return.


I did like the show, but it did indeed take the other X-Men fall in order to have Wolverine rise...specifically Cyclops...he was NEVER shown as a competant leader, so I was wondering were they were to take him in the show.

[Medinnus]

I hadnt seen that before - thanks for reposting it. And Josh Fine rocks pretty hard.

[W.C.Reaf]

OK I know the time travel aspects of this show were screwy anyway (especially the season final) but this:


LUCAS: Would we ever see Professor X come out of the coma in the present day?

JOSH: Yes. This was planned for the beginning of the Season 2 finale. With some…. complications.

Would just cancel out the entire show into a time paradox. Yeah it's just an idea and we have no way of knowing how it would be executed or what those "complications" would be. It's still a big WTH moment for the time travel fan in me.

[ShadowStar]

LUCAS: Would we ever see Professor X come out of the coma in the present day?

JOSH: Yes. This was planned for the beginning of the Season 2 finale. With some…. complications.

Onslaught.

It's also a shame that we've missed out on seeing Holocaust in animation. Someday, perhaps...

[Monte]

I personally rate Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, X-Men: Evolution, Iron Man: Armored Adventures and Spectacular Spider-Man as superior Marvel cartoons. Those 4 shows do (and did) a lot better job at showcasing the entire cast. Even SSM and AA which were solo shows. WatXM propped up one character (guess who) at the expense of all the other ones, which I think led to some poor storytelling.

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy the show, since I did, I just wish they focused less on Wolverine and more on the other characters that they had such as Storm who was basically a background prop, and Shadowcat, who I think was the most fun character on the show.

This has always been my major issue with the show. I Enjoyed the show, but for this reason alone I do not want to see it return. Because the more time marvel spends on WatXM, the longer we have to wait for a REAL x-men show; a show that places its focus on the ENTIRE TEAM, sharing the spotlight evenly amongst the team members...


I did like the show, but it did indeed take the other X-Men fall in order to have Wolverine rise...specifically Cyclops...he was NEVER shown as a competant leader, so I was wondering were they were to take him in the show.
Ya it always irritated me that the show did not show us cyclops BEFORE he lost Jean. Honestly, sympathizing for a character is much easier when you actually SEE how far they fell. This is in regards to leadership, his character and his relationship with Jean... Honestly even in the flashback episode we got for cyclops I never got the idea that he was a strong leader and no more than a VERY tiny idea that he and jean had a strong and healthy relationship...

[TheVileOne]

Josh Fine is right. That did make me angrier and more depressed we aren't getting a second season.

[Light Lucario]

I like the idea of Emma Frost being in Jean's subconscious. That sounds like it would have been a nice way to keep her in the show, at some form, and allow for her to be revived at some point. Plus, it would have given more insight into Jean's character, given that another person is inside her mind now, as well as see how Emma deals with being confined inside Jean's subconscious. It definitely would have had a significant impact on Scott and Jean's relationship. Having Professor X wake up in present day also sounds kind of cool, but I agree it just would have caused so much confusion about the time traveling, even more so than there already was with just the first season. It's still a shame that this series couldn't have a second season since they had some really great ideas planned out and they were foreshadowing a huge event with this new future, but it just was too hard financially to do so. It's quite a shame.

[suss2it]

This has always been my major issue with the show. I Enjoyed the show, but for this reason alone I do not want to see it return. Because the more time marvel spends on WatXM, the longer we have to wait for a REAL x-men show; a show that places its focus on the ENTIRE TEAM, sharing the spotlight evenly amongst the team members... Hopefully the Anime'll be better at character distribution.



Ya it always irritated me that the show did not show us cyclops BEFORE he lost Jean. Honestly, sympathizing for a character is much easier when you actually SEE how far they fell. This is in regards to leadership, his character and his relationship with Jean... Honestly even in the flashback episode we got for cyclops I never got the idea that he was a strong leader and no more than a VERY tiny idea that he and jean had a strong and healthy relationship...The flashbacks did nothing for Cyclops. He was still a loser. He was the one picking fights with Wolverine (who was the better man and wouldn't fight back), being scolded at by Jean for said behavior, and even further back when he was teen he was shown to basically be an emotional pansy, who couldn't do anything right. For all that I'm conflicted on season 2 Cyclops could've been like. They could either have redeemed him and and made him an awesome strategist and leader, or they could've continue to give him the shaft in order to make Wolverine look good.

[Eivion]

Hopefully the Anime'll be better at character distribution.
Its not really. Its mostly about Cyclops, Emma, and Armor and is less interesting than Wolverine and the X-men though still decent.

[TheVileOne]

As far as Cyclops acting like a loser, the comics did it to him first :p .

Yeah, guy gets married and has a kid and dumps his wife after he finds his believed dead girlfriend is really alive. Joins a team with her and neglects to tell Jean Grey he married and had a baby with someone. Nothing deadbeat dad or loser-ish about that :D .

[NBM05]

The way Wolverine didn't actually use his claws but kept unsheathing them and the watered down fight scenes in "Wolverine vs. The Hulk", especially when compared to "Hulk vs. Wolverine" are things that very much made it feel like a kids' show.

Agreed. I enjoyed the show, but the action was toned down and kid friendly--and often not as well choreographed as TSSM or most of the DCUA shows.

I absolutely would have watched a second season had one been made, so I'm not saying the show wasn't good, but I did see it as more "all ages" then adult in nature. I did like the ongoing story lines and character building, and the action wasn't bad, it just could have been better/more intense.

Definitely deserved a second season. Hopefully we get a replacement for it sometime.

[TheVileOne]

How is that any different from the 1990's series or pretty much Wolverine in any other animation before Hulk vs.?

Also let's not forget the Ninja Turtles carrying around deadly bladed weapons and never slashing anyone. I remember talking with Chris Yost about this, and he said Leonardo and Wolverine have blades and Yost basically said in their shows, "They can rip to you shreds but they just don't." I think Yost meant that the threat of them doing it was there, but Wolverine and Leonard (in the new TMNT) series chose not to rip people to shreds instead. Take it or leave it I suppose.

[suss2it]

Its not really. Its mostly about Cyclops, Emma, and Armor and is less interesting than Wolverine and the X-men though still decent.I'm actually okay with that. That's better than just Wolverine. Don't know who Armor is, so I'm looking forward to finding out.

As far as Cyclops acting like a loser, the comics did it to him first :p .

Yeah, guy gets married and has a kid and dumps his wife after he finds his believed dead girlfriend is really alive. Joins a team with her and neglects to tell Jean Grey he married and had a baby with someone. Nothing deadbeat dad or loser-ish about that :D .While that may be the case, the Cyclops I'm familiar with is the more than capable leader from X-Men: Evolution, Astonishing X-Men (Joss Whedon's run, haven't read any other AXM) and the first 12 issues of Ultimate X-Men (haven't read the rest yet). So I don't think that's a valid excuse for WatXM poor portrayal of Cyke.



Definitely deserved a second season. Hopefully we get a replacement for it sometime.We do have the upcoming X-Men anime, so there's that.


How is that any different from the 1990's series or pretty much Wolverine in any other animation before Hulk vs.?That doesn't make it any less annoying.


Also let's not forget the Ninja Turtles carrying around deadly bladed weapons and never slashing anyone. I remember talking with Chris Yost about this, and he said Leonardo and Wolverine have blades and Yost basically said in their shows, "They can rip to you shreds but they just don't." I think Yost meant that the threat of them doing it was there, but Wolverine and Leonard (in the new TMNT) series chose not to rip people to shreds instead. Take it or leave it I suppose.
I don't care about the threat being there, I actually wanna see it. Especially with a guy like Wolverine, who's the type of guy to follow through with those threats. It woudn't have been so bad in WatXM if Wolverine didn't constantly unsheathe his claws at the drop of a hat, only for him to do nothing with them.

[soundmonkey44]

WOW! Those are some nice pics, a shame the show never got a second season.:(

[Monte]

LUCAS: Also, would we have seen Cyclops start a relationship with Emma? If so, how would Jean take it?
JOSH: This was actually still a bit up in the air when we closed down shop. Part of the plan for Cyclops’s arc in the present day was to start to return him to the way that he used to be—a hero and a born leader—now that Jean is safely back on the team. We were even going to introduce a new costume for him, putting him back in the blue and yellow as he shed the black and grey of his mourning. We’d designed that costume as well as a Yellow and Blue look for Jean, both inspired by the Jim Lee era of X-Men comics, some of my favorite costumes for them. The Jean one in particular was one of my favorites that we’d ever done.


But part of Cyclops was of course going to be pining for Emma, and Jean (being a psychic and, you know, a somewhat observant gal) would certainly pick up on this. And it would likely play into the timing and manner of Emma’s return. Y'know, thinking about it, this bit makes me REALLY skeptical of how well cyclops would turn out. I mean sure they say they would let cyclops a hero and born leader, but it feels like they are building him up just to tear him down all over again. I mean, Season 1 basically showed us that cyclops can not even function without jean, and yet, after she has returned and he his regaining his life, its only THEN that he starts to pin for someone else? Ya pining for Emma after going through such an episode with Jean and getting her back probably would not earn him a lot of points... not to mention i can't help but think it would be wolverine of all people who will be the one to confront him about it (once again, make others look bad so wolverine can look good)...

Furtharmore their is the issue of his future with Apocalypse (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/38381/813541-cyclops_super.png). We saw in the future that Cyclops was to eventually become one of Apocalypse men along side sinister. Considering how we would likely see things come to the brink of Apocalypse's victory before they manage to thwart him and avoid a horrible future, I can't help but think this means we would see Cyclops get tempted by the dark side... hence again, being built up just to be broken down... and wolverine will probably play a key role in making him see the light again.


Its not really. Its mostly about Cyclops, Emma, and Armor and is less interesting than Wolverine and the X-men though still decent.Y'know only saw the first few episodes of the anime. And interestingly enough, like WatXM, it starts with scott after he lost Jean and fell to depression... however, even with just the first few episodes, they handle it much better than WatXM did with an entire season. Scott was still angry and angst over the event, but he did not let it consume him. He shows signs that the loss of Jean to influence his character in a POSITIVE way (instead of being consumed by it, it's more like he's learning from it); atleast that's the feeling I got from those first few episodes... Also one thing we get in the very first episode is a flashback where Jean and Scott have a moment together. Sure they are not talking about eachother, but the whole atmosphere of the short scene just screams "These two are in love"... that's something i felt was lacking in WatXM

[Barbossa]

As far as Cyclops acting like a loser, the comics did it to him first :p .

Yeah, guy gets married and has a kid and dumps his wife after he finds his believed dead girlfriend is really alive. Joins a team with her and neglects to tell Jean Grey he married and had a baby with someone. Nothing deadbeat dad or loser-ish about that :D .

Wow so he did that in the comics thats awful,and people think WATXM Cyclops is bad.I can't even take the WATXM Cyclops complaints seriously anymore after what comic book Cyclops did.This show went easy on him

[Ultra8]

It's cool to see more of what they had planned for season 2 but it's also depressing that it'll most likely never be finished.
What I find most ironic is we're getting comic soon with the same title long after the show has been scraped.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

As far as Cyclops acting like a loser, the comics did it to him first :p .

Yeah, guy gets married and has a kid and dumps his wife after he finds his believed dead girlfriend is really alive. Joins a team with her and neglects to tell Jean Grey he married and had a baby with someone. Nothing deadbeat dad or loser-ish about that :D .


Wow, I never knew that! When did this happen? What series? What issues? Who wrote it?

[Medinnus]

Wow, I never knew that! When did this happen? What series? What issues? Who wrote it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyne_Pryor

[Superpan]

Wow, I never knew that! When did this happen? What series? What issues? Who wrote it?
Pretty much all of 80's X-Men. He left them in the early issues of X-Factor, to be more specific.

[ktk]

That was really one of the turning points of when the whole X-Men franchise started getting really soap opera-ish. Of course, that was also when they were still hugely and rapidly growing in popularity, so the decision was made to get the original team back together, so they could add yet another new mutant title.


Back on the subject of the thread, some of those plans for Season 2 really sounded cool. So sad we'll never get to see them.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelyne_Pryor



Pretty much all of 80's X-Men. He left them in the early issues of X-Factor, to be more specific.


Thanks guys. Between the beginning of X--Factor and The Fall of The Mutants is right around when I was first getting into comics and The X-Men, but my reading was inconsistently spotty, so I either never read about any of that or had totally forgotten it. Definitely sounds like one of Claremont's many story threads he likes to throw out there, but never expanded on or just abandoned.

[Medinnus]

Thanks guys. Between the beginning of X--Factor and The Fall of The Mutants is right around when I was first getting into comics and The X-Men, but my reading was inconsistently spotty, so I either never read about any of that or had totally forgotten it. Definitely sounds like one of Claremont's many story threads he likes to throw out there, but never expanded on or just abandoned.

Oh, the whole Maddie Pryor thing was expanded on... it was the lame mega-crossover called "Inferno".

And yeah, Claremont threw a lot of [crap] against the wall to see if any of it would stick. When he couldn't re-create the success of his "Dark Phoenix" saga he just started re-treading his old plots - which he still does to this day, for the most part. Pays the bills, and a man has to eat.

Mod Note: Watch the language.

[JTMarsh]

And Maddie Pryor was one of the dumbest things they ever did in the X-Men comics. Like "Spider-Man: One More Day" dumb.



Y'know, thinking about it, this bit makes me REALLY skeptical of how well cyclops would turn out. I mean sure they say they would let cyclops a hero and born leader, but it feels like they are building him up just to tear him down all over again. I mean, Season 1 basically showed us that cyclops can not even function without jean, and yet, after she has returned and he his regaining his life, its only THEN that he starts to pin for someone else? Ya pining for Emma after going through such an episode with Jean and getting her back probably would not earn him a lot of points... not to mention i can't help but think it would be wolverine of all people who will be the one to confront him about it (once again, make others look bad so wolverine can look good)...

Furtharmore their is the issue of his future with Apocalypse (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/38381/813541-cyclops_super.png). We saw in the future that Cyclops was to eventually become one of Apocalypse men along side sinister. Considering how we would likely see things come to the brink of Apocalypse's victory before they manage to thwart him and avoid a horrible future, I can't help but think this means we would see Cyclops get tempted by the dark side... hence again, being built up just to be broken down... and wolverine will probably play a key role in making him see the light again.

Yeah, it sounds like they really didn't have a good idea of what to do with Cyclops in this series. When they were promoting the show they said his big arc was getting over his grief and getting back to being a hero, but it never happened. He started his tenure sitting in the back of the Black Bird, and in the three part finale he was still sitting in the back of the Black Bird, with Iceman giving him a dirty look. He never overcame his flaws and thus had no growth, and that's not good storytelling. And as Monte points out we also saw Cycke was mixed up with Apocalypse in yet another bad future, which makes it even harder to believe that they would allow him to become a legitimate hero when they wouldn't even let him be a legitimate hero in flashbacks. Magneto and Mr. Sinister came off as more noble, heroic characters than Cycke did in this series, and when a genocidal terrorist and crazy sadistic geneticist come off as more noble and heroic than one of the main protagonists, that's not a good sign.

Some more shots of Jean -

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/watxmjean.png

[Barbossa]

On the bright side at least this version of Cyclops did not abandon his wife and son to be with his undead girlfriend,so he could have been worse

Anyway its amazing how both the 90s show and this show Jean have the same uniform yet this version looks so much better on her than the 90s one.The same goes for Angel and Rogue

[Trevor]

Anyway its amazing how both the 90s show and this show Jean have the same uniform yet this version looks so much better on her than the 90s one.The same goes for Angel and Rogue


Not quite, since in the 90's series Jean's uniform was more flesh toned than yellow.

[Barbossa]

Ah I see flesh toned ,no wonder she looked silly in the 90s show

[CyclonatorZ]

Some more shots of Jean -

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/watxmjean.png

Oh gosh, I'm sorry, but those proportions are just... ugh. Look, I realize stylizing designs is a perfectly normal and usually acceptable practice in superhero animation, but this just takes it to a whole new level.

[Barbossa]

I am pretty sure Jean would look different in the actual show .The show is not as stylized as most recent Marvel shows

[suss2it]

I am pretty sure Jean would look different in the actual show .The show is not as stylized as most recent Marvel showsWhy would her character design in the show look different from her character design for the show?

[Monte]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246868_224202550941502_133410150020743_865963_7349163_n.jpg


Heh... come to think of it... What exactly could actually cut off wolverine's hand?... An adamantium is not exactly easy to cut through and sever the hand.



Yeah, it sounds like they really didn't have a good idea of what to do with Cyclops in this series. When they were promoting the show they said his big arc was getting over his grief and getting back to being a hero, but it never happened. He started his tenure sitting in the back of the Black Bird, and in the three part finale he was still sitting in the back of the Black Bird, with Iceman giving him a dirty look. He never overcame his flaws and thus had no growth, and that's not good storytelling.

Well techncially they may have been talking about the series as a whole and we never got to see season 2 and thus him return to being a hero... however, what they said was still not accurate. Cyclops never got over his grief and grew; the source of his grief was just removed. He was technically the same exact person at the start as we be later; only difference is that one scott had Jean to hold his hand while the other didn't. If he lost jean again he would turn into the pile of mush he was all over again. That's not character growth but really just showing us different sides of the same character. The most evolution he made was becoming slightly less rage filled, but I feel like he never really seemed to ever get over Jean and move on.

If they really did want scott to go through depression, down to the dark side(well as i think it would based on what little we know of season 2) and toy with a relationship with Emma, it makes me feel like they got it backwards. Season 1 should have had cyclops with jean as hero and leader with the season ending with jean's "disappearance/death"... Season 2(Age of A) as part of his weak emotional state would involve him becoming vulnerable enough to fall to apocalypse/sinister's influence (maybe sinister tempt's scott with a jean clone ;) ).... but in the end, Emma helps scott realize how far he has let himself fall over the loss of Jean and helps him to move on from Jean and thus opening up scott to finding a new genuine love in Emma which would occur over the course of the next season. I feel like that would make for a more sensible character arc for scott

[Rick Jones]

Heh... come to think of it... What exactly could actually cut off wolverine's hand?... An adamantium is not exactly easy to cut through and sever the hand.
I never read Age Of Apocalypse myself (never got into it as a kid) but I believe that Wolverine was supposed to take out one of Cyclops' eyes while Cyke blasted off his hand.

[Trevor]

Ah I see flesh toned ,no wonder she looked silly in the 90s show

Well, it's just like Sabertooth had a flesh-toned suit and I remember quite a few of my friends and I growing up thought that he was running around the show naked, with just the brown in the right area to cover you-know-what.

[W.C.Reaf]

Heh... come to think of it... What exactly could actually cut off wolverine's hand?... An adamantium is not exactly easy to cut through and sever the hand.

He probably had it cut off from the joint. Since there's no way the Adamantium covered the joint part too since he wouldn't be able to move.

So it's feasible that Wolverine could lose body parts if it was done at the joint, but I'm no doctor so I can't say exactly how accurate a mutant with a healing factor that can grow him back from a skeleton and indestructible bones can lose a body part. ;)

[Monte]

I never read Age Of Apocalypse myself (never got into it as a kid) but I believe that Wolverine was supposed to take out one of Cyclops' eyes while Cyke blasted off his hand.

heh, is that so... I wonder if Cyclops can even do that. I mean if I understood correctly a concussive blast should not be good at all for severing a limb, much less one that is covered in adamantium


So it's feasible that Wolverine could lose body parts if it was done at the joint, but I'm no doctor so I can't say exactly how accurate a mutant with a healing factor that can grow him back from a skeleton and indestructible bones can lose a body
Eh the writers were probably using an interpretation of wolverine before his healing factor became so insane. It think in earlier incarnations, wolverine was much less invulnerable... Cuts, broken bones, internal injuries, and diseae he can handle, but a severed limb is beyond him.

[Crash]

heh, is that so... I wonder if Cyclops can even do that. I mean if I understood correctly a concussive blast should not be good at all for severing a limb, much less one that is covered in adamantium.

Well, cutting is done by applying force with an edge. So if Cyke could focus his concussive (force) blast into a fine point or line...And then hit a joint between the bones....And of course, he was raised evil in the original AOA, so he was probably a bit more aggressive and violent there.

At least that's what I gathered from the one AOA trade I read back in the day...

...Anyways, since Cyke is my favorite of the X-characters, is sounds like I wasn't missing much, not watching this show...

[SuperChris]

I'm actually okay with that. That's better than just Wolverine. Don't know who Armor is, so I'm looking forward to finding out ...
While that may be the case, the Cyclops I'm familiar with is the more than capable leader from X-Men: Evolution, Astonishing X-Men (Joss Whedon's run, haven't read any other AXM) and the first 12 issues of Ultimate X-Men (haven't read the rest yet)..

Then you know Armor (although probably don't realize it). Armor is Hisako Ichiki who debuted in Joss Whedon's fourth issue of Astonishing. She's a Joss Whedon creation.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Wow, those designs and plans for season 2...this certainly was a gutsy show. They had a lot of cool ideas for how to approach certain famous X-Men stories and events, and it stinks it only got one season.

[Dragnatek]

heh, is that so... I wonder if Cyclops can even do that. I mean if I understood correctly a concussive blast should not be good at all for severing a limb, much less one that is covered in adamantium


Eh the writers were probably using an interpretation of wolverine before his healing factor became so insane. It think in earlier incarnations, wolverine was much less invulnerable... Cuts, broken bones, internal injuries, and diseae he can handle, but a severed limb is beyond him.

Yeah as I don't think regrowing limbs has ever been part of his healing factor. he can't regrow bone as far as I know and even if he could those new bones would not have animantiam and would not be unbreakable. I believe when he loses limbs he has to reatach the limbs before his skin heals over the wound.

Though it was the ultimate Universe there was a long long LONG delayed Wolverine vs Hulk comic that dealt with that very issue. Hulk rips Wolverine in half and Wolvy tries to find his bottom half so he can attach them before he heals.

[JTMarsh]

Sorry to be flogging a dead horse but some black & white sketches of Cyclops in the present/non-AOA scenes from the abandoned season 2 -

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album 3/DoesThisManNeverSmile.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album 3/IsThatEvoCycke.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album 3/DIVE.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album 3/BlackWhiteCycke.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album 3/AbandonedCyclops.jpg

Does anyone else think it's a little odd that the show's creative team wanted to put Cycke & Jean back in their 90s Jim Lee era costumes, especially considering that show-runner Craig Kyle has gone on record voicing his dislike of the 90s series and what not? Granted the show had some weird priorities, but considering the designs they already had you'd think it would have been easier to just stick them in their Ultimate universe costumes.

Just saying.

Also, the idea of Nolan North's voice coming out of the 90s Cyclops just makes me laugh.

[BigEclipse]

Well, the 90s cartoon costumes were based on Jim Lee's designs from the then comic. Many fans enjoyed Lee's Cyclops redesign so I'm sure that was a factor.

[W.C.Reaf]

especially considering that show-runner Craig Kyle has gone on record voicing his dislike of the 90s series and what not?

Where's he said that? I'm curious to see this as usually they avoid saying negative things about previous shows.

[Andres]

I miss this show, even if it was only about Wolverine. :v:
How many years we'll have to wait for another X-Men tv series? :(

[Rick Jones]

Where's he said that? I'm curious to see this as usually they avoid saying negative things about previous shows.
http://www.411mania.com/movies/columns/81865/The-Vile-One/s-Dungeon:-San-Diego-Comic-Con-2008---Hulk-VS.-Wolverine-Report.htm
(http://www.411mania.com/movies/columns/81865/The-Vile-One/s-Dungeon:-San-Diego-Comic-Con-2008---Hulk-VS.-Wolverine-Report.htm)

Here's the link. I didn't remember him feeling as negatively about it probably because of all of the PC sort of praise he's had to do while promoting other animation but he's welcome to his opinion.

I'm not really sure if I think this adaptation of the Jim Lee look works. It would match him up with Jean's pretty well though. I like the Ultimate Cyclops look and it might be a better fit but it would probably have been a little too dark of a look for the character after he'd gotten Jean back. I wish there was a finalized and colored version of this like there was for the Jean Grey design.

[suss2it]

I miss this show, even if it was only about Wolverine. :v:
How many years we'll have to wait for another X-Men tv series? :(We did just have the X-Men​ anime though.

[JTMarsh]

Well, the 90s cartoon costumes were based on Jim Lee's designs from the then comic. Many fans enjoyed Lee's Cyclops redesign so I'm sure that was a factor.
Don't get me wrong, I grew up with the 90s Jim Lee era Cyclops design, so it tends to be my default image of Cyclops (and Norm Spencer my default voice for Cyclops), I just find it odd that they would bring it back in light of Craig Kyle's dislike of the 90s series and, presumably, that they might want to go with more modern X-Men aesthetics, or perhaps neutral ones. Then again, they were planning to use Jean in season 2 (even though she's been dead in the comics for a few years now) and put Rogue in her 90s yellow/green/brown leather jacket costume as opposed to her more modern green/white attire so, again, the show had some weird priorities.

Look closely and you'll notice he's missing a leg strap.



I'm not really sure if I think this adaptation of the Jim Lee look works. It would match him up with Jean's pretty well though. I like the Ultimate Cyclops look and it might be a better fit but it would probably have been a little too dark of a look for the character after he'd gotten Jean back. I wish there was a finalized and colored version of this like there was for the Jean Grey design.

Well they could have always made his Ultimates costume a lighter shade of blue. The exact shading of any character's costume varies from one artist to another. Just look at Superman - sometimes he gets a light shade blue, sometimes he gets a dark shade of blue, etc.

[Andres]

We did just have the X-Men​ anime though.
Not the same :(

[toonboy53]

Not the same :(

agreed

[JTMarsh]

You know there's something unintentionally funny about reading that old interview with Craig Kyle, boasting about what a "true fan" he is/was and how W&TXM was going to be the most spiritually honest & definitive X-Men cartoon ever - despite the fact that it bent over backwards to cater to Wolverine. And then the show only lasts one season. I find that unintentionally funny for some reason.

Oh and thanks for posting that link, Rick Jones.

Some other lost designs -

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteJeanGreyAgain.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteJeanGrey.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteKitty.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteDomino.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteIceman.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhitePolaris.jpg

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo261/8-2-B-4-9-5/Album%203/BlackWhiteWanda.jpg

[90'sCartoonMan]

You know there's something unintentionally funny about reading that old interview with Craig Kyle, boasting about what a "true fan" he is/was and how W&TXM was going to be the most spiritually honest & definitive X-Men cartoon ever - despite the fact that it bent over backwards to cater to Wolverine. And then the show only lasts one season. I find that unintentionally funny for some reason.

It's kind of darkly funny, but it's also depressing. I feel like it had the potential to be a great X-Men cartoon that covers the feelings and important moments of many different eras in the comics. I'm not one to really compare shows in terms of which is "definitive" and yes, Wolverine was obviously the focus, but episodes like the Nightcrawler one and the Cyclops one showed that it was willing to go outside Wolverine and into the greater X-Men world. Scott's breakdown wasn't meant to be carried throughout the whole series, the designs alone prove they wanted him to get back on the horse. The show was definitely cut too short, and if it were given as many episodes as X-Men: TAS or Evolution, I'm sure Kyle would've really had something to be proud of.

[JTMarsh]

It's kind of darkly funny, but it's also depressing. I feel like it had the potential to be a great X-Men cartoon that covers the feelings and important moments of many different eras in the comics. I'm not one to really compare shows in terms of which is "definitive" and yes, Wolverine was obviously the focus, but episodes like the Nightcrawler one and the Cyclops one showed that it was willing to go outside Wolverine and into the greater X-Men world. Scott's breakdown wasn't meant to be carried throughout the whole series, the designs alone prove they wanted him to get back on the horse. The show was definitely cut too short, and if it were given as many episodes as X-Men: TAS or Evolution, I'm sure Kyle would've really had something to be proud of.
In the bold: I want to believe that, I really do, but given the show's overall agenda - not to mention the poor writing of his origin episode - I just can't.

Funny enough, Craig Kyle actually wasn't going to be all that heavily involved with season 2, not with his promotion to being in Marvel's film studio lot (you can see hi name on the credits of both Thor and Captain America), and Chris Yost was off to do "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes", so most of the heavy lifting would have fallen on Greg Johnson.

[TheVileOne]

JTMarsh, I don't really agree with your assertion considering there are plenty of successful and quality shows that don't last very long. Should we dismiss Spectacular Spider-Man as well since it didn't get more than 26 episodes? Does that make it less relevant? I felt it was a great show and if you look at the numbers it was a success. Kyle was expressing an opinion and he was pumping up the new show he was working on and was excited about.

Also there are many instances when people who create or start the groundwork for a series move on or shift to other projects and creative duties are taken over by others. It's pretty common in comics as well ;) .

[suss2it]

JTMarsh, I don't really agree with your assertion considering there are plenty of successful and quality shows that don't last very long. Should we dismiss Spectacular Spider-Man as well since it didn't get more than 26 episodes? Does that make it less relevant? I felt it was a great show and if you look at the numbers it was a success. Kyle was expressing an opinion and he was pumping up the new show he was working on and was excited about.

Also there are many instances when people who create or start the groundwork for a series move on or shift to other projects and creative duties are taken over by others. It's pretty common in comics as well ;) .
WatXM was a good show to be sure, but it had way to many mediocre and average episodes to be considered great. Not to mention the whole focusing on Wolverine to the detriment of the rest of the cast thing they had going on.

[TheVileOne]

We can go back and forth, but I never found the show to be mediocre. And I don't think that's why the show didn't continue. Also FYI, I conducted that initial interview between Kyle and Yost from 2008.

It was no more mediocre to me than say Justice League which had a whole first season to me that encompassed the words mediocrity and disappointment. I think if you look at just about any series though even the best ones you will find episodes that are not so great or sort of like, "what was going on there?" Also even in the later seasons of Justice League, Cartoon Network was messing around with the episode orders and relegating the show to sporadic air times a lot. I think Young Justice is a well made show but I also find a lot of elements about it problematic and flawed.

[suss2it]

We can go back and forth, but I never found the show to be mediocre. And I don't think that's why the show didn't continue. Also FYI, I conducted that initial interview between Kyle and Yost from 2008. I don't think the show is mediocre either, just that there's too much mediocrity for it to be considered great. I also don't think the level of quality is why it got cancelled. Wasn't it because a financier pulled out or went bankrupt or something?


It was no more mediocre to me than say Justice League which had a whole first season to me that encompassed the words mediocrity and disappointment.True, but Justice League got a lot better in its second season and in JLU. Unfortunately it's not a chance that WatXM is getting.

I think if you look at just about any series though even the best ones you will find episodes that are not so great or sort of like, "what was going on there?"Not necessarily. I haven't really felt that way towards Spectacular Spider-Man,Avengers: EMH & Young Justice. They do have weaker episodes to be sure, but not nearly as bad as WatXM's "Wolverine vs. Hulk" or "Code of Conduct".


Also even in the later seasons of Justice League, Cartoon Network was messing around with the episode orders and relegating the show to sporadic air times a lot.What does that have to do with quality of JLU in regards to WatXM?

[TheVileOne]

Just this idea of how definitive or great a show is seems to be defined by how long it went. While even a revered show like Justice League seemed to be almost forgotten by CN near it's end.

[suss2it]

Just this idea of how definitive or great a show is seems to be defined by how long it went. While even a revered show like Justice League seemed to be almost forgotten by CN near it's end.I don't think much people even have that idea. Just look at how well regarded Spectacular Spider-Man is.

[W.C.Reaf]

I don't think much people even have that idea. Just look at how well regarded Spectacular Spider-Man is.

And look at how many people have debated the "definitive" label and preferring to stick it on Spidey TAS with one of their arguments being "because it has more episodes than SSM."

So there are fans out there that do regard having more episodes as being better.

[Medinnus]

And look at how many people have debated the "definitive" label and preferring to stick it on Spidey TAS with one of their arguments being "because it has more episodes than SSM."

I'm not sure I'd describe SSM as "definitive" as such - but it comes much closer than any other of his s



So there are fans out there that do regard having more episodes as being better.

Quantity means little.

[90'sCartoonMan]

In the bold: I want to believe that, I really do, but given the show's overall agenda - not to mention the poor writing of his origin episode - I just can't.

I'm more optimistic than you, I suppose. I liked Cyclops' origin episode because, even though it showed Wolverine as the "bigger man", it still implied that Scott struggled to fit in with the team at first and STILL rose to the rank of leader. I feel like in whatever season 2 ep would've brought him back to normal, they could also parallel that to his rise to the great and respected X-Men leader.

...wow, I'm defending Cyclops...I must've hit my head or something...


Funny enough, Craig Kyle actually wasn't going to be all that heavily involved with season 2, not with his promotion to being in Marvel's film studio lot (you can see hi name on the credits of both Thor and Captain America), and Chris Yost was off to do "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes", so most of the heavy lifting would have fallen on Greg Johnson.

Johnson's trustworthy.


So there are fans out there that do regard having more episodes as being better.

We must all pay our respects and realize no other superhero show will come close to touching the awesomeness that is Super Friends and Smallville. Surely those shows, which ran for a decade, are the best interpretations we've ever seen of those characters.

[JTMarsh]

I'm more optimistic than you, I suppose. I liked Cyclops' origin episode because, even though it showed Wolverine as the "bigger man", it still implied that Scott struggled to fit in with the team at first and STILL rose to the rank of leader.

In the Bold: Um, where exactly does the episode say that? All it said was that he was emotionally crippled, couldn't get by one basic training exercise, couldn't even zap Magneto, in all his Ian McKellan-Gandalf-Gone-Evil-Glory, at point blank range, and didn't know when to cut his losses with women. Even his fellow misfits don't seem very fond of him.



I feel like in whatever season 2 ep would've brought him back to normal, they could also parallel that to his rise to the great and respected X-Men leader.

I wish I could believe that, but it's like trying to believe Bryan Singer when he says that Cyclops would have finally gotten his due in X3 had he stayed on board and not done that awful 'Superman Returns'. When so much time & effort is put into depicting the whole universe as 'Wolverine & His Backup Band' it's hard to take promises like that seriously.



...wow, I'm defending Cyclops...I must've hit my head or something...

I could slap you if it would help you stop. ;)



Johnson's trustworthy.

He's doing GI Joe Renegades now, right?



We must all pay our respects and realize no other superhero show will come close to touching the awesomeness that is Super Friends (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Super+Friends) and Smallville. Surely those shows, which ran for a decade, are the best interpretations we've ever seen of those characters.

I have no great fondness for either series, and would probably cite Super Friends as an example of quantity not equaling quality.

I'm less concerned with who had more episodes - and who stayed or went in production - than I am with the quality of the writing. I'll admit I wasn't fond of its character designs but "The Spectacular Spider-Man" was a much better written show than the 90s Spider-Man series (even when I was watching the 90s Spider-Man age 11-14 I thought the writing got worse as time went by - butchered Secret War adaptation anyone?), and it's really unfortunate it didn't continue. The 2002 He-Man series was better written & acted than the two previous He-Man cartoons combined and it's a shame that died before it had a chance to finish the stories & destinies the He-Man universe keeps setting up and never fulfilling. TSSM & 2002 He-Man both did a better job of giving its heroes a day in the limelight than W&TXM did, as does Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Even the first season of Justice League, with all its rough spots, did a better job of this and did a better job of making me care about its characters than W&TXM. When Justice League season 1 ended with "The Savage Time" I actually felt an investment in its cast; I actually felt some genuine concern for what would happen to John "Green Lantern" Stewart when his ring died on him, and when Stewart risked it all to do his part to stop Vandal Savage, I felt like I was watching a hero at work. I didn't really feel any of that for the cast of W&TXM in its finale, whether it was the bulk of the X-Men Vs. Sentinels, Cyclops getting punked by Sebastian Shaw and his Inner Circle of Victorian Fetishists, or the X-Men getting punked by out of control Phoenix. When Cyclops tried to face off with the Phoenix the gesture felt hollow and empty rather than heroic and meaningful. That's what happens when writers show more interest in doing G-rated rematches with the Hulk and showcasing ninjas than they do about giving the core heroes a fair shake.

To use a food analogy, the casts of TSSM, He-Man 2002, Avengers and Justice League ate fairly at their dinner tables (even if Justice League sometimes settled for less than worthy TV dinners), whereas the table of W&TXM was dominated by Wolverine hogging all the steak, bacon, and roast beef for himself, Emma Frost making do with a salad, Nightcrawler & Rogue sharing mashed potatoes, Cyclops trying to get by on scraps of bread (and not even fresh bread at that) and the other X-Men more or less starving. This has been a bit of a problem with "Young Justice" where Superboy & Miss Martian have more often than not gotten the steak while the others either settle for salad (Aqualad, Artemis, Robin) or scraps of bread (Kid Flash). The new "Thundercats", which seems to have completely disappeared from Cartoon Network since the last episode, has a habit of giving Lion-O all the steak and making the other characters settle for less, with one episode dedicated to letting Panthro have the steak and the last episode requiring that Lion-O split the steak with Tygra, and I'm saying that as someone who enjoys that show a lot more than YJ.

Whoever becomes the show-runner(s) of the next X-Men series I hope they do a better job of distributing the meat than the show-runners of W&TXM did.

[90'sCartoonMan]

In the Bold: Um, where exactly does the episode say that? All it said was that he was emotionally crippled, couldn't get by one basic training exercise, couldn't even zap Magneto, in all his Ian McKellan-Gandalf-Gone-Evil-Glory, at point blank range, and didn't know when to cut his losses with women. Even his fellow misfits don't seem very fond of him.

But that was when Scott first joined the team, right? Wasn't he leader right before they broke up or am I misremembering things and filling in details of things that didn't happen?



I wish I could believe that, but it's like trying to believe Bryan Singer when he says that Cyclops would have finally gotten his due in X3 had he stayed on board and not done that awful 'Superman Returns'. When so much time & effort is put into depicting the whole universe as 'Wolverine & His Backup Band' it's hard to take promises like that seriously.

I'd never believe that in a million years.



I could slap you if it would help you stop. ;)

Blame X-Men: Evolution (and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men a couple years later). They made me realize that although it's fun to hate Cyclops, I'd much rather be rooting for him to be a more interesting character than see him punished for being sucky.



He's doing GI Joe Renegades now, right?

Perhaps, I'm not sure. I dig him for his 90's and other superhero stuff.



I have no great fondness for either series, and would probably cite Super Friends as an example of quantity not equaling quality.

That was me being sarcastic. I think neither Super Friends nor Smallville are all that great in the grand scheme of things, especially in comparison to other versions of the Justice League and Superman that didn't last nearly as long.



To use a food analogy, the casts of TSSM, He-Man 2002, Avengers and Justice League ate fairly at their dinner tables (even if Justice League sometimes settled for less than worthy TV dinners), whereas the table of W&TXM was dominated by Wolverine hogging all the steak, bacon, and roast beef for himself, Emma Frost making do with a salad, Nightcrawler & Rogue sharing mashed potatoes, Cyclops trying to get by on scraps of bread (and not even fresh bread at that) and the other X-Men more or less starving. This has been a bit of a problem with "Young Justice" where Superboy & Miss Martian have more often than not gotten the steak while the others either settle for salad (Aqualad, Artemis, Robin) or scraps of bread (Kid Flash). The new "Thundercats", which seems to have completely disappeared from Cartoon Network since the last episode, has a habit of giving Lion-O all the steak and making the other characters settle for less, with one episode dedicated to letting Panthro have the steak and the last episode requiring that Lion-O split the steak with Tygra, and I'm saying that as someone who enjoys that show a lot more than YJ.

Whoever becomes the show-runner(s) of the next X-Men series I hope they do a better job of distributing the meat than the show-runners of W&TXM did.

Here's how I saw the show. Wolverine is an X-Man, moreso than Batman is a member of the Justice League or Thor is an Avenger. It's not wise to have Wolverine without the X-Men (although the anime series pulled it off) because the more characters you can bring in, the more stories you can do and the more you'll interest people. Even the Wolverine movie had the word "X-Men" right in the title and featured other mutants aside from Wolverine. I always kind of saw Wolverine and the X-Men operating under the same principle. Sort of like the first season of the 90's Iron Man cartoon. It could've been called "Iron Man and Force Works" (or to use your example "Lion-O and the Thundercats", LOSH could've easily been "Superman/boy and the Legion of Superheroes"). Iron Man was the steak, Julia and Rhodey were the sides, Clint was the dessert, and the others were bread. Just because there are other heroes on the show doesn't make it an ensemble show. Those are shows with a main character and his supporting cast, something Justice League and Avengers aren't because you don't have a clear main character.

That was always W&TXM's intention, mostly to distinguish itself from previous X-Men cartoons (ensembles) by focusing on one character (and to co-star the X-Men because hey, it's the X-Men), and while it did have subplots and a couple episodes that focused on other characters, it was Wolverine's show.

[JTMarsh]

But that was when Scott first joined the team, right? Wasn't he leader right before they broke up or am I misremembering things and filling in details of things that didn't happen?

The show never really established that he was the leader prior to the events of the pilot; as near as anyone can tell he was just a guy living there rent free because the X-gang didn't have the heart to kick him out.



I'd never believe that in a million years.

It's a lot like trying to believe Bryan Singer when he claimed his abandoned sequel to 'Superman Returns' would have been 'The Wrath of Khan of Superman films'. And trying to believe Cyclops was gonna "get back on the horse" would have required throwing too much of what we saw in season 1 under a bus.



Perhaps, I'm not sure. I dig him for his 90's and other superhero stuff.

He did good work on Beast Wars.



That was me being sarcastic. I think neither Super Friends nor Smallville are all that great in the grand scheme of things, especially in comparison to other versions of the Justice League and Superman that didn't last nearly as long.

Ah, sarcasm. Sometimes it's hard to catch when you don't have a voice to go with it.



Here's how I saw the show. Wolverine is an X-Man, moreso than Batman is a member of the Justice League or Thor is an Avenger. It's not wise to have Wolverine without the X-Men (although the anime series pulled it off) because the more characters you can bring in, the more stories you can do and the more you'll interest people. Even the Wolverine movie had the word "X-Men" right in the title and featured other mutants aside from Wolverine. I always kind of saw Wolverine and the X-Men operating under the same principle. Sort of like the first season of the 90's Iron Man cartoon. It could've been called "Iron Man and Force Works" (or to use your example "Lion-O and the Thundercats", LOSH could've easily been "Superman/boy and the Legion of Superheroes"). Iron Man was the steak, Julia and Rhodey were the sides, Clint was the dessert, and the others were bread. Just because there are other heroes on the show doesn't make it an ensemble show. Those are shows with a main character and his supporting cast, something Justice League and Avengers aren't because you don't have a clear main character.

That was always W&TXM's intention, mostly to distinguish itself from previous X-Men cartoons (ensembles) by focusing on one character (and to co-star the X-Men because hey, it's the X-Men), and while it did have subplots and a couple episodes that focused on other characters, it was Wolverine's show.
I still think they could have done a better job of spreading the food around.

[suss2it]

I still think they could have done a better job of spreading the food around.I think they did a great job with Nightcrawler and Angel at least.

The problem with making Wolverine the focus for the show is that his powers just don't work that well in a kids' cartoon. He has knives coming out of his hands, but he's now allowed to cut/stab/hack anyone (aside from robots) so the action always looks kinda jarring and chopped up. With Evolution he wasn't the center piece, so he wasn't in all the action, therefore it wasn't nearly as noticeable. In that aspect I think the higher rating for "Hulk vs. Wolverine" and Wolverine and X-Men animes definitely made Wolverine feel more like the feral badass that he's suppose to be.

Another problem is that they tried to make Wolverine the leader, just because he's the main character. We still could've had him do all his side adventures and what not, and just have Storm be the leader of the team. But at first I thought it was clever to do the whole role-reversal thing with him and Cyke, but they never made Wolverine wrong or had him make a bad call as leader. It would've been interesting to see him struggle with the role of leadership, and balance it with his need to go side quests every now and then. Cyclops' ability to lead was never, showcased as well, so his supposed fall from grace feels more like a stumble for him.

[ShockDingo]

This is amazing! I never knew that these would ever be released! I like the Jim Lee looks popping in. I'm real sad that this got canceled. :( With the awesomeness of EoH, I'm hoping for more marvel shows, an X-men one included. *sigh* Oh well, gotta be patient I guess.

[Monte]

But that was when Scott first joined the team, right? Wasn't he leader right before they broke up or am I misremembering things and filling in details of things that didn't happen?


Frankly i awlays hated the cyclops origin episode because the focus was not where it needed to be (showing us what scott was like before his depression and how strong his realtionship with Jean was). The first half was about him before he became an x-men. after that we get Scott and Jean meeting and their first fight with magneto; but this played very little on their relationship and more on how powerful Jean was going to be. And then there was the conflict between him and wolverine which really only worked to make scott look like a jealous boyfriend that's so bad that's he's the one to throw the first punch; wolverine was rude, but just misunderstood (even in his own flashback the writers make him look bad to make wolverine look good)

This was the show's chance to finally show us what scott was like when he was leader of the team and how strong of a relationship he had with Jean. But the flashback never showed him being a good leader, and it mostly focus on the less healthy aspects of his relationship with Jean. Overall, not only did i not see scott as a leader, but also was unconvinced that his relationship with jean was EVER as strong as he likes to act like it was.



Here's how I saw the show. Wolverine is an X-Man, moreso than Batman is a member of the Justice League or Thor is an Avenger. It's not wise to have Wolverine without the X-Men (although the anime series pulled it off) because the more characters you can bring in, the more stories you can do and the more you'll interest people. Even the Wolverine movie had the word "X-Men" right in the title and featured other mutants aside from Wolverine. I always kind of saw Wolverine and the X-Men operating under the same principle. Sort of like the first season of the 90's Iron Man cartoon. It could've been called "Iron Man and Force Works" (or to use your example "Lion-O and the Thundercats", LOSH could've easily been "Superman/boy and the Legion of Superheroes"). Iron Man was the steak, Julia and Rhodey were the sides, Clint was the dessert, and the others were bread. Just because there are other heroes on the show doesn't make it an ensemble show. Those are shows with a main character and his supporting cast, something Justice League and Avengers aren't because you don't have a clear main character.

That was always W&TXM's intention, mostly to distinguish itself from previous X-Men cartoons (ensembles) by focusing on one character (and to co-star the X-Men because hey, it's the X-Men), and while it did have subplots and a couple episodes that focused on other characters, it was Wolverine's show.

The problem is however that the x-men has always been about a TEAM of superheros. Though you might get a storyline that focuses on one character more than the others, the focus is always switching from character to character. Instead of treating them like support characters, most of the x-men are treated as having equal importance by the writers. you don't have one main character and a bunch of secondary character, but a cast of main characters.

Basically making wolverine the focus of an x-men series does not work well because most of the rest of the cast also have a lot of fans and they will want to see those characters get their fair share. They don't tune into an x-men show just to watch one character, but to watch them all.


What also makes it more troubling is that wolverine as leader felt contrived. By exactly what credentials does wolverine have to lead them? I find that wolverine makes a fine field leader, but not really so much as good an overall leader; One aspect that i feel was overlooked by WatXM is the fact that x-men are not just a team of fighters, but also a leader in the overall mutant civil rights movement. A leader shouldn't only be good in the field, but also be good with diplomacy (wolverine at his best tends to be blunt and honest, than diplomatic). With Xavier comatose and Scott in depression, Storm seems like the next best choice of leader... Beast might also be an adequate leader for the team. You want somone who can not only lead the x-men, but could also be the face of mutant civil rights. Hell despite being leader of the team, wolverine repeatedly left to go pursue his own personal vendettas. Not to mention it felt hypocritical when he would criticize someone for doing something that he would do if he was in their place. Really thoughout the series i really didn't feel like he made such a good leader




The problem with making Wolverine the focus for the show is that his powers just don't work that well in a kids' cartoon. He has knives coming out of his hands, but he's now allowed to cut/stab/hack anyone (aside from robots) so the action always looks kinda jarring and chopped up. With Evolution he wasn't the center piece, so he wasn't in all the action, therefore it wasn't nearly as noticeable. In that aspect I think the higher rating for "Hulk vs. Wolverine" and Wolverine and X-Men animes definitely made Wolverine feel more like the feral badass that he's suppose to be.

Another problem is that they tried to make Wolverine the leader, just because he's the main character. We still could've had him do all his side adventures and what not, and just have Storm be the leader of the team. But at first I thought it was clever to do the whole role-reversal thing with him and Cyke, but they never made Wolverine wrong or had him make a bad call as leader. It would've been interesting to see him struggle with the role of leadership, and balance it with his need to go side quests every now and then. Cyclops' ability to lead was never, showcased as well, so his supposed fall from grace feels more like a stumble for him.

Wolverine is x-men that gets the most solo attention from the comics. He has had backstories added on to his backstories. Wolverine basically has so much backstory that he could easily carry a solo series for himself. In fact ithink i recall the wrtiers of WatXM of once saying that was their original idea; they were gonna create a wolverine solo series, but then for some reason decided to turn into an x-men series... frankly it seems like a bad idea to make an x-men show that focuses on just ONE character and pushes the rest to the side no matter how you tell it; it would have been better to leave the rest of the x-men out (save for maybe a guest spot) and just made a wolverine solo series... by giving the other x-men time all you end up doing is disappointing a lot of fans who would have liked to see those other characters get more screen time and/or better treatment.

[90'sCartoonMan]

It's a lot like trying to believe Bryan Singer when he claimed his abandoned sequel to 'Superman Returns' would have been 'The Wrath of Khan of Superman films'. And trying to believe Cyclops was gonna "get back on the horse" would have required throwing too much of what we saw in season 1 under a bus.

I'm starting to think it's Marsden's appearances on 30 Rock that are making me want to defend Cyclops. In any event, comic books (particularly Marvel) in the last 10-20 years seem to love tearing a hero down to build him back up, but mostly focus on tearing them down and never get around to the building up part (see: Matt Murdock). I like to think my superhero cartoons are a bit more optimistic.



Ah, sarcasm. Sometimes it's hard to catch when you don't have a voice to go with it.

How about a nice picture? "Superfriends and Smallville are the be-all and end-all of superhero shows :shrug:"



I still think they could have done a better job of spreading the food around.

That I agree with, although I will say at least they lived up to the series' title. If the eps hadn't been Wolverine-centric, we'd wonder why his name came first.


The problem with making Wolverine the focus for the show is that his powers just don't work that well in a kids' cartoon. He has knives coming out of his hands, but he's now allowed to cut/stab/hack anyone (aside from robots) so the action always looks kinda jarring and chopped up. With Evolution he wasn't the center piece, so he wasn't in all the action, therefore it wasn't nearly as noticeable. In that aspect I think the higher rating for "Hulk vs. Wolverine" and Wolverine and X-Men animes definitely made Wolverine feel more like the feral badass that he's suppose to be.

Eh, look at He-Man, Lion-O, and half the Ninja Turtles...bladed weapons still get used a lot in cartoons (and by "still" apparently I mean the 80's because I can't think of any more contemporary examples).


Frankly i awlays hated the cyclops origin episode because the focus was not where it needed to be (showing us what scott was like before his depression and how strong his realtionship with Jean was). The first half was about him before he became an x-men. after that we get Scott and Jean meeting and their first fight with magneto; but this played very little on their relationship and more on how powerful Jean was going to be. And then there was the conflict between him and wolverine which really only worked to make scott look like a jealous boyfriend that's so bad that's he's the one to throw the first punch; wolverine was rude, but just misunderstood (even in his own flashback the writers make him look bad to make wolverine look good)

This was the show's chance to finally show us what scott was like when he was leader of the team and how strong of a relationship he had with Jean. But the flashback never showed him being a good leader, and it mostly focus on the less healthy aspects of his relationship with Jean. Overall, not only did i not see scott as a leader, but also was unconvinced that his relationship with jean was EVER as strong as he likes to act like it was.

I hated Wolverine in the flashbacks, but I still think that episode was meant as part of Scott's deconstruction and we would've seen him in a better light in flashbacks when they got to his reconstruction. Also, Wolverine would've paired off with Jean so Scott and Emma could get together.


The problem is however that the x-men has always been about a TEAM of superheros. Though you might get a storyline that focuses on one character more than the others, the focus is always switching from character to character. Instead of treating them like support characters, most of the x-men are treated as having equal importance by the writers. you don't have one main character and a bunch of secondary character, but a cast of main characters.

Well, this show was an experiment in seeing if they could do something different with the X-Men. I can't really blame them for trying it, after the straight up adaptaion in the 90's and the back to teenagers adaptation in the 00's, they needed another angle.


What also makes it more troubling is that wolverine as leader felt contrived. By exactly what credentials does wolverine have to lead them? I find that wolverine makes a fine field leader, but not really so much as good an overall leader; One aspect that i feel was overlooked by WatXM is the fact that x-men are not just a team of fighters, but also a leader in the overall mutant civil rights movement. A leader shouldn't only be good in the field, but also be good with diplomacy (wolverine at his best tends to be blunt and honest, than diplomatic). With Xavier comatose and Scott in depression, Storm seems like the next best choice of leader... Beast might also be an adequate leader for the team. You want somone who can not only lead the x-men, but could also be the face of mutant civil rights. Hell despite being leader of the team, wolverine repeatedly left to go pursue his own personal vendettas. Not to mention it felt hypocritical when he would criticize someone for doing something that he would do if he was in their place. Really thoughout the series i really didn't feel like he made such a good leader

I agree with what you and Suss say about the leadership angle. Although it's often the case, the main character doesn't have to be the leader, and it would've made for better team dynamics if Wolverine wasn't.


Wolverine basically has so much backstory that he could easily carry a solo series for himself. In fact ithink i recall the wrtiers of WatXM of once saying that was their original idea; they were gonna create a wolverine solo series, but then for some reason decided to turn into an x-men series...

That reason being fans (even Wolverine fans) would say "Okay, so when do the rest of the X-Men show up?" Better to include them from the very beginning so they can eat their cake and still have it.

[JTMarsh]

I'm starting to think it's Marsden's appearances on 30 Rock that are making me want to defend Cyclops. In any event, comic books (particularly Marvel) in the last 10-20 years seem to love tearing a hero down to build him back up, but mostly focus on tearing them down and never get around to the building up part (see: Matt Murdock). I like to think my superhero cartoons are a bit more optimistic.

Because even in a post-90s era they still love to be "darker and edgier", thus more emphasis on tearing a hero down instead of building him back up.



Eh, look at He-Man, Lion-O, and half the Ninja Turtles...bladed weapons still get used a lot in cartoons (and by "still" apparently I mean the 80's because I can't think of any more contemporary examples).

And somehow those heroes manage not to shed any blood in cartoons despite the bladed weapons, usually by fighting robots or just really careful editing.



I hated Wolverine in the flashbacks, but I still think that episode was meant as part of Scott's deconstruction and we would've seen him in a better light in flashbacks when they got to his reconstruction.

Given how messed up the "deconstruction" was and how improperly resolved his "arc" was I still have hard time believing their "big plans" for him in season 2 would have worked, given that their solution, replacing his black & gray emo look with the blue & yellow Jim Lee costume, was basically little more than just putting lipstick on a pig and hoping no one would notice.



Also, Wolverine would've paired off with Jean so Scott and Emma could get together.

Assuming they didn't drop a bridge on her as the comics did.



Well, this show was an experiment in seeing if they could do something different with the X-Men. I can't really blame them for trying it, after the straight up adaptaion in the 90's and the back to teenagers adaptation in the 00's, they needed another angle.

This show basically did what the movies did (and the comics are now doing) - made Wolverine the heir to Xavier's throne. That's hardly experimenting.

[TheVileOne]

Johnson was a writer on GI JOE: Renegades. Including the Snake Eyes origin episode.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Given how messed up the "deconstruction" was and how improperly resolved his "arc" was I still have hard time believing their "big plans" for him in season 2 would have worked, given that their solution, replacing his black & gray emo look with the blue & yellow Jim Lee costume, was basically little more than just putting lipstick on a pig and hoping no one would notice.

Guess we'll never know. I just don't think Scott would've been kept in his funk and embarrassed to make Logan awesome for the entire series. That's like if TAS was cancelled after one season and thinking Beast would be incapacitated for the whole run.



Assuming they didn't drop a bridge on her as the comics did.

Maybe they would've, maybe they wouldn't have.


This show basically did what the movies did (and the comics are now doing) - made Wolverine the heir to Xavier's throne. That's hardly experimenting.

Well, if the comics are doing that now, Wolverine and the X-Men still came first. As for the movies, a couple 90 minute live action movies are different forms of storytelling than a serialized half hour cartoon, so it's still relatively a new idea.