B:TAS "Over The Edge" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Discuss this classic Batman: The Animated Series episode from the The New Batman Adventures era!


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/12overtheedge/16.jpg

Episode #097 - Over The Edge
Original Airdate - May 23rd, 1998.

Commissioner Gordon blames Batman for the death of his daughter Barbara, and will stop at nothing to end Batman's reign as Gotham City's Dark Knight.

Comments?

[Bird Boy]

what a powerful ep! The animation was a bit sketchy at times...but, wasn't too bad.

***-Animation
*****-Story
Overall: ****

I'm glad I taped this ep..I will definitely be watching it alot.. :)

And that "Bruce Timm intro" thing was a joke (wasn't even in the intro!). Just some dude talking about the ep.. :(

EDIT: I meant to add this. It's being nit-picky, but the whole part where Harley, Hatter, Riddler and Scarface...that just ruined the seriousness of the ep. This was one ep that didn't need comic relief..

-BB

[Killtacular]

I, too, am heavily disappointed. Carey Means is a great big Batman fan and all, but the fact that Timm had done commentaries and introductions for episodes on the DVD, should've given CN the clue to put a camera on him for at least 30 damn seconds.

[TheScarecrow]

A great episode! This has to be Bob Hastings' finest performance of the series. Hell, everyone was "on" as far as the performances are concerned.

The flashback was not needed though, and it was silly taking place in someone's dream. Other then that, this episode was near perfection.

And I am glad this turned out to be Barbara's dream, even if some view it as a cop-out. I would've hated this to be how the Bat-team really goes out.

[JohnStewart-GL]

I gave it 5 stars because i didn't see anything i didnt like in this ep. i always like the Scarecrow,especially his TNBA look. It just more menacing than his previous looks. I got to see Dick at his finest. As the one and only Nightwing(I always liked his as Nightwing better than as Robin.) And My favorite Robin(Tim Drake).
I felt everyones voice acting was on. in this ep.

[The Penguin]

“Drop the act. Ten minutes on Barbara's computer told me everything. Like a fool I allowed you to run wild on your private crusade. A psychotic misfit playing masked hero. Now I've payed for it with Barbara's life.” - Commissioner James Gordon, Over The Edge

Fantastic!!

By the first minute I was completely hooked! The action, the mystery, the intrigue—it was just awesome! I knew it was a dream by Barbara even though I’d never seen the episode, but I just kept thinking, “What if this really happened?”

After seeing this 5 star effort I may be a lot more stingy with my top ranking.

Now if you’ll excuse me I need to go watch it again! :)

[Calico]

Wow! This was an incredible episode. Even though I'd already read the spoilers about the dream, it didn't make it any less heartstopping to watch. Alfred tackling the cops...Nightwing's efforts to escape capture...the commissioner's phone call to Bruce...and Jim's final 'confession' that he knows Barbara's secret...Excellent!!

[Bruce Wayne]

Wasn't Bruce Timm supposed to add his comments about the episode, as it was said on the news page? If anyone knows about this, or what he said, please tell me, because I don't have cable as of yet.

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by The Penguin
“Drop the act. Ten minutes on Barbara's computer told me everything. Like a fool I allowed you to run wild on your private crusade. A psychotic misfit playing masked hero. Now I've payed for it with Barbara's life.” - Commissioner James Gordon, Over The Edge

Fantastic!!

By the first minute I was completely hooked! The action, the mystery, the intrigue—it was just awesome! I knew it was a dream by Barbara even though I’d never seen the episode, but I just kept thinking, “What if this really happened?”

After seeing this 5 star effort I may be a lot more stingy with my top ranking.

Now if you’ll excuse me I need to go watch it again! :)
Thats a great quote. the was perhaps the best line of the ep.

[BeastBoyWonder]

First time I saw this ep, but after I saw the Scarecrow was involved + mass problems for bruce/batman and the batsignal was destroyed (it was intact in BB until Terry took it out) I knew that it was a farce.

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by ragingdrummerboy
First time I saw this ep, but after I saw the Scarecrow was involved + mass problems for bruce/batman and the batsignal was destroyed (it was intact in BB until Terry took it out) I knew that it was a farce.

actually, the bat-signal in BB was makeshift....in other words, the original Bat-signal was probably destroyed a Looooooooooooooooooong time before BBeyond.


If anyone knows about this, or what he said, please tell me, because I don't have cable as of yet.

You didn't miss anything. All it was was basically this:

Episode Rank: #10

Then it said somthing else (voice talents or maybe the writers of the ep?)

and then the synopsis of the ep. Nothing about Bruce Timm was mentioned..the usual Toonami announcer read it all.

In other words: It was the biggest jip I've ever been hyped for...lol

-BB

[Scarlet Speedster]

I hadn't seen this in years, but I cranked up the VCR when I saw it was coming on. Easily my favorite TNBA. To see the character's worlds come crumbling down around them was amazing. So many terrific moments:
- the Batmobile getting destroyed
- Batman's devastating one-punch knockout of Scarecrow for what he did to Barbara
- the shock on Batman's face when he tries to console Gordon on the street as the commissioner holds his dying daugter's battered body, only to see Gordon turn on him
- the phone call from Gordon to Bruce
- the mayor explaining to Gordon that they too are guilty for letting Batman run rampant for so many years
- Bruce apologizing to the portrait of his parents
- a beaten and bloody Nightwing carted off in disgrace
- Bruce admitting to Tim that he didn't know what to do next, probably for the first time ever
- Gordon abandoning his sense of law and order by letting Bane out of prison
- Gordon abandoning Barbara's casket to chase Bruce, turning his daugter's solemn funeral into a circus

The deconstruction of the characters still gives me chills. Absolutely brilliant.

[Steven C]

This is one of my favorite episodes of Batman...period. I've been waiting for this one to be replayed again for the longest time.


Originally posted by Calico
and Jim's final 'confession' that he knows Barbara's secret...Excellent!!

I never thought about if he actually knew or not. But in ROTJ, Barbara did say that he knew their secret when they buried Joker.
Did he know at this time that Barb was Batgirl???

[Killtacular]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if WB forced Dini to add the "dream" ending.

I'm pretty sure that this was, for all purposes, the way they intended Batman to end, whether or not they ever got there.

Plus it was standard procedure to have a "finale" episode in the middle of a season because of safety reasons. Better to have a finale done and over with, than to plan something big and find out you won't have a job next season.

[FLIPMODE]

The flashback was not needed though, and it was silly taking place in someone's dream.

On the Contrary, I think that was one of the smartest things they could have done. It totally Lures in the first time viewer into thinking, and Accepting that: This is happening Now.

It's a trick, that worked very well.

[Fish]

Originally posted by Steven C
This is one of my favorite episodes of Batman...period. I've been waiting for this one to be replayed again for the longest time.



I never thought about if he actually knew or not. But in ROTJ, Barbara did say that he knew their secret when they buried Joker.
Did he know at this time that Barb was Batgirl???

I always thought he knew afterwards and not during TNBA - But it might be he knew all along. I don't know cuz in the Danish and German translation (dub) of Over The Edge, they make it sounds like the "You" are You as in more people and not You as in one person. ( Do I make sense??)
But in English You can be one person or more...so I don't know.

I LOVE this ep - I love when Batman get the crap beat out of him by Bane and he says" A fight to death? "Batman:" It doesn't matter anymore"
I think Batman would rather die than surrender to the authoreties.
Nightwing was also very cool in this ep.


<>< F I S H ><>

[dc_gothamite]

of all da TNBA eps, this one wuz my fave....

of all the "revamped" eps, this one, IMO, had the best animation for the new simplified designs. Everything ran so smoothly, every character kept its form. None of the characters have looked so kool... maybe it wasn't just the animation, but it wuz the characterization...

maybe it's me, but although BTAS and TNBA r generally referred to as the same show, i have always felt some differences between the two. it's not just the characters and designs, but the general feel isn't the same... to me, "Over the Edge" wuz done in a "classic" BTAS style. i mean that everything is more intense in this episode, and the animation is just sweet.

da commish wuz great here! i luved how he wuz willing to go all out... calling bats a social misfit, and eventually turning to bane for help.

although he wuz only seen @ the beginning, alfred wuz kool. i know it'z generally known that alfred would do n/e thing for his surrogate son, but getting arrested and thrown in jail for him is something i have never seen before. alfred has made jokes before ("i see you have discovered our little secret, yes i am the batman.") and he has given heartfelt talks ("you along the edge of that abyss everynight, but you've never fallen in, and i thank heaven for that"). i liked him here.

scarecrow's design... so kool

robin: he wuzn't used much IMO, but he deserved to be in this ep for its' "climatic" like story. his impetuiousness, and his willing to take out the police to spring nightwing and alfred showed some of his dedication to his allies. you also see his basic dedication to his job since he actually cries when batman tells him to quit.

speaking of nightwing... his role, like robin, wuz limited, but he wuz showcased nicely nevertheless. judging from this ep, when things REALLY get rough w/ the Gotham Knights, u can expect Nightwing to be there. his battles w/ the police looked so smooth and nice-looking. i especially liked his battle in his loft. also, despite the supposed fallout between him and bruce in "Old Wounds" and the "Lost Years" timeline, Dick Grayson still cares for his mentor, since he chose not to give n/e info about him...

the humor wuz funny!!! "If the Bat's on a spree, Wayne must pay the fee." nice "current-events" in-joke. I also liked Harley and the Mad Hatter demanding money and justice, w/ riddler and scarface goin, "YA!"

the story itself wuz quite powerful, and, as said before, wuz done in the intense tradition of the original BTAS style. the animation style wuz great. my only complaint, wuz that nightwing didn't really seem as... BROKEN... over the death of barb... perhaps that wuz a clue to how barbara really felt about Dick and Bruce...

n/e wayz, great, classic ep IMO...

[GL2k2]

This episode is definitely one of the best of all time. It exceeds on all levels to give you action, drama, humor, mystery, intrigue, suspense, all within 22 minutes. It is superior to even some of the BTAS episodes, and that's saying something. If their ever was an advocate to be pushed forward to represent that TNBA was indeed a continuation of BTAS and should have continued further, "Over The Edge" is the proof.

[Calico]

Originally posted by Steven C

I never thought about if he actually knew or not. But in ROTJ, Barbara did say that he knew their secret when they buried Joker.
Did he know at this time that Barb was Batgirl???

He basically said that he understood what she did even though he could not acknowledge it ('cause he's the commish) but that he trusted her. That's my take at least.

[BeastBoyWonder]

yeah, that was how i interpreted it as well...also, we have to keep in mind that the dream was "barbara's biggest fear", so some things that played out in the dream would not have actually happened in "real life". This is why Gordon understands in real life, but didn't in the dream (of course, there was the death, but if Gordon really felt that he could leave it up to Barb to make her own decisions, he wouldn't get as angry with batman). Also, it took "ten minutes" on Barbara's computer for the comish to find out everything in the dream, but in real life Barbara being the computer master that she was probably would have encrypted the data on her computer, or at least had a password that would take longer to crack considering the data being dealt with (their identities) was sensitive. Sometimes things that in real life you know would be impossible happen in dreams without you realizing it while in the dream...possibly like in this case. While this episode is awesome, probably the best of TNBA in general, it is highly improbable that it would occur in "real life" TNBA if Barbara died the way she did.

[Borg4of3]

RagingDrummerboy brings up a point I was thinking about but didn't really know how to word. The scariest and most uplifting part about this episode is that the characters were doing things they would never do. Gordon would never go so insane, never break his concept of the law, never turn on the Batman; and Batman would never just give up and surrender. The awakening scene was great since it showed us that those events would never happen ever. :cool:

Add that to the awesome character scenes, the great use of Bane and Scarecrow, Wayne Manor being invaded, and the sheer appropriate-ness of the title, and you have the episode I am definately voting for in the final Best BTAS episode poll! :D


And does anyone know a good and easy place to upload and share files? I made an 'Over the Edge' Music Video that I'd love to show you guyz if you'd like to see! :D

[BeastBoyWonder]

Yeah, Batman NEVER gives up. Its out of character for him to even accept defeat (see Night of the Ninja). To paraphrase Robin, Batman's not the smartest, strongest, or fastest, but he's the best. He never gives up, even when there's no hope. Its witnessing the murder of his parents that's scarred his psyche and given him this drive to always emerge victorious. The only thing that (temporarily) kept him from being batman was his usage of a gun, which was also related to his parents death. It took something that powerful to get him to quit, and even then he wasn't gone forever.

[Heehaw]

One of the all time greatest. The animation is the best of the entire series and most likely the best of any single episode of any American cartoon there has ever been. If only JL could look like this.

[Steven C]

Originally posted by Calico


He basically said that he understood what she did even though he could not acknowledge it ('cause he's the commish) but that he trusted her

Wow!!! I never thought about it that way, that he can't acknowledge her "work" because hes the commish. Sweet!!!

[Palin Dromos]

This was one of only 2 eps I hadn't seen up until last night. All I can say is that I wish I hadn't know the twist and heard all the hype before hand. But even then it was so very, very cool. Nightwings fight with the cops and Bat's brawl with Bane were beautiful. And I actually still got a bit of a shock, no one had ever said anything about Gordon's acknowledgement at the very end.

Now there's only one ep I havn't seen "Girls Night Out" Though from what I've heard "Over The Edge" is far more important.

One question, was there a reason ever given for the absence of the Joker in this oh-so-pivitol ep? You'd think he'd have something to do with the final fall of the Bat. (His absence did not detract from the ep, I'm just curious)

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Originally posted by Palin Dromos
One question, was there a reason ever given for the absence of the Joker in this oh-so-pivitol ep? You'd think he'd have something to do with the final fall of the Bat. (His absence did not detract from the ep, I'm just curious)

I noticed that while I was watching last night, too. The only thing I can think of is that the Scarecrow's poisons reveal your greatest fears, and that Barbara is more afraid of Batman and her father coming to conflict over her than she is of the Joker. I agree that the Joker's absence didn't detract from the episode, and I can't think of a denouement that would have been better than the one they used with Bane.

The other thing I was idly wondering about at the end of the episode is pretty dumb: who got Barbara out of her costume and into that hospital gown she was wearing in the Batcave? I really can't see any of the other members of the Bat family doing it without a really big "eeeewwww" reaction (though I can imagine Tim volunteering rather vigorously for the privilege =8^).

Anybody have an inside track on how in heaven's name they got the incredible amount of violence in this ep past BS&P? The way Barb literally bounces off the squad car and Bane's grisly execution were pretty explicit, bordering on Return of the Joker intense.

The last point I'll make about the ep is that there were a LOT of computer-generated effects throughout the episode, mostly used to good effect. I hadn't noticed those in TNBA before, but they're not used anywhere near as well in Justice League, IMO.

-- Ed/Ace

[Steven C]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
.

The other thing I was idly wondering about at the end of the episode is pretty dumb: who got Barbara out of her costume and into that hospital gown she was wearing in the Batcave? I really can't see any of the other members of the Bat family doing it without a really big "eeeewwww" reaction (though I can imagine Tim volunteering rather vigorously for the privilege =8^).



You know Bruce is hitting that, so he wouldn't have a prob getting her into the gown.

[Hawk Wing]

Its excellent, but ive seen it WAY to many times.

[JohnStewart-GL]

Originally posted by Steven C


You know Bruce is hitting that, so he wouldn't have a prob getting her into the gown.
Mabey Dick did.

[Bruce Wayne]

Originally posted by JohnStewart-GL

Mabey Dick did.
Then where was he when she woke up? Im guessing its Alfred. Lucky old British man...

[BatKid]

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
The other thing I was idly wondering about at the end of the episode is pretty dumb: who got Barbara out of her costume and into that hospital gown she was wearing in the Batcave? I really can't see any of the other members of the Bat family doing it without a really big "eeeewwww" reaction (though I can imagine Tim volunteering rather vigorously for the privilege =8^).

LOL!!! :D

I hadn't even thought of that until you mentioned it. But if someone were to dress her, I think it would have been Alfred like 'Bruce Wayne' said. But, I could imagine Bruce, Dick and Tim getting tempted to do it themselves. :)

Either way, someone got lucky. ;)

[The_NewCatwoman]

I seem to be one of the very few people who didn't have their original veiwing experience ruined by the internet and spoliers. HA! I say it again, HA!

I enjoyed this, Bruce looked so adorable when he picked up the telephone and was listening to Gordon's rant. The flashback was esquisite, although I will mention, I enjoyed this wayyyyyy more the first two times. I guess since I actually got it on tape this time, it kinda looses it's novelty value.


My favorite part was where Barbara had just fallen, and Scarecrow started laughing, and Batman growled all primal-like and knocked him into the building. I swear I've felt like that all the time!


NEway, I was watching the part where Barbara got knocked off the building, and everything from his stick whipping her across the face to falling all "UGHHH!" style into the police car just screamed pain. And I'm not very good at imagining the pain factor of anything, so hats off to the animators.

Just remember, you have to tell everything about that character's personality with just a few lines, not many can do this appropriately.

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if WB forced Dini to add the "dream" ending.

I'm pretty sure that this was, for all purposes, the way they intended Batman to end, whether or not they ever got there.

Plus it was standard procedure to have a "finale" episode in the middle of a season because of safety reasons. Better to have a finale done and over with, than to plan something big and find out you won't have a job next season.

This wouldn't happen to be an indirect reference at S:TAS, would it? :D

Well this is the first time I've ever seen this episode and I have to say it was excellent. I really enjoyed the episode and for the first time didn't dislike the younger Robin or the TNBA Bat-suit. Overall the ep was intelligent and was really good - I'm glad they finally aired it! Any chance more of the TNBA will be aired? (I didn't have WB so I've missed the majority of these). The only part of the episode I didn't like was the design of the Riddler - terrible what they did to him there. A Five Star effort!

-Joe!

[Spider-Man]

I was always a bit dissapointed in the ending (imagine if it wasn't a dream...wow...it's be quite the twist) but this episode is up there as one of my favorites. The animation by TMS is great, and the computer coloring is good, though sometimes awkward. Plus my favorite line comes from Bane when Goron is dangling over the edge: "Give dear Barbara a kiss". Damn - that's so evil!

[Mr. Peabody]

I hadent seen TNBA in a long time and that was an awsome episode. The ending was kinda wierd

[Caped Crusader]

I gave this episode five stars, and yet, I wish I could've given it something even higher! It is definitely one of the best Batman eps of all-time.

Even though I knew it was probably only a dream when I first saw it ( my first veiwing wasn't ruined by spoilers, either, NewCatwoman :D ), it was still interesting to see what could have happened if this was a real-life situation.


And hats off to TMS, they did a great job with the animation (I agree, Heehaw, if only JL could look like this :( ).


This episode was very well done, and I never get tired of watching it. :)

[Heehaw]

Someone asked how WB got away with the uberviolence of this one. Well, the dream ending is the answer. The fact that it was all a dream pretty much cancels it out. If it had been a non-dream, there's no way it would have passed. No one really gets hurt; thus it's a non-issue. Still, I'm surprised that the car smashing scene was shown in such a graphic manner, dream or no dream.

It's the same concept as the Smurf part of the movie "Donnie Darko". The only reason the creators got away with it, was because of Donnie's little speech at the end of the scene. He corrects his pals, and because of that, the Smurf people let the director keep the scene.

That's my take anyway.

Also, I don't think this episode was ever considered or conceived as a finale. Just a cool little story that needed to be told. Does one really think they would end the series with the death of Batgirl?(assuming it was non-dream).

[Steven C]

Originally posted by Heehaw
Also, I don't think this episode was ever considered or conceived as a finale. Just a cool little story that needed to be told. Does one really think they would end the series with the death of Batgirl?(assuming it was non-dream).

If they wanted to end the series like that, then Bruce would probably be a lot more bitter in Batman Beyond. And he wouldnt be living in that big house anymore, he'll be in hiding forever, or would have eventully given himself up cause Gordon wouldnt give up either. Then no Batman Beyond.

[Jok]

Hi everyone. This is my first post here and I figured to add my 2 cents worth about this episode. Until recently this was my favourite episode (Legends of The Dark Knight is No.1 now).

I'm a UK viewer and Sky have been showing every episode from the start (I don't know if they are in any order) and showed Over the Edge. The trouble is the cut the best part from it when Batgirl smashes into Commissioner Gordon's car. I was really ticked off at that. Luckily I taped it from Irish channel Network 2 so with a bit of fancy editing it looks prett good.

[Bic]

Originally posted by Jok
I'm a UK viewer and Sky have been showing every episode from the start (I don't know if they are in any order) and showed Over the Edge. The trouble is the cut the best part from it when Batgirl smashes into Commissioner Gordon's car. I was really ticked off at that. Luckily I taped it from Irish channel Network 2 so with a bit of fancy editing it looks prett good.

God, I hated that cut!!! I finally recieved my copy that someone recorded for me (I don't have cable; thank god for DSL!), showed it to my friends who had never seen the episode and then *BAM* there's the edit!!! I was devasted, it was like watching BB:RotJ edited all over again! The whole impact of the show, gone, just like that. (another example SW:aNH, Greedo shots first, making Han into a wuss.)

*sigh* I had to go and murder a pint of Ben & Jerry's to ease my suffering. :(

[Stupendous Man]

This was an amazing episode .

I would say this is the best Batman Episode Ive ever seen - EVER.

And I know this isnt a popular opinion , but I love the animation in this episode . I love the TNBA style and the black batman costume.


~

My only question is the Rank intermission. . . were they doing
a top ten ?

When are the other nine being played ... and if Ive allready missed them .. what were the othe 9 episodes ?

[The Penguin]

Wow :eek: this talkback has done more than any of the other talbacks for the return of Batman and Superman thus far! If only we could get a turn-out like this each week. :(




Originally posted by Stupendous Man
My only question is the Rank intermission. . . were they doing
a top ten ?

When are the other nine being played ... and if Ive allready missed them .. what were the othe 9 episodes ?
To answer your question this was the first week, this Sunday will be "Legends of The Dark Knight."

[Caped Crusader]

Originally posted by Bird Boy
The animation was a bit sketchy at times...but, wasn't too bad.





I strongly disagree. I think this episode had some of the best animation of the entire series! But, hey, it's your opinion. :)

[The_NewCatwoman]

Actually there are some parts where the animation was a little sketchy. Like just about every time somebody nodded, except for the Hatter, or when Commission Gordon and Tim were running, they looked like penguins.

And Tim's feet looked like duck flippers.

Nobody get all pissed off, it just bothered me.

Besides, I've always had a problem with Tim's ears. Do they /have/ to be that big? Mickey Mouse would have a case of professional jealousy. :D

[SirLemming]

This episode is amazing, and the internet didn't even come close to ruining it for me. I just didn't look back then... or didn't have the internet... I forgot which. But man, what a great episode. This episode exemplifies everything that's great about the classic Batman, and puts up the best fight when pitted against Batman Beyond. A true drama episode, the characters are really put to the test. I mean, think of Justice League -- at this point, it just CAN'T measure up to this AT ALL! (I'll give it time, I'll give it time.)

As for the "dream" cop-out, it initially puts a damper on things. But just think about it -- it would have closed so many doors if it had really happened. The series would be over, there wouldn't be a Batman Beyond, and everything like Justice League or a movie would have to be confined to some vague time period before "Over the Edge" happened.

[Theking]

Well I saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and my wife who had seen it already was saying that is was all real during the ep. Man I almost hit her when I found out it was a dream.
but was very relieved that is wasn't real.

What a cool ep. I was totally sucked in since I had made sure I didn't know anything about it b4 watching it.

TheKing

[The Penguin]

Welcome back to the talkback thread for The New Batman Adventures episode, Over The Edge. This episode aired earlier this year as part of producer Bruce Timm's Top Ten B:TAS episodes (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=337198). "Over The Edge" was also second place in the World's Finest Best B:TAS episode poll (http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/btas10/btaspoll.htm). This episode airs again today at 3:30 p.m. ET on Cartoon Network.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #097 - Over The Edge
Original Airdate - May 23rd, 1998.

Commissioner Gordon blames Batman for the death of his daughter Barbara, and will stop at nothing to end Batman's reign as Gotham City's Dark Knight.

Comments?

[Frank White]

*****

I was really impressed by Nitewing in this episode, especially when he was doing all those acrobatic moves.

[Bleu Unicorn]

My absolute favorite episode ever! I just love it so much. Infact, to this day it astounds me that it was let on the air -- Barbara falling from the building and hitting the car is just so powerful, it really shocked me that it wasn't editted out.

The episode itself is really just amazing to me. And even though it's a dream, and really a cop out at that (especially since we have "Perchance to Dream" doing the same thing), it really still remains dark and suspenseful and very much a BTAS-ish episode. It really is a good example of what would happen if the Bat-team was unmasked and honestly the reaction seems quite believeable. Commissioner Gordon's reaction really blows me away -- and actually shows the "over the edge" premise quite well with him going to Bane for help. Actually the premise is shown quite a lot throughout the episode, as everyone really does somewhat uncharacteristic things -- Batman just giving up, for example.

It was discussed earlier in this thread, but the idea that Jim knows Babs is Batgirl has always struck me as very interesting. For one, it makes me glad that he wouldn't have to have the reaction she dreamed about, as he pretty much approves even though he can't admit it. But it also gives Barb another person in her corner as Batgirl -- even if he isn't outwardly showing it. I think anyone with a secret identity needs people to be able to relate to both parts of them. If that makes sense -- and if it should be anyone for Barb, it definitely should be her dad. Plus, it's a nice load off of her mind.

Truly a gem for BTAS -- five stars!

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Wow, wow. I'm just utterly speechless by this marvelous episode.

[Killtacular]

I'm still convinced that the dream ending was not the originally intended ending and that this episode WAS how things were supposed to go.

You may be wondering how JL and BB fit into this. Well, they don't. Justice League and Batman Beyond are two competely different universes that only have slight ties to the original series they are rooted in.

[Condiment King]

"How could you?" -Commissioner Jim Gordon

As you can see in the 'Batman, Superman, and Beyond Top Ten' thread, this is my 3rd favorite episode next to the Two-Face two-parter.

This was amazing! It is stunning how an episode like Love is a Croc is three episodes before TNBA. Over The Edge is a masterpiece. I mean, Bane and the Scarecrow. Batman, Nightwing, and Batgirl's secrets revealed. Batgirl is dead. The virtual end of the Bat-family. Wow. Stunning.

Just think, this is the effects of one person taking the fear toxin. That is why I think the Scarecrow is an awesome villian and has real power. Just see Nothing to Fear and Never Fear .

Commissioner Jim Gordon had probably never been more fleshed out as a character ever. Jim seems like a minor, supporting character but I could see if you said that Jim was the star in this episode. The virtual emotion between Jim and Batman brought you into the episode. You could feel the utter disdain expressed by Jim.

The way Robin simply cried that it was coming to an end showed how much he loved his line of work. :D Bruce had given up hope. Bruce Wayne.

IMO, this is the greatest TNBA episode that TNBA has to offer. No doubt. Hands down. This episode showed you that the elseworlds world is a virtual playground. I only wish that more episodes like this were made.

[The Guard]

Lame. Just lame. Batman giving up, Gordon and his cops using bazooka after bazooka after bazooka. The Batboat getting caught by harbor patrol. Because of those things, the old "it's all just a dream" ending has no impact. But the rest of the episode, the things that made sense, rocked. The phone call, Batman and Robin's cavediving, the emotion of Alfred's sacrifice. Some things rang false for me. Gordon making a deal with Bane? Bane surviving electrical impulses like that straight into his brain? A rolling Batsignal ending Batman's life? He'd use a Batgrapple in that situation. It's not like he doesn't have about 20 of them. :). Fun to watch, though.

[Storm]

Now why can't JL have a epsiode like this???

Anyway what a perfect epsiode I love it!!!! Everybody had their share of screentime and Alfred kicked some butt (well tried to anyway :p ) Over the Edge was just one of the best stories wrote by Paul Dini. It's funny how the story began and it makes you think what if Barbara Gordon survived her fall but was parazyled :D EEEHHHH I'm just getting goosebumbs just thinking about it :p Anyway perfect story it's a shame that it had to go back to reality and everything would be peachy again.

I have a question: Why did Timm and Dini call the quits anyway??? I would love for him to do some episodes of JL.

- Storm1288

[pidget bill]

*****

no comment,you people have already said what I would say about this awsome episode! :cool:


Originally posted by The Guard
Lame. Just lame. Batman giving up, Gordon and his cops using bazooka after bazooka after bazooka. The Batboat getting caught by harbor patrol. Because of those things, the old "it's all just a dream" ending has no impact. But the rest of the episode, the things that made sense, rocked. The phone call, Batman and Robin's cavediving, the emotion of Alfred's sacrifice. Some things rang false for me. Gordon making a deal with Bane? Bane surviving electrical impulses like that straight into his brain? A rolling Batsignal ending Batman's life? He'd use a Batgrapple in that situation. It's not like he doesn't have about 20 of them. :). Fun to watch, though.

Well that's really all it was,a Dream.Like ragingdrummerboy said on the first page stuff like that might not have happened if the whole thing had REALLY happened.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Originally posted by The Guard
Lame. Just lame. Batman giving up, Gordon and his cops using bazooka after bazooka after bazooka. The Batboat getting caught by harbor patrol. Because of those things, the old "it's all just a dream" ending has no impact. But the rest of the episode, the things that made sense, rocked. The phone call, Batman and Robin's cavediving, the emotion of Alfred's sacrifice. Some things rang false for me. Gordon making a deal with Bane? Bane surviving electrical impulses like that straight into his brain? A rolling Batsignal ending Batman's life? He'd use a Batgrapple in that situation. It's not like he doesn't have about 20 of them. :). Fun to watch, though.

Those, and some more details, were all unrealistic elements that can be attributed to the fear influencing the contents of Barbara's dream. After all, most of our dreams and hallucinations don't make sense, and don't follow our life's "continuty". I also think this episode was the best TNBA had to offer, even if it was a dream. Barbara's father has been a large part of her life, as we see in "Heart of Steel", "Shadow of the Bat", and other episodes. It's quite interesting that her father was influental in her becoming Batgirl, and yet she's afraid of what his reaction would be if he found out. In a sense, she's doing it for him, but she still feels that he would be horrified if he found out, especially in such a greusome way. Put him into conflict with another major influental character in her life, Bruce Wayne, and suddenly she's scared of the potential situation that could arise from her role as Batgirl. It is natural that she should fear this, and I think it made for an interesting plunge into her mind...

[susan123]

This episode is one of the most intense Batman episodes ever. When I first watched this episode years ago on the WB, it totally convinced me. Only at the end where it showed that Barbara was dreaming that I let go the breath I was holding during the episode. Years later, this episode still stands up--a sign of greatness.

I disagree with some posters who believe that Batman wouldn't give up. First, his secret identity was known to everyone thereby making him ineffectual and secondly, his assets were going to be seized by the police (since he was a fugitive) so he would have no funding to continue to operate. Batman has always known that one day he wouldn't be able to operate anymore. In the episode "I Am The Night", he expressed this doubt to Dick when he said "I've always known I'd go down one day. It might be the Joker or Two-Face or just some punk who gets lucky. My decision. No regrets." To me it made perfect sense that Batman knew it was over and to avoid any harm to Tim, he asked him to turn himself in.

I hope Paul Dini will be writing some JL episodes like this one.

[warmachine04]

The best story of the Gotham Nights series. People ever wonder what would happen if Batman's secret was revealed. I was most impressed with idea of Batman and Gordon becoming enemies after Gordon blames Batman for Barbara's death. Scarecrows and Bane's new look was just the only interesting element of the new series. The villians planning to sue Wayne was a good touch. The battle between Bane and Batman worked well but a bit over the top when Batman recieved a blow. Overall, great episode.

Fav. quote: "If the bat is on the spree then Wayne has got to pay the fee." :D

[Webryder]

At the top of my post, I have to firstly note that Dini was brilliant in how he chose to start this story off. With the Dynamic Duo running thru the cave followed quickly by.... (surprise, surprise) the GCPD, Gordon included, firing in hot pursuit. Right there it lets you know know that this isn't going to be your typical BTAS story which meant from that point on you had NO idea what to expect. :D :D :D

The part where Batman is sitting at Nightwings rendezvous then flashbacks to the events that lead up to why they were running were in hindsight kinda strange. I know Dini wrote it like that to further sell the audience into believing the total reality of everything that was happening in the episode, but how much sense does a flashback in a dream make?

I applaud how much this episode managed to pack into 30 mins because if this had been made into a two-parter, the revelation at the end would've glared even bigger as a cheap cop out. Two-parts would be overkill, stretching believablity way past it's limits. A masterful job in making it a one-episode "what if" by Dini here.

It always bugged me about the lengths the GCPD went thru whenever they were chasing Batman as a suspect in a big crime (as witnessed in MOTP and BB). They went all out in trying to get this one guy with everything they could throw at him. When I see this, I find myself wondering that if they worked this hard to catch every other smart, resourceful, hard-to-catch psychotic (not to say that Batman is psychotic, but I think the thought crosses even Commish Gordon's mind sometimes) that commits a murder, Gotham would be practically crime-free!! :rolleyes:

My personal opinion on the question that if Gordon ever really found out what Barbara was doing, would it really all go down this way?

Hmm....I believe that Gordon would hunt Batman to the ends of the earth and back again looking for vengence for the death of his little girl, just as Batman/Bruce Wayne would do the same if any of his many enemies killed her too.

His injection of humor into the fold with the villains all trying to use the Cochran like lawyer to sue Bruce Wayne was a classic Dini moment, in otherwise very dark material.

Obviously this is one of the best if not the best BTAS right behind Perchance and Ice. Captured my attention and held it thru nonstop pacing and suspense to the very end. :D :D

[David Lucas]

Damn, I'm late on this topic.

This is without a doubt one of the finest examples of animation USA has ever put forth (shut up about the TMS crap hehe) As soon as you see that's it's written by the Batman masters, you KNOW it's gonna be good.

From the second I saw Tim Drake scream out "NO!!!" I knew Barb wasn't gettin saved this time. When she hit Gordon's car?!?! I had a heart attack. My favorite part in the entire episode is when Bruce tries to go console Jim and Bullock pulls a gun on him and in the most serious tone voice I've EVER heard on Batman, says "That's as far as you go murderer."

I loved Bullock, and always thought he deserved to be in more episodes, a lot like Turpin on Superman: TAS, we all know what happened to HIM!

I didn't like the whole Nightwing thing though. If the cops know Bruce is Batman, they OBVOIOUSLY would have known he was at one point Robin, judging by the time in the episode, the cops woulda had ample time to get to his apartment, Dick shoulda seen that coming. Also, the look on his face when he saw the armed helicopters gave you the idea that he was frozen, when the bullets went off, at least ONE shoulda hit him, but then again, this is Batman, all the crusaders have that lil Electro Magenetic Force Field that Fortune had in MGS2: Sons of Liberty, thus enabling bullets to simply zoom by them.

I thought that Bane was BEAUTIFULLY animated, better than anyone I've ever seen on TNBA. His teeth, the eyes, everything was amazing. The last 3 lines I'll say before I head out.

"We had a deal!" "Thought about it, didn't work for me."

"Give your daughter...........a KISS.........for me."

and lastly

"TIME..............TO..........DIE!" ".............you first."

Incredible, if simply attaching the "its all a dream" ending to episodes lets Dini and Timm pull of stuff like this, shoot, they can add that to EVERY episode as long as we get episodes like this.

Don't you ever wonder what it would be like if they made JUST ONE episode with COMPLETE CONTROL and NO RESTRICTIONS. Kind of like a Rated - R / PG-13 Batman? (ROTJ was NOT PG-13 in my book, it was somewhere between PG and PG-13, it was still awesome though.)

Ah well, greatest episode ever, and a wonderful finale. NOW SCREW THE FINALE CRAP, DITCH JUSTIC LEAGUE AND GO BACK TO WORK WITH BRUCE!!

[The Penguin]

"It makes no difference now." - Batman, Over The Edge

I'm finally back to this thread again! I've watched this episode many times since I posted my comments on page 1, but at the time I was so in shock of how great it was that I didn't post many thoughts on the episode. I still loved it and it definitely deserved being one of the top vote-getters in that poll we did last year.

The suspense of this episode starts out strong with Gordon & co. chasing after Batman and Robin. Alfred's sacrifice for his "son" as Bruce and Tim made their escape was very moving. The action just picks up from there as the plot gets thicker and thicker.

One thing I of course didn't notice when I saw it before was The Ventriloquist and Scarface appearing on the talk show. Scarface is gone and Arnold is supposed to be all better. I realize it was a dream, but I refuse to believe Batgirl would dream up stuff that completely contradicted events that had already happened like that.

I watched it with my pal turkish and he felt kinda ripped by the dream ending and I can understand why some feel that way, but that is just about the only way to get this great story. Timm's comments (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=337198) when the episode aired really show this:
"Dramatic. Beautiful. Shocking.
This is the quintessential Scarecrow story, delving into the deepest fears of the main cast by allowing the most daring questions to be asked: What if Batman's identity was exposed and what if one of the Gotham knights fell in battle…"

Many have commented on this episode being further hurt by the fact that we have "been there, done that" with Perchance To Dream, but they are two completely different things. "Dream" deals with how Bruce Wayne reacts to a "perfect world" where he is not Batman. "Edge" could not be said better than Timm's comments above. This episode is all about an extremely not perfect world. Batgirl has died and Batman's identity has been revealed and one of his most trusted allies has turned against him. Bruce Wayne's pain is not alleviated, it has been increased considerably. By the end he doesn't even care.

This is just a great episode, now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go watch it again. ;)

[Raziel]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
I'm still convinced that the dream ending was not the originally intended ending and that this episode WAS how things were supposed to go.

You may be wondering how JL and BB fit into this. Well, they don't. Justice League and Batman Beyond are two competely different universes that only have slight ties to the original series they are rooted in.

yes, there was a batman beyond episode where Barbara had to have Batman tag along with her on a police case because she said that when she was younger and batgirl she was given some of scarecrow's fear toxin and that it stays in her body and has an effect every five or so years. That's a HUGE reference to this episode.

[BeastBoyWonder]

whoa...which BB episode is this?

[susan123]

That is a reference to an issue of the Batman Beyond comic book. It wasn't in the series.

[James Harvey]

That's a HUGE reference to this episode

whoa...which BB episode is this?

Actually there was no episode - it was an issue of the Batman Beyond comic book series. And here's the proof:

http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/sections/comics/guide/batmanbeyond/bbcguide.htm#13

Still, an enjoyable issue!

[BeastBoyWonder]

Thanks, DG! I never even knew a BB comic existed...

[DKstormyknight]

Originally posted by TheScarecrow
And I am glad this turned out to be Barbara's dream, even if some view it as a cop-out. I would've hated this to be how the Bat-team really goes out.

Me too, I liked that it was a dream! This is IMO a 5 stars episode! Even though I knew it was a dream, I really got into the story from start to finish. Good story, great episode! :)

:cool:

[batman_batman]

this episode is defintely the best one. writing is amazing and tms did a great job. and to all of those that think tms doesn't make a difference. just take a look at the batman and bane fight and compare it to the batman and bane fight in "knight time". the one where superman is batman.

[The Penguin]

Tonight at 1 a.m. ET Cartoon Network airs The New Batman Adventures episode, Over The Edge.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #097 - Over The Edge
Original Airdate - May 23rd, 1998.

Commissioner Gordon blames Batman for the death of his daughter Barbara, and will stop at nothing to end Batman's reign as Gotham City's Dark Knight.

Comments?

[Bats2007]

Definately my favorite episode. Ever. The writing was excelent. More drama than I've ever seen in any cartoon. I was practically shaking through the whole episode. Nightwing was definately awesome when he appeared on the jet ski, I wish that action figure was black instead of green. Me, being a huge James Bond fan, was wondering if anyone noticed the similarity to James Bond's Goldeneye (1995) When Sean Bean says "Why don't you be a good boy and die!" Then Pierce Brosnan replies "You first". That was great when Batman said it. Anyways, TT didnt do it for me tonight so Im glad this episode aired.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Daniel~~~~~

[ClockStomper]

I love this episode. Great drama, and raises excellent questions and issues.

Is it really right for Wayne to drag others on his personal crusade?

And speaking of said crusade, Gordon's own in this episode perfectly mirriors Bruce's: when Bruce said "the only way I could keep my sanity was to take matters into my own hands", Gordon replies, "that makes us even." Gordon's crusade to bring down Bruce is the only thing keeping him going in the wake of Barbra's death. This sort of puts Bruce in the place of his parents' killer.

As for the debate on whether Gordon knowing or not, when he talks about Barbra being an adult and not needing his approval, he says "and in this case, I can't [give my aproval]", perhaps meaning that as Commish, he can't offically say so, but he's proud of her as Batgirl.

Although a bit out of place, the Harley gag in this episode was funny when they took a dig at Cochran. Plus, what other oppurtunity did they have for such a scene, since it depended on Batman's secret being out.

[randomguy]

A wonderful and highly suspenseful episode that deconstructs these iconic characters in a fascinating way. Many of them act horribly out of character, but that's the charm, as these are people pushed to their wits' ends.

Of special note is the animation. The Batboat sequence is gorgeous, and easily the best appearance of said vehicle. Everything moves extremely smoothly, and a dynamic moving camera puts you right in the action. And it's cool, after seeing it survive so many chases, to have the Batmobile blown up so quickly and simply.

There are great character moments here. Bruce apologizing to his parents, Nightwing taking on more than a dozen cops at once unarmed, Gordon aiming point-blank at Batman, Alfred saving his master at the last possible second, the Rouges suiing Wayne for damages, and Bane using his last ounce of strength to kill Batman and Gordon. It's just so damn cinematic, you gotta love it. The only character who really doesn't have much to do is poor Montoya, used as little more than somebody for Bullock to talk to. And, obviously, it doesn't get much more ironic than Gordon and Batman losing their lives to the Batsignal. Beautiful.

There are problems, though. I understand the rationale behind the flashback, but I still find it unnecessarily cumbersome and akward. And, yes, the "just a dream" thing is a bit of a cop-out. I would have preferred if we didn't have that ending, and the episode was just treated as an out-of-continuity yarn. Additionally, the little humor there is seems a little out of place in a story this dark. Finally... how can a man as old as Gordon hold on to the side of a building with ONE arm? Have you ever done that? It's trickier than it looks to put all your weight on one harm.

[/stupid fanboy gripe]

Overall, though, this is good stuff.

[oranthal]

Was this the only episode with all 4 members of the Bat team in one episode?

[RKillian]

To answer your question this was the first week, this Sunday will be "Legends of The Dark Knight."

That was probably the most awful episode for any of Warner's DC properties in the past decade.


I'm still convinced that the dream ending was not the originally intended ending and that this episode WAS how things were supposed to go.

I don't know about that. As someone put it in a thread about bookending BTAS, Batman's story has to be ongoing. His mission is the utter and complete elimination of _all_ crime. Having the whole operation come down around him would be just as anti-climatic.

[The Detective]

Bane: A fight to the death?
Batman: It makes no difference now.

*****

I will never forget the first time I saw this episode. This was back before I even had the internet so I had no idea what this thing was even going to be about. I remember that I missed the first couple of minute but when I turned it on I was in utter and complete shock. I couldn't figure how this could be real. Call me stupid but a dream didn't occur to me.

Everything in this episode is perfect. I love the animation, it's so smooth and fluid and the Bane/Baatman fight at the end is beatifully done. The water scene was excellent too. And I loved Nightwing in this episode. And poor Alf, he was great in this episode even if he was only in it for two seconds.

This is without a doubt one of if not my favourite Batman episode ever. So far above the rest of the TNBA it's not even funny and in the top three at least of BTAS episodes.

This is one of the few pieces of animation I've ever seen to have suck drama, tension, thrill. It has everything. A true masterpiece that keeps you on the "edge" of your seat. (pardon the terrible pun I couldn't resist)

The scene with Barb falling on the car is so gripping and powerful. No matter how many times I see it I just can't believe it passes the censors, dream or not. But I'm glad it did and they didn't have it happen off screen. It just gets me every time I see this episode.

And the climatic Bane and Batman fight, wonderful. I almost wish they had had Bane completely concealed in shadows when Gordon made the deal so when Bane ripped through the door it would have been yet another shocker. Anyway I love their fight, especially the dialouge. Like the line I put at the beginning of my post.

Bane: A fight to the death?
Batman: It makes no difference now.

Anyway a beatiful masterpiece. Well earned hard deserving stars.

[Supernovametalstar]

Yay, I finally got a complete version of the episode after five years! I never get tired of watching this episode. It represents so many "what ifs" into the Batman universe that I wish they had explored more(Nightwing being one of them).

Naturally when I saw it for the first time, I didn't think there would be my most hated of endings "it was all a dream", so I thought all this was actually occuring and there was no way to reverse it. Heck, I was still in shock through the whole episode that they showed Barbara hitting the car like that.

This was definately a 5 star, A++++ episode if there ever was one.

[The Penguin]

Tonight at 12 midnight ET, Boomerang aired The New Batman Adventures episode, Over The Edge. This episode will be available on DVD this winter. The current release date for Batman: The Animated Series, Vol. 4 - From The New Batman Adventures is December 6.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tbtnba.jpg

Episode #097 - Over The Edge
Original Airdate - May 23rd, 1998.

Commissioner Gordon blames Batman for the death of his daughter Barbara, and will stop at nothing to end Batman's reign as Gotham City's Dark Knight.

Comments?

[Peter Paltridge]

Without a doubt, this is one of the single most amazing DCAU cartoons ever made. The story of Batman's undoing starts at a believable incident and flows logically, growing even more horrific by the minute. It's extremely well-written and has some of the best TMS animation ever (and to my knowledge has the first use of computers in a Batman toon). I think the extra expense on the little CGI stuff shows that they KNEW what they had and they wanted to make it look as good as possible.

The Detective: I won't forget the first time I saw it either. Back then, my WB affiliate ran Kids WB Saturday Morning programming on Sundays, so I saw "Over the Edge" on its premiere right before going to church. I was one shaken-up well-dressed teenager afterward.

If this is how Barbara dreams, I want to see at least one more of her nightmares. :p

[JSmith]

Quite simply, the most over-rated episode ever. Sure, there's gorgeous animation, but the story is a mess. Everyone is acting out of character throughout the episode. At the end you realize it's because the story is being told through the eyes of Babs and she has romanticized ideals of her father and the man she loves. The biggest stickiing point for me is the whole idea that it's Batman's fault Babs is killed. How? Barbara is an adult when she decides to put on the costume and fight crime. She made that choice herself, fully aware of the risks involved. If she is killed while doing something she herself chose to do as an informed adult, how is that anyone else's fault but her own and the person who killed her? When Bane says, "But what could I expect from a killer of children?" I just cringe. How is Batman a killer? Scarecrow knocked her off the roof. Barbara put herself in danger, Bruce did not order her to fight crime or go after Crane. How is Barbara a child? She is at least out of college at this point. Easily mid-20's. We allow people to make the important decisions that shape their lives at age 18 here in America. That's when you are considered an adult in the eyes of society. So how is she a child, incapable of making the decision to put on tights and risk her life fighting crime, hence making Batman the scapegoat in this whole affair? I know this whole thing is told through Barbara's eyes and it does not accurately reflect how Batman or Gordon would actually behave given Bab's horrific death at the hands of a madman, but the whole idea that she is not responsible for her own choices just really doesn't sit well with me. Great to watch, but the story really is poor.

[ROBOTRON]

THE CREAM OF THE CREAM...


10/10....6 out of 5 stars

I woke up one saturday morning a few years ago and saw this episode coming on...without warning I was taken on a rollercoaster ride, one without limits. I thought to myself, what the heck is going on here??? What has happened?

The next 25 minutes I could not leave the room for breakfast, restroom, phone ringing, doorbell...nothing.

Bravo, gentlemen...a new highwater mark yet to be reached by cartoondom...

:D - rawr!

[warmachine04]

THE BEST EPISODE IN TNBA. FOUR OUT OF FOUR STARS. MOST EXCELLENT.:D :D

[Shadow09]

This was one of my fav BTAS episodes as it was a perfect "what if" scenario that i am sure Bruce thinks about often in what if one of his batman family members were injured/killed and they found out all about Bruce... excellent episode 4.5 out of 5

[SRA]

I like this episode due to it being one of the darkest in the DC timline stories but i find that it does not deserve what it does - Mean Seasons in my eyes beats this!! But i love the batgirl death scene and the way Gordan gets Bane involved!! 4 stars!! :) :evil:

[Link]

Amazing. From all the intensity of the action scenes to the drama of Gordon turning on Batman and Barbara's death to the cutting edge dialogue, this easily is my single favorite episode of Batman ever. Lots of people off it for being a dream, but it's all the intensity and character growth in the dream that matters. Those kickass battles between the Cops and Batman just blew me away. The animation was just plain stunning. Unfortunately I'll have to wait for Vol 4 to see it again, but this episode kicks ass, start to finish. I can't even go to describe the jaw-openingness of Barbara falling to her death and the scenes between her and Gordon. I'd easily call it the best episode in the entire DCAU if it weren't for Mask of the Phantasm.

100/5. I'd love to give it more than that, but I can't think of a big enough number.

[GregX]

Okay, so I just watched this episode on DVD. It is a good episode, I agree, but I never quite understood why it is held in such high regard by, just about everyone. There was always something about it that bugged me, that never sat right with me. Watching it again after all these years, I think I've figured it out.

The ending is a complete cop-out.

And no, I don't mean it being a dream, that was fine. Scarecrow gasses Barb and she sees her worst fear.

I mean when she sits down to talk to her father. It played out more like she was about to tell him she had taken a job as a stripper. Yeah, what Gordon said is true, she's an adult and making her own decisions, she doesn't need his approval.

But, stripping (Yeah, yeah, maybe not the best example, but that's what the coversation was playing out like) is one thing. But what happens if she is tossed off a building, or brutally killed by some nutjob supervillain, and Gordon does find out? I don't think he's going to be okay with it. He might not be making deals with Bane, but it wouldn't end well.

Yeah, it would have changed the story dynamic, but I think the writers should have either let her come out and tell her father she's Batgirl or ended this episode on a completely different note.

[James]

But, stripping (Yeah, yeah, maybe not the best example, but that's what the coversation was playing out like) is one thing. But what happens if she is tossed off a building, or brutally killed by some nutjob supervillain, and Gordon does find out? I don't think he's going to be okay with it. He might not be making deals with Bane, but it wouldn't end well.

Yeah, it would have changed the story dynamic, but I think the writers should have either let her come out and tell her father she's Batgirl or ended this episode on a completely different note.

The implication is she doesn't tell him because he knows. That's the drive of the final scene. So rather than a cop out, the episode goes further to pushing the idea that Gordon knows and is willing to let his girl make her choices - and in turn she will just have to trust his!

[GregX]

The implication is she doesn't tell him because he knows. That's the drive of the final scene. So rather than a cop out, the episode goes further to pushing the idea that Gordon knows and is willing to let his girl make her choices - and in turn she will just have to trust his!Honestly, I never got the whole "Gordon knows" idea, at least not from this episode. Nothing in the episode suggested that he might know.

[Silly McGooses]

I don't think they made it clear at all, in fact I never really got that "he knows" vibe from the end before; I also always assumed he thought she was a stripper or something :anime:

[Bird Boy]

It wasn't blatantly obvious, but you can tell in the way he acts that he knows already. It would have been nice if they dropped a hint in future episodes that he knew, but it's still it never bothered me too much. Though I guess you could say the bit in Return of the Joker about telling Gordon about what had happened at Arkham was kind of a throw back...

The crew of the show talked on the commentary about Gordon knowing, if you wanna hear it from them.

-BB

[Reverend]

It was clear enough to me that he knew.
I forget the exact quote, but he says something to the effect that she "shouldn't need him to acknowledge what she dose in her life and in this case, he can't."
That seamed pretty clear to me.
From that you might also suppose that, not only dose he know what she's doing, but who she's doing it with. That means he knows it's Bruce under the cowl and probably by extension Grayson & Drake's involvment.
I kind of like the idea that he's long since figured it all out and done nothing, I think it does the character a great deal of credit.
I mean Jim Gordon is supposed to be a more than competant detective, he'd have enough pieces to put it together, especially after Barbara got involved. Do you really think he wouldn't recognise his own daughter's voice, body shape, hair & eye color under that mask?

I'm not saying that the creative team intened this, it's just the way I interpret his sideways admission at the end of "over the edge".

[BlueRocketBoy]

When Gordon tells Barbara, "I love you -- all of you," something tells me he doesn't mean, "I love you -- and all of the other stripers, too." It's safe to assume he's talking about Bruce and the others. ;)

[Link]

Okay, so I just watched this episode on DVD. It is a good episode, I agree, but I never quite understood why it is held in such high regard by, just about everyone. There was always something about it that bugged me, that never sat right with me. Watching it again after all these years, I think I've figured it out.

The ending is a complete cop-out.

And no, I don't mean it being a dream, that was fine. Scarecrow gasses Barb and she sees her worst fear.

I mean when she sits down to talk to her father. It played out more like she was about to tell him she had taken a job as a stripper. Yeah, what Gordon said is true, she's an adult and making her own decisions, she doesn't need his approval. I don't get what you mean. Yeah, that ending was a little corny, but heck she had just woke up from a dream about being dead. I dunno. I never thought much of the ending anyways. I based my opinion mainly off of all the good high quality action, animation and violence in the dream sequence.


But, stripping (Yeah, yeah, maybe not the best example, but that's what the coversation was playing out like) is one thing. But what happens if she is tossed off a building, or brutally killed by some nutjob supervillain, and Gordon does find out? I don't think he's going to be okay with it. He might not be making deals with Bane, but it wouldn't end well. Unless I'm mistaken, that was just the point of the episode. Gordon would have actually probably made a deal with Bane and all that stuff out of his frustration. The point of the episode was to show all that intesity that could of never actually happened in a real episode because it'd sort of mess up the series, but to be able to show what it would of been like if it did happen. That's why I enjoy it. It showed all of this intense stuff without actually having happened or changing the story massively.


Yeah, it would have changed the story dynamic, but I think the writers should have either let her come out and tell her father she's Batgirl or ended this episode on a completely different note. The point of the episode was not to have her father learn she's Batgirl, but for the reasons I said above. What would of happened if she did die and her father learned she was Batgirl. Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that's the best I can do.

[Revelator]

If memory serves, Gordon even winks at her. You might have an easier time appreciating this episode after listening to the commentary.

[Jaime_Weinman]

If memory serves, Gordon even winks at her.
Yes, he does, though it's in long shot so the wink isn't immediately obvious. Anyway it is pretty clear that he does know; that's the point of him saying that in this case, he can't acknowledge what she's doing -- he knows the secret, but he can't officially acknowledge that he knows.

[Darknight66]

I never even knew that the ending implyed that Gordon knew who Barbara was

[James]

I never even knew that the ending implyed that Gordon knew who Barbara was
Yeah, it's a subtle one, but once you catch it, it makes the whole episode so much more rewarding.

[Veil1]

I personally got the whole thing about Gordon knowing, but one thing about this ep bugged me(I loved the episode as whole tho). Even though this was a fear induced nightmare, things from Barb's mind should be pretty accurate. So why on earth would she have all the info Jim needed on her computer so readily available. I realize this is just a plot device to rush the story along to Gordon finding out Bruce is Bats, but come on. She is a computer geek, and she should know the dangers of leaving info like this just sitting on a computer that a guy that probably doesn't have that much computer experience could find it. Let alone someone like say, the Riddler. Riddle me that one.

[James]

I personally got the whole thing about Gordon knowing, but one thing about this ep bugged me(I loved the episode as whole tho). Even though this was a fear induced nightmare, things from Barb's mind should be pretty accurate. So why on earth would she have all the info Jim needed on her computer so readily available. I realize this is just a plot device to rush the story along to Gordon finding out Bruce is Bats, but come on. She is a computer geek, and she should know the dangers of leaving info like this just sitting on a computer that a guy that probably doesn't have that much computer experience could find it. Let alone someone like say, the Riddler. Riddle me that one.
Because she's human and prone to error? Because it's her worst fear that she would leave her files open one day and forget to lock up those important files? I think because this is her worst fear, irrational fears will come into play as well, to help the scenerio along. Ever forgotten about an exam in a dream, even though you KNOW you wouldn't in real life? In dreams, when we are negative we are often very negative.. losing clothes, forgetting vital items, being caught in embarassing situations.. seems this is just an extension of this very scenerio.

On the same basis, we are to assume the way Jim acted was her vision of how he would act, rather than true to character. So again, her mind is making things worse for her as the drug takes effect.

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,

Jim Gordon drops at least three hints that he knows about Barb's extra-curricular activities: he states that he "can't" acknowledge what she does with her life (but in a plausible deniability sort of way rather than a "I can't believe this" kind of way); he mentions "all of you" to her, suggesting that he knows that whatever it is she's doing, she's not doing it alone; and he winks at her right before stating, "And that's all I have to say about that." It was pretty clear that he was saying he knew her little secret when I saw the episode for the first time.

And I still say that the REAL most disturbing thing about the episode is deciding which of the three boys at Wayne Manor was the one who got Barbara out of her costume and in the hospital gown she wakes up in ;).

-- Ed/Ace

[Bleu Unicorn]

And I still say that the REAL most disturbing thing about the episode is deciding which of the three boys at Wayne Manor was the one who got Barbara out of her costume and in the hospital gown she wakes up in ;).
Men, you always have your minds in the gutter. Uhm, and don't you mean four? (Though, just between us, I'm more disturbed with the idea of it being Alfred.)

Anyway, Ace and BB said everything that I was already thinking. There are a few subtle clues in the episode itself, and they were enough for me when I first viewed it. And the little line in ROTJ as well. *shrugs*

[Bird Boy]

Actually her hospital gown was discussed on the commentary as well. They laughed at how her suit was folded perfectly by her bed and then someone mentioned how Alfred "was a gentleman" and didn't look or something.

All for laughs of course, but if you want an official answer you can break it out of context. :p

-BB

[JLU Dude]

Actually her hospital gown was discussed on the commentary as well. They laughed at how her suit was folded perfectly by her bed and then someone mentioned how Alfred "was a gentleman" and didn't look or something.

All for laughs of course, but if you want an official answer you can break it out of context. :p

-BB
They also mentioned that as a possibilty that one of them called Leslie Thompkins.;) :p

[Alex Weitzman]

They also mentioned that as a possibilty that one of them called Leslie Thompkins.;) :p
Darned Leslie. Always ruining everybody's fun. :D

[D.Shaffer]

And I still say that the REAL most disturbing thing about the episode is deciding which of the three boys at Wayne Manor was the one who got Barbara out of her costume and in the hospital gown she wakes up in ;).-- Ed/AceTo quote Terry..."Whoa" :D

[Ed Liu]

Howdy,


Men, you always have your minds in the gutter. Uhm, and don't you mean four? (Though, just between us, I'm more disturbed with the idea of it being Alfred.)
Really, I don't think there's any way you win this scenario. I was also assuming that Nightwing (who's probably the only one I think could undress Batgirl without it being weird) wasn't at the manor, unless there's a fourth guy over there that I forgot about.

Amusing that b.t. and co commented on it during the commentary, though. I really gotta get my copy of Vol. 4...

-- Ed/Ace

[Eddie G.]

Quite simply, the most over-rated episode ever. Sure, there's gorgeous animation, but the story is a mess. Everyone is acting out of character throughout the episode. At the end you realize it's because the story is being told through the eyes of Babs and she has romanticized ideals of her father and the man she loves. The biggest stickiing point for me is the whole idea that it's Batman's fault Babs is killed. How? Barbara is an adult when she decides to put on the costume and fight crime. She made that choice herself, fully aware of the risks involved. If she is killed while doing something she herself chose to do as an informed adult, how is that anyone else's fault but her own and the person who killed her? When Bane says, "But what could I expect from a killer of children?" I just cringe. How is Batman a killer? Scarecrow knocked her off the roof. Barbara put herself in danger, Bruce did not order her to fight crime or go after Crane. How is Barbara a child? She is at least out of college at this point. Easily mid-20's. We allow people to make the important decisions that shape their lives at age 18 here in America. That's when you are considered an adult in the eyes of society. So how is she a child, incapable of making the decision to put on tights and risk her life fighting crime, hence making Batman the scapegoat in this whole affair? I know this whole thing is told through Barbara's eyes and it does not accurately reflect how Batman or Gordon would actually behave given Bab's horrific death at the hands of a madman, but the whole idea that she is not responsible for her own choices just really doesn't sit well with me. Great to watch, but the story really is poor.
(A) It was a dream, so who cares?
(B) You're thinking of things through logic and I really hate when people get pissed off because characters don't act logical. We're stupid animals that go by instincts and preconcieved notions. In this episode Gordon saw his daughter die and then discovered that his bestfriend had kept a secret about his daughter from him, a secret that lead to her death. You can't expect him to think logically and objectively about it.
(C) The actual Gordon knows that Babs is Batgirl and treats the situation just like you think that he should.

[James]

(A) It was a dream, so who cares?
(B) You're thinking of things through logic and I really hate when people get pissed off because characters don't act logical. We're stupid animals that go by instincts and preconcieved notions. In this episode Gordon saw his daughter die and then discovered that his bestfriend had kept a secret about his daughter from him, a secret that lead to her death. You can't expect him to think logically and objectively about it.
(C) The actual Gordon knows that Babs is Batgirl and treats the situation just like you think that he should.

That's precisely how I feel Eddie. The extreme challenges to the character status quo we expect in TNBA is what makes it compelling - seeing the characters have to act in way we've never encountered and while it seems their behaviour is excessive, it somehow has a ring of truth to it. People do make bad calls when they are emotionally broken.. one is left wondering "is this really how Gordon would behave?"

Of course we find out it's how Barbara FEARS Gordon would behave. I think that's really quite deep and sensitive in the writing. It takes a character often percieved by TNBA to be shallow and shows such a deep hearted and REAL fear. If you were in her shoes, who wouldn't be certain of how their role could upset the status quo? How it could destroy everyone? That her death could cause her beloved father to go over the edge like so many in Gotham.

The end is the icing. Not only do we get the clever resolution to show the readers this is unlikely to happen because he already knows what she's doing - something that I think strengthens Gordon's integrity considerably, it also shows how our fears can cloud what we know to be true about our loved ones.

The dream is very clever. It really does expand on human fear rather than the standard Scarecrow superficial fear inducements (fear of heights/bats/chicken livers etc).

Furthermore, I find what is most disturbing, is I never truely feel that there is a definitive resolution. Gordon makes it clear what he knows about Babs, and we get the underlining implication, that he would never act in such a way.. that this is just all a very human extreme fear Barb has projected. But no one can ever be sure... Fear does extreme things. As does pain. Could Gordon break like that? I'm always left with the happy feeling knowing the shows message is it's just a FEAR induced dread yet slightly uncertain as whether in actual fact, such extreme situations might push even a man like Gordon "over the edge".

[JSmith]

Trying to whitewash the story aspects that make no sense by saying "it's a dream" is a very weak argument to make. The other dream episode, Perchance to Dream, had a much stronger story and handled the dream aspect far better. Alfred acted like Alfred. Bruce acted like Bruce. Selina acted like Selina. They did not make the players act out of character because they were not in the real world. Over the Edge just makes no sense. If your daughter was killed, wouldn't you go after the person who actually killed her? Why didn't Gordon go after Scarecrow? He could have called in every favor he was owed to get Crane deemed sane and responsible for his actions. He could have manipulated the system to see the Scarecrow hanged. Instead we get a story where Gordon inexplicably blames Batman for Babs' death. Why? How is he to blame? I know that the Commish is only acting as his daughter fears he would, but it's so out of character that it comes off as unbelievable. I still enjoy this episode quite a bit, for it's wonderful animation if nothing else, but there are far stronger episodes than this and it does not deserve the accolades that it garners. Just my 2 cents.

[The Penguin]

If your daughter was killed, wouldn't you go after the person who actually killed her? Why didn't Gordon go after Scarecrow? He could have called in every favor he was owed to get Crane deemed sane and responsible for his actions. He could have manipulated the system to see the Scarecrow hanged. Instead we get a story where Gordon inexplicably blames Batman for Babs' death. Why? How is he to blame? I know that the Commish is only acting as his daughter fears he would, but it's so out of character that it comes off as unbelievable. I still enjoy this episode quite a bit, for it's wonderful animation if nothing else, but there are far stronger episodes than this and it does not deserve the accolades that it garners. Just my 2 cents.Grief makes people do funny things sometimes, many of which cannot be explained. The loss of a child and especially your only child is something that no one can prepare for or even think about. It's not something that a person approaches calming or logically.

I believe I knew the episode was a dream the first time I watched it, but I had no trouble believing that Gordon blamed Batman for Barbara's death, misplaced blame or not. He allowed Batman to operate outside the law, stuck up for him when others wanted him stopped and because of that his daughter joined the team and died in his arms. If there was no Batman, there would be no Batgirl.

"...Like a fool I allowed you to run wild on your private crusade. A psychotic misfit playing masked hero. Now I've paid for it with Barbara's life"

[DisneyBoy]

The "I love you - ALL of you" line, to me, sounded more like an awknowledgement of all the sides of Barbara's life and identity. He loves everything about his daughter, Batgirl included. Mentionning that he loves the others in the Bat team seems like a bit of a stretch/assumption. The line's pretty clear in letting Barbara know that she's not doing a thing her father disapproves of, or can't respect.

Most of Gordon's dialogue to Babs actually sounds like more of the type of thing a loving parent would say to their recently "outed" son or daughter. That's what makes it so touching, in my mind anyway. Sure, Babs isn't gay...but the acceptance she gets from her Dad is so universal that it carries the same kind of emotional weight as if her sexuality happened to be the topic at hand.

I really wasn't thinking "stripper" LOL!

[Darknight66]

The only thing that bugged me about the episode was that Nightwing was never there when Batgirl woke up , I mean I find it hard to believe that he didn't care enough about Batgirl to show up at Wayne manor, assuming Bruce acctualy told him about what happened

[JSmith]

My only point is that this episode is not deserving of the "Best......Episode.....Ever" title due to the out of character portrayals of the main players. Gordon blames Batman for his daughter's death instead of Scarecrow. Why? How does this make any sense? If Batman was not around, Babs might have become WeaselWoman instead of Batgirl, but she still would be out there fighting crime. Batman, the character who never gives up, not only gives up entirely, but agrees to a fight to the death with Bane. Batman never kills, so this is out of left field. The characters have to act like themselves in order for the episode to be believable. Say we had a similar story, only in this one Alfred is brutally murdered. This unhinges Bruce and he decides to get rid of the criminal element in Gotham once and for all. First, it's a bloody battle to the death with the Joker. Then he starts hunting down and killing the heads of the major crime families. By the end, he's got the flamethrower out and he's having a major weenie roast at Arkham Asylum, killing residents and employees alike. Alfred is jarred from his dream by this horrible vision. He realizes that he absentmindedly swapped his usual Earl Grey tea for a cup of Sleepytime Chamomille and this is what brought on the nightmare: a horrific fantasy of Alfred's fears come to life. He's always dreaded Bruce falling into the pit of darkness that he stares into every night. Now, would this be a good story? Even given beautiful TMS animation and mindblowing fight scenes, this would still be a dud cuz Bruce is completely out of character. It might make a fun Elseworlds, but surely would not be one of the best ever. Over The Edge is an enjoyable episode, but it is not top 10 material.

[James]

My only point is that this episode is not deserving of the "Best......Episode.....Ever" title due to the out of character portrayals of the main players. Gordon blames Batman for his daughter's death instead of Scarecrow. Why? How does this make any sense? If Batman was not around, Babs might have become WeaselWoman instead of Batgirl, but she still would be out there fighting crime. Batman, the character who never gives up, not only gives up entirely, but agrees to a fight to the death with Bane. Batman never kills, so this is out of left field. The characters have to act like themselves in order for the episode to be believable. Say we had a similar story, only in this one Alfred is brutally murdered. This unhinges Bruce and he decides to get rid of the criminal element in Gotham once and for all. First, it's a bloody battle to the death with the Joker. Then he starts hunting down and killing the heads of the major crime families. By the end, he's got the flamethrower out and he's having a major weenie roast at Arkham Asylum, killing residents and employees alike. Alfred is jarred from his dream by this horrible vision. He realizes that he absentmindedly swapped his usual Earl Grey tea for a cup of Sleepytime Chamomille and this is what brought on the nightmare: a horrific fantasy of Alfred's fears come to life. He's always dreaded Bruce falling into the pit of darkness that he stares into every night. Now, would this be a good story? Even given beautiful TMS animation and mindblowing fight scenes, this would still be a dud cuz Bruce is completely out of character. It might make a fun Elseworlds, but surely would not be one of the best ever. Over The Edge is an enjoyable episode, but it is not top 10 material.

You're missing the point. :)

All these actions are based around BARBARA's worst fears, not character accuracy. Barbara is hardly likely to fear her death would push Gordon to capture or even kill Scarecrow MORE than he turning his attention to the person he feels betrayed by.

The fear in this story is based around guilt. The guilt of secrecy, the fear of the reprocussions of her choices on those she cares and loves. It's not about being accurate in a real life sense. That's what makes this episode so great, it's VERY consistent, building a dream around Barbara's key concerns and fears.

The reason this is more interesting than - forgive me - your tale (and I know it's a gag), is because it centers on a character dynamic which hasn't been explored as such. We know the risks to Batman's life. We know how he deals with tragedy through the element that brough Batman to life. What has not been dealt with in the cartoon is Barbara's role in this group and her tightrope she walks between Father and mentor.

Considering people slam TNBA for Barbara's character being weak and the show being more action orientated, this episode goes against that very perspective. Barbara's situation and fears are aptly handled, with insight and maturity. We'd all accepted Barbara as part of the Gotham nightlife, but it's rare for a cartoon to give further insight into the deep insecurities of a side character.

[JSmith]

Hmm....you make a very good point SJJ. Some part of Babs must always be worrying about, "What would Daddy think if he knew I was Batgirl?" I think this works even better knowing that Barbara is in love with Bruce at this point. Dad's never think that the guy who marries their little girl is good enough for them. Imagine if that man actually got your daughter killed. Bravo! You have got me convinced that it is acceptable for Gordon to blame Bruce for Babs' death, at least in her mind. I think the best part of this episode is the end where Gordon shows that he's no fool. He knows who Batgirl is and I think he's known who Batman is for a very long time too. Thanks for your insight!

[James]

Hmm....you make a very good point SJJ. Some part of Babs must always be worrying about, "What would Daddy think if he knew I was Batgirl?" I think this works even better knowing that Barbara is in love with Bruce at this point. Dad's never think that the guy who marries their little girl is good enough for them. Imagine if that man actually got your daughter killed. Bravo! You have got me convinced that it is acceptable for Gordon to blame Bruce for Babs' death, at least in her mind. I think the best part of this episode is the end where Gordon shows that he's no fool. He knows who Batgirl is and I think he's known who Batman is for a very long time too. Thanks for your insight!

No probs. It's a good episode, and I'm glad if this debate has probably given it more longevity for you.

I agree, I think the other good aspect to this episode is it gives Gordon one of the best epilogues of the series and gives him a little more depth than most cartoon cops ever get!

[Beyond Batman]

Over the Edge is one of my favorite episodes. Sure, a lot of people hold it in high regard, but you can't please 'em all... right?

I think the ending was suitable. The episode, within twenty-two minutes, is a roller coaster, and ending the episode with a heart-felt moment between a father and his daughter was absolutely perfect. Not a cop-out.

The ending was left on an ambiguous note. Many people want to beleive Gordon already knows, yet there are others who say her secret is still kept. Really, the ending is decided by the viewer. In my opinion "Over the Edge" is a homerun.

[Caswin]

I saved this episode for last, and just watched it for the first time about half an hour ago, at 10:45 with all the lights turned off. I know I don't have the same license to gripe, it being ten years after the fact and everything, but if only I hadn't already known who it was...

Where was I? Oh, yes. To date, I've only used 'incredible' to describe one episode: Epilogue. It applies here, too. It's an all-too-apt nightmare scenario. The assault on the Batcave. Systematic defeat of the heroes by their greatest ally with an uncharacteristic rage that turns out to make perfect sense.

And in the end, the final fight, the Batsignal is used for at least three different non-Batsignal purposes. I doubt I'm alone when I say this: Nightmare-mode Bane is scary. I don't like it when Joker or Batman get up from a hit that should've been lethal, but the thing with Bane is, I can actually believe it. Gordon may never really set a plan like this in motion, but if a master planner like, oh, Scarface were still alive... well, good thing for all concerned that he's not. I almost shudder right now, remembering the Batsignal roll, just as things seem to be going Gordon and Batman's way for once...

Let's skip to the epilogue. Writing. Development. Emotion. Revelation. "All you need to know is that I love you. All of you." When I saw that, I said out loud, "He knows."

Best TNBA ever? Well, it was a cop-out, no way around that, but I personally find it personally find superior to that of Perchance to Dream in a few ways - better foreshadowing and no question of why the mask stayed on. Beyond that little bit? Incredible. Simply wowing. It had everything, and I do mean everything. Anyone who's seen it knows what I mean.

I think Mad Love is still my favorite episode of this particular run. But even if it happened to be made in the middle of the first season, I'm evidently in agreement with a few other users that this would have made one awesome series finale.

5/5

YOU DO NOT KILL BANE
BANE KILLS YOU!!
- adapted from Madness Combat V: Depredation. Seemed fitting.

[Cortez2301]

An amazing episode!One of the top 10 episodes of the DCAU!I loved it so much,it was just chilling and suspenseful.Bane's appearance was outstanding.I gave it 5/5.

[Wolf Boy2]

Gordon may never really set a plan like this in motion, but if a master planner like, oh, Scarface were still alive... well, good thing for all concerned that he's not. I almost shudder right now, remembering the Batsignal roll, just as things seem to be going Gordon and Batman's way for once...
Scarface was alive in her dream, lol.

[Zabuza]

i remember watching this episode when i was 10. it creeped me out. thats why i love it. :D

[Tinytooncrazy]

I love thsi it really desvering of the 10 I love the animation , the assult on the bat cave , Gordon releasing Bane , the villains trying to sue for damges to them , Barbara fallling , Scarcrow in this was much more mencing then the joker in this series and I like his redesign it makes him look more scary. I like the funeal scene , batsiginal getting destored and the final battle between Bane and Batman also like scene between Batman and Gordon as they go down. I gusseed it be a dream but its still a great show and the final shot between Babs and her father is great too and they did propbly call Leisle to help with the medical treatmen and also I think her father does know what she does but keeps it to himself. I did wonder if he knew or not. Anyway this gets 10 stars from name for the animation the story and the acting

[Michael24]

I think this is easily TNBA's best episode and showed what could be done when the series used all its potential. The pacing, the action, the music, the acting, everything is top notch in this episode. First time I saw it (last year, actually), I could not believe how much the producers got away with. The violence is unreal. The part where Batgirl's body slams into the police car at full speed made me cringe in pain.

Awesome episode.

[jpb681991]

Did the Gotham city police brake the law in Over The Edge in the beginning? I know Batman was a vigilante but still they allowed him to fight crime? The Gotham City Police had no right to stop him in the beginning. Why didn't Gordon get arrested when he hired Baneto take out Batman? Batman said that it was an affect by the Scarecrow? Did that mean that Barbara just dreamed it?

[Bird Boy]

Yes, all of "Over the Edge", up until Barbara wakes up screaming in the Batcave, is all Barbara hallucinating it. Thus, who broke what law doesn't matter.

-BB

[ShadowStar]

Without a doubt the greatest episode of TNBA and one of the top 10 best of the DCAU. :D I love this episode so much, and watching it again on DVD just now reminded me just how brutally effective the story is, with the plot marking a massive turning point for the series (I am, of course, talking about the final scene, but the whole thing was a godsend).

You know, TNBA initially didn't air in the UK; we got season 1 of S:TAS and "World's Finest", but after that it was onto Batman of the Future (Batman Beyond) :( . Anyway, I had given up all hope of seeing these stories until a few years ago (I think it was around the time JL season 1 was finishing), when I saw the Sky One listings in my TV guide; at 7am, Batman was on! And the episode was "You Scratch my Back"! With Nightwing! :eek: Once I read this, I knew I had to tune in.

Unfortunately, I only caught the final 10 seconds of "You Scratch my Back", and I missed a couple of others later down the line like "The Ultimate Thrill", oh yeah, and they weren't repeating them (not even once) :sad: , but I made my best effort to see as many as I could.

I was a little down in the dumps after I missed "The Ultimate Thrill", as I was positive that I would probably never see these episodes again, so I sat down solemnly the morning after I missed it, hoping that the best was yet to come.

And it was. OH. MY. G--. How much ass did "Over the Edge" kick?! :eek: :D Like someone else said in some other board (possibly the official poll), it just grabbed me by the throat from the first second and wouldn't let go. How would I describe it? Perfection. :)

No, I can do better than that. There must be better words to describe the brilliance of "Over the Edge"; we just haven't come up with them yet. I can't even begin to describe how shocked I was by the episode; I was struggling to breathe and my heart was in my throat. :sweat:

The siege of the Batcave. Alfred's sacrifice. Nightwing's entrance. Barbara's tear-jerker swansong. Gordon's telephone speech (scratch that - ALL of his lines). The end of the Gotham Knights. Harley Quinn (I can't believe anyone has the nerve to moan about that scene; I for one was hoping we'd see the villains try to twist events to their advantage in a cunning and canniving way). Bane. The Bat-signal explosion. The final scene. :cool:

Just like "Perchance to Dream", "Starcrossed" and many other DCAU gems, this is the A+ that defines all A+'s. If only all television was so good. :sad:

A million stars. :o Oh - I mean 5.

[James Harvey]

Featured on the new Batman: Gotham Knight DVD and Blu-Ray release (DVD Talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=213378), feature talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=213377)), discuss this classic Batman: The Animated Series episode!


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/episodes/12overtheedge/16.jpg

Episode #097 - Over The Edge
Original Airdate - May 23rd, 1998.

Commissioner Gordon blames Batman for the death of his daughter Barbara, and will stop at nothing to end Batman's reign as Gotham City's Dark Knight.

Comments?

[Love4ever]

An TNBA "Over the Edge" question?

I want to get peoples views on this. If this question has been posted here before, then delete the post since i haven't been here for a while. I heard complients from some fans that the ending to the Over The Edge episode was very dissapointing to them for some reason, even though they thought the rest of the episode was great. I thought the episode was one of the best they ever did, including Growing Pains.

I remember for the first time seeing that episode when I was 10 years old, how exciting & thrilling it was but I didn't like when I saw batgirl dieing and whole bat family splitting up, two of them put in jail and Gordon with a heart full of revenge againist Bruce. I was so gald that this nightmre was only a awful dream that Barbra had. Why were some of the fans dissapointed with the ending? Did they want such a sad plot to offically become the continuty of the TNBA series :confused: ? It would so sad if Barbra really died, never came back and Gordon forever hating batman, they would have liked THAT????? Not me :mad: !! Any other thoughts??

[dark knight 90]

I agree... it's one of the best episodes ever produced within the show, both in terms of story and animation...

Then the ending occurs, and we find out it was all a dream/ nightmare, concocted by Scarecrow's fear toxin. Personally, I have no problem with this ending, as we do get a really sweet moment between Jim and Barbara and overall it's a really well done 'what-if?' story.


For some fans however, the ending is a blatant and lazy rip-off of the episode 'Perchance to Dream'... which also did the whole it was just a dream thing. For some that episode did it first and... did it better. Perhaps 'Over the Edge' is seen a a carbon copy and produced only for shock value. I really don't know.

[Donomark]

I don't know if people were mad that it WAS a dream, but the idea that the dream was the whole reason behind feels like a cliche.

I agree, what kind of madman would WANT all that stuff to really happen? But the dream feels like a cop-out at the last minute. I think people wanted a better reason why none of it actually happened.

[ABrown]

I wasn't upset at all with the ending to the episode. I had this episode listed in my top five Batman episodes of the BTAS/TNBA episodes. I look at this as just a "what if?" episode. I mean half way through this episode, I think it's pretty clear that this can't be reality. On the other hand, it might've been interesting to have Bruce have to abandon his life as "Bruce Wayne" and just be forced to live his entire life as Batman.

[Ed Liu]

Are there people disappointed with the ending? If there was an episode that justified the "it was all just a dream/nightmare" plot trope, it was this one.

And I still say (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=2016937&postcount=99) the most upsetting thing about the whole episode is deciding which of the boys at Wayne Manor was the one who got Barb out of her costume and into that hospital gown ;).

-- Ed

[Silverstar]

I've never heard anything about anyone being angry, upset or disappointed by "Over the Edge". Judging by the feedback that I've read off the various boards I've been on over the years, that episode seems to be a favorite among viewers.

[Temple Fugate]

Sometimes it's the simplest devices that can be the most effective. Given everything else in the episode, the "This Is All a Dream" gimmick can be easily forgiven. We otherwise never could have gotten a chance to explore the fascinating question "What would happen if Barbara died on the job and the truth about Batman was exposed?"

Furthermore, we still get a small bit of real-world development at the end. Fans now have evidence that hints to Gordon's knowledge AND ACCEPTANCE that Barbara is Batgirl. That's a topic we're still going to be debating for a long time.

I would rather have the episode we got than have the producers nix the episode altogether just because they couldn't come up with a more creative plot device than Scarecrow's fear toxin.

[ABrown]

Fans now have evidence that hints to Gordon's knowledge AND ACCEPTANCE that Barbara is Batgirl. That's a topic we're still going to be debating for a long time.

I've heard this before that Jim stopped her from saying what she was going to say because he does know that she is Batgirl. I can't get on board with that. I don't think that he knowingly would allow her to be Batgirl. And if he did know that she was Batgirl, I think it would be pretty easy for him to figure out who Batman is. And I just can't see him knowing who either one is.

[Michael24]

I'm generally against all "just a dream" episodes of any show because it typically does always seem like a cop-out. But when it exudes as much awesomeness as "Over The Edge" does, it's really hard to complain. IMO, it's the highlight of TNBA and proves that when the episodes were good, they were really good.

The first time I saw it was quite some time after it aired, since I didn't see much of TNBA during its original run. I caught it after the first few minutes, and while I thought it was action-packed and intense, I was completely confused as to why it was all happening. All I could think was, "Wow! Timm and Co. created a helluva series finale." Haha!!!! The animation, the acting, the music, everything was top notch. It's one of the few TNBA episodes that I watch with any regularity. A solid four stars from me. :)

[Ed Liu]

I've heard this before that Jim stopped her from saying what she was going to say because he does know that she is Batgirl. I can't get on board with that. I don't think that he knowingly would allow her to be Batgirl. And if he did know that she was Batgirl, I think it would be pretty easy for him to figure out who Batman is. And I just can't see him knowing who either one is.

My earlier post notes the three separate hints that Gordon drops at the end of the episode that he knows what Barb is doing with her evenings, and who she's doing it with. I looked at it as Gordon telling her that he knows what's happening and he approves of it, but he can't really acknowledge it and doesn't want to know any details. He is still the Commissioner and Batman still technically operates outside of the law, so even though he approves, he just doesn't want to know. Gives him plausible deniability in the event that comes up.

This is one of those plot points that I can fully get behind, since Gordon is a good cop and he's not stupid. It's like the stories that say Lois Lane figured out who Clark is behind those glasses, and deliberately let him play his little game until he was ready to come clean on his own. She's doing it for different reasons, but the core idea is more or less the same.

-- Ed

[ABrown]

It's like the stories that say Lois Lane figured out who Clark is behind those glasses, and deliberately let him play his little game until he was ready to come clean on his own. She's doing it for different reasons, but the core idea is more or less the same.

Really? I see Lois knowing Clark's secret as a world of a difference from Jim knowing Bruce and Barbara's secret. I mean has it ever been stated by the creaters that in that scene Jim does know Barbara's secret? I'm gonna have to watch that episode with the commentary to see if Bruce Timm and co. say that he does know. Cause if that is the case, then I'll gladly put an end to my argument.

[b.t.]

R I mean has it ever been stated by the creaters that in that scene Jim does know Barbara's secret? I'm gonna have to watch that episode with the commentary to see if Bruce Timm and co. say that he does know. Cause if that is the case, then I'll gladly put an end to my argument.

don't remember if we explicitly said it on the commentary or not -- but for the record, daddy definitely knows.

[Wolf Boy2]

Really? I see Lois knowing Clark's secret as a world of a difference from Jim knowing Bruce and Barbara's secret. I mean has it ever been stated by the creaters that in that scene Jim does know Barbara's secret? I'm gonna have to watch that episode with the commentary to see if Bruce Timm and co. say that he does know. Cause if that is the case, then I'll gladly put an end to my argument.
Yeah, they confirmed it.

A good rule of thumb in the Timmverse is that if it seems obviously true, it probably is. The creators seem to take their shows at face value and put no stock in fanon (for example, connections between Teen Titans and the DCAU).

Jim's dialog and body language were obvious -- he cut her off in mid-sentence and winked. He WINKED. In the commentary, Timm and co. didn't even address the scene as a possibility, but as the blatant fact that "he knows." One of them (I think it was Timm) even commented that the real surprise ending is not the dream angle but the fact that Gordon knows she is Batgirl.

Also, the scene exists to prove why the dream scenario would never happen. Gordon knows she is Batgirl and respects her choices. If she died, he would be devestated but he would not blame Bruce or accuse him of murder. If he doesn't know she's Batgirl, than the whole ending scene is pointless.

Also, why else would he interrupt her? What kind of father wouldn't want to know about his daughter's life? But the clencher is his statement that he doesn't have "to approve or even acknowledge [her descisions]," adding that, "in this case [he] can't."

Gordon. Knows. PERIOD.

[Wonderwall]

Some people just don't like the concept of the "only a dream" types of episodes some shows do. The DCAU did it 3 times( off the top of my head ) and all 3 times they were amazing episodes, so to just write them off because they were just dreams is just crazy to me, although I've never heard anyone complain about said episodes before.

[Temple Fugate]

That's a topic we're still going to be debating for a long time.

don't remember if we explicitly said it on the commentary or not -- but for the record, daddy definitely knows.
...Or maybe we aren't. :sweat:


Gordon knows she is Batgirl and respects her choices. If she died, he would be devestated but he would not blame Bruce or accuse him of murder. If he doesn't know she's Batgirl, than the whole ending scene is pointless.Actually, I had a satisfying way of looking at it no matter what Gordon knew. Even if he didn't know that she was Batgirl, he'd know something was up with her. But he trusted that she wasn't doing anything misguided or evil. If a scenareo like Barbara's dream unfolded, Gordon wouldn't lash out at Batman like he did. He would accept that he was okay with whatever his daughter was doing behind his back.

But yeah, looking at the ending to the ep again, he does hit it harder on the head than I remember. If he said all those things and then DIDN'T truly know she was Batgirl, he'd come accross as being really out of touch with his daughter.

[Wolf Boy2]

When I was 11, I completely missed the innuendo about Gordon knowing. I hated the ending, because I thought it was a cop-out. It struck me as VERY stupid and contrived that Gordon would cut her off and not let her tell him. The ending seemed so stupid that I completely forgot about the episode, even though I could still quote BTAS episodes that I saw when I was much younger.

I didn't finally understand the scene until I saw it on DVD at age 18. Then it all made sense. It's sad that it took me seven years to understand that ending. :sweat:

[Hanshotfirst113]

Couldn't this be merged with the talkback?

[suss2it]

Really? I see Lois knowing Clark's secret as a world of a difference from Jim knowing Bruce and Barbara's secret. I mean has it ever been stated by the creaters that in that scene Jim does know Barbara's secret? I'm gonna have to watch that episode with the commentary to see if Bruce Timm and co. say that he does know. Cause if that is the case, then I'll gladly put an end to my argument.

Gordon is too good a detective to not know Bruce = Batman. Here I got a quote from Batman: Hush (I know it's not related to the DCAU, but the same concept can be applied)

"Perry White is too good of a reporter not to have discovered Clark's identity, but he acts otherwise. It reminds me of Commissioner Gordon back home..."

[Alph]

The main problem I have with "Dream" episodes is that dreams don't really happen that way. Dreams aren't real life with startling plot twists. Dreams are completely messed up, even if the dreamer doesn't notice right away. No one creates a perfect replica of reality in their dreams.

Now, one thing that bothers me while watching this episode (although it's really more a problem with TNBA) is that one of Nightwings scarce appearances (He's in, what, three other episodes as Nightwing?) never even happened. Like I said, it's more a problem with TNBA not using Nightwing enough, but it still annoys me when I watch the episode.

[Love4ever]

Couldn't this be merged with the talkback?


Handshot, love your avator, what episode is that scene from and where did you get the avator ???

[Toddman]

Forgive me for being rude, but fans who get miffed simply because the majority of events in this episode were a "dream" are, quite frankly, idiots.

That's like complaining that you had to ride business class on your all-expense paid vacation to Bermuda.

The dream device was just a means to an end. It's what takes place within the dream sequence that gives the story it's purpose.

Now if someone doesn't like the way the story within the dream played out, or the way scenes framing the dream sequence was handled, then that's different. But to criticize the fact that most of the episode was a dream in the first place, in my opinion is really missing the point.


Toddman

[Michael24]

The main problem I have with "Dream" episodes is that dreams don't really happen that way. Dreams aren't real life with startling plot twists. Dreams are completely messed up, even if the dreamer doesn't notice right away. No one creates a perfect replica of reality in their dreams.

That's a good point, but it wasn't really a normal dream. She was basically just hallucinating her worst fear as a result of being affected by Scarecrow's fear toxin.

[Wonderwall]

Handshot, love your avator, what episode is that scene from and where did you get the avator ???

I believe thats a shot from Perchance to Dream.

[Hanshotfirst113]

Han, love your avatar, what episode is that scene from and where did you get the avatar ???


I believe that's a shot from Perchance to Dream.

Indeed. It's from the battle between Bruce and Batman on the clocktower. I wanted to put "Then I'll see you in your nightmares!" but it wouldn't fit :p.

[Toddman]

Indeed. It's from the battle between Bruce and Batman on the clocktower. I wanted to put "Then I'll see you in your nightmares!" but it wouldn't fit :p.

Maybe the original line that was shot down by BS&P would have fit instead :evil:.


Toddman

[Hanshotfirst113]

Maybe the original line that was shot down by BS&P would have fit instead :evil:.


Toddman

What's that?

[Donomark]

"THEN I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL!!!!!!!!!"

If B:TAS got away with that line, then it would have made the show EVEN MORE impossibly awesome.

Mod Note: Let's move this discussion back on-topic, please. Thank you.

[Hanshotfirst113]

In revisiting the DCAU for the first time since my first viewings back when it first went into syndication (when I finish with the whole thing, I'll post some overall thoughts), this was an episode that had a lot of hype riding on on it, and it's built up a considerable reputation over the years. So in revisiting it, I had high exceptions. I'm happy to report that I wasn't disappointed. Whereas I tend to criticize much of TNBA for an emphasis on using it new graphic style for more action and less introspection, almost everything in this episode flows flawlessly. Emotionally, it's a powerful punch to the gut. Dini takes a chilling "Batman: The End" scenario and runs with it. Granted, there are a few minor story points that one could, I suppose, harp on: why is Dick stupid enough to go back to his loft, where he must know that the police will be waiting? Why does Batman jump down to another roof to get jumped by Bane? And that scene with the villains really does clash tonally with the rest of the episode.

Still, this is minor carping. There is no way in hell that they could have ever gotten away with this in the FOX years, and that the WB censors managed to let this get by borders on a miracle. There's some stuff here's pretty powerful even to my cynical 21-year-old eyes, not only in terms of being, for what it is, pretty graphic, but in terms of the emotional content of the episodes. If one were ever to look to what makes the DCAU so great, this would be a great place to start. Hastings gets a lot of the credit in this episode, and he deserves it, but everyone is at the top of their game. Conroy, in particular, with a very small handful of lines, managed to give a beautifully understated performance.

Ah, and TMS. Good old TMS. God bless TMS. Give the directorial reigns (directed by Yuchiro Yano) they are at the peak of their considerable form, and that's saying a lot. On the commentary, Timm points a simple little touch like the footwork that Batman does before he throws a punch, the kind of thing that no one but the folks at Tokyo Movie Shinsa would have thought to do. And they all add so much. The revamp Bane design, far from the buffoonish BTAS incarnation, is chilling, and the many set pieces, particularly the Batcave escape at the beginning (Love the shot-up Robin costume; why was that never shown or mentioned again?), and the Batman vs. Bane showdown in the final act. The psychological complexity of these simple 20 minutes, as Batman's tactics, always at the frayed ends of justice, finally snap, rival far more complex, big-budgeted films, and are infinitely more resonant. There's so much to be said about this episodes, and after all of these years, it still holds up magnificently, and in many ways, gets even better as I mature more and pick up on the nuances. This is brilliant stuff. Bravo, Mr. Timm. Dark, complex, rich, mature, layered, exhilarating, and sad, there's more pathos in this Saturday morning cartoon than in many feature-length multimilliondollar films. A miniature masterpiece.


don't remember if we explicitly said it on the commentary or not -- but for the record, daddy definitely knows.

You did indeed. Though I admit, I still can't really pick up on how exactly he says so.

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I gave it four and a half stars, in my opinion the best animated Batman episode of them all.

[ShadowStar]

I gave it four and a half stars, in my opinion the best animated Batman episode of them all.

I would say there are plenty of five star B:TAS/TNBA tales...

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I would say there are plenty of five star B:TAS/TNBA tales...

I never give anything a 5, I think thats like saying nothing can ever be better than it.

[Mistah K88]

I don't believe I haven't replied in this one yet. This episode was BRILLIANT. Even though some people think of it as being a cop out since it was all a dream, it still doesn't take away from the overall story that is being told here. 5 Stars!

You'd be surprised how realistic it is with a bunch of rouges trying to sue Wayne after they found out who Batman was. Haven't we had actuall cases somewhat like that, where a criminal tries to sue people for stopping them or something like that. I could really see that happening...even if it is played for laughs. Johnny Cochran has gotten murderers off before in this series (Joker's Millions) so he'd be the go to lawyer for this stuff...

The little talk with Barb and her father was sweet, however for all we know, Commish thinks Barb is a stripper or something.

[FightingDreamer]

Amazing stuff. Laundry list:

-I like the "villains decide to sue Wayne" scene for a couple reasons: for one thing, we get to hear some more of Roddy McDowall's Mad Hatter, and that's always a treat. I also like because, well, we need a break after all the preceding sturm und drang. It lets us relax for a moment before diving back into the intensity.

-I like Bane's new design here much more than the luchador thing; in fact, aside from his Young Justice luchador mask (which worked surprisingly well), this is easily my favorite Bane design. It's frankly more intimidating and "don't mess with this guy" than many of the other Bane designs. Henry Silva drops the accent from his previous appearance and gives a truly spine-chilling performance, especially since he has some great, creepy-as-hell lines.

-Everyone's great on the vocal end of things, but Bob Hastings (as well as the aforementioned Silva) easily steals the show. He's always been great as Gordon, but he really gets to sink his teeth into the role this time around, and it's just magnificent work. I also love Robert Costanzo as Bullock here; it's not one of his great stand-alone performances like A Bullet for Bullock, no, but his honest grief and anger at Batman is quite effective.

-I agree that the real surprise at the end is that Gordon knows. They play fair with the dream angle for the most part (although the flashback is a little weird, but it helps throw off the viewer more), especially since there are odd moments like Nightwing getting captured by being stupid, the fact that Gordon is even allowed to "hire" Bane in the first place since he's asked to "step down", and, yeah, the bazookas are pretty extreme measures. Still, I love that last little scene.

-Even after Bruce Timm and company continued to elevate their action scenes to epic, iconic levels, the action and violence here is still incredible. I even like the short scuffle with Scarecrow, especially after he laughs and Batman responds with a particularly vicious punch. This is easily one of the best TMS episodes, especially since they got to play around with digital animation for the first time.