Marvel Animation curse?

[honorableninja]

is it me or does marvel amation have trouble these days keeping thier television progamming on the air.

starting with the mtv spider-man show almost of all of marvel tv programs have been pulled off the air shows like SSM and wolverine and the x-men which could have been as great or surpassed thier nineites counterparts and i probably the only one who thought the black pathner wasn't all that bad.

so i do feel worry about the new brillant avengers progam and well as ulimate spider man that they too might not live to see greatness and gods only know how long this marvel anime thing will last.

people cliam iron man amored adventures will run it course if season 2 ever see the air and i personally have lost intrest in the super hero squad.

so far to me the only progam of marvel that has truly run it coruse was x-men evoultion while one more season would have been good the four seasons we had ran the full spectum

so do anyone of you agree with me is my thought on a curse or as i just blowing smoke and do you think marvel will even again see the sucess in did in the 90s when it comes to animated television?

[Medinnus]

so do anyone of you agree with me is my thought on a curse or as i just blowing smoke and do you think marvel will even again see the sucess in did in the 90s when it comes to animated television?

You're just blowing smoke, IMO. Business reasons, resource allocations, and brand building don't amount to a hill of beans, as far as a curse goes.

[Wonderwall]

Marvel has had some bumps in the road and bad luck a couple times when it comes to shows but I wouldn't call it a curse. They consistently have had cartoons on since the early 90s. Avengers I don't think is any trouble and USM it's way too early to start worrying there. Also with news that IM: AA is coming back( that was official right?:sweat:) there isn't any reason to be worrying at the moment.

[AlgeaX]

So i do feel worry about the new brillant avengers progam and well as ulimate spider man that they too might not live to see greatness and gods only know how long this marvel anime thing will last.

Season 2 of Avenger: Earth's MIghtiest Heroes was greenlit long before the show even started airing. As we speak, it's already deep in post-production. Worst case senario, A:EMH is still garunteed at least 52 episodes. Which is about twice as many as the 90s Iron Man, Fantastic Four or Hulk 'toons got.

[Capt. Speedbump]

Season 2 of Avenger: Earth's MIghtiest Heroes was greenlit long before the show even started airing. As we speak, it's already deep in post-production. Worst case senario, A:EMH is still garunteed at least 52 episodes. Which is about twice as many as the 90s Iron Man, Fantastic Four or Hulk 'toons got.

Correct. In fact, if memory serves me, A:EMH was given 52 episodes right out of the gate, as opposed to getting 26 to start, and getting 26 more after that. One of the creators (I forget who... could have been Chris Yost, Josh Fine, or someone else) said that getting 52 episodes was an incredible luxury, and that even some of the story lines and characters hinted at in the first five (20 micro) episodes would not be significantly expanded upon until the second set of 26.

Also, it was said that episode 52 wrapped pre-production a few weeks ago, so new episodes will be coming for a while (33 of them, in America at least). Hopefully, there will be more after that, but yes, even 52 episodes is a relatively high number compared to other Marvel Animated series in general.

[ktk]

so i do feel worry about the new brillant avengers progam and well as ulimate spider man that they too might not live to see greatness

Big difference is that both of those shows are directly controlled by Marvel. That makes all the difference in the world.

Though its still no guarantee that the shows will last. If they get bad ratings or lose their creative spark or don't fit the image Marvel wants to portray for their property or etc, etc.

[Antiyonder]

Well Super Hero Squad got a second season, and if not for Sony owning it, The Spectacular Spider-Man would likely have seen more episodes.

[suss2it]

Also, it was said that episode 52 wrapped pre-production a few weeks ago, so new episodes will be coming for a while (33 of them, in America at least). Hopefully, there will be more after that, but yes, even 52 episodes is a relatively high number compared to other Marvel Animated series in general.I think it's post-production that they just finished. If it's just pre-production there's still a chance for them to cancel it.

Also this (http://twitter.com/#!/Josh_Fine/status/48828505814876160) sounds very post-productiony.

[SpaceWay2008]

I see what the OP is saying. I wish Marvel shows are able to stick around longer. One or two seasons is short.. I can't believe that "Wolverine and X-Men" got cancelled. I had no idea till now.

[ShadowStar]

Also this (http://twitter.com/#!/Josh_Fine/status/48828505814876160) sounds very post-productiony.

Is a 'picture review' where they get the finished animation back?

[suss2it]

Is a 'picture review' where they get the finished animation back?

No idea, it just soundsl like something that would happen in post-production.

[the greenman]

I don't think Marvel is cursed. I think the dtv's had great animation. It's the television series that are kinda touch and go.

The Fantastic Four series by Moonscope was kinda cool. Spectacular Spider-Man was pretty good from a strory standpoint, animation was different. Wolverine and the X-Men was interesting too, but these shows are being controlled from a corporate standpoint, and that's really what's messing these shows up. But the 52 ep count on Avengers: EMH is enough to really build something special if the creators are smart. That's about what Timm and co. got with JL/JLU.

[GregX]

Spectacular Spider-Man was pretty good from a strory standpoint, animation was different.

Unlike other Spider-Man series, the characters were capable of movement. Or do we not want movement in our animation.

[the greenman]

Hmmm, I stated before I wasn't that in love with the designs, but the writing kept me going. I'm not gonna be overly critical, cause I kinda liked the show.

[Kaveh77]

I think Spider-Man is cursed

Spider-Man tas ended on a cliffhanger, Spider-Man Unlimited ended on a cliffhanger, MTV Spider-Man ended on a cliffhanger, and The Spectacular Spider-Man ended on a cliffhanger.

I mean when will we be able to get an accurate well written and animated show that lasts longer than 2 seasons and doesn't end on a cliffhanger?

Off topic but lets hope Greg Weisman doesn't have a 2 season curse (Gargoyles, SSM) and Young Justice lasts

[AlgeaX]

Hmmm, I stated before I wasn't that in love with the designs, but the writing kept me going. I'm not gonna be overly critical, cause I kinda liked the show.

Fair enough but character designs and animation are two very different things. The G1 transformers 'toon had great character designs but often less then stellar animation.

[W.C.Reaf]

Spider-Man tas ended on a cliffhanger

I hate seeing this because that was not a damn cliffhanger. Silver Surfer ended on a cliffhanger with the universe about to be destroyed and a “The End?” fad to black. SM:TAS ended with Spidey saving all of reality then travelling with a multidimensional being, as powerful as the Beyonder, to find Mary Jane. Sure we don't see that happen but we can be damn well sure it did. All we missed was a two second stock shot of Peter and MJ kissing showing they’ve found each other.

Sorry but that's a pet peeve of mine. Whenever someone says that it sounds like SM:TAS ended on some sort of tragedy that needed to be resolved, but it wasn't. It was the promise of more adventures that didn't come and that's not the same as a cliffhanger.

[Capt. Speedbump]

I think it's post-production that they just finished. If it's just pre-production there's still a chance for them to cancel it.

Also this (http://twitter.com/#!/Josh_Fine/status/48828505814876160) sounds very post-productiony.

Well, that was episode 37, which might have finished post-production by now, but I'm pretty sure episode 52 had finished pre-production a few weeks ago, which means presumably it's in production now, although how far along it is now is anyone's guess.

Now I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I think for pre-production to be complete, the script, storyboards, and designs of any new characters and locations are finalized and approved. The production aspect I believe involves recording the voices and then the animation. Finally, the post-production involves the editing, any revisions, and then the episode is "in the can" (ready to be aired).

So at this point, I don't think the show will be canceled before episode 52 is done since they're in the middle of making it, but I doubt at this point, episode 52 is in the can.

But again, I'm just putting forth somewhat educated guesses.

[GregX]

Well, that was episode 37, which might have finished post-production by now, but I'm pretty sure episode 52 had finished pre-production a few weeks ago, which means presumably it's in production now, although how far along it is now is anyone's guess.

Now I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but I think for pre-production to be complete, the script, storyboards, and designs of any new characters and locations are finalized and approved. The production aspect I believe involves recording the voices and then the animation. Finally, the post-production involves the editing, any revisions, and then the episode is "in the can" (ready to be aired).

So at this point, I don't think the show will be canceled before episode 52 is done since they're in the middle of making it, but I doubt at this point, episode 52 is in the can.

But again, I'm just putting forth somewhat educated guesses.

Voice recording is done before storyboards. In fact, episodes are boarded based on both the script and the voice track.

[macattack]

I think part of the problem is that Marvel, until recently, didn't have a corporate parent to assist and stabilize animation production. DC always had Warner Brothers. Marvel always had to make deals with third parties to put their shows on the air, and even they went to WB once for X-Men Evolution.

However, now that they have a corporate parent, it destabilized what they already have. WatXM and Spectacular Spider-man both died basically because of the purchase. Iron Man: AA may have been affected by this too as there's rumors of staff turnover following Disney's purchase. Cartoon Network deathslotted Super Hero Squad pretty much because of it. And as Avengers: EMH was the last show to begin before Disney's purchase it may get adversely affected too, I don't know. It was not on Disney's priority list at the Upfronts.

[Trevor]

Spider-Man tas ended on a cliffhanger, Spider-Man Unlimited ended on a cliffhanger, MTV Spider-Man ended on a cliffhanger, and The Spectacular Spider-Man ended on a cliffhanger.



I haven't seen Season 2 of Spectacular Spider-Man (not that I really want too after the disastrous first season), but really the last Spider-Man show to not end on a cliff-hanger, from what I can tell, was the 80's Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. Otherwise, the 1994 show, I just watched the final episode recently, and just the way the ending is written, it really leaves that show on a cliff-hanger, since you don't even see the Spider-Man that we've been following during the entire series return to his home dimension. Hopefully someday if Marvel continues its DTV's we'll see a concluding story for the series that wraps it up and maybe ties it into Spider-Man Unlimited.

But with most Marvel cartoon shows, they mostly only last for 13 or 26 episodes. Aside from Spider-Man 1967, Spider-Man 1994, X-Men 1992 & X-Men: Evolution, none of the other cartoons have reached the 52 episode mark that 67 and Evo did, or the 65 episodes that 1994 hit, or even the astounding 76 episodes that X-Men 1992 hit.

[AlgeaX]

But with most Marvel cartoon shows, they mostly only last for 13 or 26 episodes. Aside from Spider-Man 1967, Spider-Man 1994, X-Men 1992 & X-Men: Evolution, none of the other cartoons have reached the 52 episode mark that 67 and Evo did, or the 65 episodes that 1994 hit, or even the astounding 76 episodes that X-Men 1992 hit.

Strictly speaking Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes has already hit the 52 mark, they just haven't finished production on season 2 yet.

[Trevor]

Strictly speaking Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes has already hit the 52 mark, they just haven't finished production on season 2 yet.

Strictly speaking, you can't say that the show has 52 episodes until all 52 have aired or have been released on home video. So, right now, it has only hit the 26 episode mark.

[Bloody Marquis]

Strictly speaking, you can't say that the show has 52 episodes until all 52 have aired or have been released on home video. So, right now, it has only hit the 26 episode mark.
Not really. Unless some kind of freak accident occurs, the show has 52 episodes set in stone. Just because they haven't been shown yet doesn't mean they don't exist.

[suss2it]

Strictly speaking, you can't say that the show has 52 episodes until all 52 have aired or have been released on home video. So, right now, it has only hit the 26 episode mark.

Then they haven't hit the 26 episode mark either. Not to mention that the first 13 episodes of season 2 are done (http://twitter.com/#!/Josh_Fine/status/56806530267365376). So it's a sure thing that we're getting all 52 (or at least 39) because there's no way Marvel would waste money producing the episodes only not to air them. So even if EMH doesn't get good enough ratings and actually causes them to lose money, they'd still be losing more by not airing them.

[Trevor]

Not really. Unless some kind of freak accident occurs, the show has 52 episodes set in stone. Just because they haven't been shown yet doesn't mean they don't exist.


I'm not saying that they wouldn't exist, but if they are never released in any format, then the show only has 26 episodes. And, right now, you can only count 26 episodes. In the 50's, Boris Karloff filmed a TV-series called The Veil. There were 10 episodes shot, filmed and edited before the production company went bankrupt, but they have never(and as far as I can find out to this date) been aired. Sure there are the DVD/home video releases of the show...but back before DVD/home video even though people knew about the show then, how many episodes could people say that it had released? Zero. Even though the episodes existed in a vault somewhere, until they were released in syndication (as other shows have done such as Dinosaurs and L.A. Dragnet) or home video (Wonderfalls), it's a case of the old saying, "Don't count your chickens before they hatch!"

[Anwar]

Now that Marvel has an animation giant in the form of Disney backing them up, most of their problems with licensing out their properties to different studios should be resolved and the "curse" lifted.

[ifthismeansevos]

Yes I think as of now the curse is probably lifted the sad thing is we had to lose Wolverine (Which coulda worked the cliffhanger nicely...and Spectacular oh such a lose you were bud. Avengers will probably hit the 52 mark I though Armored and Squad were going to hit it also but I could be dead wrong there. Now we can only hope they get quality and not just quantity. You know like Xmen 90s that is a good example of quality in writing and quantity in number of episodes even if animationwise it coulda improve a lot.

[Capt. Speedbump]

Voice recording is done before storyboards. In fact, episodes are boarded based on both the script and the voice track.

Really? Well, everyone should probably take your word for it since you know at least one expert in the field (Mr. Weisman), and I pretty much get all of my "knowledge" through the internet and guessing...

Oh well. Chalk up one more thing I've been wrong about! ;)




The Spectacular Spider-Man ended on a cliffhanger.

Off topic but lets hope Greg Weisman doesn't have a 2 season curse (Gargoyles, SSM) and Young Justice lasts

Well, Spectacular certiantly wasn't intended to end the way it did. The other shows I do fault more because they should have considered the possibility they wouldn't come back.

I certainly hope Greg Weisman isn't cursed. I've never seen Gargoyles myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about it (the stuff Weisman did anyway). And the fact that we're not discussing Season 4 of Spectacular right now and speculating about Season 5 still rankles me to this day. So I too hope Greg sees his full vision of Young Justice realized.

Mod Note: There's no need for two posts when one will do.

[the greenman]

Hope that curse doesn't extend to the dvd's. It sure seems that way though.

[suss2it]

Hope that curse doesn't extend to the dvd's. It sure seems that way though.

We've gotten 7 DTVs with an 8th coming, that's far more than what the 90s, 80s etc, got.

[macattack]

DC puts out DTVs like nobody's business, though. That leads to the perception that Marvel's DTVs aren't doing so well.

I would like to think that Marvel's animation will be more stable but the rash of cancellations make me feel nervous about Disney being in control now. Plus Jeph Loeb too. In another day and time Loeb's name would mean a good thing but now it's back to that favorite big word of mine: "trepidation".

Disney is not treating Avengers EMH that well for what should be a landmark property. The odd time slot and suddenly falling behind Australia isn't helping things. The lack of Upfront mention is also unnerving. Disney is being all "out with the old in with the new" even though Avengers isn't even a year into its run.

[suss2it]

DC puts out DTVs like nobody's business, though. That leads to the perception that Marvel's DTVs aren't doing so well. Even so, 8 animated movies is still a far cry from a curse. If we don't get another after Tales of Asgard, yeah I'll be bummed, but it's like ending a TV show with 5 seasons, it still sucks but we did get a lot out of it.


I would like to think that Marvel's animation will be more stable but the rash of cancellations make me feel nervous about Disney being in control now. Plus Jeph Loeb too. In another day and time Loeb's name would mean a good thing but now it's back to that favorite big word of mine: "trepidation". I was under the impression only one show was canceled because of that deal. Wolverine and the X-Men was canceled because of a financial partner falling through, not due to Disney.


Disney is not treating Avengers EMH that well for what should be a landmark property. The odd time slot and suddenly falling behind Australia isn't helping things. The lack of Upfront mention is also unnerving. Disney is being all "out with the old in with the new" even though Avengers isn't even a year into its run.To be fair, they have no control of what Australia does once they sign the deal to let them air the show. And honestly, the target audience isn't savvy enough to torrent or YouTube their favourite shows.

Instead of us all looking at what was lost, let's look at the new stuff we are getting. Four anime series, a new Spider-Man cartoon, Tales of Asgard and at minimum 33 more episodes of EMH. Doesn't seem like much of a curse to me.

[the greenman]

We've gotten 7 DTVs with an 8th coming, that's far more than what the 90s, 80s etc, got.

Yeah, and what about Gargoyles season 2 vol 2?

[suss2it]

Yeah, and what about Gargoyles season 2 vol 2?

What about it?

[J!!!]

I've noticed this too guys but I never marked it up to be a curse or anything like that...This is odd though~

[the greenman]

What about it?

I think you're talking about dvd's in general. I was responding to the post about Weisman having a season two curse.

[TheVileOne]

According to Josh Fine, 13 episodes of season 2 have been for Avengers. Based off what voice actors have mentioned on season 2, the voice recording for all 26 is done and a reasonable amount of production has starte. At least more than one can assume was done for Wolverine and The X-men season 2. That said, episodes were written and character designs were made for WatXM season 2 and shown at SDCC 2009.

My one hope is that the show will get some sort of end DVD movie at some point which Jeph Loeb did state he was open to previously.

[suss2it]

I think you're talking about dvd's in general. I was responding to the post about Weisman having a season two curse.

I was talking about the direct-to-video line Marvel has with Lionsgate.

But now that you bring it up, I don't think Greg has a curse either, since the entirety of Spectacular Spider-Man is on DVD and Young Justice is available in HD on iTunes and Amazon.

[babykhris]

DC puts out DTVs like nobody's business, though. That leads to the perception that Marvel's DTVs aren't doing so well.

I would like to think that Marvel's animation will be more stable but the rash of cancellations make me feel nervous about Disney being in control now. Plus Jeph Loeb too. In another day and time Loeb's name would mean a good thing but now it's back to that favorite big word of mine: "trepidation".

Disney is not treating Avengers EMH that well for what should be a landmark property. The odd time slot and suddenly falling behind Australia isn't helping things. The lack of Upfront mention is also unnerving. Disney is being all "out with the old in with the new" even though Avengers isn't even a year into its run.

In Marvel's defense they didn't have a strong partnership with a distributor like DC has with WB, plus when the Marvel/Lionsgate deal happened there were dozens of restrictions on what Marvel could or couldn't do. The 8 Lionsgate dvd ONLY were about the 15-20 characters of the original Marvel Studios.

Since then Marvel inked with Disney, gotten rights back (Luke Cage, Inhumans, etc.) and now we got the first of many Marvel dvds (EMH). Be honest some of the cancellations made sense. Now that Marvel is under Disney they have 100% control of their DVD product.

I have no problem with Loeb being in charge. He's bringing stability into Marvel Animation which was like a 3-4 person team. Now Marvel Television has a dozen of projects in the works.

Now about Disney is not treating Avengers EMH well. I think the time slot is fine. Would you rather it be on Fridays competing with Young Justice? CN's Friday lineup is strong while Avengers is standing alone. Maybe if DXD had a 1 2 punch of Avengers and USM then a move to Friday or Sat makes sense.
Beside we all knew Disney was holding the show back in time for THOR.

[suss2it]

I have no problem with Loeb being in charge. He's bringing stability into Marvel Animation which was like a 3-4 person team. Now Marvel Television has a dozen of projects in the works.Really? I can only think of two.

[babykhris]

Yes Loeb has mad some bonehead comic decisions, but he's just president and look at the people who are in charge at Marvel Animation there track record is great (Yost, Fine, Men of Action, Bendis, Casey,etc)

Loeb is like Feige he hires good people to do the job. If the shows suck then criticize.

[TheVileOne]

I'm not really worried about the quality of these shows. I'm just worried if they will get the time and support they need to evolve that shows like WGH, SSM, WaTXM, and SHS didn't be it financial or from a network. Cartoon Network renewed SHS and have basically dumped it and don't even want us to watch it. I'm sorry but that's lame.

To me the really questionable shows were the bankruptcy era ones which I believe were the brainchilds of Avi Arad, specifically Spider-man Unlimited and Avengers United We Stand which were just bad shows. I'm still disappointed we never got Silver Surfer season 2 or Captain America though. I was hoping Hayter would've voiced Cap again in that series.