Depatie/Freleng 'toons for WB

[rodney]

As I've said before, I'm kinda new to the more "serious" side of collecting cartoons. After completing a nearly full run of all Laurel & Hardy material, I felt the need to move onto something else, so I've returned to my first love, WB cartoons. With that said, onto my dumb question:

I've only seen 1 or 2 Depatie/Freleng cartoons, and they weren't too bad, but I've heard really awful things about most of the series. Are they really that bad? I was thinking I'd like to try to find them. I'll need them eventually, but I was thinking of trying now.

So.....if anyone has a run of them they wouldn't mind copying, I'd be thrilled to trade or buy it from you. (Buying is probably better as I don't have much rare stuff.)

[J Lee]

Well, there are actually two kind of DePatie-Freleng Warner Bros. cartoons -- those actually done by D-FE and the 11 Road runner cartoons they subcontracted out to Format Films, which were directed by Rudy Larriva (Format later did three Daffy-Speedy cartoons after the D-FE contract ended).

The first handful of D-FE aren't that bad compaired to the final ones the old Warner Bros. studio did -- "Pancho's Hideway," "The Road to Andaly" and "Supressed Duck" are as good as anything else that was being put out by the studios in the mid-1960s, even if the animation is obviously lower quality. The problem was when they decided to combine Daffy and Speedy over and over again. The first, Freleng's "It's Nice to Have a Mouse Around the House" at least tries to come up with a reason for a duck to chase a mouse -- Daffy's an exterminator hired by Granny after Speedy finally drives Sylvester over the edge, and his anger slowly builds up during the cartoon. But later entries, as Leonard Maltin said, turned Daffy into a humerous villian out to get Speedy from the very start of the cartoon. Most of those, directed by Bob McKimson, have little going for them.

McKimson did do a better job than Larriva on the Road Runner series in 1965-66, which is covered in another recent thread a little lower down on the board.

[rodney]

I've seen a few of the Format Films RR cartoons, and those had absolutely nothing good going for them. I remember as a child making fun of 'Boulder Wham!'.....

[Matthew Hunter]

Well, I do have a comment on that... the DePatie-Freleng cartoons are NOT that bad, they are just different. Chuck Jones had left to work for MGM. Friz Freleng did a few cartoons, most of them with either Daffy Duck, Speedy Gonzales, or both, then focused his attention more on producing than directing, and did many of the "Pink Panther" films, though those were for United Artists, not WB. So they were left with Rudy Larriva, Robert McKimson, and Freleng, when he could find the time, I guess. Larriva worked out of his own Format Films studio and directed eleven Road Runner cartoons using his staff, a reusable Bill Lava music score, and several former WB animators. The original studio paired Daffy Duck and Speedy Gonzales for some 20 or more cartoons, (some of these worked very well, some didn't. ) Most of these were done by Robert McKimson. Bill Lava, the Warner cartoon musician since 1963, improved and made his scores a little more interesting. Walter Greene subbed in for Bill Lava on several music scores, and did them much better than his predecessor (for whatever reason, Lava returned later.)The animation budget was lowered because there was less demand for animated shorts.

Now, there is an era you should beware of, the WB/7 Arts era. After the DePatie/Freleng studio's success, Warner (at the time partially owned by a media company called 7 Arts) decided to re-open its own on-site cartoon studio, taking McKimson and Lovy to direct and Herb Klynn, then Bill Hendricks, to produce. This era lead to the continuation of the Daffy/Speedy series (unfortunately). Some of them were handled by Alex Lovy, who had little experience with the characters and completely (in my opinion) bastardized them. They kept ties with Rudy Larriva, and he and his group took a stab at Daffy and Speedy, resulting in some clever cartoons like "Quacker Tracker". Lovy came up with Cool Cat and Merlin the Mouse, and the popularity of their two self-titled cartoons warranted more, so Lovy and McKimson did them. McKimson came up with "Bunny and Claude", two gangster bunnies patterned after crooks Bonnie and Clyde (and the then-popular film about them.) Another, "Rapid Rabbit and Quick Brown Fox" was a Road Runner knockoff that was never made into a full series, due to the studio's closing in 1969.

-there.
-Matthew

[Matthew Hunter]

I've seen a few of the Format Films RR cartoons, and those had absolutely nothing good going for them. I remember as a child making fun of 'Boulder Wham!'.....

Ah, that one. You know, I've always thought that with a higher budget and better animation, this could have been a really good film...but it's not particularly good, is it? It is still one of my favorites, though, and the only post-1964 cartoon to use the slogan "That's All, Folks". Things I always wondered about this one:
1. Why is there a freakin' canyon in the middle of the road?

2.the Road Runner is on the opposite side of a canyon. Yet the Coyote tries to get over there himself. Instead of lassoing that rock, why doesn't he go for the bird?

3. How can the Road Runner run on air?

-Matthew

[Jack]

They aren't that bad, well, some are pretty bad, but it mostly depends.

The Road Runner shorts: Cheaper, and broke away from Jones' loose structure of "rules," but the catchy music and sometimes inventive gags make them enjoyable.

The new character cartoons (like with Cool Cat, Merlin, etc.) are sort of hit and miss, I don't get quite the same thrill out of Chimp and Zee that I used to, but Merlin and Second Banana was pretty good.

The Daffy-Speedy cartoons: Haven't seen one in years, so I won't darn them too much. I remember the cheater cartoons being pretty good since they reused old footage from original WB cartoons, but none of them ever seemed remotely as good as the 1930-1964 Daffy cartoons. I wouldn't mind seeing some of these again.


Jack :D

[rodney]

Speaking of WB/7arts cartoons.....here's a question. The first film under the new studio was Speedy Ghost To Town, released on July 29th 1967. However, the first McKimson cartoon released under this new arrangement wasn't until Nov 9th 1968 (Bunny and Claude). So, was Bob McKimson employed by the WB/7arts studio? If so, or if not, what was he doing during this time?

[Pilmedium]

It seems like Alex Lovy is the person to blame for those two annoying characters. The end of DePatie-Freleng's WB cartoons in 1967 should have been the end of Looney Tunes/Merrie Melodies. The Daffy/Speedy cartoons didn't get any worse, but the other ones did.

[rodney]

Why didn't DePatie/Freleng or WB/7arts do any Bugs Bunny cartoons? Sure they may not have been that good, but it would be interesting to see the handling of that character.

It's almost like they forgot all about Bugs.

[J Lee]

The first film under the new studio was Speedy Ghost To Town, released on July 29th 1967. However, the first McKimson cartoon released under this new arrangement wasn't until Nov 9th 1968 (Bunny and Claude). So, was Bob McKimson employed by the WB/7arts studio? If so, or if not, what was he doing during this time?

Bob McKimson continued to work for D-FE after their Warners contract expired, and then went over to the "new" Warner Bros. studio to replace Alex Lovy about a year later.

[Allen's Nickname.]

They did three. One in '64 and 2 in the 90's

[Pilmedium]

Originally posted by Spaz13_88
They did three. One in '64 and 2 in the 90's

With no quote, it's hard to understand, but are you referring to Bugs Bunny cartoons?

If so, all of the 1964 Bugs cartoons were made by the "original" studio, including "False Hare".

The 1990s? As far as I know, the DePatie-Freleng and 7 Arts studios that made cartoons in the 1960s didn't even exist as their own then.

[Matthew Hunter]

I remember hearing this discussed before...best guess anyone could come to is that they knew their budget couldn't handle a good Bugs cartoon, so they left him out of it. There was some Bugs Bunny animation from the day, for the "Bugs Bunny/Road Runner TV Hour" opening and closing titles.
-Matthew

[Steve Carras]

Originally posted by rodney
Why didn't DePatie/Freleng or WB/7arts do any Bugs Bunny cartoons? Sure they may not have been that good, but it would be interesting to see the handling of that character.

It's almost like they forgot all about Bugs.

The reason is that Bugs was having enough exposure on TV, what with the (then uncensored) Sat AM., and afterschooll/morning syndication, and he was their biggest star so it was like, there was a ABC and then CBS contract as well as with the indies not to do anymore. It WOULD be interesting to hear Joe Siracusa (Jay Ward sound editor) and Hanna Barbera sound FX underneath Bugs, though.And late 60s Bill Lava music ;)

ANd re the one shot post-1964's--I voted Rabbit Stew and Rabbits Too (reminds me of a Linus the Lionherarted meets Roadrunner.)

Motormouth Maybelle:"..Scary stuff".
Penny Pingleton: "I see you've met my mother!
From "Hairspray".

[Matthew Hunter]

I think I know that one. Daffy and Speedy were paired, as I understand it, because they were the most popular among the target audience, the southwestern U.S., where, apparently, more people were going to movies and more theaters buying cartoons. So what do they do? they pair the most-requested characters so you get two for the price of one in a cartoon. I'm not sure if the original decision to do it was a Warner Bros. order (I could be wrong) but I think Friz Freleng's "It's Nice to Have a Mouse Around the House" was well-recieved, and Warner wanted them to continue the series.
.-Matthew

[Greg Method]

I believe Mr. Beck once explained it as Warner Bros. knew that whatever theatrical shorts were to be produced would have a longer life (and profitability) on television. And since there weren't enough WB-owned Daffy cartoons or enough Speedy cartoons available to go around, Warner Bros'. solution was to combine the two and increase the television libraries for the two characters.

That rationale makes sense when you remember that the new Larriva Road Runner shorts would pop up on CBS only weeks after premiering in theaters. These were becoming more or less made-for-TV cartoons that just happened to be played theatrically first.

[Pilmedium]

Originally posted by Greg Method
And since there weren't enough WB-owned Daffy cartoons

Does that mean another company owned more Daffy cartoons, such as AAP or someone else?

[rodney]

There were far less usable Daffy cartoons for use by WB by this point in time. The B&W cartoons hadn't been redrawn yet, and the focus was more on other characters post '48. Assuming that there were 2 seperate syndication packages (which I think was the case) this makes sense, assuming I'm right.

[Jack]

WB had about 53 Daffy Duck and 15 Speedy cartoons in its library before they decided to make the Daffy/Speedy cartoons, the repurchase of the B&W Looney Tunes would add another 14 or so Daffys. This left about 31 in the pre 1948 a.a.p. package.

The post 1948 cartoons were broken up into 3 packages or so. Each package wouldn't have gotten a lot of Daffy cartoons, and only a tiny portion of Speedy cartoons.

The Daffy-Speedy cartoons come to about 30 films, their addition pretty much makes up for the loss of the pre 1948 color Daffy cartoons.



Jack :D

[Dave Mackey]

Originally posted by Greg Method
That rationale makes sense when you remember that the new Larriva Road Runner shorts would pop up on CBS only weeks after premiering in theaters. These were becoming more or less made-for-TV cartoons that just happened to be played theatrically first.

Although DePatie-Freleng made them for television, the final run of TV "Pink Panther" cartoons (for the 1978-1979 TV season) did get a token theatrical release three years after the fact. Maybe one theatre in LA, but I can't imagine it being any more widespread than that at a time when animation on the big screen was pretty much dead.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Dave Mackey


Although DePatie-Freleng made them for television, the final run of TV "Pink Panther" cartoons (for the 1978-1979 TV season) did get a token theatrical release three years after the fact. Maybe one theatre in LA, but I can't imagine it being any more widespread than that at a time when animation on the big screen was pretty much dead.

The UA theater chain (along with some drive-ins) seemed to be the sole user of DePatie-Freleng cartoons (or any cartoons) by the late-late Seventies and early Eighties. I remember seeing a DF cartoon (don't know which one) with the James Bond feature "Moonraker", and with other films in UA theaters in the above mentioned time-frame.

[angilbas]

Originally posted by Greg Method
That rationale makes sense when you remember that the new Larriva Road Runner shorts would pop up on CBS only weeks after premiering in theaters. These were becoming more or less made-for-TV cartoons that just happened to be played theatrically first.

"Sugar and Spies" may have had the shortest interval between theatrical circulation and Saturday morning TV time. This cartoon was released in November 1966, eight months after the last Larriva RR ... and shown on TV during the 1966-8 period, according to Kevin McCorry's list at http://www.toonzone.net/looney/tv/rrshow/rrshow2.html . I don't know when "Sugar and Spies" first appeared on the tube, but it could have been as early as November 12, 1966 (assuming that RR Show eps were shown in the same order in 1966 as they were in 1971; see http://www.toonzone.net/looney/tv/rrshow/rrshow3.html ).

-Tony

[rodney]

Thanks to a bad cold keeping me home from work and a big dose of mind numbing allergy medication, I've managed to watch most of the Depatie/Freleng cartoons today.

Most of them aren't that bad. They reminded me of good TV animation. Most of the gags fit the characters. I'm not itching to sit through them again, but I'm glad I did. If nothing else, most of them I had never seen before.

The only ones that really irked me were the ones that blantantly reused animation from earlier cartoons without giving credit to the original director. But that was nothing new by this time.

[Pilmedium]

Originally posted by rodney
The only ones that really irked me were the ones that blantantly reused animation from earlier cartoons without giving credit to the original director.

If the original director was not working there, he was considered dead. If they were not on a high budget, they probably reused animation to save money.