"No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Eddy]

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6233/nomoreheroes2desperatesl.jpg


No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle
Platform: Wii
Publisher: Ubisoft
Release Date: January 26th, 2010

This amazing little game has been out for a couple of days now but I notice there's no talkback thread to be seen for it. So I thought I'd take it upon myself to put one up.

I haven't beaten it yet but, even so, this game is amazing. The problems people had with the first game are gone and it just seems like everything about it is better. My only real problem with the game so far is the assassins you fight aren't as memorable as the assassins from the original game, save for a few, but the story this time around seems to be more about Travis rather than the assassins he's fighting. I'm currently ranked number five and from what I've heard the last few ranked missions have the best assassins in the game.

My favorites so far would probably be...
The return of Letz Shake and NewDestroyman.

Shinobu is awesome. I actually wish we got to play as her a little longer. And the 8-bit side jobs? I love them. So much better than the side jobs from the first game. Not to mention they have a very retro soundtrack to them.

I'll probably give more thoughts once I finish the game. Don't pass this one up, guys!

[Desensitized]

Man, everything I've heard about this has been great. That it's improved upon the original in every way, and that it's one of the best games on the Wii.

Too bad it came out the same day as TvC and ME2. It's gonna get overshadowed.

[Mynd Hed]

In the second(!) boss fight of the game Travis busts out a giant mecha. Because a football player had already done so. And he (Travis) says that he "had a feeling something like this might happen." And that's the moment when I became sold on this game, as if I wasn't already. It's everything that was great about the first game, only more so.

I do sort of wish that they'd actually made the open-world elements good as opposed to just nixing them altogether, but oh well, whatever.

The side-job minigames are a lot more fun this time around, and it's nice that you don't need to grind for cash before taking on the next ranked battle, making them technically optional.

[Psychopulse]

I just beat it yesterday. :D

The Good:

Duel-wielding beam katanas is pure win.
Hyper Slash mode is awesome, which is good because we know how random and unreliable the slot machine is.
No more driving around in the overworld. It got a little tedious after a while even with the extra stuff (Finding shirts and dumpsters and those Lovikov balls).
Playing as Shinobu. Nuff said. :D
No more free fight missions (Where you defeat all enemies without taking a hit). The later ones were impossible to a point where I gave up on them altogether.
No more grinding for ranked battles.

Mixed Bag:

The part time jobs. I didn't find the ones from the first game that bad, and while the 2-D ones are fun, I've found Travis getting stuck to corners at times in the top-down games. The scorpion killing job is the only one that's 3-D, oddly enough. My favorite side jobs are the bug extermination and the steak cooking ones.

Interacting with Jeane the cat to make her lose weight. It's fun, but once you get her down to her ideal weight, you can't play with her anymore. They should at least let you cuddle with her from time to time like in the original.

The Bad (Spoilers Ahead):

You don't play as Henry for a long amount of time. Just a fight against one boss in a dream, and he doesn't even tell you how he killed them all so you could get the 5th rank. And while we're at it, why was I 7th, then when Henry kills 3 assassins, after I'm now 5th? Wouldn't that make me the 4th ranked assassin in the UAA (Unless someone was challenging me for my rank)?

The training mini games are crappy. The treadmill one is okay, but the one where you punch dumbbells and dodge the trainers kisses was annoying. The last dumbbell punching one drove me mad in particular, forcing me to grind some part time jobs for cash until I finally got it.

Like in the last game, I found myself using the last beam katana (The dual-wielding one) and didn't use any of the others for the rest of the game.

No more assassination missions. Yeah, there's the revenge missions, but those weren't as fun.

The giant mecha fight wasn't as good as I thought it would be. It's mostly attack, dodge, jump kick him when he blocks, then use your special attack when the meter is full, repeat.

Some fights leading up to the ranked assassins were either too short or longer then they needed to be. I remember on the way to the rank #4, I spent maybe 10-15 minutes fighting off enemies, with me thinking, "How long is this going to take? It didn't help that there was no music, which made the experience boring.

The #1 ranked fight was a joke. The first and third forms were easy. Only the second form gave me problems due to him teleporting and hitting me so freaking much. Many of them aren't as memorable unlike in the first game.

The ending was somewhat abrupt. After killing Jasper Batt Jr., the #1 assassin, he falls and Sylvia catches him on his bike, then she drives back to the hotel and drops him off. No epic fight with Henry, and I don't know if Shinobu still lives. And then there's that girl that challenged Travis for his rank, she survives, but you never her from her again. All you see is Travis telling Sylvia "Santa Destroy needs us" and they leave.

The first one brought home a gold. This gets a silver, at best. I just expected better...

[Juu-kuchi]

In the second(!) boss fight of the game Travis busts out a giant mecha. Because a football player had already done so. And he (Travis) says that he "had a feeling something like this might happen." And that's the moment when I became sold on this game, as if I wasn't already. It's everything that was great about the first game, only more so. Yeah, I just got finished with that match.

...Did I get laid or something?

[TacoHunter]

Just beat the game. I'm a bit disappointed. But I might just need to let the ending sit and digest it a little.

And what the hell is up with Henry only being playable for 1 fight? Shinobu and Henry should be unlocked for the whole story mission after you beat the game or something. Only 3 short missions between the 2 of them isn't enough.

The game doesn't feel as artsy as the first one did.

And we didn't see the classic Suda51 boss fight that's not really a boss fight.

This title doesn't feel as experimental as the first one did. And that's what really gave No More Heroes its charm. It wasn't afraid of breaking the rules and defying normal game conventions. NMH2 seems almost like a paint by numbers clone of NMH1 just without all the little wacky things that made NMH1 so charming.

I'm not trying to say NMH2 isn't a good game. 'Cause it is a REALLY good game. It plays well, and streamlines the game so it doesn't feel as monotonous as the first one. Its just that NMH1 wasn't afraid of breaking the rules.

Also, one of the awesome things about NMH1 was that it knew it was a parody of these kind of pretentious story telling like in most games or anime. And at the end they just start to throw all kinds of cliché or really odd plot twists at you. NMH2 has no plot twists. The plot is pretentious, but it doesn't feel like a parody anymore. And I feel that hurts the game.

But the game is still fun enough for me to recommend everyone to go out and buy it. The minigames alone are a ton of fun and make the game amazing.

[Juu-kuchi]

I think most of it has to do with a self-conscious aspect of Suda 51 and crew. With No More Heroes, a game that nobody was expecting or heard of, he probably said to his team to just do the game the way WE want to do it or what have you, and if there's a sequel take note of what can we do right. But then again, a sequel of a good game brings with it scrutiny, and therefore a sense of seriousness from Suda and crew to not only top the first game, but to amp things up a little.

That said, like you, I'm enjoying the game. Camera controls though are still wonky, never mind that you still go slot machine berserk the moment where there are little enemies in the room. Then of course is the treadmill game. Unlike you guys, I found the Muscle mini-game relatively easy in some sense, as it is mostly hand-eye coordination. The treadmill game though... No matter how hard I try to alternate the buttons I'm always fail on it. I just need a good strategy. ><

[Eddy]

I'm currently at the final boss and...
I hate it. Seriously, screw this guy. There's challenging and then there's just plain cheap. This guy, with his teleporting punch and instant window kills, is just plain cheap. Getting him down to one pixel of health and dying is the most frustrating thing in the world. I have to give up and come back later because it's frustrating me way too much to focus on fighting him.
Other than that, the game is great.

[TacoHunter]

So I've let the ending sit so I could think about it a little. And No More Heroes 2 isn't as good as the first one.

I went back and played the first one a little just to get a feel for it. And its just insane. Its bat crap crazy. Its just nuts. You pick up luchador masks to get notes from them where they just talk about crazy things. You get cell phone calls from Silvia where she gives you a little pep talk and tells you your going to die in the next fight. You don't get the video store calling Travis about his weird porn or how he records over their videos or just all the crazyness that is Travis. The first game is just pure insanity.

NMH2, none of that. It feels really sane. Sure you'll have to fight a football player in a giant robot, but that doesn't feel crazy. It just feels like wackyness.

NMH1 felt kind of real, in a crazy kind of way. NMH2 just feels like its trying to be crazy, but just comes off wacky. NMH2 doesn't feel like it could be real.

And also, NMH2 is less violent. I thought I might be desensitized. But aside from Skelter Helter there really wasn't that much blood after I finished off bosses. Not like when I killed Death Metal or Destroyman in the first game and they were like a firehose of blood. And when I finished off most trash enemies, I'd always cut them in half followed by a lot of blood and money spraying everywhere.

Good games don't need this kind of over the top ultra violence. But it was kind of what helped give NMH1 some of its charm.

Also, when watching the E3 trailer for NMH2, I noticed that Suda 51 was not the game director, but that he was the Executive Director. Which explains a lot. He basically had a lot less input on NMH2. That's why we don't see all the crazyness like in normal Suda games, like Killer 7 or NMH1, like boss fights that are not boss fights, or all those weird little things that help flesh out his world. Like little notes from dead people.

So yeah, I'm disappointed. And I know why. People say its because the bosses have less character, and that's only one of the things, but there is so much more missing.

[Psychopulse]

So I've let the ending sit so I could think about it a little. And No More Heroes 2 isn't as good as the first one.

I went back and played the first one a little just to get a feel for it. And its just insane. Its bat crap crazy. Its just nuts. You pick up luchador masks to get notes from them where they just talk about crazy things. You get cell phone calls from Silvia where she gives you a little pep talk and tells you your going to die in the next fight. You don't get the video store calling Travis about his weird porn or how he records over their videos or just all the crazyness that is Travis. The first game is just pure insanity.

NMH2, none of that. It feels really sane. Sure you'll have to fight a football player in a giant robot, but that doesn't feel crazy. It just feels like wackyness.

NMH1 felt kind of real, in a crazy kind of way. NMH2 just feels like its trying to be crazy, but just comes off wacky. NMH2 doesn't feel like it could be real.

And also, NMH2 is less violent. I thought I might be desensitized. But aside from Skelter Helter there really wasn't that much blood after I finished off bosses. Not like when I killed Death Metal or Destroyman in the first game and they were like a firehose of blood. And when I finished off most trash enemies, I'd always cut them in half followed by a lot of blood and money spraying everywhere.

Good games don't need this kind of over the top ultra violence. But it was kind of what helped give NMH1 some of its charm.

Also, when watching the E3 trailer for NMH2, I noticed that Suda 51 was not the game director, but that he was the Executive Director. Which explains a lot. He basically had a lot less input on NMH2. That's why we don't see all the crazyness like in normal Suda games, like Killer 7 or NMH1, like boss fights that are not boss fights, or all those weird little things that help flesh out his world. Like little notes from dead people.

So yeah, I'm disappointed. And I know why. People say its because the bosses have less character, and that's only one of the things, but there is so much more missing.

You're not the only one who feels this way.

[FightingDreamer]

The only problem I've had so far is that they changed the recharge motion to waggling the Wiimote from side-to-side, which annoys me because that's a harder thing to do effectively when surrounded by enemies than just, uh, jerking it. Otherwise, I wouldn't say it's better than the first game, but it's definitely a treat.

[Juu-kuchi]

Note to Suda 51: If you can't create decent jumping gameplay, don't add it in your games at all. Lord knows how many times I've fallen with Shinobu on her mini-arc.

Also, the fight with Motorcycle Japan Guy is irksome. No foreplay but we head right into the fight, not to mention that he's frustratingly hard as crap.

[Eddy]

Also, the fight with Motorcycle Japan Guy is irksome. No foreplay but we head right into the fight, not to mention that he's frustratingly hard as crap.
I had trouble with this guy too, but he's not as hard once you figure out the best way to beat him. Basically, spend the entire fight running away from him. When he does the dash attack, just keep running. He'll miss and this give you the chance to run in an attack him. When he summons the dragon, keep a lock on him so you'll block the dragon. Try to avoid the dragon all together though as it really drains your battery.
Yeah, he's a pain in the ass, but once you get this down the fight isn't nearly as bad. It's just kind of tedious.

[BigLouMan20]

The only problem I've had so far is that they changed the recharge motion to waggling the Wiimote from side-to-side, which annoys me because that's a harder thing to do effectively when surrounded by enemies than just, uh, jerking it.

I still do the "regular motion" for the recharge and it works pretty fast for me. Man I feel dirty typing that.:shrug:

[Eddy]

Destructoid wrote up an article taking a deeper look at the game's bosses. (http://www.destructoid.com/analyzing-no-more-heroes-2-part-1-the-bosses-162748.phtml) This actually makes me appreciate them a lot more. They aren't as uninteresting as they first appear when you really start thinking about it.

I hope they do a write up analyzing the rest of the assassins.

[Neo Yi]

So I've just started and only defeated the first two bosses. I have nothing to say right now (too early in the game) except the mini-games are fiendishly addictive (the charming 8-bit graphics help). Most importantly, my little sister enjoyed them which says a lot to me since she isn't much of a gamer like I am. So while she may not care for the main gameplay, she can always help me figure out the "Lay the Pipe" puzzle mini-game. I'm glad for the small diversity and breaks you are given when you don't feel like killing baddies upon baddies and unlike the first, most of them are thoroughly enjoyable.

The only major complaint I have with a couple (I only have four mini-games, so I have no idea if I'll change my mind) is that the controls a bit loose. When I want Travis to face a left, he faces up. When I want to go right, he goes left - resulting in death. Although maybe it's because I'm not using the directional pad (which seems to be the appropriate choice given the context matter).

[Mynd Hed]

That Destructoid article is really cool. Had to stop reading halfway through because I'm not done with the game yet, but I'll have to go back and read the rest when I am.

[Psychopulse]

Nice read. That Destructoid article reminds me of another article I found on the internet on the First No More Heroes:

http://schlaghund.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/no-more-heroes-is-not-punk/

For the sake of staying on topic, though...

Ryuji (That Ninja on the motorcycle) was annoying, too. The first time I foolishly drove off the cliff. :sweat: And then I had trouble trying to knock him off.

Just wait until you face the second form of the final boss, though...

[Mynd Hed]

That article Psychopulse linked to is quite an interesting read as well. Sometimes I think the author is reading a little too far into it, but still, a good read. To expand on what he said about Henry, though, I'd have to say that if anything, in the first game Henry serves as an indictment of story in games. He's only too willing to point out that he fits the well-worn trope of "the cool, handsome foil who just happens to be your brother." And the last-minute plot twists that he serves up are so unnecessary and so ludicrous that Suda seems to be mocking the entire exercise of trying to inject meaning into such a game, or of our looking for it.

"You want Truth?" he seems to be saying, "You want Art? And you're looking for it in THIS crap? What is WRONG with you?"

Very meta, I reply. Very po-mo. And I take another sip of my coffee-chain latte.

[Eddy]

Well, I just beat it...

I loved it. It wasn't perfect but, all in all, I loved it. I too thought the bosses weren't as memorable as they were in the first game but, the more I've been thinking about them, the more I've grown to appreciate them. Even Batt Jr. Yeah, he was annoying as hell, but his mission was the same as Travis'. Revenge. Travis killed his father in the original No More Heroes and so Batt killed Bishop. I felt the game was more about Travis this time around anyway, while the first one was more about the killers.

The boss fights? Well, the majority of them I liked. My favorite would have to Margaret. The fight, along with the music, was just a lot of fun. It was challenging but it never felt cheap. Letz Shake and New Destroyman were also great fights. Batt's second form was ridiculous and really the only fight I truly hated in this game. His first and last forms were a joke.

I agree with everyone who said they would have liked to be Shinobu and Henry more. Then again, the game is about Travis.

As for the ending... well, I didn't mind it. They way I saw people reacting I was prepared for the worst ending ever and, really, that wasn't so bad. Travis' work was done. He got his revenge. He didn't care about becoming number one, he just wanted to avenge the death of Bishop. What else should have happened?

The scene with Travis and Sylvia at the end though, well, I don't know what to make of that. I've seen different fan speculations but I guess we'll have to wait and see what really happened there.

One thing I really had a problem with was the lack of closure for Shinobu. Seriously, what's the deal with that? She leaves the motel and we never hear from her again. That really bothered me.
Do I like it more than No More Heroes 1? Hard to say. When the first NMH came out it was unlike anything we had ever seen before. We have to keep in mind that NMH2 is a sequel. I think I need to let it all sink it and maybe play through NMH1 again.

[Psychopulse]

Well, I just beat it...

I loved it. It wasn't perfect but, all in all, I loved it. I too thought the bosses weren't as memorable as they were in the first game but, the more I've been thinking about them, the more I've grown to appreciate them. Even Batt Jr. Yeah, he was annoying as hell, but his mission was the same as Travis'. Revenge. Travis killed his father in the original No More Heroes and so Batt killed Bishop. I felt the game was more about Travis this time around anyway, while the first one was more about the killers.

The boss fights? Well, the majority of them I liked. My favorite would have to Margaret. The fight, along with the music, was just a lot of fun. It was challenging but it never felt cheap. Letz Shake and New Destroyman were also great fights. Batt's second form was ridiculous and really the only fight I truly hated in this game. His first and last forms were a joke.

I agree with everyone who said they would have liked to be Shinobu and Henry more. Then again, the game is about Travis.

As for the ending... well, I didn't mind it. They way I saw people reacting I was prepared for the worst ending ever and, really, that wasn't so bad. Travis' work was done. He got his revenge. He didn't care about becoming number one, he just wanted to avenge the death of Bishop. What else should have happened?

The scene with Travis and Sylvia at the end though, well, I don't know what to make of that. I've seen different fan speculations but I guess we'll have to wait and see what really happened there.

One thing I really had a problem with was the lack of closure for Shinobu. Seriously, what's the deal with that? She leaves the motel and we never hear from her again. That really bothered me.
Do I like it more than No More Heroes 1? Hard to say. When the first NMH came out it was unlike anything we had ever seen before. We have to keep in mind that NMH2 is a sequel. I think I need to let it all sink it and maybe play through NMH1 again.

It's funnier when you realize that Her song is mocking Travis and his motivation for revenge in the lyrics. :D

[Juu-kuchi]

Finally finished the game, and with regards to what is the better game...

I believe they balance each other out. Each had it's strengths and weaknesses over the other at equal numbers. NMH2 was not as daring or in your face as NMH1, yet it did not have inordinate amounts of padding like the first one, but while it offers a fair number of things to do... It doesn't much either. Taking away the sandbox kindof leaves you lacking with things to do OTHER than fighting ranking battles, jobs, or shopping. There was at the very least a pleasant surprise here and there for you to explore. Here, not so much. Just fight, work, shop, and save. I mean... they could at least have had the option to explore Santa Destroy and see what changes have been made to it. Then there are the parts where the game just feels... lazy. I mean seriously, before Captain Vladimir, you spend like five minutes driving on Schpeltiger to his location. No fighting, no action, no nothing. Why? Also, maybe I'm crazy, but playing this game makes me miss the fact that you had to grind to fight the ranked battles in the first game. Yes, it was tedious, but you must admit there was a level of satisfaction in finally killing the guy. You earned it, you worked for it, and now it's been put to good use. Here you can just eschew most of the sidequests for the majority of the time (if you're REALLY hardcore) and just keep heading up and fighting the ranked battles. Granted I'm not advocating they reinstate the original's grinding system TOTALLY, but the more I think about it, the more it worked for me.

Also, no usage of the phrase "Trust your Force, and head for the Garden of Madness?" Fail.

On a Juu scale, it ranks an 8/10.

[Mynd Hed]

I just got through the Shinobu missions, and I've got to say, that was some of the weakest, most pointlessly frustrating platforming I've suffered through in a long time. You're lucky I love you, No More Heroes, because I wouldn't put up with that kind of crap in just any game.

[Psychopulse]

I just got through the Shinobu missions, and I've got to say, that was some of the weakest, most pointlessly frustrating platforming I've suffered through in a long time. You're lucky I love you, No More Heroes, because I wouldn't put up with that kind of crap in just any game.

I can't blame you for those moments.

I had some trouble hitting the highest switch in the vault before Million Gunman.

And I had some trouble with the walkways and falling off buildings on the way to New Destroyman.

It didn't help that New Destroyman was annoying to take down. I beat him on the first try (I beat it on Mild when I first played the game, same for the first one), but chasing the one flying around was so annoying after beating the one on the ground, because you had to stop him from trying to revive his other half.

[Spike Mcdougal]

Okay....

1. I finally started playing this week after I finally beat the first game.

2. Can anyone tell me how to properly stay on that freaking treadmill in the gym. I know about pressing B and Z but I keep falling off

[Mynd Hed]

Okay....

1. I finally started playing this week after I finally beat the first game.

2. Can anyone tell me how to properly stay on that freaking treadmill in the gym. I know about pressing B and Z but I keep falling off

Make sure you hold the thumbstick in the opposite direction that the treadmill is moving. It also helps if you don't just start hammering B and Z as soon as the game starts: wait for half a second to see which way Travis is going to move, because stupid Pink Leotard Man Who Wishes He Were As Cool As Thunder Ryu But Isn't And I Hope He Dies Like Thunder Ryu But More Painfully And Doesn't Come Back As A Ghost likes to switch directions on you.

[Spike Mcdougal]

Make sure you hold the thumbstick in the opposite direction that the treadmill is moving. It also helps if you don't just start hammering B and Z as soon as the game starts: wait for half a second to see which way Travis is going to move, because stupid Pink Leotard Man Who Wishes He Were As Cool As Thunder Ryu But Isn't And I Hope He Dies Like Thunder Ryu But More Painfully And Doesn't Come Back As A Ghost likes to switch directions on you.

He's defiantly not Thunder Ryu and the fact that he looks like Freddie Mercury doesnt help.

Anyway thank you, I managed to do it twice so now both rounds of training are now 6000, unfortunately it's not going to get better

[Mynd Hed]

Yeah, it sucks that the two 8-bit-style minigames that are the most frustrating and the least fun are the only two that are required to beef your stats. Hang in there, it DOES get a little easier once you get the hang of it (although I've decided I can just live without that last point of Strength).

So I got to the bit where Sylvia tosses Travis a freebie. That surprised me. Did anyone else notice that when the letters were falling off the hotel sign, instead of "No More Heroes Motel" it read "Ero Motel"? Cute.

[Psychopulse]

Ryan doesn't die, unfortunately... :(

I know a cheap trick for the strength training, though. Pause the game as soon as you see the dumbbell coming your way, then unpause and kick or punch it. It helped me with the last one.

[Mynd Hed]

Beat the game, and I've got to say that the ending was... kind of underwhelming compared to the kickass ending of the first one. I mean, if you buy into what the Destructoid article says about Sylvia representing the developer and Travis the gamer and how they have to team up and kill the evil publisher so that gaming can move forward at art and whatnot then it makes some sort of sense, but even then it's, well... is it weird of me to say that I didn't find it cynical enough?

Also, that final boss is no Jeanne, and certainly no Henry.

A lot of people are complaining that the second form of the final boss is too hard. I had the same problem, until I realized that there's a trick to it.

Gameplay spoilers only, no story spoilers: You know that "hold-down-A-to-charge" move that's totally useless EVERYWHERE else in the game? Yeah, it KILLS in this fight. He gives you crazy amounts of time to charge, it does more damage against him than any other attack, and you're invincible during your attack animation. Just charge up while you're closing your distance with him, and if he throws bats at you, release and start over. Once you close to melee range, wait until he launches his attack and then release yours. You'll hit him, he'll miss you. Easy.