Lost "What They Died For" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Temple Fugate]

Destiny Found

http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/abc.jpghttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/tjats/lost6s.jpg


Lost
Season 6 Episode 15: "What They Died For"
Tuesday, May 18 @ 9pm EDT/PDT
Writers: Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz & Elzabeth Sarnoff
Director: Paul A. Edwards

Island factions regroup in anticipation of the final confrontation.

Previously on Lost:
118: Across the Sea (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=267964)
117: The Candidate (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=267716)
116: The Last Recruit (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=267177)
115: Everybody Loves Hugo (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=266881)
114: Happily Ever After (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=266631)
The Complete Lost Talkback Archive (http://www.catomix.com/lost/lost.html)

Missed an episode? Watch Lost on-line at abc.com (http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landing).

Please keep discussion of previews and rumors of unaired episodes in spoiler boxes.

Let the talkback begin!

[Neo Ultra Mike]

You know I'm glad that this is the second to last episode, because this is offically the last time they can tease us with the promise of actually answering our questions and then finally being able to deliever on them. We learned a few things in tonight's episode but there were a lot more teases then there were anything else. Like what exactly does Desmond have to do with what Widmore had planned, and how is Smokey going to get him to blow up the island. Yeah I'm still on Smokey's side BTW. Yeah maybe Jacob learned from his crazy mother's mistake about giving people a choice, and he did point out the people he brought the island were all miserable in some form or another beforehand, but he still did a poor as hell job answering they're questions. (And really dosen't him bringing them to the island backpeddle the notion that it was Desmond's doing from the Season 2 finale. What were the writers lying about that when that season ended or what?). Still have no idea what the light is (though Jacob and MIB's reaction state that the Monster is at least partially man in black. Not just creature using his body bull) or a lot of the other island's secrets but hey maybe they'll be solved in the last episode. Well they better be since nothing else will really solve them.

Okay there were some good parts of this epiosde: I did enjoy all of Miles smary remarks (though really is he going to play any part in the last ep?) as well as smoke monster offing Richard (guess he isn't. Oh well my interest in Richard dimmed once we learned his story and really if he was just "blow up the plane" and "I can talk to him" then we didn't really need him that much) and converting Ben to his side. I'm guessing based on Flashsideways Ben remembering this universe Ben does have a deeper connection to the group then some might think (guess since he was on the second plane crash and all) and did like him wanting to actually see Charles get his. Really even if Charles has noble reasons and did supposedly see the light when Jacob talked to him, he still went about it in a horrible, horrible way. And hey with him dead (payback by Ben) and Zoey gone (yeah can't say I ever really liked her ever) guess there's no point in the rest of his group so we probably won't really be seeing them. I also did like how Sun, Jin and Sayid's death woke the others up on taking out Smokey and that leaving the island ain't priority number one. And really I can understand why Jack elected himself: I think that he has more of a reason to guard the island then they do and really they do have some bits of life that they can clean up off the island. Why do I have a feeling though that the Kate-Jack-Sawyer Love triangle will come between Kate wanting to stay with Jack or leave with Sawyer? I hope that WON'T be the focus of the next ep since it's not really that interesting an angle. Oh and hey Jack now that you're the new Jacob how about you tell your friends/us what you learned about the island. ANd prove you're better then Jacob by actually sharing things with people you trust.

The flashsideways verse was also pretty good. Nice to see Jack, Claire and his son having a stable reltationship (though really they need to say who the mom is in the next ep. That's a mystery that needs answering) and Locke realizing that he needs to let go and let Jack fix him. Hey Locke even got to work in that "this is all happening for a reason" line that was pumped down our throats in the promos. Also good that Ben, Danielle and Alex have a solid relationship here (though what is with this show and never delving into the Alex/Danille relationship? Besides the fact it much prefers Ben over them as characters) and I liked Ben approaching Desmond (though really for a teacher shouldn't you know better then to go up to a dangerous man and say "I'm making a citizen's arrest". Yeah that's just asking for trouble), as well as Desmond purposley putting himself in prison to be close to Sayid and Kate, and then somehow having negoiated a deal with Hurley and Ana Lucia (so what is she a dirty cop in this verse? Really kind of sad that may be her only part in the 6th season) to go to some fancy ball. Oh well it's not as creepy as the last time someone forced Kate to dress up fancy. Still I can buy them building up something and getting a resolution more then I can the main verse sadly enough.

So though there were good moments this was still annoying for how they purposeley were leading us on and not hoping it would just be the guide to the final ep. Really I guess that was the point but it was more irritating then it could of been, even though it did have it's moments.

[Lelouch]

Wow. Did this show REALLY just take the most predictable route possible and make Jack the next Jacob? I was hoping they would do something a bit more surprising, or at least interesting. Instead, we get what people have suspected since the first season, how incredibly lame. Ah well, I suppose it can't be changed, maybe MiB will be able to kill all of them and get off the island. Oh and while I felt bad for Jacob's brother last episode, I am not so sure his brother and MiB are the same person...because that hasn't really been proved yet.

I really liked the flashsideways though, even if Desmund is a bit creepy. Everything is coming together quite nicely on that end, even if I still don't know where it is all heading. I wonder if you have to beat everyone half to death for them to realize their other persona. ANA LUCIA!! That was a big highlight for me, but I sincerely hope that is not her only scene, she better play a part in the finale...Walt better also, I will find it ridiculous if he doesn't make an appearance.

Other than that this episode was rather meh, as it gave even more questions. We better get a decent answer as to what the light really is, if they vaguely go about it then I will have to assume they BSed their way through most of this show. Oh and I am glad Ben is back to being evil, I hate seeing him so pathetic and...good, he makes a much better villain. And Mark is still playing an awful Jacob, hopefully this was his last appearance! One thing that confused me though...Jacob said he crossed Kate off because she became a mother an the others were on there because they were lonely...then I have to wonder why Sun and Jin weren't crossed off. They fell in love on the island and had a kid...sure Jin wasn't there for the child...but still, they weren't alone.

[jacob2037]

Tonight was a good episode. But I did have a few problems with it. Maybe I'm just in shock because there's only one more episode left, but I really felt like this episode moved too fast. I do like the action-packed, fast-moving episodes; but we're so close to the end and I feel like we aren't getting enough.

FLASHSIDEWAYS

While I felt the island-story moved to fast, I thought the flashsideways moved slightly too slow. Er, not too slow, but I really hoped they'd explain, at least partially, the significance of the flashsideways and how it's going to fit into everything. The producers have promised a good explanation of the flashsideways, so I still have faith that they'll give us a good explanation (because if they didn't, they would've wasted a whole season with nonsense and all the fans would be pissed, right?). But I have no idea how they're going to do that in the little bit of time they've got left. It sounds like Desmond X - and Hurley X, apparently - have got a plan, though, we just don't know what the heck it is.

It sounds like "the concert" will be the climax in this story. I thought we'd find out who David's mom was in this episode, but we didn't. When I saw Michelle Rodriguez's name in the credits, I was thinking it'd be Ana Lucia. But she's just a cop. I'm thinking Juliet, now, anyone else?

My favorite part of the flashsideways was Danielle Rousseau's appearance; I've always liked her character and I thought we'd never see her again, since the actress who played her asked to be written off the show because she hated Hawaii and never wanted to come back again. But, we did. And there was a good Ben moment in that scene in the Rousseau's house. I was really glad that we got quite a few good Ben moments in this episode, actually, since he's been kinda lame this whole season.

And then... Desmond gets Kate and Sayid on his side. Eh... we saw Ana Lucia again. I never liked her; she was still a jerk in this episode, but she was more of a comical jerk than a jerk you want to punch in the face, like she was in season two.

ISLAND

The meeting we've been waiting for all season, maybe even for a couple of seasons: Jack and Jacob. While I felt the meeting was satisfying, and Mark Pellegrino's performance was very good and sincere; it was still underwhelming. It was rushed, like I said earlier. I was NOT expecting Jack to jump up and accept the job; I kinda thought Jack would be a little bit ticked off at what Jacob said - essentially, he called them all losers, and said they needed to clean up his mess. Anyway, Jacob and Jack walked into the jungle - and... *drumroll* Jack is the new Jacob.

Good to see Miles, Richard, and Ben again. I was actually surprised that Smokey didn't even speak to Richard. I really hope Richard isn't dead; he was an awesome character and it would really suck if that was his death scene.

Probably the best element of this episode, both in the main timeline and the flashsideways, was Ben. We saw classic (seasons 4 & 5) Ben again tonight, who had been missing for awhile. I was very happy that he was able to kill Widmore - Widmore may have truly been good, but I have to admit I was rooting for Ben in that battle. As for Ben seemingly going back to the dark side - well, I don't know what to make of that. I really enjoy evil Ben more than "good" Ben. I don't want him to die evil, though. I do think he will have to end up dying.

Where did Miles go? I must've missed that part.

So, I assume the finale will be the race to the "light", and a whole bunch of other epic stuff.

Oh yeah. By the way, I hated those little reminders from the writers - there were several of them - "it's almost over", "the end is almost here", etcetera etcetera. It's like they're rubbing the fact that the show is almost over in our faces.

QUESTIONS (believe it or not, I still have a million of them)

But the most important ones, based on tonight's episode, are...

1. What the heck are the rules, both the rules between Jacob & MiB and between Ben & Widmore? What are the consequences for breaking them (because, the rules seemingly can be broken - or changed)?
2. Is Richard Alpert still alive? (I don't think MiB can kill him, unless he broke the rules.)
3. How was Ben able to kill Widmore? Did he break the rules, or change them, or are the rules between those two no longer effective, since Widmore is on Jacob's side or something?
4. Why won't the castaways even spare a few words for Frank, if he's really dead. :(
5. Why did Sayid, Sun, and Jin die? Kate asked Jacob that question, but I don't think he ever specifically answered it.
6. Where's Claire?

...

I'm still wondering about this in particular from a few episodes ago...

...

7. WHO"S COMING TO THE ISLAND? They devoted a whole episode to "Wallace", and "Wallace" is still not there! It's not Charles Widmore - because his name is not Wallace, it's not Desmond Hume, because his name isn't Wallace either. I really hope they don't just say it was Desmond, and that Wallace was his middle name or something. But I really don't see how Wallace will fit into all of the chaos that will take place this Sunday.

ANSWERS

1. We know why Jacob chose Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, etc.
2. The job of island-protector is open to anyone, even those who have had their names crossed off.
3. We know why Desmond was brought to the island.
4. We know how Widmore was able to find the island.

DEATHS :evil:

Charles Widmore
Zoe

MAN IN BLACK'S NEW RECRUITS

Benjamin Linus

THIS SEASON SO FAR

6x1 - "LA X" - A+
6x2 - "What Kate Does" - B+
6x3 - "The Substitute" - A-
6x4 - "The Lighthouse" - A+
6x5 - "Sundown" - B-
6x6 - "Dr. Linus" - A+
6x7 - "Recon" - B+
6x8 - "Ab Aeterno" - A+
6x9 - "The Package" - A-
6x10 - "Happily Ever After" - B+
6x11 - "Everybody Loves Hugo" - A+
6x12 - "The Last Recruit" - A+
6x13 - "The Candidate" - A+
6x14 - "Across the Sea" - B-
6x15 - "What They Died For" - B+

[Brandon Pierce]

So long Zoe, we hardly knew ye.

Widmore may not be dead... was he shot in the chest or stomach? Yeah, they're both fatal shots, and I didn't see any blood, plus he fell behind a desk. If Widmore was smart, he would have brought a bullet proof vest or something. Or maybe he was just Ilana-stupid.

Yeah, I'm disappointed that Jack became the new Jacob. But, on the other hand, I'm glad that it was Jack who volunteered, instead of Jacob making the decision.

When Hurley said "I'm glad it's not me".... I dunno, that line scarred me. It made me think, "Hurley's gonna die now somehow."

If Miles was still nearby, maybe he could "read" Zoe and Widmore's corpses... that is if both are dead. Well, ZOe obviously is, but I think we haven't seen the last of Widmore.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Great, great episode. Last week was a bit odd, but this week we got the flow back. Jack's journey is complete, or at least nearly there.

Man, can't wait for Sunday!!

[mumbo]

We're rolling toward the finale now. Usually the penultimate episodes before the season finales are dull as they're just about putting the people in place, but this one was great. Ben's back to his ruthless self. A bit frustrated how Jacob never actually answered what Sayid, Jin, and Sun died for. But we're really on the cusp of figuring out the meaning of these flashsideways, so I can't wait for that. And Jack replacing Jacob...it's predictable but necessary. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if Jack *wasn't* the one.

But here's the question that's been burning on my mind for years now, and I really hope they answer it...

What's the deal with Walt?!!

[li_mangaman]

What's the deal with Walt?!!
He's special.

[Yojimbo]

I'm thinking Juliet, now, anyone else?Yeah, I think it's Juliet. She may pay off that dutch line she gave to Sawyer before she died in "LA X" but it's still a 50/50 between her and Sarah.


Where did Miles go? I must've missed that part.He said he was going into the jungle so he's by himself at this point like Claire.


1. What the heck are the rules, both the rules between Jacob & MiB and between Ben & Widmore? What are the consequences for breaking them (because, the rules seemingly can be broken - or changed)?I guess the one between Ben and Widmore was some variation on chivalry/Bushido/Golden Rule etc. and Others can't kill each other's children. But apparently, it's more of a guideline than a rule. :sweat:


4. Why won't the castaways even spare a few words for Frank, if he's really dead. :(Bummer.


5. Why did Sayid, Sun, and Jin die? Kate asked Jacob that question, but I don't think he ever specifically answered it.Everyone that has died on the show, died directly or indirectly because the light needed to be protected.


6. Where's Claire?:shrug: Did she help Desmond out the well or was it Sayid before he reunited with SLocke?


7. WHO"S COMING TO THE ISLAND? They devoted a whole episode to "Wallace", and "Wallace" is still not there! It's not Charles Widmore - because his name is not Wallace, it's not Desmond Hume, because his name isn't Wallace either. I really hope they don't just say it was Desmond, and that Wallace was his middle name or something. But I really don't see how Wallace will fit into all of the chaos that will take place this Sunday.It was Widmore. He even said Jacob told him how to come back and everything else. "Wallace" was just another candidate who happened to be 108 and the camera happened to stop on that name. Just a red herring, imo.


When Hurley said "I'm glad it's not me".... I dunno, that line scarred me. It made me think, "Hurley's gonna die now somehow."I don't think they'd kill Hurley despite everything...


What's the deal with Walt?!!He's special. (EDIT: LOL, beat to the punch) I have a feeling we may get a cameo in the finale. The whole he grew up so fast won't work anymore since its 2007 and who knows when the final scene will take place, in 07 or years later.

FLASH SIDEWAYS - DESMOND'S THE MAN WITH A PLAN

Things that are the same


Aaron kicks like crazy inside Claire
Desmond beats up Ben
Ben is in a sling
Danielle is Alex's mother
Alex's father is dead
Ben cries about Alex
Licke realizes it is all happening for a reason
Jack doesn't agree with Locke's take on fate
Ana Lucia is a LA cop
Ana Lucia is a little crass
Hurley has the Camaro
Kate is given a dress by a strange man



Things that aren't the same


Ben goes willingly with Danielle and Alex
Sawyer doesn't help Kate
Ana Lucia isn't ready yet
Desmond doesn't serve his jail time



Ah, they jerk us off to who David's mother is yet again. Not all that surprised. But Jack's neck cut flares up again...

Something I wasn't sure of but did Desmond want Ben to see flashes, too, since Ben wasn't on Oceanic 815? Desmond would have known about Ben since he had tons of flashes already.

Was Danielle coming onto Ben?!

Loved Ana-Lucia's appearance. "Do I know you, Tubby?" had me laughing. I miss that sass from season 2.

2007 - NOW, YOU'RE LIKE ME

Loved Miles and Ben's exchange. "Where is it, in a cookie jar?"/"A secret room behind the bookcase..." and "A secreter room?"

I really hope that wasn't it for Richard otherwise, that'd have been one of the lamest deaths on the show. Other than Charles falling behind a prop after Ben shoots him. But I guess the explanation of Jacob coming to Charles makes sense since he approached Sayid and Hurley in 2007, too. And it explains how Charles had the list of candidates names. And Desmond was Jacob's fail-safe. Huh? So Jacob met Desmond before and touched him like the other candidates?

Did like the irony of Jacob putting his ashes in a fire, when SLocke kicked Jacob into his fire in the Foot in the last season finale. Kate's motherhood as the reason for her name crossed out was so obvious. So the real reason everyone died was all to protect the Light. Glad to see my review of the pilot paid off and that was the same bamboo forest Jack landed in as when Mother took Jacob and Brother to the Cave. I had to laugh at Jacob's response to if SLocke could be killed, "I hope so." But equally, I liked it when Jacob choked up at Jack's responses.

Not sure how SLocke's going to destroy the Island. Have Ben kill everyone while he flies into the Light? I don't get how they're going to find it if the Man in Black couldn't. And so, they still have to find Desmond and I guess he has to enter the Cave? Or will the desired effect happen if Desmond cranks the Frozen Donkey Wheel?

[EinBebop]

"I think you're mistaking coincidence for fate." - Jack to Locke

"Don't mistake coincidence for fate." - Mr. Eko to Locke, season 2

No, my memory's not that good. I just happened to rewatch that episode yesterday. In regards to Eko showing up with the missing piece of the training film from the other side of the island, incidentally.


Desmond takes the water ride into the light.

[Brandon Pierce]

I had a weird dream last night that I was watching the series finale. In the opening scene it showed Ben and Jack showing up at a mental institution, to see Kate. Kate was laying on a couch, and when she sees Jack and Ben, she snaps, and takes off running out of the hospital only to get tackled by a nurse...... who happens to be Carla from Scrubs.

[underdog]

Good episode, I think it had some good prepping for the finale -tying things together with the start of bringing everyone from the other reality together.

Kind of funny that they had a "tribal council" going on near the end, since it's been known that the origins of the show came from a then ABC network president's insistence to develop a "Castaway"/"Survivor" like show.

[El Dahveed]

Well, interesting episode, for sure! I'd have to say, however, that I was more interested in the flash-sideways rather than the main island plot. And now, thanks to Desmond's cryptic "we're going to a concert" comment to Kate, I've begun to wonder if the concert he's talking about is the one with Daniel Faraday, or David Shepherd (he mentioned a piano 'concert' to his dad early in the same episode.)
Was anyone else half-expecting for the "protector-crowning" moment to be interrupted?

[Young Justice]

Another great episode. Setting perfectly for the finale this Sunday. I can't wait to see what will happen.

I'm on the team that thought that the crowing of Jack into Island protector would be interrupted. I'm glad it didn't.

About being the most obvious choice of Jacob's replacement, I agree it was. But there's two points of consideration:

- After all we saw Jack doing this season, he turning from Man of Science to Man of faith, jumping from a boat mid-sea to prove his beliefs of not leaving the island etc. I would be not right if he didn't step up on Jacob's request.

- The game is not over yet. Anything can happen until the end. Jack could die for instance. We don't know. Even MIB could win in the end.

I was disappointed about Ben switching sides. I was enjoying the good Ben. Don't get me wrong, I like the evil Ben as well, but I was enjoying the change. I think he changed sides too rapidly, it felt rushed to me. I think in the end he will betray MIB.

I didn't liked that Widmore died this way. I was hoping to see more about his rivalry with Ben explained. Maybe we will get some of it in the finale.

About Jack now having the knowledge of Jacob's, it wouldn't be nice if the next episode started repeating the scene of Jack drinking the magic water again, and the knowledge that Jack gains is shown to us as a filmed sequence, so it would be the Island flashback that we all want to see.

I'm planning a little finale party with a friend. Are you guys doing the same?

[Discloner]

The flashsideways verse was also pretty good. Nice to see Jack, Claire and his son having a stable reltationship (though really they need to say who the mom is in the next ep. That's a mystery that needs answering) and Locke realizing that he needs to let go and let Jack fix him. I'm fairly confident they will. My theory is that:
Juliet is his mom. It make sense. In Timeline A Jack doesn't have a son, but in timeline B he does because if the island was gone Juliette would have never gone to it, thus freeing her up to run into Jack and have a son. I can't think of any other character they'd purposefully be width-holding for so long.
Thoughts?


- The game is not over yet. Anything can happen until the end. Jack could die for instance. We don't know. Even MIB could win in the end. It wouldn't surprise me if Jack didn't STAY protector by the time the series ends. If anything....eerily...it's a perfect job for Ben, since really he could be 'King of the Island'.


I'm planning a little finale party with a friend. Are you guys doing the same?A local club is having a 'LOST Finale' Party/viewing - which I think is a neat idea, though I'm passing on because I want to actually WATCH the finale and hear it all. Instead, I too am inviting some friends over for a mini-lost party. We'll probably get a bunch of snacky food, print up a handful of Dharma Labels (http://maxpictures.com/weblog/2007/04/10/lost-labels-for-your-dharma-initiative-needs/), and enjoy it from the comfort of our couch. Quietly and Carefully. :p

[Young Justice]

A local club is having a 'LOST Finale' Party/viewing - which I think is a neat idea, though I'm passing on because I want to actually WATCH the finale and hear it all. Instead, I too am inviting some friends over for a mini-lost party. We'll probably get a bunch of snacky food, print up a handful of Dharma Labels (http://maxpictures.com/weblog/2007/04/10/lost-labels-for-your-dharma-initiative-needs/), and enjoy it from the comfort of our couch. Quietly and Carefully. :p

That's my idea either. It will be a little event with my friend and his wife, my wife and me. Some drinks, some chips and watching the episode with full attention. :)

[Aquadementia]

So, why did all the other people on the plane die?
Bad luck, I guess. Unless they were all loosers enough to be on Jacobs list.

This episode was very straight forward, by Lost standards.

Of course Jack was the one to take Jacobs place, now that John is dead.
Like Sawyer is going to fight him for it.
And Kate is a runner.
Hurley would have made an interesting choice. I could see him going “Harlem Globetrotters on Gilligans Island” with it. No way he would spend the rest of his life on that island without opening a Mr. Clucks Chicken Shack. Free chicken: that’s rule number one.

I’m glad to see something happening in Universe B, other then it being every ones better path.

I know it’s wrong, but I was actually laughing at Desmond’s brutal attack on Ben. He is such a regular guy, but a good beating helped him understand who he really is and why he deserves it. His knowing what he’s capable of made his dinner with Rousseau intense.

It must be Daniels’ concert they are going to, except the time line doesn’t quite work. Locke should have been in the hospital for a good long time.
Will the show climax as Daniel uses Drive Shaft (another brothers reference) and the power of Rock n’ Roll to save the day?


Wow. Did this show REALLY just take the most predictable route possible and make Jack the next Jacob? I was hoping they would do something a bit more surprising, or at least interesting. Instead, we get what people have suspected since the first season, how incredibly lame. Come on now. We didn't have a clue to anything in season one.




1. What the heck are the rules, both the rules between Jacob & MiB and between Ben & Widmore? What are the consequences for breaking them (because, the rules seemingly can be broken - or changed)?
In the end I think we'll find out there are no rules.




When Hurley said "I'm glad it's not me".... I dunno, that line scarred me. It made me think, "Hurley's gonna die now somehow." Kill Hurley? Maybe if everyone needs to die and he's the last one. Otherwise why risk a fan riot.



I had to laugh at Jacob's response to if SLocke could be killed, "I hope so." But equally, I liked it when Jacob choked up at Jack's responses. I still kind of think the island is on an eternal cycle. If they kill Brother they'll save the day, but sooner or later a new smoke monster will spring up. But maybe he'll be less of a jerk as far smoke monsters go, and Jack can be less of jerk as far as guardians go.


Desmond takes the water ride into the light.Weeeeeeeee! Then Ka-Boom!



I didn't liked that Widmore died this way. I was hoping to see more about his rivalry with Ben explained. Maybe we will get some of it in the finale.
I did like the way Widmore died, because we got Bad-ass Ben manipulating Brother even, and I can't wait to see what he's got cooked up.
But the rivalry between Ben and Widmore could have used a whole episode to itself.



One last thought, when the plane crashed and that guy got sucked into the engine because the smoke monster supposedly was on a rampage and made the thing spin-up, wouldn't it be something if he showed up in Universe B and turned out to be his greatest threat, and that's why he killed him first.

[Yojimbo]

I still kind of think the island is on an eternal cycle. If they kill Brother they'll save the day, but sooner or later a new smoke monster will spring up. But maybe he'll be less of a jerk as far smoke monsters go, and Jack can be less of jerk as far as guardians go.

One last thought, when the plane crashed and that guy got sucked into the engine because the smoke monster supposedly was on a rampage and made the thing spin-up, wouldn't it be something if he showed up in Universe B and turned out to be his greatest threat, and that's why he killed him first.Dunno. I thought the Monster was an anomaly. Jacob broke a rule and sent someone into the cave. It wasn't meant to happen. Jacob just had a moment of weakness. Killing the Monster puts things back straight again. I'd be curious to see if Jack will start a new group of Others to act as his middle men or not, live in the Foot or elsewhere, rebuild stuff on the Island...:sweat:

I remember from an interview, Lindelof and Cuse said in the season one finale, if Jack and co. hadn't saved Locke from being pulled into that hole (Cerberus vent) by the Monster, he would have become a second one. Wish I had the link.

On the last podcast, they answered a fan's question about this. He got sucked in the engine. That's it. The Monster wasn't involved and it didn't read Troupe's manuscript for Bad Twin.

[Young Justice]

Dunno. I thought the Monster was an anomaly. Jacob broke a rule and sent someone into the cave. It wasn't meant to happen. Jacob just had a moment of weakness. Killing the Monster puts things back straight again. I'd be curious to see if Jack will start a new group of Others to act as his middle men or not, live in the Foot or elsewhere, rebuild stuff on the Island...

There's a theory on Lostpedia that says Mother was the Smoke Monster before Brother. It's an explanation of how she managed to close the well and kill all the villagers in such short time (Brother was unconscious for what, some hours?)

Then she was killed (by the knife Dogen gave to Sayid. She was killed without being allowed to say a word) and when Jacob tossed Brother into the light he became the Smoke Monster. Mother could have planned this all along counting on how Brother and Jacob would react. She intended to die so that both brothers would replace her in her duties: protector of the island and smoke monster.

[Aquadementia]

Dunno. I thought the Monster was an anomaly. Jacob broke a rule and sent someone into the cave. It wasn't meant to happen. Jacob just had a moment of weakness. Killing the Monster puts things back straight again. It could be that Jacob going "Cain" on his brother set thing out of whack. But the island seems to find people to fill all the other roles, and the Egyptian reliefs probably pre-date Brother.


I'd be curious to see if Jack will start a new group of Others to act as his middle men or not, live in the Foot or elsewhere, rebuild stuff on the Island...:sweat:Jacob did pretty well for himself living under feet, but I think if Jack has to live there for 2 millennium he may want to take up golf.
And if the others are his people, the good guys, he should be able to find better leaders then Ben or Widmore.


I remember from an interview, Lindelof and Cuse said in the season one finale, if Jack and co. hadn't saved Locke from being pulled into that hole (Cerberus vent) by the Monster, he would have become a second one. Wish I had the link.

On the last podcast, they answered a fan's question about this. He got sucked in the engine. That's it. The Monster wasn't involved and it didn't read Troupe's manuscript for Bad Twin.Thanks for the info, Yojimbo.
I just thought it was a goofy idea. It would be funny to see that guy again though. I hope Desmond doesn't give him a near death experience just to remember that.

That would make the pilot the first victim. So, that maybe makes more of Lapidus. Or maybe less of him. I don't know.

[The Penguin]

"My ashes are right there in that fire. When it burns out you'll never see me again."
"Ah, what?"
"You should get your friends; we're very close to the end, Hugo."

I got goose-bumps in several parts of this episode. I've only been watching since this fall when I started season one and got caught up by "Everybody Loves Hugo" but I just can't believe it's all coming to an end. Personally, I liked the 'end' comments, but I guess that's just me. I'm going to make you bear with me as I love meaningful quotes from really anything, including this show and there were a lot of them here at least in my eyes.

"I wanna know why. I wanna know that Sun and Jin and Sayid didn't die for nothing!"
"Come and sit down and I'll tell you what they died for. I'll tell you why I chose them and why I chose you. And then I'll tell you everything you need to know about protecting this island, because by the time that fire burns out, one of you is gonna have to start doing it."

"I brought all of you here because I made a mistake. A mistake I made a very long time ago and now because of that, there is a very good chance that every single one of you and everyone you've ever cared about is going to die."

Jacob's 'final meeting' with all the remaining candidates was a neat scene as it gave some insight into what he was thinking and perhaps gave some insight to the four of them as to where they were when they arrived there. Young Jacob snatching the ashes from Hurley and then his finding out that everyone could see him was cool. I really liked Jacob's comments to Sawyer.

"Tell me somethin' Jacob, why do I gotta be punished for your mistake? What made you think you could mess with my life? I was doin' just fine when you dragged my ass to this damn rock."
"No you weren't. None of you were. I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence. You were all flawed. I chose you because you were like me—you were all alone. You were all looking for something that you couldn't find out there. I chose you because you needed this place as much as it needed you."

And a lot of them really did need this place if you think about it. It healed them, made them face their fears, made them realize what was important, made them better people.

"I'll do it. This is why I'm here. This is... this is what I'm supposed to do."
"Is that a question, Jack?"
"No."
"Good. Then it's time."

Some of you say it's overly predictable that it at least appears that Jack will be the one to protect this place and perhaps it is (though not back to the first season, we didn't even know pieces of this stuff then), but Jack certainly never would have predicted it and that's what really important. It's an ensemble show, but Jack is the main character and from the crash to right now, this is a spectacular evolution.

"Past the bamboo... there's nothing out there."
"Yes there is, Jack, and now you'll be able to get there."

And it really is being brought full circle with Jack needing to return to where he was when he first arrived on the island. I wonder how far away that is.

"How long am I gonna have to do this job?"
"As long as you can."


[Ben & Locke]

"If Locke wants Desmond dead then we're gonna need him."

Little did Jack now how right he was. But, before we get to that, I must acknowledge some great lines from Ben that otherwise don't really fit...

"Let me guess, cookie jar."
"Don't be ridiculous—it's in my secret room behind the bookcase."

"Richard, it's your idea. Are we looking to cripple the plane or blow it to hell?"
"Blow it to hell."
"Then we'd better take it all."

I hope that is not the end for Richard. I'm not quite sure why Smokey did that, but perhaps he needed him out of the way because he thought it might be tougher to convince Ben to do some "work" for him with Richard around.

"Just the man I was lookin' for."
"Well you found me. Can I get you a glass of lemonade?"

I guess we'll see if Ben is actually with Locke or if he feels this is the best way to stop him. I feel like it's kind of a toss up.

"I need you to kill some people for me, Ben.
"And why would I do that?
"Because once I leave this island, you can have it all to yourself."
"All right."
"Good."

"If you shoot me, your last chance of survival will be gone."

I don't know if Charles Widemore was right, but Ben couldn't help but get one last piece of revenge over his long-time rival. ("He doesn't get to save his daughter.") An action like that says to me that Ben has actually thrown in his lot with Locke (after Ilana stopped him once before). I guess we'll see.

"Did you say there was some other people to kill?"


[Sideways]

"I'm not here to hurt him. I'm here to help him let go."

"While he was beating me, I think I saw something."

Lots of big events in the Sideways universe this week with Desmond X beating the memories of a beating into Dr. Linus and then Ben X's revealing conversation with Locke X kept things moving.

"The man told me that he wasn't trying to hurt you. He told me that he was trying to get you to let you go. And for some reason I believed him. Do you have any idea what he was talking about Mr. Locke? Does that mean something to you?"

Which then brought Locke X to meet Jack X. Surgery isn't an instant thing, but seeing these two brought back together again was nice to see...

"But what if all of this... Maybe this is happening for a reason. Maybe you're supposed to fix me."

"You're the closest thing to a father she's ever had."

Ben X hearing that from Danielle X was really great. :crying: This Ben has probably reached a point where he doesn't expect to have kids, so I think really meant a lot to him. No matter what else Ben has done, he loved Alex and seeing that brought full circle in the same episode where the island version passed over where she was buried was touching.

"After I set you free, I'm gonna ask each of you to do something, and you're gonna have to promise me that you’ll do it. So what do you say?"

I have no idea what Desmond X's plan is, but it is clearly in full motion with his using Hurley X to pay off Ana Lucia X and escape with Sayid X and Kate X. Business has picked up.


"What did Widemore say to you?"
"He said Desmond was a failsafe. Jacob's last resort in case God forbid, I managed to kill all of his beloved candidates. One final way to make sure I never leave this place."
"Then why are you happy that he's still alive?"
"Because I'm gonna find Desmond and when I do, he's gonna help me do the one thing that I could never do myself. I'm gonna destroy the island."

:eek:


4. Why won't the castaways even spare a few words for Frank, if he's really dead. :(I still say that this is intentional to leave us wondering (personally it gives me hope that he is alive). Since it was day when we rejoined our heroes, it is entirely plausible they talked about him off-screen. If Frank doesn't show up, I'll be disappointed, but if he does, I expect we will get at least a reaction to the effect of, or the actual statement "We thought you were dead."


But I guess the explanation of Jacob coming to Charles makes sense since he approached Sayid and Hurley in 2007, too. And it explains how Charles had the list of candidates names. And Desmond was Jacob's fail-safe. Huh? So Jacob met Desmond before and touched him like the other candidates?If I'm remembering correctly, no one arrives on the island without Jacob "bringing" them there so Desmond is supposed to be there as much as Jack is. They all have a purpose.

[Aquadementia]

"Just the man I was lookin' for."
"Well you found me. Can I get you a glass of lemonade?"
I'm really going to miss Ben.


I guess we'll see if Ben is actually with Locke or if he feels this is the best way to stop him. I feel like it's kind of a toss up.

"I need you to kill some people for me, Ben.
"And why would I do that?
"Because once I leave this island, you can have it all to yourself."
"All right."
"Good."

--cut---

"What did Widemore say to you?"
"He said Desmond was a failsafe. Jacob's last resort in case God forbid, I managed to kill all of his beloved candidates. One final way to make sure I never leave this place."
"Then why are you happy that he's still alive?"
"Because I'm gonna find Desmond and when I do, he's gonna help me do the one thing that I could never do myself. I'm gonna destroy the island."

I think Ben can see the problem with those two statements.

And of course getting of the island may not mean literally going on a European vacation.

[Young Justice]

And if the others are his people, the good guys, he should be able to find better leaders then Ben or Widmore.

Actually I think Ben and Widmore were more pupils of MiB than Jacob. Ben's dead mother appeared to him when he was a kid. And I assume it was "Jacob" who told him to kill all Dharma Initiative. A move that not fit Jacob's behavior. Besides, Jacob said it was not his place to tell people what to do, and it was all that Jacob did when Widmore and Ben were leading them.

Remember that Ilana said that Jacob was not in the Cabin from a long time? I think MiB hijacked the Cabin and started to pass as Jacob to control the Others to do what he wanted, resulting in the events of the Loophole so he could kill Jacob.

The ashes ring around the cabin was broken by the time Ilana got there. MiB could easily entered it.

[Temple Fugate]

It makes me very disgruntled to see how badly paced this season has been. The alternate reality plotline dragged its feet as if it had an entire new series to spend slowly establishing each character one by one, then bringing them together eventually. The deaths of 4 Survivors in just one episode, and the rapid pace at which all the alternate reality characters are coming together now, it tells me that the writers decided early on to just bet everything on the finale.

They knew three years in advance exactly how many episodes and seasons they had to tell the rest of the story. Three years to plan things out and make it all work and make it all make sense. Seeing what their plans have brought us to now, I can't do anything except shake my head.

Has it been entertaining? Yes. I'm still watching because it's still fun to watch. But it could have been so much better. When the season started, I looked at each episode and really enjoyed it, but also was in a state of suspended apprehension because I was just hoping to myself that the writers knew what they were doing. As we got closer to the end, my problems with the show grew. The flaws in the pacing became clearer. From the temple, to running around the Island, to characters switching allegiances and camps and going to Hydra Island and back and then back again. This season needed more stability. Every three episodes the situation seemed to change completely. At least there was one constant, which was "The man in black is evil," but other than that it seemed every character was just making things up as they went along, for an entire season. Plans were formulated, and then either botched or abandoned. Nothing has been "leading up to" this finale. They just bumbled around and have suddenly ended up here.

I've become one of the more cynical viewers here. I've avoided participating in some of these talkbacks because I don't want to just show up and complain about things. But here we are at the beginning of the end, and I just can't keep quiet. They had three years to get this right.

Tonight's finale had better be good. I really, really want it to be good. But my expectations are not high at all.

[Discloner]

My girlfriend pointed out last night an interesting question. If Kate's name was crossed off Jacob's list because she became a mother....why were the Kwons not crossed off? Does it apply only to mothers; and thus Jin would have been the candidate? Hmm...

[ShadowGUN]

My girlfriend pointed out last night an interesting question. If Kate's name was crossed off Jacob's list because she became a mother....why were the Kwons not crossed off? Does it apply only to mothers; and thus Jin would have been the candidate? Hmm...

Yeah I believe it only applies to mothers since Jacob has only know a mother's love and not a father so he might give them a free pass.

[The Penguin]

They knew three years in advance exactly how many episodes and seasons they had to tell the rest of the story. Three years to plan things out and make it all work and make it all make sense. Seeing what their plans have brought us to now, I can't do anything except shake my head.I believe that overall, you have a valid argument, but let's not forgot about the writers' strike cut down the number of episodes in season four by officially three episodes and then it got an extended finale because Lost told ABC they needed it. It got fourteen and originally was schedule to be sixteen.

[mr.happy]

Just caught up on the last few episodes before the finale, and what a massive disappointment it's been. It doesn't in any way feel like a show that's known for a few years how long they had left and could plan a suitable, well paced ending. It feels much more like they were told the end was coming with 6-8 episodes to go, and just started rushing like crazy to wrap it all up, as the whole thing has descended into complete nonsensical absurdity.

The only thing I've enjoyed a little bit in the recent batch of episodes is how Desmond has taken matters into his own hands. Hopefully the alternate timeline can provide some sort of satisfying resolution to it all, because I don't give two farts about what's going on on the island itself anymore. If anything, I'm actually rooting for Smokey to win, since I can't stand Jacob.


My girlfriend pointed out last night an interesting question. If Kate's name was crossed off Jacob's list because she became a mother....why were the Kwons not crossed off? Does it apply only to mothers; and thus Jin would have been the candidate? Hmm...Try not to think about it too much. The writers clearly didn't, so neither should you. As I've always said, the show is very good at setting up mysteries, but always drops the ball when it comes to answering any of the big questions, and this season has been no exception. It's been like a bad Stephen King novel.

[chdr]

I believe that overall, you have a valid argument, but let's not forgot about the writers' strike cut down the number of episodes in season four by officially three episodes and then it got an extended finale. It got fourteen and originally was schedule to be sixteen.Even then, it feels like they've had plenty of time this season to do things, and they squandered it on plot twists and events that seemed to serve only to stall until the finale. Don't get me wrong, I still find Lost entertaining, but it seems like most of the plot threads answered or referenced in this season were from the season premiere, resulting in a lot of questions we'll probably never know the answers to.

[Discloner]

Try not to think about it too much. The writers clearly didn't, so neither should you. As I've always said, the show is very good at setting up mysteries, but always drops the ball when it comes to answering any of the big questions, and this season has been no exception. It's been like a bad Stephen King novel.
Fitting considering the mutual love between the Lost guys and King. :p

[Bones Justice]

Okay, I guess I missed it but just what did they die for?

[mr.happy]

Okay, I guess I missed it but just what did they die for?Well, Jacob said he was going to explain it, but he really didn't.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Okay, I guess I missed it but just what did they die for?

Keeping the Light safe and growing as people.

[Bones Justice]

Keeping the Light safe and growing as people.

How can you grow as a person if you are dead?

[Jacob T. Paschal]

How can you grow as a person if you are dead?

Dying is the variable. People like Sayid or Eko grew before they died.

[Yojimbo]

Okay, I guess I missed it but just what did they die for?In service of a metaphysically incomprehensible land mass? Died achieving their ultimate purpose in life? Ratings? You say tomato, I say...

[Temple Fugate]

It's not so much that Sun, Jin and Sayid DIED for something as much as Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley have to LIVE for something. I suppose you could look at their deaths as a big motivation for one of the four to assume the guardianship role for the Island.

The problem, however, is how long it's actually taken Jacob to get around to being straight with everyone. From the things he said earlier in the season, it's obvious he was waiting until the right time, when the characters were in the right state of mind, but honestly I just can't reconcile the sheer amount of things that happened over the past 118 episodes--not just the whopping amount of deaths but all of the other stuff that happened--with Jacob's "patience" to get specifically these four Survivors to that campfire. This should have happened around season three, maybe four. If Jacob needed them on the Island, why didn't he use his influence to make them STAY at the end of that season?

There are a lot of answers for this. He needed to let them make choices, and figure out for themselves which of their choices were the right ones and which were the wrong ones. He may have had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen over the course of the series, and just waited for it to unfold to a point where he could step in.

And maybe he didn't see the need to act quickly because he knew everyone's soul would end up in the same place at the end, regardless of when or where they died.

Those answers DO answer the question, but not in a way I'm satisfied with. It's taken too much time and too many lives to get to this point, regardless of what his methods were supposed to be. Jacob seems to only care about the Island's safety. The Survivors' and humanity's safety is a second to accomplishing his goal of finding a successor. If a few candidates and a ton of non-candidates die along the way is not a problem for him. He just needed to get killed and then get at least a handful of people around that campfire and he'd be good to go. (And they didn't even have to be active candidates! Turns out he'll take anyone who wants the job.)

Jacob isn't a bad strategist. He used his smarts in bringing Jack around this season, and knows how to use psychology. But his chosen methods...maybe I'm just of a completely different mindset, but it seems needlessly more complicated than what was called for.