Babs/Bruce DCAU

[coreysturg]

I read on the internet quite often that people believe that Bruce and Barbara had a real relationship. I want to know what you guys think. I'd always thought, after the release of Mystery of the Batwoman, that she was just a typical girl who read a little too much into things.

In Batgirl Returns, she has that really creepy dream of Batman kissing her, so hooking up with ol' Batsy definitely falls into the fantasy category for her, and it's really hard to get a good read off of Bruce in Batwoman because he could be avoiding the subject of them being a couple for one of two reasons:

1. Something creepy and gross actually happened between the two of them and he's trying to avoid all the sticky wickets that come with an actual relationship or

2. He respects her as a partner and part of the team and simply wants to ignore her advances to preserve their professional colleagueship. I'm more inclined to believe the second. Tim and Alfred, (in the scene) seem to find her equally ridiculous, both of whom are enormous fans and supporters of Dick. Since Barbara was an ingredient of his leaving, wouldn't they be very disapproving of such an action. I certainly doubt Alfred would jokingly condone such behavior or at least not comment on how he's treating her poorly or something. I think her idea of whatever relationship they had, might have just come from working closely as partners and caring about each other.

I know I've had many an awkward friendship turn to the "so, what exactly are we?" conversation. It comes pretty standard with boy/girl friendships that absorb a decent chunk of time together. Bruce reacted exactly the way I always have. You never really get down to the, "hey, listen... I don't know why your brain is broken, and has made you think that I like you, but I don't" 'til it really hits the fan. Bruce clearly doesn't want to have the conversation and continues seeing other girls, so he obviously doesn't agree with whatever she thinks is going on. And again, she has been shown to have fantasies about him, describing him in a very romanticized fashion "it was like a ballet" (I guarantee it wasn't to him, he was concerned about the mission, not the smooth direction of his movements or his partnership with her, in fact, he dropped her pretty quickly after the Tim-Joker fiasco... I'm pretty sure this is why she's bitter).

Is it possible that something adult happened between the two of them, yes. Is there evidence of it... well, one daydreaming love-lorn girl's statement hardly counts as a fact, but you could make it work if you wanted to. Is there equal evidence that nothing happened? Yes, and because Batman is a hero, albeit a very tragic misunderstood one, I'm really holding on to this being true (honestly it fits better with his character... every time he's seen with any other girl but Babs, he seems to be actually trying to make it work).

[Livy1213]

You should really use paragraph breaks. Not a lot of people are going to want to read that big block of text. It hurts the eyes.

[coreysturg]

You should really use paragraph breaks. Not a lot of people are going to want to read that big block of text. It hurts the eyes.

Better?

[seryass]

I personally have never had a problem with the Bruce/Barbara relationship. Many work colleagues in real life have relationships essentially because that is where they met. Why should it be no different for these two who worked together? More importantly Barbara is hardly a daydreaming love-lorn girl. In fact she isn't even the latter. She's a woman and I've always personally believed that, like the comics, Barbara is a year or two older than Dick.

In fact really Dick only has himself to blame. He treated her like dirt from the evidence that we do see in "Old Wounds" so is it any wonder that Barbara might turn to Bruce for support. Now I'm not one of the people that believe she is some sort of a vindictive woman by turning to Bruce and seducing or coming onto him there and then. I believe that their romance blossomed over time. Certainly the chemistry in Gotham Knights seem to imply that they more closer now than they were back then. Remember "Old Wounds" whilst being a New Batman Adventures episode was not set then.

Bruce's treatment of Barbara in Batwoman is easily explained given what's occuring in the story with Kathy DuKane. At that point he does have feelings for Kathy and I'm guessing that the romance angle is building purely on Barbara's side, a fact which obviously hasn't escaped Bruce's attention. Clearly at that point he does just see her as a partner whilst she seems him as more than that.

Really though the argument is more in favour of an actual romance. Batman Beyond seems to confirm it when she mentions to Terry that a relationship did occur between the two of them. Now it's never stated how long for and even the basis for it but it was clearly adult in nature. You could argue that she's making it up but then why would she? What reason does she have to gain when she's now a happily married woman?

[KillerMoth]

I on the other hand always had a problem with it. Getting away from the rather icky age gap between the two (About, what, 15-20 years?) it just came across as controversy for the sake of it. The two never really had chemistry that allowed for a believable relationship and so the largely offscreen nature of it cheapened it even further. Not to mention that while Bruce can be cold, I highly doubt he would date a woman his own adopted son had just been having a steady relationship with.

I also felt this was a problem with the DCAU Batman, while I do complain about the favouritism he gets in getting constant victories there's also that the writers would continually pair him up with prominent female characters like some walking Casanova. There's Babs, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane and another I'm missing.

[coreysturg]

I personally have never had a problem with the Bruce/Barbara relationship. Many work colleagues in real life have relationships essentially because that is where they met. Why should it be no different for these two who worked together? More importantly Barbara is hardly a daydreaming love-lorn girl. In fact she isn't even the latter. She's a woman and I've always personally believed that, like the comics, Barbara is a year or two older than Dick.

In fact really Dick only has himself to blame. He treated her like dirt from the evidence that we do see in "Old Wounds" so is it any wonder that Barbara might turn to Bruce for support. Now I'm not one of the people that believe she is some sort of a vindictive woman by turning to Bruce and seducing or coming onto him there and then. I believe that their romance blossomed over time. Certainly the chemistry in Gotham Knights seem to imply that they more closer now than they were back then. Remember "Old Wounds" whilst being a New Batman Adventures episode was not set then.

Bruce's treatment of Barbara in Batwoman is easily explained given what's occuring in the story with Kathy DuKane. At that point he does have feelings for Kathy and I'm guessing that the romance angle is building purely on Barbara's side, a fact which obviously hasn't escaped Bruce's attention. Clearly at that point he does just see her as a partner whilst she seems him as more than that.

Really though the argument is more in favour of an actual romance. Batman Beyond seems to confirm it when she mentions to Terry that a relationship did occur between the two of them. Now it's never stated how long for and even the basis for it but it was clearly adult in nature. You could argue that she's making it up but then why would she? What reason does she have to gain when she's now a happily married woman?

I can agree with a lot of this, but how do you explain her uninvited fantasy that is seen in Batgirl Returns, as not having potential for living in a fantasy-land. I mean, that could easily explain it, even in her happy marriage... Bruce is the one who got away. Not to undermine you or anything, you bring up really good points that have really no counter-argument in a lot of ways, I just wonder why they would have had Bruce engage in a relationship with her when he clearly knows he did wrong by Dick: "Looks like Batman had a change of heart, who knew he had one?" I also agree with Killer Moth, what was the point of introducing it, doesn't seem to undermine the kindness that Batman truly has? Also, I'm not sure about this, so maybe you guys could help... Have any of the creators commented on this at all?

[Livy1213]

Better?
Yes, thank you.

The Bruce/Barbara thing always made me uneasy, not only because of the age gap but that Dick was really serious with Barbara for a time. You really shouldn't sleep with your best friend's ex-girlfriend, let along your adopted son's. In the New Adventures, Barbara plainly still had feelings for Dick which makes me think that the whole thing with Bruce might have been just a short lived rebound romance for her (given she sees Bruce accomplish amazingly brave and heroic things almost everyday, it's no surprise she was attracted to him on some level). Bruce was probably the one who broke it off, it was probably abrupt too given this is Bruce we're talking about. I'm betting he never told her why and that's what pissed her off (that and that she wasn't the one to break it off first). But this is all speculation since a lot of the relationship was only ever vaguely hinted at.

But overall I didn't like it, especially in Out of the Past where Bruce looks at two pictures of Barbara but none of Andrea, that bugged me. The relationship with Barbara never came off that serious until that point. I like to ignore it and pretend that last picture of Barb is a revamped version of Andrea (I like Andrea more than I like Barb) but that's just me.

[ABrown]

I think that the majority of their "relationship" was in Barbara's head. I mean I'm not saying that NOTHING happened. But I really don't see Bruce at any point every having made a commitment to her.

[Otaku-sempai]

The Bruce/Barbara thing always made me uneasy, not only because of the age gap but that Dick was really serious with Barbara for a time.Thank you.

That was one of my bigger disappointments with The New Batman Adventures. I wanted to see the Babs/Dick relationship that we see in Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero developed further.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I think that the majority of their "relationship" was in Barbara's head. I mean I'm not saying that NOTHING happened. But I really don't see Bruce at any point every having made a commitment to her.

How many women did Bruce ever commit to? Andrea was an obvious one, Lois probably counts as well. More on Lois in just a bit...


I on the other hand always had a problem with it. Getting away from the rather icky age gap between the two (About, what, 15-20 years?) it just came across as controversy for the sake of it. The two never really had chemistry that allowed for a believable relationship and so the largely offscreen nature of it cheapened it even further. Not to mention that while Bruce can be cold, I highly doubt he would date a woman his own adopted son had just been having a steady relationship with.

I also felt this was a problem with the DCAU Batman, while I do complain about the favouritism he gets in getting constant victories there's also that the writers would continually pair him up with prominent female characters like some walking Casanova. There's Babs, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane and another I'm missing.

Agreed on both points. The age gap isn't bothersome for me at all, it's who from that age gap that does. If it were Barbara's college roommate, I have no issue at all. However, Barbara was his adopted son's former girlfriend. That just seems wrong on so many levels.

Back to Lois. At first, I thought her romantic relationship with Bruce Wayne was sort of interesting. Within the context of its own story, it worked well, and I applauded it. However, as the DCAU progressed, it took a long time for Superman and Lois' relationship to supersede the depth she shared with Bruce Wayne. Or at least it seemed that way... Regardless, there's an underlying implication in that progression that not only does every woman like Batman, the one woman tied to Superman for decades was a hair's width away from being Mrs. Wayne.

So in addition to Batman's sizable, traditional "gals gallery," Bruce Wayne got a piece of Robin's girl (Babs) and Supes' girl (Lois), attracted Joker's girl (Harley) and Steve Trevor's girl (and to a small comic-verse extent, a Supes' girl) (Wonder Woman). Am I missing anyone? Just imagine if there were a Batman/Black Canary team up!

[coreysturg]

Well apparently I was wrong. I just watched Out of the Past, and Talia says that she knows Bruce loved Barbara. Well, if the consensus is that Dick hates him, no wonder. I'm very disappointed.

[Livy1213]

She never actually said the name Barbara. All she said was that she knew he loved "her", referring to the woman in the picture. In my world, it's Andrea she's talking about!

[seryass]

I can agree with a lot of this, but how do you explain her uninvited fantasy that is seen in Batgirl Returns, as not having potential for living in a fantasy-land. I mean, that could easily explain it, even in her happy marriage... Bruce is the one who got away. Not to undermine you or anything, you bring up really good points that have really no counter-argument in a lot of ways, I just wonder why they would have had Bruce engage in a relationship with her when he clearly knows he did wrong by Dick: "Looks like Batman had a change of heart, who knew he had one?" I also agree with Killer Moth, what was the point of introducing it, doesn't seem to undermine the kindness that Batman truly has? Also, I'm not sure about this, so maybe you guys could help... Have any of the creators commented on this at all?

I'm really not sure what the purpose of bringing the fantasy up is. Yes I do agree with you. Barbara at that point was daydreaming about Batman. She clearly had a crush on him. Many of us do at any age and she clearly wasn't in a relationship with Dick at that point. The difference here being that some time in the future (we are never told when) her daydream will turn out to be a reality if Batman Beyond is anything to go by. Also I think you might be exaggerating a bit. We only see one daydream of hers. Many of us daydream to relieve the boredom which is exactly what she was doing there. That doesn't necessarily mean she might live in a fantasy-land. Had we seen more then I might agree with you but I still stand by what I said that she was simply bored and dreamt that on the spur of the moment.

The quote you mentioned has nothing to do with the romantic angle and is taken out of context. One of Batman's major characteristics is that he is very stubborn. He didn't want to admit that Dick did have a point about interrogating the guy in front of his family. The scene in question that utitlises that speech is his way of telling Dick that, yes, Dick was correct and this is how he is atoning for that mistake that he made.


Getting away from the rather icky age gap between the two (About, what, 15-20 years?) it just came across as controversy for the sake of it. The two never really had chemistry that allowed for a believable relationship and so the largely offscreen nature of it cheapened it even further. Not to mention that while Bruce can be cold, I highly doubt he would date a woman his own adopted son had just been having a steady relationship with.

I also felt this was a problem with the DCAU Batman, while I do complain about the favouritism he gets in getting constant victories there's also that the writers would continually pair him up with prominent female characters like some walking Casanova. There's Babs, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane and another I'm missing.

I'm not going to get into the age gap debate as I seem to remember that has already been covered before in this forum and more importantly isn't the fundamental issue here. Suffice to say though I personally have no problem with it. Barbara, in my opinion, is not some love-struck teenager and is clearly old enough to make her own decisions.

True Bruce and Babs didn't really have much onscreen chemistry between them but when you really get down to it how many female characters from the entire series can you really say that about? In my opinion the only women that can be classified as having good, solid onscreen romantic chemistry with him are Andrea and Talia. Lois and Kathy you could argue are just like in your argument for Barbara - purely for controversial sake (the former for being the love interest between two superheroes and the latter for being the anti-hero). I mean even the big one, Catwoman, was more flirtatious than anything else.

I actually do agree with you on the constant victories aspect of Batman and I say this as a fan of the character but in the latter's case by his very definition isn't that the whole apsect of the Bruce Wayne character that he is a walking playboy to mask the fact about who he really is at heart.

Also I have to bring up the Dick issue again. Firstly I don't believe that the romance between Bruce and Barbara happened straight away as I said in my previous post. If anything I would think it might be a long time in the making (maybe even post Return of the Joker flashbacks) meaning a few years have passed even after those events. I just feel that Barbara is getting the short straw here when in actual fact I think she's the victim. Firstly Dick treated her appallingly. It goes without saying that they obviously cared for each other for a long time but the way he treated her from the flashbacks in "Old Wounds" is just nasty as he completely shuts her out. Is it any wonder why she might turn to Bruce for support? Essentially if anyone should be blamed it is Bruce AND Dick (the former for taking advantage of the situation and that in itself is debatable and the latter for shutting her out). I personally believe that by the time a romance did blossom between Bruce and Barbara is that some years will have passed by. Remember what the episode is called. By the very definition the saying goes "time heals old wounds". Clearly it didn't for Dick given some of the comments Barbara makes in Batman Beyond but I highly doubt that Barbara was the reason for this or at the very least the sole reason.

[EnragedSith]

I'm going to go out and say that I actually like the Bruce/Barbara relationship concept, I think that it's a unique dynamic for the characters.

The age difference doesn't bother me, relationships with that kind of gap really do happen (and not just with celebrities)

My only critique is that the if it were explored a little more the relationship would have interesting story potential, a very bitter Dick Grayson would make an interesting villain.

Take a look at it from his prespective he quit as Robin feeling that Batman was taking control of his life and the revealation that his girlfriend (whom I'd guess he wanted to marry) is really Batgirl, more too it Bruce knew who she was and withheld the information. Coming back as Nightwing he finds Batgirl has taken his place as sidekick, he assumes Batgirl's partnership is purely platonic and and arguably it started as such. Sometime after TNBA he decides to set out on his own for good and learns that Bruce and Barbara are an item, those past feelings of Bruce controlling his life are transformed into a belief that Bruce has stolen his life

The relationship is not just the foundation for making Dick a tragic villain, but it has the potential to make arguably the greatest epic in the Batman mythos

[JTMarsh]

I agree with Killer Moth. No matter how you cut it, Batman having a relationship with Babs, the ex-girlfriend of his foster son and daughter of one of his few genuine friends, not just an ally but a friend, Commissioner Jim Gordon, is just wrong on too many levels, and, like the Wonder Woman subplot that came in Justice League, seems like it was thrown in just for controversy.

I'm also not a fan of how easily women seem to fall for Bats in the DCAU (I half expect to see Carol Ferris, Sue Dibny, Iris West-Allen and Linda Park-West chasing after him) or how he always seemed to beat those meta-human thugs a little too easily. Nor do I enjoy EnragedSith's idea of Dick becoming a "villain" over the Bruce/Babs debacle.

[Lois_Lane_Kent]

The age gap doesn't really bother me-- my husband is 8 years older than me, so I can't say much on that front.

However, the fact that she was involved with Bruce's adopted son is just icky. I just don't think Bruce would do that to Dick. Like you've all said, he has every woman in the DCAU throwing themselves at him so he has no shortage of potential mates; if he's after Barbara, it seems to me it'd be exclusively for the reason to make some kind of point to Dick. Batman is a harsh father-figure, yes, but not that unnecessarily cruel.

I actually don't mind Barbara's silly fantasy in BTAS, but that's because it is a silly fantasy and not reality at that point. I definitely believe she'd have a crush on Batman, but them having a relationship? Eh... I guess that's the writers' call, not mine, but I don't see much in it.

[coreysturg]

Also I have to bring up the Dick issue again. Firstly I don't believe that the romance between Bruce and Barbara happened straight away as I said in my previous post. If anything I would think it might be a long time in the making (maybe even post Return of the Joker flashbacks) meaning a few years have passed even after those events. I just feel that Barbara is getting the short straw here when in actual fact I think she's the victim. Firstly Dick treated her appallingly. It goes without saying that they obviously cared for each other for a long time but the way he treated her from the flashbacks in "Old Wounds" is just nasty as he completely shuts her out. Is it any wonder why she might turn to Bruce for support? Essentially if anyone should be blamed it is Bruce AND Dick (the former for taking advantage of the situation and that in itself is debatable and the latter for shutting her out). I personally believe that by the time a romance did blossom between Bruce and Barbara is that some years will have passed by. Remember what the episode is called. By the very definition the saying goes "time heals old wounds". Clearly it didn't for Dick given some of the comments Barbara makes in Batman Beyond but I highly doubt that Barbara was the reason for this or at the very least the sole reason.

You know, I've gotta say... I've never thought of that before. Batman was ''atoning'' for his mistake. I'd always thought that Dick just misjudged his character. I think you might be right though. I'm learning new disappointing things about Bruce every day. Haha. Yeah I know he's supposed to be flawed, because that's what makes him human, I'm just disappointed in seeing him from this different light.

But, on the subject of Dick, Barbara only states that Dick knows what it means to be bitter about a relationship with Bruce, an example of which we saw on screen ("Look up Nightwing, has he got stories" and "Dick was tired of living in Batman's shadow so he left" could refer the first time he left.) I think its reasonable to suspect that there could be no bad blood by this point as the only conclusion we're given for Dick's story is that he left to establish himself elsewhere. No real need for negative connotation there, but you can interpret it that way if you'd like. Its ambiguous enough for either to be true I think. I think I'm definitely a DCAU optimist, so if its doable, I'm going to find happy endings where I can. Probably a flaw of mine, but since we aren't given any actual on-screen answers that we see for ourselves, I think there's enough ambiguous and under-detailed information to make either side of this argument true. That includes the unseen details occurring in the 50 year gap for both Babs and Dick.

I think the creators did this on purpose. They didn't like Dick so they didn't want to write him in the show, so they never gave much of an explanation but some random mentions. Therefore, you as the viewer could decide what happened without contradicting canon, although I'll agree, I believe they probably lean more toward the tragic side of things (I think they've said before that was the purpose of the Batman Beyond show). Or if you wanted to believe that there were feelings shared between Babs and Bruce but they were never really acted on, there's enough leeway for you to effectively argue that as well. I'm glad they left these holes, because I'm not sure I'd have been happy with whatever they were trying to do with the character. For Batman fans, they sure seemed to create a mostly hopeless and lonely future for him. A very strange consequence for being one of the world's greatest heroes and a very strange message for a children's show: "Don't look up to Batman, you'll end up in 50 years of isolation."

Great, effective storytelling that brings a lot of realism to the table, but a very tragic life for someone so devoted to helping his fellow man. But hey, it was one of the greatest animated shows of our generation, so they were doing something right. And I can see why people enjoyed even those aspects of the story. They just kind of broke MY heart. And I think when you embrace these glaring negative blotches, you end up with stories like the new Batman Beyond miniseries, which is painfully horrible.

[ABrown]

How many women did Bruce ever commit to? Andrea was an obvious one, Lois probably counts as well. More on Lois in just a bit

Well actually Lois states in World's Finest that they hadn't made a formal commitment. I don't think that Bruce ever made a commitment to any woman once he became Batman after he lost Andrea the first time.

[Livy1213]

Lois was going to move to Gotham for him. If Bruce wasn't going to commit after that then either a) Lois was an idiot for thinking he would commit when he wasn't going to or b) Bruce is a real piece of work for leading her on like that.

[seryass]

You know, I've gotta say... I've never thought of that before. Batman was ''atoning'' for his mistake. I'd always thought that Dick just misjudged his character. I think you might be right though. I'm learning new disappointing things about Bruce every day. Haha. Yeah I know he's supposed to be flawed, because that's what makes him human, I'm just disappointed in seeing him from this different light. .

We all can interpret scenes differently. I just personally feel that the scene clearly was showing Dick out to be the more sympathetic character. Now I'm not a fan of Dick myself but I have to agree with him in that scene. Bruce did push a line when he interrogated the father in front of his kid but he later realized his mistake. Bruce is far too stubborn to admit Dick was right or even acknowledge it to Dick's face so that was the best solution which he never even told Dick about.


But, on the subject of Dick, Barbara only states that Dick knows what it means to be bitter about a relationship with Bruce, an example of which we saw on screen ("Look up Nightwing, has he got stories" and "Dick was tired of living in Batman's shadow so he left" could refer the first time he left.) I think its reasonable to suspect that there could be no bad blood by this point as the only conclusion we're given for Dick's story is that he left to establish himself elsewhere. No real need for negative connotation there, but you can interpret it that way if you'd like. Its ambiguous enough for either to be true I think. I think I'm definitely a DCAU optimist, so if its doable, I'm going to find happy endings where I can. Probably a flaw of mine, but since we aren't given any actual on-screen answers that we see for ourselves, I think there's enough ambiguous and under-detailed information to make either side of this argument true. That includes the unseen details occurring in the 50 year gap for both Babs and Dick.

I think the creators did this on purpose. They didn't like Dick so they didn't want to write him in the show, so they never gave much of an explanation but some random mentions. Therefore, you as the viewer could decide what happened without contradicting canon, although I'll agree, I believe they probably lean more toward the tragic side of things (I think they've said before that was the purpose of the Batman Beyond show). Or if you wanted to believe that there were feelings shared between Babs and Bruce but they were never really acted on, there's enough leeway for you to effectively argue that as well. I'm glad they left these holes, because I'm not sure I'd have been happy with whatever they were trying to do with the character. For Batman fans, they sure seemed to create a mostly hopeless and lonely future for him. A very strange consequence for being one of the world's greatest heroes and a very strange message for a children's show: "Don't look up to Batman, you'll end up in 50 years of isolation."

Great, effective storytelling that brings a lot of realism to the table, but a very tragic life for someone so devoted to helping his fellow man. But hey, it was one of the greatest animated shows of our generation, so they were doing something right. And I can see why people enjoyed even those aspects of the story. They just kind of broke MY heart. And I think when you embrace these glaring negative blotches, you end up with stories like the new Batman Beyond miniseries, which is painfully horrible.

I do agree with mostly what you say and personally I find a lot of the open interpretations to be one of the best aspects of the whole DCAU.

One thing I will touch upon though is one of the quotes you mentioned. Barbara says the "Look up Nightwing. Has he got stories" line in Return of the Joker. Now from my point of view she is implying by that line that a lot has occured between Bruce and Dick. You have to remember what happened in the movie to poor Tim. Now let's face it what happened to Tim was extremely grim and nasty. To mention that Nightwing has got stories to tell as well implies that he's suffered just as bad as Tim has (and as we later discover Bruce and Tim only reconcile in that movie) so I personally feel that it's a pretty safe bet that Dick feels some animosity towards Bruce and possibly vice versa as we just don't know what did occur.

Now don't get me wrong. I like to be an optimist too but it's just my interpretation based on the way Barbara is acting in the movie. I have to admit I rather like the idea of Bruce being a loner though in the series. He shuts a lot of people out of his life. When you really get down to it possibly the only people who really knew and understood Bruce were his parents, Alfred and Andrea. Everyone else he did tend to shut out so is it any wonder why he ended up a loner? It is rather sad based on the amount of help he gave to everyone but it's also rather poignant in a way.

On that note I find it's also rather ironic in a way. One of the major reasons why I hated Dick in the original animated series was because he was immature in a number of ways. However by the time you saw him in The New Batman Adventures he had a very different outlook and personality and that's what's ironic. He states a number of times in the series that he will never become like Bruce but the actual fact of the matter is that, from what we could gather, he was turning out to be like Bruce. He too started to shut people out of his life ("Old Wounds") and there were elements of him being stubborn too ("You Scratch My Back") so I can probably see Dick ending up the same way as Bruce.

[coreysturg]

We all can interpret scenes differently. I just personally feel that the scene clearly was showing Dick out to be the more sympathetic character. Now I'm not a fan of Dick myself but I have to agree with him in that scene. Bruce did push a line when he interrogated the father in front of his kid but he later realized his mistake. Bruce is far too stubborn to admit Dick was right or even acknowledge it to Dick's face so that was the best solution which he never even told Dick about.



I do agree with mostly what you say and personally I find a lot of the open interpretations to be one of the best aspects of the whole DCAU.

One thing I will touch upon though is one of the quotes you mentioned. Barbara says the "Look up Nightwing. Has he got stories" line in Return of the Joker. Now from my point of view she is implying by that line that a lot has occured between Bruce and Dick. You have to remember what happened in the movie to poor Tim. Now let's face it what happened to Tim was extremely grim and nasty. To mention that Nightwing has got stories to tell as well implies that he's suffered just as bad as Tim has (and as we later discover Bruce and Tim only reconcile in that movie) so I personally feel that it's a pretty safe bet that Dick feels some animosity towards Bruce and possibly vice versa as we just don't know what did occur.

Now don't get me wrong. I like to be an optimist too but it's just my interpretation based on the way Barbara is acting in the movie. I have to admit I rather like the idea of Bruce being a loner though in the series. He shuts a lot of people out of his life. When you really get down to it possibly the only people who really knew and understood Bruce were his parents, Alfred and Andrea. Everyone else he did tend to shut out so is it any wonder why he ended up a loner? It is rather sad based on the amount of help he gave to everyone but it's also rather poignant in a way.

On that note I find it's also rather ironic in a way. One of the major reasons why I hated Dick in the original animated series was because he was immature in a number of ways. However by the time you saw him in The New Batman Adventures he had a very different outlook and personality and that's what's ironic. He states a number of times in the series that he will never become like Bruce but the actual fact of the matter is that, from what we could gather, he was turning out to be like Bruce. He too started to shut people out of his life ("Old Wounds") and there were elements of him being stubborn too ("You Scratch My Back") so I can probably see Dick ending up the same way as Bruce.

I agree with you about Dick being more sympathetic now totally. One thing though, I interpreted Barbara's quote to simply refer to an unravelling of a relationship because he is asking about her and Tim's common bitterness that resulted from their falling out with Bruce. I think she said to look up Nightwing because Bruce raised him into adulthood, and he's known him for longer than anyone else. So any kind of falling out, which like I said I'm hoping we've already seen in "Old Wounds," would have been particularly devastating. Nightwing in that episode also seemed to have a worse attitude than either Tim or Barbara in BB, which would seem to tell a pretty good bitterness story. Granted, time has gone by for Tim and Babs to get over it, but whatever. This is partially why I like Dick as a character less and less as time goes by. He's really immature and angst-ridden. Everything he complained about Batman being in Old Wounds, doesn't seem to add up either. He's more prone to fire people because he's worried about them getting hurt (see: Terry and Tim), not manipulate them into becoming a sidekick. He's always rubbed me the wrong way because of his attitude, but I still, for whatever reason, feel like he and Bruce deserve some kind of relief and closure. I also agree that Bruce needs to be a loner because he shuts people out. But I like to think he and Dick don't have a relationship anymore because he's more interested in being Batman and later being left alone in his self-imposed isolation (I think he feels a lot of guilt over not being able to complete the "mission," and he probably feels like a failure to his "kids" as well after what happened to Tim), similar to his relationship with Clark. On an unrelated note, have you been reading the mini that's out?

[seryass]

I agree with you about Dick being more sympathetic now totally. One thing though, I interpreted Barbara's quote to simply refer to an unravelling of a relationship because he is asking about her and Tim's common bitterness that resulted from their falling out with Bruce. I think she said to look up Nightwing because Bruce raised him into adulthood, and he's known him for longer than anyone else. So any kind of falling out, which like I said I'm hoping we've already seen in "Old Wounds," would have been particularly devastating. Nightwing in that episode also seemed to have a worse attitude than either Tim or Barbara in BB, which would seem to tell a pretty good bitterness story. Granted, time has gone by for Tim and Babs to get over it, but whatever. This is partially why I like Dick as a character less and less as time goes by. He's really immature and angst-ridden. Everything he complained about Batman being in Old Wounds, doesn't seem to add up either. He's more prone to fire people because he's worried about them getting hurt (see: Terry and Tim), not manipulate them into becoming a sidekick. He's always rubbed me the wrong way because of his attitude, but I still, for whatever reason, feel like he and Bruce deserve some kind of relief and closure. I also agree that Bruce needs to be a loner because he shuts people out. But I like to think he and Dick don't have a relationship anymore because he's more interested in being Batman and later being left alone in his self-imposed isolation (I think he feels a lot of guilt over not being able to complete the "mission," and he probably feels like a failure to his "kids" as well after what happened to Tim), similar to his relationship with Clark. On an unrelated note, have you been reading the mini that's out?

That's actually a very good point about Barbara's line which I had never considered. However I personally still feel there is more to the relationship between Bruce and Dick that we don't know about. I still stand by my opinion as I personally feel based on her perspective she is hinting at more occuring. Remember that she knows what has happened to Tim. At that point in the story when she says that line we, the viewer, have not been informed of it but she, herself, does know. I still think if she is meaning it in the way you suggested that she is actually being very callous and nasty towards Tim. You simply can't compare Nightwing's leaving of Batman to Tim's. I do agree with you that of course Dick will have more stories to tell (and some naturally will not be in a good light) but in context of what she is about to tell Terry in the story about Tim I still think it a little callous of her if she did indeed mean it that way.

Interestingly my opinion of Dick is completely the opposite to yours. I actually preferred Dick as time went on as finally he was starting to act more mature as well as starting to exhibit some of the traits that Batman has which I think might have started to rub off on him. Originally I found Dick extremely immature which is why, for the most part, I tended to groan if he was in an episode. The only time Dick was ever treated completely seriously in the original series in my opinion was in his origin story "Robin's Reckoning" and that is the only time in the original series that I did like the character. Other times his appearances could be minimal so as not to hurt the story but there are instances where Dick's prescence in a story I feel dragged it down. A good example would be "Baby-Doll". Outside of the supporting characters and the story for the main battle that could have been a great two-hander episode between Batman and Baby-Doll (both characters marred in some form of tragic circumstance that led to who they are now - granted one was vastly more tragic than the other but that's the point really, the one who was the most tragic has become a hero and the other a villain). However Dick's constant sarcastic comments and whining really let the story down in my opinion and sadly it's not limited to that story. Practically every story he appears in one of those two traits comes into play (sometimes both). Rarely was the character ever treated seriously ("Fear of Victory" is one story where he didn't irritate me in that regard).

This has been said before by many a fan but to be honest and this is where it is a bit sad most of the interesting characters in the Batman mythology are the villains (and this is especially true for the animated series). It's quite sad really when more character development is given to a villain (Two-Face, Mr. Freeze and Clayface spring to mind) than to a supporting character such as Dick and a major one at that. Consequently in Batman Beyond I found myself wondering what happened to some of them more than I did Dick. There is a bit of bias there though as Dick has never been a character I really liked (both in and out of comics).

In answer to your other question I haven't read the Batman Beyond mini series. From past experience I tend not to like them. Originally I really liked the comics based on the Batman Animated Series but as time went on more and more storylines were introduced that I just personally didn't feel fit the tone of the series and in certain cases made some of the characters act completely out of character (Mr. Freeze and Andrea spring to mind). I've also found this for other series too such as bringing back Aresia for the Justice League comics who I thought was a good one-off villain. Also from what I've read from various reviews and forums on the net a lot of the fans of the actual BB series are not too fond of what they have done with the characters, particularly Bruce Wayne himself.

[coreysturg]

That's actually a very good point about Barbara's line which I had never considered. However I personally still feel there is more to the relationship between Bruce and Dick that we don't know about. I still stand by my opinion as I personally feel based on her perspective she is hinting at more occuring. Remember that she knows what has happened to Tim. At that point in the story when she says that line we, the viewer, have not been informed of it but she, herself, does know. I still think if she is meaning it in the way you suggested that she is actually being very callous and nasty towards Tim. You simply can't compare Nightwing's leaving of Batman to Tim's. I do agree with you that of course Dick will have more stories to tell (and some naturally will not be in a good light) but in context of what she is about to tell Terry in the story about Tim I still think it a little callous of her if she did indeed mean it that way.

She had already told that story to Terry, that's why he was there to check on him, because he was the only one left with a tie to that night. But, good point.


Interestingly my opinion of Dick is completely the opposite to yours. I actually preferred Dick as time went on as finally he was starting to act more mature as well as starting to exhibit some of the traits that Batman has which I think might have started to rub off on him. Originally I found Dick extremely immature which is why, for the most part, I tended to groan if he was in an episode. The only time Dick was ever treated completely seriously in the original series in my opinion was in his origin story "Robin's Reckoning" and that is the only time in the original series that I did like the character. Other times his appearances could be minimal so as not to hurt the story but there are instances where Dick's prescence in a story I feel dragged it down. A good example would be "Baby-Doll". Outside of the supporting characters and the story for the main battle that could have been a great two-hander episode between Batman and Baby-Doll (both characters marred in some form of tragic circumstance that led to who they are now - granted one was vastly more tragic than the other but that's the point really, the one who was the most tragic has become a hero and the other a villain). However Dick's constant sarcastic comments and whining really let the story down in my opinion and sadly it's not limited to that story. Practically every story he appears in one of those two traits comes into play (sometimes both). Rarely was the character ever treated seriously ("Fear of Victory" is one story where he didn't irritate me in that regard).

Oh no, I agree with you fully. What I meant by "as time went on" was as I personally got older and the DCAU faded off and watching episodes turned into rewatching episodes, I quit liking him... specifically in Batman and Robin. I distinctly remember rewatching Baby Doll as well and feeling the EXACT same way. He just seems like a tool.

The miniseries sucks. Stay away from it.

[SKDarkDragon]

Thank you.

That was one of my bigger disappointments with The New Batman Adventures. I wanted to see the Babs/Dick relationship that we see in Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero developed further.

This pretty much sums up my feelings, too. I thought it was kind of sad and a waste that we saw this cute little relationship start to happen in SubZero, and then in the next piece of the continuity, it's already over and we don't even get to see why until nearly the end of TNBA. (And I hate Old Wounds. I felt like it was a bad explanation for anything.)

I don't like the Bruce/Barbara implications, and I felt like it was especially weird given that Dick/Barbara had been in a relationship before. And all throughout TNBA, Barbara still seems interested in Dick. (What I don't get is why they constantly have him shut her down, when he seemed to care so genuinely for her in the past.) The fantasy dream Babs had about Batman from back in BTAS seems like just that to me: a fantasy dream about Batman, not necessarily Bruce, especially seeing as how she didn't even know who Batman was at the time.

I also agree with whoever mentioned that the writers must not have liked Dick very much, as his appearances are pretty limited in both series (with the exception of the Batman and Robin era episodes.) He was pretty underused in TNBA despite their being plenty of opportunities, and completely phased out in BB. I'll be honest, I haven't watched much of Batman Beyond, but I feel like Terry's character is sorta like what Dick is supposed to be like in some regards. (So I'm not sure why the writers seemed to dislike Dick's character, but created a new one who was fairly similar?) But then, it seemed like even Tim was underused in favor of Batgirl in TNBA.

And lastly, I liked Dick when he was Robin. :p He made jokes, and acted like a teenager. It was refreshingly different from the dark, brooding Batman. Who wants two dark, serious people? That's no fun, haha. He was a fun character, and actually what really got me into the show. I was sad that he wasn't able to keep much of lightheartedness from being Robin over to when he was Nightwing. His embittered attitude toward almost everything really bugged me in TNBA. I feel like Nightwing's lightheartedness is one of his defining traits.

[Toddman]

For anyone who's interested in reading a thorough and in-depth examination of the Bruce Wayne/Barbara Gordon relationship and the implications it presents for the two of them and the other characters in their lives, I highly recommend The Old Maid's colossal essay on the subject (and follow-up discussion) here (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110999). It's long but it's very good and a must-read for this particular subject.


Toddman

[JTMarsh]

Thanks for that link to the Old Maid's essay Todd. A fascinating read.

[Toddman]

Thanks for that link to the Old Maid's essay Todd. A fascinating read.


You're welcome. It was fresh in my mind because even though I started reading it six years ago, I only just finished it last Tuesday :p.


Toddman