Is it too soon for another X-Men/Spider-Man cartoon?

[Blue Beetle]

Disney just bought Marvel and they want to have new series to go along with their new purchase but the deal also caused two recent Spiderman/X-men cartoons to go off the air (maybe not the sole reason but it played a part).

I mean what else can they do to have X-men that is different to what Wolverine and Evolution did?

Unlimited Spiderman won't feel like a retread because it seems to deal more about team ups than early in spideys life like Spectacular was, but what about when a new spiderman show after that? Would it be better if it took place i Peters college years like TAS or would it be ok to start over from the beginning since Spectacular still had plenty of early years that it didn't cover?

Same with Iron Man when AA is eventually cancelled, I'm pretty sure it won't get a third season.And also with Avengers, if the series is cancelled before the movie comes out since its still two years away, will they do a new avengers show to tie in with the movie?

[Rick Jones]

I'm very ready for more X-Men. I'm still not over this insane cancellation of WATX though.

[Gokou Ruri]

Same with Iron Man when AA is eventually cancelled They already said the second season would end the story, so there won't be a third season (it was a set 52 episode story show).

And that's the conundrum with comic book shows. Do we really need 10 Spider-Man cartoons? There's small differences between them sure (mainly to fit the time when they're made) but if you've seen one you've pretty much seen them all; unless you do something really different like Spider-Man Unlimited did.

[Blue Beetle]

Do we really need 10 Spider-Man cartoons? There's small differences between them sure (mainly to fit the time when they're made) but if you've seen one you've pretty much seen them all; unless you do something really different like Spider-Man Unlimited did.

Its not that I'm opposed to more spider-man cartoons but that at least we need some kind of cycle, we just saw WatXM and SM, what can they do to offer us something different than just rewatch what we already saw? The new Spiderman cartoon seems to be more team up based which is definitely different from Spectacular, But X-men would have to do something similar or it'll just retread WatXM which was just cancelled.

[JTMarsh]

A couple of years in between series wouldn't be such a bad thing.

One way to make the next eventual X-Men series different from W&TXM - don't reorganize the X-Men universe to specifically cater to Wolverine. ;)

[Silverstar]

It's never too soon for new Spider-Man and X-Men series as long the franchises are making money, so says the Media Machine. ;)

I don't follow Spider-Man that closely, so I can't comment on that, but for a new X-Men show, I just have one thing to say: Don't focus it on Wolverine. X-Men is supposed to be about the team, not just one guy.

I'd either like to see a X series done in a similar style to the 90's Fox show, only with better animation and new stories (don't just rehash the Phoenix Saga or the Hellfire Club again, please) or maybe an X-Men: First Class series which focuses on the mutants as teenagers, only no public high school this time. Keep the education in the mansion and keep the shipping to a minimum, and I'd watch it.

[JTMarsh]

It's never too soon for new Spider-Man and X-Men series as long the franchises are making money, so says the Media Machine. ;)

I don't follow Spider-Man that closely, so I can't comment on that, but for a new X-Men show, I just have one thing to say: Don't focus it on Wolverine. X-Men is supposed to be about the team, not just one guy.

Now you're talking my language Silverstar. :D



I'd either like to see a X series done in a similar style to the 90's Fox show, only with better animation and new stories (don't just rehash the Phoenix Saga or the Hellfire Club again, please) or maybe an X-Men: First Class series which focuses on the mutants as teenagers, only no public high school this time. Keep the education in the mansion and keep the shipping to a minimum, and I'd watch it.
You know we were talking about that for a bit over at Superhero Hype, whether or not the next potential X-Men series would be a First Class type setting to match up with the First Class film in the works. Funny how a series may or may not take influence from the film counterparts: Batman TAS took some very obvious cues from Tim Burton's films (the music, character designs of Catwoman and Penguin, Joker's real name or last known alias being 'Jack Napier', they even gave him a black hat & overcoat similar to Jack Nicholson's from the film & Mask of the Phantasm pegged him as a former mob hitman). "The Batman" debuted just ahead of "Batman Begins" and dealt with a rookie Batman, just like Begins (intentional Now X-Men: Evolution (which was also a First Class type setting, albeit mixing characters from different eras into the classroom) came out on the heels of the first X-Men film but except for Xavier having Captain Picard's accent & Rogue having only her absorption powers, EVO didn't seem to take that many cues from the films, though some insist that Jean's character design was meant to evoke Famke Janssen (personally I think she looked more like Ariel from the Little Mermaid). Then you have Wolvie & the X-Men, which took way more influences from the films than EVO did (Wolvie being the leading man, Magneto having Gandalf's accent in addition to Xavier having Picard's accent, passive aggressively hinting that Wolverine is Jean's 'one true love' while making Cyclops look bad, heck Rogue's character design looked like a cartoon version of Anna Pacquin). Time will tell what the next X-Men series has in store for us, and if it is indeed a First Class deal, how does one make it different from Evolution? I know, simple answer: focus on the classic 5, who've never gotten to star in their own series even though they've made various appearances across the 3 X-Men shows of the last few years.

[TheVileOne]

It's not too soon. Sony/Madhouse is already producing a new X-men animation with a story by Warren Ellis. The Wolverine anime is next after Iron Man. And Wolverine is the most popular X-man anyway. So they are doing a 12 episode Wolverine show and a 12 episode X-men show.

[W.C.Reaf]

And that's the conundrum with comic book shows. Do we really need 10 Spider-Man cartoons? There's small differences between them sure (mainly to fit the time when they're made) but if you've seen one you've pretty much seen them all; unless you do something really different like Spider-Man Unlimited did.

Well only 3 of them actually did anything close to the Spidey comics. Those were the SM-TAS, the MTV one, and SSM. There just wasn't any real interpersonal drama, the continuing subplots, the development of Spidey's love life, or the menace of his rogues gallery in the other shows.

Plus SM-TAS drew from the 90s era comics, MTV from the movies, and SSM from the Lee/Ditko/Romita era. The new Ultimate sounds like it's going to be drawing mainly from the Ultimate line. So they are all pretty different from each other with the stories they told and how they told them.

Hardly interchangeable. Spidey has a rich history that none of the cartoons have touched, same with X-men and the others.

[Manhunter]

[/B]
EVO didn't seem to take that many cues from the films, though some insist that Jean's character design was meant to evoke Famke Janssen (personally I think she looked more like Ariel from the Little Mermaid).

I read somewhere that Jean's Evo design was based on Charisma Carpenter.

As far as a new X-Men series goes, I'd like to see them try something novel like starting from the real beginning (the original 5).

[W.C.Reaf]

As far as a new X-Men series goes, I'd like to see them try something novel like starting from the real beginning (the original 5).

Here lies the problem with X-men and other media, there's just too many characters and they're all someone’s favourite.

If I asked 10 people to make an X-Men team and do a story around them for a cartoon or movie I'd get 10 different answers with some variations on themes. Everyone has different favourite characters and ones they hate so any team line up is impossible for people to like 100%.

Doing it set at the beginning could restrict later fan favourite characters coming in, like Shadowcat from the Claremont era and Gambit form the Lee ere. There's a reason why the cartoons and movies had lots of cameo's (and why the movies now seem to be based around getting as many cameo's as possible) it's to get as many of the fans happy about them showing someone’s favourite character.

I would like to see an original 5 series and I think it might be great; however they'd have to add Wolverine in there because you can't do X-Men now without Wolverine.

[Silverstar]

As far as a new X-Men series goes, I'd like to see them try something novel like starting from the real beginning (the original 5).

I'd like to see that too (in fact, that's kind of what I wanted X-Men: Evolution to be), but an X-Men show centering on the early days with the original team would mean no Gambit, no Storm, no Shadowcat, no Rogue, no Nightcrawler and....*gasp* NO WOLVERINE, which can never happen now, as W.C. pointed out.

Also, the 5 original mutants were all Caucasian, which wouldn't fly in this era of Political Correctness. They'd probably have to alter the roster or make 1 or 2 of them non-white for ethnic diversity.

[TheVileOne]

My question would be why is that era so sacred and precious to see it adapted in animation? It's the beginning and everything, but honestly I think some of those stories are dated and not relevant anymore. The X-men really became the powerhouse it is known for in the 1970's. I'm sure you could reference the early stories in some sense like Wolverine and The X-men did. In the Cyclops episode, you got a flashback to a time that featured the original 5. X-men Evolution did a teamup episode that referenced the original group. Sort of like how Avengers starts with the original team coming together. But I mean, that's it really. I don't think its important to do a whole show based on that team.

I will be very surprised if Wolverine is not in the new Madhouse anime. And I wonder if Marvel had to pull rank over it at all when editorial has basically shoved Wolverine into pretty much every book.

[Trevor]

With the X-Men I think a lot of people would like to see a team that involves Wolverine, Gambit, and Rogue with her Ms. Marvel powers. A series similar to the 90's series, but different enough that when you looked at all the X-Men animation the series could stand out from the 90's, Evolution and WATXM series. And no more Hellfire Club (I really don't know why the 90's or WATXM series covered those stories, since the episodes that dealt specifically with HC were pretty boring).

And with Spider-Man, I think a lot of people would enjoy a Spider-Man show that is like the 1967 or 1981 show that had plots that are truly meant for cartoons and are illogical. Spider-Man (1994) had a couple of stories or plot ideas that were really illogical (spider-web being strong enough to hold-up a crumbling ceiling for even a few seconds) and Spider-Man Unlimited was following that with the alternate-Earth idea, but it was cancelled (due to Marvel's bankruptcy) before it really got going. And the recent Sony series were very "logical" in their stories and ended up with stories that were working against them than working for them and just made the plots slow and boring.

But for both, for new series, I think a lot of people would like it if the stories were good and interesting and throw you some unexpected "illogical" twists and turns that seem logical. And the art and animation would have to be close to that of the 90's series for both and maybe not look so much like it was just drawn on a computer using polygons and then just colored with Photoshop or Paint. Maybe something along the lines of the old Looney Tunes cartoons.

[W.C.Reaf]

With the X-Men I think a lot of people would like to see a team that involves Wolverine, Gambit, and Rogue with her Ms. Marvel powers. A series similar to the 90's series, but different enough that when you looked at all the X-Men animation the series could stand out from the 90's,

I don't think this is a good way to go. I'm having flashbacks to when The Batman was starting and there was a lot of complaints that it wasn't the 90s series. If they tried something like this I'm sure the same thing would happen.

I think they should just try something new and not try to replicate the success of the old series.

[Trevor]

I think they should just try something new and not try to replicate the success of the old series.


There are only so many times when they can do something "new" before they need to start making "new" a different twist on what has already come before.

[W.C.Reaf]

X-Men has been around since the 60s with God only knows how many issues and spin off titles and has only had 3 cartoon series. If no one on the current staff has any new ideas then they need to find new people.

As I said you ask 10 people what they'd like from an X-men series/movie and they'd give you 10 different story ideas and team line ups. There is a near infinite possible team mash-ups based on how fast the comics are creating new mutants.

Both the 90s show and WatX pulled from both (then) current teams and old classic stories with their own (then) modern twist on things and we got two completely different series. By the time we get a new series and if they use the then current team we'd get something different as well.

So I don't think we have to worry about them running out of "new" twists if they can do that.

[JTMarsh]

I don't think this is a good way to go. I'm having flashbacks to when The Batman was starting and there was a lot of complaints that it wasn't the 90s series. If they tried something like this I'm sure the same thing would happen.

I think they should just try something new and not try to replicate the success of the old series.
Yeah, you've got a point there. After all, Superman Returns tried to replicate the feel of the old Chris Reeve Superman films and look where that got them.

[ZmaXcharmvill3]

This might seem like a stupid question, but why don't they just use the money fron a possible new X-Men show and continue Wolverine and The X-Men?

W&tXM was canceled because of money issues, not because the network didn't want it, so why not? It would be better than starting all over again with a new show.

[Silverstar]

This might seem like a stupid question, but why don't they just use the money fron a possible new X-Men show and continue Wolverine and The X-Men?

W&tXM was canceled because of money issues, not because the network didn't want it, so why not? It would be better than starting all over again with a new show.


Um, because Wolverine & the X-Men wasn't very good?

-Seriously though, in all honesty I'd rather get a new series than a continuation of W&tXM. The nicest thing I can say about W&tXM is that it had some potentially good ideas, but ultimately it was a confused mess.

I'd rather we get a new X-Men show which doesn't deliberately promote one character over all of the others.

[JTMarsh]

Um, because Wolverine & the X-Men wasn't very good?

-Seriously though, in all honesty I'd rather get a new series than a continuation of W&tXM. The nicest thing I can say about W&tXM is that it had some potentially good ideas, but ultimately it was a confused mess.

I'd rather we get a new X-Men show which doesn't deliberately promote one character over all of the others.
I'm inclined to agree.

As for not continuing W&TXM with a sequel series, there could be copyright/legal issues at hand there, seeing as how W&TXM was owned by Lionsgate, even if Disney wanted to make a sequel series to it, that may require some legal red tape cutting with the Lionsgate people.

[W.C.Reaf]

This might seem like a stupid question, but why don't they just use the money fron a possible new X-Men show and continue Wolverine and The X-Men?

W&tXM was canceled because of money issues, not because the network didn't want it, so why not? It would be better than starting all over again with a new show.

Well as far as we know there isn't a new X-Men series in production at the moment, so no money they could've used for WatX.

[Trevor]

I'm inclined to agree.

As for not continuing W&TXM with a sequel series, there could be copyright/legal issues at hand there, seeing as how W&TXM was owned by Lionsgate, even if Disney wanted to make a sequel series to it, that may require some legal red tape cutting with the Lionsgate people.

When did Lionsgate ever have more than US home video distribution rights to the series? From what I've seen in the credits to the show (on both the US and Canadian releases) if there was any legal issues with the producers of the show, it would be from Liberation, not Lionsgate. (Liberation held the international broadcast rights as well as numerous international distribution rights, while Marvel held the US broadcast rights http://www.noblepr.co.uk/Press_Releases/liberation/wolverine.htm).

So the only "red tape" that Marvel and Disney might have with Lionsgate is on the home video front.

Plus, according to this, Marvel and Disney, if they didn't own 100% of the show, then they own at least 2/3 (the majority) of the show after Marvel bought First Serve: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sci-tech/toonz-marvel-tie-up-for-second-part-of-x-men-series_100126335.html

[TheVileOne]

Well as far as we know there isn't a new X-Men series in production at the moment, so no money they could've used for WatX.

Except for the Madhouse X-men anime that's in production. That's a new series in production.

[Gokou Ruri]

Except for the Madhouse X-men anime that's in production. That's a new series in production. That was planned for a few years, though. Plus it's an attempt to penetrate the extremely hard to penetrate Japanese market, which WATX failed to do (Actually, I'm not sure if WATX even aired in Japan. I should ask my friend there if it did) so it's not really the same kind of 52+ episode show they can air every day.

[W.C.Reaf]

Except for the Madhouse X-men anime that's in production. That's a new series in production.

But that's a separate deal that was made a while before WatX's funding ended. So contracts had been signed and there's no way they'd be able to put money from the Anime into WatX.

[TheVileOne]

But that's a separate deal that was made a while before WatX's funding ended. So contracts had been signed and there's no way they'd be able to put money from the Anime into WatX.

That's not what we are talking about though. You said there is no new X-men series in production at the moment. The fact of the matter is that there is. It's not finished yet, it's currently in production, and at some point it will air in the US and it has a TV broadcast deal in place.


That was planned for a few years, though. Plus it's an attempt to penetrate the extremely hard to penetrate Japanese market, which WATX failed to do (Actually, I'm not sure if WATX even aired in Japan. I should ask my friend there if it did) so it's not really the same kind of 52+ episode show they can air every day.

Why is that relevant to the conversation? I thought the conversation was about is it too soon for a new X-men animated series. Well, I believe it's not too soon, and a new show is currently being produced.

X-men Evolution reportedly played well in Japan, though I have no idea about Wolverine and The X-men. I see that you tempered your argument, but where is the report that the show failed at all in Japan?

[W.C.Reaf]

That's not what we are talking about though. You said there is no new X-men series in production at the moment. The fact of the matter is that there is. It's not finished yet, it's currently in production, and at some point it will air in the US and it has a TV broadcast deal in place.

If you'd check the post I quoted at the top of the page I was responding to this (http://toonzone.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3662879&postcount=19) about why Marvel couldn't just funnel the money from a new X-Men animated series into WatX.

I had forgotten about the Anime they're making so when you reminded me I responded with a reason why they couldn't fund WatX with the money for the Anime.

I think we might've gotten our wires crossed here.

[TheVileOne]

If you'd check the post I quoted at the top of the page I was responding to this (http://toonzone.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3662879&postcount=19) about why Marvel couldn't just funnel the money from a new X-Men animated series into WatX.

I had forgotten about the Anime they're making so when you reminded me I responded with a reason why they couldn't fund WatX with the money for the Anime.

I think we might've gotten our wires crossed here.

I'm sorry it just seemed like you were confused and unaware of the new series. But clearly there is a new show in production and that money will not be funneled into more Wolverine And The X-men. Jeph Loeb was positive to the possibility of a maybe future continuation of the show somewhere down the line. I'm not expecting that to happen, but it's encouraging that Jeph Loeb at least was saying they are open to it.

The only thing at this point that I think would send a message is if the complete DVD set hit some ridiculous numbers like Family Guy.

[Gokou Ruri]

Why is that relevant to the conversation? Ah, well like W.C.Reaf said, your comment made it imply you figured they could divert funds from the X-Men anime to WATX. Miscommunication I suppose.

[W.C.Reaf]

I'm sorry it just seemed like you were confused and unaware of the new series.

It's ok. With topics like this where people are talking about 5 different things at once it's easy to get confused about who's talking about what.