Does Hulk work as an Avenger (in A:EMH)?

[AlgeaX]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit I'm one of those folks who never cared for the idea of Hulk as a founding member of the Avengers in the comics. Hulk at his core just isn't a superhero, he's a monster. He's Frankenstein's monster, Dr Jekyll, Mr. Hyde and Godzilla all rolled into one.

That said, I was willing to give the idea a chance when A:EMH started. And I'll admit they did a fair job of winning me over at first. I especially liked that they were going with a more intelligent Peter David style Hulk, a character who could theoretically be reasoned with. Both Some Assembly Required and Gamma World were pretty fun stories focusing on the Hulk's departure and return to the team.

Since then, he hasn't really contributed anything to the show beyond smashing up villainous cannon fodder or being the butt of the odd gag. It's almost like the writers themselves don't know what to do with him. Leaving him to lumber in the background while the actual protagonists drive the plot.

Honestly, I think the show would have been better served using Hulk as a recurring antagonist for the team, with the occasionally team up against a greater evil like the Leader.

[suss2it]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Hulk just isn't really a superhero. On A: EMH, what is his motivation for being a hero? I remember him and Banner had some conversation, but I don't understand why he does it. All the others, they all have clear reasons for doing what they do.

I'd rather Hulk leave permantely, and get replaced with She-Hulk, that way we'd have more than one woman on the team, and they could do some interesting stuff with Hulk & She-Hulk. Such as her defending him, and debating whether to hunt him down or not.

[ktk]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit I'm one of those folks who never cared for the idea of Hulk as a founding member of the Avengers in the comics.

Why's that? His limited time with the early Avengers makes sense to me. Especially in the sense that it was partly used to further portray him as antagonistic towards the other heroes and as a monster in the eyes of the rest of the Marvel Universe. I thought it did a nice job of really setting him apart from the other Marvel heroes. He had his chance to be a hero, but it just didn't work out for him.


I do have to wonder if he'll be a full time member in AEMH Season 2 though. It would make sense to see him go off on his own and be replaced by someone else.

There are 2 problems though:

1) There is no other Hulk show airing right now, other than the usual funny appearances on SHSS. If the rumored Hulk live action show ever makes it's way to tv in the next year or two, there will be less of a need for Hulk to be on AEMH. But for now, AEMH is Hulk's main media/television outlet.

2) The looming Avengers live action movie likely plays a part in this team lineup as well. AEMH is being used to introduce a lot of kids and other folks to the Avengers both as a whole and individually. Considering that Hulk is going to play a part in the live action movie, it makes sense that Marvel would want him to be a part of AEMH as well.

That said, it remains to be seen exactly what type of part Hulk will be playing in the live action movie, and if things go a certain way in the movie, it could certainly open up the avenue for Hulk to leave AEMH in the future.

[Medinnus]

Hulk at his core just isn't a superhero, he's a monster. He's Frankenstein's monster, Dr Jekyll, Mr. Hyde and Godzilla all rolled into one.

The MU-616 is, I agree - but like the rest of our crew, the AEMH versions aren't the MU-616 versions.

The writers (for right or wrong) have already done away with most of the factors in the MU-616 which makes him a monster, at least at this point. The Hulk has already been portrayed as willing to place himself at risk to save others; not only other Avengers, but anyone not attacking him, like catching Hawkeye's SHIELD helicopter transport, saving Bobbi Morse.


It's almost like the writers themselves don't know what to do with him. Leaving him to lumber in the background while the actual protagonists drive the plot.

...yes and no. He's got what I call "Superman Syndrome" (not that the concept is original). When you have Martian Manhunter and Superman on a team, there are very few villains that provide an actual threat... While I think that, when angry, Hulk eventually develops a slightly greater strength than Thor, on a practical basis there is no difference, and Thor has other attributes which make him more useful (strategically and tactically). So, as in the Justice League series, you end up with Superman written "off visiting Smallville", or dealing with Darkseid while the camera follows the other characters, or off to save the people of Canada from a tsunami (or bad beer, eh?). Up until now, Thor has been visiting Asgard when they need him gone; Hulk has no "Asgard".

To a degree, what you say is true about every member of the team. Each arc has a set of focal characters, and the rest of the team... kind of hold up the scenery (or in Hawkeye's case, chewing it to little bits).

Fortunately, from what we know of the rest of the season, the threat levels are quite... threatening. Lets see if you feel the same way after the season finale!?

That said, I'd love to see the Defenders. :D

[AlgeaX]

Why's that? His limited time with the early Avengers makes sense to me. Especially in the sense that it was partly used to further portray him as antagonistic towards the other heroes and as a monster in the eyes of the rest of the Marvel Universe. I thought it did a nice job of really setting him apart from the other Marvel heroes. He had his chance to be a hero, but it just didn't work out for him.

To my mind it's one of those things that probably seemed like a good idea at the time but doesn't really work in hindsight. I've just never seen Hulk as a superhero. He's more like a classic movie monster in the style of King Kong or Boris Karloff's Frankenstein's Monster, a frightening, dangerous yet tragic figure shunned and hounded by a world he has no place in.

Sticking him in the Avengers put the character in a context that doesn't really play to his dramatic strengths. It's kinda like having Swamp Thing as a member of the Justice League.


1) There is no other Hulk show airing right now, other than the usual funny appearances on SHSS. If the rumored Hulk live action show ever makes it's way to tv in the next year or two, there will be less of a need for Hulk to be on AEMH. But for now, AEMH is Hulk's main media/television outlet.

I get that and I do realise that Hulk is probably the most popular Marvel character who doesn't have an x-gene or the word Spider in his name. But I think shifting him from cast member to recurring antagonist would actually get him more exposure, as it would lead to more stories actually focused on the Hulk. As it is just slot in any other super strong character into Hulk's place and it wouldn't effect the show at all.

[CyclonatorZ]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit I'm one of those folks who never cared for the idea of Hulk as a founding member of the Avengers in the comics. Hulk at his core just isn't a superhero, he's a monster. He's Frankenstein's monster, Dr Jekyll, Mr. Hyde and Godzilla all rolled into one.
Correction - in certain interpretations, the Hulk is a monster. But just because some people have portrayed him that way doesn’t mean all interpretations have to be modeled after the savage hulk. By that logic, the more savage he is, the better, and thus the cannibalistic hulk from Ultimate is the best version.

Honestly, I much prefer Hulk when he’s portrayed as a conflicted but somewhat noble and intelligent being. The complete monster interpretation only can go so far character-wise, and it usually results in him being nothing more than a mindless killing machine. This has for long been the most well-known portrayal of the Hulk, hence the phrase “Hulk Smash” being forever lodged in the popular mindset. However, in recent years we’ve begun to see a bit of a turn-around regarding his character, with first Planet Hulk and then Avengers: EMH putting him in a significantly better light. Even the second live action movie largely portrayed him as misunderstood rather than completely monstrous (see the scenes with him and Betty, and the final battle where he plays the hero to Abomination’s villain). And considering the quality of all these productions, I can’t say I’m missing the old, savage Hulk much.

Also, Medinnus hit it right on the head when he described the “superman syndrome” all the characters face. When you’re dealing with a show that features multiple incredibly powerful heroes, it’s hard to keep them all in the spotlight without making everything seem too easy for the good guys. It’s not surprising that Hulk didn’t appear in episodes like “Widow’s Sting” and “Panther’s Quest,” as he would have contributed nothing to the plot except an overwhelming advantage for the Avengers. But in episodes like “459” and the Kang Trilogy, the foes were so enormous that Hulk’s presence didn’t skew the balance of power in the heroes’ favor. Combine that with a characterization that is both compelling and often humorous, and you have a winning recipe IMO.

[suss2it]

Correction - in certain interpretations, the Hulk is a monster. But just because some people have portrayed him that way doesn’t mean all interpretations have to be modeled after the savage hulk. By that logic, the more savage he is, the better, and thus the cannibalistic hulk from Ultimate is the best version.

Honestly, I much prefer Hulk when he’s portrayed as a conflicted but somewhat noble and intelligent being. The complete monster interpretation only can go so far character-wise, and it usually results in him being nothing more than a mindless killing machine. This has for long been the most well-known portrayal of the Hulk, hence the phrase “Hulk Smash” being forever lodged in the popular mindset. However, in recent years we’ve begun to see a bit of a turn-around regarding his character, with first Planet Hulk and then Avengers: EMH putting him in a significantly better light. Even the second live action movie largely portrayed him as misunderstood rather than completely monstrous (see the scenes with him and Betty, and the final battle where he plays the hero to Abomination’s villain). And considering the quality of all these productions, I can’t say I’m missing the old, savage Hulk much. Hulk can still be a misunderstood, tragic monster without being a fully mindless, cannibal, horny killing machine, ala Ultimate Hulk. Personally I think the movie Planet Hulk characterized him perfectly. Angry at the world for justifiably seeing him as a monster, but still compassionate and trying to do the right thing. In that movie he wasn't a superhero, and I think that was one of the movie's strengths.

[CyclonatorZ]

Hulk can still be a misunderstood, tragic monster without being a fully mindless, cannibal, horny killing machine, ala Ultimate Hulk. Personally I think the movie Planet Hulk characterized him perfectly. Angry at the world for justifiably seeing him as a monster, but still compassionate and trying to do the right thing. In that movie he wasn't a superhero, and I think that was one of the movie's strengths.

He wasn't a pure hero, per say... but then, neither is the Hulk on Avengers: EMH. Just like in the comics, he initially stayed with the team only a very short time, and didn't rejoin until Gamma World. More importantly, through the entire course of the series, he's been show to be somewhat brutish and conflicted in his role as an Avenger's member. He's certainly not a blantant "knight in shining armor" like Thor or Captain America, and he's hardly suited for more delicate tasks such as diplomacy. ;)

[AlgeaX]

Correction - in certain interpretations, the Hulk is a monster. But just because some people have portrayed him that way doesn’t mean all interpretations have to be modeled after the savage hulk. By that logic, the more savage he is, the better, and thus the cannibalistic hulk from Ultimate is the best version.


I may not have made myself clear. I'm not trying to argue that Hulk's character should only be interpreted in only one way or that "Hulk Smash!" is the only legitimate version of the character. Heck, two of my favourite versions of the character are Peter David's Joe Fixit and Greg Pak's Greenscar from Planet Hulk. Both are as far from mindless Hulk as you can get. But then again they're equally far from your standard superhero too. In fact, I've actually praised A:EMH for using a more more itellegent Peter David style Hulk. I just wish they'd use him more.



Also, Medinnus hit it right on the head when he described the “superman syndrome” all the characters face. When you’re dealing with a show that features multiple incredibly powerful heroes, it’s hard to keep them all in the spotlight without making everything seem too easy for the good guys. It’s not surprising that Hulk didn’t appear in episodes like “Widow’s Sting” and “Panther’s Quest,” as he would have contributed nothing to the plot except an overwhelming advantage for the Avengers. But in episodes like “459” and the Kang Trilogy, the foes were so enormous that Hulk’s presence didn’t skew the balance of power in the heroes’ favor. Combine that with a characterization that is both compelling and often humorous, and you have a winning recipe IMO.


Perhaps, but I think it's more a matter of what Hulk brings to the table in terms of character and story potential then his super powers. Cap, Panther and Hawkeye all have pretty much the same "superpower" yet each of them has different strengths as characters. For example, you couldn't slot Clint or T'Challa into the same role Steve played in Comes a Conqueror.

It probably wouldn't bother me as much if they spent more time exploring the implications of Hulk as an Avenger. Like what does General Ross think of the team harbouring a dangerous monster? Where are Rick and Betty in all this? Do the rest of the Avengers worry that Hulk might one day snap and kill them all? There are a lot of stories you can do with the Hulk that you couldn't do with Thor.

[CyclonatorZ]

It probably wouldn't bother me as much if they spent more time exploring the implications of Hulk as an Avenger. Like what does General Ross think of the team harbouring a dangerous monster? Where are Rick and Betty in all this? Do the rest of the Avengers worry that Hulk might one day snap and kill them all? There are a lot of stories you can do with the Hulk that you couldn't do with Thor.

I agree that these stories are definitely worth telling in the show's format. I think the main reason why the writers haven't had as much light shed on Hulk as you might want is because the Thor and Captain America casts have taken up so much of the first season's plotlines. Asgard in particular seems to be the primary theme of season 1, and Captain America and Thor's adjustment to modern earth has been featured constantly. However, once we hit late 2010-2011 and the feature length movies featuring those characters have run their course, I wouldn't be suprised if we see more focus being given to the other heroes.

[trance2009]

See, the thing with Hulk is he is that guy in your group that's a jerk, and oftentimes you get bugged with him because of his short temper, but you still need him ultimately. Originally he more or less wanted to join as a founding member because he was sick of them constantly going after him for stuff he obviously never started.

[Aquaman OS]

Hulk hasn't been around long enough to do much beyond smash anyway. He only recently just rejoined and was only really active in the Kang Trilogy where there stuff blowing up left and right nonstop. In 459 he was just kind of there, in Masters of Evil he was warped away most of the ep, and Widows Sting had him not show up at all.

There haven't been many character focus eps since he came back aside from Widow (which was Hawkeye) and 459 (which was Wasp and Hank focused while introducing Carol as well).

And as mentioned Thor and Cap are getting the focus most of the time because they've got films coming out and aren't as well known to the casual crowd. In season 2 I think Hulk will start getting some focus.

I'm actually glad though that they're letting everybody appear frequently rather than take the Justice League method of only having characters relevant to the ep appear and the others be gone. The only notable time characters have been gone without explaination is in 459 where the non founding members are not there for some reason (You'd think this was an early ep were it not for Hulk being there) and in Widow's Sting where Aside from Cap Hawkeye and Panther everybody else is gone, except for Iron Man who's there for a minute in the beginning of the ep.

[Medinnus]

It probably wouldn't bother me as much if they spent more time exploring the implications of Hulk as an Avenger. Like what does General Ross think of the team harbouring a dangerous monster? Where are Rick and Betty in all this? Do the rest of the Avengers worry that Hulk might one day snap and kill them all? There are a lot of stories you can do with the Hulk that you couldn't do with Thor.

I think that's a little unfair; with a cast as large as it is, and with as many sub-plots as they have, I'm not surprised they haven't explored this as thoroughly as they might have, but we don't know that they won't address that in Season Two as a theme. This isn't the Incredible Hulk and his Amazing Friends; the focus rotates. There is not a single character for which their partisans don't want more focus.

I do wish we'd see Rick Jones. Maybe Season Two.

[Aquaman OS]

I think it's safe to say Ross is annoyed, from the little we saw of him.

I don't think the Avengers worry though. From what I can see Hulk does seem to genuniely like most of them. Or at least, he likes Wasp and Hawkeye, and has grudging respect for Thor at least. Don't know his opinions on Hank, Panther Cap or Iron Man. He's had little interaction with them.

[Munkiman]

EMH's Hulk isn't the definitive version, but I think he keeps to the spirit of the character. The Hulk is still moody, still an outsider. He tends to be selfish and petty and, of course, quick to anger. But while other interpretations see the Hulk as an embodiment of Banner's anger in the Jekyll and Hyde fashion, here we have an interesting relationship between Bruce Banner and the Hulk, where they're clearly separate personalities but you can also see some of Banner shining through. The Hulk makes a deal with Banner to stay the Hulk in exchange for using his powers for good, but he probably wouldn't have done that if he didn't have some real desire to help others - as shown by his saving Bobbi Morse before he makes the deal. That's because the Hulk amplifies Banner's negative qualities, but it can't completely eliminate Banner's inherent goodness.

I find this Hulk really interesting. He's more intelligent than many versions of the character, and has a genuine desire to do good and be accepted, but his personality flaws cause others to fear and reject him, so the Hulk comes to resent them and build further walls around himself. The Hulk shows little outward regard for anyone but himself, but at his core all he wants is acceptance - he's just been hurt too often not to keep people at arm's length. I've only read one Hulk comic, Planet Hulk, and I think that that Hulk was similar in many ways, as is especially evident in the scene where he imagines being taunted by the heroes of Earth about how he'll never be able to help anyone, causing him to fly into a rage and tear them apart.


It probably wouldn't bother me as much if they spent more time exploring the implications of Hulk as an Avenger. Like what does General Ross think of the team harbouring a dangerous monster? Where are Rick and Betty in all this? Do the rest of the Avengers worry that Hulk might one day snap and kill them all? There are a lot of stories you can do with the Hulk that you couldn't do with Thor.
Although we haven't seen much of Hulk's supporting cast, we've definitely gotten plenty of the team's concerns about him being on the team, especially in "Some Assembly Required." Thor most openly disliked Hulk for his brutish rudeness, Hank disapproved of his volatility though he wasn't as open about it as Thor, Iron Man seemed worried that Hulk was going to ruin his cool new team before it started... the only one who seemed to like Hulk was Wasp, who would certainly call him out for being a jerk but otherwise seemed to feel that he was a hero like the rest of them.

And everyone's view of Hulk has evolved over time. Hank has probably gone through the least change because he doesn't tend to interact with Hulk and still is a bit too uptight to like a chaotic meathead like the Hulk, but he isn't one to make a fuss over it unless the Hulk does something really wrong. Wasp still feels the same way about the Hulk pretty much, too. Iron Man has gotten used to Hulk's presence and treats him like part of the team. I think the one who has changed the most is Thor, though, who went from openly disliking Hulk to being perhaps the closest one on the team to him. Their sporting rivalry is really enjoyable - they've come to respect each other as warriors and enjoy friendly competition such as their contest to take out the most robots in "Come the Conqueror." Thor and the Hulk are very similar in that they tend to plunge into situations headfirst and let their actions speak for them, and while this initially made them hate each other it's given them a closer bond.

I think we've also seen signs of how the newer members feel about the Hulk as well. Cap doesn't have the stigma of having known the Hulk's reputation before he was an Avenger, so he tends to see Hulk as just part of the team, no stranger than the rest of the insane future world he's fallen into. But he dislikes Hulk's lack of discipline, as seen in "Come the Conqueror." Hawkeye has the closest relationship to the Hulk besides Thor, having joined the team with Hulk after his first mission was helping Hulk stop the Leader. Hawkeye and Hulk are pals - they trade quips, they hang out together (like watching the Cap/Tony fight in "The Kang Dynasty"), and they really do respect one another - would Hulk have abandoned Hawkeye against the giant fusion-robot in "Come the Conqueror" if he didn't believe that Hawkeye could handle it? I don't think so.

Hulk has been more of a background character lately, and I'm looking forward to seeing him take the spotlight again soon.

[ShadowStar]

Well, if Ms. Marvel, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Wonder Man join the ranks of the team, they need to get rid of a few members, and I don't think Hulk needs to be around all the time, so I'll be OK with him being an occasional member if they go down that route.

As for who else might leave to make room for those characters: We know that Ant-Man quits in episode 22, but he might change his mind. Still, if he really does leave, I can see Wasp going with him so they can focus on their relationship. Surely the romantic tension between them will come to a head soon?

Depending on what happens in the season finale, Thor might decide to remain in Asgard.

Black Panther might decide that Wakanda needs to be more closely guarded, so he might leave, though I'd say that he's more likely to stick around than Ant-Man and Wasp, and maybe Thor and Hulk.

Can't see Captain America, Iron Man or Hawkeye going anywhere.

[Aquaman OS]

I believe one of the producers hinted that the team would get smaller for awhile but then get bigger. So yeah, I think people will leave. Assuming they go the comics route Iron Man Wasp Thor and Ant Man would leave, but they've deviated alot from that already by having Hulk stick around.

Hulk though seems to be a permanent addition. If he's not with the Avengers then he's considered a fugative again and gets hunted by the Hulkbusters. And having him storm off in a huff and go renagade again would be redundant. On the side I also can't see them dropping Wasp, regardless of Pym, because she's been such a hit with the audience nor Panther if only for diversitys sake, unless they want to bring in Luke Cage or something.

[ShadowStar]

I believe one of the producers hinted that the team would get smaller for awhile but then get bigger. So yeah, I think people will leave. Assuming they go the comics route Iron Man Wasp Thor and Ant Man would leave, but they've deviated alot from that already by having Hulk stick around.

Hulk though seems to be a permanent addition. If he's not with the Avengers then he's considered a fugative again and gets hunted by the Hulkbusters. And having him storm off in a huff and go renagade again would be redundant. On the side I also can't see them dropping Wasp, regardless of Pym, because she's been such a hit with the audience nor Panther if only for diversitys sake, unless they want to bring in Luke Cage or something.

Wasp has been a hit with the audience? It's not that I doubt you, but I don't recall hearing any of the creators state that they're thrilled with how she's been received.

[Medinnus]

Wasp has been a hit with the audience? It's not that I doubt you, but I don't recall hearing any of the creators state that they're thrilled with how she's been received.

Well, empirically here - on this forums - she has often been cited as a bright spot. So I think that perception can be forgiven, even if not objectively true.

Meanwhile, back on the subject of the Hulk... when, since Breakout, has he acted as a loose cannon or a monster. If one has to judge him by his actions, and not MU 616 speculations, he has acted not as a monster, but as a hero pretty consistently.

[Krypton_Knight]

He works for me. The Hulk, for the most part, bores the heck out of me in the comics, and has done so since the 60s, but I really like his portrayal here.

[Aaron]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit I'm one of those folks who never cared for the idea of Hulk as a founding member of the Avengers in the comics. Hulk at his core just isn't a superhero, he's a monster. He's Frankenstein's monster, Dr Jekyll, Mr. Hyde and Godzilla all rolled into one.

That said, I was willing to give the idea a chance when A:EMH started. And I'll admit they did a fair job of winning me over at first. I especially liked that they were going with a more intelligent Peter David style Hulk, a character who could theoretically be reasoned with. Both Some Assembly Required and Gamma World were pretty fun stories focusing on the Hulk's departure and return to the team.

Since then, he hasn't really contributed anything to the show beyond smashing up villainous cannon fodder or being the butt of the odd gag. It's almost like the writers themselves don't know what to do with him. Leaving him to lumber in the background while the actual protagonists drive the plot.

Honestly, I think the show would have been better served using Hulk as a recurring antagonist for the team, with the occasionally team up against a greater evil like the Leader.

I couldn't disagree more wholeheartedly.
Hulk IS a hero. Banner hating his monstrous alter-ego, his Hulk persona only being a true monster in the sense of destruction he causes, his anger stemming out of primarily defensive situations, Hulk constantly trying to rescue people despite their fear and hatred toward him.
All of these things make him not only a hero, but one of the best, IMO.

The fact that Hulk understands that people generally hate him, but he goes out of his way to save them anyway, sacrificing whatever chance he might have for being left alone, makes him a fantastic superhero.

I love this exchange from "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes - Hail, Hydra!"

Captain America: "Now remember. Watch out for civilians."
Hulk: "Is THAT why you teamed up with me? To protect people from the MONSTER?!"
Captain America: "Stow that talk. I want you to protect civilians from HYDRA. They're the monsters here, not you. In my day we had a name for someone like you."
Hulk: "Yeah. What's that?"
Captain America: "Hero. I've been watching you Hulk. No matter how scared people are of you, no matter how much you're hounded... you always do the right thing. And that makes you a hero in my book."

Mod Note: Spoilers space added. Use spoiler space when discussing upcoming un-aired episodes out of respect for other users who haven't seen them. Thank you.

User Note: Sorry. I don't get the channel it airs on. And only get to watch 'em once they get uploaded online. I wasn't aware that it hadn't aired yet. My apologies.