The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes "Hail, Hydra!" Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

Discuss this all-new episode of The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes debuting today at 10:00am (ET) on Disney XD!

http://marvel.toonzone.net/avengersemh/talkback.jpg (http://marvel.toonzone.net/avengersemh/)
Click here (http://marvel.toonzone.net/avengersemh/reviews/21hailhydra/) for more details on this episode!The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes "Hail, Hydra!"
Episode Premiere Date - May 22nd, 2011
Hydra and AIM are waging war against one another in the streets of New York, and only one person knows why… the Black Widow. She knows that AIM has created the ultimate weapon for Hydra, a weapon so powerful that MODOC wants it for himself. It’s called the Cosmic Cube, and to touch it is to change the world. But the Avengers have another problem… they’ve just been grounded by SHIELD, now under the control of Maria Hill.

Comments?

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[Medinnus]

Kevin Burke and Chris Wyatt have been the writers on this plot thread all the way through the season, and they've done an excellent job of bringing it to this conclusion. The storytelling is a masterful blend of recap exposition, character moments, humor, and more subplot development. Likewise, Vinton Hueck has become one of my favorite episode directors with this thread. Well done, all!

We see here the beginning of something which can grow to resemble the Marvel comic book event "Civil War", with the new Director of SHIELD determined to make the Avengers join SHIELD, shut them down, or put them in the super-prison with the villains. Hopefully this incarnation of that theme will be executed better than the illogical, confused, boring mess that Marvel made of it.

The moment with Hawkeye and Captain America as Hawkeye prepares for his trick shot is very "Cap's Kooky Quartet" of that era of Avengers goodness (Avengers. v1 #16 to around the 40's). Hawkeye repeatedly referred to Captain America as "Old Man" or "Methusaleh" or "Cap Van Winkle" or somesuch. This is perhaps one of the best character moments of the season for me.

In other notes:

* The Black Widow isn't a traitor! And there was much rejoicing! :D

* Nick Fury has disappeared, so she has no way to prove it. Boo! :evil:

* Another nice leadership ability moment with Captain America and Hulk, exemplifying that the best way to earn trust and respect is to give it.

* Speaking of the whole Civil War craptasticness, its nice to see Iron Man acting like a hero and not a SHIELD stooge. Civil War pretty much ruined Tony Stark as a heroic character in the MU 616; fortunately, this version of Stark isn't a victim of the plotlines.

* Lukin has already been mentioned as a Russian crime boss, so I'd always suspected that we would get to see the Winter Soldier at some point!

* I am working with the assumption that Captain America didn't make a conscious wish, and that the Cosmic Cube took his greatest desire from his subconscious... does that mean that Baron Von Strucker got a subconscious wish as well? Perhaps this means the return of... the Red Skull?

[math56]

I loved this episode, but I imagined Bucky would be brought back to life by the Cube. But I imagined Cap would possess it. I am almost sure Strcuker´s wish will be Red Skull, like if Red Skull had find a way to life trough the years. I was glad to see the first kiss in the series but I think Jan and Hank deserved that. I think will see Black Widow in season 2, like in another team or maybe the Avengers.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Cool episode -- although there were some moments of inconsistency with the animation that were pretty bad (watch for Iron Man's left shoulder expand to a huge pivot ball in one scene then shrink back to normal in the next).

I loved the idea of the cosmic cube bringing Bucky back. I don't read Captain America comics, so I don't really know if this is how it happened there, but could it be possible that we'll see Winter Soldier in animated form? Or even possibly that Bucky will temporarily replace Steve Rogers as Cap, and may be the one that Kang The Conqueror was really talking about when he said Cap would be the blame of destroying the timeline? Or maybe it was just Steve's cosmic cube wish that caused what Kang was talking about ?

[Munkiman]

Agreed with Medinnus on all counts, but I also have to bring up the moment when Hawkeye shoots Ant-Man through several buildings, between Strucker and the Cube, and Ant-Man regrows and punches Strucker in the face. That was fantastic.

Also, Hill is an idiot. Just sayin'.

[Vampire_King]

Okay it was okay the first time
but now this poorly edited intro is starting to annoy me....
i hope they're not gonna do this for S2

[honorableninja]

um correct me if i'm wrong but i sure i saw nick fury in casket of anicent winters the episode before this so that mean that casket of anicent winters is the same as widiow sting show out of order or something?

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Agreed with Medinnus on all counts, but I also have to bring up the moment when Hawkeye shoots Ant-Man through several buildings, between Strucker and the Cube, and Ant-Man regrows and punches Strucker in the face. That was fantastic.

Agreed. That was awesome!

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hawkeyeiconic3.jpg



Okay it was okay the first time
but now this poorly edited intro is starting to annoy me....
i hope they're not gonna do this for S2

And I agree with this as well. I missed last week's episode, so this is the first time I seen this new intro. Just terrible! TERRIBLE! And just when I was starting to get used to and learned to love the theme song, too.

[Crash]

That...Really should have been a two-parter!

Seriously. Anything that starts with an EMP going off over NYC--let alone multiple EMPs--should be given the most epic treatment available. Add to that the fact that this episode was meant to tie up all the AIM and Hydra storylines... And the Black Widow storyarc... And to start a new storyarc with Fury missing and Hill taking charge... There was more than enough here to develop it into a two-parter.

Of course, thanks to that last shot, all is forgiven. It made perfect sense story-wise and character-wise. It was flawlessly executed. ...And I'm a little impressed that Bucky's lack-of-arm made it passed the censors... Yeah. Just the kind of ending that makes you psyched for more!

[Munkiman]

Or maybe it was just Steve's cosmic cube wish that caused what Kang was talking about ?
That's an excellent point, now Cap actually has done something to alter reality.


um correct me if i'm wrong but i sure i saw nick fury in casket of anicent winters the episode before this so that mean that casket of anicent winters is the same as widiow sting show out of order or something?

Or he just now disappeared.


That...Really should have been a two-parter!

Seriously. Anything that starts with an EMP going off over NYC--let alone multiple EMPs--should be given the most epic treatment available. Add to that the fact that this episode was meant to tie up all the AIM and Hydra storylines... And the Black Widow storyarc... And to start a new storyarc with Fury missing and Hill taking charge... There was more than enough here to develop it into a two-parter.

Of course, thanks to that last shot, all is forgiven. It made perfect sense story-wise and character-wise. It was flawlessly executed. ...And I'm a little impressed that Bucky's lack-of-arm made it passed the censors... Yeah. Just the kind of ending that makes you psyched for more!
I disagree, I think that the episode gave the perfect amount of time to each plot point, it really was very well-paced. In fact, pacing hasn't been nearly as much of a problem in the last bunch of episodes as it was early on, which I'm glad about.

And oh man, I didn't even notice that Bucky had only one arm, but I checked again and you're totally right! That is pretty great.

[RoyalRubble]

Following the events from "The Widow's Sting", this episode sees Baron Von Strucker and Hydra launching an all-out war on AIM, trying to obtain the Cosmic Cube, a powerful weapon MODOC has created which has the power to change reality itself. All one has to do is touch the Cube, and it will alter the world as its "master" desires. The war takes place on the streets of New York City, and neither opponents would care less about victims or the city being destroyed. It is up to the Avengers to stop them, aided by the Black Widow, who has returned and set the record straight about her past actions that made her seem a traitor. Whether she was telling the truth or not, the Avengers find themselves forced to work together in order to save the world. Another great continuity nod is the Hulk mentioning he remembers the Widow attacking him in the desert (see "Hulk Versus the World", where Hawkeye also attacked him, but he later befriended "Cupid" so all is forgiven). :p

To make things even more interesting, SHIELD agent Maria Hill has been promoted to director during Nick Fury's absence. She plans to force the Avengers to join SHIELD or, if they refuse, to shut the team down. When Iron Man refuses, SHIELD attacks him and the other Avengers, to show how serious they are. Despite all this, Iron Man still proves himself to be a hero, and together with the others manages to save the day (and the SHIELD Helicarrier), but Hill mentions nothing has changed and is determined to continue her plans concerning their team. Also interesting to note is that nobody knows where Nick Fury has disappeared to; probably another consequence to the ending of "The Widow's Sting", where he was last seen. Black Widow mentioned that if he really is missing, then something terrible has happened. Hopefully we'll see what this is all about soon. All we know so far is that it has something to do with the Skrulls. Speaking of absentees, Thor and Black Panther were absent for most of this episode (and once they do show up they don't do much), but that didn't bother me, and didn't stop me from enjoying the episode.

Captain America is the Avenger who gets to be in the spotlight this time, and we get not only a big fight between him and Baron Strucker, but also some great moments with him interacting with his teammates, especially with Hawkeye and the Hulk. Notice how in the beginning of the episode he is the only one who believes Hawkeye is capable of performing a near-impossible trick-shot (which he will "upgrade" and perform later during the episode). But I thought the moment Cap and Hulk shared was better. Cap has known Hulk for a while now and has come to realize what he is able to do, and has earned his respect as a hero. It's a great little moment that adds some more depth to these characters on the show. All the fight scenes seen this episode were great, with some amazing choreography, probably some of the best we've seen on this show so far ("Come the Conqueror" would be next in line in terms of fight scenes), especially the battle in the abandoned warehouse, once the Avengers arrive. Cap's fight with Von Strucker was awesome, and had an unexpected ending when both of them touch the Cosmic Cube at once. And... I'm not sure what exactly happened. :sweat: At first I thought that when both Cap and Von Strucker touched the Cube, they cancelled each others wish. That would have made sense, if it wasn't for the last scene showing Bucky opening his eyes while underwater, meaning he has survived. It could be possible that the Cube granted Cap's greatest desire, without him having to wish for anything out loud. But if it worked for Cap, it might have worked for Von Strucker as well. This might also be what Kang mentioned in his story arc, about Cap being responsible for the 'end of the world". I guess only time will tell.

So, to summarize, this episode was awesome. We get to see the end of both Hydra and AIM (at least for now; I wouldn't be surprised if they will return in future episodes) and we get some form of confirmation that Black Widow isn't a traitor. While we do get some answers, this episode also raises a few questions (most notably what exactly happened to Bucky). Can't wait to see what will happen next; this show hasn't disappointed me yet.

[Medinnus]

I loved the idea of the cosmic cube bringing Bucky back. I don't read Captain America comics, so I don't really know if this is how it happened there...file:///C:/Users/medinnus/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.pngfile:///C:/Users/medinnus/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.png

Nope - but Cap used the last erg of CC energy to restore his memories and his mind.



...but could it be possible that we'll see Winter Soldier in animated form?

I used to annoy my ex-wife by watching mysteries with her and often solving the mystery solely based on the elements the writers included, using the theory that writers rarely include things they don't plan to use later.

Based on that theory, why bother with saving Bucky if we weren't going to see the Winter Soldier at some point? :D



Or even possibly that Bucky will temporarily replace Steve Rogers as Cap, and may be the one that Kang The Conqueror was really talking about when he said Cap would be the blame of destroying the timeline? Or maybe it was just Steve's cosmic cube wish that caused what Kang was talking about ?

There are so many possibilities for that kind of thing, as historically there were several people who've worn the uniform:

* Jeff Mace/The Patriot
* William Naisland/Spirit of 1776
* John Walker/USAgent
* Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier

Now, I know its not called Captain America and the Rest of the Avengers (:D), but I hope we get to see the Invaders and/or Agent 13 of SHIELD soon!
That's an excellent point, now Cap actually has done something to alter reality.

Has he?

Time effect is a tricky concept, but Bucky not dying happened in WWII, and was decades of established fact when Captain America touched the CC - since its already established, Kang would have seen that too. :D

The English language is not built to discuss chronal effects, is it...



And oh man, I didn't even notice that Bucky had only one arm, but I checked again and you're totally right! That is pretty great.

And that's probably how it got past the censors; it wasn't made explicit, and you'd have to actually know it to see it that way!

[Vampire_King]

i agree that it should of been a two part episode
seeing as how this episode removes Hydra And A.I.M. from the scene(least for now anyways)

[Gold Guy]

To be honest, this wasn't my favorite episode. It had alot of good moments, something just felt...off I guess. The ending made for a cool cliffie though.

[Avengers]

I would just like to point out that every one who worried disney would baby this show should wtch that modak killing (?) scene, pretty intence

I really like how they did not do a cop out and somehow make it so bucky barely survived the rocket, he died and cam back to life, really dark when you think about how young he is

great episode:D and next weak ultron, I am counting the seconds

[RobBie729]

Kevin Burke and Chris Wyatt have been the writers on this plot thread all the way through the season, and they've done an excellent job of bringing it to this conclusion. The storytelling is a masterful blend of recap exposition, character moments, humor, and more subplot development. Likewise, Vinton Hueck has become one of my favorite episode directors with this thread. Well done, all!

We see here the beginning of something which can grow to resemble the Marvel comic book event "Civil War", with the new Director of SHIELD determined to make the Avengers join SHIELD, shut them down, or put them in the super-prison with the villains. Hopefully this incarnation of that theme will be executed better than the illogical, confused, boring mess that Marvel made of it.

The moment with Hawkeye and Captain America as Hawkeye prepares for his trick shot is very "Cap's Kooky Quartet" of that era of Avengers goodness (Avengers. v1 #16 to around the 40's). Hawkeye repeatedly referred to Captain America as "Old Man" or "Methusaleh" or "Cap Van Winkle" or somesuch. This is perhaps one of the best character moments of the season for me.

In other notes:

* The Black Widow isn't a traitor! And there was much rejoicing! :D

* Nick Fury has disappeared, so she has no way to prove it. Boo! :evil:

* Another nice leadership ability moment with Captain America and Hulk, exemplifying that the best way to earn trust and respect is to give it.

* Speaking of the whole Civil War craptasticness, its nice to see Iron Man acting like a hero and not a SHIELD stooge. Civil War pretty much ruined Tony Stark as a heroic character in the MU 616; fortunately, this version of Stark isn't a victim of the plotlines.

* Lukin has already been mentioned as a Russian crime boss, so I'd always suspected that we would get to see the Winter Soldier at some point!

* I am working with the assumption that Captain America didn't make a conscious wish, and that the Cosmic Cube took his greatest desire from his subconscious... does that mean that Baron Von Strucker got a subconscious wish as well? Perhaps this means the return of... the Red Skull?

what happened to Banner's/Hulk's blood sample ?

[HEATXZ]

Great episode :anime:
I like the action scenes :anime:

[Avengers]

You know what would be an awesome episode for season 2 if winter soldier comes in to take revenge on cap for leaving him to die, forced to believe that by red skull

tell me what you think

[NBM05]

Wow, I'm amazed at how much I like this show. It keeps things original while also being very faithful to comic storlines and characters. I love the serialized story telling as well. The show is so much more epic because storlines have consequences and are allowed to build over multiple episodes/the entire season. Having just watched the first two DVD's in time for these new episodes, I have to say this could become my favorite cartoon of all time (JLU and SSM have been in that spot until now). Great show. I can't wait for the next episode and i'm so glad we already know there's going to be a full second season.

[Webbed-Wonder]

I loved this episode, I just happen to favor the hugely bombastic episodes that include the Avengers going to town against everybody. :D

Hydra vs Aim vs SHIELD over the Cosmic Cube with the Avengers in the middle? How much more epic can that get? Can't wait to see Winter Soldier, will he be in any of the remaining season 1 episodes or will he be saved for season 2? I want to see more Red Skull, though. I've been wanting to see more of him since the Cap micro episodes.

[redlion]

I really enjoyed this episode. A lot of intense action, great character moments (my favorite: Cap and Hulk), a satisfying conclusion to the Widow/Hydra/A.I.M./Cosmic Cube story arc and a very nice ending. I thoroughly have enjoyed this whole series thus far.

[CyclonatorZ]

While this episode wasn't quite as good as the previous one featuring Hydra and the Black Widow (which is the best episode of the entire season IMO), it concludes the arc rather well. We get some great character moments for the avengers, particularly Hawkeye, Captain America, and Hulk, and a rather awesome cliffhanger that feeds right into Kang's warning two episodes ago. My only real problem was that Maria Hill is coming off as a real... well, you know. That said, some of the scenes seemed to be oddly quiet for taking place during a city-wide war between two rival criminal organizations. That's probably due to the animation budget being smaller this time than for, say, Come the Conquer, but it still felt a bit odd at times.

[King_of_doom]

Forgot to comment here.

I was so waiting for this episode since we see the war between Hydra and A.I.M. and finally show Black Widow being a double agent on learning the secrets that Hydra has. Like many i was hoping that Black Widow would join the Avengers when the war was over but when she mentions that Nick Fury has disappear..........that sucks, she now has to find him and all that nonsense but hopefully she will join soon. The fights where really cool and like the climatic battle between Captain America and Baron Strucker until both touch the cosmic cube and we see that Captain America's wish is to have Bucky alive and wow that was nice that they show Bucky with just one arm "Winter Soldier may show up".

Anyway awesome episode and can't wait for the next one.

[jph139]

SO amazing. I love any episode of a show where the bad guys start to go to war, and this was no exception. But you've got ALL the angles - the Avengers, HYDRA, A.I.M., S.H.I.E.L.D., and Black Widow to spice things up. Very well balanced plot, though I wish MODOK had stuck around a bit longer... but I see why they wanted to put Strucker on center stage for the finale.

Action was fantastic. Just the plain ol' fisticuffs between Cap and the Baron was very solid animation and choreography, and Ant-Man got a lot of cool action shots. Also, the whole "loyalty" argument he and Black Widow and Hawkeye were having in the middle of a fight - that was gold.

Maria Hill "turning bad" for lack of a better word threw me. I can't help feel this is all Loki's doing - kidnap Fury and put anti-Avengers Maria in charge, or just kidnap both of them and put Enchantress (disguised as Maria) as a front. Or maybe it's not. What do I know?

Ending was a great in-character twist ending, too... I figure the Cube, in this iteration, is a "your hearts desire" sort of thing. So Cap, even if he doesn't know it, has brought Bucky back from the dead... and Strucker has wished for a world ruled by HYDRA. I've been assuming this whole time that Bucky and Red Skull had actually survived, as in the comics, but maybe they DID die, and Strucker brought Skull back somehow?

I dunno how that would affect the timestream but, y'know. It's a possibility.

[Avengers]

I remember reading that cap is shoved aside in these episodes but I thought this was a very good cap-centric episode, him being my favorite sup hero I was very pleased

[King_of_doom]

Maria Hill "turning bad" for lack of a better word threw me.

I thought Maria was acting like a total B.....I have a bad feeling that she being in charge will go over her head but as we know that SHIELD always do things that they see it´s good for the world but it's bad.

[Capt. Speedbump]

I remember reading that cap is shoved aside in these episodes but I thought this was a very good cap-centric episode, him being my favorite sup hero I was very pleased

Believe me, as someone who hasn't seen the last five episodes of Season 1, it's hard to avoid potential spoilers. However, even if you hear opinions or whatever, it's always best to wait until you see the actual episodes before passing judgement.

As you now know, you may end up being very pleased!

[Vampire_King]

i was somewhat expecting the avengers to have to fight Strucker and M.O.D.O.K. at the same time

[RobBie729]

Believe me, as someone who hasn't seen the last five episodes of Season 1, it's hard to avoid potential spoilers. However, even if you hear opinions or whatever, it's always best to wait until you see the actual episodes before passing judgement.

As you now know, you may end up being very pleased!

That's so true

[Manhunter]

One of my favorite bits of dialogue:

Wasp: Isn't it funny how people are always afraid of you? I bet she really thought you'd eat her.

Hulk: I would.

Wasp: (nervous laughter)

[Capt. Speedbump]

One of my favorite bits of dialogue:

Wasp: Isn't it funny how people are always afraid of you? I bet she really thought you'd eat her.

Hulk: I would.

Wasp: (nervous laughter)

Don't ever show Wasp Ultimatum #2!

[Dudley]

I really enjoyed this episode. Nice to see Black Widow was a double agent (no real surprise), Cap's pep talk with the Hulk was real sweet. And the fight over the Cosmic Cube was pretty badass.

I can't for the life of me understand how human science could create the Cosmic Cube, though. With the power it wields, that seems something an alien would make. Or magic, even.

[Capt. Speedbump]

I really enjoyed this episode. Nice to see Black Widow was a double agent (no real surprise), Cap's pep talk with the Hulk was real sweet. And the fight over the Cosmic Cube was pretty badass.

I can't for the life of me understand how human science could create the Cosmic Cube, though. With the power it wields, that seems something an alien would make. Or magic, even.

Your comment about an alien is not too far off according to this page:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Cosmic_Cube

Apparently the Cube is merely a vessel to hold energy derived from an altenate dimension. Science and A.I.M. created the vessel, but the actual "energy" used to power it is cosmic in nature.

Or something like that...

[90'sCartoonMan]

That was a pretty fantastic episode. Lots of payoff from plots set up earlier, great action (loved Hank riding Hawkeye's arrow) and character moments (Cap complimenting Hulk, Hawkeye understanding Widow's undercover stuff, Iron Man not sinking to Hill's level, etc).

I dig the Fury missing plotline, but the end of the episode is even better, with Bucky coming back and a possible wish Strucker made.


That...Really should have been a two-parter!

Seriously. Anything that starts with an EMP going off over NYC--let alone multiple EMPs--should be given the most epic treatment available. Add to that the fact that this episode was meant to tie up all the AIM and Hydra storylines... And the Black Widow storyarc... And to start a new storyarc with Fury missing and Hill taking charge... There was more than enough here to develop it into a two-parter.

I agree too, some of the stuff was rushed. We didn't even get to see Thor and the Panther join Iron Man and Wasp in helping defend the helicarrier. Also, it would've been nice to see some civilians scared of everything that's going on, Cap telling Hulk that they're more scared of Hydra than him, and encouraging Hulk to help them because it's the right thing to do.


You know what would be an awesome episode for season 2 if winter soldier comes in to take revenge on cap for leaving him to die, forced to believe that by red skull

If they're going to pick and choose from the original story, I could see Bucky being brainwashed into hating Cap.


I can't for the life of me understand how human science could create the Cosmic Cube, though. With the power it wields, that seems something an alien would make. Or magic, even.

Magic, eh? What's that old expression? Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I still don't understand how smartphones can exist.

[macattack]

One of my favorite bits of dialogue:

Wasp: Isn't it funny how people are always afraid of you? I bet she really thought you'd eat her.

Hulk: I would.

Wasp: (nervous laughter)

That's a reference to the Ultimate Universe if there ever was one. The Hulk actually does eat people on occasion in that universe.

The way this episode is handled makes the main flaw of the show more glaring: EVERYTHING is going to end the world, and there's no real subtlety in it either. It's 100% bombast and I think that gets old after a while.

That being said, this episode was good if a bit rushed in spots. I do agree that this needed two parts to end the storyline. Black Widow being a double agent needed a bit more buildup instead of suddenly revealing it.

That being said, rush-ness and leaps of logic aside this episode was fun.

[Munkiman]

That's a reference to the Ultimate Universe if there ever was one. The Hulk actually does eat people on occasion in that universe.

The way this episode is handled makes the main flaw of the show more glaring: EVERYTHING is going to end the world, and there's no real subtlety in it either. It's 100% bombast and I think that gets old after a while.

That being said, this episode was good if a bit rushed in spots. I do agree that this needed two parts to end the storyline. Black Widow being a double agent needed a bit more buildup instead of suddenly revealing it.

That being said, rush-ness and leaps of logic aside this episode was fun.
What would you prefer? If the fight with Mandrill had been expanded to half an hour?

The Avengers exists to take on threats the individual members can't take on alone, and when you have individual members like Thor, Cap, Iron Man and Hulk, that means the threats need to be suitably huge. When HYDRA was attacking the U.N., Iron Man was able to handle it on his own - obviously you'd need something a lot bigger than that to justify the use of an entire elite superhero team.

[Capt. Speedbump]

That being said, this episode was good if a bit rushed in spots. I do agree that this needed two parts to end the storyline. Black Widow being a double agent needed a bit more buildup instead of suddenly revealing it.

Maybe, if you missed Episode 19, which as far as I'm concerned was the buildup to Widow being a double agent:

* Fury kept on telling Hawkeye to let him (Fury) handle the Widow.

* Natasha visiting Hawkeye in his cell, clearly wanting to say something but choosing not to.

* Oh yeah, there was that whole "save Hawkeye from being killed by Strucker" part.

When the Widow revealed she was a spy for Fury at the start of Episode 21, was anyone actually surprised?

[redlion]

What would you prefer? If the fight with Mandrill had been expanded to half an hour?

The Avengers exists to take on threats the individual members can't take on alone, and when you have individual members like Thor, Cap, Iron Man and Hulk, that means the threats need to be suitably huge. When HYDRA was attacking the U.N., Iron Man was able to handle it on his own - obviously you'd need something a lot bigger than that to justify the use of an entire elite superhero team.

I totally agree with this. I think Chris Yost has already stated that one of the mandates when first creating the show was that the threats had to be huge and world ending(paraphrasing). I think it's an effective way of justifying the reason for such a diverse team to have to work together in the first place. It's classic Avengers, they couldn't get along with one another otherwise. In the episode "Masters Of Evil", Hawkeye pointed out succinctly why a team such as the Avengers shouldn't work at all, yet they always seem to mesh together to overcome the threat.

[macattack]

What would you prefer? If the fight with Mandrill had been expanded to half an hour?

The Avengers exists to take on threats the individual members can't take on alone, and when you have individual members like Thor, Cap, Iron Man and Hulk, that means the threats need to be suitably huge. When HYDRA was attacking the U.N., Iron Man was able to handle it on his own - obviously you'd need something a lot bigger than that to justify the use of an entire elite superhero team.

To quote Emperor Palpatine in Robot Chicken: "Whoa, whoa, whoa."

What I meant is that by having the Avengers saving the world every episode, it cheapens the effect of saving the world. It makes saving the world look like a walk in the park or an everyday occurrence. Whatever happened to saving a city or a country?

I also think there's been some moments of major overpowering, like with the example of Iron Man defeating HYDRA at the UN. There's no way in hell he should be capable of that, not by himself. Maybe him and War Machine together I could maybe buy that, but not Iron Man by himself.

I just think Avengers is bringing out the "save the world" plots too much, too often. Though if the next season is going to be "cosmic" I guess there is a place to go from saving the world, like "saving the galaxy" or "saving the universe", heh.

Believe it or not I liked the slower-paced, smaller-scale episodes from earlier like "Hulk Vs. The World", "Panther's Quest", and "459" more than the recent episodes like the Kang trilogy and this one. But I'm weird that way.

[Munkiman]

To quote Emperor Palpatine in Robot Chicken: "Whoa, whoa, whoa."

What I meant is that by having the Avengers saving the world every episode, it cheapens the effect of saving the world. It makes saving the world look like a walk in the park or an everyday occurrence. Whatever happened to saving a city or a country?
I can see your point, but I feel like the threats tend to be diverse enough that it doesn't feel like they're easily prepared for any global threat, for instance just because they took down Graviton (who was in fact more of a city-level threat, though with potential for larger devastation), that didn't help them against the transforming radiation of "Gamma World," or the space robot from "459." The big threats take different forms. In "Come the Conqueror," the Avengers only stopped the invasion of NYC, then stopped the attack on the global level at its source in "Kang Dynasty." And it never seems like a walk in the park IMO, they always win but each time is so different that they can't just use the same tried-and-true "world-saving" tactic.


I also think there's been some moments of major overpowering, like with the example of Iron Man defeating HYDRA at the UN. There's no way in hell he should be capable of that, not by himself. Maybe him and War Machine together I could maybe buy that, but not Iron Man by himself.
Well, it wasn't all of HYDRA, it was one skull-walker thing (whatever those are called) and a squad of footsoldiers and Dreadnoughts. And admittedly they were supposed to get captured so Grim Reaper could break Strucker out of the Vault, so maybe that was a bad example. But it wasn't like they weren't going to kill Iron Man if they had the chance, they only needed to be captured by SHIELD. I thought "Iron Man is Born" did a great job of showing how Iron Man was able to take down the HYDRA squad.


Believe it or not I liked the slower-paced, smaller-scale episodes from earlier like "Hulk Vs. The World", "Panther's Quest", and "459" more than the recent episodes like the Kang trilogy and this one. But I'm weird that way.
"Hulk vs. the World" doesn't have the Avengers in it, though. While I'll definitely give you "Panther's Quest" as a country-level threat only (with, again, potential to be a global problem if HYDRA got its hands on vibranium supplies), "459" featured a bomb that was going to destroy the Earth, so that was absolutely a "save the world" one.

[Crash]

I disagree, I think that the episode gave the perfect amount of time to each plot point, it really was very well-paced. In fact, pacing hasn't been nearly as much of a problem in the last bunch of episodes as it was early on, which I'm glad about.


The pacing might have been okay if it hadn't been for the SHIELD subplot. trying to throw in a whole new subplot in the midst of everything else...Sort of cheapened that subplot. Made it feel really rushed and way too pat.

Speaking of that subplot, how did someone as dumb as Hill become second-in-command of SHIELD? In a crises where where two criminal/terrorist organizations are fighting thier way through New York City--one of which, lets not forget, is the organization that started WWII in this setting--her first instinct is to attack....the Avengers. Even granting that they are vigilanties and that vigilanties are bad as a general principle...The Avengers have saved the world mutliple times already, once at the direct behest of SHIELD, (Gamma World) and even handed SHIELD a captures starship from the future! And Hill would rather fight these guys than the guys who started WWII? Hill is a moron. She's not fit to lead a marching band, much less a military organization. Give SHIELD to Quartermain, he at least seems to be competant and have his priorities in order. Heck, give SHIELD to random soldier #3 or Fury's robot body-double thing. Anyone would be better than Hill...

Although, if that plotline leads to Gyrich being appointed to the Avengers, then I'd be happy with it.

Not really surprised to see Window revealed as a double agent. Disapointed, but not surprised. After she watched Hawkeye almost die in the first part of 'Widow's Sting' they had me so convinced that she was actually a bad gal. And that impressed me as a very gutsy development. This, not so much...

And just to end on a positive note--because I really did enjoy the episode, there wer flashes of greatness in it, I just wish it had been cleaner--I liked what they did with Hulk this episode. Not so much the eating quip, but his quip about how Ant-Man "is doing it wrong" if he doesn't enjoy fighting. That, and at the opening how he was only there to see Hawkeye pick a fight.... The writers here really found the right way to portray a monster like him as a hero--while keeping him as a monster!

[Munkiman]

I agree that Maria Hill is an idiot but I think I can play devil's advocate and see how she arrived at her decisions. She sees the Avengers not just as vigilantes, but as loose cannons. Sure, they've saved the world a bunch of times, but what happens if they decide on using all that power, the power that was enough to take down Graviton, the Leader, Kang - guys SHIELD could barely touch - and use it for their own personal gain? Hill is looking at the bigger picture here. AIM and HYDRA have been around forever and SHIELD was dealing with them fine, as far as she was concerned. The supervillains had been locked up before the breakout and can be again. The Avengers, on the other hand, are roaming free, unsupervised and uncontrolled. They're more of an ever-present threat than HYDRA, because they're the ones who beat HYDRA.

It's like in the preview that came out today for FF #4, the comic book. Due to certain plot reasons, a bunch of the Fantastic Four's greatest enemies are in the Baxter Building conferring with Reed on how to deal with something that threatens both the FF and the villains. Spider-Man is talking to the Invisible Woman outside.

SPIDER-MAN: "So, I've got to ask... how is it you're so cool with everything that's going on? I mean, did you see who all went in that room with Reed?"

INVISIBLE WOMAN: "Let's see... I saw you show up with the Mad Thinker. I brought the Wizard and his A.I.M. lieutenants. I also saw Diablo and the High Evolutionary... oh, and who could forget one Victor Von Doom. Do you know what they all have in common? Through the years, I've beaten every one of them. Over and over. Badly. So you tell me... do you think I should be afraid of them? Or should they be afraid of me?"

In addition to being a badass moment, it points out that the heroes are actually the more dangerous ones. After all, they win more often. If they were to turn on the world, who could stop them? The villains they always defeat? The law enforcement they always upstage? Maria Hill is cynical and paranoid. She doesn't think about what the Avengers have done in the past, she thinks about what they have the power to do in the future. And she wants to control that while she still can.

However, I agree that it was idiotic of her to bring this up while AIM and HYDRA were tearing New York apart.

[Manhunter]

I agree that Maria Hill is an idiot but I think I can play devil's advocate and see how she arrived at her decisions. She sees the Avengers not just as vigilantes, but as loose cannons. Sure, they've saved the world a bunch of times, but what happens if they decide on using all that power, the power that was enough to take down Graviton, the Leader, Kang - guys SHIELD could barely touch - and use it for their own personal gain? Hill is looking at the bigger picture here. AIM and HYDRA have been around forever and SHIELD was dealing with them fine, as far as she was concerned. The supervillains had been locked up before the breakout and can be again. The Avengers, on the other hand, are roaming free, unsupervised and uncontrolled. They're more of an ever-present threat than HYDRA, because they're the ones who beat HYDRA.

It's like in the preview that came out today for FF #4, the comic book. Due to certain plot reasons, a bunch of the Fantastic Four's greatest enemies are in the Baxter Building conferring with Reed on how to deal with something that threatens both the FF and the villains. Spider-Man is talking to the Invisible Woman outside.

SPIDER-MAN: "So, I've got to ask... how is it you're so cool with everything that's going on? I mean, did you see who all went in that room with Reed?"

INVISIBLE WOMAN: "Let's see... I saw you show up with the Mad Thinker. I brought the Wizard and his A.I.M. lieutenants. I also saw Diablo and the High Evolutionary... oh, and who could forget one Victor Von Doom. Do you know what they all have in common? Through the years, I've beaten every one of them. Over and over. Badly. So you tell me... do you think I should be afraid of them? Or should they be afraid of me?"

In addition to being a badass moment, it points out that the heroes are actually the more dangerous ones. After all, they win more often. If they were to turn on the world, who could stop them? The villains they always defeat? The law enforcement they always upstage? Maria Hill is cynical and paranoid. She doesn't think about what the Avengers have done in the past, she thinks about what they have the power to do in the future. And she wants to control that while she still can.

However, I agree that it was idiotic of her to bring this up while AIM and HYDRA were tearing New York apart.

To paraphrase Tony Stark, Hill is right about joining SHIELD being their only option...but she's being a real jerk about it.

[Medinnus]

Speaking of that subplot, how did someone as dumb as Hill become second-in-command of SHIELD?

*chuckles* I see you've never been in the military or part of law enforcement.

I mean no disrespect to those fine organizations, btw - but really, its quite simple.

Fury was in command, and Hill made herself useful as his second; one might almost say "indispensable". The problem comes when Fury suddenly vanishes and that more-than-capable Second is in the command hierarchy.

With an orderly transition, Fury could have appointed Jimmy Woo, Clay Quartermain, or any one of his field commanders; but he vanished, and all of a sudden you get whose next in line as acting Director at the beginning of an emergency,

In times of peace she'd never be confirmed in the job by whoever has appointive power (presumably the President, with Senate confirmation), but SHIELD is in the middle of one crisis after another - so that, plus politics (that whole Senate confirmation thing), and the acting Director might be Acting for some time. And if the Avengers hand her victories, she could easily spin the briefings and get confirmed.

THAT is how idiots get to rise high in organizations.

[JTMarsh]

Ant-Man riding the arrow had a very "Dr. Strangelove" quality to it. :D

[Azrayel]

I liked it, it wasa really intense episode. I wonder if the plot will turn out like Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 where Iron Man and Captian America will be on sperate sides alongwiththe other superheroes. Might be intresting, might not.

I don't usually check the news but does Season 2 start this coming sunday or when?

[Avengers]

I liked it, it wasa really intense episode. I wonder if the plot will turn out like Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 where Iron Man and Captian America will be on sperate sides alongwiththe other superheroes. Might be intresting, might not.

I don't usually check the news but does Season 2 start this coming sunday or when?

Season 1 is still going, no word on season 2 but check Medinnus' site for the season 2 info

[Mr. Hypocrite]

Speaking of that subplot, how did someone as dumb as Hill become second-in-command of SHIELD?

That's a good question.


I agree that Maria Hill is an idiot but I think I can play devil's advocate and see how she arrived at her decisions. She sees the Avengers not just as vigilantes, but as loose cannons. Sure, they've saved the world a bunch of times, but what happens if they decide on using all that power, the power that was enough to take down Graviton, the Leader, Kang - guys SHIELD could barely touch - and use it for their own personal gain? Hill is looking at the bigger picture here. AIM and HYDRA have been around forever and SHIELD was dealing with them fine, as far as she was concerned. The supervillains had been locked up before the breakout and can be again. The Avengers, on the other hand, are roaming free, unsupervised and uncontrolled. They're more of an ever-present threat than HYDRA, because they're the ones who beat HYDRA.

It's like in the preview that came out today for FF #4, the comic book. Due to certain plot reasons, a bunch of the Fantastic Four's greatest enemies are in the Baxter Building conferring with Reed on how to deal with something that threatens both the FF and the villains. Spider-Man is talking to the Invisible Woman outside.

SPIDER-MAN: "So, I've got to ask... how is it you're so cool with everything that's going on? I mean, did you see who all went in that room with Reed?"

INVISIBLE WOMAN: "Let's see... I saw you show up with the Mad Thinker. I brought the Wizard and his A.I.M. lieutenants. I also saw Diablo and the High Evolutionary... oh, and who could forget one Victor Von Doom. Do you know what they all have in common? Through the years, I've beaten every one of them. Over and over. Badly. So you tell me... do you think I should be afraid of them? Or should they be afraid of me?"

In addition to being a badass moment, it points out that the heroes are actually the more dangerous ones. After all, they win more often. If they were to turn on the world, who could stop them? The villains they always defeat? The law enforcement they always upstage? Maria Hill is cynical and paranoid. She doesn't think about what the Avengers have done in the past, she thinks about what they have the power to do in the future. And she wants to control that while she still can.

However, I agree that it was idiotic of her to bring this up while AIM and HYDRA were tearing New York apart.

And that is a good answer.


but his quip about how Ant-Man "is doing it wrong" if he doesn't enjoy fighting.

I've seen the episodes that follow this, and that joke is as Tvtropes would say Harsher in Hindsight.

On a completely different note, we know that Cap unconsciously wished Bucky back to life when he touched the cube. That means that the cube may not grant a conscious wish. So does this mean that rather than granting his immediate wish, the Cube granted an unconscious wish to Strucker as well?:ack:

Cause that would likely be bad. Then again, it's just as likely that despite looking like they touched it at the same time, Cap was a few seconds quicker, and since he had no immediate wish, it just looked deeper and found something else (the Bucky revival). For the sake of the world, we'd best hope so.

[JTMarsh]

I think "Iron Man Is Born!" made it pretty clear that Maria Hill isn't very good at picking and choosing her battles. Sometimes the big picture has to take a back seat to the immediate one.

It'll be interesting to see how Yost and co handle the return of Bucky.

[Medinnus]

I think "Iron Man Is Born!" made it pretty clear that Maria Hill isn't very good at picking and choosing her battles. Sometimes the big picture has to take a back seat to the immediate one.

And that she has a grudge against Iron Man and his type of vigilante, and resents them being outside her chain of command.

[supergirl's pal]

This episode is a microcosm of what this show is all about:
pure awesomeness!

I loved the big fight over the Cosmic Cube in the warehouse where every Avenger came out of nowhere to deliver a telling blow.

Did anyone notice that Black Widow lost her Russian accent? It would make sense for her to speak without it so she can hide out in the shadows better.

Why does Maria Hill need a jetpack to fly when a simple broom will do?

[TheVileOne]

So now we know why Captain America's actions have inadvertently destroyed time itself.

Think about it. This episode was the tell of why Captain America has DOOMED the world and time and space itself.

[Avengers]

So now we know why Captain America's actions have inadvertently destroyed time itself.

Think about it. This episode was the tell of why Captain America has DOOMED the world and time and space itself.

This is probably the reason time is collapsing, but not the reason he betrayed them

[Medinnus]

So now we know why Captain America's actions have inadvertently destroyed time itself.

Think about it. This episode was the tell of why Captain America has DOOMED the world and time and space itself.

I don't see it. Explain it to me.

[Capt. Speedbump]

I don't see it. Explain it to me.

It hasn't been explained to be the case in the series, but I believe this is the general fan theory (and it is a theory at this point):

Kang said Captain America caused Kang's timeline to be eliminated because Captain America didn't belong alive in the 21st century. We know that Cap didn't travel through time... he was frozen in 1945, and thawed out recently, thus no time travel or bending of reality took place.

However, Cap inadvertently caused Bucky to be alive through the reality warping of the Cosmic Cube. It may well be Bucky's being alive in the 21st century that somehow caused Kang's timeline to be eliminated.

Once again, this is all fan speculation, and there are still uncertianties. Since Kang is slated to appear again in Season 2, we'll probably find out for sure then.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

So now we know why Captain America's actions have inadvertently destroyed time itself.

Think about it. This episode was the tell of why Captain America has DOOMED the world and time and space itself.

I said that already.


;)

[Dudley]

It hasn't been explained to be the case in the series, but I believe this is the general fan theory (and it is a theory at this point):

Kang said Captain America caused Kang's timeline to be eliminated because Captain America didn't belong alive in the 21st century. We know that Cap didn't travel through time... he was frozen in 1945, and thawed out recently, thus no time travel or bending of reality took place.

However, Cap inadvertently caused Bucky to be alive through the reality warping of the Cosmic Cube. It may well be Bucky's being alive in the 21st century that somehow caused Kang's timeline to be eliminated.

Once again, this is all fan speculation, and there are still uncertianties. Since Kang is slated to appear again in Season 2, we'll probably find out for sure then.


Oh my god.
That makes perfect sense.

It always bothered me how Captain America being dispalced by time through suspended animation caused more damage than a space time anomaly. This fan theory is more sound and I hope its brought up in the second season.

[Medinnus]

I remain skeptical, but I suppose we'll find out. Kang's interference in the timestream has already thrown a large wrench into the timestream, so I'd be wary of any conclusions based on event all by itself, and not a logical causual chain - and we don't have enough data to build one.

Yet.

[suss2it]

I really liked Captain America's faith in his teammates in this episode. His confidence that Hawkeye could make that impossible shot, and him reassuring Hulk that he's no monster. I feel as though he'd be the superior leader rather than Iron Man, and I hope he eventually usurps him.

It was nice to see Black Widow again, however I already knew the outcome as well as the kiss she'd share with Hawkeye because the sneak peaks on the DVD releases spoiled it for me. I did think she would be joining the Avengers though, and I'm disappointed that she hasn't. The team's a huge sausage fest and could really use more female Avengers.

Hawkeye proved how awesome his archery skills are in this episode (however his fashion sense is still appalling) with shooting Giant-Man across town, I was also expecting them to show that he hit the apple earlier after the blackout.

It's a shame MODOC was taking down in this episode, I would've love to see some more of that crazy guy. However there's always a chance that he'll escape his imprisonment.

I'm also excited to see where the subplot with Bucky ends up going, along with a lot of you I'm betting that Baron Von Strucker either knowingly or unknowingly brought back Red Skull.


Cool episode -- although there were some moments of inconsistency with the animation that were pretty bad (watch for Iron Man's left shoulder expand to a huge pivot ball in one scene then shrink back to normal in the next).Yeah, I noticed that too, it was very sloppy of them.



I really like how they did not do a cop out and somehow make it so bucky barely survived the rocket, he died and cam back to life, really dark when you think about how young he isActually I don't think Bucky came back to life, I think he was transported to the present right before the explosion consumed him. I think his body being bruised and him lacking an arm wouldn't have happened had he simply been brought back from the dead.


You know what would be an awesome episode for season 2 if winter soldier comes in to take revenge on cap for leaving him to die, forced to believe that by red skull

tell me what you thinkThat would really be painful for Cap, and I believe it would be dramatic irony, since Bucky knowingly sacrificed his life to save Cap's.



The way this episode is handled makes the main flaw of the show more glaring: EVERYTHING is going to end the world, and there's no real subtlety in it either. It's 100% bombast and I think that gets old after a while. They're Earth's Mightiest Heroes, they're suppose to handle planet-level threats.




Speaking of that subplot, how did someone as dumb as Hill become second-in-command of SHIELD? In a crises where where two criminal/terrorist organizations are fighting thier way through New York City--one of which, lets not forget, is the organization that started WWII in this setting--her first instinct is to attack....the Avengers. Even granting that they are vigilanties and that vigilanties are bad as a general principle...The Avengers have saved the world mutliple times already, once at the direct behest of SHIELD, (Gamma World) and even handed SHIELD a captures starship from the future! And Hill would rather fight these guys than the guys who started WWII? Hill is a moron. She's not fit to lead a marching band, much less a military organization. Give SHIELD to Quartermain, he at least seems to be competant and have his priorities in order. Heck, give SHIELD to random soldier #3 or Fury's robot body-double thing. Anyone would be better than Hill...This, so much this. I couldn't get over how dumb Hill came off in this episode. Okay you want the Avengers to register and join SHIELD, and you're going to go after that more aggressively now that Fury is gone and you're in charge. Fine. But do you really have to do that in the middle of two terrorist groups waging war on each other using New York as the battle ground? Instead of wasting ammo and goons on fighting the Avengers (who you know are here to help!), why not take down the people that are actively killing each other and most likely civilians? Hopefully Black Widow finds the glorious Fury soon so he can return and fire this fool for making SHIELD look so inept.

However, nobody but nobody kidnaps Nick Fury, and I'm guessing he left on his own because he can no longer trusts those around him, since they very well could be Skrulls, so he's out there forming a team to kick the Skrulls collective asses back to outer space.

[TheVileOne]

Kang was not completely correct. The anomaly is not actually Captain America. Captain America however was the catalyst. Captain America has literally altered the fabric of time and space through his actions. His actions were not malicious or mean-spirited he simply wished for his best friend to live.

Cap's survival was a natural part of the timeline. Cap's actions however have literally altered reality. So this is why Cap's actions are destroying Kang's time and why it was traced to Cap. Kang was confused when he saw that Cap went away in the 1940's but saw he was still alive in the 21st century.

It was not intentional but Cap has now doomed the earth and time itself.

[Medinnus]

Cap's survival was a natural part of the timeline. Cap's actions however have literally altered reality.

You could just as easily argue that because of the causual loop, that from a post-21 century perspective, that Captain America changed nothing; Bucky survived because of the Cosmic Cube, but since Cap always did that, it always has manifested that way; he didn't change things at all.

Timeline (Not To Scale):

* Galactus tells the first "Your Momma!" joke, and is displeased when nobody gets it.
* Earth is Created
* Bucky is saved via CC energy..
* Captain America becomes Capsicle
* CA defrosts
* CA unwittingly uses the CC to save Bucky
* CA does something else to change the outcome of the Kree/Skrull War

Viewing any point from any other point in the timeline, Bucky is still saved.

Final proof - if we are past the place where the CA Destroys Everything has occurred, Kang and his men should vanish - whatever Kang needs to do to save his own timeline failed, and thus his timeline is no longer save-able.

I think it far more likely that:

* We have not yet seen the Event yet.
* Kang is mistaken - its not Captain America who performs the deed that affects the Kree/Skrull War, but rather the Skrull Imposter who takes CA's place just before the end of Season One.

[Crash]

I agree that Maria Hill is an idiot but I think I can play devil's advocate and see how she arrived at her decisions. She sees the Avengers not just as vigilantes, but as loose cannons. Sure, they've saved the world a bunch of times, but what happens if they decide on using all that power, the power that was enough to take down Graviton, the Leader, Kang - guys SHIELD could barely touch - and use it for their own personal gain? Hill is looking at the bigger picture here. AIM and HYDRA have been around forever and SHIELD was dealing with them fine, as far as she was concerned. The supervillains had been locked up before the breakout and can be again. The Avengers, on the other hand, are roaming free, unsupervised and uncontrolled. They're more of an ever-present threat than HYDRA, because they're the ones who beat HYDRA.

....

Maria Hill is cynical and paranoid. She doesn't think about what the Avengers have done in the past, she thinks about what they have the power to do in the future. And she wants to control that while she still can.

However, I agree that it was idiotic of her to bring this up while AIM and HYDRA were tearing New York apart.


You sort of missed my point there. (suss2it got it, though) I'm willing to grant that Hill could be justified in her mis-trust of the Avngers. But the simple fact that she decided to pick a fight with them while AIM and Hydra were running loose is--in and of itself--proof of her incompetance.

Just to reiterate, her options were to send her forces against:

a) AIM--a criminal organization that was actively causing massive collateral damage, setting off EMPs and creating localized black holes

b) Hydra--a terrorist/rouge state that has laid waste to an entire continent (World War II) and has attacked NYC on multiple occassions.

c) the Avengers--who annoy her, and may, someday, do bad things.

And she chose to bring the full weight of herself and the SHIELD Helicarrier to bear against option c. Assuming that the rest would just sort itself out with the help of a handfull of SHIELD figher-planes....

If there were justice, she would indeed take her complaint straight to the president...And he would fire her. But then, that would preclude an annoying Avengers-verses-the-control-freak-government subplot somewhere down the line...



* Galactus tells the first "Your Momma!" joke, and is displeased when nobody gets it.

He told it to the Watcher. But the Watcher only watches. He does not interfere with events, not even to laugh. :p

[TheVileOne]

You could just as easily argue that because of the causual loop, that from a post-21 century perspective, that Captain America changed nothing; Bucky survived because of the Cosmic Cube, but since Cap always did that, it always has manifested that way; he didn't change things at all.

Timeline (Not To Scale):

* Galactus tells the first "Your Momma!" joke, and is displeased when nobody gets it.
* Earth is Created
* Bucky is saved via CC energy..
* Captain America becomes Capsicle
* CA defrosts
* CA unwittingly uses the CC to save Bucky
* CA does something else to change the outcome of the Kree/Skrull War

Viewing any point from any other point in the timeline, Bucky is still saved.

Final proof - if we are past the place where the CA Destroys Everything has occurred, Kang and his men should vanish - whatever Kang needs to do to save his own timeline failed, and thus his timeline is no longer save-able.

I think it far more likely that:

* We have not yet seen the Event yet.
* Kang is mistaken - its not Captain America who performs the deed that affects the Kree/Skrull War, but rather the Skrull Imposter who takes CA's place just before the end of Season One.


OK now that's all very possible, but at the same time, keep in mind that Kang is coming from a timeline where the event has already occurred. You can say Cap was always meant to use the cosmic cube, however the event is going to really occur anyway. Kang has gone back to try and change it. Feasibly, the only explanation for an action to cause time to later collapse would likely be from the catalyst of Cap's utilization of a device that literally changes the fabric of reality. The cube has now done that. Now we can argue that this was meant to happen because of the casual time loop. However, if we say that I think we can also say it is the "casual time loop" where time is ultimately going to collapse thousands of years later in Kang's time. And we can say the same thing about the other spoiler boxed theory as well.

But the fact of the matter is this. The cosmic cube is a device that can alter and change reality. Cap touched it and now time, reality, and space has been altered. It was not intentional but what is done is done. We do not know the extent of what this action will mean fully, however now that the fabric of reality has been torn it arguable could be starting a snowball affect that will eventually reach Kang's time.

Either way, Captain America through his purity has doomed us all. Thanks for nothing Cap :mad: .

[Medinnus]

OK now that's all very possible, but at the same time, keep in mind that Kang is coming from a timeline where the event has already occurred.

No, it hasn't - that was the point. Kang needs to prevent this event from happening, to preserve his own timeline. That his timeline has faded is evidence that his efforts to stop the event - one that allows him to become a brutal, heartless conquerer of humankind in the future (like, we're supposed to want to preserve that timeline?) - fails.

Once he's detached from his own timeline, he's not eliminated - perhaps because he has become his own paradox.

We're taking the word of a conquerer - not a historian - with a vested interest in preserving a timeline where he's a dictator - that something Cap does burns Earth to a cinder during the Kree-Skrull War. I find it much more likely that the event is something precipitated by someone or something else, and that Captain America's actions might indeed prevent Kang from winning his dictatorship, but not because Earth is burned out.

Timelines branch from whatever point the action is taken. If Kang wanted to really do damage, why not go back and take iceberg Cap and toss him into the sun before the Avengers find him?



But the fact of the matter is this. The cosmic cube is a device that can alter and change reality. Cap touched it and now time, reality, and space has been altered.


Not from Kang's perspective in the future. Kang looks back on the past, in which the event has already happened. Note that Kang doesn't notice Bucky's survival, or the CC enery manifest - it could very well have done so, but Kang was too focused on Cap becoming an icicle to see it.

Kang is guessing. He has no certain knowledge - he just believes he does, probably because his machines perhaps indicated the CC energy moving backward in the timestream. He sees that, sees Captain America in an icecube, and assumes causation with no evidence.


Either way, Captain America through his purity has doomed us all. Thanks for nothing Cap :mad: .

Your argument falls apart. You're arguing "It was a big event, and doomed us all!" without any actual evidence. Saying it is so does not make it so - not for you, and not for Kang! :D

[TheVileOne]

You have to look at the big picture. It is more than just burning the earth to cinders. Something has happened and is causing time to fall apart thousands of years later. That obviously is the mucking of reality by Cap using the cosmic cube.

[Medinnus]

You have to look at the big picture. It is more than just burning the earth to cinders. Something has happened and is causing time to fall apart thousands of years later. That obviously is the mucking of reality by Cap using the cosmic cube.

And your basis for saying that is...?

For all we know, alternate timelines unravel and fade every day, to one degree or another. The Kree decide that Earth is more valuable as free allies? All the timelines that are formed by Earth becoming Cinderland fade.

The difference is that Kang can sail the time streams. So, because he escapes his collapsing timeline by fleeing into the past, we know that it happened to him. All the other myriad possibilities unravel unheralded; the one creating when Kang went further back and killed Steve Rogers before he became Captain America, or when he was a lost popsicle. Is there significance in that Kang went back to the time he did, and not another time?

What you see as significant may not have any significance at all.

[TheVileOne]

The basis is that Cap's pure and kind wish has caused reality to shift and has doomed the time-space continuum. Things will never be the same again and reality will fall apart due to Cap's meddling where mortals should not have meddled.

[Capt. Speedbump]

The basis is that Cap's pure and kind wish has caused reality to shift and has doomed the time-space continuum. Things will never be the same again and reality will fall apart due to Cap's meddling where mortals should not have meddled.

You're kinda making it sound like Cap purposefully used the Cube to do what he did. I think the episode clearly shows that Cap did not actually attempt to deliberately use the Cube himself, but that the Cube may have acted upon Cap's subconscious. Captain America (or Baron Strucker, or any of the Avengers for that matter) didn't seem like he was aware the Cube had in fact done anything.

[Medinnus]

The basis is that Cap's pure and kind wish has caused reality to shift...

This is fact.


...and has doomed the time-space continuum.

Sheer conjecture/opinion. No supporting facts.


Things will never be the same again and reality will fall apart due to Cap's meddling where mortals should not have meddled.

A conclusion unsupported by a single fact.

Correlation does not equal causation.

[dmxx116]

The Black Widow needs the Avengers help to stop Hydra and AIM from tearing each other up for over the Cosmic Cube:

http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/a/50/4e457fff6833e.jpg

http://marvel.com/videos/watch/1966/the_avengers_emh_2010_season_1-_ep_21