The Dark Ages of Marvel Animation are over.

[RONDC20]

Lets face it folks the 90's was a dark age for Marvel animation on TV. Now is the time for Marvel Animation to shine.

It is my humble opinion that Wolverine and The X-Men is way better than the 90's show. I just cant get past the terrible character design, lousy animation and often cheesy dialog. It hurts my eyes seeing it now.

I feel the same way about Spider-Man. Spectacular Spider-Man is LOADS Better than the 90's version IMO.

I would say it really all started with X-Men Evolution. I think that paved the way for quality Marvel Animation on TV.

Not all the recent outings from Marvel animation wise have been great. ( Spider-Man The MTV series, Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes, Iron Man Armored Adventures) But Wolverine and The X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are both phenomenal IMO. Way better than their 90's counterparts, but that's just what I think.

Not to mention The New Avengers animated series coming next year. Have you guys see the promo trailer? It looks soooo AWESOME!!! This could be Marvel's answer to Justice League/JLU

Were getting better quality animation, better writing and just plain better talent.

[Schuyler]

I'll have to disagree with you, I find the 90s marvel stuff to be better. The animation and character designs were top notch. Also all the storyline pretty much followed the comics, and it was awesome.

Don't get me wrong Wolverine and The X-Men is a solid show, which I wanted to hate just cause of Wolverine being to dam popular but couldn't. But other then that I don't really care for the other shows. At least Marvel is putting out pretty good movies. I just don't know what your talking about Marvel as never been in the Dark Ages, they always have put something out that kids liked.

But in the last two decades DC as always put out a show to top Marvel every time, first with Batman: The Animated Series, then Justice League. Lets see what happens this decade, but I don't have that much faith, in either company.

[Barbossa]

I agree with the OP ,we are currently in the a golden age of marvel animation starting from x men evo in 2000.I am enjoying every single marvel animation,yes even Superhero Squad.

There is something for everyone young and old and best of all in different animation styles from the cg iron man to the motion comic animation of Black panther. The 90s toons all looked the same that was pretty lazy of them.

The current toons apart from being better than the 90s toons are already more successful most of the 90s toon did't even get pass 26 episodes ,but most of the current marvel toons already have 52 episodes confirmed so marvel has learnt thier lessons.

[carnage89]

The 90s Marvel animation was good, but not great. From what I know the FF, Hulk and Iron Man shows have had one good and one bad season. 90s Spidey had 3 pretty good seasons, but the 4th blew. And that Avengers cartoon... lets not go there.

But overall, I enjoy 90s Marvel shows.

[Schuyler]

I agree with the OP ,we are currently in the a golden age of marvel animation starting from x men evo in 2000.I am enjoying every single marvel animation,yes even Superhero Squad.

There is something for everyone young and old and best of all in different animation styles from the cg iron man to the motion comic animation of Black panther. The 90s toons all looked the same that was pretty lazy of them.

The current toons apart from being better than the 90s toons are already more successful most of the 90s toon did't even get pass 26 episodes ,but most of the current marvel toons already have 52 episodes confirmed so marvel has learnt thier lessons.

Comic Heros are the hot cool in thing now with all the live action movies, its easy for these shows to pick up large seasons. Also there is only 3 main channels that show cartoons, everything is packed now. They have a outlet to show cartoons and get a large following. While the 90s it was pretty slim pickings for a T.V slot.

[capfan1]

Lets face it folks the 90's was a dark age for Marvel animation on TV. Now is the time for Marvel Animation to shine.

It is my humble opinion that Wolverine and The X-Men is way better than the 90's show. I just cant get past the terrible character design, lousy animation and often cheesy dialog. It hurts my eyes seeing it now.

I feel the same way about Spider-Man. Spectacular Spider-Man is LOADS Better than the 90's version IMO.

I would say it really all started with X-Men Evolution. I think that paved the way for quality Marvel Animation on TV.

Not all the recent outings from Marvel animation wise have been great. ( Spider-Man The MTV series, Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes, Iron Man Armored Adventures) But Wolverine and The X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are both phenomenal IMO. Way better than their 90's counterparts, but that's just what I think.

Not to mention The New Avengers animated series coming next year. Have you guys see the promo trailer? It looks soooo AWESOME!!! This could be Marvel's answer to Justice League/JLU

Were getting better quality animation, better writing and just plain better talent.
Haha you really gave me quite a laugh there.How can you bash the 90's marvel shows which wer'e so much better than todays marvel shows.Did you even watch them or are you qouting some 90's haters that post here?I don't know how anyone that's a fan of marvel and its shows can even say such rude and untrue things.iron man armored adventures is so lame it spits in the true iron man origins face!fantastic four makes the torch a sissy boy and nothing like the character in the comics or movies.I didn't care much for any iron man series but this new one is awful.Now to the x-men series,the 90's paved the way by getting the x-men known and it was a great series just lacked any real action as far as great fights.The x-men evolution had a good 3rd and 4th season but also lacked any real action,and has to be the worst of the x-men series,but not that bad.the new wolverine and the x-men should be renamed but is really the only good thing marvel animated series has out now.It could be better than the 90's X-men but so far it's just a close 2nd.Now for spidey,how can a show that has more than double the shows be worse?SSM has a mere 26 shows compared to 65 for 90's siderman series,theres more action in the new spidey show but overall 90's spiderman had more to it and less cartoony animation.I can already see the SSM fans posting saying this and that about comparison and how SSM is much better but in the end I win because spiderman the animated series has 39 more episodes and thats that.As far as the future of marvel it looks promising,hey my fav character captain america is going to be a part of a promising series and may get his own animated series when his movie comes out.The earths mightiest heroes looks like it could be the cornerstone for all marvel animation series,and I hope it is cause my fav characters are in the show.Hopefully direct to DVDs are also as good or better than hulk vs.,maybe a civil war movie.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

Haha you really gave me quite a laugh there.How can you bash the 90's marvel shows which wer'e so much better than todays marvel shows.Did you even watch them or are you qouting some 90's haters that post here?I don't know how anyone that's a fan of marvel and its shows can even say such rude and untrue things.iron man armored adventures is so lame it spits in the true iron man origins face!fantastic four makes the torch a sissy boy and nothing like the character in the comics or movies.I didn't care much for any iron man series but this new one is awful.Now to the x-men series,the 90's paved the way by getting the x-men known and it was a great series just lacked any real action as far as great fights.The x-men evolution had a good 3rd and 4th season but also lacked any real action,and has to be the worst of the x-men series,but not that bad.the new wolverine and the x-men should be renamed but is really the only good thing marvel animated series has out now.It could be better than the 90's X-men but so far it's just a close 2nd.Now for spidey,how can a show that has more than double the shows be worse?SSM has a mere 26 shows compared to 65 for 90's siderman series,theres more action in the new spidey show but overall 90's spiderman had more to it and less cartoony animation.I can already see the SSM fans posting saying this and that about comparison and how SSM is much better but in the end I win because spiderman the animated series has 39 more episodes and thats that.As far as the future of marvel it looks promising,hey my fav character captain america is going to be a part of a promising series and may get his own animated series when his movie comes out.The earths mightiest heroes looks like it could be the cornerstone for all marvel animation series,and I hope it is cause my fav characters are in the show.Hopefully direct to DVDs are also as good or better than hulk vs.,maybe a civil war movie.

The 90's Iron Man was pretty bad, especially in its first season. The villains were weak and goofy (the Mandarin...green? MODOK as a sidekick? Villain crushes?) and the Force Works heroes didn't really belong to an Iron Man show and did not add anything of value. Not to mention Tony himself was bland and the plots were boring. The only good thing I remember from that show was the awesome theme from the second season.

While Iron Man: Armored Adventures is far from perfect, at least it works to have the audience interested in the characters through development, consistency, and story arcs. The villains were also revamped, and for the better.

The length of a show has nothing to do with its quality. The only reason we have not seen more episodes of out Spectacular Spider-Man is due to legal reasons between Sony and Marvel. If Kids WB hadn't died, we would all be anticipating the fourth season by now.

I do agree that the future looks bright for Marvel animation. Plenty of promising works coming in the near future.

[Zorak Masaki]

Actually, i think 90s Marvel excelled at using lesser-known characters. I havent seen the 2nd season of Spec. Spider Man yet or any of Wolverine and the X-Men, but X-Men:TAS had characters like the starjammers and alpha flight, and 90s Spider-Man had Morbius and all the 40s heroes, among other great uses of second-tier characters (and justice league (heck, the DCAU as a whole) and brave and the bold perfected the use of lesser-used characters). The only current marvel show that i know of that uses those type of characters is Super Hero Squad while from what ive heard, the other shows just use the established villains and supporting casts. Wheres the likes of Tarantula on Spider-man for example? I like Spectacular Spider-Man and i do think its superior to the 90s show, but they need to dip into their characters more.

[zembrianator]

90s marvel animation was defined by Spider-man and X-Men TAS, both shows were amazing.

[Wonderwall]

I'll have to disagree with you, I find the 90s marvel stuff to be better. The animation and character designs were top notch. Also all the storyline pretty much followed the comics, and it was awesome.

The animation and character designs weren't top notch, they were actually barely passable due to the mediocre animation from a lot of the series. I mean there's a good reason when i went to learn animation those shows were not used for reference while shows like DCAU and Samurai Jack were. I think it was just a little bit of 80s character design theory that was unfortunately left over.

I don't think a comic show has to follow comic storylines panel by panel, that just seems like a waste of time and creativity. Now being able to stay in line with the spirit of the comics that's important and an adaptation of a famous story here and there is always nice.

[W.C.Reaf]

Haha you really gave me quite a laugh there.How can you bash the 90's marvel shows which wer'e so much better than todays marvel shows.

He can “bash” then for the same reason you can “bash” the current shows.

That would be because he has a different opinion than you. Opinions are not facts and therefore cannot be wrong.

[RONDC20]

You know capfan1 (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/member.php?u=31003) for some one who dissagrees with me you sure agreed with a lot of the same points I made.

Yes I did watch all the 90's Marvel shows back when I was a kid and even back then I could see the lousy quality of their shows.I try and watch them now and I cringe. Lousy design and animation and the writing was cheesy and groan worthy.

In the 90's Spider-Man he had way too much inner monologue to the point where it got really annoying.

The designs for the 90's X-Men were way too detailed and made for some very stiff and blocky animation and again I felt it had cheesy dialog.

DC was putting out much better stuff. Batman The Animated series was a thousand times better than anything Marvel had out at the moment and they kept on giving us quality stuff with Superman The Animated series, Justice League/ JLU, Hell even Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes were great.

No one is perfect though. I hate "The Batman". Capfan if you read my post correctly you would see that I agree with you about Iron Man: Armored Adventures and Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes.

As far as X-Men and Spider-Man goes? Im sorry but the current versions are loads better.

[W.C.Reaf]

Actually, i think 90s Marvel excelled at using lesser-known characters. I havent seen the 2nd season of Spec. Spider Man yet or any of Wolverine and the X-Men, but X-Men:TAS had characters like the starjammers and alpha flight, and 90s Spider-Man had Morbius and all the 40s heroes, among other great uses of second-tier characters (and justice league and brave and the bold perfected those lesser-used characters).

SSM is using extremely obscure characters, which comes with the territory when one of your series goals is "every named character in this show must be from the comics" I'd imagine. They threw in Coronal Jupiter for an episode, not to mention Sally Avirl and Fredrick Foswell are members of the supporting cast.

Coronal Jupiter is probably the most obscure villain they've used so far but they’ve done a lot more obscure characters than the 90s show.

Wolverine does do a lot of mutant cameos from both old and new characters. Have a look at all the background mutants in the Genosha scenes and you'll see a lot of obscure people wandering about.

You've got to remember that 90s X-men and Spidey have had more episodes than the current shows so far so they're bound to have used more characters.

[suss2it]

Their recent DTV movies have also been pretty good.

[thundacatblue]

I can already see the SSM fans posting saying this and that about comparison and how SSM is much better but in the end I win because spiderman the animated series has 39 more episodes and thats that.

Soap operas have hundreds more episodes than SM:TAS and I highly doubt you would tout their brilliance. Quantity ≠ quality. The fact that SM:TAS had 39 more punch-free episodes doesn't make it a better show.

[zembrianator]

I think the problem with this thread is that you can hardly call 90s marvel animation the dark ages when it had spider-man and x-men TAS.

They were some of the most popular cartoons of their time.

Wolverine and the X-Men, and spectacular spider-man are good shows but i still prefer the 90s stuff.

This thread demands a poll!

90s xmen vs current xmen
90s spidey vs current spidey

[GregX]

Heh, looks like it's time to re-post my old blog entry on this subject, because I think it covers just about everything.


Let me preface this. I grew up reading "Spider-Man" comic books. I was born in 1981, and I started on Spidey in 1983... I learned to read with Spidey comics. This character has been a part of my life for that long. Mostly, they were Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita reprints, but I was also reading current comics off the stand at the time.

So, I was already a life long Spider-Man fan well before the 90s cartoon came out. It was a cartoon that I remember being hyped about. Unfortunately, it was a very underwhelming disappointment. I know Spider-Man, and for me, that was not Spider-Man.

I think what it comes down to is that it was aping the 90's comics of the time to a tee. I mean, look at what they did with Vulture!

I like Mary Jane a lot as a character, but I hated her in that show. I didn't like her design. I didn't like her voice. I didn't like the way they wrote her. And I didn't like that they essentially made her the Lois Lane of the show. Yes, Mary Jane is THE ONE. I am more than cool with that. What I am not cool is that she was THE ONE, THE ONLY, THE ALWAYS. Felicia Hardy was around, but honestly, never even seriously interested in Pete.

Whereas "Spectacular" included Gwen Stacy, Liz Allan, Betty Brant, and Black Cat along with Mary Jane Watson. Hell, Peter and MJ aren't a couple yet, and while they eventually will be, it should come later. It shouldn't be like the 90's and the movies.

But, more than that, there was stuff in that show that outright angered me.

It's a huge stretch that they had Peter Parker accept the Kingpin financing his wedding. How many people gave their kneecaps for his wedding? That's certainly not very responsible, and, in my eyes, almost as bad as making a deal with Mephisto.

Actually, it's worse. At least with Mephisto, he saved his Aunt's life. With Kingpin, he just got free cake.

That, and Norman Osborn was a wuss in the series, living in fear of Fisk. Um... no. Norman Osborn was not a good man gone bad. Norman Osborn was a bad man gone nuts. "The Spectacular Spider-Man" got him right. Semper... didn't.

Take both Normans' reactions to the Vulture. Semper's Norman runs away screaming, crying, and begging for his life. Weisman's Norman is being held by the Vulture hundreds of feet above the streets, and what does Norman say to him? "I called you a buzzard. You can't even get the name right." The difference is as clear as night and day.

And Doctor Octopus being one of Kingpin's flunkies. No, just no. I mean, if they have a shared interest, sure, he would work WITH Fisk. But Doc Ock is a megalomaniac. He wouldn't cow-tow to Fisk.

"Spectacular" was able to have Tombstone as the Big Man without EVERYONE working for him. Some started out that way but then went off on their own. That and Tombstone was treated like a ganglord and not 1980's Shredder. I really hated Kingpin's Technodrome disguised as the Chrysler Building lair (how come no one ever noticed the giant robots flying in and out?) and he's a mobster, why would he want to rule the world?

Not to mention that the 90's series treatment of old people was downright offensive. Aunt May was a moron. Aunt Anna was an evil shrew for no reason. Silvermane was just... they joked about adult diapers for crying out loud (and did we really need that stupid, talking baby?). Vulture... must I go on?

And then of course, there was Walter Hardy being around in WW2... and him not realizing that Project Rebirth WASN'T a Nazi operation until AFTER HE'D REPORTED BACK TO HIS OBVIOUSLY GERMAN... EMPLOYER... PEOPLE... GUYS! Why did the Nazis hire a ten year old American boy to spy on Project Rebirth again?

The 90's series just had animation that was painful to look at, and the dialogue was so melodramatic and over the top. And the voice acting, my god, the voice acting. I already mentioned the casting abortion that was Sara Ballantine as Mary Jane Watson. But almost everyone else was painful. I HATED Neil Ross as the Green Goblin. HATED the performance. He sounded like he inhaled helium before he went on.

Now, they did have some great talent on that show, but the voice directing was so incompetent that they were ultimately wasted. Tony Pastor was the voice director, and if you check out his IMDB resume, it's both very thin and very unimpressive.

The pacing is absolutely wretched. There's one episode where MJ gets engaged to Harry and breaks it off, all in the same episode. Most of this subplot is conveyed via loooong internal monologues.

There's never a moment of silence, scenes last a single minute in each setting and that minute is crammed with both expository dialogue and the internal narration piecing things together for the audience. There's nothing wrong with making the audience work a little too.

Anna Watson is another thing I didn't like about TAS. Did she ever have any moments where she wasn't being a miserable shrew? Any? She was so one dimensional. Even SSM's Sally Avril had her human moments. Anna Watson... nope.

Now, as for why I like "Spectacular"? Well, let's say this. I don't grade on a curve. But, watching this, I feel like I am seeing the spirit of those Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita stories being brought to life. While also cherry picking the great stuff that came later on.

The dialogue is natural and flows, and is genuinely funny when it wants to be. The characterizations are spot on, and the characters are three dimensional. I care just as much about Peter and his world out of the costume as I do when he's in the costume.

The animation is fluid and gorgeous. No stock footage at all.

The stories are a rich tapestry that continues to flow very organically. And, it's well thought out. Something in episode one will resonate in episode twenty-six. It just flows as naturally as a river.

The voice acting is also just top notch. No one has been miscast. Jamie Thomason is a genius.

It's just a terrific show. Before it came out, people were comparing it to "The Batman" and now, two seasons later, it's being compared to "Batman the Animated Series." I think there's a reason for that.

Sorry, but I figured it was on topic. ;)

[Gokou Ruri]

Well, yeah, I would definitely say Marvel's '00 toons are better than the 90s ones. They have a lot more effort put into them and, maybe it's just a problem with the 90s in general, but also seem to have better consistency in terms of pacing, artwork, and overall quality.

Though I'm not a fan of Superhero Squad or Spectacular Spider-Man too much (they're a bit too juvenile for me, personally), I'll still say they're at least better crafted than their 90s counterparts. My main concern is DC fans must feel like they're getting the shaft. Shows like Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armored Adventures take the franchises in bold new directions, with series-spanning storylines that, up until now, have been unheard of for superhero animation. They're only getting Brave and the Bold (another show I'm not a fan of for similar reasons). I'd personally love to see a Batman show in the same vein as WATX or IM:AA, it could definitely lend itself to that type of serial format. I do think Marvel finally found their calling, for the most part. Hopefully Thor and Avengers follow the same way and don't disappoint. I'm definitely looking forward to Thor.

[suss2it]

Well, yeah, I would definitely say Marvel's '00 toons are better than the 90s ones. They have a lot more effort put into them and, maybe it's just a problem with the 90s in general, but also seem to have better consistency in terms of pacing, artwork, and overall quality.

Though I'm not a fan of Superhero Squad or Spectacular Spider-Man too much (they're a bit too juvenile for me, personally), I'll still say they're at least better crafted than their 90s counterparts. My main concern is DC fans must feel like they're getting the shaft. Shows like Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armored Adventures take the franchises in bold new directions, with series-spanning storylines that, up until now, have been unheard of for superhero animation. They're only getting Brave and the Bold (another show I'm not a fan of for similar reasons). I'd personally love to see a Batman show in the same vein as WATX or IM:AA, it could definitely lend itself to that type of serial format. I do think Marvel finally found their calling, for the most part. Hopefully Thor and Avengers follow the same way and don't disappoint. I'm definitely looking forward to Thor.I don't really see how Spectacular Spider-Man is a juvenile show? Definitely not on the same level as Superhero Squad.

[Wonderwall]

My main concern is DC fans must feel like they're getting the shaft. Shows like Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armored Adventures take the franchises in bold new directions, with series-spanning storylines that, up until now, have been unheard of for superhero animation. They're only getting Brave and the Bold (another show I'm not a fan of for similar reasons). I'd personally love to see a Batman show in the same vein as WATX or IM:AA, it could definitely lend itself to that type of serial format. I do think Marvel finally found their calling, for the most part. Hopefully Thor and Avengers follow the same way and don't disappoint. I'm definitely looking forward to Thor.

I'm a DC fan too but I don't feel that way at all seeing as I enjoy Brave and the Bold more than those two. WatXM has far too many problems, I like the show but for me it's short comings are very obvious and part of the reason is the way the storyline is handled at times. IM: AA is better than it has any right to be but it's still not a direction I thought was totally necessary. That and the look of the show lacks a lot for me.

Edit:
Also forgot to mention the DC DTVs as well, So I think if you're a fan of Marvel or DC or both you can't really go wrong right now.

[CaptainCanada]

Loved the 90s Spider-Man and X-Men; the other shows I didn't see as a kid. Old-style animation, sure, but they're quality nonetheless.

[Antiyonder]

Mod Reminder: Lets keep our disagreements on the subject respectful and civil. If you want to voice your dislike towards Marvel's 90s or 2000s programming do so without name calling or any other rude remarks. And finally, keep your opinion on the show and not the fans.


Though I'm not a fan of Superhero Squad or Spectacular Spider-Man too much (they're a bit too juvenile for me, personally), I'll still say they're at least better crafted than their 90s counterparts. My main concern is DC fans must feel like they're getting the shaft. Shows like Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armored Adventures take the franchises in bold new directions, with series-spanning storylines that, up until now, have been unheard of for superhero animation. They're only getting Brave and the Bold (another show I'm not a fan of for similar reasons). I'd personally love to see a Batman show in the same vein as WATX or IM:AA, it could definitely lend itself to that type of serial format. I do think Marvel finally found their calling, for the most part. Hopefully Thor and Avengers follow the same way and don't disappoint. I'm definitely looking forward to Thor.

The problem isn't that they want a line of serial shows from DC, but for some DC Comics programming outside of the main two. Regardless whether the 90s or the 2000s are better/worse, Marvel shows a willingness to go outside Spider-Man and The X-Men.

[Barbossa]

Another reason I love the current toons is that they are vey ambitious and Marvel has taken a lot of risks with their shows which for most of them has paid off.
From wolverine leading the xmen , a teenage Iron man ,superhero squad, and teenage x men.These had fail written all over them but they are all great shows and they all have an audience.

The 90s toons played it safe most of the time apart from making she hulk a main character in the Hulk show season 2 which probably killed the show and the whole 90s Avengers show in way was a risk and we all know how that turned out, same for Spiderman unlimited.

Oh and the Iron man and Wolverine anime look great another good idea hopefully it pays off

[JeffBreakdown]

It is my humble opinion that Wolverine and The X-Men is way better than the 90's show. I just cant get past the terrible character design, lousy animation and often cheesy dialog. It hurts my eyes seeing it now.

How can you HATE the character design of the 90s X-Men show? they were basically ripped off of the pages!!!!!! i love them and i got used to the streamlined wolverine and the x-men designs pretty quickly, but i'd say as far as design goes 90's x-men DESTROYS x-men evo designs.

[Wonderwall]

Well it depends really if you like the 90s X men designs as static drawings or as a character design for a cartoon. I like Jim Lee's drawings as still pictures in a comic. But that style is really bad when it has to be translated over to animation. One is it's nowhere near as good as Jim's and second it made the animation suffer so it failed as character design for a show.

[Schuyler]

If the 90s cartoons had the budget and technology, things would be different. Thats why I don't get people picking on them, saying how crappy they are to today's shows.

[Wonderwall]

They might look better but the designs still don't lend themselves well to animation. No TV cartoons have feature film budgets and there were shows that were on the same time as X Men and Spider Man that had better animation but still had the same tech. Would they be different, sure but they wouldn't look the best they could because the designs just don't work.

Edit:

Forgot about the Fleisher Superman which was made in the 40s yet looked and animated better, so I don't buy the money and tech excuse.

[macattack]

The 90's weren't a dark age for Marvel animation but neither was the last decade either. If anything I'd consider the 80's to be the dark ages of Marvel animation, but that's just me.

The 90's in general took a lot more risks in storytelling and (in some cases) violence than the 80's cartoons that preceded. The first season of the Incredible Hulk has a great 13-episode storyline for the first season with many subplots that come together in the end and was perhaps the most violent. Spider-Man accomplished incredible things despite bad animation and plentiful censorship and was the most popular Marvel toon of them all. X-Men is also fondly remembered despite its flaws as well. Iron Man and Fantastic Four suffered from horrendous first seasons and had improved second seasons. Everything is a major step up from the 80's.

That being said the 90's toons frequently had animation problems. Spider-Man looked really cheap after the first season, and X-Men had problems from day one. Hulk got off easier for the first season, but animation quality absolutely collapsed in the second season. The character designs are highly detailed which was part of the problem, but another is that there just wasn't enough money.

The last decade's toons are generally better. X-Men: Evolution stumbled out of the gate but got good eventually. Spectacular Spider-Man is a classic. Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes rubs me the wrong way in general but the second half is a lot better than the first. None of those three have had any off-model moments or choppy animation, which means Marvel (or Sony in Spectacular's case) budgeted right. And Super Hero Squad has its moments but has animation problems and occasionally sloppy and uninspired writing.

[W.C.Reaf]

Look at other 90s shows like Batman TAS, Gargoyles, or even SWAT Kats, they look fine today (mostly) and a lot better animated than X-Men TAS even with the same level of technology. It's the simpler designs that allow them to be better animated, not money or tech.

There’s only so much that can be blamed on the time they were made in. I also don’t really like the Lee designs from the 90s, but that’s just my opinion.

[AlgeaX]

If the 90s cartoons had the budget and technology, things would be different. That's why I don't get people picking on them, saying how crappy they are to today's shows.

I disagree that it's an issue of technology. Just look at the old Fleischer Superman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb8iYqIVBzQ)* cartoons, the animation on them puts the 90s Spidey and X toons to shame, and they were made in the forties!

Besides, just compare the 90s Marvel toons to their own contemporaries like Gargoyles or B:TAS.

*Public Domain

[Gokou Ruri]

I don't really see how Spectacular Spider-Man is a juvenile show? Definitely not on the same level as Superhero Squad. Oh, it's no where near as bad as SHS. It just doesn't seem to take itself as seriously as other current Marvel shows do is all (besides SHS, I mean). Maybe it's their take on the villains, or some of the subject matter (like the typical high school problems you'd find in every other teenage hero show that seemed to over-saturate this decade)


The problem isn't that they want a line of serial shows from DC, but for some DC Comics programming outside of the main two. Regardless whether the 90s or the 2000s are better/worse, Marvel shows a willingness to go outside Spider-Man and The X-Men. Also a fair point. Especially since we just got done with The Batman. Yet another Batman cartoon probably felt a bit repetitive for some people. Marvel's shown a lot of faith and creativity when it's come to these cartoons this decade and shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon. They can take risks and it tends to pay off for them. I think the biggest risk DC's took in the past few decades was Batman Beyond, but that was still, well, Batman.

[Schuyler]

I disagree that it's an issue of technology. Just look at the old Fleischer Superman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb8iYqIVBzQ)* cartoons, the animation on them puts the 90s Spidey and X toons to shame, and they were made in the forties!

Besides, just compare the 90s Marvel toons to their own contemporaries like Gargoyles or B:TAS.

*Public Domain

I knew someone was going to bring up Batman:TAS, but people forget it was on the heels of the Batman movies coming out, so they put the time and money into it. Also about Superman of course it was better back then it was new and people put a lot of heart into it. Then with time people got lazy and budgets got lower and didn't help with some of the t.v slots Iron Man, Hulk, F4 all aired on a Sunday.

But when your a kid you don't think about animation, its the fun factor of the show your watching. Its all about the timing, all these super hero shows are blowing up cause of the movies simple fact. I'm just ranting lets get back to the topic, the 90s was the beginning of the start of the marvel boom, and it exploded in 00s with X-men the movie.

[Azeke]

Spectacular Spider-man was the only show that made me care about the animated Marvel. Everything else were and are sub-par in my opinion.

Seeing how Sony/Disney/Marvel treats it is not exactly my vision of coming out of crisis. It's more like a shining gem inside a long consecutive row of mediocre shows, and it's like they have absolutely no idea what to do with it.

[RONDC20]

WOW!!! I was not expecting this, But I just wanted to chime in. I agree and disagree with my points made here. What GregX said about how bad the 90s Spider-Man was and how brilliant Spectacular Spider-Man was spot on. I totally and completely agree with what he said.

I will address some of the other things that were said tomorrow as I am way too tired and sleepy to do it now.

FYI I am an equal DC and Marvel fan, meaning I love them both just about the same. I do not have a clear favorite, sometimes I may like one more than the other, but all in all I have equal love for both.

For those of you who say that that's not possible......IT IS!! I love DC and Marvel so equally that I have 2 favorite superheroes, not 1 , but 2. It's a tie between these 2 characters.

They are Batman from DC and Spider-Man from Marvel. I guess what it all boils down to is that I love Superheroes period. Ok well I'll post more in detail tomorrow.

[Arsenal]

This discussion of the 1990s Marvel shows vs. the last decade misses an important point.

Without the 1990s, we would not have Spectacular Spider-Man or Wolverine & the X-Men. The TAS's (X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Hulk et. al.) often had character designs that were difficult to animate. Their writing and character acting tended toward the histrionic, and most of the lesser known shows varied wildly in quality.

They were, in a word, imperfect. And I loved those shows. I didn't miss an episode of X-Men: TAS for years, even if my little brother needed to tape it.

But these shows created the audience that became the same people who went to see the X-Men and Spider-Man movies, legitimizing superheroes in the public's eye. (I should say re-legitimize because Tim Burton's Batman did the same thing beforehand.) Marvel had spent about a decade developing this audience on Saturday mornings. Then, when they needed them, they showed up at movie theaters.

Wolverine & the X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are each the second show for their titular star from the movie-hero wave. They were proceeded by X-Men: Evolution and the MTV Spider-Man. All four of these shows (and Fantastic Four: World Greatest Heroes, and Iron Man: Armored Adventures) depended partly on the momentum their movies created.

And those movies depended partly on the 1990s shows.

So I have no problem if you call this "the golden age" of Marvel Animation. Marvel has given us some top-flight stuff the last few years. But it's an exaggeration to call the 1990's the dark ages. Think of it, instead, as a germination phase.

[AlgeaX]

I will say this for the 90s, with the exception of The Spectacular Spider-Man and maybe the last two X-toons, the second season* of Iron Man is probably the best Marvel animated series ever!

*The first season is so radically different in both style an quality we should really treat them as separate shows.

[capfan1]

Why is there even a post like this?Its been done and never is settled because most people like the cheesy cartoony look of animation over the comic book style of animation.Its a matter of opinion and I like the more comic book style of animation.While others prefer cheesy cartoony style which is fine.I awaited the SSM squad to post comparisons and they didn't fail to do so.I still don't see how SSM is superior in animation and story compared to X-men animated series and most any other marvel series even the 80's.The character designs especially on peter parker are horrible but I guess thats what animation is like today.Those of you who say so what about how many shows spiderman 90's has compared to SSM that can be said about alot of series,the silver surfer and avengers united both wer'e stopped because of marvel's bankrupcy then.How many shows would there have been if marvel kept them going?Then again iron man had 2 seasons same with FF and hulk.Was it because those shows were'nt as good as spiderman and x-men?Probably so.It comes down to personal opinion and a thread like this is just wrong.

[RONDC20]

This discussion of the 1990s Marvel shows vs. the last decade misses an important point.

Without the 1990s, we would not have Spectacular Spider-Man or Wolverine & the X-Men. The TAS's (X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Hulk et. al.) often had character designs that were difficult to animate. Their writing and character acting tended toward the histrionic, and most of the lesser known shows varied wildly in quality.

They were, in a word, imperfect. And I loved those shows. I didn't miss an episode of X-Men: TAS for years, even if my little brother needed to tape it.

But these shows created the audience that became the same people who went to see the X-Men and Spider-Man movies, legitimizing superheroes in the public's eye. (I should say re-legitimize because Tim Burton's Batman did the same thing beforehand.) Marvel had spent about a decade developing this audience on Saturday mornings. Then, when they needed them, they showed up at movie theaters.

Wolverine & the X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are each the second show for their titular star from the movie-hero wave. They were proceeded by X-Men: Evolution and the MTV Spider-Man. All four of these shows (and Fantastic Four: World Greatest Heroes, and Iron Man: Armored Adventures) depended partly on the momentum their movies created.

And those movies depended partly on the 1990s shows.

So I have no problem if you call this "the golden age" of Marvel Animation. Marvel has given us some top-flight stuff the last few years. But it's an exaggeration to call the 1990's the dark ages. Think of it, instead, as a germination phase.

Good points and very well though out. Your conclusion makes more sense than mine does. The fact is that it's a great time for Superhero animation period.

Through the 90's and most of the 2000's DC had the TV animation Market cornered, most if not all their shows were top notch and high quality.

Marvel did not fare so well in the 90's. Greg X already said all that needed to be said about what was wrong withe the 90's Spider-Man and Wonderwall and macattack made excellent points as to the major problems with the super detailed character designs for X-Men and the other 90's Marvel shows. The designs were way too detailed and made for sloppy, blocky and stiff animation.

Simpler more streamlined designs make for more fluid and asethetic animation. These are animated series not Comic Books. If you want super detailed read the comics.

My problem with The recent F4 show is the lousy Action/Fight Scene Staging.

DC excelled at this.They have some of the best Action and Fight sequences in Television Animation. Im not just talking about the Bruce Timm shows. Im also talking about Teen Titans, The Batman and Legion of Superheroes and Batman Brave and The Bold.

Marvel is also great at this. Spectacular Spider-Man and Wolverine and The X-Men both have amazing action and fight scenes. Black Suit Spider-Man vs The Sinister Six in "Group Therapy" blew me away. Almost ever fight scene on this show is mind blowingly exciting. Wolverine and The X-Men also has decent action/ fight scenes.

The simpler more streamlined designs make for better action scenes


The way that these shows stage and storyboard their action and fight scenes is phenominal. The camera is always in the right place. The blocking is great. The coreographing is awsome and the animation is flawless.

The action and fight scenes in these shows are always exciting and dynamic, which is how it should be. The animation is fluid and cool. It just works.

You just never get bored when you watch these heroes in an action scene.

The new Fantastic 4 cartoon had none of this. This show has some of the worst action/fight scenes ever. These people don't know squat about staging and animating a good action scene, but this problem extends to more than just the action scenes.

The show uses strange camera angles and shots that are too experimental for animation and are often times confusing and off putting. Add this to the horrible editing. Their action scenes are boring and bland. Bad Staging and blocking with slopy animation. Often times they can be downright confusing.

The action scenes are boring and slow. The animation is not fluid. Bad Staging and blocking, Bad editing, and bad animation.

With Iron Man Armored Adventures, well I just have a problem with a teenage Iron Man/Tony Stark. To me thats like having a teenage Batman/Bruce Wayne and no Batman Beyond does not count cause that was not Bruce Wayne. To me it just does not work.

SHS well I dont hate it or love it, Its just there to me. I do dig the theme song though.

The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes looks AMAZING!!! I soooo cannot wait for it.

Ronald C


Why is there even a post like this?Its been done and never is settled because most people like the cheesy cartoony look of animation over the comic book style of animation.Its a matter of opinion and I like the more comic book style of animation.While others prefer cheesy cartoony style which is fine.I awaited the SSM squad to post comparisons and they didn't fail to do so.I still don't see how SSM is superior in animation and story compared to X-men animated series and most any other marvel series even the 80's.The character designs especially on peter parker are horrible but I guess thats what animation is like today.Those of you who say so what about how many shows spiderman 90's has compared to SSM that can be said about alot of series,the silver surfer and avengers united both wer'e stopped because of marvel's bankrupcy then.How many shows would there have been if marvel kept them going?Then again iron man had 2 seasons same with FF and hulk.Was it because those shows were'nt as good as spiderman and x-men?Probably so.It comes down to personal opinion and a thread like this is just wrong.

It's just that these are Superhero action shows capfan and detailed comic book like designs do not lend themselves to good,fluid animation. Not unless you have a huge budget.

These are animated shows not comic books. Just because the design of a show is not super detailed does not mean it's cheesy or cartoony. Do you know anything about design, animation and aesthetic?

[Rick Jones]

I don't think it's really fair to judge stuff like X-Men through post-DCAU eyes. It's easy to forget that there was a time when something like Batman TAS was far from the norm. Animation wise, X-Men was pretty typical of superhero/action shows but story-wise, it was pretty strong compared to most of the glorified 22 min. commercials that came before it. Timm and co. were really able to make something special as part of the post-Spielberg WB Animation studios and it's evident by the long reaching influence that it still has on action shows of today. I've always been a huge Marvel fan and while I was able to love and appreciate the artful advances of B:TAS at a really young age, X-Men was probably the one that I was more emotionally attached to (bad animation and all). It's always been a wish of mine that Marvel Animation will someday solidify into a strong studio, and there's been progress, but I think they still have a good way to go.

I don't really get why the Fleischer Superman series was brought up. That was high budgeted theatrical animation that tv animation of today still can't compare to.

[Wonderwall]

I don't really get why the Fleischer Superman series was brought up. That was high budgeted theatrical animation that tv animation of today still can't compare to.

Someone brought up that the animation of X men would be better if the technology was there. Fleisher may have had the budget but they definitely didn't have the technology that was available in the early 90s.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

I'm just moving my post from the Marvel Animation DVD/Blu-ray thread over to this thread to keep with the discussion.



The great thing about the 90's X-men series is that it had all the things I loved about the X-men in comics -- it was somewhat more faithful to the comics storylines and character designs (Jim Lee!) -- BUT, unfortunately, the execution was terrible -- The voice acting and animation were just bad -- especially compared to the stuff DC/WB were producing in the 90's.

Even though X-Men: Evolution deviates and takes several liberties with the characters and concepts, I think it is a superior series and still the best of all Marvel's animated programs produced for televison (with The Spectacular Spider-Man being a very close second).

[zembrianator]

The great thing about the 90's X-men series is that it had all the things I loved about the X-men in comics -- it was somewhat more faithful to the comics storylines and character designs (Jim Lee!) -- BUT, unfortunately, the execution was terrible -- The voice acting and animation were just bad -- especially compared to the stuff DC/WB were producing in the 90's.



Really? I thought the voice acting was spot on, every character sounded like they were supposed to in my opinion. Most of the shows i watched in the 90s had poor/flawed animation but in a twisted way made it enjoyable lol, it gave u the feeling of the 90s (ninja turtles in particular set the bar for fantastically terrible animation).

Apocalypse was definitely my fav. character/ voice in the 90s x-men.
Throughout the series u see glimpses of his megalomaniac ways. It pretty much culminates with the amazing 4 part beyond good and evil story line, where he uses, manipulates, and deceives everyone to achieve his ends...but he finally ticked off the wrong ppl and met his untimely end...more or less.
Pretty much every line of dialogue that came out of apocalypse's mouth was quotable.

[macattack]

Budget had something to do with why the 90's series didn't animate properly all of the time. The first season of the Incredible Hulk cartoon looked pretty damn good because it had a higher budget to put into animating everything. Heck, watch the first episode of that show, it's almost liquid-smooth. Then again Spider-Man's first episode looked good too and looked how that show turned out by the end. XD But another flaw is that all of these shows used digital coloring, something the overseas studios were not used to and all too often were used to cover up animation mistakes. It didn't become clear until later that digital coloring puts a glossy paint job on a half-finished house.

To use an anime example: Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny and Gundam 00 both have fairly streamlined designs. But Gundam 00 looks a lot better than either SEED series does. The difference is in the budget, along with the realization that digital coloring can't mask poorly animated material. They cut the budget back on stuff like music (SEED used a full orchestra, Gundam 00 has a lot of synth and electric guitars) in order to pour money into the animation and hiring high-profile studios to do in-betweens. The result is that Gundam 00's animation looks movie-like sometimes while SEED and SEED Destiny have not aged well at all.

That's the difference between the 90's Marvel shows and the ones that came in the 00's. The studios realized where their priorities should lie, and that resulted in increasing the budget for animation and cutting back on other things or further streamlining the character designs.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Really? I thought the voice acting was spot on, every character sounded like they were supposed to in my opinion. Most of the shows i watched in the 90s had poor/flawed animation but in a twisted way made it enjoyable lol, it gave u the feeling of the 90s (ninja turtles in particular set the bar for fantastically terrible animation).



Okay, let me back up a little -- I admit, there were some voices that were really perfect for the characters, like Beast, Professor X, Rogue, Gambit, and Jean (maybe), -- But then there were voices I just thought were over the top, like Wolverine (who always sounds constipated), Jubilee, Storm, and Cyclops. I guess my problem wasn't so much the voices themselves, but the delivery of the lines which seemed either melodramatic, trite, or just poorly read. I suppose it probably really all comes down to bad voice directing than bad voice casting.

[capfan1]

It's just that these are Superhero action shows capfan and detailed comic book like designs do not lend themselves to good,fluid animation. Not unless you have a huge budget.

These are animated shows not comic books. Just because the design of a show is not super detailed does not mean it's cheesy or cartoony. Do you know anything about design, animation and aesthetic?
These heroes come alive from the marvel comic pages and so should be similar to the designs.SSM designs and show are made to look so childish and nothing close to what comic book designs look like.Theres no need to take a cheap shot at me or a personal attack about me knowing anything about animation and design.The animation and design you are talking about are for an audience under 10.You started this thread because you feel its cool to attack marvel animation from the 90's to compare to the 2000's marvel shows,i'm not the only one who prefers 90's spidey and 90's x-men over todays shows.You showed nothing but ignorance and disrespect in this thread.I prefer the 90's series of spidey and x-men so please refrain from comments about bad animation.The animation was good enough but the shows quality far surpasses todays shows.BTW marvel rules!

[Antiyonder]

These heroes come alive from the marvel comic pages and so should be similar to the designs.SSM designs and show are made to look so childish and nothing close to what comic book designs look like.

And as infered on the previous page, if you want designs more accurate to the comic, you'd have to be able to pay studios over a billion dollars to have designs which are realistic and have fluid movement.

[FlawedCoil82]

Wow, where do I begin? Let me state right off the bat, X-Men (90's) is really the only cartoon I will talk about here because it is the only one that I watched religiously (I missed some family vacations over weekends just so I could catch a new episode on Saturday mornings). I only watched Spider-Man if nothing else was on (except the 2 parter with the X-Men).

First off, I need to stress one thing. The animation design of the show really meant squat to me. I loved how the X-Men looked on the Spider-Man cartoon just as much as I loved how they looked on the X-Men show. When the animation was done solely by Saban for the final 6 episodes of X-Men, I still thought they were equally as amazing as they were originally. Why? Because of the characters featured, the costumes they were in, the team line-up, the music, the voice casting (although I absolutely hated when they changed Gambit's voice). It was all still the same, even though it was drastically different animation. I guarantee 100% that if Wolverine And The X-Men featured the exact same team line-up, the exact same music, the exact same voice cast, the exact same costumes as those featured in the 90's X-Men, I would love the show just as much as the 90's show. The animation fluidity of today's cartoons can be a hundred times better than that of the 90's show, yet it can never topple the 90's X-Men for me simply because it isn't the same characters I fell dearly in love with in the 90's.

When the cartoon ended in 1997, the entire X-Men universe took a rocket-fueled elevator straight to Hell. The toys ceased to be standard looking figures and instead had ridiculous posing. The trading cards stopped. The comic turned all "Japanese" looking (but I could still handle it since they still had the same uniforms.) Then the ultimate sin happened and Marvel changed their uniforms, which might as well have canceled the comic altogether. At the end of "Graduation Day", it was like watching a beloved friend being put into the ground to be buried. The animation in those final 6 episodes was not given a fair time to shine. Only 3 of the episodes ("Hidden Agenda", "The Fifth Horseman" and "Graduation Day") were able to hint at the treasures that still could have been produced had Fox not been total idiots and canceled the series ("Old Soldiers" was an entertaining episode but I didn't really care since it didn't show the modern day team members). Even if they made a new CGI X-Men cartoon (not gonna happen), as long as they were the same characters, voices, costumes, music cues, etc., then I am certain I would still love it just as much as the 90's toon. There were many animation errors in the 90's X-Men series, but all the things I loved about that show were far more than enough to overlook that one complaint.

Granted, I only watched the first two episodes of Wolverine And The X-Men (since that's all Nickelodeon showed) and the following is a list of the things I felt they got right:
1. The movement of characters was indeed more fluid.
2. Rogue was back in her definitive yellow/green uniform (this is something that even the people sitting at Marvel Comics today still can not get right in the comics....lose her boring-as-crap green and white uniforms and robes already!!).
3. I believe I saw a clip on Youtube where Archangel was back in his blue uniform with the pink tribal striping on it. Again, something I sorely miss from the comics.

Honestly, that's about it. I am willing to give the show a chance once a season boxset comes out but from what I saw, it did not grab me even 1/10 as much as the 90's X-Men did immediately within the first 5 minutes. The 90's cartoon featured the flawless version of the X-Men (in my eyes) as they always should still have remained today. I promise I would not even be here today if it were not for the "Dark Age" of the 90's X-Men toon.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Wow, where do I begin? Let me state right off the bat, X-Men (90's) is really the only cartoon I will talk about here because it is the only one that I watched religiously (I missed some family vacations over weekends just so I could catch a new episode on Saturday mornings). I only watched Spider-Man if nothing else was on (except the 2 parter with the X-Men).

First off, I need to stress one thing. The animation design of the show really meant squat to me. I loved how the X-Men looked on the Spider-Man cartoon just as much as I loved how they looked on the X-Men show. When the animation was done solely by Saban for the final 6 episodes of X-Men, I still thought they were equally as amazing as they were originally. Why? Because of the characters featured, the costumes they were in, the team line-up, the music, the voice casting (although I absolutely hated when they changed Gambit's voice). It was all still the same, even though it was drastically different animation. I guarantee 100% that if Wolverine And The X-Men featured the exact same team line-up, the exact same music, the exact same voice cast, the exact same costumes as those featured in the 90's X-Men, I would love the show just as much as the 90's show. The animation fluidity of today's cartoons can be a hundred times better than that of the 90's show, yet it can never topple the 90's X-Men for me simply because it isn't the same characters I fell dearly in love with in the 90's.

When the cartoon ended in 1997, the entire X-Men universe took a rocket-fueled elevator straight to Hell. The toys ceased to be standard looking figures and instead had ridiculous posing. The trading cards stopped. The comic turned all "Japanese" looking (but I could still handle it since they still had the same uniforms.) Then the ultimate sin happened and Marvel changed their uniforms, which might as well have canceled the comic altogether. At the end of "Graduation Day", it was like watching a beloved friend being put into the ground to be buried. The animation in those final 6 episodes was not given a fair time to shine. Only 3 of the episodes ("Hidden Agenda", "The Fifth Horseman" and "Graduation Day") were able to hint at the treasures that still could have been produced had Fox not been total idiots and canceled the series ("Old Soldiers" was an entertaining episode but I didn't really care since it didn't show the modern day team members). Even if they made a new CGI X-Men cartoon (not gonna happen), as long as they were the same characters, voices, costumes, music cues, etc., then I am certain I would still love it just as much as the 90's toon. There were many animation errors in the 90's X-Men series, but all the things I loved about that show were far more than enough to overlook that one complaint.

Granted, I only watched the first two episodes of Wolverine And The X-Men (since that's all Nickelodeon showed) and the following is a list of the things I felt they got right:
1. The movement of characters was indeed more fluid.
2. Rogue was back in her definitive yellow/green uniform (this is something that even the people sitting at Marvel Comics today still can not get right in the comics....lose her boring-as-crap green and white uniforms and robes already!!).
3. I believe I saw a clip on Youtube where Archangel was back in his blue uniform with the pink tribal striping on it. Again, something I sorely miss from the comics.

Honestly, that's about it. I am willing to give the show a chance once a season boxset comes out but from what I saw, it did not grab me even 1/10 as much as the 90's X-Men did immediately within the first 5 minutes. The 90's cartoon featured the flawless version of the X-Men (in my eyes) as they always should still have remained today. I promise I would not even be here today if it were not for the "Dark Age" of the 90's X-Men toon.

Sounds to me like you are so totally in love with the 90's X-Men, that anything that does not represent that period of the team (the comics, the cartoons, the movies, the toys, etc.) is always going to be less even if it is better produced than anything that came from that specific period.

I understand and respect your affection for that particular version of the X-Men -- it's actually one of my favorite periods of the team, too -- I'm a big fan of the Jim Lee run -- but I don't allow that appreciation to control my judgements and criticisms, which I think is what's happening with you. Instead of favoring and appreciating that period and the animated series for the sake of nostalgia, you've become such an admirer of them that your opinion has become biased against anything that does not reflect that particular period, despite everything, no matter how good or bad, that came before or after.

There's nothing wrong with that, actually, but it does make it difficult to discuss or debate anything X-Men related with you when all you see is how great that incarnation of the team and era was/is, regardless of any flaws it may have.

I love the X-Men of the 90's, but, even at the time, it was difficult for me to watch that animated series, because I just thought the production was not all that great as it could have been. Even as bad as Pryde of The X-Men was, the animation was at least superior to the regular 90's X-Men series.

I really wish they would revisit these periods of the teams again (the 90's, as well as the 80's) in DTV features, just so we can get better produced animated stories, but I realize that's not going to happen, so I accept it.

[RONDC20]

UGH! Enough! I'm sorry I even started this thread. Were just going around in circles. This is all a simple matter of differing opinions, that's all and were all entitled to our own.

I was on a high after I saw the trailer for The New Avengers show. In retrospect perhaps it was a mistake to start this thread. capfan I'm sorry if I insulted you. I did not mean to. I've made my point and you have made yours and we just happen to dissagree. We just keep going in circles.

I'm done with this thread.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

UGH! Enough! I'm sorry I even started this thread. Were just going around in circles. This is all a simple matter of differing opinions, that's all and were all entitled to our own.

I was on a high after I saw the trailer for The New Avengers show. In retrospect perhaps it was a mistake to start this thread. capfan I'm sorry if I insulted you. I did not mean to. I've made my point and you have made yours and we just happen to dissagree. We just keep going in circles.

I'm done with this thread.


Well, what did you expect?

RONDC20, based on your initial post, I'm of the same mindset as you. I totally agree! I basically think Marvel animation in the 90's was dreadful compared to what DC/WB was doing. This is not the first time any of us have debated this, and I've had my arguments in several threads about how great X-Men: Evolution was and how Marvel upped their game from that point on.

But, really, what did you think was going to happen when you start a thread declaring that the Dark Ages of Marvel Animation was over, when there are hordes of Marvel loyalists that love those "Dark Ages"?

I'm with you, but I wouldn't have said what you said without expecting some sort of backlash.

:D

[TheVileOne]

The dark period to me if you can call it that was there was a time where we had X-men, Spider-man, Iron Man, Fantastic Four. I enjoyed all those shows, flaws and everything.

All those shows eventually ended. Then we got Silver Surfer which was promising, but got cancelled because I forget why, Marvel was going through bankruptcy and had all sorts of issues with ToyBiz I believe.

To me the dark period was when Marvel animated shows came back they came back in the form of Spider-man: Unlimited and Avengers: United They Stand which were horrible shows. The planned Captain America show that in the works and going to come on around the time of Silver Surfer was scrapped. So we ended up getting garbage like Spider-man and Avengers. Neither of those shows lasted past a season.

Spider-man got another show again, but it was unfortunately the MTV series. Again horrible and a bad way to capitalize on the popularity of the movie. The show didn't get past a season despite claims of Avi Arad that a second season was definite. There was no demand. The show was a flop.

So to me the only dark ages period was the late 90's early 00's. So now we are getting a nice group of promising looking shows.

[Trevor]

Just moving my response from the DVD thread over to here.



As for whether the Marvel shows of today are Marvel's golden age, I would have to say that they are at the end of the golden age since Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armoured Adventures are good shows and they do have interesting stories, but really the 90's have more interesting characters and storylines. And Rogue is a more intersting character in the 90's series since in X-Men: Evolution and WATX she really doesn't have that interesting of a power that sets her apart from the other X-men and mutants. Even the few appearances of Jubilee in the recent series have made her a rather unremarkable character that you could really care less for, and yet in the 90's series, while her powers were not the best, she was able to become a rather interesting character over the course of the series.

With the 90's Spider-Man you also have to remember that it was one of the first cartoons to introduce digital coloring to cartoons while the X-Men was still being colored by hand. But even though the 90's Spider-Man was digitally colored, that coloring still gave a depth to what you were seeing on the TV screen. The digital coloring that has been used in recent shows looks like it has been rather sloppily applied and just looks plain boring with extremely little shading to indicate the roundness of an arm or a leg, etc.

Plus think of how many times in the commentaries on the DVD's to the various shows that have been released have the produciton crew said that in the newer series the are still trying to set the series apart from the 90's series in not just animation but story telling?

So I think the Golden Age of Marvel animation on TV has passed and the stuff from the 90's cartoons are still used as "the bar" with which the newer shows are compared to. (I must say, even though the Marvel stuff from the 60's to the 80's are still classic TV shows, you don't hear people saying that those shows still hold "the bar" for Marvel shows.) And even though X-Men: Evolution had 52 episodes when you think of how many episodes the MTV Spider-Man, Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes, Spectecular Spider-Man and Wolverine and the X-Men have, with an average of 13 to 26 episodes per series, the Marvel shows from the 90's were more successful with Spider-Man having 65 episodes and X-Men having 76. And all the other series looked as though they were heading for more than 26 episodes had Marvel not gone bankrupt.

[TheVileOne]

Iron Man and Fantastic Four in the 90's only had 26. Silver Surfer only had 13.

[W.C.Reaf]

Plus think of how many times in the commentaries on the DVD's to the various shows that have been released have the produciton crew said that in the newer series the are still trying to set the series apart from the 90's series in not just animation but story telling?

These guys are always going to talk about the previous shows and how they don't want their show to be like it, that's just a creative fact. If you're working on an established property you don't want to make something that's essentially the same as the old show. If the guys running it are fans of the old shows then of course they're going to talk about them but if they're not then they probably won't.

I'm curious now, where have these creators compared their shows to the old ones and how they're trying to "set the series apart from the 90's series"? I'd like to have a listen to them.


And even though X-Men: Evolution had 52 episodes when you think of how many episodes the MTV Spider-Man, Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes, Spectecular Spider-Man and Wolverine and the X-Men have, with an average of 13 to 26 episodes per series, the Marvel shows from the 90's were more successful with Spider-Man having 65 episodes and X-Men having 76. And all the other series looked as though they were heading for more than 26 episodes had Marvel not gone bankrupt.

Well WatX, Iron Man AA, and SSM (hopefully) are still ongoing so might get more episodes than the 90s shows. FF WGH got the same amount as the 90s FF show, Iron Man AA has gotten twice as much it's 90s counterpart since it was picked up for a second season, WatX has 52 episodes at the moment and if it gets a season 3 it'll have 78 eps, 2 more than the 90s show. That’s not even going into the new Avengers show which has more episodes than the 90s one and it hasn’t even aired yet.

So the episode numbers aren't that far off except for SSM which has had network problems so that's not any indication of quality any more than it is of Silver Surfer's quality since that ended due to Marvel's bankruptcy.

[Trevor]

Well WatX, Iron Man AA, and SSM (hopefully) are still ongoing so might get more episodes than the 90s shows. FF WGH got the same amount as the 90s FF show, Iron Man AA has gotten twice as much it's 90s counterpart since it was picked up for a second season, WatX has 52 episodes at the moment and if it gets a season 3 it'll have 78 eps, 2 more than the 90s show. That’s not even going into the new Avengers show which has more episodes than the 90s one and it hasn’t even aired yet.

So the episode numbers aren't that far off except for SSM which has had network problems so that's not any indication of quality any more than it is of Silver Surfer's quality since that ended due to Marvel's bankruptcy.

Well right now, considering that WATXM has been, apparently, stuck at the same stage as it was in November 2008 (being in pre-production) you have to wonder if it's going to go the same way as Spider-Man Unlimited in that it ended with a cliff-hanger that was never resolved (but I hope the producers do resolve it).

Also, what's to say that any further seasons of the shows are going to be full 26 episode seasons? Just look at X-Men Evolution. It's 1st season had 13 episodes, 2nd had 17, 3rd 13 and the 4th only 9 before it was cancelled with a total of 52. MTV Spider-Man and Spectacular Spider-Man both had 13 episodes in their first season and SSM only had 13 episodes in it's second season, while Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes and Wolverine and the X-Men had 26 episodes in their only seasons that have aired.

Other cartoons by different studios also follow this rather "twisted" formula. The majority of the Disney cartoons from the late 80's and early 90's featured 1st seasons that contained anywhere from 60-65 episodes with later seasons (if picked up) featuring 8-26 episodes per season, since 60-65 episodes was the syndication minimum back in the 90's. Warner Brothers Batman Beyond contained 13 episodes each in Seasons 1 and 3, but then Season 2 contained 26. Justice League Unlimited contained 26 episodes in it's first 2 seasons, and then the last 3 seasons only had 13 new episodes each season.

And just because a series has been picked up to air doesn't mean that it's definite until it does air, and even then network's or production studios may decide to cancel the series mid-season if the ratings aren't there.

But then, considering that Marvel has recently been acquired by Disney there is also Disney's back ground of cancelling shows that were successful if they have been off the air for too long and the Disney execs feel that the audience that was watching the shows just isn't there any longer. I'm not sure how recently Disney has done this, but back in the 1950's when Disney was airing it's live-action series Zorro, due to negotiations between Disney and ABC, Zorro was off the air for over a year and when the series came back it came back as 4 1-hour episodes on Disney's anthology series because Walt and his board felt that the audience that had tuned into ABC during the first and second seasons would just not be there anymore.

So, don't "count your chickens before they hatch".

[Hypestyle]

I'm waiting for the first disney-backed marvel show.. all the hubbub over the purchase has yet to produce any particular fruits.. :shrug: 2011, hope there's some really cool stuff that comes out..

[W.C.Reaf]

I'm waiting for the first disney-backed marvel show.. all the hubbub over the purchase has yet to produce any particular fruits.. :shrug: 2011, hope there's some really cool stuff that comes out..

Well it only officially happened about a month and a half ago, not much is going to be announced in that short a time frame. If they are planning something animation wise they're probably still in talks about it and figuring out what exactly they want to do.

Let's not forget that currently Marvel has X-men and Iron Man shows out, Avengers and Thor in the works, and Spider-Man waiting for a pick-up. There's not many other big Marvel properties Disney can do animated at the moment that isn't already in the works.

[ryandcow]

While I agree that TSSM is great, definitely the best T.V. incarnation of Spiderman ever, and WaTXM is also awesome (IM-AA would be better w/out the stupid CGI) the duds mentioned in the first post ruin the 2000's for me. The 90's Spiderman was very, very good and the 90's Iron Man (which no one ever talks about by the way) was also great. X-Men was good and overall none of the 90's shows are bad. XMEV TSSM and WaTXM are not able to carry the bad shows that are also there, while none of the 90's shows really need to be carried.

[Wonderwall]

While I agree that TSSM is great, definitely the best T.V. incarnation of Spiderman ever, and WaTXM is also awesome (IM-AA would be better w/out the stupid CGI) the duds mentioned in the first post ruin the 2000's for me. The 90's Spiderman was very, very good and the 90's Iron Man (which no one ever talks about by the way) was also great. X-Men was good and overall none of the 90's shows are bad. XMEV TSSM and WaTXM are not able to carry the bad shows that are also there, while none of the 90's shows really need to be carried.

I wouldn't call Iron Man in the 90s great. It's second half was awesome but that first season was horrendous. Same can be said for the FF show in the 90s, the first season of that show was one of the worst cartoons I've ever seen. Let's not forget Hulk's second season. Both decades had their share of garbage as well treasure.

[W.C.Reaf]

While I agree that TSSM is great, definitely the best T.V. incarnation of Spiderman ever, and WaTXM is also awesome (IM-AA would be better w/out the stupid CGI) the duds mentioned in the first post ruin the 2000's for me. The 90's Spiderman was very, very good and the 90's Iron Man (which no one ever talks about by the way) was also great. X-Men was good and overall none of the 90's shows are bad. XMEV TSSM and WaTXM are not able to carry the bad shows that are also there, while none of the 90's shows really need to be carried.

That's kinda ignoring the bad part of the 90s. What about Avengers: United they Stand or Spider-Man Unlimited, or as Wonderwall said season 1 of Iron Man and FF as well as season 2 of Hulk.

2000s had the MTV Spidey and possibly FF:WGH and IM:AA (depending on who you ask) as the low points of the decade. One show that was really bad and two others that opinions wildly vary on is not worse than two awful ones and three bad seasons of various other shows.

Considering I couldn’t stand watching a full episode of Avengers or Spidey Unlimited while I was able to watch the full seasons of FF: WGH, IM:AA, and MTV Spidey I’d say the bad shows of the last decade are better than the 90s bad shows. IMO

[Barbossa]

IMO I'd rather watch Superhero squad than the majority of the 90s shows
I actually just saw an Incredible hulk episode which involved She-hulk and that pretty much summed up why I'm not a fan of the 90s toons but they did have catchy opening theme songs.

[ryandcow]

I liked Spiderman Unlimited, but yea that Avengers show was pretty bad.... Don't even get me started on SHS.... The disgusting chibis and the ridiculous disregard for source material, it is my least favorite of the current shows.

[Barbossa]

Ridiculous disregard for source material? SHS is arguably more fathful to the source material than 90s Avengers and Spiderman Unlimited put together.
At least the characters in SHS are more recognizable.I'm sure Spiderman won't have a silly cape and be stuck in some random alternate earth if he was in the show and at least the characters don't wear silly battle armour as seen in 90s Avengers

I will take disgusting chibis over silly battle armour and annoying 90s she hulk

[ryandcow]

Silver Surfer a surfer bro? Bruce Banner not existing? come on....

[Barbossa]

I know, I find the surfer bro stuff really funny.The whole show is a joke just a bit of fun .It does not take itself seriously .I just enjoy it for what it is,just don't take it seriously.

Marvel are allowed to make fun of their characters even if it angers some of their fans and that gamble seems to be paying off

[ryandcow]

I accept it as a kids show but not quality animation.

[Matthew Williams]

The Marvel "dark age" in animation lasted from 1998 to about 2001.

That, not coincidentally, happened to be the time where Saban held the license to produce Marvel animation. They did the 90s X-Men, yes, but the worst Marvel shows were produced under their watch.

Spider-Man Unlimited? Saban.

Avengers: United They Stand? Saban.

Hulk Season 2? Saban again, although I'm not entirely sure how much they were involved with that season.

I'll grant them Silver Surfer, which I thought was a very high quality show, but the other Marvel originals they did were pretty much garbage...

[Christo]

I get the feeling I'm in a different age bracket than some of you around here, so let me add my perspective.

I love Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. I love the Incredible Hulk show that was paired up with it in the mid 1980's. I even have a soft spot for the Fantastic Four with Herbie the robot.

However, I cannot look back at these shows and honestly say that they were good. Good for their time? Absolutely. But they have not aged particularly well (even though Firestar still makes me feel funny).

I think many of the opinions on this board about the Marvel stuff from the 1990's suffer from the rose colored glasses we call nostalgia. Personally, I've been re-watching the X-Men series just recently ... and it's hard to sit through an episode. The voices, the animation, the dialogue, the music and the atrocious editing make the show very difficult to watch. I actually fell asleep during the first part of the Phoenix Saga.

Spider-Man is the same. I have to agree with the poster who hated Mary Jane in this show; she drove me nuts. A horrible character portrayed through insipid dialogue and a poor actress.

The bright point of the decade (for me) was the second season of Fantastic Four ... and even that was pretty hit-and-miss.

But that's all just my opinion. I don't have the warm feelings that many of you do when it comes to these particular shows. Seeing your favorite characters animated for the first time is a seminal experience ... heck, I'm still addicted to Super Friends.

I don't think that the 1990s were any more of a 'Dark Age' for Marvel animation than the 80s, 70s, or 60s. They showed progress, they learned and they improved.

I can say that I've been very impressed with this decade's offerings from Marvel ... SSM is (IMO) the best animated series ever to come out of the House of Ideas (X:Evolution is a close second). But just because we have positive things to say about the last ten years' worth of stuff, it doesn't mean that the 90s were a Dark Age ... because if you grew up with those shows, they were magical for you.

Heck, it's even possible that in ten years, we'll look back and think that the 00s were a 'Dark Age'.

(Of course, if all shows in the next ten years are akin to Superhero Squad, I may take the decade off) ;)

[ryandcow]

In the 90's X-Men series, Charles Xavier's voice is so weird. He sounds awful. The Spiderman show is still very watchable though.

[dmxx116]

In the 90's X-Men series, Charles Xavier's voice is so weird. He sounds awful. The Spider man show is still very watchable though. I disagree with about Xavier's voice it his voice I hear when read the comics.

[Barbossa]

Even his girly scream?

[ryandcow]

I hear the Wolverine and the X-men voice. Xavier's voice needs a strange unplaceable accent for me

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

I get the feeling I'm in a different age bracket than some of you around here, so let me add my perspective.

I love Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. I love the Incredible Hulk show that was paired up with it in the mid 1980's. I even have a soft spot for the Fantastic Four with Herbie the robot.

However, I cannot look back at these shows and honestly say that they were good. Good for their time? Absolutely. But they have not aged particularly well (even though Firestar still makes me feel funny).

I think many of the opinions on this board about the Marvel stuff from the 1990's suffer from the rose colored glasses we call nostalgia. Personally, I've been re-watching the X-Men series just recently ... and it's hard to sit through an episode. The voices, the animation, the dialogue, the music and the atrocious editing make the show very difficult to watch. I actually fell asleep during the first part of the Phoenix Saga.

Spider-Man is the same. I have to agree with the poster who hated Mary Jane in this show; she drove me nuts. A horrible character portrayed through insipid dialogue and a poor actress.

The bright point of the decade (for me) was the second season of Fantastic Four ... and even that was pretty hit-and-miss.

But that's all just my opinion. I don't have the warm feelings that many of you do when it comes to these particular shows. Seeing your favorite characters animated for the first time is a seminal experience ... heck, I'm still addicted to Super Friends.

I don't think that the 1990s were any more of a 'Dark Age' for Marvel animation than the 80s, 70s, or 60s. They showed progress, they learned and they improved.

I can say that I've been very impressed with this decade's offerings from Marvel ... SSM is (IMO) the best animated series ever to come out of the House of Ideas (X:Evolution is a close second). But just because we have positive things to say about the last ten years' worth of stuff, it doesn't mean that the 90s were a Dark Age ... because if you grew up with those shows, they were magical for you.

Heck, it's even possible that in ten years, we'll look back and think that the 00s were a 'Dark Age'.

(Of course, if all shows in the next ten years are akin to Superhero Squad, I may take the decade off) ;)


Marvel animated shows in the 80's were good for their time, and I can still watch them, despite their flaws, with respect for the time they were made.

But Marvel animated shows in the 90's were not good for their time; Despite being more faithful to the comic storylines, they were just bad.

[dmxx116]

Marvel animated shows in the 80's were good for their time, and I can still watch them, despite their flaws, with respect for the time they were made.

But Marvel animated shows in the 90's were not good for their time; Despite being more faithful to the comic storylines, they were just bad.Maybe bad to you but not for me I like the 90's Marvel animated shows even with all it flaw's but I don't like Spiderman Unlimited,Avengers,Silver Surfer,and Hulk's second season.

[GregX]

Bruce Timm's thoughts on the Fox Kids Spider-Man cartoon.


"I watched the pilot, the one with the Lizard. I thought that the pilot was really good, and by [the next episode] the quality had just plummeted. I didn't watch it every week, but they sent me these Academy screeners for the Emmys — They sent me a Spider-Man episode from, I think, the 2nd season, and I thought, 'Well, I haven't seen it in a long time, so I'll pop it in and see what they're up to.' And it was god-awful. 'This is the one that they're sending out for Emmy considerations?'"

I'm looking for a source to cite for this one.

[W.C.Reaf]

I'm looking for a source to cite for this one.

It's from an interview with Bruce Timm in Comicology #1 (http://www.mycomicshop.com/comicbooks/item?IID=5894681), part of the interview was online a few years ago and it did have the bit you've quoted. Sadly I can't find it online anymore and the links I can find are now dead. Lucky for me I managed to save it 'cause it is a great interview. ;)

The Marvel bit is only short, a little over 600 words, and he doesn't go into that much more detail.

[TMC1982]

I disagree with about Xavier's voice it his voice I hear when read the comics.

Yeah, what's exactly wrong with Cedric Smith's performance? Other than Patrick Stewart in the live-action films, I would like to consider Cedric Smith to be the definitive Charles Xavier.

[Trevor]

Other than Patrick Stewart in the live-action films, I would like to consider Cedric Smith to be the definitive Charles Xavier.


On a Star Trek board some one pointed this out to me about how in the novel Planet X, which is a joining up of the Star Trek The Next Generation crew with the X-Men, how Michael Jan Friedman actually had Doctor Crusher remark at how similar Captain Picard and Professor Xavier looked and sounded...and yet the novel was published in 1998, a full 2-years before Patrick Stewart appeared on the Silver Screen as Professor Charles Xavier.

But I would have to say that Cedric Smith is the definitive animated Charles Xavier and all the other voice actors sound like they have been trying to emulate Smith's Xavier (except for the actor who did Xavier in Pryde Of The X-Men, he did a completely different voice).



Personally, I've been re-watching the X-Men series just recently ... and it's hard to sit through an episode. The voices, the animation, the dialogue, the music and the atrocious editing make the show very difficult to watch. I actually fell asleep during the first part of the Phoenix Saga.


I've also been rewatching the 90's X-Men recently and I've found it a joy to watch, since the stories are so rich, and in some cases you have two or three seperate stories running for two or three episodes (or in the case of the Xavier/Magneto story in Season 2, the entire season) and never getting lost. Plus the animation is excellent and beautiful and really gives the characters a good dimensionality to their personas; the episodes are "eye candy". Sure you may not have the 5.1 or 2.0 Surround audio as found in more recent cartoons, but the episodes draw you into the stories. And so far X-Men is still the longest running Marvel show (unless you count each individual story from the 1967 Spider-Man series as 1 episode) and even in years down the road it is probably going to be placed in the same position as the 1967 Spider-Man series in that it is the "Classic" series of that franchise, and will be compared to.

[Rick Jones]

On a Star Trek board some one pointed this out to me about how in the novel Planet X, which is a joining up of the Star Trek The Next Generation crew with the X-Men, how Michael Jan Friedman actually had Doctor Crusher remark at how similar Captain Picard and Professor Xavier looked and sounded...and yet the novel was published in 1998, a full 2-years before Patrick Stewart appeared on the Silver Screen as Professor Charles Xavier.
Patrick Stewart has been lots of fanboys' (myself included) ideal live-action Prof. X for about as long as X-Men movie rumors were going around.

[Trevor]

Patrick Stewart has been lots of fanboys' (myself included) ideal live-action Prof. X for about as long as X-Men movie rumors were going around.

But considering that the novel was okayed to go into print by both Paramount and Marvel with that in it a full 2 years before the X-Men movies came out (sure the movies were by Fox, but Marvel could've easily told Paramount and Simon & Schuster that that sentence needed to be changed)!

[Wonderwall]

Plus the animation is excellent and beautiful and really gives the characters a good dimensionality to their personas; the episodes are "eye candy".

Probably the only time this will be said about this show.

I like the show too, but looking back it's got nothing to do with the animation, let's call a spade a spade here. It's pretty horrendous actually, aside from those 2 episodes with the alien monster in the sewer which did look decent. The last few seasons I think had better quality but I don't really remember them as much as the earlier seasons. Eye candy at the time was BTAS or the Disney Afternoon stuff, this...not so much.

Luckily the stories and characters had some real effort put into them when it came to the writing. If I had to choose which show out of the 90s to pick, it's definitely X men as it's flaws are easier to look past than the other 3 shows.