Are anime/manga spin off works/merchandise sexist to women or not?

[HellCat]

It seems to be said more and more these days that anime and manga are apparently sexist to women. Though really it's less the original work that comes under fire but it's derivatives- figurines, magazine spreads, etc. It can often seem that any given female character can expect to be shown on solo adventures, almost always involving bizarre career options (lifeguard, police, etc) and striking allegedly seductive poses. But the question I'm raising in this discussion is how accurate are these complaints? Are women being objectified or is it simply a case of easily disturbed 'prudes'?

I'll start by highlighting what I'd consider to be the standard example of such merchandise- http://www.hlj.com/product/MEG71067 Here we have an established and popular female character from a well known series posing in a swimsuit. It's only fair to mention said character did wear this outfit in the events of the story. Really, I imagine this item is being targetted at a small but ranged niche. Some might like it because they like the design of the character or her costume, whilst others might just go for it because 'Hey, girl in a bikini!'.
Now let me link one that seems slightly more questionable- http://www.hlj.com/product/MEG71241 Now, again to be fair, the sales text does draw attention to the long held military tradition of mascot girls. But really I'd imagine the first thing that strikes most about this is the 'imaginative' placement of an ammunition shell. By design, this piece of work is drawing a direct reference to the idea that women basically exist for sex. You could try and argue that it could be taken the other way, but then why choose a shell (something commonly associated with violently piercing the human body) rather than someway that either empowers the female focus or instead plays it as mutually romantic? There's a shade of cheeky humour to it but to me this seems to be a clear case of objectifying the female, not portraying her as a human equal.

[Rud]

Well of course is it, but theres is all kinds of merchandise out there for all kinds of people, including people who wanna see female characters in sexy poses and stuff, i dont think its wrong to make these things.

[GWOtaku]

I think things like swimsuit figures are totally ridiculous, though I'll take it over a beach episode existing in an anime I suppose. Of more consequence is portraying characters in things they would never wear simply because there might be some fans that are drawn to that kind of thing. 90% of the time, show me an anime girl in a maid outfit and I'll point and say "yes, that's what an exploitative product looks like."

On another front: do I think this stuff reflects anything about the original work? Not really. Once upon a time there was controversy about this collectible (https://www.sideshowtoy.com/?page_id=4489&sku=6818) of Mary Jane, but while there are valid complaints about sexism in American comics in general I wouldn't accept an argument that says "look here, this product proves that there's something wrong with Spider-Man!" It's only reasonable for me to have a similar attitude toward most anime in the same situation that didn't start out as something obviously exploitative or objectifying in the first place.

[Taekmkm]

I'll go for "prude" because this is a very, very specific demographic the merchandise is targeting to.

[Karl Olson]

The portrayal of women in anime has been a long term gripe from folks like Miyazaki (who is a proud feminist) for decades now. However, you also have to factor in that Japan as a developed nation has come late to feminism, and in Japan it's sometimes even undermined by censorship-oriented extremists (see: Agnes-chan.) Even without that, you still have some very burned in gender-based expectations that both genders need to get over, if only to keep Japan's population from collapsing. In a sense, given all that cultural tension, it's surprising that more the mainstream merch isn't as explicit and weird as the garage kits.

Now, I still think merch has taken a swing towards the more exploitative lately (a series like Macross wouldn't have had such an over-the-top figure back in the day,) and anime in the past decade started relatively progressive but fell apart as Japanese otaku became the dominant demographic to sell to, but that isn't so much problem as a symptom of bigger issues in country.

Does this mean the merch may come from or be delivered in demand of sexist ideals? Probably - at the very least they are counting a bit on the objectification of women to help sell the merch/show. Does this mean that if you buy Lacus in a swimsuit, you're sexist? Only if you bought it because it's objectifying a woman. If bought it because you like the show, and you thought it was a cool piece of merch, that's somewhat different.

To put it another way, I know plenty very non-sexist if not outright feminist ladies who enjoy sexy anime figures and dirty anime. Maybe that comes with it's own story, but it seems that being for equal rights doesn't mean being against sexy figures or anime per se.

[Taekmkm]

(a series like Macross wouldn't have had such an over-the-top figure back in the day,)

Hey, give Frontier some credit. At least they didn't do a nude scene >_>

[Karl Olson]

Hey, give Frontier some credit. At least they didn't do a nude scene >_>

True, trade one thing for another I suppose.

[Shawn Hopkins]

They certainly are, but they're really just a symptom. They're the product of a sexist society with some obvious deep social ills.

I don't know if there's any point in comparing how relatively sexist various societies are and playing that game, but it's clear that the place anime comes from has a long way to go to be non-sexist and that there's a level of sexual repression there that sometimes leads to some very alarming and socially alienating kinks and dysfunction.

[Harlequinn]

"she is the one named sailor moon!"

[firefoxprime]

"she is the one named sailor moon!"


c'mon now.
seriously?

[Harlequinn]

c'mon now.
seriously?

What i meant by that quote was that if anything Sailor Moon is NOT sexist to women at all.

[firefoxprime]

What i meant by that quote was that if anything Sailor Moon is NOT sexist to women at all.


lol...relax.:p
i apologize for you not seeing my sarcasm :P
sailor is one of thefirst five anime i saw growing up

1. Speed Racer(original)
2. DBZ
3. Sailor Moon
4. Ronin Warriors
5.Voltron

[Karl Olson]

They certainly are, but they're really just a symptom. They're the product of a sexist society with some obvious deep social ills.

I don't know if there's any point in comparing how relatively sexist various societies are and playing that game, but it's clear that the place anime comes from has a long way to go to be non-sexist and that there's a level of sexual repression there that sometimes leads to some very alarming and socially alienating kinks and dysfunction.

Well, it's made worse because it is actually sexist in both directions. Both genders in Japan have expectations so far outside of the reality of that nation, that it's leaving men and women at tilting at windmills, especially because people seem unable to settle (perhaps impart because of percieved expectations from older generations,) for less that their distorted ideals.

The dirty anime figurine is one facet of many when comes to Japan's gender interaction issue.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Well, it's made worse because it is actually sexist in both directions. Both genders in Japan have expectations so far outside of the reality of that nation, that it's leaving men and women at tilting at windmills, especially because people seem unable to settle (perhaps impart because of percieved expectations from older generations,) for less that their distorted ideals.

The dirty anime figurine is one facet of many when comes to Japan's gender interaction issue.

You've got a good point there because, at least on the male side, buying one of those perverted figurines or getting into violent cartoon porn or sleeping with a body pillow is certainly a way of "dropping out" of normal sexual relations and living a life of fantasy. Guys that buy stuff like that clearly have no worries of girls ever seeing the inside of their house.

I wonder if this is part of why birth rates in Japan are dropping below death rates.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Bdrates_of_Japan_since_1950.svg

[Karl Olson]

You've got a good point there because, at least on the male side, buying one of those perverted figurines or getting into violent cartoon porn or sleeping with a body pillow is certainly a way of "dropping out" of normal sexual relations and living a life of fantasy. Guys that buy stuff like that clearly have no worries of girls ever seeing the inside of their house.

You also have to keep in mind that's also partially reactionary to the fact that many surveys seem to peg the wants of Japanese women such that most Japanese men can't come through on it, leaving them rejected. When most Japanese women won't consider a man who is making under X dollars a year, but at the same time the average man is lucky to be getting a 1/3 of that when they are starting out, there are probably plenty of guys who would have loved to be something other than fantasy obsessed, but have run into a brick wall. Add to that the common Japanese tradition of women running the family finances, and even some of the guys who are well paid would rather not marry because they want to keep control of their discretionary income.

At the same time, the purity-obsessed otaku mindset is closing doors in the other direction. Surely there are some women who wouldn't mind dating an otaku, maybe even a less than well-off otaku, but if that otaku insists on the same "she's a pure virgin"-spec his favorite visual novel characters have, he's statistically out of luck. Most women in his age group probably aren't virgins. Add to that stuff like the extreme obsessions with youth, completely unrealistic body ideals and so on, and you have a pretty huge wall for women to climb as well.

In short, too many Japanese men are chasing too few Japanese Women, and the opposite is also true. That's bad enough, but then it feedbacks on itself as well.

It sounds horrible to say this, but Japan needs to learn to settle, or it's got to rearrange it's priorities so it's focused on the character of a partner, not the bank account or the bust (or lack there-of.)


I wonder if this is part of why birth rates in Japan are dropping below death rates.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Bdrates_of_Japan_since_1950.svg

It sure doesn't help, and if you follow that with effectively no immigration due to hard xenophobia, you really put yourself in a population bind.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I love how people always pop this topic up at least once every few months, as if implying Japan is a deeply sexist society that us more "civilized" North Americans should be appalled at.

Take a good look around North America, people. Plenty of sexism and exploitation out in the open in our home countries too. And no, it is not "less obvious" here than it is Japan. It is OBVIOUS. We just choose to shield our eyes to it.

If you want to talk about how media in general, worldwide, are still deeply sexist towards women, fine. That's a legit argument. But please don't to imply that we "civilized" Westerners are somehow any better.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I love how people always pop this topic up at least once every few months, as if implying Japan is a deeply sexist society that us more "civilized" North Americans should be appalled at.

Take a good look around North America, people. Plenty of sexism and exploitation out in the open in our home countries too. And no, it is not "less obvious" here than it is Japan. It is OBVIOUS. We just choose to shield our eyes to it.

If you want to talk about how media in general, worldwide, are still deeply sexist towards women, fine. That's a legit argument. But please don't to imply that we "civilized" Westerners are somehow any better.

I think it's fair to talk about how Japan, specifically, is sexist. You don't need to make any relative comparisons to see that, and the fact that other countries are also sexist doesn't excuse Japanese sexism or social problems.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I think it's fair to talk about how Japan, specifically, is sexist. You don't need to make any relative comparisons to see that, and the fact that other countries are also sexist doesn't excuse Japanese sexism or social problems.

That's certainly a fair point. But these kind of threads inevitably start reeking of Western superiority, and I find that if you're going to talk about another country's societal ills, you'd better not be coming at it from a hypocritical angle.

It always comes down to those "Oh, those wacky Japanese and their numerous sexual fetishes." There are plenty of the same fetishes in North America and more, and just as openly presented as well.

Now I'm not trying to divert the subject--on a purely isolated case, I agree with you. I'm just saying that the sheer barely-disguised nationalistic arrogance that tends to waff over these type of threads is often unbearable, for those of us who see it.

[Shawn Hopkins]

That's certainly a fair point. But these kind of threads inevitably start reeking of Western superiority, and I find that if you're going to talk about another country's societal ills, you'd better not be coming at it from a hypocritical angle.

It always comes down to those "Oh, those wacky Japanese and their numerous sexual fetishes." There are plenty of the same fetishes in North America and more, and just as openly presented as well.

Now I'm not trying to divert the subject--on a purely isolated case, I agree with you. I'm just saying that the sheer barely-disguised nationalistic arrogance that tends to waff over these type of threads is often unbearable, for those of us who see it.

No one is doing that so far.

[GWOtaku]

I'm sorry Larry, but for once I can't agree with you. Many of these demographic problems and the attitudes that cause them do not exist in the United States, and I for one won't be labeled nationalistic or arrogant for considering them undesirable. And I do not believe for a second that any half-serious feminist honestly believes that there is no degree of difference between Japan and the west when it comes to progressive views about gender roles. Yes: there are differences. It's not hubris to say so. It's blindness to say that they don't exist. And the point on the "hypocritical angle" really rings hollow considering that there is no such thing as a society without its share of cultural issues. I take this as little more than a call to never judge anything.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

No one is doing that so far.

You don't have to actually come right out and say "We >>>> Japan feminist-wise" for you "not to be doing it." Avoiding that fact already says tons. Speaking of these issues as if they are Japanese-exclusive (which people here in this thread have done) are already doing that.



I'm sorry Larry, but for once I can't agree with you. Many of these demographic problems and the attitudes that cause them do not exist in the United States, and I for one won't be labeled nationalistic or arrogant for considering them undesirable. And I do not believe for a second that any half-serious feminist honestly believes that there is no degree of difference between Japan and the west when it comes to progressive views about gender roles. Yes: there are differences. It's not hubris to say so. It's blindness to say that they doesn't exist.

YOu don't think so?

Let's use one obvious example--Disney and their "creation" of young girls as young as 14 as budding sex objects to be marketed for cash. Oh sure, they will deny that's their intention at every single turn, and do a pooh-pooh every time their "property" is found in a sexually compromising position in the media (eg. Vanity Fair), but do you really, truly think they never foresaw this happening in the beginning? If you do, you're a lot more innocent than you should be regarding entertainment media politics and marketing.

Toys. Let's use Bratz for example. Do you really think marketing homogenous, surgically-enhanced looking dolls to young girls is progressive? Using sex to imply what young girls should wear, dress and look?

Advertising. Honestly, how many times do you see an ad featuring a "sexy girl" as opposed to a guy, or simply nothing sexual at all? I would venture that the ratio of "sexy girl" ads to everything else is about 10:3. That is objectifying women for a monetary cause.

Comic Books. I don't think we need to go here. This has been discussed before. Suffice to say, this may be one area where Japan actually has a substantial female voice where we do not.

Television. The majority of the TV shows in America RIGHT NOW adhere to patriarchal social values, especially reality shows. The amount of scantily clad female bimbos in relation to "positive" role models is as bad now, if not actually worse than they were 20 years ago. Just flip on an episode of American Idol and The Bachelor. And honestly, which people from those shows eventually end up the most heavily marketed?

And it's getting worse too. I saw a recent statistic somewhere that there has been a substantial rise in young girls worldwide (and especially North America) who are dissatisfied with their appearance simply based on what they see on TV, presuming that is what society expects them to be.

Now GWOtaku, I TOTALLY AGREE that Japan has a history of entrenched gender roles that America didn't have, partially because it's an older country, so many values are far more entrenched. But to say that CURRENTLY, the gap is WIDE, would be an erroneous assumption. The gap may be far slimmer now than you can imagine. Unfortunately much of that is because of social regressions on the part of North America. If you were to state the gap was wide even 15 years ago, you might have a case there.

There are other factors too. I think most of the people here have never actually been to Japan. We only go by anime/manga and maybe the certain smartypants poster will pull out some stats trying to prove a point. I certainly haven't been to Japan, and can only go by people I know who've lived there. I truly doubt most of us really know the salary structure in Japan regarding female occupations. Somehow I think some people still have the impression that most Japanese females spend their days in yukatas and taking their husband's jackets when they come home from work a la some 1950s Ozu film.

The other hypocrisy I'm talking about is that these threads tend to be largely overrun by male opinions on "progressive female values." And I have to admit, with 3 posts in this thread I am now complicit in this trend. Which is why I have tried to largely stay out of "sexism" threads in anime forums because I'm always skeptical of males trying to state their views on how they think females should be portrayed. That in itself is pretty sexist.

But one thing is for sure. If I'm judging Japan by otaku imports, I'm getting a very narrow field of vision indeed.

[soundmonkey44]

Is ALL Merch sexist.. HECK NO.....is some...YES.....Personally I think the ecchi/hentai PVC's and are somewhat sexist.....but then again there products of a perverted Genre, so i guess its a moot point.

But yea the answer for the main question to this topic would be, not all anime merch is sexist towards women, but there is a small chunck that is.:sweat:

[Shawn Hopkins]

You don't have to actually come right out and say "We >>>> Japan feminist-wise" for you "not to be doing it." Avoiding that fact already says tons.




YOu don't think so?

Let's use one obvious example--Disney and their "creation" of young girls as young as 14 as budding sex objects to be marketed for cash. Oh sure, they will deny that's their intention at every single turn, and do a pooh-pooh every time their "property" is found in a sexually compromising position in the media (eg. Vanity Fair), but do you really, truly think they never foresaw this happening in the beginning? If you do, you're a lot more innocent than you should be regarding entertainment media politics and marketing.

Toys. Let's use Bratz for example. Do you really think marketing homogenous, surgically-enhanced looking dolls to young girls is progressive? Using sex to imply what young girls should wear, dress and look?

Advertising. Honestly, how many times do you see an ad featuring a "sexy girl" as opposed to a guy, or simply nothing sexual at all? I would venture that the ratio of "sexy girl" ads to everything else is about 10:3. That is objectifying women for a monetary cause.

Comic Books. I don't think we need to go here. This has been discussed before. Suffice to say, this may be one area where Japan actually has a substantial female voice where we do not.

Television. The majority of the TV shows in America RIGHT NOW adhere to patriarchal social values, especially reality shows. The amount of scantily clad female bimbos in relation to "positive" role models is as bad now, if not actually worse than they were 20 years ago. Just flip on an episode of American Idol and The Bachelor. And honestly, which people from those shows eventually end up the most heavily marketed?

And it's getting worse too. I saw a recent statistic somewhere that there has been a substantial rise in young girls worldwide (and especially North America) who are dissatisfied with their appearance simply based on what they see on TV, presuming that is what society expects them to be.

Now GWOtaku, I TOTALLY AGREE that Japan has a history of entrenched gender roles that America didn't have, partially because it's an older country, so many values are far more entrenched. But to say that CURRENTLY, the gap is WIDE, would be an erroneous assumption. The gap may be far slimmer now than you can imagine. Unfortunately much of that is because of social regressions on the part of North America. If you were to state the gap was wide even 15 years ago, you might have a case there.

There are other factors too. I think most of the people here have never actually been to Japan. We only go by anime/manga and maybe the certain smartypants poster will pull out some stats trying to prove a point. I certainly haven't been to Japan, and can only go by people I know who've lived there. I truly doubt most of us really know the salary structure in Japan regarding female occupations.

But one thing is for sure. If I'm judging Japan by otaku imports, I'm getting a very narrow field of vision indeed.

You're still doing what GWOtaku said. We're all aware that there is sexism in the West, but you can't say that the only way anyone has a right to criticize something is if they come from a country that is perfect. That just stifles all discussion of any issues. We should welcome the viewpoints of outsiders on these issues, by looking at with new eyes they may see things about us we don't and they may see things about them that they don't.

And what I see in Japan is that women just aren't able to rise to the levels of power in business and government that women in the West are. Is there a Japanese equivalent of Hillary Clinton, Sarah Palin, Nancy Pelosi or Meg Whitman? That there aren't active organizations as powerful as NOW. That they seem to be less active in the political process. That the characteristics that are considered "feminine" focus on submissiveness and infantilizing.

[HellCat]

I love how people always pop this topic up at least once every few months, as if implying Japan is a deeply sexist society that us more "civilized" North Americans should be appalled at.


Actually, a key intent for this thread was to take a discussion we've arguably done a few times and tackle it from a hopefully more mature and fair view point. If anything, you could perhaps say this thread is half taking a look at long held foreign fan conceptions and putting those under fire. Likewise, a related launching point for this discussion was that in the past people have said they wished people could hold a show and its merchandise as two seperate entities, not a single entity that one could possibly let down.

Ideally, I'm hopeful we'll be covering fresh ground. Quite a few of the comments so far seem to vindicate that hope :)

[Grenzer]

You knows guys, there seems to be an assumption here that Feminism equals respect for women. It helps, but it's not the only way to promote healthy relations between the sexes. You want to talk about a glaring flaw of Western society, it's our desire to tie all of the good and evil that exists in the World to neat little words and abstract ideologies. Also, we really are just as dysfunctional as the Japanese when it comes to this stuff, just in our own unique way.

To put it bluntly, we are schizophrenic about the role of women in public culture. A woman who steps out of traditional gender roles is slapped around for being "power-hungry" or "slutty" but the girls who try to stay in those roles are told they promoting negative stereotypes and selling themselves short, or even worse, holding the "sisterhood" back with their actions. That sort of pressure is causing a tremendous about of friction between men and women in the U.S. and Europe. I won't even touch what is happening to men, that's another discussion entirely.

The Japanese media on the other hand is just plain dishonest when it comes to portraying women. The various archtypes used to idealize the Japanese woman has been stripped down to their most base elements to appeal to young men with disposable income. As Karl has pointed out, it has created unrealistic expectations for men when searching for a girl to settle down with. The women are not much better. I was reading a story in the NYT about a year back that showed a whole subset of Japanese women who chased after foreigners on the assumption that they were richer than their Japanese counterparts, no more, no less. The recession put an end to that.

We really are on the cusp of a cultural Dark Age, if not caught in the midst of one already. I hate to say that, I get no pleasure from it, but a lot of the unsavory stuff that we are discussing in this thread would seem to support the view that there is a fundmental and dangerous flaw in how the developed nations of the think on issues of life, love, and business.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

You're still doing what GWOtaku said. We're all aware that there is sexism in the West, but you can't say that the only way anyone has a right to criticize something is if they come from a country that is perfect. That just stifles all discussion of any issues. We should welcome the viewpoints of outsiders on these issues, by looking at with new eyes they may see things about us we don't and they may see things about them that they don't.

And what I see in Japan is that women just aren't able to rise to the levels of power in business and government that women in the West are. Is there a Japanese equivalent of Hillary Clinton, Sarah Palin, Nancy Pelosi or Meg Whitman? That there aren't active organizations as powerful as NOW. That they seem to be less active in the political process. That the characteristics that are considered "feminine" focus on submissiveness and infantilizing.

I think now you're being reactionary. None of my earlier posts suggested that we should "stop talking about this" just because talking about it would be "hypocritical." If you can pull out a quote where I said exactly that, then I will accept my error. I said we should be CAREFUL not to be hypocritical about it. There is nothing wrong with saying that in this thread, and while you may perceive it to be redundant, unfortunately most people do devolve into the attitude I delineated earlier. But the last sexism thread in this forum DID NOT END WELL, and quite frankly I found some of the posts in that thread borderline offensive. So I wanted to try to head that off early.


And what I see in Japan is that women just aren't able to rise to the levels of power in business and government that women in the West are. Is there a Japanese equivalent of Hillary Clinton, Sarah Palin, Nancy Pelosi or Meg Whitman? That there aren't active organizations as powerful as NOW. That they seem to be less active in the political process. That the characteristics that are considered "feminine" focus on submissiveness and infantilizing.

I would argue that your inclusion of Sarah Palin sort of dampens your point in it, because many of the reasons she became as noted a figure as she is is the exact opposite of the "progressive" qualities you're talking about.

As for Japanese politics in particular, who knows? Who knows if there aren't women in prominent leadership positions in Japan? You might say, "well, I don't see them" but then again of course you don't! America is a world superpower that throws their figureheads on TV all over the world while Japan is still some little island in the East that cranks out faulty cars ;) and weird robots. How many people in this thread know anyone outside of the Japanese prime minister? How many people here even KNOW the Japanese prime minister?

Living in Canada, I can tell you that I see very few women in politics today. The ones that do eventually stand out become sort of a "joke" in the media, who largely focus on their personal life and looks. Few women here ever rise above being an MP. Heck, in the recent federal election, the leader of one of the parties here didn't even win in her own riding!

See, I like Grenzer's post above because it avoided all the things I'm talking about. I have no problem with that kind of discourse, which is even handed, intelligent, and non-reactionary.

With that said, I'll end my contribution to this thread here, because as I said before, I try to avoid these things. And by posting several posts, I'm already a hypocrite. ;)

[HellCat]

Whilst it's all very well thought out and articulated thought provoking stuff, I'm a bit worried that some are missing the point of this discussion. I don't want to stop a naturally evolving discussion but I'm worried we've moved away from the stated question into a more general 'Is Japan sexist to females?' one.

[Grenzer]

Well there are a large number of Japanese women in politics. There has been no female Prime Minister yet, but there have been a number of women in the cabinets of male Prime Ministers. Pretty much the same situation you would find in most Western nations, including the U.S.

Look for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Diet_of_Japan

Women made up more than 16.5% of the House of Councillors (Senate) in 2008. A clear imbalance exists, but at same time Japanese voters are clearly willing to elect candidates who they feel are qualified, regardless of gender.

[GWOtaku]

On-topic response first.


The other hypocrisy I'm talking about is that these threads tend to be largely overrun by male opinions on "progressive female values." And I have to admit, with 3 posts in this thread I am now complicit in this trend. Which is why I have tried to largely stay out of "sexism" threads in anime forums because I'm always skeptical of males trying to state their views on how they think females should be portrayed. That in itself is pretty sexist.
You knows guys, there seems to be an assumption here that Feminism equals respect for women. It helps, but it's not the only way to promote healthy relations between the sexes....

...To put it bluntly, we are schizophrenic about the role of women in public culture. A woman who steps out of traditional gender roles is slapped around for being "power-hungry" or "slutty" but the girls who try to stay in those roles are told they promoting negative stereotypes and selling themselves short, or even worse, holding the "sisterhood" back with their actions. That sort of pressure is causing a tremendous about of friction between men and women in the U.S. and Europe. I won't even touch what is happening to men, that's another discussion entirely.


I think this is all too stereotypical. Firstly I think it's foolish to shut men out of the discussion since quite frankly, if half of the human population can't discuss something then odds are nothing much about it is going to change. I don't discount the problem of creating a catch-22 cultural standard for women, there are conflicting perspectives about it so mixed messages get sent. But my philosophy is very simple, namely that it's about being free to handle your life the way that you want to. It's the simple idea of being traditional or otherwise because it's what you want for your life, not because it's what you have to do. Men don't decide, I don't decide, feminists don't decide. It's simple freedom, nothing more than that. To the extent that popular culture (including merchandise) reinforces the idea that no such choice exists, it's a message that should be resisted.




YOu don't think so?

Let's use one obvious example--Disney and their "creation" of young girls as young as 14 as budding sex objects to be marketed for cash.
(this is kinda OT, fellow TZ denizens, so skip if you don't care)
I think you need a better obvious example. Am I to believe, for instance, that Lindsay Lohan is Disney's fault? I submit that Lindsay Lohan is Lindsay Lohan's fault. Yes, too many of us obsess over celebrities and an incredible portion of our entertainment industry is superficial and cynical. I won't even get started on my undying, eternal hatred for reality television. But you know what: some people handle fame with grace and class, others let it twist them into something borderline pathetic if not well beyond that point. I think that's the reality, not that a Disney channel show targeted to tween girls is ultimately a vehicle for something else.

My off-topic indulgence aside, you don't need to cite the sexist elements of our entertainment industry to me. I know that they exist and that at their worst, they are just as objectifying as anything that Japan does. I could throw together my own list for good measure. Now, while I do think there are different attitudes and taboos when it comes to sex and other things, I also completely agree with your ending statement that says "But one thing is for sure. If I'm judging Japan by otaku imports, I'm getting a very narrow field of vision indeed." Sure, I'm with you there. It'd be foolish to judge Japan by the little slices of popular culture that get exposed in the U.S. Many of us would scoff at attempts to use them to overhype Japan, so the opposite extreme is just as inappropriate.

That being said, I don't attribute that extreme to Karl or HC or anybody else. The issues Karl talks about certainly aren't limited to isolated outlier polls. I do think that while it can be perilous to dig up some statistics and end up believing you're an armchair sociology expert, it's still hard to escape the fact that Japan's problems are making its population shrink. Indeed, the Japanese Government itself recognizes the problem.


Somehow I think some people still have the impression that most Japanese females spend their days in yukatas and taking their husband's jackets when they come home from work a la some 1950s Ozu film.Heavens no, certainly not. Believing that would indeed be absurd.

[Anyone00]

Looks at the Sheryle Nome figure: oh you're kidding.

I'm sorry there's something I can't let go but when ever Japanese population dynamics come up there a bunch of "sexual repression", 'not socially progressive enough', and 'lack of feminism' arguments. What about Western Europe? I mean there's this entire population group that significantly less "sexual repressed", more "socially progressive", and more "feminist" that's in rapid population decline (not at Japanese levels but close); and then there's this group that's far, far more "sexual repressed", less "socially progressive", and less "feminist" that population is on the rise. I know all three groups have different histories and you see things differently. So how do you see things differently and how does these views of the two sets of population dynamics square?

[Shawn Hopkins]

Looks at the Sheryle Nome figure: oh you're kidding.

I'm sorry there's something I can't let go but when ever Japanese population dynamics come up there a bunch of "sexual repression", 'not socially progressive enough', and 'lack of feminism' arguments. What about Western Europe? I mean there's this entire population group that significantly less "sexual repressed", more "socially progressive", and more "feminist" that's in rapid population decline (not at Japanese levels but close); and then there's this group that's far, far more "sexual repressed", less "socially progressive", and less "feminist" that population is on the rise. I know all three groups have different histories and you see things differently. So how do you see things differently and how does these views of the two sets of population dynamics square?

Poverty and religion are also major factors. Poor people, and people who suffer under, uh, I mean follow, yeah, follow, anti-contraceptive religious doctrines, simply breed more and have larger families. There are various reasons such as the traditional need to having more kids to do agrarian and other work and to support the parents when they get old in societies with no social safety net and just because they don't have access to contraception for various reasons including religious prohibition.

Wealthier people have less kids because they have no need for larger families and do have access to contraception and are more likely to use it even if their religion forbids it.

The sexual problems in Japan do seem to be making the problem worse, though. They'll eventually have to allow more poor immigrants in to keep up their numbers.

[Samurai]

Hmmm, I'm going to chime in with my own 2 cents. I've been to Japan before, and for anyone who thinks Japanese women are "docile/subservient" or are neutered or whatever, that is simply not true. Japanese women really act no different from women anywhere else; there's plenty of strong-minded Japanese women who voice their opinions & quite strongly at that.

And from what I saw, this so-called "sexism" on the part of Japanese males doesn't seem to be any different from the "sexism" I see from human males anywhere else on this planet. Let's dispense with the PC nature and be blunt about it: For any heterosexual male, what they want is sex from women. Pure & simple. This is just basic biological nature, human beings are still primates afterall, that's why they call the human race homo sapiens. In evolutionary terms, a human male trying to get "some" is really no different from a chimpanzee or gorilla male trying to woo a female chimp or gorilla (just more elaborate for humans).

And the struggle for Japanese men to get "some" is the same struggle that any male will have to get some from the opposite gender. A Japanese guy trying to hit on a chick is really no different from any other guy trying to hit on a chick. Now perhaps there's a lot of bitter Japanese males who are struggling to get any from Japanese women, and perhaps they take out their sexual frustration by retreating to otaku habits. But really now, I've seen plenty of sexually frustrated males everywhere who are bitter about women from past relationships/divorce that ended badly. The only difference is there's that small segment of the Japanese nerd male population that likes to look at anime babes as a substitute for their sexual frustration... whereas for every other male on the planet, they just look at porn or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. So let's stop this BS talk about Japanese men/women as if they're so different from men/women anywhere else. Perhaps there's some truth to the statement that Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus...

[Sparticus]

*points up* What Samurai said.

I see the fetish toys as just pandering to a particular crowd. Nothing wrong with that. Well, from a business standpoint. :p

Besides, all of you guys are ignoring the massive, throbbing purple beast in the room known as Yaoi. :evil:

[Grenzer]

Poverty and religion are also major factors. Poor people, and people who suffer under, uh, I mean follow, yeah, follow, anti-contraceptive religious doctrines, simply breed more and have larger families. There are various reasons such as the traditional need to having more kids to do agrarian and other work and to support the parents when they get old in societies with no social safety net and just because they don't have access to contraception for various reasons including religious prohibition.

Wealthier people have less kids because they have no need for larger families and do have access to contraception and are more likely to use it even if their religion forbids it.

The sexual problems in Japan do seem to be making the problem worse, though. They'll eventually have to allow more poor immigrants in to keep up their numbers.

You can't solve all your problems by inviting other people to pick up the slack for you. Japan is overcrowded anyway, and has been for over a century. Indeed, much of the militarism that infected the country before WWII was justifed by the Army and Navy under the doctrine that unless more land was secured for the nation, it's people would suffer. The proliferation of skyscrapers after the war helped to take some of that pressure off, but the most optimal population for the islands would be about 70 million, compared to the 127 million who live there now. For all we know the reduced birth rates are some sort of underlying psychological reaction to overpopulation, with the damaged gender relations being a symptom of that.

[Baseball]

Hmmm, I'm going to chime in with my own 2 cents. I've been to Japan before, and for anyone who thinks Japanese women are "docile/subservient" or are neutered or whatever, that is simply not true. Japanese women really act no different from women anywhere else; there's plenty of strong-minded Japanese women who voice their opinions & quite strongly at that.

And from what I saw, this so-called "sexism" on the part of Japanese males doesn't seem to be any different from the "sexism" I see from human males anywhere else on this planet. Let's dispense with the PC nature and be blunt about it: For any heterosexual male, what they want is sex from women. Pure & simple. This is just basic biological nature, human beings are still primates afterall, that's why they call the human race homo sapiens. In evolutionary terms, a human male trying to get "some" is really no different from a chimpanzee or gorilla male trying to woo a female chimp or gorilla (just more elaborate for humans).

And the struggle for Japanese men to get "some" is the same struggle that any male will have to get some from the opposite gender. A Japanese guy trying to hit on a chick is really no different from any other guy trying to hit on a chick. Now perhaps there's a lot of bitter Japanese males who are struggling to get any from Japanese women, and perhaps they take out their sexual frustration by retreating to otaku habits. But really now, I've seen plenty of sexually frustrated males everywhere who are bitter about women from past relationships/divorce that ended badly. The only difference is there's that small segment of the Japanese nerd male population that likes to look at anime babes as a substitute for their sexual frustration... whereas for every other male on the planet, they just look at porn or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. So let's stop this BS talk about Japanese men/women as if they're so different from men/women anywhere else. Perhaps there's some truth to the statement that Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus...
Except we're talking about otaku products based off cartoons that literally objectify women. Sure, that occurs worldwide--but in terms of children's media? I mean, come on. One Piece boob mousepads? Giant moe body pillows to cuddle with? There's a huge difference.

[HellCat]

Except we're talking about otaku products based off cartoons that literally objectify women. Sure, that occurs worldwide--but in terms of children's media? I mean, come on. One Piece boob mousepads? Giant moe body pillows to cuddle with? There's a huge difference.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree but to everyone- more of this focus please. Again, people are posting some very deep thoughts, but it's ignoring the question I put forward and going into debating sexism in general. As was said, we've already had that debate many times.

[Karl Olson]

Well, stripped of the larger debate then, and back on topic, we're left with the fact that yeah, the main target demo for any of these sexy anime figures or what have is a male audience. It's cut and dry objectification, and thus probably has atleast a somewhat sexist intent. It's compounded by the fact that it's not like fujoshi really get their due outside of doujinshi. There aren't even a whole of lot of garage kits of bishonen, let alone mainstream figure releases.

[firefoxprime]

Except we're talking about otaku products based off cartoons that literally objectify women. Sure, that occurs worldwide--but in terms of children's media? I mean, come on. One Piece boob mousepads? Giant moe body pillows to cuddle with? There's a huge difference.


"children's media".

I believe you've unfortuately fallen into the american mentallity that animated series, weither american or japanese, shoot. even canadian, is "children's media" aka. kiddie stuff.

Not to say that there aren't any animated series with a childbased demographic, but to use "One Piece" to press your point, is really ill choiced.

maybe your first impression of One Piece was on that *shivers* 4kids dub.
if so i'll cut you some slack.

do you know why so many anime fans get angry when people call their anime a "cartoon"?

because of how america looks at animation. that its "kiddie" which therefore results to lack of respect by most adults/older teens.

its like saying dbz is children's media. maybe in america, but you listen to those original dbz subs and see(lol read) how many times vegeta curses at his enemies, you'll get the jist.




"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

[Karl Olson]

One Piece main audience in Japan is children though. That's not debate, that's fact due to the timeslots it runs in, and the magazine it's serialized in Japan. Yes, adult otaku also enjoy it, and yes even some non-otaku teens and adults read Shonen Jump, but the main audience is kids.

[MonkeyFunk]

God, I'd be embarrassed to have that girl-and-bullet thingamajig in my house. I was coy enough as it is buying Ghost in the Shell on DVD.


its like saying dbz is children's media. maybe in america, but you listen to those original dbz subs and see(lol read) how many times vegeta curses at his enemies, you'll get the jist.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

But... Harry Potter has swearing in it too.

[chdr]

"children's media".

I believe you've unfortuately fallen into the american mentallity that animated series, weither american or japanese, shoot. even canadian, is "children's media" aka. kiddie stuff.

Not to say that there aren't any animated series with a childbased demographic, but to use "One Piece" to press your point, is really ill choiced.

maybe your first impression of One Piece was on that *shivers* 4kids dub.
if so i'll cut you some slack.

do you know why so many anime fans get angry when people call their anime a "cartoon"?

because of how america looks at animation. that its "kiddie" which therefore results to lack of respect by most adults/older teens.

its like saying dbz is children's media. maybe in america, but you listen to those original dbz subs and see(lol read) how many times vegeta curses at his enemies, you'll get the jist.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."No, not really.

In Japan, One Piece, DBZ, Bleach, and other shows for "adults" are literally made for and watched by children. If anything, America looks at anime in the other direction: super "mature" shows for adults because they contain swearing (a lot of it added in by fansubbers) and violence.

[Baseball]

"children's media".

I believe you've unfortuately fallen into the american mentallity that animated series, weither american or japanese, shoot. even canadian, is "children's media" aka. kiddie stuff.

Not to say that there aren't any animated series with a childbased demographic, but to use "One Piece" to press your point, is really ill choiced.

maybe your first impression of One Piece was on that *shivers* 4kids dub.
if so i'll cut you some slack.

do you know why so many anime fans get angry when people call their anime a "cartoon"?

because of how america looks at animation. that its "kiddie" which therefore results to lack of respect by most adults/older teens.

its like saying dbz is children's media. maybe in america, but you listen to those original dbz subs and see(lol read) how many times vegeta curses at his enemies, you'll get the jist.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."
Hahaha, whoa, you're calling me ignorant? The fact of the matter is, no matter what content you see in them, Dragon Ball and One Piece are both shows made for kids. The broadcasting standards are much more lax in Japan than they are in America. One Piece runs in a magazine called Shonen Jump. By definition it's directed towards pre-teens. It comes on TV on Sunday mornings in Japan.

And secondly, you're really pushing it with "anime" just isn't a "cartoon." You've fallen into the mentality that because it's animated in Japan and a lot of the media specifically isn't for children, it's not a cartoon. Because of its artistic integrity, it's not a cartoon. But regardless of name, they're all essentially the same thing: animated drawings. Anime are Japanese cartoons. It isn't a negative term; it's a classification.

As far as "swearing" goes, there are some coarse terms in Japanese that are misconstrued as swearing overseas. The difference is that in Japan, you're not going to get your mouth smacked for saying 「畜生」 or 「くそ」 in the home--as long as it isn't a formal setting. Plus, it's not like those words are censored in any type of Japanese media anyways. There are words with much higher degrees of intensity that aren't present in shows made for kids like Dragon Ball.

[HellCat]

I think one factor which kind of falls into the middle is that alot of these shows will have young people who are starting puberty in their audience and we all know the cliche of raging hormones and crushes. It wouldn't suprise me if there are young men in Japan who had their first 'crushes' on the likes of Nami or Sakura and so they'd be interested in bits of fanservice in that regard. That's always the danger when you discuss sexual awareness, that people either shift to the extreme that having an interest either makes you a closet pervert or an open 'sicko'. When done in good taste, I don't think anyone can fault a bit of fanservice. I'm certainly not crying 'sexist!' when the fangirls I know show me some poster they have of a male character posing and such. But I do think there's something of a questionable limit on both sides (for instance, I'm not sure why trading figures in full clothing apparently need fully sculpted/painted underwear that you'd need to awkwardly take chunks of 'clothing' off to even see).

[Andrew T. Hingson]

Not to say that there aren't any animated series with a childbased demographic, but to use "One Piece" to press your point, is really ill choiced.


While One Piece has some questionable content in it by US standards it's very much a kids show in Japan or at least a "family show" and plenty suitable for the 9-14 crowd all things considered. Edited anyway, and that's the only way TOEI wants it shown in the US because they intend to market it as a youth property which is exactly how it should be. Though now that CN will play shows with PG ratings they could potentially play the majority of it uncut if it ever came back to the air. Sadly, I don't forsee that happening.



do you know why so many anime fans get angry when people call their anime a "cartoon"?

Because they're insecure in their enjoyment of animation and are quite possibly Japanophiles. But we all know anime is just cartoons from Japan. Nothing more and nothing less.



its like saying dbz is children's media. maybe in america, but you listen to those original dbz subs and see(lol read) how many times vegeta curses at his enemies, you'll get the jist.

Well according to our standards swearing equates to "mature content" but I don't know about you... I find swearing to be rather immature along with many of the "mature" comedies on television today but that's for another post. Dragon Ball had nudity in Japan certainly in the manga as well as swearing and some other "taboo" things from a western audience stand point.

However it has always been and will always be a youth property in Japan and anywhere else in the world even when it airs uncut. Shoot, Dragon Ball Kai even has added censorship so TOEI could still market it to that same youth audience. The reason why it had that content before was that was okay in Japan in the pre-Evangelion days. Ever seen Fist of the North Star? Back in the day that's what passed for a "kid safe" in Japan. I know it's hillarious when you think about it.


"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

Too easy

Hmm I got a bit side-tracked... but back to the original topic.

Japan as a society is rather sexist as far as I gather, even today and these items are designed for horny fans for the most part. So yeah... they're pretty sexist. I mean... I have a hard time believing any woman would consider breast mouse pads and body pillows to be "empowering" for the fairer sex.

[KPTitan]

do you know why so many anime fans get angry when people call their anime a "cartoon"?

And, to be honest, I'll never understand why this is... and IMO, it's ridiculous to get worked up over such a matter in the first place.

I've said this so many times that I've lost count: anime is essentially a cartoon, but it's from a different country and it's a different style of a cartoon. The excuse that "anime is superior because it's art, while cartoons are not" is also ridiculous, because both anime and cartoons fall under the category "animation", which is a form of art. Don't believe me? Take a tour of some colleges and classes dealing with art and animation, they'll tell you that.

[firefoxprime]

And, to be honest, I'll never understand why this is... and IMO, it's ridiculous to get worked up over such a matter in the first place.

I've said this so many times that I've lost count: anime is essentially a cartoon, but it's from a different country and it's a different style of a cartoon. The excuse that "anime is superior because it's art, while cartoons are not" is also ridiculous, because both anime and cartoons fall under the category "animation", which is a form of art. Don't believe me? Take a tour of some colleges and classes dealing with art and animation, they'll tell you that.


yup. i agree with you there.

"anime is superior because it's art, while cartoons are not"
that was clearly an example you placed in your post, right?
ok.


for me, anime is just as it is. a cartoon. so we're on the same page there.

i know alot of anime fans that go crazy and/or freak out when anime is called a "cartoon". which it is of course.

the clear reason is because of how "cartoons" are treated and looked down upon in america. that's it.

as i've said before, most people believe cartoons are just for kids.

are they? pff...of course not. now if your an older teen/young adult, and your enjoying for example ben10AF, people will criticize you for watch a "kids show" and your scrutinized for enjoying something your into.

should you care?

No. but not everyone can pull off an "I dont care attitude."

that's all i'm saying.

so its not that hardcore animefans are thickheaded, and are to stubborn to believe the truth that anime= cartoons....

its the criticism and the scrutiniy that comes with it. to have to justify why you like something to people; to some people reading this post may find that...unecessary. but there are some situations where you just wont be able to clearly explain why what your doing isnt lame. those anime fans are just trying to avoid the peer pressure thats shoved in their face everytime they try to enjoy their fun. of course that comes with everything basically. there's always going to be some who thinks what you do is lame. i say look'em in the eye...ground your stance, and do what sketch does.

key notes:

- anime fans aren't thickheaded/stubborn.
- some anime fans try to avoid american
terms "comics/cartoons" with "manga/anime", to prevent
negative criticism from people. which really makes things
worse.
- most adults look down on people who like to watch
cartoons.
- anime is in fact a cartoon.




and to actually get back on topic, the term "sex sells" is 100% true.
women are just better at selling products than men are. a half naked girl can sell
a product way better than a guy. why? guys will be attracted to her. and the women
will want the attention the half naked girl is recieving from the guys and admire her.
vice versa?
ugh...not as much. but i'd appreciate it if you had a nice counter for this opinion.
all about education each other. :^)

[Andrew T. Hingson]

- anime fans aren't thickheaded/stubborn.


It would be a generalization to say that all of them are thickheaded but not unreasonable to conclude that some of them are... and they're rather vocal.



- most adults look down on people who like to watch
cartoons.


Well... unless they're FOX comedies, South Park or Adult Swim comedies anyway. Though this is slowly but surely changing in light of more middle ground and adult animation being produced and accepted by the populace as a whole. Granted we're nowhere near that of some other countries but hey we're get'n there.

[firefoxprime]

It would be a generalization to say that all of them are thickheaded but not unreasonable to conclude that some of them are... and they're rather vocal.



Well... unless they're FOX comedies, South Park or Adult Swim comedies anyway. Though this is slowly but surely changing in light of more middle ground and adult animation being produced and accepted by the populace as a whole. Granted we're nowhere near that of some other countries but hey we're get'n there.


exactly. of course i never really watch adult swim that much growing up.

i remember comin back home from a party (age 13) and flippin on to see whats airing on CN. and then just in time, i see this now old bumper of old people swimming in a pool...

called "adult swim".

i was in tears.
hehe...

anyways this country is only 300yrs "young". everyone else is was older, and as you say "we're gettin there"