Batman In Animation: A Retrospective

[Stu]

To celebrate the upcoming release of the direct-to-video Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths animated feature, I thought I'd take a look back at the previous animated appearances of Batman. With thanks to The World's Finest (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/main.php) for the content and use of images. And without further ado, the largest retrospective I'll ever, ever write!

_______________________

To truly review the origins of the animated Batman one must travel back in time to the summer of 1989. An exhaustive marketing campaign meant the world and his friend was anticipating Tim Burton’s Batman movie, which would take the caped crusader back to his dark roots as he battled The Joker, portrayed by the legendary Jack Nicholson.

Whilst I am personally too young to remember to remember the scepticism that most felt towards the film due to the casting of Michael Keaton as Batman and how dark it looked it is well documented that the studio was originally very worried about Keaton in the role to the point where they put a trailer out a lot earlier than originally intended to show Keaton in costume and hopefully convince people that he could pull it off. Despite receiving rave reviews for his portrayal as the title characater in Burton's Beetlejuice, many thought he was too scrawny and weak to portray the caped crusader.

I do however; briefly remember the feeling of Batmania running through the world at the time of the pictures release. Batman was everywhere at this point – figures, cereal, television reruns, t-shirts, you name it, Batman was on it. (Why did they stop making those Batman spaghetti shapes, a nation cries?)


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/releases/DVD/anthology/b02.jpg

Finally, on June 23rd 1989, Batman was released in theatres. Whilst many consider it to be an excellent effort, I’ve always found it to a bit of a disappointment, for various reasons. First of all, the plot is paper thin, but more importantly; this is simply a mediocre version of Batman, to me. His back-story is all but absent, with the exception of his parents deaths being shown. It is hinted that he did travel the world to hone his skills, as shown by the armoury in his house but the simple fact is, Batman is shown as a wuss. The number of times he is shot and gets the crap beaten out of him is quite shocking. Keaton doesn’t have the physique to pull of Batman, hence why they had to paint it on his costume. I understand that this is the nature of Batman, but Batman should be able to fight – he is a crime fighter after all. If any idiot went out and wore a costume to fight crime without powers, he’d be killed very, very quickly. The character comes across as very dull and somewhat confusing, despite an excellent performance from Michael Keaton. It’s never established why he kills some villains, but no others nor is there any mention of where he managed to find a plane that looks like a bat, and so forth. The character simply isn’t developed as much as he should be – add this to the weak plot and you have a film that wasn’t as good as it should’ve been. You don’t manage to get into his mind enough to establish why he would go out and fight crime, never mind why he would dress up as a bat to do so. After listening to Burton’s commentary on the film, he mentions that he wanted to give Batman his privacy and didn’t feel the need to explain anything. I personally find that to be a very lazy excuse, but I admit I did have to struggle to sit through the entire commentary, especially after watching the second discs special features where they hail what is in my opinion a shockingly mediocre film as the second coming of Christ. Burton fails to understand even the basic premises of the character and masks the film up in a fairy tale like world - it seems that even the concept of common sense when it came to Batman's characerisation isn't applied here. His motivation that "It's not a perfect world" makes very little sense - the drive that Bruce Wayne needs to be Batman is absent in the film. There's no hint of the bored billionaire playboy either - Bruce Wayne is more or less the same as Batman, just not wearing a costume. No attempt is made to fool people into believing he isn't Batman and there's nothing interesting about his character, apart from the chemistry he has with Alfred, one of the few things the movie excelled at. The romance isn't interesting either - theres's no spark to Kim Basinger's Vicky Vale and it's all too rushed - Wayne slept with Vale on thier first date and then seems uninterested in her after that.

Having said all that, the film is held in a much higher regard than most summer blockbusters and isn’t actually all that terrible – just mediocre. Despite the fact it should've been a lot better, the movie is still perfectly watchable. The film is saved by a career best performance from Jack Nicholson as the villain of the piece, The Joker. He is simply wonderful. Creepy, hilarious and somewhat sinister in his make up, he simply steals every scene he is in. A lot of people complain about his overbearing presence in the film but given that he is the only character that seems to be written well and has well defined motivation, I don’t think this should be to the film’s discredit – I think they should commended for finding lightning in a bottle and making the most of it. I especially love how petty and uncaring his motivation is.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/releases/DVD/anthology/b01.jpg

“Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in when a man DRESSED UP AS A BAT gets all of my press?

...This town needs an emema!”

If I ever get around to doing a Joker retrospective (doubtful) expect me to ramble on and on and on about the magnificent Mr Nicholson.

The film looks amazing, despite Batman’s silly, restricting costume. They didn’t strive for verisimilitude here and Batman takes place in an almost fairy tale like world. Its sets are stunning and they do wonders for the film’s tone and help boost the previously discussed quality of the script and woefully underdeveloped characters.

Overall, an underdeveloped main character, dull romance and a downright irritating supporting cast are pretty much saved by Jack Nicholson and an absolutely fantastic score by the dark storyteller himself, Danny Elfman. In retrospect, I think Elfman is the only one here trying to tell a story and give us an insight as to what Batman is all about. While not quite as famous as John William’s Superman theme, many would argue it does match its quality. Having recently played the Lego Batman videogame, I found myself getting goosebumps while playing a simple, juvenile game aimed at people's who age has yet to reach double digits. That should be a testament to how powerful the score is. Elfman hasn't topped it yet and he's arguably the best in the world at what he does.

Foolishly, The Joker is killed at the end of the film, which meant Jack Nicholson had no chance of saving the sequel (despite actually being paid for it!). But would he need to, or would the writers improve the sequel without him?



In the summer of 1992, Tim Burton and Michael Keaton returned to bring Batman back to the big screen with new adversaries with Danny DeVito portraying The Penguin and Michelle Pfeiffer bringing Catwoman to life. As part of the deal to get Burton to come back for the sequel, he was given complete creative control. He expressed a desire to use Catwoman in the picture whilst the studio felt The Penguin should be involved. Burton ended up using both and introduced a new character, Max Shreik, into the fold.

There’s no point even trying to deny or get around the fact – the film is dark. It makes the first one seem light by comparison. Whilst many disagree with me, I think Batman Returns is superior to the original in almost every single way, but it still falls a little short and still doesn’t do Batman’s character justice.

The film is too crowded, with three different villains. I understand why they included this many villains and how each one of them represents a different personality of the lead (Penguin is the orphan, Shriek is the billionaire industrialist and Catwoman represents Bruce’s costumed alter ego) but the Penguin subplot wasn’t really all that interesting yet somehow managed to take up most of the film’s screen time.

Devito disgusted many as The Penguin, but I personally thought he looked great. I don’t see what people find appealing about a villain with a bird fetish and I think visually, this revamp worked. The character wasn’t really all that interesting but props go to Danny Devito for making a rather dull character a lot more interesting than he had a right to be. Still, I don’t doubt that the film would’ve been a lot better had Catwoman and Shreik been the only villains.

The highlight of the picture is Catwoman. Michelle Pfeiffer is absolutely fantastic in the role and her costume looks great. Considering I’ve never, ever found Catwoman interesting, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed her in this movie. There’s a great romance in Returns that was never again equalled in the two sequels. I wonder how Batman Forever would’ve turned out if Burton did come back as he was planning to bring Catwoman back, or so the rumour goes. There was a planned spin off for years, which eventually accumulated in that terrible Halle Berry movie which none of us wanted to see.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/sections/releases/DVD/anthology/br02.jpg

The main problem I have with the picture is that there simply isn’t enough Batman in it. The pacing is iffy throughout the film and Batman’s presence is simply never to be found. They did do a lot better with him this time though – his costume is a hell of a lot better, he actually looks like he knows how to fight, Keaton even manages to improve upon his stellar performance in the original. They almost managed to develop his struggles with Bruce Wayne’s happiness with Catwoman but again, Burton’s insistence to give Batman his privacy gets in the way. I don't think Burton is a hack as such - he just has vastly different views on who and what Batman is - there's a difference between not developing a character and not telling his backstory. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't have a backstory - he was defined by his actions - we don't know how he got his scars, what turned him into an agent of choas but we know he has little regard for rules and 'plans'. It works - far better than any big screen supervillain ever has (and I'll make a prediction and say probably ever will.)

Batman Returns received a mixed reaction from fans and the general movie going public. It’s box office intake didn’t quite match the original and many folks hit the fan at just how dark the film was – McDonalds even famously refused to continue with the film’s Happy Meal deal after it’s release, stating that the film shouldn’t be marketed towards children.

Whilst Tim Burton and co began production on Batman Returns, a rejuvinated Warner Bros. Animation had their own plans for the Dark Knight, along with Tiny Toons, Gremlins and... another show, which I cannot recall. (I want to say Tazmaniac though). They announced that Batman was going to be one of the properties they were adapting to animation in time for fall 1992, just after the release of Batman Returns in theatres.

Producers Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski went to work building the world Batman would inhabit and worked with Paul Dini and crafted the show’s Bible, which told the writers that this wasn’t going to be a comedy or a goofy 1980’s cartoon show, this was to be a dark, noir series which would mix various elements of the comics, the movies and their own ideas. Batman was not to be a quipping hero – he was the dark detective of Gotham City.

Timm was adamant that the shows look better than most of the cartoons of the time and designed the characters to play to the strengths of animation - simplistic designs that are easy to animate. The backgrounds were drawn on black paper to give the series a darker look and the cast was mainly going to be consisting of people who had never done animation before, mainly stage types who knew how to project their voices for dramatic performances – gone were the high pitched, squeaky voiced villains from the 1980’s, now the actors were instructed to strive for verisimilitude in their performances. (Thank you Dick Donner!)

With Tiny Toons having the powerful Steven Spielberg in it's driving force, he insisted that full orchestral scores be created for each episode, rather than relying on stock music. Such practise was carried onto Batman and Shirley Walker and her crew created themes for all the characters - each villain had thier own musical motive and each one of them was fantastic. An unsettling circus chorus for The Joker, a waddling march for Penguin and a really, really creepy tune for Two-Face.

With everything now in place, it was announced that Batman: The Animated Series would premiere on Saturday, September 5th.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

Nice retrospective so far. It must have taken a lot of time to write, considering all the cartoons and movies featuring Batman since the 89 movie.

Will this be added to the World's Finest website at some point, like the Marvel ones?

[Mad Monkey 7]

are you skipping the Super Friends and the 70's batman animated series?

[dark knight 90]

The film is saved by a career best performance from Jack Nicholson

Oh dear god nooooooo... hes great in the movie, but seriously??

Disagreed with quite a bit of what you had to say, but looking forward to the retrospective regardless.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

are you skipping the Super Friends and the 70's batman animated series?

These boards usually cover DC animation from the 90's to now, unlike the Marvel ones, which cover before that.

[Stu]

These boards usually cover DC animation from the 90's to now, unlike the Marvel ones, which cover before that.

Correct. The fact that pre-TAS, the only Batman animated I've seen is 5 single episodes of an early Batman show. I'm not even sure where it's from - it has the same models as the Bat-mite cartoon, but Bat-mite is not present and Adam West and Burt Ward do not provide thier voices.

[ABrown]

Correct. The fact that pre-TAS, the only Batman animated I've seen is 5 single episodes of an early Batman show. I'm not even sure where it's from - it has the same models as the Bat-mite cartoon, but Bat-mite is not present and Adam West and Burt Ward do not provide thier voices.

I believe this is what you're probably referring to....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J6N83C47L._SL500_AA140_.jpg

I was not a happy eight year old when after seeing the 1989 Batman movie, this was the only Batman animation that I had to watch.

[Stu]

I believe this is what you're probably referring to....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J6N83C47L._SL500_AA140_.jpg

I was not a happy eight year old when after seeing the 1989 Batman movie, this was the only Batman animation that I had to watch.

That's the one - while the background cover to my video is yellow, that's definatly what I watched. I had a Superman video too, that had 7 episodes on it though, and I believe it's now available on DVD, whereas Batman isn't to my knowledge.


Nice retrospective so far. It must have taken a lot of time to write, considering all the cartoons and movies featuring Batman since the 89 movie.

You have no idea. I started this thing in spring 2008, hoping to get it finished in time for The Dark Knight movie - I've only recently completed it too. The 2nd largest one I did was Superman at 146KB, this one is 317. You'll probably be bored to tears by the time you get to the end of it!

[Stu]

Please note this retrospective will be dealt with in the shows production order, as that’s how I know them best – they aired in a different order over here in the mighty Yorkshire, and I personally prefer the production dates over the original airings.

There are few episodes that explain Batman better than On Leather Wings. Here, we see him as a detective, we see him kicking ass and we see how he uses his Bruce Wayne persona as a disguise to help him with his latest problem as Batman. This first episode alone shows how vastly different it was from all the previous superhero cartoons – compare this to the likes of Spider-Man And His Amazing Friends and you’ll see they are simply worlds apart. Batman, along with X-Men, paved the way for intelligent, sophisticated action cartoons which pretty much domination the 1990’s until Pokemon came in and the networks realised they could save a lot of money by dubbing Japanese cartoons rather than funding the cost of production themselves.

The episode in question sees Batman framed after a Bat creature commits a series of robberies. Man Bat was used to show that this is a different Batman from what people were expecting – it wasn’t just a movie spin off, it was Superfriends, it wasn’t a dumbed down and it wasn’t an animated version of the Adam West show, it was an all new Batman. I personally always liked how they actually explained how someone becomes a giant Bat – it sounds strange now but with the cartoons I’d watched growing up before Batman, no one questioned just why a villain would wear a fishbowl over his head – he just did, and we loved them for it! I am now especially careful when buying painkillers and vitamins, lest I turn into a giant bat.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/episodes/onleatherwings/18.jpg

On Leather Wings is one of the series finest episodes and the fight with Man Bat remains one of the best the show ever did. There’s also a stunning sequence of Batman chasing Man Bat through the Gotham night sky. It also sets up several future episodes with Harvey Bullock showing his hatred for Batman and a pre-Two-Face Harvey Dent flipping his coin and also helped that establish that no one is quite sure what to make of Batman yet – the Mayor was quick to authorise the strike force is and even Gordon isn’t entirely sure if he should be trusting The Batman yet – he doesn’t immediately dispute the allegations that it was Batman who committed the robberies like he certainly would in later episodes.

Robin and The Joker would début in a not so impressive fashion but Batman’s origin is documented further in Nothing To Fear as he begins to question his own character after being induced with The Scarecrow’s fear gas. It turns out that even after all the years separated from his parents, his biggest shame is letting them down, or perhaps, letting their death’s go unpunished. One of the character’s defining moments in his 15 year plus history is uttered in the episode;

“You are not my father - I am not a disgrace! I am vengeance! I am the night! I am Batman!”

I remember they used a similar tag line on the Batman VHS’ that were released shortly after the series premièred.

He Is Vengeance. He Is The Night. He Is Batman.

Ah, the good old days, so much better than the lacklustre DVD covers we have now. I swear, I’d have bought every episode on this show on those old 2 episode a tape VHS’ if they’d have released them. The line in question has since become Kevin Conroy's catchphrase.

The series apparently had problems with their story editor earlier on as she clashed with what the producers wanted their Batman to be so several of the early episodes suffer from either mediocre plots or dodgy scripts. Poison Ivy gets a good introduction in Pretty Poison but the true highlight of the early episodes, besides the pilot is Two-Face, Part One. In a complete rarity in a superhero cartoon, it features pretty much no action and focuses on Harvey Dent rather than Batman and his deep-rooted psychological problems. In the midst of it all, Harvey is caught in an explosion that seriously disfigures half of his body that causes him to snap, becoming more or less two personalities both of which suffer from an inability to take charge and make decisions, instead relying on chance. Part two isn’t anywhere near as good, but again, judging from the standards at the time it was almost completely unheard of. Superhero cartoons of the time were squeaky clean fun, there was very little psychological evaluation in the cartoons of the time and to see something that dark upset more than a few soccer Moms. It’s interesting to note that they consider Harvey to be Bruce’s friend – in their efforts to make Batman a complete bad ass, DC Comics often forget that Bruce Wayne is actually a person and cannot turn his feelings on and off – Bruce shows true regret at not being able to help Harvey months after the accident, whereas you get the feeling comic book Batman would’ve simply showed Two-Face the back of his hand and end it there. We see that Bruce is genuinely hurt by the events that transpired in part one so much that he actually suffers from nightmares in part two and is visibly shaken up by it.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/episodes/twofacep1/30.jpg

It has been stated that this was the episode where they felt they finally got a handle on how Batman should be, and how he should be animated. Whilst their original offers may have been less than brilliant, one person who has yet to do a bad job with Batman is his voice actor, Kevin Conroy. It’s been over 15 years and the man has still yet to do anything less than stunning in the role. When it comes to adapting a comic book character to animation, there simply isn’t anyone who comes remotely close to reaching Kevin Conroy’s level. He is and will always be Batman – despite noble attempts from Christian Bale, pretty much everyone who has ever tried to wear his cape and cowl is almost immediately dismissed as a mere pretender to his throne.

Both The Penguin and Catwoman would receive truly horrible introductions before what many consider to be the series greatest episode premiered, Heart Of Ice. Mr. Freeze underwent a major revamp from his lame comic book counterpart as a man dead to emotion seeking revenge for the loss of his wife, with little regard to anyone or anything that gets in his way. It’s weird to look back on – the writers really struggled with the first appearances of the big three Batman villains, The Joker, Catwoman and The Penguin but did wonders with the crap comic characters such as Mr. Freeze, The Clock King and Killer Croc. There’s a scene in Heart Of Ice that especially impressed me, in which Batman witnesses what happened to Fries’ wife and is stunned with what he’s just seen, unable to come out with anything other than “My God…” Even after Freeze kidnaps him, he shows remorse towards the villain and offers his sympathies, rather than threatening to whoop Freeze’s ass for daring to steal his utility belt.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/episodes/heartofice/21.jpg

It also showcased something that plagued previous superhero cartoons – that the comics they were based upon are not perfect pieces of fiction. If you read through Batman’s comic book history there’s a lot of utter crap – I’m not talking about the 50’s where he and Robin continuously battled aliens. Even now, there’s stupid story-lines that do no justice for any of the characters and are merely designed to shock readers into buying them to read what all the fuss is about (Just what was the point of Batman: RIP?). This show was different – they took what worked from the characters and used that and created new stuff if they needed to. Mr. Freeze’s comic book character was a gimmick – a dude with a freeze gun incapable of surviving outside of his cybernetic suit. The rest they thought out themselves and did a grand job.

The episode’s impact was immense. People started believing that cartoons could be aimed at more than just children and the episode received an Emmy nomination. It’s also Jim Harvey’s favourite episode which in turn, probably had a big hand in creating the very message board you’re posting on. In 2002, the posters at The World’s Finest Message board voted this as their favourite Batman episode ever, and it was given it’s own special page on the site, which you can find here. (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/heartofice)

14 episodes in and we’d had some stunners and some duds. Was the series suffering from opening jitters or could we expect a similar streak of inconsistent episodes?

[aiwac]

Very nice retrospective. I'm really looking forward to updates. (Is that Superman retrospective available anywhere?)

I will however dissent on a number of points:

1) Granted, Burton's films didn't develop Batman enough, but they did contribute a critical component to the mythos: the truly nightmarish atmosphere, a reflection of Batman's inner world. I still remember watching the first film, esp. the last scenes up in the cathedral. They made a lasting impression on me, and no doubt prepared millions of children such as myself (back then, of course :p) for the noir-style BTAS.

2) OK, I'll concede that voice-wise, Conroy reigns as Batman, but calling Bale a mere pretender is a little bit much. Perhaps "best motion picture effort" or even "worthy understudy to Conroy" would be a better tribute to his "noble efforts" while at the same maintaining Conroy's status as THE Batman. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game...

Just my two cents,

aiwac

[Nygma]

there's a difference between not developing a character and not telling his backstory. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't have a backstory - he was defined by his actions - we don't know how he got his scars, what turned him into an agent of choas but we know he has little regard for rules and 'plans'. It works - far better than any big screen supervillain ever has (and I'll make a prediction and say probably ever will.)

To the Dark Knights credit The Joker's motivation is hinted at in the movie with one of his quotes.
Joker: Kill You? I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, you...you complete me.

Joker sees Batman as the ultimate challenge, its sort of similar to that quote Joker uses in Mad Love when talking about wanting to triumph Batman with his pranks and antics over his mask and gadgets.

The problem I always had with Nicholsen's Joker is that him killing his parents made the movie feel like a one-note revenge story.
That and making him the killer of his parents felt lazy at best. This isn't like with Brainiac in Superman TAS where him being responsible for Kryptons destruction took him from B-lister to A-lister. This was applying a concept to a villain who didn't need it.


The series apparently had problems with their story editor earlier on as she clashed with what the producers wanted their Batman to be so several of the early episodes suffer from either mediocre plots or dodgy scripts. Poison Ivy gets a good introduction in Pretty Poison but the true highlight of the early episodes, besides the pilot is Two-Face, Part One. In a complete rarity in a superhero cartoon, it features pretty much no action and focuses on Harvey Dent rather than Batman and his deep-rooted psychological problems.Man those first few episodes story edited by Sean Catherine Derek are some pretty dull ones aren't they? The only one that she story edited that I liked was The Forgotten.

[Stu]

Very nice retrospective. I'm really looking forward to updates. (Is that Superman retrospective available anywhere?)

An out of date Superman retrospective can be found here. (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197622&highlight=superman+retrospective) Please feel free to bump that one if there's something in there you'd like to discuss.


I will however dissent on a number of points:

1) Granted, Burton's films didn't develop Batman enough, but they did contribute a critical component to the mythos: the truly nightmarish atmosphere, a reflection of Batman's inner world. I still remember watching the first film, esp. the last scenes up in the cathedral. They made a lasting impression on me, and no doubt prepared millions of children such as myself (back then, of course :p) for the noir-style BTAS.

There's no doubt denying the film added to Batman's legend, no question there. I just think the film could've been better. There's glimmers of brilliance in there, but nothing about Batman himself shines, for me.


2) OK, I'll concede that voice-wise, Conroy reigns as Batman, but calling Bale a mere pretender is a little bit much. Perhaps "best motion picture effort" or even "worthy understudy to Conroy" would be a better tribute to his "noble efforts" while at the same maintaining Conroy's status as THE Batman. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game...

Just my two cents,

aiwac

Quite true. He is by far the best Batman to ever wear the cape and cowl. I'd go so far as say he's probably the best live action attempt at a comic book hero - although that's up for a massive debate, with Robert Downey Jr, Hugh Jackman and Christopher Reeve all to consider. I'm a massive Bale fan, I just think Conroy is that slight bit better at it, but it's difficult to compare them, cross mediums.


To the Dark Knights credit The Joker's motivation is hinted at in the movie with one of his quotes.
Joker: Kill You? I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, you...you complete me.

Joker sees Batman as the ultimate challenge, its sort of similar to that quote Joker uses in Mad Love when talking about wanting to triumph Batman with his pranks and antics over his mask and gadgets.

I think I've not made the point clear here - I wholeheartedly agree with you. The Joker's motivation in Dark Knight is crystal clear. My point is that Batman's backstory in Burton's film was pretty much ignored (beyond the hint of him travelling the world as the armoury in his house suggests.)


The problem I always had with Nicholsen's Joker is that him killing his parents made the movie feel like a one-note revenge story.
That and making him the killer of his parents felt lazy at best. This isn't like with Brainiac in Superman TAS where him being responsible for Kryptons destruction took him from B-lister to A-lister. This was applying a concept to a villain who didn't need it.

Yup, I thought it was a cheap trick too. It was needless - it added absoloutly nothing to the story and is again another misdirection of Batman's character. Agree about Brainiac - an awesome touch which only made the Superman/Braniac feud better.

[Stu]

The visuals behind the show have often divided fans – many have stated that the original episodes look clunky and aren’t as smooth as some of the revamped episodes. I somewhat agree, but I find that the same details added in the BTAS days flourish when the animation is up to snuff. Sure, AKOM episodes look crap, but be honest – they’d still look terrible if they were animating TNBA models wouldn’t they? What’s worse is that when you compare the work AKOM did on Batman to their other stuff (most notably X-Men) its worlds better. The TMS stuff and even the majority of the Dong Wang episode do look very good though – animation has improved dramatically in the past few years but back in the 1990’s, sloppy animation errors where considered the norm. Compare the animation in Batman to X-Men and the later seasons of Spider-Man and I think you’ll agree that the Dark Knight triumphs.

The thing I like most about the BTAS visuals is the backgrounds. The dark deco look, as it was dubbed, is simply stunning to look at even 15 years later. Despite noble attempts, they’ve never managed to create a city that looked quite as brilliant as Gotham City did back in the day. Few cartoons, even now, pop like Batman did back in the day. To me, the best episodes of the revamped and modern shows don’t quite shine like Robin’s Reckoning, Read My Lips or The Demon’s Head. Visuals wise, I can’t think of a 2D show that has impressed me more that Batman: The Animated Series. Considering the increasing cost of animation and my preference of traditional ink and paint over digital colouring, I doubt this is ever likely to change.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/bios/batman/17.jpg

While the creative team were quick to adapt even the most obscure of villains from Batman’s illustrious comic book history, they weren’t afraid to wander down their own original route. My personal favourite original character in Batman is The Gray Ghost (sorry, Harley).

The episode in questions sees Batman unable to prevent a series of bombings plaguing the city until he remembers that events are unfolding out just like an episode of The Gray Ghost, a television series he watched as a child. Add in some brilliant stunt casting with former caped crusader Adam West and you have the makings of a classic. You can see Bruce’s disappointment with Trent when he reveals that he isn’t interested in helping Batman stop The Mad Bomber and how thrilled he is when he turns up at the scene of the crime in his old costume. The episode simply shines throughout, with the ending being perhaps one of the best the show ever did.

Bruce: Please make it out to” Bruce”.
Trent: There you go, Bruce.
Bruce: Thanks Mr. Trent. Y’know as a kid, I used to watch you with my Father. The Gray Ghost was my hero.
Trent: Really?
Bruce: And he still is.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/bios/grayghost/21.jpg

I wouldn’t even complain that he gave away his secret identity, it was that good. Not like that stupid Static Shock episode (I’ll rant about that later). It’s also this shows take on Bruce’s own fondness from Zorro from the comic books. One of my favourite moments from the silly amount of Batman comics I’ve read is in (the otherwise terrible) The Dark Knight Strikes Back in which Bruce, after seeing the devastation Lex Luthor has caused, takes a sword and scratches a “Z” across his face as revenge as a tribute to his old childhood hero. While they wouldn’t have been allowed to use Zorro here, The Grey Ghost works as a great substitute. It also shows a great human side to Bruce Wayne, who is more often that not forgotten in most depictions of Batman.

Unlike a lot of the comic books at the time, Batman has always been likeable throughout his animated history. Stubborn, yes, but something human always appeared – the books often focused on making everything so dark and dismal that they forgot to have any fun and made the character rather boring. They’re annoying still doing it now and have pretty much made Bruce Wayne a redundant character – he simply wastes time while we all wait for Batman to show up (or they were doing it before the killed him off, but not really of course). One of the cartoon’s better examples of Wayne is in Perchance To Dream, in which a trap from The Mad Hatter sets Bruce up in a perfect reality – his parents are still alive, he’s happily engaged to Selina Kyle and neither of them wear masks. He instantly fights his happiness instead of embracing it as most would, making for a very interesting flawed character. Bruce doesn’t trust those around him – in several episodes throughout the season when the villains attempt to reform, Batman is constantly on their tale and often refuses to take their word for it even when they have evidence to support their stories. It even frustrates him, as he mentions to Alfred in House And Garden while spying on a reformed Poison Ivy.

BATMAN: She's done nothing more incriminating than return an overdue video - even paid the late fee.
ALFRED: Could it be Ivy truly has reformed?
BATMAN: I want to believe it . . . Why can't I?

The episode itself is one of the more fascinating throughout the shows run – there’s a great mystery as to how Bruce ended up in this bizarre world and he himself even questions whether or not his dual identity as Batman is a figment of his own imagination until he ultimately suspects that something is amok as his life is too perfect. The line which eventually snaps him out of it is when he analysis’ his own assessment of the situation.

“My life is a dream, Alfred. The best dream anyone ever had.”

Kevin Conroy has stated that this is his personal favourite episodes as he really gets to show off his acting chops with four different roles. Bruce, Batman, Thomas Wayne and ‘evil’ Batman. It’s rare for a superhero show to focus entirely on the man behind the mask, especially when you consider the villain didn’t show up until the last minute of the episode in an incredibly well done moment.

BATMAN: WHY did you do it?!
THE MAD HATTER: You of all people have the GAWL to ask me that?! You ruined my life!! I was willing to give you the perfect life, JUST to keep you out of mine!

One of the more interesting looks at Batman occurs in Dreams In Darkness – it’s very irregular compared to most Batman episodes as Batman narrates the story, most of which is told in flashback form. Batman was usually kept quiet in the earlier, pre-Robin episodes. He would often explain the plot to Alfred in the Batcave if the audience needed to be made aware of something, but he had a golden silence that is sorely missed in all other superhero cartoons – Batman didn’t have to explain that he was going to walk up to a filling cabinet to pick out a clue. He’d simply walk up to it, look through the cabinet until he found what he needed and gave the audience a visual confirmation that he’s found said clue, instead of shouting “Bingo!” and dancing around the room or something. This type of storytelling is sorely missed in today’s shows.

Once again drugged by The Scarecrow, Batman must stop his fearsome foe before he poisons Gotham’s water supply, despite not being in the right frame of mind. His fears are again brought to his attention as Robin and Alfred mock him, stating that he has lived in Darkness for too long, he again overcomes his struggles and stops The Scarecrow and sleeps off the effects of the drugs in the Batcave. It says something that he would choose to sleep in the cave rather than in his bed – or maybe Dick Sebast just wanted that cool visual with the bat at the end, who knows? Locking Batman in Arkham was certainly an interesting idea – it would have been nice to see him interact with several of the other inmates. One can only imagine how interesting a conversation he could’ve had with The Riddler if they were both institutionalised at the same time.


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The introduction of Robin was something many fans feel goes against the main character of Batman – many believe that he should be a lone vigilante in his war against crime in Gotham City – I am not among them. I like Batman and Robin, the dynamic duo. Even I note that beyond Nightwing, I don’t really give a crap about any of his other sidekicks and question the integrity of Batman’s character each time they are featured. I’m ready to believe that Batman can spend years training his body to fight crime – the idea of someone putting on a costume with revenge in their heart and going out and fighting crime is a little ludicrous to me and reeks of nothing but lazy writing and a desire to increase sales. Back to my main point – many did not welcome Robin’s inclusion in the show, however, the quality of his origin episode isn’t questionable – it is absolutely superb. We see Dick Grayson’s parents murdered and Bruce Wayne sympathise with the boy and take him in as his own. He clearly sees shades of himself in young Grayson and then makes it his personal quest to capture the one responsible and promises Zucco his “undivided attention”, while Alfred questions that some time should be spent with the boy who’s just lost his family. I felt for Bruce here – he obviously knows that Dick is going through but his own quest for justice is compromised here – does he do what nobody could do for him – catch the killer responsible or help Dick move beyond his parent’s death? It’s the ultimate catch 22 for Bruce – it’s practically like choosing between Bruce and Batman. Naturally, he leaned towards Batman.

When Dick himself stopped Batman from apprehending Zucco after going after himself, he again saw shades of himself in the boy – not just the orphaned Bruce Wayne, but now, someone who wanted to take matters into his own hand just as he did when he became Batman. Not surprisingly, he takes the boy to his new home in the Batcave and sets his on the path to become Robin.


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Much like Batman’s own origin in the show, parts of Robin’s origin are shown but the full story is never revealed. It’s been said that Robin even wore the red and black Tim Drake suit originally in the show but we never see it, nor do we see his first night as Robin or even his training – by the time we see Robin in action in the show, he was already well established, much like Batman. I personally always liked this approach as I said over in the Superman retrospective – Batman’s origin was only hinted at in the show in (presumably) an attempt to keep his mystique. Plus, we already know his origin, we don’t really need to see it, everything we need to know about this shows version of Batman can be seen in On Leather’s Wings, there was no need to explain about his parents being shot, his training etc. Unlike the Burton movie, Batman was well developed enough to leave these untouched. We do see the odd flashback to his training, but only when it was necessary for the present day, like when Kyoto Ken or Zatanna returned to his life.

One of the main things they quickly established in this version of Batman is that Bruce Wayne is the mask that Batman wears. Wayne himself might as well have been gunned down with his parents – the rest of his life was devoted to and finally becoming Batman. One episode in particular questions this as Batman realises that ultimately, all the good he has done will become undone and his efforts to save the city are futile. There is much truth in this – Batman strives to fight what cannot be beaten, a mission which cannot be accomplished – he wants to rid the city of crime, but one cannot control the will of others, never mind a whole city’s worth. I Am The Night is considered by many to best character study in the show (except Maxie Zeus and Steel, they should chime in here and disagree with me!) as Bruce questions whether or not he should consider his life as Batman – I think this is an important question in the life of any superhero and am always glad to see when it is brought up – to be a superhero is to sacrifice one’s own happiness for the greater good, I think it greatly helps define someone when they question it in the pursuit of their own happiness – if you don’t believe me, just watch the outstanding Spider-Man 2, still Marvel's best movie in my humble opinion. The episode in question does a great of explaining why Batman does what he does and the difference he makes because of it. There are also some great moments with Leslie Thompkins in Crime Alley, where Bruce’s parents were murdered with Batman questioning whether or not he is a fanatic and she steers him in the right direction, as she always does.

As prior mentioned, we do see some flashbacks to Bruce’s past, one of the best being in the episode Zatanna in which we see him training with Zatara to become an escape artist. There’s an especially sweet sign in which she tries to flirt with Bruce who’s having none of it, mainly because he’s so devoted to his ideal that he still doesn’t know how to speak to girls (I recommend alcohol, but our boy Bruce doesn’t appear to be too fond of the stuff).

ZATANNA: Pick a card, I’ll tell your future. Let’s see… two of hearts?
BRUCE: Joker.
ZATANNA: It was a dumb trick anyway!

They meet up again and Zatanna realises that the ‘John Smith’ she knew is now Gotham’s guardian and realises why he was dedicated to mastering his craft but shows that even after all these years, she still cares for him.

ZATANNA: What happened that made you put this on?
BATMAN: A painful memory.



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Continuing with the subject of women, Batgirl was later introduced in the show, in a two-part story that I personally found to be incredibly tedious, in all honesty. Most of you will know that I’m none too fond of Batgirl; in fact, I liked Barbara Gordon as a character a lot more before she became Batgirl. I didn’t really mind her showing up as a supporting character every once in a while (as opposed to having her shoved down my throat like more recent times) but the sad fact is that none of the BTAS episode featuring Batgirl are very interesting. This is an incredibly slow story and features a shocking use of Two-Face who could once claim to be the shows most interesting villain. There’s some good chemistry between Robin and Batgirl but it’s nothing remarkable, much like the episode itself.

Batman gets back into fine form with The Demon’s Head, which sees comic scribe Denny O’Neil write the animated introduction to his most famous creation, Ra’s Al Guhl. I’m not Ra’s biggest fan and the episode is a little too out there for my Batman tastes, but there’s some brilliant moments for Batman himself to be found, as Ra’s kidnaps Robin in a secret attempt to see if Batman himself is worthy to lead after Ra’s demise. Unknown to both Ra’s and the audience is that Batman is ahead of Ra’s every step of the way, even deducing that it was he who kidnapped his ward in the first place. Part one is a lot more interesting than part two (which is often a little silly – Wayne just happens to have his own building in the exact same country that hosts Ra’s Lazarus Pit.) There’s great casting for Ra’s in David Warner though, 16 years later and there’s still nobody better at talent picking and directing than the legendary Andrea Romana.

Batman has such a rich supporting cast and a fantastic set of villains, especially in this cartoon, that many of them were able to take the lead in the episode on several occasions, which doesn’t really happen in cartoons much these days. For example, in Harley and Ivy, Batman barely appears. The two females are the leads, The Joker is the protagonist and Batman appears at the end to lay the smack down on the Joker before Officer Montoya apprehends Quinn and the plant lady. One such episode is A Bullet For Bullock, which sees Harvey Bullock approach the Batman for help as someone is trying to kill him. There’s a definite chemistry between Batman and Bullock as they both dislike each other immensely but admit a somewhat begrudging respect for each other. It’s simply a brilliant episode – the tone, the beautiful snow covered visuals and an intriguing look at this sheer mess of a man who is still so likeable despite being a massive jerk have made it one of those I keep revisiting since WHV finally deciding to release Batman in season sets.


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One episode that does deserve a special mention is Read My Lips. Everything about this episode is absolutely astonishing, the script, the animation, the characterisation, the staging, the acting, the music – I know writers are supposed to write in sets of threes to make a point but I could’ve kept going beyond the above mentioned six if I wanted to. It’s simply brilliant, especially Batman’s confrontation with Rhino at the beginning of the episode.

RHINO: Who you lookin' for, Bat-breath?
BATMAN: First guess is you.
RHINO: Don't get wise with me. I may not like ya!
BATMAN: You're breaking my heart, Rhino.

The episode is filled with brilliant dialogue from start to finish. While I consider Second Chance to be my favourite episode, this is the one I constantly find on my TV. I’ve always found Scarface to be a little bland in the comics, but this episode captured and improved his character perfectly. None of his following appearances came anywhere close, unfortunately. The new Scarface from the comic is shaping up nicely (thank you, Mr. Dini!).

It would be the last of the great solo Batman episodes, but certainly not the last great Batman episode. Next time around, Robin would be featured in a much more prominent role.

[Batman]

Sensational retrospective of The Dark Knight . Stu keep it up I can't wait to read more .

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Stu,

You must have spend a lot of time on this retrospective! That is so Great! :p I don't agree with everything you wrote, but you made some pretty solid points! You should be proud. :)
I wish you could do a retrospective on Superman and Justice League too,
when you have time that is. :cool:
Justice League would take us forever to discuss.......there are a lot of memebers...:anime:

[carnage89]

Stu posted his Superman retrospective here. (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197622&highlight=superman+retrospective)

[Livy1213]

Stu this is a really great write up you have. I especially found your thoughts of Bruce Wayne interesting. With superheroes I've always been interested in learning how the people behind the masks tick instead of them just being a cover for whatever alter-ego. And I think the reason for that is because I grew-up on BTAS where they actually made Bruce Wayne human and interesting in his own right (I really liked The Forgotten if only for the script and how even without memory Bruce was still a hero). I eagerly await your next installment.:)

[Stu]

With the success of Batman: The Animated Series, FOX KIDS ordered more episodes of Batman and made a mandate for the new episodes – Robin was to be featured in every episode and the show was given a new title and opening/ending credits and for it’s final 20 episodes, Batman: The Animated Series became The Adventures of Batman and Robin.

No complaints here.

The Adventures of Batman and Robin were, to me, the very best show the DCUA produced. It’s still the strongest season after all these years and is only really rivalled by the opening season of Batman Beyond and Justice League Unlimited season two. The show is virtually unchanged from B:TAS, with the exception of the models being slightly tweaked and streamlined so Batman and Bruce Wayne weren’t as chunky which only resulted in better looking episodes – this wasn’t a The Incredible Hulk and She Hulk debacle, the minor changes only lead to improvement in the quality of the show. Plus, it has this awesome title card for it's end credits.


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With most of the villains now being introduced, or in the majority of cases, already having a prior return appearances, it gave the writers a little more leeway in what they could do with the characters and resulted in a greater, deeper look at the characters, or even better, just having more fun with them. There’s no great focus on Batman himself which is fair enough in my opinion – the character had already been developed astonishingly well and now was the time to use that to tell great stories, which they did in abundance. It’s not like Batman was ignored or anything to that degree and they didn’t shove him aside to focus on Robin or worse yet, make Batman look incompetent so Robin could shine (looking at you again, Static Shock).

Bane is one of those episodes which many have been lukewarm towards since it aired – the comics pulled off a stunt in which the character broke Batman’s back and a lengthy storyline sprawled out because of it, some of it very good, some of it pretty lousy. The episode in question realised that they couldn’t have their main characters back broken but introduced him anyway in what’s actually an entertaining episode when you look at it for what it is and not an adaptation of the comic. I was especially impressed with the opening sequence with Batman and Robin chasing down Killer Croc – they later jobbed Croc to Bane but it worked well in my opinion and made Bane look more threatening rather than just make Croc look weak. I was especially impressed with Bane crushing the Batmobile with his bare hands and his Batman’s look of horror as he YouTube’d Bane’s origin in the prison. I thought the inclusion of Rupert Thorne wasn’t really necessary to the story as Candice remarks that Bane was obsessed with Batman in prison – why not just have Bane go after Batman as a challenge to himself to prove that he is an “Ultimate Warrior”. There’s some joke about Bane looking like a wrestler there but I won’t tell it (sorry Ngyma ;)). The episode has some very good fight scenes but it doesn’t compare to the next time they would match up.


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Much fun was to be had with Baby Doll and Showdown is one of the shows best episodes despite the fact it really isn’t a Batman episode, but it’s filled with such great dialogue and animation you can’t help but love it. I remember really disliking it as a kid but looking back on it now, it’s mesmerising – it leaves you craving for more Jonah Hex.

The events of Two-Face’s origin would finally get that much deserved sequel in Second Chance, which is still my favourite episode of Batman ever. It makes it onto most fan’s Top 10 list but is rarely mentioned in the same breath as Heart Of Ice, Over The Edge or Robin’s Reckoning. Shameful. The talkback is also shockingly quiet considering the episode’s brilliance.

The episode sees Harvey Dent about to undergo surgery to remove the physical scarring after the therapists believe that he finally had over the psychological damage that came with his creation. He is of course kidnapped before the operation can take place and Batman and Robin spend the episode searching the one responsible for the kidnapping. Robin goes after Rupert Thorne who one could argue is responsible for Dent’s transformation to Two-Face in the first place while Batman interrogates The Penguin who had a previous (unseen) disagreement with Two-Face months ago. No stone is left unturned in their investigation before Batman deduces that the one responsible is the one prayed it wouldn’t be – Big Bad Harv himself.

There’s a single shot of Batman in the episode that has always stuck with me, ever since I watched the episode with my brother as a young boy. The sadness on Batman’s face as he glances up at the Half Moon Club, where he and Harvey used to go before his transformation – Harvey even remarks it was the most fun they ever had. You really feel for Bruce in this episode – sympathy isn’t usually an emotion I associate with Bruce Wayne but their friendship was so well developed over the course of this and previous episodes (ignoring those silly Batgirl episodes).


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The episode simply has everything – a good mystery, great pacing, spectacular direction and animation and at the heart of it, a very good story. I don’t feel I’ve quite done the episode justice with my thoughts here – this is simply an episode you should simply watch and appreciate its brilliance that way. If you’re not tempted to get up and watch the episode now, I’ve really not done it justice.

The rest of the remaining episodes feature gems such as Riddler’s Reform, Make ‘Em Laugh (the shows funniest episode) and Deep Freeze, which sees the return of Mr. Freeze after his legendary introduction in Heart Of Ice.

There’s an especially brilliant exchange in Harley’s Holiday which sees a recently reformed Harley Quinn released from Arkham Asylum but a minor incident at a clothes shop leads to all sorts of chaos. Batman is now ready to believe that Harley is truly sane (despite the fact that is probably the most completely bonkers of all his villains) and welcomes her back to herself in the opening segment and sympathises with her at the episode’s conclusion, even though Harley herself doesn’t believe she deserves it.

HARLEY: One thing I gotta know – why’d you stay with me all day, risking your butt for someone that’s never given you anything but trouble?
BATMAN: I know what it’s like to try and rebuild a life. I had a bad day too once.

This completely contradicts Batman’s actions in Riddler’s Reform, whom Batman instantly distrusts and seems to enjoy rubbing it when he escapes his death trap.

THE RIDDLER: There’s no way you could’ve survived that explosion. How did you get out?!
BATMAN: That’s my little riddle.
THE RIDDLER: Please! You must tell me. Ok... You win. You tell me what I wanna know and I’ll tell you what you wanna know. Ok?
BATMAN: You mean, where you’ve hidden everything you’ve stolen?
THE RIDDLER: Certainly. I’ll even tell you how I committed the robberies. Deal?
Batman: ...No.

The Riddler is one of my favourite Batman villains but you can tell they really struggled with the character – despite great casting, he only appeared in a handful of episodes. The final is the finest as we really get to see that he can’t help himself – I did immensely enjoy seeing Batman tackling someone using just his brains. If you enjoyed The Riddler’s appearances in the show I’d recommend tracking down whatever Batman Adventure comics you could find that are written by Ty Templeton who really seems to love the character and comes up with some great stories. Given how far too many writers have turned him into a joke or a loser or something they use to try and show how clever they are, it’s nice to see someone genuinely appreciating the character for who he is and crafting great stories from it.

Before I move onto The New Batman Adventures, I thought I’d take a look at Batman’s animated movies in this era. Because of the shows… unique timeline, one can’t really place Mask Of The Phantasm in between any episodes as much, whereas Subzero clearly takes place after the events of Deep Freeze.

Mask Of The Phantasm was originally intended as a Direct to Video feature and the original plan was for Batman to battle all of his various rouges, much akin to the 1960’s Batman movie, in which Batman and Robin were pitted against The Joker, The Penguin, The Riddler and Catwoman. I believe the story was changed at Alan Burnett’s intervention and the original idea later became the episode Trial, which soon became the subject of a love/hate relationship with audiences. (I personally like it).

The new idea for the Batman movie was to take a deeper look at Batman’s origin, his romance and his feud with his sworn arch nemesis, The Joker.

The story starts with Batman being framed for murdering various mob bosses and the love of his life before he became Batman returning to Gotham City. The romances in the Batman show were never really all that interesting to me – I think all the Catwoman episodes are remarkably tedious and never really thought much to Talia – Batman obviously never had a steady relationship with anyone in the show (although Perchance To Dream indicates he would’ve like to with Selena Kyle, minus her Catwoman identity) but Andrea was different and her loss adds so much more to Bruce’s character. I like my Batman human, the biggest flaw to the Batman mythos is the fact that Bruce Wayne has largely been a totally useless character. When he is above all feelings – remorse for the criminals around him, the women in his life or even his own happiness, I quickly lose interest in the character. I understand that Bruce Wayne is merely a disguise but there has to be ‘man’ in Batman for me there has to be some resemblance of a normal person in there. I personally love it when the character’s feelings get in the way of their mission (see the above post about the “hero no more” storyline, and the aforementioned brilliance of Spider-Man 2).


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The flashback aspects of the film are it’s most interesting parts – as Alan Burnett said when I interviewed him about his work on Batman (here (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/btas/backstage/interviews/burnett.php)) this is Bruce Wayne’s story. We see that Bruce has completed his training and has now returned to Gotham with plans to fight crime and save the city – he just doesn’t know how he plans to do it yet. He visits his parent’s grave, possibly searching for inspiration and instead finds a kindred spirit speaking to her Mother’s grave about her life. Bruce seems a little wigged out by the young lady but he isn’t exactly the most socially constructed of men – his conversation with her simply confuses him until he finds something he can relate to her with – talking to his dead parents.

ANDRERA: Hey, I’m not the only one who talks to their loved ones y’know.
BRUCE: I didn’t say anything.
ANDREA: It’s just that when I talk to her out loud, I can imagine how she’d reply. I can hear her – like she’s right there.
BRUCE: I talked to my parents.
ANDREA: What’d you say?
BRUCE: I made a vow.
ANDREA: What vow?
BRUCE: A secret one.
ANDREA: Ooh, a man of mystery. Have you kept your vow?
BRUCE: So far.

Their relationship then develops as he struggles to continue with his path as the people he fights aren’t afraid of him – a man dressed in black with a ski mask doesn’t exactly cause people to cower in fear. Bruce is conflicted between his “plan” and his feelings for her. He later decides to hell with his plan and proposes, she accepts but problems between Andrea, her Father and the mob get in the way and she leaves. The next scene sees Bruce finally don his cape and cowl and become Gotham’s guardian.

With her Father killed by a pre-Joker 'Jack Neaper' she returned to Gotham to avenge his death and once again became involved with Bruce. It’s strange to see Batman like he is in the film, obviously bitter towards her for leaving him in the way she did without any real explanation. A sadness runs through him as he spies on her while she is having dinner with Arthur Reeves which transforms into the bitterness when they actually speak again, after she had deduced that Bruce is Batman when she caught Batman visiting Bruce Wayne’s parents grave. Interesting that she should meet both Bruce Wayne and Batman in the exact same place.

After questioning her on a photograph of her Father and various mobsters, she returns the bitterness towards him in this very harsh exchange.


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BATMAN: You still following your Dad’s rules?
ANDREA: The way I see it, the only one here controlled by his parents is you.

They later reconcile as Batman is hunted down by the police for crimes she was committing as Phantasm and she rescues him. Unaware that Phantasm and Andrea are the same person, Batman continues his investigation and finally deduces who is behind Phantasm’s mask when Arthur Reeves reveals that he sold Andrea’s Father out to the mob. Batman goes to her apartment and the first thing he does is look in her wardrobe, presumably for a Phantasm costume but instead gets a phone call from The Joker who has actually figured the whole thing out before the world’s greatest detective did.

The movie ends with Batman battling The Joker in their best ever fight before Andrea interferes and teleports herself and Joker away, presumably to their doom. The Batman And Robin Adventures Annual #1 reveals that she let him escape and acts as a sequel to this story – it’s also bloody brilliant. I won’t spoil it for you here, see if your local comic shop or ebay has a copy of it, it is well worth looking out for if you’re a fan of the movie. It’s every bit as brilliant as this movie itself, which is the highest compliment one can pay the book.


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It would be criminal not to mention Kevin Conroy here - the man outdid himself for MOTP and but in a wonderful performance for a broken hearted Bruce Wayne, both in the 'now' and his time as a younger man. It's clearly not just a case of reading the script as the director tells him to - Conroy truly understands the character he is playing and better yet, from all the interviews we've seen with him, he appreciates the depth of the character.

I’ve gone this long without speaking in any detail about this incarnation of The Joker – it is absolutely brilliant. The chemistry between Batman and The Joker here is astoundingly good and The Joker himself has starred in more than his fair share of classic episodes. They were never quite consistent with The Joker in either his looks or his character – he would frequently contradict himself throughout the shows run but was constantly entertaining throughout. Batman himself best defines The Joker’s frequent change of characterisation.

“Normal criminals have logical motives, but The Joker’s insane schemes make sense to him alone.”

The movie does so much to shape Bruce into Batman – origin stories can usually be tedious affairs but this one adds a whole new dimension to Batman’s character without ruining the original story and taking away the integrity of the character. You can see why he spurns most of the women he meets advances following this story – none of the other romances in the show (or comics, or films, for that matter) really compare to this one.

Christ, I nearly went through a retrospective without mentioning how brilliant Mark Hamill is as The Joker. He is sensational in the role - the finest casting of all the villains in the show. I would even say he's the finest casting that the brilliant Andrea Romano has ever done (the only other one that stands up there is Conroy himself.) He's still got it too, as he's recently returned to the role in the awesome Arkham Asylum video game. As with Conroy, anyone who voices The Joker now will only ever be considered as second best to Hamill. He is that good.

Now then, with Phantasm out of the way, we’ll move onto to Subzero… wasn’t as impressed with this one. It adds nothing to Batman’s character so we don’t go into great lengths for it. It’s a perfectly enjoyable film and it looks great – the animation is top notch throughout and even the CGI is impressive, which wasn’t the case in just about every cartoon at the time (bar Reboot, but that was fully 3D). Even the pesky Robin model looked better than ever before. This is Mr. Freeze’s story and neither Batman nor Bruce Wayne are present much. It does great things for Mr. Freeze and Dick Grayson’s relationship with Barbara Gordon but this is Batman’s thread and here, he was upstaged by his happy sidekicks.

And after this, we would get even more sidekicks. But as they say, things change…

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Really great thread! :)

[supergirl's pal]

I can still remember the day I was entralled when I saw Mask of the Phantasm in the theater. I hope someday they will release a special edition DVD with a director's commentary and a retrospective of how and why the movie was made the way it was.

[seryass]

This is a fascinating read Stu. Very well thought out and written. Of course every one has their own opinions and consequently I found myself both disagreeing and agreeing with things you mentioned. The former more on minor little things such as casting and the character of Robin. The latter on the Burton films as I too find Batman Returns to be far superior to the original.

Also it's refreshing to meet people that have intelligent debates and are considerably more open to various forms of media. I've seen so many forums that continually have fans bashing/flaming each other on which company, Marvel or DC, has the better output in much the same way that Doctor Who/Star Trek fans are at each others throats. I find myself usually asking what's wrong with liking both? Certainly in the case of Marvel and DC at any rate. I loved watching both Batman: The Animated Series and X-Men when I was growing up. I won't deny that I preferred Batman and tend to prefer DC shows but that still doesn't mean I don't enjoy certain Marvel shows such as X-Men and Spider-Man: The Animated Series.

One thing I do want to mention as well is the comics. I loved the Batman Adventures comics and bought every issue when I was growing up but to call it canon is a little shaky. When a show enters another medium continuity problems can arise and fans tend to bicker about it. Again it's all down to personal opinions of course. What one fans deems is canon another fan may decry. Personally I like a lot of the comics and I would consider most, but not all, part of the actual animated continuity but that doesn't make it official. This in turn has a lot of parallels with the Doctor Who TV series. As there are many audios and books amongst other spin-offs continuity can again, and has indeed been, a problem. Therefore the majority tend to agree that the actual canon regarding the series is really ONLY the series and anything else is open to debate. The same could also be said for the DCAU.

For instance the Justice League Adventures caused certain problems with characters. One of the issues I had the most problems with was bringing back the character of Aresia who I feel should have been left alone. Her story was a nice one-off and I feel it had a good ending. In addition in the comic both she and the Flash are particularly acting out of character.

Aside from that though I do still like some of the comics but for different reasons.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the New Batman Adventures.

[CyclonatorZ]

Absolutely fabulous retrospective, especially since you're willing to write about BTAS without making it seem like it's absolutely perfect. I'm sure that some people would have a hard time doing a similar retrospective without showering it with endless praise and no meaningful criticism. The fact that you're giving examples of both good and bad episodes shows that you truly are trying to do as fair and balanced a presentation as possible

I'll be continuing to follow this as it unfolds - I've already learned several things about the show's history that I didn't know before, and I'm eager to learn some more. ;)

[Stu]

Superman: The Animated Series arrived on Kids WB! to great critical but little commercial success in 1996. The majority of the same creative team from Batman: The Animated Series worked on Superman and where again brought back when FOX KIDS lost the rights to air Batman and KWB decided it was once again time to return to Gotham City.

They wanted a different version of what’d we’d seen though – they wanted Batman training younger sidekicks. With Batman And Robin in and out of theatres at the time of the shows production, Batgirl was ordered to be a prominent character due to her inclusion in the aforementioned mess of a film. The creative team expressed a desire to bring in a younger Robin that was apparently forbidden over at Fox, which lead to Tim Drake being brought into the show which of course meant that Nightwing was now free to use – it was a natural evolution for Dick Grayson.

Timm also expressed a desire to revamp the visuals of the old show, as he personally felt that Superman’s more angular designs made for better animation and overall, less screw ups and a nicer looking show. The animation studio’s requested that the dark Deco look be dropped due to the production problems it caused and the backgrounds were now drawn/painted on traditional white paper. I believe the shows look also meant it was a lot cheaper to produce than B: TAS.


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Each and every character was redesigned, some more radical than others. This has led to numerous Internet debates as to which designs are better (look through the forum, you’ll find dozens of threads discussing this very topic). It’s just a matter of personal taste in the end – I personally prefer the Batman: TAS designs because the mood and atmosphere is still present in each episode even when the episode’s animation falters. There’s some bad looking episodes of TAS sure and the frequently changing Batman model was very cumbersome, especially when they couldn’t get Batman’s nose right – the beak simply annoyed the hell out of me. It was fixed by the time we got to the AOBAR but some of the earlier episodes are a little jarring but when they got it right, I prefer it to TNBA visuals.

Batman’s model himself is very fitting with his character this time around – this is a much darker Batman who is obviously a little more world weary and some would argue bitter and his design reflects that. He’s a lot bigger than we’ve previously seen him and there’s nothing to him colour wise, it’s a powerful mix of black and grey. I especially like the cape and how it drapes over his shoulders – it looks more like a shroud than an actual cape this time around and it’s such a cool visual seeing it blow in the wind. I missed the yellow oval initially but now I can’t really imagine the character with it – there is something so sleek and sexy about the design, it’s one of my favourites from TNBA. It also popped on screen next to Tim Drake’s super cool Robin design – if there’s such as visual chemistry, these two had it. It’s still the coolest Robin costume I’ve ever seen twelve years on (although I do like Damian's new costume - didn't care for the revamped Tim Drake look, which clearly took it's inspiration from this show).

While we are on the subject of sidekick designs, I must express my disappointment towards the shows Nightwing model. Admittedly, his comic costume isn’t that great to being with but this one is just so dull – the mullet was a silly idea (when has a mullet ever been a good idea?!) but the costume is so plain… it doesn’t pop. There’s no spark to it – Spider-Man’s black costume is relatively similar but manages to look so much sexier than DG’s new digs. Most of the designs work for a simple two colour look – Batman is black and grey, Robin is red and black, Riddler is green and purple – it works in most cases but I personally felt some of them could’ve done with a little more colour – The Joker needed a bit of orange in there in my opinion – I’d have preferred it over his green shirt but that’s personal preference. For the majority of the characters though, it looked really, really sharp.


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The opening episode is only the opening episode because of WB and their air date gaffs, and if memory serves, The World’s Finest 3 part story was designed to reintroduce Batman to WB audiences but they aired TNBA first. Due to the above, we’ll skip to the shows actual opening, Sins Of The Fathers and things have certainly changed since the last time Batman was seen on TV. Robin is no longer around and Batman has found himself a new sidekick in Batgirl. The episode is a little rushed for my liking and to be honest, it lacks that something special that it needed to have – the death of Tim Drake’s Father is glossed over, Tim ascension into Robin lacks the integrity that it deserved and the use of Two-Face here is horrendous – Batman’s most personal villain is turned into a two-bit hood and an uninteresting one at that.

The writer Rich Fogel doesn’t seem to push the story, it literally reeks of getting past this story so they can carry on with the rest of the show which doesn’t work for me – this should’ve been an episode to tug on the heart strings before it’s glorious finale with Tim and his new family. Speaking of family, while Dick Grayson’s return is the highlight of the episode, it makes no sense in the grand scheme of things – if Dick hated Bruce as much as he claims to, why would he return to Wayne Manor? It’s a cool fanboy moment, but Nightwing was a difficult character to figure out during TNBA but I’ll get to that when I write about Old Wounds.

Cold Comfort sees the return of Mr. Freeze and does a complete 180 with his character – still dead to emotion even after the return of his wife, Victor begins randomly destroying lives in an effort to extinguish hope. It’s too much of a change for me – I doubt they could’ve left a character as popular as Mr. Freeze alone (especially after his miserable appearance in Batman and Robin) and I’m sure they were limited in what options they could’ve taken with the character but I was never that impressed with the episode. Thankfully, it did help set up Meltdown in Batman Beyond, which whooped all kinds of ass.

Speaking of whooping ass, let’s talk about Never Fear. With the exception of Over The Edge, this is by far the best TNBA has to offer. A fascinating look at Batman’s character and fear in general – the episode works on so many levels and believe it or not, is one of the few episodes that allows Batman to truly shine in his own right.


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After being subjected to The Scarecrow’s upgraded fear gas Batman finds himself as a man without fear and begins to acting reckless and in some scenes, pretty creepy. Watch how he ruthlessly kills the alligators in his pursuit of The Scarecrow and his fight with Scarecrow’s goons in the hall in which he conducts his speech about fear and it’s paralysing effects with little regard for his or their safety. Perhaps I’m so fond of the episode because it is very reminiscent of Spider-Man: The Animated Series’ The Alien Costume in which Spider-Man finds himself in a new suit which effects his emotion and amplifies his aggression and confidence. They even share the exact same line when interrogating the villains for information about whom they work for. “Who said anything about jail?”

It was weird seeing Batman so mad, especially towards Robin after he ties him up. There was great chemistry to be found between this version of Batman and Robin despite how few times they appeared together.

I suppose now is a good time to talk about one of my bigger problems with TNBA – it contradicts itself quite frequently, especially when it comes to Nightwing. He seems to go from being one of Batman’s crew to hating him and show little regard for Barbara – one or the other would be fine, or even better one then the other. Old Wounds explains a lot of it – when Robin punches Batman and then quits, it’s one of the shows most powerful moments, especially as he was probably right to do it. Then we get a wonderful moment in which Bruce redeems himself and admits he was wrong (without ever saying it, admitting fault is unbecoming of a man of Batman’s stature) when he gives Connor a job. After seeing this, Nightwing decides it’s time to reunite with Bruce and he and Robin swing off into the batsignal – not showing their reunion of sorts was an odd choice – this is something we should’ve seen, especially as Bruce and Dick seem quite chummy in Animal Act – they glossed over Tim Drake’s origin and don’t even show us this? Rich Fogel again wrote this one – one couldn’t help but feel we’d have had a much stronger show if Paul Dini, Alan Burnett or Stan Berkowitz penned these two episodes. It seems such a waste.

We’d see more of the wonderful dynamic between Batman and Robin in Growing Pains, which is defiantly one of the shows highlights. It’s got everything, a great story, a fast pace and absolutely stunning animation from TMS. I surely can’t be the only one to notice that the episodes with Batman and Robin at the helm are much more entertaining than anything with Batgirl and Nightwing can I? There’s nothing to Batman and Batgirl’s relationship – there’s no chemistry (yet) and Batman and Nightwing was just confusing, for the reasons stated above. Is it just me? Is my bias towards Batman and Robin getting in the way of judging the show fairly?


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Over The Edge sees Batman’s world falls apart as Batgirl falls to her death and her Father Commissioner Gordon discovers his secret identity and embarks on a vendetta against Batman and his crime fighting comrades, forcing his way into the Batcave and attempting to kill Batman and Robin. Realising his own attempts aren’t getting him anywhere, Gordon strikes a deal with Bane to apprehend The Batman if he releases him from Stone Gate and sets a trap for Batman at Barbara’s funeral, giving the best fight scene in Batman’s animated history. His throw down with Bane is absolutely brutal and stands out in a show that had brilliant fight scenes even on it’s off days – the smack downs were one of the highlights of the entire program.

I never saw what the big deal was that it was just a nightmare – the 20 minutes preceding the story were utterly astonishing, it had the best animation to ever grace The New Batman Adventures and to me, it’s the unquestioned highlight of the show, Second Chance is it’s only competition when it comes to the best ever episode in my opinion. Some fanboys still complain about the only a dream scenario – that’s the whole point of dream/illusion/nightmare episodes – to offer something completely different without having to deal with the cumbersome ties to reality.

The New Batman Adventures never topped this episode, dream or not. In fact, for the remaining half of the show, none of them even came close.

[aiwac]

Very nice. I completely agree that they blew it when it came to developing Nightwing, so much so that I still can't make heads nor tails of him.

In light of your apathy towards Batgirl, I would be curious to know your opinion of her as the Commish in BB. This Barbara seems much more interesting and compelling as a character (though I think she channels a lot of her frustrations against Bruce on Terry...).

One dissension, though:


In fact, for the remaining half of the show, none of them even came close.

Really? Not even "Legends of the Dark Knight" or "Mad Love"?

[Stu]

The second season of The New Batman Adventures started on a very strong note – the episode was one I didn’t initially enjoy when I first watched it but have grown to love more each time I see it. Not only does it offer us something brilliantly refreshing in the form of it’s original villain Roxy Rocket, but words struggle to explain it’s charm – this one is simply fun to watch over and over again. The Ultimate Thrill never quite gets the praise it deserves – there’s nothing ground breaking here sure, but it’s unquestionably one of the shows better efforts. If I hadn’t have seen Meltdown, I might have even called it the late Hilary J. Badar’s finest script and there’s definite sexual chemistry between Batman and Roxy – much more evident and entertaining here than any Catwoman or Talia episode.

All this, and the most bad ass scene in Batman’s animated history. Hoping to learn the location of his latest baddie, The Dark Knight approaches one of his oldest enemies for the skinny on her.

The Penguin surely deserves his own paragraph – I was pretty unimpressed with The Master of Fowl Play in Batman: The Animated Series but the revamped show took an inspired twist and made him a legitimate business man running a crooked club/restaurant. I’m not certain if having The Penguin run the Iceberg Lounge was taken from the comics or if the comics took it from this show or not but regardless, it’s a stroke of sheer brilliance. Penguin gets a much more fitting redesign but keeps the unquestioned highlight of the TAS version – the wonderful Paul Williams continues to portray him.

There’s something electric about Batman and Penguin’s confrontation here – it just might be my favourite scene in the history of the show.


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“It’s time you and I had a talk… just like old times”

It’s a shame from such a strong opening, a long string of mediocre or just plain bad episodes followed – Critters, Cult Of The Cat, Animal Act (which only adds to the confusion of the Batman/Nightwing relationship, which is then explained in Old Wounds, which pretty much contradicts all of Nightwing’s prior appearances in the show). This string is thankfully cut short with the addition of the excellent Legends Of The Dark Knight to the series, which features 3 incredibly irritating children explain to each other the urban legend that is Batman and their stories are dramatically different from each other. Featuring tributes to the works of Dick Sprang, Bill Finger and Frank Miller, LOTDK is a remarkably entertaining look at how different Batman has been portrayed throughout his long career in the comic books. A special nod must go to the old school Joker design (which is ironically one of the coolest looking Joker’s we’ve seen in animation – possibly even better than his TAS model) and brilliant casting of Michael Ironside as the aged Dark Knight. If they ever get around to doing that The Dark Knight Returns DTV, they simply must cast Ironside in the roll again. I doubt even the most fickle of fanboys would complain about Kevin Conroy’s absence if Ironside were to return (unlike now, where God himself could be cast as Batman and people would still complain that Conroy is better.)


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The last few episodes of TNBA features nothing remarkable – considering Bruce gets married in one of these episodes and we finally get our ‘Batman no more!’ storyline, one can only consider it a crushing disappointment. Chemistry needed two episodes to fully develop the story – the romance is too rushed, we’ve not time to become interested in Susan, never mind like her as we did Andrea and considering that he was willing to give up Batman, in essence, contradict his entire character, one would think it would be worth a better look, but alas, he meets someone, marries her and then deduces something is not quite right (in a very silly way too, one might add) and is single and whooping ass again in less than half an hour. Considering how well Mask Of The Phantasm looked at Bruce Wayne’s heart and his pursuit of happiness over his all consuming need for vengeance, Chemistry really can’t be considered anything other than a crushing waste of a fantastic opportunity. I covered it over in the Superman retrospective but there’s a brilliant twist in World’s Finest when Lois falls for Bruce Wayne but detests Batman. There’s definite chemistry there as their romance is given time to develop rather than be incredibly rushed as his relationship with Susan was – the romance between Bruce and Lois was a lot more interesting than the one between her and Clark. They even have a nice little reunion in a later Superman episode where Batman expresses his regret that it ended like it did.

Judgement Day again disappoints – Bruce’s friendship with Harvey is barely mentioned and well, the plot is too predictable to fully enjoy it. Strange (nice?) to see Batman without sidekicks and his conversations with Alfred in the Batcave where very reminiscent of the old B: TAS days and Alfred is back to his dry best.

"I wasn't aware that the police evidence room had a lending policy.”

Such a disappointing end to Two-Face’s story – I’d have given your left nut for an ending similar to Batman And Robin Adventures #1+2 or hell, leave it at Second Chance. On a similar note, if you’ve not read the aforementioned comics, they are some of Paul Dini’s finest and you should check Ebay for them right now. Great pencils from Ty Templeton too!


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So that was The New Batman Adventures. Some very strong stuff along with a lot of mediocrity because the writing wasn’t quite up to The Adventures of Batman and Robin quality – most people seem either torn on the visuals but I always thought TNBA’s writing let it down most of all. It’s a shame because when it was good, it was really, really good. I suppose when you’re producing three shows at once a quality dip is expected. TNBA was cancelled in favour of a new Batman show, as Kids WB! thought that Batman had been on the air a little too long, and I imagine something about the dismal failure of the live action movie had something to do with it. But alas, while TNBA was cancelled and Batman Beyond continued the DCU into the future.

[seryass]

The last few episodes of TNBA features nothing remarkable – considering Bruce gets married in one of these episodes and we finally get our ‘Batman no more!’ storyline, one can only consider it a crushing disappointment. Chemistry needed two episodes to fully develop the story – the romance is too rushed, we’ve not time to become interested in Susan, never mind like her as we did Andrea and considering that he was willing to give up Batman, in essence, contradict his entire character, one would think it would be worth a better look, but alas, he meets someone, marries her and then deduces something is not quite right (in a very silly way too, one might add) and is single and whooping ass again in less than half an hour. Considering how well Mask Of The Phantasm looked at Bruce Wayne’s heart and his pursuit of happiness over his all consuming need for vengeance, Chemistry really can’t be considered anything other than a crushing waste of a fantastic opportunity.

I have to respectfully partly disagree with this. The romance between Susan and Bruce wasn't the problem really. It's mentioned in the episode that Ivy had coated all the victim's mates with pheromones which explains why all the victims fell in love with their respective mates so quickly. As a result this also explains why Bruce was so easily willing to give up his identity as Batman. Whereas in Mask of Phantasm he was in full possession of his faculties this was not the case in Chemistry.

What I feel did let the story down somewhat was the lack of any depth to Susan's character for the audience. The scenes with her and Bruce later would seem to suggest that the audience might feel some sympathy for her as opposed to the violent relationship between Michael and Veronica Vreeland. Alas we weren't really given much of a view of Susan and I think that does let the story down somewhat.

It also doesn't explain the actions of the supporting characters in the story. Whilst the argument for Bruce can be made (he wasn't in full control of himself) the same cannot be said for the others. It's strange that neither Dick, Tim or more prominently Alfred or Barbara never questioned his rash actions.

[Wonderwall]

Nice stuff Stu. Good to see another person love the Ultimate Thrill as much as I do, I mean it's a fun story, fun character, nice set pieces, amazing animation, lot of innuendo that somehow made it through. It's one of my favorites. I kind of agree with the notion that the writing kind of let TNBA down at times, and not the designs. Although I'm more forgiving of these faults.

I've also noticed Stu...you really don't like kids:p

[Stu]

I have to respectfully partly disagree with this. The romance between Susan and Bruce wasn't the problem really. It's mentioned in the episode that Ivy had coated all the victim's mates with pheromones which explains why all the victims fell in love with their respective mates so quickly. As a result this also explains why Bruce was so easily willing to give up his identity as Batman. Whereas in Mask of Phantasm he was in full possession of his faculties this was not the case in Chemistry.

What I feel did let the story down somewhat was the lack of any depth to Susan's character for the audience. The scenes with her and Bruce later would seem to suggest that the audience might feel some sympathy for her as opposed to the violent relationship between Michael and Veronica Vreeland. Alas we weren't really given much of a view of Susan and I think that does let the story down somewhat.

I see your points - it's all basically summed up to the episode being too rushed. Long delayed romances and will they/won't they relationships are always are usually the best kind (as long as they aren't too long, of course) - rushing one in in 22 minutes isn't going to convince anyone. As I mentioned, I didn't think the way Bruce deduced treatery was afoot was too clever either. [/quote]


It also doesn't explain the actions of the supporting characters in the story. Whilst the argument for Bruce can be made (he wasn't in full control of himself) the same cannot be said for the others. It's strange that neither Dick, Tim or more prominently Alfred or Barbara never questioned his rash actions.

That was another weak point of it. Grayson mentions that'll he be back in the costume before the end of the month, but the fact no one seemed to give him any sings of warning about it was another perplexing admission. You'd think one of them would at least bring up the idea of telling her that he's Batman would've been raised. This could've been a lot better all around if it were stretched to a two-part story.


Nice stuff Stu. Good to see another person love the Ultimate Thrill as much as I do, I mean it's a fun story, fun character, nice set pieces, amazing animation, lot of innuendo that somehow made it through. It's one of my favorites. I kind of agree with the notion that the writing kind of let TNBA down at times, and not the designs. Although I'm more forgiving of these faults.

Thanks - it was a grower but there's something oddly compelling about the episode and Roxy herself oozes... something, there's a definate spark there. She even has it in her brief cameo in Knight Time. Has she made it to the mainstream comics yet?

I don't think the designs are anything to do with why I don't think TNBA is as good as BTAS, you're right. I think the designs are pretty cool, well, most of them. Again, the writing lets a lot of it down - the foundation between a lot of the characters is laid out in some of the lesser episodes, which reflect in later appearances. None of them besides Batman seem to have any arc - not showing the reunion between Batman and Nightwing after Old Wounds really hurt the show, in my opinion.


I've also noticed Stu...you really don't like kids :p

Haha, I think you're right. 'Cept Robin of course. ;)

[Stu]

With Batman having served his time on Kids WB!, they felt the franchise could use freshening up in order to make it more relatable to teen audiences and Timm and his crew were presented with a problem that was to become the basis for a new show – a teenage Batman. The thought of a teenage Bruce Wayne simply doesn’t work, there’s no logical way around that problem unless he is simply that – Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Given the enormous merchandising potential that comes with Batman’s market recognition, taking Batman out of the equation wasn’t a profitable answer, so alas, we come to a whole different idea – someone else under the cowl. But if someone else is Batman, where does that leave Bruce Wayne? Whatever happened to Gotham’s Guardian? No longer fighting crime, Bruce became a recluse. With no family, no real friends to speak of and his main reason for living taken away from him, Bruce retired to his mansion, alone.

There’s a spectacular scene in Rebirth that shows his final night as Batman. Interestingly, it wasn’t a dynamic fight with one of his illustrious rouges gallery – Batman’s final fight is with punks who got lucky. With his heart failing him, Batman resorts to pulling a gun on the crook in an effort to save his own life – he has become that which he fought against. After scaring the crap out of said crook, he hangs up his suit and vows never to be Batman again. I think this scene is one of the most important scenes in the characters history – as Bruce Wayne is the disguise, for him to give up being Batman it would have to be something serious – him just getting old and worn out wouldn’t have washed. This works perfectly – beyond killing Batman, I can’t think of a better reason for him to be Batman no more. It’s just perfect.


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With that, we move into the future and meet the new Batman, Terry McGuiness. The odds of Terry being a likeable character were astronomically small going into the show as every attempt to replace Bruce Wayne as Batman has become as popular as a fart in an elevator – making a teenager become Batman wasn’t going to please many fanboys.

Cry me a river.

Terry was instantly likeable in that he was something different – he wasn’t a nerd or unpopular – he was a relatively normal guy, very likeable but aggressive. His aggression wasn’t an annoyance – it actually made him more likeable as bizarre as that sounds. He obviously lacked discipline which is something most of us can sympathise with, but you can see that he’s trying to do better. Given how most teenagers are nothing other than annoying, egotistical whiners in most shows, it was refreshing to see someone with a smart mouth who was actually likeable.

The new, futuristic scenario gave the artists a great opportunity to really push the envelope with the visuals. Gone were the crumbling buildings of Bruce’s day, they were replaced with unique buildings which really added a great touch to making Gotham different from what it once was – it was now a corrupt, corporate playground rather than a war zone. Batman truly was fighting a different kind of villain. It was covered in a beautiful purple background – once again Gotham City was a visual delight. Fittingly, the only thing which looks old in the show is Wayne Manor which doesn’t appear to have much decoration since Bruce’s heyday. Guess he still thinks of it as his Dad’s house.

The models were a step up from The New Batman/Superman Adventures in my opinion as they seemed a little more willing to break away from the ‘moulds’ so to speak. Batman’s new costume doesn’t pop as well as I’d have liked – I think the mask and red bat embalm work well but the grey doesn’t really add a lot to the suit, it can come across as a little dull looking. The best the suit ever looked is in a shot in the opening credits as Batman runs towards the camera. It’s a good design, but it’s not an outstanding one, which comes as a surprise – most of the villains have some of the most original, spectacular designs I’ve ever come across. They just pop – visually, this show was always a delight. It’s been said that the models were designed and then the characters were given their backgrounds/gimmicks, so the writers had something to work with besides a name and their own imagination. They really were given free reign here and BS+P didn't really get in the way either - every single punch in this show looks like it hurt and there's more than a few shots of crimson liquid dripping from Batman's mouth in this season.


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The music was given a revamp as well - gone where the classical scores of old, replaced with banging thuds from the future - it works, which surprised most (even Timm).

The opening season has more of a continuing arc than most as both Bruce and Terry learn that bad things happen when good people do nothing as their city has become overrun with crime once again led by Wayne Powers CEO Derek Powers and gang members calling themselves The Jokerz after a certain agent of anarchy from back in the day. I always liked the idea of The Jokerz, and would’ve liked to see a little more of them. I think an origin story for them could’ve been great, but alas, not to be. Bruce and Terry meet as Terry ends up in a throw down with one of the Joker gangs on Bruce’s property and the old man helps him out, which eventually leads to him inviting Terry into the mansion who discovers a bet trapped in the clock entrance to the Batcave (nice touch). Following the death of his Father at the hands of Powers, Terry breaks into the mansion and steals the batsuit and Batman is reborn.

Wayne is super pissed when he learns his suit has been pinched as Terry comes to grips with the suit and the new wonders it presents. After laying waste to Gotham's version of Storm troopers, Wayne demands the suit back. Terry reasons with him by telling him the guy who murdered his Dad is the one he wants to stop. See, the writers still get Bruce Wayne, even if they did make him an old man (which did piss off a lot of fanboys at the time - some of them couldn't get their heads round that he might either give up as Batman or not die trying to rid Gotham of crime).

The story ends on a bizarre creepy note - instead of having Terry take to the sky in a glorious moment as Batman, we get an introduction to Derek Powers alter ego instead, who has now mutated thanks to his run in with radiation, courtesy of our new Batman.

The series is more of a villain of the week affair that Batman: TAS was but there's several ongoing storyline to keep things fresh, while still giving Batman new villains to fight - Wayne's feud with Powers, Terry's romantic problems with Dana and his struggle to be both Batman and Terry. Truth be told, each episode is nothing short of absolutely outstanding. When we did the polls to vote which episode of this show was best, I remember thinking each and everyone of these episodes is a 5 star showcase. We even manage to get a nice send off to Mr. Freeze, the one villain who could feasibly still be a threat in our new Gotham (along with 'immortal' Ra's Al Guhl, but I'll come to him later.)

Speaking of people from the past, Barbara Gordon is introduced as the Commissioner in a nice touch. Rather than have her love Terry's attempts to clean up the city or outright resent him, Barbara plays middle ground and Terry must earn her respect - it added another interesting relationship to a show bursting with brilliant characters.

In terms of new villains, there's an awesome gallery of rouges, worthy of the original Batman show and then some. One can't deny there's some remarkable similarities to Spider-Man's villains, more than enough to be of coincidence to me, but an amazing villain is an amazing villain and this show was chock-full of them - Spellbinder, Shreik, Inque - you name it, they were a fine match for our new Batman. There's even a great Amazing Spider-Man #33 in Heroes, which itself is a fine tribute to The Fantastic Four which more than pleased the FF fanboy in me. It's received a mixed reaction (compare my praise the episode review on the WF website and you'll see what I mean!)


http://marvel.toonzone.net/retrospective/ff/14.jpg

The show was batting 1000 from the word go for me - it was much, much better than The New Batman/Superman Adventures in my opinion.

One of the best fanboy moments ever in the DCU comes in Disappearing Inque as Terry is kidnapped by the title villain as Bruce rescues Terry. The reveal of his new big ass Batsuit and the old BTAS theme haunting him in the background was one of the finest moments the show ever had.

All good things must come to end, but this season went out with a bang as Powers skin can no longer take the vast amounts of radiation his body is producing and his sanity begins escaping him and he asks his son, Paxton Powers for help. It was a fantastic swansong for the season, which stands out as one of the best the show ever did. For the old school fanboys, there's a great nod to the original Dark Knight in this one, look out your window and see. The final scene has an air of ambiguous about it, with Paxton now realising he's made an enemy of Batman and his Father.

Paxton: So, he melted with the sub.
Batman. ...sure he did.

Overall, outstanding. Buffy meets Batman works astonishingly well. But for how long?

[Shredhead]

Love this retrospective its also great since I just watched Batman the Animated series the whole way through recently so I can compare my thoughts and feelings for the show with this. I gotta say we got some simular views I also agree about Barbra being a better character when not Batgirl loved her in Batman Beyond.

[Wonderwall]

Another good addition, was the perfect age when Batman Beyond first premiered so I'm very fond of it and Terry was a character I could relate to so I guess WB got what they wanted:p. I also grew to kinda mold quite a bit of my personality on aspects of Terry while I was growing up.

I'll always remember catching the last 5 minutes of it and wondering "WHOA why is Bruce so old now?!" Good times. Also add in a third that liked Barbara better here than as Batgirl. She has more of a personality and a more interesting role, she's tough but not a hard ass which is a trap a lot of shows and movies fall into with female characters if they aren't a super sweet type.

[Livy1213]

I remember watching the WB promos for Batman Beyond before it came out. I was only 11 at the time but I thought it looked like complete crap. A Batman that wasn't Bruce? And a teenage one, at that? In the future!? There was no where else to go but down. How I was so wrong and I'm glad for it. Terry is still one of my favorite DCAU characters and Batman Beyond is my favorite series. It's still tragic how it was cut short. I would have at least liked another movie (Please Bruce T.! If you're reading this, another BB movie would be great!) before the show disappeared all together.

[Stu]

One of the most impressive things about Batman Beyond when comparing it to the previous Batman/Superman cartoons is that out of costume, Terry McGuiness was far more interesting than Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent. The show had it all - it looks and sounded great, the writing was top notch (especially considering every cartoons airing at the time this show was on the air was completely crap), and it's characters were bursting with energy. Naturally, Kids WB! could have none of this and changes were made to meet more target demographics than it's previous season. The target of course, being 4-16 year olds. Naturally, geniuses that they are, they decided that giving Batman a female sidekick was exactly what this show needed to attract more male viewers.

No, I don't get it either.

Either way, Max Gibson became pretty much the main supporting character in season two - overshadowing everyone bar Batman - Bruce, Dana, the villains. As you can imagine by the venomous wording of this post, I loathe Max with every fibre of my being. She completely dominated the show and worse still, she often did it by making Terry look like a complete idiot. The show became more and more high school, often focusing on more tales about Hamilton Hill High and Terry's classmates than a corrupt city. While the show was still highly enjoyable, there was a humongous dip in quality and it's 13/13 track record wasn't going to stand the test of time - there's more than a few stinkers to be found here.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/bios/maxgibson/08.jpg

The majority of the new villains don't match up to season one's efforts and some episodes are just really stoopid. The majority of the best episodes are the rematches with the older villains - Bable sees the return of Shierk, Eyewitness has a rock solid mystery which had me guessing until the end (loudly shouting "It was Spellbinder all along!" is one of my fondest memories of the show)

Digital colouring also became the norm for the DCU in this episode - the show lacked some of it's spark for me personally, because I am old school - while some shows really pop with this new colouring style (X-Men: Evolution being the most lush example), I felt it sometimes made the show feel a little flat - but nothing compared to some future shows.

The season is grossly inconsistent - you get poor crap like Rats!, Sentries of The Last Cosmos and Zeta alongside quality such as Revenant, Splicers and Once Burned. There's more comedy episodes this time around, with the hilarious Eggbaby and Terry's Friend Dates A Robot. The network simply got in the way here - the cutting edge quality of season one was lost and never replaced.

Here would a good place to talk about Terry's romance with Royal Flush Gang member, Ten. I thought it was one of the better done romances in the DCAU even if it didn't amount to anything. The tangled web that was Terry's heart gets another few layers added to it as he finds himself attracted to the bad girl after Dana did so much to get him back on the right track from his Juvenal ways. Once Burned is every bit the worthy follow up to Dead Man's Hand, as there's a mystery as to whether or not 10 can be trusted or if she's simply setting Batman up. Hooked up could've given us a fascinating insight into the Terry/Dana relationship if the writers had used Dana instead of Max - for reasons unknown the majority of the episodes have to revolve around Max, instead of, well... interesting characters.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/episodes/eggbaby/30.jpg

Unlike the last season, there's no real arc as such here - no big bad to beat of character flaw to overcome - it's simply the Terry and Max show, some of it great, some of it lousy.

Thankfully, things picked up in season three.

[Rud]

The episode with the EggBaby is one of my favorite episodes in the whole DCAU, it had my laughing out loud... i disliked Max too by the way.

[Shredhead]

Oh I hated Max as well the spunky girl power characters just grate on my nerves. Everytime I watch a character like Max you can tell a writer didn't make her just some network exec who only looks at numver did and force fed it to the writers.

[aiwac]

I agree with your dislike of Max; there was real potential to take the Terry/Bruce and Terry/Dana relationships to new and interesting places instead of sticking him in the position of a uniformed truant officer...

[Bat Bruce]

I know them best – they aired in a different order over here in the mighty Yorkshire, and I personally prefer the production dates over the original airings.

Ey up, a fellow Yorkshire man on t'internet :D


Naturally, geniuses that they are, they decided that giving Batman a female sidekick was exactly what this show needed to attract more male viewers.

No, I don't get it either.


I think Max was actually a way to get female viewers in. Of course without her we wouldn't have gotten the awesomeness of Bruce in 'Where's Terry'

Certianly a very indepth look at Batman sir, I look forward to your take on Justice League's 'Batgod'

[Wonderwall]

Yea Max just never gelled properly, I think she worked best as a bit player like in Babel where she's someone that Terry can talk to that's his age and thinks roughly the same way.

If she was anymore than that it became a hinderance. Like in Curare's second episode, there was no real reason she should have lived through that episode or her debut as a regular when she uncovered Terry as Batman...that was a stretch.

I did however like when it looked like they would tease her being a full time member and then just punked her out, like in Where's Terry it looked like Bruce was gonna have her tag along but instead he just makes her take the fall. That was a classic bit.

[Nygma]

To me, the best episodes of the revamped and modern shows don’t quite shine like Robin’s Reckoning, Read My Lips or The Demon’s Head.

No mention of Showdown? Perhaps Dong Yang's best animated Batman TAS episode.


“My life is a dream, Alfred. The best dream anyone ever had.”


BATMAN: WHY did you do it?!
THE MAD HATTER: You of all people have the GAWL to ask me that?! You ruined my life!! I was willing to give you the perfect life, JUST to keep you out of mine!Personally this exchange always stood out for me, in that episode:
"HATTER: N-- N-- Now wait just a minute! You don't want to do anything foolish! This isn't any ordinary dream! What if you're wrong?
BRUCE: Then I'll see you in your nightmares! "

A very powerful delivery by Kevin Conroy.


I Am The Night is considered by many to best character study in the show (except Maxie Zeus and Steel, they should chime in here and disagree with me!) as Bruce questions whether or not he should consider his life as Batman – I think this is an important question in the life of any superhero and am always glad to see when it is brought up – to be a superhero is to sacrifice one’s own happiness for the greater good, I think it greatly helps define someone when they question it in the pursuit of their own happiness – if you don’t believe me, just watch the outstanding Spider-Man 2, still Marvel's best movie in my humble opinion. The episode in question does a great of explaining why Batman does what he does and the difference he makes because of it.In a minor defense towards those who might dislike it, (I do, but I'll admit it's not perfect) some of the scenes and the way they're played are laid on a little thick, the theme of it is great, but one of the reasons I always loved Spider-Man 2 is that the theme is allowed to play out without feeling rushed like in the comics, or here. Here it doesn't take long for Batman to put the cape and cowl back on.



Continuing with the subject of women, Batgirl was later introduced in the show, in a two-part story that I personally found to be incredibly tedious, in all honesty. Most of you will know that I’m none too fond of Batgirl; in fact, I liked Barbara Gordon as a character a lot more before she became Batgirl. I didn’t really mind her showing up as a supporting character every once in a while (as opposed to having her shoved down my throat like more recent times) but the sad fact is that none of the BTAS episode featuring Batgirl are very interesting. This is an incredibly slow story and features a shocking use of Two-Face who could once claim to be the shows most interesting villain. There’s some good chemistry between Robin and Batgirl but it’s nothing remarkable, much like the episode itself. I actually didn't mind Shadow of The Bat, even if it was predictable, and the use of Two-Face is different. Batgirl is something that Barbera sort of stumbles in to by accident. Whilst I'm not a big fan of Batgirl, I felt if they were going to do it, at least make it make sense, which I felt it did.


Batman gets back into fine form with The Demon’s Head, which sees comic scribe Denny O’Neil write the animated introduction to his most famous creation, Ra’s Al Guhl. I’m not Ra’s biggest fan and the episode is a little too out there for my Batman tastes, but there’s some brilliant moments for Batman himself to be found, as Ra’s kidnaps Robin in a secret attempt to see if Batman himself is worthy to lead after Ra’s demise. Unknown to both Ra’s and the audience is that Batman is ahead of Ra’s every step of the way, even deducing that it was he who kidnapped his ward in the first place. Part one is a lot more interesting than part two (which is often a little silly – Wayne just happens to have his own building in the exact same country that hosts Ra’s Lazarus Pit.)Well it's not as silly as the deux ex machina Power Disruptor in A Better World was.

Yeah it's out there, but it's not out there in a stupid way like say Tyger, Tyger. Personally I've never understood how people say Ra's is too out there as a villain in Batman TAS but are willing to accept Clayface, or Time Out of Joint.


why not just have Bane go after Batman as a challenge to himself to prove that he is an “Ultimate Warrior”. There’s some joke about Bane looking like a wrestler there but I won’t tell it (sorry Ngyma ;)).

Well if you had mentioned how he had wanted to challenge Bat Hogan, I might of gotten the joke sooner.:p
Personally, Stu I'm disappointed you didn't explain the origin of Bane's Venom supply and how he had bought it all from Vince McMahon in the early 90's, so Vince could get rid of all his "steroids" before going to the Steroid Trials and avoid getting caught. Then in Batman Beyond, things would come full circle as Bane's doctor would later be discovered as an ancestor to former WWE doctor/steroid distributor, George Zaharian.

Oh well, there's always Vince Russo to explain this.;)


Showdown is one of the shows best episodes despite the fact it really isn’t a Batman episode, but it’s filled with such great dialogue and animation you can’t help but love it. I remember really disliking it as a kid but looking back on it now, it’s mesmerising – it leaves you craving for more Jonah Hex.

The episode simply has everything – a good mystery, great pacing, spectacular direction and animation and at the heart of it, a very good story. I don’t feel I’ve quite done the episode justice with my thoughts here – this is simply an episode you should simply watch and appreciate its brilliance that way. If you’re not tempted to get up and watch the episode now, I’ve really not done it justice.Nice to see Showdown getting alot of praise.

The half moon club quote is probably my favorite Two-Face quote in any medium of his history. Not sure why, but it is.
Since your a big fan of the episode Stu what would you have thought of Poison Ivy being in The Penguin's place in the episode?
On a similar note I kind of wish you would've mentioned House & Garden, since it's Poison Ivy's best appearance in any medium IMO.


The rest of the remaining episodes feature gems such as Make ‘Em Laugh (the shows funniest episode)Almost Got Im' would like a word with you (I hit him with a rock).:D


This completely contradicts Batman’s actions in Riddler’s Reform, whom Batman instantly distrusts and seems to enjoy rubbing it when he escapes his death trap.I don't think it does since he figured out how The Riddler stole the one tapestry.


Over The Edge sees Batman’s world falls apart as Batgirl falls to her death and her Father Commissioner Gordon discovers his secret identity and embarks on a vendetta against Batman and his crime fighting comrades, forcing his way into the Batcave and attempting to kill Batman and Robin. Realising his own attempts aren’t getting him anywhere, Gordon strikes a deal with Bane to apprehend The Batman if he releases him from Stone Gate and sets a trap for Batman at Barbara’s funeral, giving the best fight scene in Batman’s animated history. His throw down with Bane is absolutely brutal and stands out in a show that had brilliant fight scenes even on it’s off days – the smack downs were one of the highlights of the entire program.

I never saw what the big deal was that it was just a nightmare – the 20 minutes preceding the story were utterly astonishing, it had the best animation to ever grace The New Batman Adventures and to me, it’s the unquestioned highlight of the show, Second Chance is it’s only competition when it comes to the best ever episode in my opinion. Some fanboys still complain about the only a dream scenario – that’s the whole point of dream/illusion/nightmare episodes – to offer something completely different without having to deal with the cumbersome ties to reality.

No mention of Bob Hastings best performance as Commisioner James Gordon? I thought he deserved a mention for this episode.


All this, and the most bad ass scene in Batman’s animated history. Hoping to learn the location of his latest baddie, The Dark Knight approaches one of his oldest enemies for the skinny on her.Really? I think it's a great scene, perhaps the 2nd most bad ass scene in TNBA (behind his scenes in Never Fear) but I think there's better ones out there IMO. Ultimatum is one of my personal favorites (Mine are bigger than yours):D Another one is in Joker's Millions where he interrogates Ernie at the Ice Pick Club, Penguin is about to go inside until he hears Batman and the toilet flushing(let me jog your memory), then chickens out.:anime:


Judgement Day again disappoints – Bruce’s friendship with Harvey is barely mentioned and well, the plot is too predictable to fully enjoy it.Really? I personally didn't figure it out until the scene where Batman investigates the hammer, but even then I 2nd guessed myself simply because I couldn't get behind Two-Face fighting for justice, until Batman explained it. Sure I would of loved to have heard some level of concern come from Bruce about Harvey but I still enjoyed the episode, it felt alot more like a classic Batman TAS episode in terms of the tone to the episode, Harvey's portrayal or not(now you know how I feel about Peter Parker and his he's portrayed in terms of his lack of concern for Eddie Brock).:sad:


Batman’s new costume doesn’t pop as well as I’d have liked – I think the mask and red bat embalm work well but the grey doesn’t really add a lot to the suit, it can come across as a little dull looking.

I thought I was the only one who wasn't really fond of the suit. Nice to see another.
I always loved Terry McGinneses origin in that Bruce didn't just easily accept a new batman or go looking for a successor, it just sort of happened by accident (is that the right word for this?)


All good things must come to end, but this season went out with a bang as Powers skin can no longer take the vast amounts of radiation his body is producing and his sanity begins escaping him and he asks his son, Paxton Powers for help. It was a fantastic swansong for the season, which stands out as one of the best the show ever did. For the old school fanboys, there's a great nod to the original Dark Knight in this one, look out your window and see. The final scene has an air of ambiguous about it, with Paxton now realising he's made an enemy of Batman and his Father.

Paxton: So, he melted with the sub.
Batman. ...sure he did.

Overall, outstanding. Buffy meets Batman works astonishingly well. But for how long?What did you think of Blight not coming back Stu? I always thought killing him off was perhaps the 2nd stupidest thing the show did (Max being the 1st). As good as the villains on Batman Beyond could be, I felt they simply paled in comparison to Blight as he was such a great personal villain for both Bruce and Terry.
I know Timm and Co. said they wanted to get away from the corporate storylines(so did BS & P apparently). But in my opinion there was WAY too much potential thrown away with the character, and the show sort of lost that certain something when he was killed off.


One of the most impressive things about Batman Beyond when comparing it to the previous Batman/Superman cartoons is that out of costume, Terry McGuiness was far more interesting than Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent.

Clark Kent I agree on, Bruce Wayne I don't as we got a deeper look into him than we did Terry, that and Batman Beyond's supporting cast wasn't anywhere near as interesting as B:TAS supporting cast was, though there was potential with them, but it was wasted.


Naturally, Kids WB! could have none of this and changes were made to meet more target demographics than it's previous season. The target of course, being 4-16 year olds. Naturally, geniuses that they are, they decided that giving Batman a female sidekick was exactly what this show needed to attract more male viewers.

No, I don't get it either.

Either way, Max Gibson became pretty much the main supporting character in season two - overshadowing everyone bar Batman - Bruce, Dana, the villains. As you can imagine by the venomous wording of this post, I loathe Max with every fibre of my being. She completely dominated the show and worse still, she often did it by making Terry look like a complete idiot. The show became more and more high school, often focusing on more tales about Hamilton Hill High and Terry's classmates than a corrupt city. While the show was still highly enjoyable, there was a humongous dip in quality and it's 13/13 track record wasn't going to stand the test of time - there's more than a few stinkers to be found here.I know I'm probably not the only one who was rooting for the robot chick to kick Max's butt in Terry's Friend Date's A Robot, was I Stu.;) On that topic, I never understood the hatred for the episode as I thought it was alot more clever and tongue in cheek then say Warrior Queen in S:TAS. The robot exploding after "Paul Dini" told her they should just be friends was probably the funniest moment for me in the entire series. Same thing goes for Eggbaby.


Here would a good place to talk about Terry's romance with Royal Flush Gang member, Ten. I thought it was one of the better done romances in the DCAU even if it didn't amount to anything. The tangled web that was Terry's heart gets another few layers added to it as he finds himself attracted to the bad girl after Dana did so much to get him back on the right track from his Juvenal ways. Once Burned is every bit the worthy follow up to Dead Man's Hand, as there's a mystery as to whether or not 10 can be trusted or if she's simply setting Batman up. Hooked up could've given us a fascinating insight into the Terry/Dana relationship if the writers had used Dana instead of Max - for reasons unknown the majority of the episodes have to revolve around Max, instead of, well... interesting characters.Am I the only one who found Ten more interesting than Dana? Personally I found Dana to be a little bit one note, as the poor girls' only focus episode was probably the worst episode of the series and it didn't give us any character study on her, except the stuff with her father.

Maybe if they had focused more on her then Max, who was still less interesting even with all the focus she got.:p
And it's not even like Wonder Woman who I find occasionally boring when focused on her mythos, but she at least didn't make the characters look stupid like Max did.
Speaking of Stu, I think it's going to be interesting seeing you talking about the Batman-Wonder Woman relationship later on. Given that you've repeatedly stated your non-interest in her as a character, but an interest in the relationship.
I have a feeling that I might end up falling in the same camp as you about Wonder Woman, when you talk about it later on.

Also Stu how did you mistake Wonderwall's name with my name, when responding to him?

Geez that was alot to get through. Did I miss anything? Good cause I'm tired after all that typing.:yawn: Looking forward to more of your thoughts on Batman in Animation, Stu, but I'm taking a nap after that.

[seryass]

I hope you don't mind me replying to some of your comments Nygma (even though they were aimed at Stu)


Yeah it's out there, but it's not out there in a stupid way like say Tyger, Tyger. Personally I've never understood how people say Ra's is too out there as a villain in Batman TAS but are willing to accept Clayface, or Time Out of Joint.

Rather like Stu I'm not a huge fan of Ra's but it's certainly not because he's "out there" as a villain. As you say there are a few more villains certainly more "out there" than that.

The problem with Ra's is that he's effectively a one-trick villain. His only motivations are power as well as his obssession with looking for a heir in the form of Batman. It gets tiresome quickly and was one of the reasons that "Showdown" was really the only episode I liked of his since Batman was effectively pushed out of the equation. Well that and I've always liked Jonah Hex.

In my opinion the majority of the Batman villains have motivations which can be exploited in a number of varying ways and when that isn't the case (such as Lock-Up) they are wisely used as a one-shot villain. I also feel Baby Doll falls into this category too and was wrongly brought back.

Aside from his introduction all of the other episodes featuring Ra's focus on his search for immortality (or to at least live on). There's really no variation between them and for me that's what really makes the character boring.


What did you think of Blight not coming back Stu? I always thought killing him off was perhaps the 2nd stupidest thing the show did (Max being the 1st). As good as the villains on Batman Beyond could be, I felt they simply paled in comparison to Blight as he was such a great personal villain for both Bruce and Terry.
I know Timm and Co. said they wanted to get away from the corporate storylines(so did BS & P apparently). But in my opinion there was WAY too much potential thrown away with the character, and the show sort of lost that certain something when he was killed off.

Personally I thought that was one of the best things the show did.

True, Blight was a good personal villain for Bruce and Terry but had it continued it would have got stale. With his identity now known to the public I think Blight would have just become another run-of-the-mill villain. Had they kept his identity a secret then perhaps more interesting stories could have been told but that was not to be and even then what could be done? With his identity known as well as, presumably, his behind the scenes actions there could really only be the story of his revenge against Batman.

I personally find that regular villains very rarely work in television. Too much attention is given to them which can affect other existing characters as well as potential for new villains to be created. Luckily in Blight's case he was more of a recurring character and that's why I think the character worked better. More emphasis could be given to Blight that way and his story did develop a sort of arc in the end comprising of his transformation, his downfall and ultimately his end.

[Stu]

Yeah it's out there, but it's not out there in a stupid way like say Tyger, Tyger. Personally I've never understood how people say Ra's is too out there as a villain in Batman TAS but are willing to accept Clayface, or Time Out of Joint.

I'm not opposed to Batman battling supernatural villains per se - I just think Ra's is a global threat, whereas Batman to me is the Dark Knight of Gotham. I think Ra's would've been a better Justice League villain, and oddly enough, he never appeared in either of the JL shows. I thought they did a lot better job with him in Batman Begins.


Well if you had mentioned how he had wanted to challenge Bat Hogan, I might of gotten the joke sooner.:p

Personally, Stu I'm disappointed you didn't explain the origin of Bane's Venom supply and how he had bought it all from Vince McMahon in the early 90's, so Vince could get rid of all his "steroids" before going to the Steroid Trials and avoid getting caught. Then in Batman Beyond, things would come full circle as Bane's doctor would later be discovered as an ancestor to former WWE doctor/steroid distributor, George Zaharian.

Ironically enough, the actor who portrayed Bane in Batman and Robin was a former pro wrestler who died of a heart attack due to years of steriod abuse. No evil chairman to blame there though.


Oh well, there's always Vince Russo to explain this.;)

From what I saw of his days in WCW, the man couldn't explain pretty much... erm, anything, the fool.


Since your a big fan of the episode Stu what would you have thought of Poison Ivy being in The Penguin's place in the episode?
On a similar note I kind of wish you would've mentioned House & Garden, since it's Poison Ivy's best appearance in any medium IMO.

I'd never actually thought about putting Ivy in there - I think that would've worked better.

I do like House and Garden - it's by far Ivy's best episodes and one of the best they ever actually did. I admit to feel saddened at the episode's ending. He's not a bad writer that Dini fellow is he?


No mention of Bob Hastings best performance as Commisioner James Gordon? I thought he deserved a mention for this episode.

I thought he was a consistantly great Gordon. His performance was probably overlooked by the rest of the episode - everyone and everything was on outstanding form for that bad boy!


What did you think of Blight not coming back Stu? I always thought killing him off was perhaps the 2nd stupidest thing the show did (Max being the 1st). As good as the villains on Batman Beyond could be, I felt they simply paled in comparison to Blight as he was such a great personal villain for both Bruce and Terry.
I know Timm and Co. said they wanted to get away from the corporate storylines(so did BS & P apparently). But in my opinion there was WAY too much potential thrown away with the character, and the show sort of lost that certain something when he was killed off.

I think it needed closure, but yes, I do think Blight should've returned. Would've made for a great appearance - I think it was more along the lines of the network not wanting him back, because when Terry is facing Blight, it takes them out of the high school (and God forbid someone steal Max's spotlight!)


Clark Kent I agree on, Bruce Wayne I don't as we got a deeper look into him than we did Terry, that and Batman Beyond's supporting cast wasn't anywhere near as interesting as B:TAS supporting cast was, though there was potential with them, but it was wasted.

It depends which Bruce you mean - the Bruce in the cave with Alfred or the billionaire playboy persona, which I don't think is as interesting as Terry. I think they finally cracked the playboy part in the recent movies, and Paul Dini's recent run on Detective Comics has been great with it - he actually uses it as a ruse for Batman. Then of course, some fool decided Bruce Wayne should be killed. Idiots.


Speaking of Stu, I think it's going to be interesting seeing you talking about the Batman-Wonder Woman relationship later on. Given that you've repeatedly stated your non-interest in her as a character, but an interest in the relationship.
I have a feeling that I might end up falling in the same camp as you about Wonder Woman, when you talk about it later on.

I do go on about that later yes - I've didn't find her interesting in the slightest in the DCU version unless she was with Batman. I thought they did a much better job with her on every point in The New Frontier DVD. So yeah, don't ever, ever expect a Wonder Woman retrospective from me. :p


Also Stu how did you mistake Wonderwall's name with my name, when responding to him?

As difficult as it will be for all of you to believe, I occasionally make errors. I think I am done for the year with them now though :D

[Stu]

The opening episode sees a fine return to form in King's Ransom, as both the underutilised Paxton Powers and the always entertaining Royal Flush Gang return. Times are tough for the card criminals - thier various run ins with Batman have left them at considerably less than full strength and they're now doing petty jobs to try and keep the cash flow coming in to support thier luxurious lifestyle. It's a fine conclusion to thier arc and thier eventual breakup - I always loved The Royal Flush Gang - they were something we never really saw in The New Batman/Superman Adventures or Batman Beyond. It also actually saw Paxton Powers apprehended, at long last.

After having Max shoved down our throats for the entire second season, it was finally let up a bit here. She was still present, but no in an overshadowing or dominating way. It was no longer Max Gibson Beyond, we finally got Batman Beyond focusing on well... Batman and Terry.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/bios/batman/107.jpg

A nice suprise for me personally came when this season was released on DVD, as I discovered I'd never actually seen Untouchable before. The episode isn't really all that brilliant beyond some ace visuals for the villain of the piece (which nearly made up for an the obviousness of who the villain actually was).

We get a nice Inque finale in Inqueling as Terry admits to Max that he wants to beat her without the old man's help as Terry's... imcompetance (failures?) have nearly got Wayne killed twice at the villains hand. Wayne is absent throughout the episode, but this time it actually makes sense and isn't an irritance like it was a lot of the time - it also shows that Terry has some of Bruce's stubborness in him.

The best episode of the season (and arguably show) finally sees the return of Talia who has taken over her Father's operations and offers Bruce eternal youth as a birthday present (which went down a lot better than tickets to the Batman musical Terry got him - seeing Bruce's reaction to the campy take on his crime fighting days was the funniest thing this show ever did.) Plus, Conroy has a great singing voice on him - that could come in handy in the future...


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/episodes/outofthepast/16.jpg

Bruce reluctantly accepts the offer and undergos the transformation, making him years younger (but not as young as we see in in TNBA or as old as we saw him in the Rebirth flashback) but later rejects the entire ordeal as he feels he would simply be Talia's tagalong after she told Terry there was no way Bruce would ever become Batman again... I see why Bruce rejected the transformation - I can't see him being young and not fighting crime - if Talia had her way, she probably wouldn't even let Bruce continue his work with Terry in the Batcave. It was absoloutly awesome seeing them whoop Talia's guards ass together though - one of my favourite moments in the show. One of the big Ohemgee moments came when we heard David Warner's Ra's Al Guhl voice from behind the door, until we realise that he actually is Talia and took over her body when his was too damaged in the fanboy fantasy Near Apocalypse of '09. Bruce gets some classic lines in against his ancient foe as he tries to outphysce The Demon's Head.

BRUCE: "I was wrong Ra's. You haven't mastered death, you whimper in fear of it."
RA'S: "Silence!"
*SLAP!*
BRUCE: "And you hit like a girl."

This episode also brought up a debate about Bruce's romance - where was Andrea when looking through the photos of his old loves. (I will ignore the "where was Wonder Woman?" nonsense, for obvious reasons.) I don't see it - I think it was just juvenile fan stretching. However, towards the episode's conclusion, we see new photos, so it's simple to assume that he has more pictures - Andrea, Wonder Woman, maybe even Susan.


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The rest of the episodes aren't much to write home about - the show never really got a conclusion, it just ended. It would be foolish not to mention The Call, however. This two part story sees the introduction of the Justice League Unlimited as Superman invites Batman to join the Justice League. Much has been written about The Call, by me in my previous Superman retrospective (and that Green Lantern one that joins the list of ones I've started, not finished and not posted) and, humourously enough by Timm himself in the talkback thread (which I consider the best I've ever read here on Toon Zone - some of the hilarious leaps in logic by posters defending the episode are brilliantly baffling.) The Call has massive, massive plot holes but is still a lot of fun to watch. The important thing to remember is that in the end, Terry rejects thier offer to join the League.

Overall, Batman Beyond was a refreshlingly different show, even if the network's intentions were to make it pretty much like every other show on thier network - a relatable teen fighting crime, there's something ... different about it - it seems a lot more mature than most of the shows with a similiar MO. I still miss seeing Terry in action (although a Batman Beyond mini-series has finally been announced for later in the year!), we get a sad AND happy ending to Bruce's life as Batman. I don't think I'm being out of line when I saw that by the time the show ended, most fans were aching for the return of Bruce Wayne as Batman - I would've happily seen the show continued (and would LOVE them to devote one of the numerous upcoming DTVs to Batman Beyond!).

As previously mentioned, the show however just ends as it reached the magic number of 52 - there's no finale to speak of, it simply ran out of episodes and the network lost interest in the show. A live action movie was planned with Paul Dini and Alan Burnett involved but like... every other DC movie planned in the late 90's/early 00's, it was quickly and quietly shelved (some things don't change. Ever.) We'd have to wait several more years before we got a conclusion to Terry McGuiness' story. But good things come to those who wait...

[aiwac]

Nice analysis, if a bit rushed. I'm surprised you thought the two-parter about Charlie Bigelow not even worth mentioning, even for critique...


We get a nice Inque finale in Inqueling as Terry admits to Max that he wants to beat her without the old man's help as Terry's... imcompetance (failures?) have nearly got Wayne killed twice at the villains hand. Wayne is absent throughout the episode, but this time it actually makes sense and isn't an irritance like it was a lot of the time - it also shows that Terry has some of Bruce's stubborness in him.

Calling it "incompetence" is a bit extreme - she snuck on the Batmobile in the first round (when he was still a neophyte), and if it weren't for her love-sick lackey operating the crane, Inque would have been defeated in the second fight.

I personally found it exasperating that they didn't have Terry actually defeat Inque in the finale, even if with difficulty. It doesn't do either Terry, or Bruce any credit.

Overall, though, very nice retrospective - but where the heck is RotJ?!? Surely you don't intend to move onto JL and JLU before covering that masterpiece?

[Livy1213]

No love for Return of the Joker? That was Batman Beyond at it's best!

[Stu]

Before moving to Justice League, it would be rude not to devote an entire post to what still remains both the finest story Batman Beyond ever did and the best direct to DVD feature either DC or Marvel have ever done, edging out the superlative efforts of both Green Lantern: First Flight and Hulk Vs. Wolverine. WHV decided that they wanted a direct to video feature to cash in on the success of Batman Beyond and the producers of the show immediately decided that they wanted to bring The Joker back from the old show into the future to give Terry his greatest challenge yet, and give the video an epic story. They also decided to tell the story of what happened to Robin, as apparently this is what most fans ask (which is fair, The New Batman Adventures Robin was awesome).

The feature is simply fantastic in every sense of the word. It's without question the best Batman Beyond story and probably my personal favourite animated Joker story. There's a great mystery throughout as to how the bloody hell Joker is still as young as he is 50 years in the future. We get a great look at Terry's character, as Timm himself the story was Terry's - not Drake's, Wayne's or the title villains. The story is free of the cumbersome Max or even Hamilton Hill High - I admit I didn't see the twist coming either. When Drake said "There's nothing about you I don't know Batfake.", I remember asking what the hell was going on. As said above, The Joker is as good as he's ever been here - he's slightly more restrained and bitter than usual, but Mark Hamill makes it work just as well as the over the top nut job from the cape and cowl days. We even get our mandatory "Batman no more!" scene only this time, Wayne forces it on Terry.



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Joker had no real interest in Terry, like... at all. If you notice, while he personally goes into the Batcave to kill Bruce (with little fanfare, he really means it when he says "I truly did hate your guts!") whilst The Jokerz are sent to kill Terry as quickly as possible.

The Joker model gets a much needed redesign from TNBA days - future Joker is given a slick revamp with an all black suit and the black finger nails - the face is reminiscent of TAS but straighter and more jagged. I admit to liking the TAS model more but given the inconsistency the animators had with it, a more streamlined designed was to be expected - this works great for what it is. The old school present day Joker is redesigned too - I still miss the orange shirt but it's a big improvement over TNBA blunder. The rest of the Jokerz are a lot more memorable than any found in the show - superior casting helped.

The animation is stunning throughout - no DC project has come close to topping this since. As TMS' final DC project, they really went to town on it - everything from smoke, explosions and the swiftness of the fights is fantastic. Speaking of the smackdowns - they are brutal. Easily director Curt Geda's finest ever work, Batman pulled no punches here as he took apart The Jokerz or even the clown prince of crime himself. While the show was never shy from pushing BS+P to their limits, they really went all out here - which again, helped the epic tone of the story. The music is pumped up too - Kenny Wayne Shepard rocks outs to Kris Karter's finest ever score. The soundtrack is well worth a purchase if you can still find it.

My favourite scene is the flashback to 'present' in which Barbara recalls the original Batman's last ever fight with The Joker and the horrific consequences it entailed. Not only was a complete joy to see TMS animate old school Batman again but Conroy offers what may very well be his best ever performance as Batman as he becomes enraged over what The Joker did to Robin. He really did sell that "I'll break you in two..." line!


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Oh yes. That little scene in which Joker tortured The Boy Wonder and made him reveal all of Brucie's darkest secrets. It gets topped as Robin then shots The Joker, killing him.

That's what the poop hit the fan. With a recent outrage from some US senator in mind (from what I recall), the fine folks at WHV demanded a rewrite and cut down on the violence. Rather than be shot, The Joker slipped in a pool of water and was electrocuted, which only really made him look like a bit of a fool. Just about every other punch in the film was cut down. The online community created a massive stink about the edited version of the film being released towards the last minute to the point where bootleg version of the original uncut version began showing up at comic conventions. Saner heads at WHV eventually realised that they could release the uncut version and actually make profit themselves instead of fanboys at comic conventions cashing in on their work. So essentially, they managed to get 2 lots of profit from the same movie.

Typically, the film still didn't sell well enough to produce another DVD. Batman Beyond soon disappeared entirely, quickly forgotten about by the very execs who demanded it's creation, to give way to more dubbed crap from Japan.

For shame, Warner Bros. Animation, for shame.

Next: Bush League

[seryass]

Typically, the film still didn't sell well enough to produce another DVD. Batman Beyond soon disappeared entirely, quickly forgotten about by the very execs who demanded it's creation, to give way to more dubbed crap from Japan.

For shame, Warner Bros. Animation, for shame.

I do agree with you on this but only insofar as the actual shows that get dubbed and come out in the West which are indeed crap.

I'm actually quite fond of a lot of old anime though when shading and actual animation mattered as opposed to the cheap, easy and virtually non-existant style of digital animation that is so prevalent in modern anime. Back then they also knew how to tell good stories too. Say what you will about mecha anime the first couple of Gundam series knew how to tell stories about war and didn't take it lightly either.

It's a testament to the team at the DCAU that they too have a certain fondness for old school anime as evidenced by their hommages to certain anime such as Akira and Lupin III.

Back on topic aside from that little quibble I agree completely with your retrospective on the Batman Beyond movie itself. It is a shame they never made another movie but at least we did get some sort of closure to the series which I'm guessing you will be covering when you get around to it in the Justice League part.

I remember when they showed the movie over here in the UK on terrestrial TV (incidentally I'm another Yorkshire fan on t'internet) and I really liked it then in it's edited form. It was only about a year after that when I learned of the unedited edition. Needless to say I bought the DVD of it the moment it came out and it really is far better (especially the oft mentioned death of the Joker).

[Wonderwall]

My personal favorite entry in superhero animation is this movie. For me it's the measuring stick to which I measure other superhero shows, and more specifically DTVs. Not much more to say cept that old school Joker with that redesign face is probably my favorite drawing of the Joker. Oh and I forgot that Terry's verbal smackdown on Joker at the end is one of my favorite scenes as well, especially when Terry uses one of Joker's lines against him. I think some props should be given to Will Friedle as well as he's in top form here.

"You make me laugh...but only because I think you're kinda pathetic."

[Stu]

My personal favorite entry in superhero animation is this movie. For me it's the measuring stick to which I measure other superhero shows, and more specifically DTVs.

I agree completely. I don't think any of the recent DTVs have come close to unseating ROTJ (or MOTP) as the king of the DTV. Annoyingly enough the majority of them share the same pacing problems and none of them are as rewatchable. Hulk vs Wolverine does deserve special mention - that's had a good few spins.

And big up to all Yorkshiremen on t'internet! :D

[Stu]

After much nagging from fans (and presumably DC Comics themselves) Bruce Timm and James Tucker pitched a Justice League show to Kids WB! which was to feature the (most of) the classic Justice League and younger members including Robin and Impulse, because Kids WB! had no interest in grown ups in costumes - younger heroes were their demographic. I'm not certain as to whether or not the pitch was outright rejected or not, but regardless, a new pitch solely featuring the older members was sent over to Cartoon Network, who enthusiastically agreed to produce a new Justice League cartoon, to follow on from Batman/Superman/Batman Beyond.

The show underwent a visual revamp from The New Batman/Superman Adventure days - every character model was redesigned and a new generic city background replaced the gritty Gotham and futuristic Metropolis. A drop in budget meant the show no longer had a full orchestra - the music was synthesised, but it went back to it's classic orchestral roots rather than the rock style used in Batman Beyond. Tucker himself became the main model designer, with Timm designing Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter.


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Oh yes, the roster. Pre-launch of the show, the majority of the fans were annoyed of Aquaman's exclusion. Superman and Batman were obvious choices - The Flash soon followed, but we weren't initially told whether it was Barry Allan, Wally West or even Bart Allan under the mask - for all intensive purposes, The Flash was simply The Flash. Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman joined them - Hawkgirl was added to increase the female numbers and John Stewart became The Green Lantern. But oh noez! Kyle Rayner was The Green Lantern back in the Superman series so how was someone else going to become GL? Did he die? It wasn't explained... I never felt it needed to be - Stewart was the Green Lantern now, I just got on with it (even if Kyle is still my favourite Lantern).

I had no problems with the roster - I'd not actually seen most of Superman: The Animated Series and only knew basic, basic stuff about the rest of the League beyond the mainstream stuff - I admit to having never heard of Hawkgirl or Martian Manhunter before the show started. However, they all looked pretty poor. The sharpness of TNBSA is lost here - the majority of the animation is too stiff and plain and nothing pops - the show looks very, very flat. It's too plain and light - there's no powerful models or storyboarding to be seen - in all honesty, there is a dramatic dip in quality visually here. There's no really cool, impressive models to be found here unfortunately - my favourite of the season was The Demon, and even then, I thought it looked better back in the day of The New Batman Adventures. Modern technology fails here!


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It took aaaages for Justice League to start here in the UK (like, nearly a year after Americans got it. Remember that next time you whine that you have to wait for an episode to air!) and I recall reading the mixed reviews it received. Some felt it was a fine continuation of B/S/BB, others felt it paled in comparison. I actually saw Secret Origins on DVD before it started airing here, and I have to say - I felt slightly disappointed. I admit to being a bigger fan of Batman and Superman and not much of a JLA fan when it aired, but I thought this was a pretty average show at best, certainty not up there with past superhero shows. Even with the dodgy animation and occasionally cheesiness found in X-Men, I found Marvel's mutants had a stronger small screen showing that DC's big guns.

Each episode was a multiple part story now - bookended by a 3 part opening and finale, with all the remaining episodes stories coupled into 2 episodes. This meant the pacing was off for most of the episodes, and a lot of the stories suffered from excessive padding or dead air time. The creative team admit to holding back on the edgier and more violent stuff - some out of caution (possibly due to the Return Of The Joker debacle) and perhaps because they tried to capture the essence of the Silver Age, when comics were fun fluff rather than multi-part dark drama that most of them are now. Worryingly, Paul Dini and Alan Burnett were not involved in the show - as cornerstones of the DCU previously, I felt they would be missed before I started watching the show - my fears were bang on the money here.

The team's origin is shown in the opening 3 episodes - the story begins with Batman and Superman but it felt very felt jaded to me, even on first viewing. I'm not sure if it was the flatness of the horrendous models failing on each other but the dynamic chemistry between Batman and Superman wasn't anywhere to be found. The rest of the story fails to pick up - the BS swerve that Batman had met his demise fooled absolutely no one and Bats himself later saved the day when he discovered that the White Martians were adversely effected by sunlight.

Wayne himself funds the Watchtower (God knows why he put it in space though, being that he can't fly and such - a base on Earth would've made for a much smarter idea, but eh, it's a cartoon) and when Superman proposes they form a Justice League, Batman advises to simply call him when needed. I wasn't feeling it - I think a subtle nod to Batman thinking it's a great idea would've worked better but eh, the team formed and they could carry on with future stories.


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On the good, nay, great side of things, Kevin Conroy is back as Batman, and better than ever. No further review is needed - Conroy is Batman and will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be topped. End of.

The model however.... I've ragged on this shows visuals, and I'll be honest, I see no reason to stop now. The powerful grey and black from TNBA days is absent. Timm says they were going for a Bob Kane look with this Batman model, which explains it's out there ears - there's also some subtle hints to the good old Batman Beyond days with his big heels and the aforementioned ears. The blue highlights return but they don't move with model - they aren't really effected by the light like the old TAS glory days - they are stuck in the same position regardless of the light source. The colouring is off - a dull blue and the light grey clash and leave a pale looking Batman model - not one that really suits the stealth look that the character demands. Batman is actually one of the shows better models, and it's still below average. The show is simply not atheistically pleasing which is tragic in itself - whatever previous show you look at BTAS, TNBSA, BB, it was worlds above the other shows. Compare them to some of the stuff going on over at Marvel and you'll see what I mean (although, they did have some striking stuff in the second seasons of Iron Man and Fantastic Four to their credit.)

Bats get his first spotlight in one of the first season's highlights in Injustice For All. The episode is a simple group of heroes vs group of villains story, with Lex Luthor, finally outed as a villain decides to create his own clique to defeat The Justice League. Before The League embarrasses Luthor's legion, Coppperhead manages to injure our dear Dark Knight. Rather than deciding to rest, Batman decides to go after them after, having learned their tracer with a handy Bat-tracer. As one of the world's smartest men, Batman suddenly becomes a dumb ass worthy of a place in the cast of My Name Is Earl when he decides to take on the Injustice League on his own. It's an awkward scene - if they were trying to get Batman to prove that he can hold his own against super powered villains, they failed. I just thought it was really, really sloppy writing - unbecoming of a writer of Stan Berkowitz's calibre.

Naturally, he gets defeated by The Joker, who is undoubtedly the highlight of the episode. Mark Hamill is back and clearly loving it.


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The ending attempts a massive swerve, by making it so Batman has actually hired The Ultra Humanite to betray Luthor and bring all the villains in. There's some of the old Batman mystique to be found here - the way he easily manipulates the Injustice League while captured shows for the first time that this is the same Dark Knight we'd been watching since '92. Paying of Humanite makes no sense in the scheme of the story, as he'd clearly been seen trying to kill J'ohnn earlier in the episodes. Yup, this one is filled with plot holes and is miraculously still one of the seasons better episodes.

Batman wasn't really one to get a spotlight as much as some of the other team members (because they really needed a lot more development than him) so the next Batman note of merit was The Brave And The Bold, which was meant to spotlight the dynamic between GL and The Flash. It's a pretty decent episodes which is best remembered for it's closing moments - thinking that Diana has died in a missile explosion, Batman begins frantically digging, believing the worst. When it turns out she's still alive, she noticed his efforts and rewarded him with a kiss on the cheek. From what I've heard from the writers, it was meant to be a throwaway moment, possibly to give the episode a happy ending. However, the fanboys reacted, and it was overwhelmingly positive for a change. As Wonder Woman had been nothing but beyond boring since the show started, she needed a spark to make her interesting, which it turns out would be our beloved caped crusader.

I don't think I'm being harsh when I'm saying the writing isn't up to much this season. Batman is clearly the smart one of the group which is part of the problem - Batman is always the one who figures everything out, and well.... the rest of the characters are often made to look clueless because of it. He's the unquestioned highlight of the show, because no one else is fighting him for it.

Things finally pick up towards the end of the season as The League (bar Batman) is transported to an alternate timeline in which The Nazi's won the war and the world by the immortal Vandal Savage. In the episode we meet alternate universe Batman, who leads a resistance against the Nazi's and wears an awesome new armour, which shockingly, has yet to be made into an action figure. Green Batman, alien Batman, GLOW IN THE DARK Batman, but awesome alternate armour Batman? No room on the shelf for that!

He's more or less absent for the majority of the story, as most of it takes place in the 1940's, and again, Batman was sat in the watchtower, awaiting his cue for a final humorous moment as Superman hugs him, as a bewildered Batman wonders what the in blue hell is going on.

Justice League season one can only be described as mediocre in my eyes. The lows are more frequent than the highs, and the creative team knew a great effort would be needed with season two.

They proved that they were more than up to the task, and they did it with style.

[seryass]

I wish I had been able to watch Justice League that soon. I'm guessing you mean it was shown on Cartoon Network over here a year later but sadly I've never had Cable or Sky so I had to wait a little longer. By the time it was shown on terrestrial I had all the DVDs.

I wouldn't say the writing was all that bad for the first season and it was finding it's feet so to speak but I do see your point about Batman being the center of attention and unquestionably the cleverest out of the Leaguers. I would argue that applies to the entire series though. Throughout the various seasons Batman was usually center of attention in the episodes that featured him especially compared to the rest of the team. I can still remember the outcry fans made with the very last episode involving the infamous Darkseid and Batman scene and again I can see their point somewhat.


The ending attempts a massive swerve, by making it so Batman has actually hired The Ultra Humanite to betray Luthor and bring all the villains in. There's some of the old Batman mystique to be found here - the way he easily manipulates the Injustice League while captured shows for the first time that this is the same Dark Knight we'd been watching since '92. Paying of Humanite makes no sense in the scheme of the story, as he'd clearly been seen trying to kill J'ohnn earlier in the episodes. Yup, this one is filled with plot holes and is miraculously still one of the seasons better episodes.

I've never understood why this is a common theory amongst fans. The notion of Humanite working for Batman all along rather defeats the whole purpose of the story. What would be the point of it all?

I've always believed Humanite IS working for Luthor at the beginning. If you notice there is a scene later when Humanite is left alone with Batman and it is at that moment when the pivotal allegiance takes place (albeit offscreen for the viewers so as not to reveal the twist in the tale). This would also explain the attack on J'ohnn earlier as at that time Humanite really was trying to kill him.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

The opening episode sees a fine return to form in King's Ransom, as both the underutilised Paxton Powers and the always entertaining Royal Flush Gang return. Times are tough for the card criminals - thier various run ins with Batman have left them at considerably less than full strength and they're now doing petty jobs to try and keep the cash flow coming in to support thier luxurious lifestyle. It's a fine conclusion to thier arc and thier eventual breakup - I always loved The Royal Flush Gang - they were something we never really saw in The New Batman/Superman Adventures or Batman Beyond. It also actually saw Paxton Powers apprehended, at long last.

After having Max shoved down our throats for the entire second season, it was finally let up a bit here. She was still present, but no in an overshadowing or dominating way. It was no longer Max Gibson Beyond, we finally got Batman Beyond focusing on well... Batman and Terry.


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A nice suprise for me personally came when this season was released on DVD, as I discovered I'd never actually seen Untouchable before. The episode isn't really all that brilliant beyond some ace visuals for the villain of the piece (which nearly made up for an the obviousness of who the villain actually was).

We get a nice Inque finale in Inqueling as Terry admits to Max that he wants to beat her without the old man's help as Terry's... imcompetance (failures?) have nearly got Wayne killed twice at the villains hand. Wayne is absent throughout the episode, but this time it actually makes sense and isn't an irritance like it was a lot of the time - it also shows that Terry has some of Bruce's stubborness in him.

The best episode of the season (and arguably show) finally sees the return of Talia who has taken over her Father's operations and offers Bruce eternal youth as a birthday present (which went down a lot better than tickets to the Batman musical Terry got him - seeing Bruce's reaction to the campy take on his crime fighting days was the funniest thing this show ever did.) Plus, Conroy has a great singing voice on him - that could come in handy in the future...


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Bruce reluctantly accepts the offer and undergos the transformation, making him years younger (but not as young as we see in in TNBA or as old as we saw him in the Rebirth flashback) but later rejects the entire ordeal as he feels he would simply be Talia's tagalong after she told Terry there was no way Bruce would ever become Batman again... I see why Bruce rejected the transformation - I can't see him being young and not fighting crime - if Talia had her way, she probably wouldn't even let Bruce continue his work with Terry in the Batcave. It was absoloutly awesome seeing them whoop Talia's guards ass together though - one of my favourite moments in the show. One of the big Ohemgee moments came when we heard David Warner's Ra's Al Guhl voice from behind the door, until we realise that he actually is Talia and took over her body when his was too damaged in the fanboy fantasy Near Apocalypse of '09. Bruce gets some classic lines in against his ancient foe as he tries to outphysce The Demon's Head.

BRUCE: "I was wrong Ra's. You haven't mastered death, you whimper in fear of it."
RA'S: "Silence!"
*SLAP!*
BRUCE: "And you hit like a girl."

This episode also brought up a debate about Bruce's romance - where was Andrea when looking through the photos of his old loves. (I will ignore the "where was Wonder Woman?" nonsense, for obvious reasons.) I don't see it - I think it was just juvenile fan stretching. However, towards the episode's conclusion, we see new photos, so it's simple to assume that he has more pictures - Andrea, Wonder Woman, maybe even Susan.


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The rest of the episodes aren't much to write home about - the show never really got a conclusion, it just ended. It would be foolish not to mention The Call, however. This two part story sees the introduction of the Justice League Unlimited as Superman invites Batman to join the Justice League. Much has been written about The Call, by me in my previous Superman retrospective (and that Green Lantern one that joins the list of ones I've started, not finished and not posted) and, humourously enough by Timm himself in the talkback thread (which I consider the best I've ever read here on Toon Zone - some of the hilarious leaps in logic by posters defending the episode are brilliantly baffling.) The Call has massive, massive plot holes but is still a lot of fun to watch. The important thing to remember is that in the end, Terry rejects thier offer to join the League.

Overall, Batman Beyond was a refreshlingly different show, even if the network's intentions were to make it pretty much like every other show on thier network - a relatable teen fighting crime, there's something ... different about it - it seems a lot more mature than most of the shows with a similiar MO. I still miss seeing Terry in action (although a Batman Beyond mini-series has finally been announced for later in the year!), we get a sad AND happy ending to Bruce's life as Batman. I don't think I'm being out of line when I saw that by the time the show ended, most fans were aching for the return of Bruce Wayne as Batman - I would've happily seen the show continued (and would LOVE them to devote one of the numerous upcoming DTVs to Batman Beyond!).

As previously mentioned, the show however just ends as it reached the magic number of 52 - there's no finale to speak of, it simply ran out of episodes and the network lost interest in the show. A live action movie was planned with Paul Dini and Alan Burnett involved but like... every other DC movie planned in the late 90's/early 00's, it was quickly and quietly shelved (some things don't change. Ever.) We'd have to wait several more years before we got a conclusion to Terry McGuiness' story. But good things come to those who wait...

Interesting take on Batman Beyond. I loved the new take on Batman when they priemired this series.
I think Terry was an interesting character with a troubled past and a different background then Bruce or Clark. Both were almost written as closed off characters...I don't know how to explain this very well. Terry was youthful and energetic...he was not afraid to be himself when he were not wearing batsuit. Bruce and Clark were trying too hard to hide their secret identity, so they acted not like themselves... :eek:

I did not hate Max all that much like most of the fans did. She was there to create variety and appeal to younger viewers. I do wish that she was used less and especially in Season 2! :ack::shrug:

If I read you post correctly when did Bruce Timm or anybody working on the show said that there will be a Batman Beyond Mini Series? When was that announced?
Also I agree with you about Talia's return was a great episode, and the fact that they should have tied a few loose ends, so to speak, before ending Batman Beyond...maybe they will do that in a mini series or a DTV if we ever see one.... :sad:
Did any od the writers said anything about "The Call" That episode was pretty dissapointing when I look back at it. Although, I was a lot younger back when it aired so maybe I liked some aspects and parts of it.
What I did like is that by the end of all this Terry became his own Batman and ROTJ movie was brilliant of course! :D

[Rud]

Your not alone Stu, before i saw justice League i had never heard of HawkGirl and the Martian Manhunter were either.

[Stu]

I wish I had been able to watch Justice League that soon. I'm guessing you mean it was shown on Cartoon Network over here a year later but sadly I've never had Cable or Sky so I had to wait a little longer. By the time it was shown on terrestrial I had all the DVDs.

I didn't even know it had been shown on terrerstial TV. I imagined if the BBC/CITV had've gotten ahold of Clash or Destroyer, they've had butuchered it beyond recognition.


I wouldn't say the writing was all that bad for the first season and it was finding it's feet so to speak but I do see your point about Batman being the center of attention and unquestionably the cleverest out of the Leaguers. I would argue that applies to the entire series though.

That's a fair point. I just thought that a lot of the time, season one suffered from idiot plots. For those not in the know, that's when a story can be wrapped up or a problem solved in moments if the character stops being a complete idiot.


Throughout the various seasons Batman was usually center of attention in the episodes that featured him especially compared to the rest of the team. I can still remember the outcry fans made with the very last episode involving the infamous Darkseid and Batman scene and again I can see their point somewhat.

See, I thought that exchange was well done. Batman never outmatched Darkseid - he thought with strategy. Batman was licked when Darkseid finally got his shot in.


I've never understood why this is a common theory amongst fans. The notion of Humanite working for Batman all along rather defeats the whole purpose of the story. What would be the point of it all?

I've always believed Humanite IS working for Luthor at the beginning. If you notice there is a scene later when Humanite is left alone with Batman and it is at that moment when the pivotal allegiance takes place (albeit offscreen for the viewers so as not to reveal the twist in the tale). This would also explain the attack on J'ohnn earlier as at that time Humanite really was trying to kill him.

That's a good point. I didn't recall them ever being alone in the episode, but that may be my memory. (Is it really 8 years since this show started?)

[Stu]

The second season would need to start with a bang to restore the fanboy's faith. While improvements were made in the later episodes of the first season, the show could've really done with knocking one out of the park. Luckily, the show saved it's trump card from the first season - the best villain the DCU had to offer, the great Lord Darkseid.

Writing wise, the episode succeeds on nearly all levels, despite the odd cringe worthy line of dialogue to be found in the episode. More importantly, and to the shows credit, the dynamite interaction between Batman and Superman was finally restored after several less than stellar team ups in the first season. They even managed to do it without bringing Lois Lane into the equation... that could've made for an interesting story.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/twilight/p1/03.jpg

Twilight is just as memorable for it's exchanges between Batman and Superman as it is between The Man Of Steel and the Lord of Apostolic. While the episode is not quite as strong as Apokolips...Now! or Legacy, it's still a fine addition to the Superman/Darkseid and Batman's inclusion offers an additional depth not found in any of the previous episodes.

Upon viewing Twilight, I was very impressed. I felt there was hope for the show after all. Not only had the writing improved, but the models were slightly tweaked too - the show was still a little too light in it's pallet for my liking but there was a dramatic improvement, especially in the night scenes. It wasn't quite up to snuff to the glory days yet, but it's good to see they realised improvements needed to be made, and they made them.

The show continued with a string of strong episode, in which our boy was featured prominently. Shades of Batman's brilliant strategic characterisation were found in Tabulsa Rasa as it's revealed he constantly carries a chunk of Kryptonite in his utility belt, which had me feeling there is a chance the show could adapt or take inspiration from Tower Of Babel, the finest Justice League story I can recall reading. It's worth noting that Tabulsa Rasa is a much stronger than Twilight - 2 for 2 so far.

Batman would have a greater challenge than defeating a robot who can manipulate anything he sees in Maid Of Honour... Batman was faced with the ungodly task of attempting to make Wonder Woman interesting. It's unfair to say that I think the DCU did a terrible job with Wonder Woman because I'll be honest.... I can't ever recall ever reading about an interesting version of WW. Her main characterisation is being a woman... except Hawkgirl is too, and she was far more interesting. By the time the show became JLU we had Zatanna, Black Canary, Vixen and The Huntress all of whom had much, much more to offer than Diana.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/maidofhonor/p2/36.jpg

The two shared some screentime together in Twilight as they recruited O'rien to help Superman fight Apokolips but this is where the flirtation really kicks off as we FINALLY see the return of Bruce Wayne in Paris. Naturally, he's there undercover but still takes the time to ask Wonder Woman for a dance. Wonder Woman is at her best when she's with Batman - there's a definite chemistry and something oddly compelling about watching Batman do what he can to avoid the situation whereas every other man in the world would jump at the chance to be with Wonder Woman. By the time the episode concludes, she has deduced that Wayne is Batman. The partnership works - Batman works far better as a romantic interest that any of the other male members - while the season was plotted around the Green Lantern/Hawkgirl relationship (which did wonders for the usually dull Stewart) I personally found the Batman/WW romance more enticing. This was really just the beginning of it - the best of this was yet to come.

The season presents it's best Batman related story yet in A Better World, which is, in my opinion, the best episode of the shows 52 episode run. A parallel universe version of The Justice League invades our world, hoping to make it more like theirs. Unfortunately, they're not the Justice League - they are the Justice Lords and they are the undisputed rulers of the planet and no dare oppose them. This story has been done before in Brave New Metropolis (Stan Berkowitz clearly loves his alternate reality stories and long may he continue to do them - he's excelled at them time and time again) and this was his best yet.

The casting remains the same for all the league members, but they were given a more uniformed look with interesting twists on their classic costumes. You can tell who each member is supposed to by one look at the them, but there's a subtle nod to Batman Beyond in Batman's new costume. Of all of them, my favourite is Superman, which manages look more 'Supermanish' than his regular costume. Something more elegant about this suit - I think it's the way the cape flows over him.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/betterworld/p1/19.jpg

The most interesting characterisation of the lot of them is the Batmen, as both men, over the course of the episode manage to convince the other that their belief is correct. Lord Batman says that in their world, no 8 year old will ever lose their parents because of some punk with a gun, whereas our Batman convinces the Lord that absolute powers corrupts and power corrupts absoloutley - they are supposed to be heroes, not dictators.

The ending is slightly irregular - I don't see how a single ray can rob the entire League of all their powers but they were clearly rushed in their ending - this could've made for a fine 3 parter, but the creative team obviously had much, much bigger plans for their 3 part finale.

Batman isn't featured in either The Terror Beyond or Eclipsed, so you'd have to venture forward to The Secret Society in which we finally get our Justice League no more story. It's a little crammed as it features all 7 of the League, plus a group of super-villains - Batman isn't spotlighted but you can see he has very little time for this "practise" BS that Green Lantern has set up. He get a great smug line in too, which I've since used at work whenever I get dragged into pointless meetings. I highly recommend using it whenever you wish to belittle someone and make yourself feel like a big man.

"Call me when it's important, and not before."

They later reconcile with a big old smash up, and realise that the planet needs them to stick together, even if they do irritate each other at times.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/bios/heroes/batman/45.jpg

Hereafter adds another interesting layer to the Batman/Superman relationship, as Batman's obsessive nature kicks in as his way of dealing with the loss of Superman. Rather than attending his funeral with the rest of the League, Batman instead watches from afar, claiming to be investigating the circumstances of his disappearance, rather than mourn his death. As a nice nod, we get to see Alfred again as he and Bruce investigated the wreckage of Toyman's gun. Sharp eyed fanboys will even notice Tim Drake at Superman's funeral... or read about it online and claim that, of course you saw it. You don't need the internet to help with these things at all do you? I bet you never even considered looking at GameFAQ.com to help you find all the Riddler's puzzles in the Arkham Asylum game did you? Certainly not.

Naturally, when Superman does return, Batman doesn't even crack a smile, nor does he offer some insightful boast about how he knew he was still alive. Brucie boy is all class.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/hereafter/p2/32.jpg

Batman has no place in an episode entitled Comfort And Joy, so the next time we see him would be a bad day for DCAU fans - sadly, we see his last battle with The Joker. It was interesting to see The Joker pitched against the entire JL, but he more than manages to hold his own - his plan of planting various bombs throughout Vegas works well and the introduction of The Royal Flush gang voiced by the Teen Titans voice cast works perfectly. The highlight of the episode is The Joker's ongoing taunts as The League dismantle his bombs - Hamill's Joker is at it's best when he's rubbing it in, as recently evidenced by his outstanding (even by his standards) role in the recent Batman: Arkham Asylum video game, which you owe it to yourself to play right now if you haven't done so. We didn't know this would be the last we'd see of the DCU Joker at the time it aired and it's his one appearance without his maniacal laughter - they were trying to make him creepier and neglected it's inclusion in the script. Its seemed they were always trying to make him more ruthless than he ever was - when Timm saw the agent of chaos on the big screen last year I imagined he smiled with appreciation.

The season then came to a close with it's 3 part finale, Starcrossed, the end of the John/Sheyera relationship. The Thanagarians have returned to Earth and warn us that the Gordanians invasion and offer to help as their planet's defences won't be enough to overcome their onslaught. Earth willingly accepts but Batman is naturally suspicious.

His investigations lead him to the truth behind the Thanagarians offer – they can actually need the planet to use as a wormhole to bypass The Gordanians frontal assault and mount a rear stealth attack and end their ongoing war. None too impressed that his planet is being used as a stepping stone, he immediately sets out to inform the League but is captured and Hawkgirl shockingly turns heel on The League, resulting in their incarceration.

Upon breaking free of their incarceration there's a ridiculously cool Batman moment in which he deduces that the six of them would quickly get caught unless they continue without their costumes and reveals himself as Bruce Wayne and doesn't give The Flash the chance to argue about the importance of keeping his secret identity and rips his mask off.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jl/episodes/starcrossed/p2/08.jpg

The rest of the story Batman wise is focused on his ongoing flirtation with Wonder Woman – there's some good stuff in here but it's overshadowed by well... the awesomeness of the rest of the episode. They get more screentime that Clark and John and Wally and John, probably because they are far more interesting as a duo.

Batman doesn't get up to much for the rest of the story until a dramatic would be sacrifice is stopped by Superman – we're not sure if he voted to keep Hawkgirl in the team – the vote was apparently tied and we know both Superman and The Flash voted to keep her in, and I assume Wonder Woman wanted her out. I'm not certain what Batman would've done. Thoughts?

So that was Justice League. It started out rather poorly and picked up tremendous steam as it went on – it's still not Batman: TAS quality but Justice League Unlimited was just around the corner.

[aiwac]

Great summary of JLS2. One dissension, though:


Its seemed they were always trying to make him more ruthless than he ever was - when Timm saw the agent of chaos on the big screen last year I imagined he smiled with appreciation.

You're kidding, right (The Killing Joke, Five Way Revenge &c)?

This is the guy who, in the animated version, tried to blow up the city because it's funny (Harlequinade), stalked a guy who cussed him on the highway just because he could (Joker's Favor), tried to derail a passenger train (Christmas with the Joker) etc etc

This is to say nothing of RotJ; the flashback scene was the one and only time shivers literally went up and down my spine watching an animated movie/episode. :sad:

This is what's so fascinating about him...he's sometimes funny, but absolutely terrifying at the same time.

[Antiyonder]

A fan theory I read is that Batman voted to keep Shayera out to satisfy Diana. Not as an attempt to impress her, but to keep her from feeling alienated (Because Batman could probably guess that the majority would vote to keep her in). Afterall, they recently had trouble with one member, so they didn't need a member who felt that everyone was siding with the traitor.

[ShadowStar]

I didn't even know it had been shown on terrerstial TV. I imagined if the BBC/CITV had've gotten ahold of Clash or Destroyer, they've had butuchered it beyond recognition.


The first season of JL was shown on CITV and ITV4 in either 2008 or 2009 (I can't remember which). They didn't show anything beyond "The Savage Time part 3", though.


Sharp eyed fanboys will even notice Tim Drake at Superman's funeral... or read about it online and claim that, of course you saw it. You don't need the internet to help with these things at all do you? I bet you never even considered looking at GameFAQ.com to help you find all the Riddler's puzzles in the Arkham Asylum game did you? Certainly not.

I'll be honest with you... I did notice Tim Drake in that scene the first time I watched it, and I didn't read about it on the internet until much later. However, I did use the internet for help with the Riddler challenges. :D

[seryass]

That's a good point. I didn't recall them ever being alone in the episode, but that may be my memory. (Is it really 8 years since this show started?)

From memory we never actually saw Batman and Humanite alone together. It was all in the dialogue. At one point Luthor tells Humanite to go and watch Batman to which Humanite answers back by asking Luthor if he couldn't send Grundy instead. Nevertheless it is Humanite that goes. The next time we see him Grundy is also there but my point being that there would have been a time if only very brief (which let's face it is all Batman needs to make the quick deal with Humanite) when they were alone before Grundy arrived.

Moving on I completely agree with you on Season 2. It was far better than the first season and, for the most part, had a great selection of stories. I am rather surprised that you didn't include Only a Dream in your retrospective as I think it's one of Batman's most pivotal roles in the second season. It is ultimately Batman that saves the day in that story along with Martian Manhunter. Of course we also get the subtle foreshadowing about Hawkgirl in Only a Dream too but it really is Batman and Manhunter's story.


we're not sure if he voted to keep Hawkgirl in the team – the vote was apparently tied and we know both Superman and The Flash voted to keep her in, and I assume Wonder Woman wanted her out. I'm not certain what Batman would've done. Thoughts?

There was (and I believe still is) a huge fan debate over this too.

Incidentally the scene with Superman where he mentions that he was the one who broke the tie was what made everything clear to me because from my opinion Superman was the one character I wasn't sure about in terms of the voting.

I've always thought the rest of the voting was made pretty clear in Starcrossed which is why I personally believe Superman was the only member to actually get some on screen clarification with regards to his voting decision.

On that topic I'll give my reasons for the other individuals:

Given how Flash treated Hawkgirl in the episode and subsequent stories they appeared in together it makes sense for him to vote for Hawkgirl.

Based on her reactions in Starcrossed Wonder Woman obviously voted against her which leaves the final two: Martian Manhunter or Batman and from what I remember it's these two characters that were usually at the center of debate with regards to fan's opinions on the voting.

I've always believed Batman doesn't take trust lightly. Given all of the secrets he has had throughout his life I've always maintained that if someone lets him down, as Hawkgirl did, I don't think he would find it easy to forgive. Therefore I think he voted against her. Whilst I'm on this topic I've always thought the reason he did forgive her more easily than Wonder Woman is because he can relate to Hawkgirl somewhat. After all who is the character that always carries a piece of kryptonite around in case of emergency?

Martian Manhunter on the other hand I always felt was made quite clear as to his voting decision in Starcrossed. I always remember his comment about her:

"She's a pariah to her people. We are all she has left".

That really sums it up for me. The way he said it with a touch of sympathy made it clear in my mind that he voted for her. Also she is an outcast now, something that J'onn can relate to.

So as confirmed later Superman broke the tie. From my point of view the tie stood at Flash and Martian Manhunter voting for her and Batman and Wonder Woman against her.

[Antiyonder]

Adding to the reason for ROTJ being better than most DCA Movies. As stated in some other posts, some of them could have been marketed to a more general audience, but will up the violence to make the film more adult. Some like GL and New Frontier have a story which warrants the rating though.

Return of the Joker on the other hand doesn't beat us over the head about the violence (Even the bit of blood we get isn't gory in the slightest). It's adult tone comes from the story, not the blood coming from Batman's mouth.

[KillerMoth]

Adding to the reason for ROTJ being better than most DCA Movies. As stated in some other posts, some of them could have been marketed to a more general audience, but will up the violence to make the film more adult. Some like GL and New Frontier have a story which warrants the rating though.

Return of the Joker on the other hand doesn't beat us over the head about the violence (Even the bit of blood we get isn't gory in the slightest). It's adult tone comes from the story, not the blood coming from Batman's mouth.
As a person who really doesn't like how forced a lot of the "adult factor" in the new films, I heartily agree with this.

I had two problems with the second season of JL that I can think of. The first is that outside that one character moment in A Better World Batman really doesn't get any development whatsoever in the series, a trait that annoyingly carried over into JLU. I know the makers a Batman fans first, but I was upset to find that Batman was reduced to an almost one-note "cool" character who ended up making other characters look dumb or incompetent.

Another issue for me was in Star Crossed, why not simply have Superman steer the Watchtower in? Batman obviously had this plan from the start, and Supes didn't prove all that necessary for the assault on the Thanagarians. Also, how come Jonn didn't know what Batman was planning? And how come he acted trapped when he could simply phase through the escape pod?

[ABrown]

The most interesting characterisation of the lot of them is the Batmen, as both men, over the course of the episode manage to convince the other that their belief is correct. Lord Batman says that in their world, no 8 year old will ever lose their parents because of some punk with a gun

Call me a fanboy if you will, but I don't believe that Lord Bruce actually had League Bruce convinced for even a moment. I think League Bruce had a plan going all along.

Oh BTW, this is about the best non-talkback thread I've seen in quite a long time. I'm really enjoying it.

[suss2it]

Another issue for me was in Star Crossed, why not simply have Superman steer the Watchtower in? Batman obviously had this plan from the start, and Supes didn't prove all that necessary for the assault on the Thanagarians. Also, how come Jonn didn't know what Batman was planning? And how come he acted trapped when he could simply phase through the escape pod?Batman probably thought that Superman would be more useful shutting down the force fields. Also just because J'onn can read minds doesn't mean his actively reading the minds of everyone around him. He also wasn't trapped but what good would phasing into outer space do? Even if he got back to the watchtower he realized he still couldn't get Batman off of it.

[KillerMoth]

Batman probably thought that Superman would be more useful shutting down the force fields. Also just because J'onn can read minds doesn't mean his actively reading the minds of everyone around him. He also wasn't trapped but what good would phasing into outer space do? Even if he got back to the watchtower he realized he still couldn't get Batman off of it.
Good points, but it still feels like Batman was aiming for a pointless sacrifice to me, he could've taken Superman's place with the Batwing given that Supe's role wasn't integral to the plot.

[Livy1213]

Good points, but it still feels like Batman was aiming for a pointless sacrifice to me, he could have taken Superman's place with the Batwing given that Supe's role wasn't integral to the plot.
It didn't turn out to be integral but I think the situation could have easily gone the other way and made Superman's presence at the shield crucial. Batman was hedging his bets. Superman would be more useful as an offensive force at the shield than largly sitting out the fight by guiding the satellite. Plus Batman is an experienced pilot and he had more of the expertise than Superman.

[Stu]

I'll be honest with you... I did notice Tim Drake in that scene the first time I watched it, and I didn't read about it on the internet until much later.

I'll be honest, I recall Alfred being there, but didn't notice Tim until someone pointed it out to me. :sweat:


However, I did use the internet for help with the Riddler challenges. :D

Shameful! I truly that World's Greatest Detective trophy and refrained from looking on the internet the entire time. :p My brother did, which only makes him less of a man than me. I struggled for days allining the dots with the question marks though.


Oh BTW, this is about the best non-talkback thread I've seen in quite a long time. I'm really enjoying it.

Thank you. I hope you're all enjoying it as much as Mr Brown here. And on we go...

[Stu]

Justice League Unlimited is considered to be a direct continuation of Justice League to many but I think the quality leap in JLU is what mainly separates the two. The expanded roster gives us more diverse characters, many of of whom are far more interesting that the original 7 and the 2 episodes per story is thankfully ditched – the stories no longer suffered from excessive padding and more often than not, they got straight to the point.

Batman gets a nice moment with Green Arrow which addresses why 2 none super powered people are included in the group but his first focus episode is bizarrely enough, a comedy episode written by Paul Dini himself.

As Batman desperately tries to avoid Wonder Woman's advances, he finds himself in the age old scenario of “you don't know what you've got til it's gone” as Cercerie turns Wonder Woman into a pig, which somehow, made her more interesting. He then recruits the other woman in his life, Zatanna and the two of them do all they can to turn her back human.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/bios/batman/03.jpg

You've probably gathered that I'm not a WW fan and I actually really like Zatanna, but WW was at her most interesting when she was with Batman – probably because she had very little chemistry with anyone else on the roster and well, there's never been much to her on her own.

After bearing his soul by shredding his Dark Knight persona and wowing the audience with his rendition of Am I Blue? Nothing really happens between them for the rest of the show – I think she just realised he wasn't interested and they left it at that.

Worth noting that Conroy himself has a magnificent singing voice on him, which surprised the hell out of me when I first heard it. If you'd have told me Batman was to sign in this season before I saw this, I would've told you to stop mixing those funny Cigarettes with beer. It took a completely out of character moment yet made it fit in perfectly, not only with Batman himself, but with the villain of the peace too. Also, they finally, FINALLY used some of the old The New Batman Adventures and remembered that Gotham has a red sky. It may seem odd, but this brought a smile to my face - I love a good background, and the generic city in JL never cut it for me. We even got to see some of the old Superman: The Animated Series Metropolis later in the season, as Timm himself admitted he missed the backgrounds from thier old shows.

There was a cute little season in The Once And Future Thing, Part One, in which Batman and Green Lantern are gossiping about their love lives and Batman is placed in the always awkward situation of speaking about someone you like but trying not to anyone know that you like them, when of course, EVERYONE already knows.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/futurethingpt1/07.jpg

The 3 of them travel back in time to the old west and meet up with Jonah Hex and a few more old school superheroes, which everyone pretty much forgot about by the time the last 30 seconds of the episode aired, as they traveled to the future and meet the Justice League Unlimited. And no, this Jonah Hex doesn't compare to the one in Showdown.

In what could've been a great nod to Back To The Future Part III, when the people ask Batman what his name is, he doesn't reply with “Clint Eastwood” like everyone else would've. Shocking!

Something we'd all been waiting for but never actually got to see – Batman teaming up with Batman Beyond. The episode is a stunner that's for sure – they don't get that much screentime together but what they do have is golden – especially when Old Man Wayne shows up and ridicules our Batman. “I can't believe I was ever this green!”. Classic.

We even get to see The Jokerz from Return Of The Joker, albeit supped up versions of them. Not quite sure how Bonk was still alive, but time travel episodes usually have a glitch in them somewhere. Except the aforementioned Back To The Future of course - still the greatest trilogy of all time in your writer's opinion.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/futurethingpt2/19.jpg

It was especially awesome seeing Terry again, who now acted as the leader of this reality's messed up JLU. The model looks tweaked slightly too - not sure if it's just the colouring, but it doesn't suffer from any downgrade between shows really, even if BB did have consistantly better animation. It's never explained how 'our' Bruce met Terry before he became Batman in the future, but has no recollection of him when he helped him from The Jokerz in Rebirth. Chalk it up to time travel, which phases all characters but the legend that is Marty McFly, the 80's finest creation.

It was all just build up however – the real good stuff between Batman and Terry was another season away, but a lot more had to happen before we got to that...

[Stu]

Anyone else have a sudden urge to watch Back To The Future?

[Bat Bruce]

Anyone else have a sudden urge to watch Back To The Future?

Watched them at the weekend :D I'll agree for now its the greatest trilogy ever, but there are Toy Story's & Batman 3's looming on the horizon, there could be a recount in the future...

Oh, and Bonk is alive because Chronos jumped to a period before ROTJ. I have no idea if thats true, but it's as good a reason as any

[Livy1213]

It hit me hard when Terry was killed by DeeDee and Batman had no idea how important Terry was going to be to him. I wanted to cry. :crying: So happy it was all reset at the end. :)

As for the inconsistency with BB, Old Bruce probably initially thought Terry was just a punk who stole his suit (Bruce never saw Terry's face or heard his real voice or name in Once and Future). The fact that Bruce already had an idea that he was eventually going to hand over the mask to someone new may have been the reason he was more open to Terry being the new Batman even after what happened to Tim. I always thought it was a little too quick the way that Bruce let Terry be Batman but maybe Bruce put two and two together and just let fate happen. It's all retcon, I know, but it's not beyond possibility.

Up next: The Cadmus arc, Amanda Waller, and Epilogue!

[DisneyBoy]

Woah dear now...


Cercerie

...is spelled Circe. Sorry man. Great thread though!

[Rud]

Up next: The Cadmus arc, Amanda Waller, and Epilogue!Wouldnt the Static Shock appearances happen before those?

[DisneyBoy]

Yeah...don't forget the Static Shock episodes. Those were...interesting.


this is something we should’ve seen, especially as Bruce and Dick seem quite chummy in Animal Act

Actually, I remember a very very tense scene in Dick's loft apartment where he's looking over old photos and Batman remains the shadows. They argue. There's even a moment with a beeper in there I think. Plenty of tension, despite the shared screen-time.

I will also defend Wonder Woman - no, the DCAU version didn't really nail what was interesting about her from the start,and having a good start with her character is important. Wonder Woman isn't a Justice League, at least not at heart. She comes to our world to try and heal and fix it, to stop the God of War from messing around in our lives, and to hopefully begin the process of reintroducing her people to the modern world. No, none of those goals can be summed up by a one-line "She fights demons" or "She fights all crime"...but that isn't a negative in my eyes. It makes Diana far more real for her to have several goals, some of which are at odds. What Secret Origins did was depict her as some antsy teenager/rebel pretty girl who is ready to fight and learn about make-up and partying. She had no real life outside of being a member of the JL, and in the comics, she is very much an individual.

Obviously the writers made sure Batman was the only person with other things to do, and that's because they loved him so much. We loved him too, but I still think one of the big flaws of JL was that they didn't show the secret identities living their lives sooner. I'm really happy with what we got in JLU's first two seasons...but I also imagine a different kind of JL show, one where Clark and Lois cover the story of an Amazon warrior from a secret island coming here with a mission of peace, or Wally West investigating a crime scene that requires MM to impersonate a kidnapping victim. That show would have been more immediately appealing to us DCAUers, but it might not have gone the places JLU did.

[Rud]

Yeah...don't forget the Static Shock episodes. Those were...interesting.I thought the one where Static went to the Batman Beyond future was pretty cool.

[Stu]

Season two took was a lot ballsier than anything that came before it in the DCU. Whereas there'd been a few ongoing story lines in their previous shows (most notably the Superman Vs. Darkseid feud from Superman: The Animated Series) but this was the first time they'd used a full season for a storyline and carried out plot points originally starting from the very first episode of Batman: The Animated Series with the mention of Dr. Langstram's Man Bat formula (I remember reading that Man Bat himself would've appeared had the Bat Embargo not been placed upon the show.)

Now is as good as time as any to talk about the Bat Embargo. Due to The Batman airing at the same time as this show, the producers weren't privy to the Batman supporting characters and villains in the Justice League Unlimited. With the venomous attitude towards The Batman, this basically made the fanboy community kick off something fierce and take out it's anger on The Batman (usually here on these forums, in threads they weren't supposed to). It never personally bothered me too much this season, as there wasn't too big a place for any of Gotham's rouges in the Cadmus storyline (I do think it would've been awesome to see some of them in the next season's Legion of Doom). DC Comics has always been really, really stupid with it's use of characters – the absence of Aquaman in season three due to him receiving a live action pilot which had little relation to the character used in JLU only serves to limit his exposure to the 'mainstream' audience who will happily watch JLU every week but never, ever wander into a comic book store to buy an Aquaman book. The terrible Superman Returns movie apparently hindered the use of Lois Lane in the Smallville television series which was even stupider, being that she has been the highlight of it since she arrived.

Alas, no Batman villains or supporting characters in JLU from now on. Let's move on.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/doomsdaysanction/04.jpg

Doomsday Sanction sees the season kick into high gear as Batman investigates Amanda Waller's plans for the Justice League and warns her to back off. Waller assures him her concerns are valid as The League is essentially an unsanctioned army which could easily crush any nation if they wanted to.

One of Cadmus' plans to stop the League was Doomsday, who escapes from their facilities and exacts his revenge on Superman. It's worth noting that this version of Doomsday is far more interesting than the waste of time from the comics and even the one found in the Superman: Doomsday DVD, as this one actually has motivation beyond his fondness for punching things.

Batman himself is gravely injured in the episode, after crashing one of the Javeline's to stop a Kryptonite armed missile from killing Superman and setting off a volcano, which would've cost countless lives. In the episode of the episode, he seems distrusting of Superman, and advises that Waller had a right to fear them – especially as Superman tried to lobotomies Doomsday, just as The Justice Lords did.

The episode personally left me with a great sense of intrigue as to what was going to happen next, just like Spider-Man and The X-Men did back when I was cartoons as a young lad. I much prefer ongoing story lines rather than 22 minute stories.

The story brewed slowly until The League and Cadmus were at war with each other – Clash arguably deliver's the DCU's best fight ever in Superman Vs. Captain Marvel in which Cadmus succeeds in discrediting The League's reputation. I would've liked to see more of Captain Marvel in the show but DC Comics would have none of that would they?

The most surprising character of the show as The Question. A D lister in the DC Comics universe, re imagined as a paranoid detective with a fine love of pop music and talking in riddles, The Question really struck a chord with the show's fans and became more popular than most of the League. Inspired casting in Jeffrey Combs and an oddly appealing visual made the character work on a lot of levels. Naturally, DC Comics response to this? One limited series and then killing him off to do yet another ethnic superhero gimmick. Great work guys.

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Question's investigations lead him to learn that the Justice Lords wasn't an alternative universe – it was a jump in the time steam – essentially, it was their future. Batman himself doesn't appear again until Panic In The Sky where they realise Luthor's role in the whole thing – he has no intention of becoming President – he want's to build an Amazo suit so he can achieve Godhood. Batman gets a classic line that only he could deliver as the founding members agree to turn themselves in while the authorities investigate the giant laser beam situation.

Batman: You want me to what?!
Wonder Woman: Turn yourself over into US custody, along with the rest of us.
Flash: Yeah, that makes sense, OK.
Superman: Meet us at the co-ordinates I'm sending first, we should all go over together.
Batman: This is the single, dumbest plan I've ever head. If you're feeling guilty, clear your own name. Don't stand on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to do it.
Wonder Woman: We've already voted. 5 in favor.
Flash. Six.
Wonder Woman: You have to come with us, Bruce.
Batman: I don't have to do anything, I'm only a part timer remember?

Batman's own investigations lead him to Luthor, and Waller releases the rest of the League to stop him, until he turns into Brainthor, after it's revealed Brainiac had been living dormant in Luthor, since the Ghost In The Machine episode of Superman.

Told you they were going right back through the old shows for this season.

After suckering the League into thinking he'd been defeated, Brainthor goes after the Dark Heart to overtake, well... whatever the hell it wants. In what's a character defining moment for most of the founding members, it creates Justice Lord members to fight them and pick on their insecurities (such as telling Flash he's out of place in a group filled with the biggest heroes in the universe).

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Batman's response? Quite logically, he blows it up. Knowing it wasn't a real life form, he simply throws a Batarang bomb and kills it. Shoot your mouth off now, Justice Lord!

After The Flash defeats Brainthor and the Justice League addresses the world (with Batman out in daylight, ignoring the urban legend/rumour some fans like) he confronts Green Arrow and in a nice book-ended segment tells him the normal people are the ones who guard the guardians, whether they're in the League or not. I'd quote it exactly, but I don't speak Latin. Or Spanish.

The episode was supposed to end with Clark telling Lois that he's Superman, but DC Comics ixnayed that idea. For the season they had left, and knowing that another Superman series wasn't in the cards in this continuity, you wonder why the bothered.

And at least we come to Epilouge.

Realising that the 14 year run was more than likely coming to an end with the end of this season, Timm decided it was time to wrap up a few loose ends, and basically wrote a love letter to the legacy they'd created and answered the age old question that's been on every DCU fans since Batman Beyond premiered – it is the real future of Batman, or just an alternate time line?

To me, it was always the real future. As you'll have read above, I love Batman Beyond, and the show only furthers Bruce Wayne's character – I personally, had no reason to discredit is as none-cannon. To others, it was a tarnish on Batman's legacy and they didn't want it. That's still very much the same – there are numerous fans who love Epilouge, while others don't like it for the same reasons they don't like Batman Beyond.

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The majority of the episode takes place in the future, 15 years after Batman Beyond has concluded. We see a very John Romita Sr Peter Parker esquire Terry invade Amanda Waller's home, looking for answers about his life and she reveals that after the Cadmus disaster, she became the liaison with the League and The government, and deduced that of all the League members, none were more brilliant that Batman. Unfortunately he was getting old and she didn't think the world could function with a Batman, so she went about creating her own, using elements of his DNA.

The black and white segments are Terry's own thoughts/dreams about the situation (as you can tell when he smashes the clock that's the entrance to the Batcave, which is undamaged when Bruce and Terry are talking later on in the episode), and he concludes that Wayne is an evil, paranoid delusional old man so she tells him a story of Wayne's compassion from his time as Batman and takes us back to 'our' time in which Ace from The Royal Flush Gang is about to end the world and Batman stops her – by helping her. Realising that chasing in with both arms swinging will only get him and the rest of this team killed, he instead goes out of his way to try and comfort a terminally ill orphan.

There's a lot of good stuff here for both Terry and Batman. We'll start with Terry.

We see him facing the troubled romantic situation as he and Dana still aren't married because his secret identity puts her in danger. They break up and they even manage to get a homage to Amazing Spider-Man #50 “Spider-Man No More!” In there. Terry's main dilemma of the episode is that he can't be his own man – he is destined to wind up alone and broken, like Bruce. His meeting with Waller changes that, when she says he's not simply a clone of Bruce, you're his son. Realising he is his own man, he decides he will propose to Dana.

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Now for Bruce – well, he gets a happy ending. He finally has the family that was taken away from him when he was a child, and he's still fighting crime, even though he's got to nearing if not over a century old.

There's a few other cool little nods in there – they mention The Joker cloning his DNA onto Tim Drake bringing Return of The Joker into continuity and Phantasm is the assassin who Waller hires, linking both the Mask Of The Phantasm movie and Batman and Robin Annual #1 into the fold, plus we see more of the JLU from The Call and The Green Lantern does more cool stuff with his ring than John Stewart did in the show (wait, you've not read my GL retrospective where I go on and on about that yet, have you?)

It's a great little love letter to fans of the various shows from 1992 and on. Of course, the producers were surprised when another 13 episodes were commissioned. Season long arcs were the way to go from here, and the decision was made to have the League face The Legion of Doom (without ever actually calling them the Legion of Doom, because that's too corny for people called Superman and Wonder Woman to face. Honestly.)

Batman doesn't get up to much in this season – the villain embargo forbade the logical inclusion of The Joker in the Legion. In all honesty, the season is more about Lex Luthor than any of the League. There's some great fanboy stuff in here about Batman and the internet (banned for flaming – I am surprised there was no mention of the legendary bold orange text which will now forever haunt these forums).

The season wasn't as good as the previous one – the first four episodes felt more like build up and filler (I admit I have little to no interest in Hawkman – I thought the version used in Starcrossed was far more interesting) but it got back on fine track with Flash and Substance in which Central City prepares itself for Flash Appreciation Day, and Batman is invited to attend the opening of The Flash Museum, which of course, is the place where The Rouges Gallery plan to team up and kill The Flash together, after their solo efforts only prove embarrassing. The episode is hilarious from start to finish and is Matt Wayne's finest animated effort yet in my opinion – if a Flash animated series is ever green light, Wayne should be the first phone call Warner Bros. Animation make.

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This image has made me yearn for the return of Funny Quotes...

Again, there's not much more Batman does until the finale, in which he and Superman attempt to overcome the now resurrected Darkseid. A God vs a mortal is never a good match, so Batman is there strictly to set up for Superman to whoop Big D's ass. He's not completely overmatched – he's basically a strategist for most of the fight until Darkseid beats him and in turn, Superman beats Darkseid.

There's some fun at the end of the episode, in which Batman decides to give the dozens of villains who've just helped save the world a 5 minute head start. Superman rubs his new found softness in with a cheeky wink to Batman Beyond.

“You're getting soft in your old age”

And that was that – DCU done. Despite strong competition, no superhero animated show has yet to match the quality of the original Batman (but Spectacular Spider-Man has a damn good chance if season three ever gets greenlite) and ever since then, they've rarely, if ever faltered on Batman. Still the greatest version of the character in any medium, Batman and the people behind him managed to change an entire medium of entertainment in 1992 and the effect is still ongoing – Batman is now nothing short of a pop culture phenomenon, and the DCU is a massive reason why.

And no, they've not come close to topping it since.

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[ShadowStar]

So will you be covering The Batman, the relevant DC Universe movies and Batman: The Brave and the Bold as well?

I'm surprised to hear that Man-Bat was going to appear in JLU. In the commentary for "This Little Piggy", it was mentioned that Joker and Harley were meant to show up in that episode, and I heard at one point that Bruce Timm and company wanted to include Scarecrow and Riddler in the Legion of Doom... (Since they had Jeffrey Combs doing the Question, Scarecrow's return was a no-brainer, really. Shame about the Bat-embargo.)

Going off on a bit of a tangent, I hope TSSM does get a few more seasons, but unless it dishes up some incredible episodes, I can't see it topping B:TAS or JL/U. After all, IMO the only episodes so far that have been absolutely fantastic are "Shear Strength" and "Opening Night"...

[Stu]

So will you be covering The Batman, the relevant DC Universe movies and Batman: The Brave and the Bold as well?

Correct. I have another DCU post to do, with Static and MOTB, but I'll be moving onto The Batman after that.


I'm surprised to hear that Man-Bat was going to appear in JLU. In the commentary for "This Little Piggy", it was mentioned that Joker and Harley were meant to show up in that episode, and I heard at one point that Bruce Timm and company wanted to include Scarecrow and Riddler in the Legion of Doom... (Since they had Jeffrey Combs doing the Question, Scarecrow's return was a no-brainer, really. Shame about the Bat-embargo.)

I never got that worked up about it, but it would've been nice to see some Batman villains in The Legion Of Doom. I don't think limiting character appearances is a smart business strategy on the part of Levitz but it appears it's still going on in his absence. I don't see the point in Superman and Wonder Woman not being allowed to appear on The Brave And The Bold - both are at the bare minimum, 3 years away from being anywhere near the big screen. Why limit thier mainstream exposure before then?


Going off on a bit of a tangent, I hope TSSM does get a few more seasons, but unless it dishes up some incredible episodes, I can't see it topping B:TAS or JL/U. After all, IMO the only episodes so far that have been absolutely fantastic are "Shear Strength" and "Opening Night"...

Really? I loved Identity Crisis, Gangland and Final Curtain. And as you mentioned, Opening Night was nothing short of outstanding, beginning to end. Take any 26 episodes from Batman or Justice League Unlimited and I'd say Spectacular Spider-Man is only a hair away from beating them, if not doing so.

Or is that just me, whatever DC's True Believer's call themselves?

[Stu]

Before I move onto The Batman, there's a few odds and sods from DCU Batman that need sorting out.

We'll start with his appearances in Static Shock.

They are all terrible, but I don't care much for the show anyhow. Despite fine writing talent behind the episodes in question, including Paul Dini, Stan Berkowitz and John Semper, there's not a good episode amongst them.

We start with The Big Leagues, which sees Batman and Robin travel to Dakota to stop The Joker. Seeing my two favourite DC heroes guest star to fight my favourite villain should've been seen as a rare treat at the time (I had been deprived of Robin in animation for years) and see Mark Hamill and Kevin Conroy reprise their favourite roles should have been a great experience.

Should, being the key word.


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The episode is terrible. The rap music doesn't fit in with Batman, who is made to look like a fool so Static can save them both from a death trap (which isn't un-similar to the one The Mad Hatter used in Perchance to Dream, in which Batman himself says he walked into like an amateur.) The dialogue is corny, the lead character is unbelievably irritating and the plot is pedestrian.

Season three came around, and Batman again was used as a ratings stunt only this time Static travels to Gotham, so we get to see some of the old TNBA Gotham backgrounds. Quite possibly the highlight of the episode.

Harley and Ivy are the villains this time around (no no prizes for guessing who wrote this episode) as they lure a bang baby to Gotham promising her a cure in exchange for Nailz stealing stuff, because H+I are seemingly incapable of doing this on their own.

The silliest part of the episode is Wayne revealing his identity to Static – a man he has met once, and didn't really get along with. It's far too out of character for Batman, but it makes him and Static seem tight, so they allow it. It's lousy writing from a lousy show – Dini must've had a hell of an off day when he did this, or the story editor butchered it. Or both.


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Oh no, we're not done yet. For a third time, Batman arrives on Static's show to learn new lessons in incompetency, and this time, most of the Justice League is brought along. It's worth noting that whereas before, he was in his TNBA costume, here, the League appears in their costumes as they appear on the show. To say these episodes are ratings stunts, I think they did their job. I know that there's numerous people who wouldn't watch this show unless the guest stars interested them and when they did, they learned the quality of the show wasn't that high. This one was a two part story, just like the Justice League episodes of the time. It's terrible – again, nothing more than an excuse for other heroes to show up and get schooled by Static. It was also odd seeing Brainiac, without Superman showing up.

Superman did however, later turn up in Static, which was by far worse than any episode of Superman: The Animated Series, including Unity, Superman's Pal and Warrior Queen.

I remember actually slightly anticipating Future Shock, which would finally see the return of Batman Beyond to TV. I remember telling my brother Terry would be guest starring in the show but he said it wasn't something he was going to watch and he said I wouldn't like it.

He was right.

Kobra, the most boring of all the BB villains was used, and both future and present Static are as bland and irritating as ever. They even manage to make Terry annoying, something which hadn't happened in his own show or movie. The show was never anything more than a cliched attempted at trying to be Spider-Man while mooching off the popularity of DC heroes. It's bland animation, terrible dialogue and failed attempts to be cool leave this as a show I have no interest in seeing again. It has it's fans, but I aren't among them.

While Justice League was still in production, Warner Bros. Animation announced that a new Batman DVD was in the works. There'd been rumors of these for a few years – a Batman/Green Arrow or a Batman/Plastic Man being chief amongst them, along with the Joker/Bane team up DTV that was to take place before Batman Beyond got in the way. This was a new idea though – entitled Mystery Of The Batwoman it was to feature a new character in Batwoman and feature the return of The Penguin, Bane and Rupert Thorne.


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With Timm not involved, many were skeptic. The rest of the crew looked fantastic though – Curt Geda producing and directing, Alan Burnett writing the story and Micheal Reaves penning the screenplay. I was a bit dubious about an original character being introduced, especially another hero, as Batman already had 3 sidekicks. I was happy to see Robin included in the trailer through.

The trailer bought about much controversy though, due to the recasting of the villains. Henry Silva was a fine Bane, but the real loss here was Paul Williams being replaced by David Odgen Stiers as The Penguin. The voice is alien, and simply doesn't fit in with the character. You should be hearing William's distinctive voice coming out of The Penguin's mouth, as he made the role his own.

I remember thinking it didn't look like that exciting a piece at the time of it's release, but hell, it was another Batman DVD to buy (this was when box sets for Batman: The Animated Series were a pipe dream). Thanks to the fine people at play.com I managed to get a copy a few days before it was released (being the genius that I am, I pre-ordered it and it shipped a few days early. Marvel at my brilliant intellect!)

Here's what I thought back in the day (Christ, 6 years ago. I am getting old!)

It was all right. It's nowhere near as good as Phantasm or Return Of The Joker, but I don't think it was ever intended to be. The mystery kept me guessing, but it was set out in a way where there was no real logical way of finding out who it was.

Still, it was great seeing the Bat-crew again, Robin, Alfred, Gordon and Bullock. Could have done without Batgirl, it felt very out of place.

Overall it was ok film, but some of the stuff wasn't needed, like the shopping scene for starters. The final fight between Bane and Batman was very flat, I was waiting for a great smack in the mouth shot, and a bit of blood, but never got it. Disappointing, because the previous Bane fights have been highlights of the fights in the series.


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And I kept wondering when the 'over-seas' investor was going to pop by, I was thinking that we might have a nice Ra's cameo, but alas no.

And, as a final note, that song when they where in the Iceberg Lounge was annoying.

I think it says a lot about the film that I've only watched it once since doing that review – I sat down and showed it to my brother. Curiously, when he saw it on sale, he bought it but it's still in it's shrink wrapping I think.

I remember having fond memories of listening to Bird Boy complain about the feature when he regrabbed it for World's Finest, knowing I wouldn't have to do any work on his revamp for that page. He got his own back (damn you Iron Man: Animated Adventures!)

Back to the film - the simpleness of the plot, the fact it's filled with awkward scenes and the relative dullness of the new characters and script, surprisingly – I've enjoyed nearly everything Reeves has ever written (Incredible Hulk 1982 baby!) and it's dull animation.

People can complain about TNBA for it's step down in writing quality but at least the show popped on screen. Here? It's horrible. The same coloring problems from Justice League show up here – TNBA designs don't work well with this kind of digital coloring. The animation is also weak – the scene where Kathy is shaking her hips as she walks away from her family is comically bad.

The staging itself is lackluster too – Geda directed some fantastic looking episodes of Batman/Superman/Beyond and X-Men: Evolution (Cyclops Vs. Juggernaut!). As said above, there's nothing to the Batman/Bane fight, which is a drop down – Batman Vs Bane presented some of the best fights scenes in the show this series is based on, and Superman dressed as Batman vs Bane is one of the coolest things that show ever did.

Superbat: Miss me?
Bane: On the contrary Batman I feared you were gone forever. That meant I would never have felt your spine crumble in my hands.

Overall, it's a weak film, which should've been a lot better. Thankfully, it sold far better than expected (which is what they always say about Batman DVDs– they've STILL not realised how popular he is, even after The Dark Knight)

Thankfully, there's a short on the DVD which more than makes up for the film itself. Paul Dini advises there was an episode of Batman he always wanted to do called 'Silent Knight' in which there would be no voices or SFX – the story would be told with only visuals/music. While the episode never quite happened, they were commissioned to do a short for this DVD and the idea came back to do Chase Me.


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The story features Catwoman robbing from Bruce Wayne and Batman chasing through Gotham after her to retrieve her loot. It's nothing grand or epic, but it's fun, like Batwoman was supposed to be, but wasn't. It's also by far the most interesting story with Catwoman ever animated. In the end, after she and Batman kiss, she is finally apprehended by the authorities and taken in. The music is catchy and the animation is better than that found in the main feature. While I've seen Batwoman twice, I've watched this a good few times.

So Batman's not always been outstanding in animation. There's good and bad – sometimes both in the same show – this is never more evident than it was in The Batman.

[ABrown]

I still wonder to this day whether "Chase Me" actually happened, or if it was all in Bruce's head. The end really gave me the impression that it was all in Bruce's head. But if it was just a fantasy, why didn't it have a happier ending? I guess maybe Bruce is just used to not having happy endings in his life.

[klammed]

I still wonder to this day whether "Chase Me" actually happened, or if it was all in Bruce's head. The end really gave me the impression that it was all in Bruce's head. But if it was just a fantasy, why didn't it have a happier ending? I guess maybe Bruce is just used to not having happy endings in his life.

I think it was meant to happen, because there's the contrast between the first time he's looking out the windows, and the second time when the police cars are speeding by.

Chase Me is to date one of my favourite 'episodes', very emotive and wonderfully paced. Never watched Static Shock, but from what Stu's just said, I don't think I ever want to.

[DisneyBoy]

The terrible Superman Returns movie apparently hindered the use of Lois Lane in the Smallville television series which was even stupider, being that she has been the highlight of it since she arrived.

What now...??!?


hat's still very much the same – there are numerous fans who love Epilouge, while others don't like it for the same reasons they don't like Batman Beyond.

I have come to like Batman Beyond over time because it was it's own thing, and succeeded largely on it's own terms. Yes, the better stories involved Bruce Wayne and old TNBA continuity, but still, Terry was well realized, the music rocked, the backgrounds and animation were sharp and there were fun supporting characters like Inque, Blight, Ace, the Jokerz and Curare running about.

I don't like Epilogue for two reasons. First, it totally undermines the success of Batman Beyond by unnecessarily tying Terry to Bruce. He never needed to be his son to be cool, and that's what the original show taught us. "Son of Batman" is a tacky studio-head idea, and the writers managed to find a way around that cliche approach...only to then, at the very last second, pointlessly backtrack. If Batman Beyond could eventually win over someone like me - someone who hated the series for even existing in the first place - then going back and essentially rewriting it's entire history was just treating the show like it wasn't good enough on it's own terms.

Second, the episode was poorly paced, filled with confusing flashbacks and forwards and what-ifs that I - a generally media savvy person - could not comprehend until coming online afterwards and discussing things here. And the cameos. Oh look! The JLU of the future! Andrea Beaumont! I can't fault the producers for wanting to make a story that was a love letter to a 15 year journey, but if there wasn't a strong story there to tell, it wasn't worth it. This totally flies in the face of the DCAU's "subtle and simple" approach to storytelling, in favor of letting characters take a bow. Starcrossed was exactly the way a DCAU show should end. On a high note, not pandering to the audience, but simply taking them on a stunning adventure and leaving them wanting more. Epilogue doesn't work on it's own, or as an endcap to the DCAU. It's just...a mess.

For my money, Chase me is a day-dream of Bruce's. Selina would never, ever rob Bruce Wayne after he'd stuck his neck out for her so many times, and Bruce's mind probably always wanders during those boring parties.


Henry Silva was a fine Bane, but the real loss here was Paul Williams being replaced by David Odgen Stiers as The Penguin.

Um, both were replaced, not just Williams. Bane here was played by the same actor who played Kraagar in Starcrossed, Hector Elizondo. And he was terrible (as Bane).

[Elderly Bruce Wayne]

Never watched Static Shock, but from what Stu's just said, I don't think I ever want to.

Ditto. Although my resolved has weakend and I almost sought out these episodes just to see how the characters were used, I'm glad I never did.

I knew going in that the series is Static Shock, therefore the glory goes to Static -- as it should. Your name's in the title, you get to smell like a rose. The series always struck me as a PC/fanboy standard fare show, and so sterilized, that crossovers would serve to weaken and dumb-down the pros. In Stu's words, I don't want to see my heroes "schooled" by Static, a young man who is supposed to be "a rank ameteur", "a hero-in-training". Nor do I want their involvement serving as a cheap photo-op (sharing of scenes). Still, the curiosity lingers, but all I needed was an honest critique, more than trailers, to convince me that I wasn't missing anything substantial. More apocryphal and blasphemous, so I will continue to stay away from these crossovers.


I don't like Epilogue for two reasons. First, it totally undermines the success of Batman Beyond by unnecessarily tying Terry to Bruce. He never needed to be his son to be cool, and that's what the original show taught us. "Son of Batman" is a tacky studio-head idea, and the writers managed to find a way around that cliche approach...only to then, at the very last second, pointlessly backtrack. If Batman Beyond could eventually win over someone like me - someone who hated the series for even existing in the first place - then going back and essentially rewriting it's entire history was just treating the show like it wasn't good enough on it's own terms.

Good points. "Epilogue" can be a sort of negator to BB. I think we're all in consensus that Batman Beyond was always best when it was the Terry and Bruce show, and worst when it's slides toward Terry and the Teen Angels. At least its creators tried to take a troubled youth, and have him make a chance encounter with a barely-living legend, then rendered half-orphaned leads him to become an impromptu vigilante and later, a protege-mentor team-up. Now come "Epilogue", the rules are changed. He was Wayne's son all along. His gifts were a result of a belated revelation of his DNA, not solely his training. While the story does make sense thanks in large part to crafty writing, and that it conveniently corrects glaring errors of the original series, like Terry and Matt bearing no genetic resemblance to their parents, it's also a punch in the gut that after a three-year investment in coming to terms of the structure of the original series, this epilog gives us more conflict, more to grapple, more head scratching.

Now the future-future is more uncertain than ever. We'll never know because none of the studio heads want to revisit the past, only remake the present... That, and give main heroes kids. So now, after 15 years in real time, and 95 years in Bruce Wayne's lifetime we see he has a biological son. Is he now free to die off having nothing more to teach Terry, and Wayne Enterprises now has a bloodline successor? In retrospect, I'm surprised Ra's Al Ghul didn't deduce Terry's true bloodline and try to usurp his body, an even younger man.

[klammed]

In retrospect, I'm surprised Ra's Al Ghul didn't deduce Terry's true bloodline and try to usurp his body, an even younger man.[/COLOR]

Ra's didn't want Bruce totally young though. He was 'de-aged' only to a certain point. Who knows, maybe he would've tried to eventually take over Terry when he was older?

I never really was that upset about the reveal of Terry being biologically Bruce's. So far though, that was the only biological passing down of Legacy that Batman had before the appearance of Damien in the current comics (who is a little snit and rather annoying imho.. but ignoring that). I actually thought it was rather fitting. Will say this though: it provides more fodder for fanfic writers.:evil:

[Elderly Bruce Wayne]

Ra's didn't want Bruce totally young though. He was 'de-aged' only to a certain point. Who knows, maybe he would've tried to eventually take over Terry when he was older?

Nah. Terry would have to be disposed, or else imprisoned indefinitely as Ra's back-up body. Of course, when Lazarus pits aren't an option, he can usurp bodies, any body, to the end of time. I say go find Vandal Savage and ask him where can he find a special meteorite.

[klammed]

Nah. Terry would have to be disposed, or else imprisoned indefinitely as Ra's back-up body. Of course, when Lazarus pits aren't an option, he can usurp bodies, any body, to the end of time. I say go find Vandal Savage and ask him where can he find a special meteorite.

Haha (: yet another unsolved question: what happened to that immortal fiend?

[Elderly Bruce Wayne]

LOL! It's been a blast getting into a dialog with another user using an Old Bat avatar. But I'll let you have the last word (not that we were dueling), because I have to wrap it up and go to work. Bye.

[Stu]

What now...??!?

I think Lois Lane has been far more interesting than Lana Lang or Chole ever where. Smallville presented one of the best versions of Lois ever.


Um, both were replaced, not just Williams. Bane here was played by the same actor who played Kraagar in Starcrossed, Hector Elizondo. And he was terrible (as Bane).

That's what I said - both were replaced. Didn't care for Elizondo as Bane too much, but I still think it was a really stupid to recast Williams.

And yes, to anwser the questions asked by others, the Static Shock episodes aren't worth hunting down. I've heard better things about The Green Lantern crossover, but I've not seen it to give my own opinion on it.

[Stu]

With Warner Bros. Finally getting their act together and producing a new live action Batman movie, most people assumed that the age old traditional of a new animated spin off airing in the fall would eventually follow. In a backwards twist, they announced that The Batman would start airing in the fall of 2004 on Kids WB! Whereas Batman Begins wouldn't be released until the summer of 2005.

Many fans were up in arms about this – I wasn't among them. I thought it would be cool to see Batman on TV every week again, like when I was a kid. I had seen 2 new versions of Spider-Man come on TV after my favorite Spider-Man cartoon was canceled, so I though I could handle a new Batman animated show.

I had heard about Batman: Wired and didn't like the sound of it (Batman in heavy tech, if I recall). The concept was then rejigged to Batman, in his 3rd year of fighting crime, has wiped out all the city's gangsters and finds himself battling new supervillains.


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A preview aired on Kids WB! On March 13th (my birthday) and I thought it actually looked pretty cool. I liked their Batman model – it didn't seem as kiddified as I originally thought it might be. There were only a few lines of dialogue found, and we had no idea which characters were actually speaking, but I remember hearing Clancy Brown's voice (who of course, was later cast as Mr. Freeze.)

Then, the real hype for the show began. If you're a network executive reading this, write this down for future reference. It's called “how not to promote your show”, and it stars Sam Register. In an interview to be published online, at San Diego Comic Con which is basically the largest gathering of nerds in the history of the universe, Register says (I paraphrase, as I can't quite find the exact quote)

“This is not a Batman aimed at 25 year olds living in their parents basement. This is a new Batman aimed at a younger audience” and went on to add that the characters would not be psychologically developed.

This from the man who decided shows like JLU had no place on CN (and you'll see from the 3rd season's airings that he tried to get rid asap, despite the fact it's outlived any of the other shows he's executive produced, and they still make new toys of it. Genius work there Register. Worryingly, he was the executive producer of the recent Batman/Superman DVD.)

Despite this fool's best efforts, I was still looking forward to the show. When I downloaded a sneek preview to review for Toon Zone News, I had to congratulate Register – there was absolutely nothing here for people my age, or anyone whose age can be counted in double digits.


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The Bat In The Belfry was the first episode produced in which The Batman has his first encounter with The Joker. The episode starts with Batman taking down Rupert Thorne (no more crime bosses, bad idea, I'll get to why later) and Alfred treating Batman to a cake to celebrate 3 years of him being a crime fighter.

Producer Jeff Matsuda designed the look of the show and it's weird. It works well (some cases more than others) but aesthetically, The Batman was a very pleasing show. The models are out there, but most of them do work. I was especially impressed with most of Batman – the cape looks ace, and the costume's pretty cool. It's sleeked and animated very well and popped with the show's magnificent staging. The show wasn't violent but the action was dramatic, so there were no complaints here. His face is a bit messed up – in an attempt to make Batman younger, they had redesigned his trade mark square jaw and given him circular eyes instead of the traditional triangles, neither of which worked too well. His jaw just looked weird and it was more difficult to have the character emote with the eyes – plus, it wasn't remotely scary, which is what Batman should be. Bruce Wayne was simply odd – the same jaw problem continues and he was given a boxer's nose, which simply made for a really ugly character model, not really what the Prince of Gotham should look like. I can see elements of Christian Bale in there, if someone took a sledgehammer to his face.

Casting wise, the show made some horrible decisions from the word go. Rino Romano, best known previously as the voice of Spider-Man from the then recent Playstation Games and Spider-Man: Unlimited was cast as the lead, and... it didn't work. He made already cheesy lines sound corny and couldn't pull off a convincing tough guy voice – his Batman sounded far too forced. Epic fail here.


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Alistair Duncan was no better as the always annoying Alfred – Batman's butler had some strange male PMS thing going on throughout the show's run. None of the traditional Fatherhood figure or his dry sense of humor could be found here. Chalk up another failure.

The premiere was a downright horrendous experience for me. As poor as Batman and Alfred were portrayed, they'd done a far worse job with The Joker. My favourite Batman villain was absolutely butchered in everything thinkable aspect. The design made him look like a homeless Jamaican, the talented Kevin Micheal Richardson was horrendously miscast and the character was just an idiot – nothing remotely clever, brilliant or deep about him. I'm not sure were they drew their inspiration from for The Joker because he's never, ever been this bad.

I remember watching it and thinking it had little redeeming qualities beyond it's superlative animation. I wasn't going to write the show off on the weakness of one episode and I really liked some of the designs in the title credits for future episodes – Man Bat in particular looked fantastic.

I stuck around and enjoyed The Call of The Cobblepot more than I thought I would but it was still demographic grabbing crap – there's no excuse for alienating such a large portion of an audience just because you want to sell toys. I mean – Batman The Animated Series managed to cater for both older and younger audience, and they continued selling toys long after the show stopped airing (they still make them now, 16 years on! Proof Mr. Executive!)

Then I watched Traction. Good lord, I've not seen such a blatant excuse for an action figure commercial since that God awful Power Rangers crap. They might as well have placed a massive banner in the episode advising that the Batbot was on sale now at your local Toys R' Us. It was a shame – besides his silly teeth, Bane looked really cool. Him being a man of normal build before pumping the venom into himself to create a Hulk like transformation was nothing short of genius – as was changing his skin to red, which gave him a naturally angry, aggressive look.


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I didn't bother with the rest of the show until Jim Harvey recommended I check out it's 2 part season finale.

One of the main focuses of the show was that Batman himself was a vigilante in which the terrible 2 dimension police wanted to bring in. Detective Yin and Ethan Bennet were original characters that were simply boring. Commissioner Gordon was off limits due to his upcoming appearance in Batman Begins.

Jim told me a gentleman by the name of Greg Weisman penned these two episodes. I told him I didn't know who that was, but he still recommended I should check it out. So I sat down and watched the episodes – this Joker was still deeply irritating but some attempt was made at giving him motivation – presumably in a nod to Jack Nicholson's Joker, who described himself as “The world's first fully functioning homicidal artist”. The best part came when the poop hit the fan between Batman and Yin. “Next time we meet the masks coming off” and then the shocker among shocker of cliffhanger ending's when Ethan's face started melting off, and he eventually became Clayface. They'd essentially stolen Harvey Dent's back story and crafted it onto Clayface, but eh, it was still miles more interesting than anything else any of the other villains had to offer. Dent himself was off limits, despite not actually appearing in Batman Begins. I don't know why, but have been advised by people in the know not to try and add logic to the Bat Embargo because it will drive me loopy.


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The season ends with Bennett leaving and Yin and Batman forming an uneasy alliance. I did want to like this show, and these episodes were an improvement upon what I'd seen so I thought I'd give it a second chance. I caught the rest of the season in reruns and still wasn't impressed, but convinced myself to give season two a chance. The episodes I'd missed were more of the same – Batman easily outwitting any obstacle put his path and providing numerous ill-fated puns and silly over the top performances from the actors. Despite some sweet designs, I found myself struggling to sit through the episodes. I've not laid eyes on most of the episodes since I viewed them, as there was nothing really interesting to go back and look at.

I watched The Bat, The Cat and The Very Ugly. Mediocrity personified. It wasn't until Riddled came along that I thought the show was worth sticking around for. The majority of the writers and the story editors didn't grasp the concept of Batman in the slightest, and thought dumbing it down would work. It didn't – even the good episodes of the show are let down by ill characterisation, stupid dialogue or the juvenile attempt at humor. It was refreshing to see a villain try and outwit Batman because to be honest, every other villain in the show was a complete idiot – none of the plots were clever and Batman outsmarted and outwitted them everytime. There were no mobsters either – it didn't really seem like Gotham needed a Batman. Nothing was a challenge for him, which meant that there was little drama to any of the episodes.

In short? This city deserved a better class of criminal. The Riddler was leagues above anyone else – the design didn't really fit the character but Robert Englund did a good job voicing him (which made a rare change – either the villain voices were too OTT or they sounded like they couldn't be arsed to be there.)

After that, the season was hit and miss. It made improvements over the first season (which are always tricky on the overbearing Kids WB! Network) JTV, Swamped and Pets are pretty mediocre, but not as bad as the likes of Q+A, or The Big Dummy. Weisman returns to Clayface in Meltdown, a superior follow up to the Clayface of Tragedy. One can't help but feel this show would've astronomically better if Weisman were it's storyeditor rather than just occasionally freelancing.


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The Butler Did It gives the season another strong episode as it actually introduces a villain with genuine motivation to the show from a character from the comic books from the 50's that most had forgotten about. Fire and Ice is another stellar effort – not because of it's unoriginal plot, but because Gotham City covered in snow looked beautiful. The episode is a visual delight, the best The Batman ever looked – Sam Liu does his finest ever work here and the animation shines like never before. Bravo sir.

Comic scribe Adam Beecham pops by for Ragdoll to Riches, which is simply great fun. I have no time for this version of Catwoman but Ragdoll was a brilliant villain – great action scenes, a terrific voice for Ragdoll in Jeff Bennet and a stunning chase the gem sequence make this one of the season's highlights.

Batman's finest development in the show comes in Strange Minds in which Batman enters The Joker's subconscious to try and find out where he is hiding Detective Yin.

Dr. Hugo Strange, arguably the show's most interesting villain (another intelligent one, rather than someone who stands there while Batman practices his aim with a batarang) creates a device that allows him access to The Joker's brain and the two of them race to try and find Yin's location. Strange uses the opportunity to analyze both Batman and Joker and is accurate in his assessment of Batman.

Strange: Clearly you posses a deep routed need to rescue?
Batman: Focus Professor, Yin's running out of time!
Strange: A very strong need. Could it stem from a past trauma, perhaps someone you once failed to rescue?


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Good ol' Weisman, building up for future Strange/Batman appearances.

The show had become watchable at this point – it wasn't outstanding by any stretch of the imagination, but it was usually worth 22 minutes of your time. I happily picked up the DVD when it was released and would recommend it to a Batman fan.

The final seconds were a turn around for the show. In the second season finale, James Gordon was introduced and the two dimension cops were written out for the start of season three. Some bright spark over at the network decided Batman should be more accessible to girls, so the mandate came down that Batgirl was to feature prominently in season three.

But first, the people of Gotham were going to find out who really rules the night...

[klammed]

Elderly Bruce Wayne: Gotta Love Old Man Wayne :D

Now before I go off topic... I must say thank you Stu for penning down essentially what I felt about the whole The Batman show. The animation was ace, but the stories and characterisation was pretty much geared towards the same kids who would watch a mindless Pokemon episode (no offence to Pokemon fans).

[Wonderwall]

I remember when The Batman first was announced, I was one of the many who didn't like it soley based on designs. Although eventually I ended up watching the show, and liking it enough, I had pretty much the same impressions you did there Stu. Same goes for my thoughts on designs and some VAs. I like KMR but he was never a fit for Joker, although I can't imagine anyone ever fitting that model. I actually had no problem with Rino Romano, I didn't think he was anything special but I thought he did well.

[Michael24]

I remember when The Batman first was announced, I was one of the many who didn't like it soley based on designs.
I was exactly the same way. I thought the designs (except for Batman) looked ugly and I just had no interest in it. But after catching bits and pieces here and there, I decided to pick up Season 1 and 2 when I saw them marked down to $9.99 one day. JLU was over, B:TAS was virtually burned into my memory, and I had hankering for some new Batman adventures. To my surprise, I loved it. I went through both seasons in just two days.

It's not B:TAS, but that's a tough order to live up to anyway. I just took the show as it's own thing, and I really enjoyed it. I still haven't seen Season 5 yet, and it's been awhile since I watched the others, so I plan to have a marathon when I have the time. I liked The Batman versus Dracula as well.

I also had no problem with Rino Romano and thought he did a good job.

[young101]

is the teaser for the batman still available anywhere? I recall seeing it when I was young but I would love to see it again.

[Shredhead]

Oh god the The Batman I really did want to love that show I tried so hard to do so. I agree with pretty much everything you said on it. While it wasn't all that bad season 2 and the great season 4 were good points but for the most part this show never should have been made.



Batman's finest development in the show comes in Strange Minds in which Batman enters The Joker's subconscious to try and find out where he is hiding Detective Yin.

Dr. Hugo Strange, arguably the show's most interesting villain (another intelligent one, rather than someone who stands there while Batman practices his aim with a batarang) creates a device that allows him access to The Joker's brain and the two of them race to try and find Yin's location. Strange uses the opportunity to analyze both Batman and Joker and is accurate in his assessment of Batman.



Dont forget to mention the great casting on this one Frank Gorshin or also known as the 60's Riddler.

[KillerMoth]

I love The Batman but agree the first two seasons were pretty mediocre for the most part, but I honestly think the first three Clay face episodes are easily on a par with BTAS' best, as is Strange Minds. Riddled was fantastic too.

I'm surprised at the dislike of Rino Romano's Batman voice, I watched through all the series in a couple of weeks and remember thinking that his was just perfect in portraying a young Batman and Bruce Wayne.

[Stu]

I remember when The Batman first was announced, I was one of the many who didn't like it soley based on designs. Although eventually I ended up watching the show, and liking it enough, I had pretty much the same impressions you did there Stu. Same goes for my thoughts on designs and some VAs. I like KMR but he was never a fit for Joker, although I can't imagine anyone ever fitting that model. I actually had no problem with Rino Romano, I didn't think he was anything special but I thought he did well.

I'm still not entirely sure what purpose thier Joker was supposed to serve. He was neither threatening nor funny - he seemed to just randomly show up with little to no reasoning. What did he want? To make people laugh, to terrify them, to finally beat Batman?

There's a scene in The Batman Vs Dracula in which vampire Joker tells Batman that he complete's him - they hinted at it there, but that's the only thing I can ever recall. An epic fail here.

It appears I am alone in my dislike for Romano as Batman though - I never throught he fit at all.


Dont forget to mention the great casting on this one Frank Gorshin or also known as the 60's Riddler.

I did forget to mention him - one of the better casting descions the show made. However decided to bring Andrea Romano in from season 4 and onwards deserves a hero cookie.

[Stu]

When The Batman Vs Dracula was announced, I had confidence enough in the show to plunk down a few of the Queen's English pounds to see it. I thought Dracula was weird enough to work in Matsuda's word and the reviews that came in before I saw it (erm, Bird Boy's) said it was worth picking up.

I still think it's the best The Batman's ever been.

There's a few problems – the casting is the same as the TV show (naturally), there's still the odd corny line in there (mainly from Alfred and The Joker's “jokes”) but the story itself is good as Dracula is by far the best villain the show ever had – because he was actually presented as a challenge to the caped crusader.


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Duane Capizzi, who to be blunt, wrote some horrible episodes for the show, turned in a cracking screenplay here, with numerous references to Bram Stoker's popular novel, and crafted a fascinating villain. He noted the similarities between Batman and Nosferatu, and the same standards of visuals were kept up for this feature. I also liked the similarity in thier designs - Dracula's cape had similar highlights to Batman's and the two meshed well together on screen. The fact that Dracula handed Batman his ass on their first meeting left an impression – I remember being thoroughly impressed the first time I saw this and to my surprise, my Brother, a longtime The Batman basher said it was an excellent film.


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I also really loved the flashback sequence to his parent's death. They had all been but ignored in the show, whether or not that was the choice of the creative team or if it was a network mandate to avoid tying in with Batman Begins, I do not know. Rarely mentioning his origin or backstory before he became Batman really hurt his character in the show.

Turning The Joker into a vampire made for a really creepy design and gave KMR something different (and to be honest, better) to work with – vampire Joker was far more interesting than... whatever the hell he was supposed to be in the series.

The feature is far darker and violent than anything else found in The Batman – there's frequent amount of blood, some genuinely creepy images to be found whenever normal people are turned into 'lost ones' the features substitute for vampires and Batman gets the crap kicked out of him. The final battle between Batman and Dracula ends in a terrifying shriek as essentially, Batman burns Dracula alive, with his skull still smoking as his skin is teared from it. Nice.


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One of the main things which differentiates the show from the movie, is that it wisely introduces a romantic subplot in there, with the only animated appearance ever (to my knowledge) of Vicki Vale. A reporter trying to find out who Batman is could've made for some interesting stories in the series itself (think Jack McGee) but alas, she never made the transition over the show. Shame.

The film is by far the best story told in this continuity – it's actually one of the better animated Batman movies. It's not quite up there with Mask of The Phantasm or Return Of The Joker but's far better than Batwoman, Subzero, Public Enemies and Gotham Knight. If you've not seen it, order it online now.

Unfortunately, the show would go down in quality before it went up again.

[klammed]

It appears I am alone in my dislike for Romano as Batman though - I never throught he fit at all.


Not alone. I wasn't fond of him. He did seem to get better as the show went on, but for a lot of it he did sound like someone pretending to be Batman rather than Batman himself. This was probably due to the 'younger' sound they were going for, I'm guessing.

Not related, but design wise I didn't like the pointy chin. The pointy chin bothered me a lot. I could never get used to it, and thankfully they changed to a slightly more squared jaw later on. I mean, you read things in the comics where he's got such a 'huge jaw'... just didn't fit, younger batman or no.

Oh yeah, and Batman Vs Dracula was excellent in so many ways. Better than Batwoman, certainly. Are you mentioning Batgirl yet? (I found her so annoying in this series). Loved this continuity's Robin though.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

See, I'm in the complete opposite side of opinion. I found Batgirl to be more likeable, and actually worked hard to win her position as Batman's sidekick. The problem is that she was crammed into so many episodes she didn't need to be in. If she would have had less appearances, I doubt many of us would be complaining.

Robin, on the other hand, was only cool on his first appearance. After that, he became an annoyingly perfect Gary Stu. He was also crammed into every episode of the last two seasons, and sometimes the stories would be hurt by it (see "The End of the Batman").

[Shredhead]

Oh boy cant wait for the next part here comes the dark ages of Batman in animation The Batgirl. I hope you dont get to caught up in ripping apart Batgirl you dont forget about the also terrible Poison Ivy.

[Stu]

Not alone. I wasn't fond of him. He did seem to get better as the show went on, but for a lot of it he did sound like someone pretending to be Batman rather than Batman himself. This was probably due to the 'younger' sound they were going for, I'm guessing.

That's exactly it for me. Out of all the people to play Batman, this is the one I've heard that just felt wrong on every level. There's noting to fear, no authority to it and there's nothing sexy to it either - both Romano's Batman and Bruce Wayne fail to tick any of the required boxes.


Not related, but design wise I didn't like the pointy chin. The pointy chin bothered me a lot. I could never get used to it, and thankfully they changed to a slightly more squared jaw later on. I mean, you read things in the comics where he's got such a 'huge jaw'... just didn't fit, younger batman or no.

Exactly, again. These are basic Batman qualities - simple, simple stuff about him, and they failed. If you can't do basic things like get his eyes, jaw and face right, how are you going to crack on with the more complicated aspects to his personality?


Oh yeah, and Batman Vs Dracula was excellent in so many ways. Better than Batwoman, certainly. Are you mentioning Batgirl yet? (I found her so annoying in this series). Loved this continuity's Robin though.

...Are you me, in disguise? :p


See, I'm in the complete opposite side of opinion. I found Batgirl to be more likeable, and actually worked hard to win her position as Batman's sidekick. The problem is that she was crammed into so many episodes she didn't need to be in. If she would have had less appearances, I doubt many of us would be complaining.

It was part of the problem - she, like Max in Batman Beyond, was shoved down our throats too quickly and too forcefully.


Robin, on the other hand, was only cool on his first appearance. After that, he became an annoyingly perfect Gary Stu. He was also crammed into every episode of the last two seasons, and sometimes the stories would be hurt by it (see "The End of the Batman").

Not sure what a Gary Stu is, but I disagree entirely. I think Robin is what the show was missing from the very beginning, but I'll get to that later.

[Stu]

Season three was the introduction of Batgirl to the show, again at the insistence of an executive who I assume was trying to ruin the network into the ground (mission accomplished). I'm not a Batgirl fan (I think the additional sidekicks beyond Robin add a juvenile tone to the stories and Batman himself). The show was hit and miss as it was, and I went into this season thinking the network was going to have it's fingerprints over it like they did with the first season and armed with the knowledge that a Batgirl spin off was planned, I went in neither optimistic nor dreading what the future held for the show.


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I found myself presently surprised to find that I really enjoyed Batgirl Begins, the opening 2 part story in which she is introduced. Her design is a nice nod to the 60's show – could've done without them revamping the theme tune, but it's nothing really worth complaining about. I actually enjoyed the new, original villain in Tremblor, because I'm a fan of The Shocker, who he was clearly based on. The legendary Jim Cummings even uses his Shocker voice for the character – a nice nod to my old favourite Spider-Man: The Animated Series. Teenage Poison Ivy works surprisingly well – as a foil for Batgirl more than anything else. I don't see her being much of a match for Batman on her own - there's noting especially remarkable about her, but at least she didn't suck terribly like... The Joker, Catwoman, Scarface, The Cluemaster, Man Bat, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze... need I go on? It would be easier to announce who the show didn't ruin.

So indeed, I did enjoy seeing Batgirl in the show. However, my mood quickly changed when they did a Max and then took every opportunity to shove her down our throats – Batgirl became the star, not Batman. The season became more about Batgirl, who became more and more grating as time went on, to the point where I was sick of watching the show. I eventually sat through most of them (from the WF episode reviews, I think I've seen all of them bar Thunder – I don't seem to recall Maxie Zeus appearing in the show). The season also has a large amount of filler Joker/Penguin episodes, none of which are even remotely interesting. The show had become stuck in a rut - they attempted a few original villains too, with dire results. The fact I can barely remember thier names isn't a good sign - there was a poor attempt at a Toyman style villain, and then another blatant toy plug with a 22 minute commerical for the new Batmobile, which didn't look as cool as the first one. It was clear that the execs were running the show again.


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The highlight of the season is actually one of the show's comedy moments in Fluers Du Mal as Batman punches the plant disguised as an old lady right in the face. It came out of nowhere but was absoloutly brilliant, just sensational. I remember Bird Boy and I laughing at that one for hours when I first saw it – easily the show's funniest moment.

The rest of the season is drivel, however, good news was a afoot! With Teen Titans now canceled, Robin was free to be featured in the show.

Could the dynamic duo make the show worth watching again?

[M.O.D.O.K.]

Not sure what a Gary Stu is, but I disagree entirely. I think Robin is what the show was missing from the very beginning, but I'll get to that later.

The term "Gary Stu" is the male version of the term "Mary Sue". Both terms are used to describe a character that is annoyingly flawless and perfect. Someone who is loved or respected without doing much to earn it. Like I previously mentioned, I enjoyed him in "A Matter of Family", but afterwards, I felt he was just crammed into too many episodes, and was not that interesting.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As long as we can both agree that Batman: Arkham Asylum is made of epic win.:D

[Stu]

Before the fourth season began airing, plenty of changes had changed behind the scenes on the show. Duane Capizzi was no longer story editor and was replaced with the show's most consistent writer in Micheal Jelenic. This resulted in the cheesy one liners were on their way out, the characters were now actually going to be developed beyond their gimmicks and the show no longer existed solely to tick demographic boxes – with Jelenic now running the show from a writing point of view, numerous improvements were made for which he should be applauded. The network seemed less interested in ruining the show (which translates to they pretty much left them alone to run the show, presumably as they had new shows to look after) and, thank The Lord, Andrea Romana became the show's voice director, which meant she was in charge of casting the new characters and bringing out the best in the one's already cast, which she's shown she's the best in the biz at time and time again.

I remember a presentation at comic con making it's way online in which the creators discussed their plans for the series and I remember thinking it did look like a very cool season. The most excitement was the fact that Robin would make his debut in the show and after a loooonnng wait, I would finally see the Dynamic Duo back on TV! They also showed us the new Batman and Bruce Wayne models – the square jaw was back and improved the design dramatically – it's now difficult to watch the first 3 seasons with the irregular jaw.


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I admit to being really excited for it (along with the new Fantastic Four show which also debuted the same day. I was less excited for the new Legion show, and I gave up on that after a single episode.)

Upon first review of A Matter Of Family, I thought it was the show's best episodes – it's still up there among the top 5 now. The episode sees the introduction of the Grayson's, and as The Zucco's attempt to bully them into buying their protection, Batman intercepts their threat and fights The Zucco brothers and Fancy Dan (I can't remember his real name, but the remaining Zucco brothers beyond Tony were modeled after The Enforcers as a nod to the old school Spider-Man comics of the 60s.)

It will sound strange, as the show deliberately went out of it's way to avoid Batman fighting 'normal' villains, but Zucco was by far the best villain the show ever produced. His casting helped, with Mark Hamill again proving he's one of the true elite when it comes to voice acting. There was something creepy about his portrayal of Zucco – I especially liked him explaining his origin of sorts to Batman – the trained Knife thrower was a cool gimmick, as was tying him into the circus through his own past. Zucco's always been worth watching in animation – I think the original Batman show did a great job with him, and his casting.


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Kevin Conroy was cast as John Grayson, Dick's Dad. Call it stunt casting if you like, but it was great to see him on the show – he's not just a great Batman, he's a great actor. Romano does it again.

The show did a great job with Robin from day one. The costume isn't as cool as TNBA days but it's still awesome. Casting – again, kudos to Romano. Spot on. Looking back on the show now, I think a lot of it's problems could've been solved if they'd have simply made the show Batman and Robin from the start. I realise they couldn't because of Teen Titans but I think the show improved dramatically with his presence. It gave the younger audience their relatable hero to route for and if finally allowed Batman to be, well, more like the Batman we know and love. There's a final example of this in the episode in question, as Batman tracks down Zucco at the club. This episode sees him as The Dark Knight for the first time since he burned Dracula alive. It was nice to see him playing detective too – it seems they finally understood Batman at long last with this episode.

The season continues it's strong start with Team Penguin which introduces Robin to Batgirl as The Penguin creates his sole group of supervillains to combat Batman – which is actually pretty smart. In a cool twist, we got to see Ragdoll again. The episode is just plain fun from beginning to end, and well... out of all The Penguin episodes, this is by far the most fun. Both he and The Joker were arguably the worst villains in the show – it didn't seem to help that one of them appeared every other episode. The difference between this version of Penguin and the other episodes? He's actually seen to be somewhat intelligent - and by somewhat, I mean he's not treated like a complete moron. Building his own team was a good plan - therefore presenting a challenge for Batman, creating a more interesting episode - how is Batman going to stop a team of 5 supervillains? The premisis is actually intriguing, rather than looking at the TV thinking how is Batman going to easily tharwt whatever dumb ass plan the villain has cooked up this week.

In fairness, I could just sit here and review each episode of the show – but I (or Bird Boy or Penguin) did that for World's Finest (www.worldsfinestonline.com), but to summarise, the season is absolutely great. We got a kick ass version of Batman and Robin and even characters who are usually irritating manage to pull off a great episode. We even get a new villain in Black Mask, who was all kinds of awesome. The lack of movement in his face made for a memorable villain and James Remar really sold BM as a scary mofo with his continued assurances to Robin and Batgirl that this wasn't some story where Batman's going to come to save the day. I'd never claimed to be a Black Mask fan before seeing him in this show, but for the B grader he is in the comic books, he's easily one of the better villains in the show.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/thebatman/episodes/47twoofakind/25.jpg

This season also finally saw the introduction to Harley Quinn, written by none other than Dini himself. I actually prefer this origin to the Mad Love episode, which always had something off about it (I think the main thing that jilts me on the episode is that the book it's based upon is far superior). Instead of the traditional psychiatrist at Arkham she's redone as a cheap, crap TV agony aunt for the broken hearted. As with Batman with Robin, Joker is much more entertaining when Harley is around (again, you'd wish they'd brought her in earlier too.) Her design is very faithful to Timm's original with the exception of the lack of pupils in her eyes. Hynden Walch voices Harley and to be honest, she's just doing her best impression of Arleen Sorkin (there's very familiar dialogue in this one.) Some might accuse the creative team or laziness in this approach, but I think it works really well. She can sing too – and so can Kevin Micheal Richardson. I wasn't expecting a musical number ever in The Batman, but they snuck one in and the episode's better for it. I think this episode would've been a fine send off for The Joker, but no, many more pointless appearances were to follow.

We finally see a villain developed beyond his costumed persona in Riddles, in which Batman and The Riddler find themselves stuck in a cargo holder sinking in the river, in which Nygma explains Batman's own involvement in his transformation into The Riddler. DCUA veteran Stan Berkowitz scripted this one and it's one of his better efforts. Again, this is another top 5 episode. Watching this season made you wonder what the hell they were playing at for the previous 3.

Rumours was supposed to see the animated debut of then recent comic villain Hush until DC's silly embargo's got in the way (too soon for him to appear apparently, whatever that means.) Then we get to the finale, which was to lead to season's 5 formation of The Justice League.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/thebatman/episodes/51thejoiningpt1/27.jpg

Detective John Jones joins Gotham PD and warns Batman of an incoming invasion from The Joining, advising him that the planet is at risk. Jones is of course The Martian Manhunter, and Batman displays some of his most bad ass moments fighting the alien. Bats gets some great lines in here, with some nice nods to previous episodes. “Tell that to Clayface” being the best one. I especially liked how he blocked John from reading his mind. The episode is slower than most, as it builds up to Part Two, which isn't anywhere near as cool as The Joining is an organism, rather than an actual villain with personality. Lucias Fox is introduced in the episode as an ally, and is clearly based on the Batman Begins version rather than the comic book character.

The season ends with MM telling Batman there are more like them and transports him to the Watchtower, which Batman has already taken over. Hawkman, Green Arrow, The Flash and Green Lantern have none speaking cameos in the final seconds of the show, to set up there appearances in season 5.

And that was that. The end to an utterly awesome season, and one that left me really looking forward to season 5. I've found myself watching this season on DVD a lot since purchasing it – if you're a The Batman basher, I'd ask you buy it yourself and check it out. It took them long enough, but they finally did Batman justice. Can the same be said for the rest of the League?

[klammed]

Exactly, again. These are basic Batman qualities - simple, simple stuff about him, and they failed. If you can't do basic things like get his eyes, jaw and face right, how are you going to crack on with the more complicated aspects to his personality?



They got his eyes wrong? :p I kid, I kid. But yeah, jaw. I will never forget Silver St. Cloud's momentous epiphany and going 'YASS' when reading it because up till then I'd only ever really seen the DCAU Bats.



...Are you me, in disguise? :p


I see. I must find some way to disagree with you somewhere along the lines *nods* ;)



It was part of the problem - she, like Max in Batman Beyond, was shoved down our throats too quickly and too forcefully.

Not sure what a Gary Stu is, but I disagree entirely. I think Robin is what the show was missing from the very beginning, but I'll get to that later.

Gary Stu is the male version of a Mary Sue. Fans basically living out their little fanboy fantasies through the character to the point where characterisation is heavily compromised. Agreeing about the Max/Batgirl thing (oh, there flies my promise, lol).

I think another thing that bothered me wasn't the whole 'Batman is younger' concept, but that towards the end of The Batman, Spectacular Spiderman came along, which basically did the whole 'de-aging' thing without dumbing down character development (and I don't even follow Marvel Comics, my exposure to Spiderman comes mostly from the 90s animated series). That made me look even less favourably at The Batman.

[Wonderwall]

The fourth season was the best this show ever did become. Makes you wonder how much better could it have been if they had this team and approach for the first 3 seasons. But then again maybe this was more of a fluke as the last season I thought was pretty horrendous.

[klammed]

THE JAW, THE JAW! Oh, and the coolest designs I've seen for MM so far.



The costume isn't as cool as TNBA days but it's still awesome.


Okay, disagreeing there (finally!) I put this above the TNBA drake suit purely because it managed to incorporate the green. And the cape was the awesomeness for this Robin, even if they did kinda base the design off TT's one. I mean, lookit that little kid! It was the Dick Grayson look I wasn't too keen on.

[ShadowStar]

This season also finally saw the introduction to Harley Quinn, written by none other than Dini himself. I actually prefer this origin to the Mad Love episode, which always had something off about it (I think the main thing that jilts me on the episode is that the book it's based upon is far superior).

I saw the "Mad Love" episode long before I read the "Mad Love" comic; I thought then and still think now that it's one of the top 3 episodes of TNBA. Maybe you didn't care for the episode because you already knew what was going to happen in it? I think that episode is vastly superior to "Two of a Kind".

[Stu]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. As long as we can both agree that Batman: Arkham Asylum is made of epic win.:D

There is nothing better to describe Batman: Arkham Asylum other than epic win! :D


They got his eyes wrong? I kid, I kid. But yeah, jaw. I will never forget Silver St. Cloud's momentous epiphany and going 'YASS' when reading it because up till then I'd only ever really seen the DCAU Bats.

They did in the first few season - he looked goofier than scary. They fixed it in the season 4 redesign, but again, if you can't do the basics, how are you going to do the complicated stuff?


The fourth season was the best this show ever did become. Makes you wonder how much better could it have been if they had this team and approach for the first 3 seasons. But then again maybe this was more of a fluke as the last season I thought was pretty horrendous.

I think the toy boys were back in charge from season 5 and on - having the JL members show up just reeked of getting more heroes on the toy shelf. The Batman was nothing more than a fad to them - the show was more or less completely forgotten about by the time it ended.


Okay, disagreeing there (finally!) I put this above the TNBA drake suit purely because it managed to incorporate the green. And the cape was the awesomeness for this Robin, even if they did kinda base the design off TT's one. I mean, lookit that little kid! It was the Dick Grayson look I wasn't too keen on.

I do like this design - it definatly pops. I'd rake it above the TT design, but TNBA is still my favourite ever Robin costume. I admit it was really off putting to see it coloured so badly in the Batwoman DVD - it looked to rich and popped superbly during TNBA.


I saw the "Mad Love" episode long before I read the "Mad Love" comic. I thought then and still think now that it's one of the top 3 episodes of TNBA. Maybe you didn't care for the episode because you already knew what was going to happen in it? I think that episode is vastly superior to "Two of a Kind".

I think already having read the book is a part of the problem, yes, I can see that. I think HQ is a little too over the top in the episode, which should've been downplayed a bit, given the darkness of the story they were trying to tell. I admit to missing the seduction scene too, because it shows a side to Harley that she'd too whatever it took to get on top - including starting her training with Arkham's most vicious pyscho.

I think there's a lot more fun to be had in Two Of A Kind. Although, I was always impressed with Batman's escape - trying to get through to Harley was a genius twist. And that Batman laugh is really creepy...

[Stu]

With season 5 being confirmed as the last of the show, I was expecting it to be more of the same of season 4. Sadly, I was very wrong. I'll come back to that point though.

With this being the season of team ups, the first place to start was naturally with Superman. The Man of Steel was absent from season four, and had apparently refused Batman's invitation to join the League. I personally like that Batman's in charge and recruiting now – I think it's more in character for him to assemble a team to help him overcome threats he wouldn't be able to on his own.


http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br1.jpg

There's definite chemistry between him and Superman as their roles are reversed – Superman is the edgy loner and Batman is eager to gain his trust. This works astonishingly well, and as an aside, it also helps Superman's secret identity be believable. The bumbling nerve shockingly absent from Superman: The Animated Series is used here – I've argued this before and many have disagreed with me, but this IS how Clark Kent should be. Both Clark and Superman are looking sharp here – George Newburn is back voicing The Man of Tomorrow and you can tell he's having fun with it, especially as he's mocks Batman when he takes a peek through his mask to deduce his secret identity. The episode here is a two part story and features plenty of Batman and Superman villains and is easily the best team up in the entire show. Part One is particular is the most memorable episode of the show, as Alan Burnett actually scripts this one and it's full of bad ass Superman moments. Part Two falters slightly when it basically becomes Batman Vs Superman but this version of Lex Luthor is pretty cool too.

Unfortunately, after the opening two part story, it become clear that the show was simply a commercial to milk the toy line again. Flash, Green Arrow, Hawkman and Green Lantern all guest star and none of the episodes are remotely memorable beyond some pretty sweet designs. None of them have any chemistry with this version of Batman, who has suddenly become his dull pre-season four self again. There's a few none guest starring appearances (couldn't go more than 4 episodes without a pointless Joker episode, could we?) the best of which is The End Of The Batman, which is more memorable because it's really frustrating – there's a good episode in there somewhere, there's just too many illogical moments for it to be considered great.

All of the team up episodes seem exactly the same – Batman teams up with one villain to fight one of their villains – lather, rinse, repeat. I'd just about lost interest by the time the two part finale came about. There was no Wonder Woman appearance here - apparently there exists an embargo which prevents her from guest starring – how true that is I don't know (or care!) but I would've liked to see an appearance from Zatanna but girls don't sell toys.


http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br2.jpg

As said earlier, the finale was a two part story which saw the entire League team up. Hugo Strange makes his final appearance in the show as The Joining returns. I'm still not sure why they didn't just call it Brainiac and be done with it! Again, when the League ended up losing their powers to robotic versions of themselves, I found myself wondering when they would get around to making toy versions of the robots rather than wondering how the characters were planning to overcome this threat.

There was nothing spectacular about the episode – to say they'd spent the last season building towards the formation of the full fledged Justice League, the episode didn't feel like anything remotely special – the main problem with this episode is that it feels just like any other episode. There's no massive epic JL battle or such and Batman doesn't get his character defining moment (there's nothing even remotely resembling Farewell Spider-Man here) – they stop the threat and the show just ends. I have to admit, by the time the show finished, I was more excited in seeing the new Spectacular Spider-Man show that started the same day. I remember thinking that two episodes into that show, they'd mastered Spidey like The Batman never, ever managed to do with it's lead character.

So that was that. It's unfair to call The Batman a terrible show, because season four was outstanding – there's not a bad episode in there and the majority of them are 4* is not higher. It's clear that the show was simply there for merchandising opportunities, which is the case with most animated shows, but The Batman seemed like that was it's sole purpose – never have I seen such a demographic grabbing, merchandise floundering showpiece on television. The show got a lot more wrong than it did right and truth be told, was often painful to watch as both a fan of Batman and well, a (usually) intelligent viewer. The show was always pleasing to look at and was well put together from a production standpoint – the animation was never anything less than superlative and the storyboarding and staging were outstanding most of the time. It's harder to watch now of course, as it's replacement, The Spectacular Spider-Man, easily exceeds every aspect of this show. When I see exceeds, I mean “utterly destroys in comparison”.


http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/thebatman/episodes/44strangenewworld/29.jpg

The Batman is best viewed on an episode by episode basis. Wildly inconsistent, it's difficult to defend the show from it's legion of detractors, as you've probably noticed from the previous few posts. It was never going to be an easy job following Batman: The Animated Series, and in that respect well... The Batman failed. Miserably.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

My mom used to love The Batman series, better then Batman: The Animated Series . She liked stories and character designs.
Something about square designs of the character jaw lines on their faces particularly males in Batman: The Animated Series did not appeal to her.
Batman: The Animated Series had it's fault in stories also, but most of them were good or better written and at least consistant...
Although Nightwing and Robin were looking just fine...:shrug: to me. The stories Paul Dini did were some of my favorites. The Batman had poor writing in some of the episodes and the characters were drawn on the skinny/muscular side.. I think season 4 when Robin joined in was my favorite...:anime:

Again, when you have differnent writers do different episode..you get different ideas tossed in there. Sometimes I wish for WB just to stick with 1 or 2 good writers. :(

[Wonderwall]

Yea I see we're on the same page again( great minds and what not:p ) The opening two parter was awesome, got me very pumped for the rest of the season...and then by the end I was just, sweet new Spider Man coming up next!

It was such a disappointment that it ended like this, I went from being a boneheaded detractor( The Crapman, remember those awful days:sweat:) to more educated and curious, to fan, and then back to detractor but for the right reasons this time. I mean by the end they were fighting Puddies from Power Rangers, complete with hitting them in the chest weakness.

BTW because I saw two other people mention it in this thread, Arkham Asylum is awesome!

[adoptedBatpuppy]

It hit me hard when Terry was killed by DeeDee and Batman had no idea how important Terry was going to be to him. I wanted to cry. :crying: So happy it was all reset at the end. :)

As for the inconsistency with BB, Old Bruce probably initially thought Terry was just a punk who stole his suit (Bruce never saw Terry's face or heard his real voice or name in Once and Future). The fact that Bruce already had an idea that he was eventually going to hand over the mask to someone new may have been the reason he was more open to Terry being the new Batman even after what happened to Tim. I always thought it was a little too quick the way that Bruce let Terry be Batman but maybe Bruce put two and two together and just let fate happen. It's all retcon, I know, but it's not beyond possibility.

Up next: The Cadmus arc, Amanda Waller, and Epilogue!

Great stuff there...I agree with you on that possibility. Epilogue was one of my favorite episodes on JLU. I loved how Terry's character was fully developed until the end and I have no probem with him being Bruce's son. Bruce finally has a resolution and can die peacefully, knowing that Gotham, Justice League and the World has a protector! :D

[Ethereal]

I admit to missing the seduction scene too, because it shows a side to Harley that she'd too whatever it took to get on top - including starting her training with Arkham's most vicious pyscho.

I myself read the "Mad Love" comic book about 12 years before I saw the TNBA episode, and not liking the episode nearly as much as the comic definitely has nothing to do with "knowing what was going to happen". If that were the determining factor in the appreciation of a work of art, the Royal Shakespeare Company would have a huge problem on their hands. ;)

The comic book didn't have to worry about PACING for one thing, whereas the episode had to become a whirlwind in order to tell the story in under 22 minutes.

Stu is absolutely right about the seduction scene - I think it's absolutely vital along with the rest of the flashback to pre-Arkham Harley, to enforce the fact that this woman simply WASN'T meant to be "Doctor" Quinzelle in the first place, Joker or no Joker. She was ALWAYS a "clown girl" at heart, and becoming a psychologist was but a "crazy antic".

It has to be pointed out here that Paul Dini - oops, I mean Batman - makes a BLUNDERING error in referring to Harleen Quinzelle as a "clinical PSYCHIATRIST" as opposed to a clinical PSYCHOLOGIST in Harlequinade. Simply put, a psychiatrist has to be a *MEDICAL* DOCTOR first and foremost, whereas a psychologist specialises SOLELY in the human mind and in human behaviour.
The show's 'creative staff' never DID seem to understand the difference between the two, and this is made glaringly apparent in other episodes such as the Two Face 2 parter and Second Chance. Harvey Dent's therapist, Dr. Crest, is identified as a "psychologist" in Two-Face Part One on her office door, and yet she reappears in the capacity of a medical doctor with the surgeons who attempt to remove Dent's PHYSICAL scars in Second Chance.

Psychology and Psychiatry simply weren't Timm & Co's strong suit.

In the TNBA episode Double Talk, Dr. Joan Leland at Arkham declares that the identify of Scarface has been effectively "suppressed" in Arnold Wesker, even though "suppression" is NEVER an answer in Therapy and is in fact specifically one of the psychological mechanisms that Psychotherapy was initially designed to CIRCUMVENT. :p What Leland released was a volcano waiting to erupt.

The general goal when working with people like Wesker and Harvey Dent is to "integrate" the identities that have FRAGMENTED the patient's psyche, not for one identity to pin down another.

A blooper that jumped out to me as particularly hilarious when watching Read My Lips again recently was the oh-so-great detective Batman referring to Arnold Wesker's mental condition as "Multiple Personality Syndrome Disorder". It's like saying that Catwoman is a "cat thief burglar" or that Matt Hagen was a "thespian actor". :D

[Ethereal]

Batman: The Animated Series had it's fault in stories also, but most of them were good or better written and at least consistant... The Batman had poor writing in some of the episodes and the characters were drawn on the skinny/muscular side..


I don't see Consistency as one of B:TAS' fortes. Must elaborate on that sometime. Used to be a huge fan of the show as a young boy, but I ascribe most of that show's success to factors such as Mood and Ambience, aided and abeted by the orchestral scoring. I think it just "felt right" at the time, following the success of the Tim Burton films.

As far as character drawings go, AdamYJ spoke on my behalf in another thread when he said:

"However, I'm not crazy about the Timm style of art. Since STAS, it always results in heroes with huge shoulders and women with tiny, pinched in waists."


Again, when you have differnent writers do different episode..you get different ideas tossed in there. Sometimes I wish for WB just to stick with 1 or 2 good writers. :(

Or you need ONE really, really good STORY EDITOR who is constantly on the ball. :)

[Stu]

With the DCUA now ended (thanks Register), I knew it would only be a matter of time before we saw Batman animated again, I was simply now weary as to what to expect when we did finally see him on the small screen again. I predicted that it would be in some form of direct to DVD feature, as Marvel/Lions Gate had enormous success with their DTDVD (especially The Ultimate Avengers movies). In a rather cool fanboy moment, I actually personally announced that these long rumored DTVs were appearing after I conducted an interview with Stan Berkowitz, who informed The World's Finest readers that he was penning an adaptation of Darwyn Cooke's The New Frontier graphic novel. What was less cool was emailing pretty much every comic/animation news site on the web and asking them to remove the news as DC themselves had a big panel to announce the release of Superman: Doomsday planned, which I had pretty much ruined.

Erm, whoopsies.

I was immediately more excited for The New Frontier than Doomsday (The Death and Return of Superman storyline, I'm sorry, but it's just complete BS from start to finish) and I had the knowledge that Berkowitz was penning TNF and I've been a fan of his for many years. Plus, I'd never read the book it was based on so it wasn't retreading things I had already seen (done far better in the earlier animated shows, on every single count just about, as it turns out). Plus, The New Frontier had something else Doomsday wasn't going to have – Batman.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br4.jpg

I was initially skeptic that someone else would be playing the role other than Kevin Conroy (and so were you, admit it!). I had never heard of Jeremy Sisto (and to this day, couldn't tell you anything else he'd be in). I attempted to avoid the press for the film and bought the DVD and decided to try and review it impartially, based on it's own merits rather than compare it to previous incarnations. Finally, the film came around, and I still think it's one of the better DC Universe movies (behind only Green Lantern: First Flight). It has the same problem every last one of the recent DTVs has, in that it's far too short. With the money they must make from these things, I think it's time the run time was extended, if only for a few minutes.

The story takes place in the 1950's America, in which superhero vigilante's have been outlawed and Batman is now a fugitive due to the Goverment's paranoia. The main character is Hal Jordan, as the film explains his origin from Pacifist Vietnam Fighter Pilot to to Astronaut to protector of Sector 2814. Next in pecking order is The Martian Manhunter, again, as the film details his arrival from Mars to Earth and his investigation into the upcoming threat as Detective John Jones, known only as The Centre. The main point of the book, according to author Cooke, was to establish a time line for the silver age and give homage to the look of the comic books from his youth. The designs from both the book and the film are all based on the old school appearances, mostly from the 50's (which the film is set in – surprisingly, WBA commissioned a period piece.)

Visually, the film is absolutely stunning. Going through each of the characters, if you A – B them, TNF models are far superior than those found in Justice League Unlimited, Superman being the best of them (how bad ass is the black and red S on his chest? I bet it's ridiculously easier to animate too).

Batman himself is initially based on the early Bob Kane design – as in, Detective Comics #27 (yup, I know the exact issue in which Batman first appeared. Without looking it up on Wikipedia – admit it. You are impressed!) He plays a small, un-vital part in the film, but is still a joy to watch. The initial design is spectacular. It's so very Batman – dark, creepy and mysterious. There's some stuff in there I'm not used to – the Bat emblem on his chest has no ears, the gloves are really short but there's no denying the mystique of the design. The mask is by far the coolest Batman mask we've ever had on the small screen. I love big eared Batman!

His initial appearance suffers from an underwhelming fight sequence – I'm not sure who boarded it but it was a step down from the crew's recent smack downs – which director Dave Bullock does far better than most (check out The Spectacular Spider-Man episode Natural Selection for evidence.) The best part of the sequence is the gorgeous pan as Batman frees the young boy the cult has kidnapped.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br3.jpg

I presume Berkowitz realised he was but a tiny piece in the puzzle by giving him the best dialogue in the film. His initial meeting with John Jones is the stuff to which all bad asses should be compared. He even gets the best line in the picture.

“I'm not sure what you are or where you come from, but my instincts tell me you are to be trusted. Make no mistake though, I have a $70 thousand sliver of radioactive meteor to stop the one from Metropolis. With you, all I need is a penny for a book of matches.”

Which brings us to Sisto. When casting the movie, the producers advised they were picking the actors as if the film was made in the 50's and to be honest, it gave us some unusual but oddly brilliant voices – Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern all stand out in the feature – Superman especially (seriously, this version of Supes just kicks ass on ever cylinder.)

It surprised me but I actually really like Sisto in the role. Conroy will always be Batman to me, but after the Rino Romano calamity, I knew I would be less than receptive of anyone else voicing my dear Dark Knight but Sisto adds a mysterious quality to the voice that I really like. I think the picture benefits from Bruce Wayne not appearing (despite his model being shown in the preview on the Doomsday DVD). As previously mentioned, Batman has the best dialogue in the picture which dramatically helped me Sisto but there's very little to fault here.

Batman gets another design later on in the film (and a Robin cameo, in his stupidly dorky original suit which goes against everything The Dark Knight is all about) which I'm less fond of. Cooke explains that his rational behind the actual character's new suit is that somewhere he felt Batman suit shouldn't scare children and thus, he now wears a new 'superhero' costume. I don't think much to it – the black costume is infinitely cooler, and the blue suit looks cheesy – which in fairness, Batman books were at the time.

Batman's combined screen time couldn't have been anymore than 5 or 6 minutes, but I did enjoy most of what I saw. With The Dark Knight theater bound later in the year, it would be foolish to assume a series of cash in wasn't on the cards. I remember a feeling of dread when they eventually did though – Batman was making the trip to the east for an anime DTDVD, which would be split into 6 parts with different writers and animators.

I didn't know if I would like the like the idea when it was first announced, and I'm still not sure what I think of it now.

[Antiyonder]

I have to disagree a tad on you. I'd say the Green Arrow's first full appearance on The Batman was entertaining as we see him accusing Bruce Wayne for the crime of the episode only for the awkwardness of discovering that Bruce Wayne was in earshot the whole time.

[Wonderwall]

While Stan does get credit for writing the screenplay, Batman's dialogue was pretty much lifted from the NF novel, at least the part in J'onn's apartment. I really liked the movie so much that I decided to get the books themselves. After reading those I kind of liked the movie just a bit less than I initially had. I had a similar experience with Mad Love as well.

[klammed]

I have to admit, by the time the show finished, I was more excited in seeing the new Spectacular Spider-Man show that started the same day. I remember thinking that two episodes into that show, they'd mastered Spidey like The Batman never, ever managed to do with it's lead character.

Score! That's what I said earlier on :p

Yessum, and Sisto was a very nice surprise, refreshing from say the voice of... BALE since the movies were coming out at this time as well.

[CyclonatorZ]

Once again, this retrospective proves itself to be balanced with a fair look-over of the much maligned followup to BTAS. Though there's plenty I disagree with (which I'll get to in a second), you've managed to give an overview of the five seasons that captures most of its acknolwedged strong and weak points. I wish more people were willing to be as open-minded as you about the entire subject of "Post DCAU" Batman. :p

But, like I was saying, I can't agree with everything in the retrospective. Perhaps it's because I never watched barely any BTAS before watching The Batman (as it says in my profile, I'm younger than most of the members here), but I never found the show nearly as grating as many people did. And I'm not just talking about Season Four, but Season Two and even some of Season One. In particular, I thought the very first season didn't deserve nearly as much criticism as it got. While some of the episodes were geniune crap (Q&A, the Manbat episode, Topsy Turvy), a lot of the episodes that many people hated sat perfectly fine with me. I'm actually rather a fan of how Catwoman, Firefly and The Ventriloquist are potrayed in the series, and I also prefer its version of Penguin to some of the other versions I have seen (Mystery of the Batwoman's portrayal in particular did nothing for me). Also, I didn't mind the "toyetic apporach" to some of the episodes - I've never understood why the Bat-bot got so much hate just for existing. Besides the fact that I believe Batman has had mecha-suits in other incarnation (though I might be wrong), I don't see why him creating an invention like that to defeat an incredibly powerful opponent is so wrong. He has all sorts of other contraptions and vehicles - why is a Bat-mech any different?

Season Two also sat fairly well with me, starting with the very first episode. While "The Cat, the Bat, and the Very Ugly" was a bit fantastical, I thought the interaction between Catwoman and Batman was great, and the plot also was an early indicator that Penguin was smarter than he appeared. "JTV" was also fine with me - I mean, Joker hijacked the airways in BTAS all the time, so it was only fair that this version of the character got to engage in a bit of Pirate TV as well. Heck, unlike in BTAS, they actually tried to give an explanation for how he was able to! This pattern of differing from many critics of the show continues along with other episodes like "Swamped" (which honestly didn't seem unbelieveable enough to spoil the episode for me) and "Pets" (which I thought was great except for the idiotic racoon). Overall, I thought Season Two was really great, and is the only other one that compared to the awesomeness of season Four

Even season 5 was rather enjoyable to me. Thought it didn't have any real "wow" episodes (except perhaps for the first two parter), I liked the interpretations of all of the Justice League members, especially Flash and Green Arrow. Two more appearances by Black Mask also was a great treat, and more insight into Hugo Strange's character kept the season finale from being as boring to me as it was to others.

So' I guess I'd say I'm rather a fan of the show, although I'm fully aware of some of its flaws (Season Three in particular was as terrible to me as it was to everyone else). Maybe if I had grown up with BTAS I wouldn't be saying this, but since I didn't, I don't really have as negative a perception of it as others have. That's not say that I think its the better of the two shows - on the contrary, BTAS is still the best animated interpretation of Batman ever - but I am saying that I think The Batman is still a fun ride with some truly comparable moments. ;)

[Ethereal]

While some of the episodes were geniune crap (Q&A, the Manbat episode, Topsy Turvy), a lot of the episodes that many people hated sat perfectly fine with me.

I much preferred Q&A to Riddled for example - I think the former was an unabashedly tongue-in-the-cheek but ultimately poignant commentary, whereas the latter wanted so desperately to make the Riddler the most sinister foe on the show yet but made him look like someone trying to emulate a villain from Filmation's He-Man and failing miserably.


I'm actually rather a fan of how Catwoman, Firefly and The Ventriloquist are potrayed in the series, and I also prefer its version of Penguin to some of the other versions I have seen (Mystery of the Batwoman's portrayal in particular did nothing for me).

I really liked their take on the Penguin too, except that the voice actor sounded like he was mimicking Danny De Vito.

The Ventriloquist wasn't sufficiently different from B:TAS at all for me, and Catwoman saying "Meow" got old just the second time, although at least her character was written with *CONSISTENCY* unlike the B:TAS Catwoman.


While "The Cat, the Bat, and the Very Ugly" was a bit fantastical

But no more so than Ra's Al Ghul and Klarion/Etrigan episodes from B:TAS and TNBA.

I have no allegiance or partiality to 'The Batman' over B:TAS, but I thought "The Cat, the Bat and the Very Ugly" actually handled the supernatural infinitely better than Timm & Co. were ever able to in *ANY* of their shows (I think ALL their supernatural/mystical characters and stories bombed big time. Those guys just didn't understand the Fantasy genre. It just becomes *PAINFULLY* evident that they spent their time as kids with action figurines and comics, as opposed to fairy tales and myths. :p)

In "The Cat, the Bat and the Very Ugly", at first you think you're in for an ordinary team-up/heist/double-cross story, and even when the Penguin refers to the Egyptian goddess Bastet helping Ra to harness the sun's power, you as the viewer are as quick to dismiss it and ready to move on as Catwoman is. When the mystical properties of the stolen artifacts are revealed at mid-point in the story, the stakes are raised dramatically in a way that the viewer never expected them to.
I think this episode is INFINITELY better than shall-we-say Avatar from B:TAS, and I think the build-up to what the story is 'really all about' was just brilliant compared to say the revelation of the Shadow Thief's true identity on JLU (an ingenious concept which I think was completely *BUTCHERED* in its execution by the writers/producers/directors, who couldn't quite decide what they were trying to accomplish between themselves).

[Batman]

STU I can't wait to read your thoughts on the incredible job Diedrich Bader has been as Batman in the epic tv series Batman: The Brave and the Bold.

I didn't think TPTB could succeed in making this tv series work after the horrible job done on The Batman (season 1-3). But B:B&B has managed to surpass my expectations with classic and style. Not only do we get to see Classic lighter Batman (a nice tribute to the 60's version with Adam West) But this Caped Crusader still has an edge to him in his character that still gives him the Dark brooding Dark Knight persona . I also like how we get to see a whole rang of the lesser known DCU Heroes team up with Batman and get the moment in the spotlight .

This series has made me a fan of Aquaman (Outrageous!) :D

[Stu]

With the success of Batman Begins and hype at an all time high for it's sequel The Dark Knight, WBA was quick to cash in on the same, and announced that it was releasing a direct to DVD feature to take place between the films. When the announced it wasn't vital viewing for The Dark Knight, I pretty much took that as it casually related to the upcoming movie. I remember my brother refusing to watch it, lest there be spoilers for TDK in there (we were both spoilerphobes for this movie – I remember walking in realising I knew bugger all about the story and for some reason, I had the belief Harvey Dent had a bit part to set up Two-Face for Batman 3.)

I wasn't that fussed about this DVD – I picked it up on a whim as something to watch. When the DVD arrived in the post, I remember coming home and instead of rushing to watch it, I had a go on the PS3 first (Spider-Man 3 if I remember correctly. Yes, I like the game. And the movie – move on with your life, IGN.)

As each segment is completely different from the other, it seems only fair to judge them as single entities, because as a film, it's a bit of a mess – there's no real theme to it beyond Batman himself, despite a few nods to the other stories, so rating them individually is the way to go.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br5.jpg

Have I Got A Story For You is a complete waste of time. I'm not sure what the hell they were trying to do here but it feature horrendous 'hip' dialogue and some of the most messed up versions of Batman you've ever seen. The kids are simply advising what they imagine Batman to be, only it's so far removed from Batman you wonder what the bloody point was. It doesn't help that this segment is essentially a replica of Legends Of The Dark Knight, only that was great and this is beyond terrible. As a humorous coincidence, the aforementioned episode is feature as a extra on the 2nd disc of this DVD, presumably as a reminder of what this story could've been, were it any good. I actually watched this one twice just to see if it was that awful, and yes, it was. This gets skipped on the rare occasion Gotham Knight finds itself in my DVD player.

Crossfire isn't that much better – for a segment that is less than 10 minutes in length, it moves far too slowly, and we are given little reason to care about either of the cops that are the stars of the segment. The main bulk of the story is the cops are trying to stop a gang war and Batman arrives and stops all the baddies. There's some BS Batman stuff in there, like him standing in fire for what seems like forever (hardly in line with what we saw of the character and Nolan's attempt to ground Batman in reality in the film this thing's supposed to be based off.) Batman's model's not really much to look at other. That's 0 for 2 so far.

Field Test takes a logical idea – a bullet reflective bat suit. Again, there's not much to this (at this point of watching, the segment idea seemed ill founded) but there's more to it than the previous two. The main jarring circumstance here is that Bruce Wayne looks all of 12 years old. Unlike the previous segments, this is loosely based on his Batman Begins costume, rather than his comic book suit. There's a bit more with the gang war mentioned here – including Batman realising there's little he can do to stop the leaders other than putting the fear of God into them.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br6.jpg

In Darkness Dwells finally picks up the feature, with Batman hunting down The Scarecrow (who is nothing like the fantastic version we got in Batman Begins, despite this being penned by one of the writers of the film). Introducing Killer Croc in this world was a peculiar choice, but then – this is a really, really peculiar film. I was disappointed in their confrontation – it seemed to be over before it began.

As a continuation of Begins, the film is terrible – as it's own entity, it fairs better. Batman's costume this time around, is a mixture of his movie and comic book Armour, and looks OK. Nothing great, nothing terrible, much this story itself.

Things finally get great as Working Through Pain begins, as we see a truly exhausted and wounded Batman attempt to return to the cave – the model is all sorts of messed up here and Batman clearly looks as if he's in great pain. The story takes us back to his training about how to deal with this pain as he travels the world looking for ways to deal with his pain. His teacher tries to teach him that physical pain can be overcome but the pain he carries inside him needs a different outlet – which Bruce of course puts to great use by “thrashing criminals with his bare hands” to quote. I really like this segment, because I find pre-Batman Bruce Wayne fascinating – we even get a look at Bruce's screwed up personality when he delays his much needed medical attention as he learns the sewers are being used for gun running.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br7.jpg

This is more the Batman I know and love – the previous segments seem more of a failed experiment than anything else. Again, it's short, but there's plenty to like here – I am unsure of the directors name but the he gets the points across very well – Batman is constantly in pain whenever he's on screen, whereas Bruce is forever calm, looking for the means to deal with his pain. He doesn't flinch when he is smacked in the face by the foreign thugs. Top marks here – worth buying the DVD for.

Things get better as Alan Burnett finally gets a crack at his adult Dark Knight in Deadshot, which sees the mob place a bounty on Jim Gordon's head and Batman having to stop the assassin. Comic book villian Deadshot, curiously absent from any previous Batman shows but having a few starring roles in Justice League finally faces The Dark Knight one on one and the results are amazing.

Visually, this one is the best yet. Batman is adorned in his comic book costume but the highlight here is Gotham itself – the Japanese clearly spend more money on animation than Americans and Gotham City shows it – it's beautifully filthy – this is a city that needs Batman. Deadshot himself is great – a perfect mix of cool and arrogance made him the perfect foil for Batman. He gets some good lines in at the expense of Gotham's Guardian – how many people do you know that MOCK Batman?

“Congratulations Batman, you're the first person to try avoid my bullet by running into it!”

Batman himself gets the best line of the feature, as he dismantles Deadshot's gun. “Shoot your mouth off now, Deadshot!”

Whereas Working Through Pain examined Bruce Wayne's head, this is just pure adrenalin action, blanketed in gorgeous animation. These final two defiantly make the film worth buying – the first two are a waste of time and the middle section isn't anything to write online about (...wait!).

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br8.jpg

That's the film as the sum of it's parts – it got a lot wrong, some good things right but it's worth noting that I'm not a fan of anime – I find it to distracting and struggle to get into the story but I admit to not having seen much anime at all. The writing is inconsistent and surprisingly, some of the casting is weak – the actors playing Gordon and Alfred don't have much going for them – especially bad when they are inevitably going to be compared to Micheal Caine and Gary Oldman. Oh yes, the casting. Christian Bale was originally planned to voice Batman this time around, but when the scheduling proved that impossible, the producers did what seems like the most logical thing to do – go back to Kevin Conroy – the one consistent thing about the film. When I say consistent, I mean brilliant. In fact, it's time I coined a new phrase that is above brilliant – Conroyism. The man is the voice of Batman – there is really nothing more to discuss. Time and time again, he has proven perfect.

After this came The Dark Knight, which reestablished Batman as a pop culture icon and officially made him the coolest superhero ever. The fact it's indisputably the great superhero/comic book film of all time and was nothing short of thrilling and thus performing far better than anyone ever, ever dared dream, I knew it was only a matter of time before an animated spin off came about. I was hoping for an adult Batman cartoon, set in a similar tone to the movie, alas, I knew the toy companies were back in charge when I heard that the next show was to be a silver age family friendly team up show. Everything I read about the show proved to be the same demographic grabbing bollocks I'd endured with The Batman, to the point where I simply stopped reading news about the show.

Strangely enough, when Toon Zone News got a sneak peak at the show, I was the first in line to see it.

[Stu]

We learned that Batman: The Brave And The Bold would feature Batman teaming up with various DC heroes and be lighter in tone than any of the previous shows. It seemed a homage to the old silver age version of the character more than the recent Batman offerings.

Legion of Superheroes producer James Tucker was to run the show – his fondness for the old school comic books is quite clear here. In a surprising twist, Batman is adorned in his old school blue and gray costume. I actually really like this costume, so there were no complaints here. The show is bright and vivid and the characters are outlined in a a thick black – there is something about this that makes the show pop. Batman himself is my favorite design – the nose is a little weird but it does it's job.

I wasn't so sure on the idea of team ups ever episode, again, it seemed more like an idea to sell toys of more heroes than create an entertaining episode, but when I sat down and watched the show... I didn't know what the hell of make of it. It wasn't bad by any means (it certainly wasn't a The Bat In The Belfry horror) but it was no On Leather Wings either. The fact they were focusing on some of the lesser known heroes was an interesting idea – there's apparently some embargo going on to prevent Superman and Wonder Woman from appearing, but that's DC Comics for you. They've yet to realise that these 'embargos' only hurt thier characters, but from what I've seen from DC in recent years, the people in charge are complete fools, so there you have it.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br9.jpg

The episode in question saw Batman team up with The Blue Beetle to stop Kanjar Ro, a Green Lantern villain. In space. I did not approve – I think Batman in space is a silly idea. It was a good but not great story and the humour didn't grab me too well, too often I was sniggering rather than laughing out loud – after that I deduced the show was too juvenile for my tastes and didn't bother with it.

I learned I didn't have to do reviews for WF either so I was under no obligation to watch the show. (Stop sniggering, MAA fans. At one point, I did several reviews a week while working as webmaster of MAA and Bird Boy's faithful sidekick at WF. I was a hard grafting webmaster in my younger days, believe it or not. And no, I'm nowhere near finished doing Iron Man: Armored Adventures yet, but this very thread should give you a reasoning as to why. That, I think that show is duller than... quite possibly anything I've ever imagined. )

When the show finally came here to the UK, I managed to catch a few more episodes and actually found myself enjoying it a lot more. I think I wrote the show off too early – it's still not something I go out of my watch to watch like I do for The Spectacular Spider-Man, Wolverine And The X-Men but I do enjoy it a hell of lot more than the poor Iron Man: Armored Adventures. When a proper box season is released, then I'll have no problem parting ways with my coin for the thing.

Out of the episodes I've seen so far, my favorite is Legends Of The Dark Mite in which Batmite arrives and inevitably causes chaos by trying to make Batman into the greatest hero of all times. There's several nods to various different variations of Batman, both in his comic book and animated form - there's an especially cool homage to the old Batman: The Animated Series opening title and a cameo from Bruce Timm, dressed as The Joker who disapproves of the show's direction. I liked Batmites attempts to improve his costume too.

As with any new Batman show/movie, the inevitable conundrum of who will play Batman came up – Didier Bacher is cast this time around, and no, he's not Kevin Conroy but he's excellent in the role. He has the perfect deadpan delivery needed for the character, as he is constantly playing straight man to guest star. This version of Batman doesn't have much use for mystique and such – Bacher hams it up too much for anyone to be scared, which goes in line with the tone the show has established.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br10.jpg

Looking through the episodes I've seen (which admittedly isn't a great deal) I found myself deeply enjoying Legends Of The Dark Mite! and Mayhem Of The Music Meister! most. MOTMM! Sees Neil Patrick Harris guest star as The Music Meister, an original villain who can hypnotize people as he sings – it's a musical episode and it's utterly fantastic from start to finish. The opening number is the best – the episode is fun from start to finish.

Batman himself doesn't sing but Black Canary carries most of the episode on the heroes side of things and is truly an exceptional signer - I believe the actress playing her has a few albums out -she's that good at what she does. Harris himself is the star of the show - he is utterly brillant as The Music Meister. I have been a fan of his voice work since his role as the title character in the underrated Spider-Man: The New Animated Series. I also thought he was one of the highlights of the casting for The New Frontier DVD. I am greatly looking forward to hearing his turn as Nightwing in The Red Hood DVD later in the year.

There's not been a great deal of appearances from Batman villains in the show – they mainly deal with the one of the guest spots villains so the Arkham lot are mainly cameos. The Joker has made an appearance in Game Over For Owl Man! In which Batman has to team up with Clown Prince Of Crime to stop an evil version of Batman who's framing Batman for his crimes. The episode sees various versions of Batman turn up to stop the crooks in the end – it's a pretty cool two party story. From what I've seen Two-Face and The Scarecrow have appeared in the opening prologue to some of the episodes, based upon the old school appearances – there's no Batman Begins/The Dark Knight influence to their designs.

There's no arc to the show's stories – each episode is a standalone story and there's not a lot of origin explanations either – we've yet to see Bruce Wayne appear in the show, and when Batman is unmasked, his face is covered in shadow – the producers don't seem to have any intention of revealing Wayne yet.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br11.jpg

From the episodes I've not seen, it appears as though Robin has been in the show, but I can't seem to find any mention or appearance of Alfred or Jim Gordon. As previously mentioned, Superman isn't allowed to appear – some BS from DC is preventing him from appearing, which is a hindrance but there's plenty of guest stars to go around I suppose.

I am probably the wrong person to be reviewing the show based on how little I've seen it, but based on what I have seen, it's not going to top Batman: The Animated Series for me. It's still the best Batman cartoon to date and I don't envision the current regime at DC or WBA ever greenlighting a show that will take it's crown from it – it looks like Marvel may be set to do that if they can convince Disney to order more episode of it's Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon.

In summary? I like most of what I've seen.

[Antiyonder]

I wasn't so sure on the idea of team ups ever episode, again, it seemed more like an idea to sell toys of more heroes than create an entertaining episode, but when I sat down and watched the show... I didn't know what the hell of make of it. It wasn't bad by any means (it certainly wasn't a The Bat In The Belfry horror) but it was no On Leather Wings either. The fact they were focusing on some of the lesser known heroes was an interesting idea – there's apparently some embargo going on to prevent Superman and Wonder Woman from appearing, but that's DC Comics for you. They've yet to realise that these 'embargos' only hurt thier characters, but from what I've seen from DC in recent years, the people in charge are complete fools, so there you have it.


From the episodes I've not seen, it appears as though Robin has been in the show, but I can't seem to find any mention or appearance of Alfred or Jim Gordon. As previously mentioned, Superman isn't allowed to appear – some BS from DC is preventing him from appearing, which is a hindrance but there's plenty of guest stars to go around I suppose.

Given that WW hasn't had her own show since the 70s, I certainly agree that the embargo on her is hurting her popularity, but Superman has constantly had his own shows/movies/cartoons and more or less has Smallville.

Atom, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Blue Beetle, Huntress and Black Canary on the other hand have little or no series of their own, and thus benefit more from the show than Supes.

[young101]

You spelled someones name wrong...

[Stu]

You spelled someones name wrong...

Get used to it. Spelling/grammar/mastering the English language will never be one of my strong points. :p

[ShadowStar]

MOTMM! Sees Neil Patrick Harris guest star as The Music Meister, an original villain who can hypnotize people as he sings – it's a musical episode and it's utterly fantastic from start to finish. The opening number is the best – the episode is fun from start to finish.


Thank you! It's great to hear that someone else actually agrees with me on the matter of "I'm the Music Meister" being the episode's best song. Most fans seem to prefer "Drives Us Bats". That episode is my favourite of the season. I did like "Legends of the Dark Mite!", but I wasn't entirely sold on it. It was weird how Batman and Bat-Mite parted ways only for the latter to decide to return in disguise to spy on the former in the Bat-Cave. It was also weird how the 'Bat-Mite as Batman' scene went from Bat-Mite fighting Gorilla Grodd to fighting all the Batman rogues for no apparent reason.

Bane, Catwoman and the Terrible Trio have appeared in some episodes, just in case you missed those ones. And there is a story arc involving Equinox which starts in the teaser for "Mystery in Space!" and continues in 2 episodes near the end of the season. Check out "Dawn of the Deadman!", "Return of the Fearsome Fangs" and "When OMAC Attacks!". I'm guessing you've also seen "Deep Cover for Batman!" and "Trials of the Demon"!

I'm surprised that you loathe Iron Man: Armoured Adventures. It's not brilliant, but I don't think any episodes are disasters. I like it for what it is.

[klammed]

Get used to it. Spelling/grammar/mastering the English language will never be one of my strong points. :p

I think he meant Diedrich Bader, unless you're set on misspelling that constantly or something. And I must say, this kinda ups over Wolverine and the X-men for me. There's something about Wolverine's voice in that one that doesn't sit right with me in that series.

This series had me totally sold the moment I heard Green Arrow going, 'I am Vengeance, I am the Night, I am Batman! and these are my HAMMERS OF JUSTICE'. Especially since I didn't think I would enjoy something so obviously cheesy after hating that 'kid friendliness' of The Batman and the awful opening theme that came with it in the later seasons.

[Wonderwall]

Brave and the Bold was such a nice surprise when I first saw it. I had no idea what to make of it when I saw the promotion for it. It's a great reminder that this version of Batman can be damn entertaining and pretty cool in it's own wacky way. For me I enjoy it far more than WATXM and second to SSM, hopefully a box set comes out soon as Canada seems to be dragging its knuckles on airing new episodes.

[Shredhead]

I'm not really a fan of Batman Brave and the Bold I know show isn't The Batman and isn't a giant insult to your intelligents and the show is made with love and care for the character but I cant like it. I'm not a fan of this version of Batman he is too straightman for my taste and since I'm a Marvel fan and not really a big DC fan. I really only care about Batman and his roster of characters and since this is Batman's guide to the obscured sections of the DCU all the fanwank just doesn't work on me. I really dont like the Silverage I dont have a favorite D-List villain and I dont jump up and down like a monkey when someone does a refrance to Batman GL one punch joke. So this show just isn't for me.

Oh and Stu your not alone in loveing Wolverine and the X-Men its to me by far the best action cartoon to come out in years.

[KillerMoth]

I really dont like the Silverage I dont have a favorite D-List villain and I dont jump up and down like a monkey when someone does a refrance to Batman GL one punch joke. So this show just isn't for me.

Tasteful generalisation there.

Nice update Stu, though I'm disappointed you didn't hunt down and watch the remaining episodes to do a complete and fair review. To have written so much and come so far it seems a little bit of a cop-out to me to simply judge the show based on seeing a handful of episodes.

[Shredhead]

Tasteful generalisation there.

Alright I was a little harsh with that line and I'm sorry to those it offended. Although I cant lie to me thats what the show is a giant spot the refrance for the hardcore fans. I just dont think the show has enough substance to get by on its own merits.

[KillerMoth]

Alright I was a little harsh with that line and I'm sorry to those it offended. Although I cant lie to me thats what the show is a giant spot the refrance for the hardcore fans. I just dont think the show has enough substance to get by on its own merits.
To you, there such a thing as subjectivity and personal opinion. Besides, this is a classic cartoon, since when does a cartoon HAVE to have a load of substance to be passable? I don't remember Looney Tunes or Fairly Odd Parents of Kim Possible or even the classic Fleischer Superman cartoon having all that much substance, but they were all great still.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but given that this cartoon has tackled loads of death, the themes of family, legacy, friendship and forgivness I'd say it certainly has loads of substance. Sure it may be done in a hammy way, but that's the glory of it, it's a load of ham with a side order of cheese and corn.

[young101]

Brave and the bold isn't my cup of tea either. Episodes I've mostly enjoyed were the two parter first season finale (who doesn't like multiverse episodes) and obviously the batmite episode and i kinda enjoyed the music mesiter episode. I surprisingly liked the one with captain marvel (the most recent one), but besides those I can't say I've enjoyed the show as much as btas, jlu or spectacular spiderman. I've probably watched only a few more episodes than stu to be honest.

And I do agree. Renew spec spiderman already!

[Stu]

Thank you! It's great to hear that someone else actually agrees with me on the matter of "I'm the Music Meister" being the episode's best song.

I love "I'm the Music Meister", I thought it was a great way to introduce the villain, especially with him controlling the other villains and heroes. And you have to give it to NPH - the man can sing.


Bane, Catwoman and the Terrible Trio have appeared in some episodes, just in case you missed those ones. And there is a story arc involving Equinox which starts in the teaser for "Mystery in Space!" and continues in 2 episodes near the end of the season. Check out "Dawn of the Deadman!", "Return of the Fearsome Fangs" :chowder:

I think I've seen Catwoman images from the show, but I don't recall seeing Bane. Which episode was he in? He seems very modern to appear in the show.


I'm surprised that you loathe Iron Man: Armoured Adventures. It's not brilliant, but I don't think any episodes are disasters. I like it for what it is.

I just can't get into it. I've yet to find a single redeeming feature about it - it's far too demographic grabbing for my liking, and it's not the Iron Man I know a love, it's just some annoying kid in his armour. That show, simply put, should've been a lot, lot better. Arsenal is reviewing it for MAA, because there's only so many times you can say "this episode is tedious" without wondering why you're bothering to review it at all. :p


Nice update Stu, though I'm disappointed you didn't hunt down and watch the remaining episodes to do a complete and fair review. To have written so much and come so far it seems a little bit of a cop-out to me to simply judge the show based on seeing a handful of episodes.

That's a fair cristism. I did try and watch more episodes on TV while I was writing this, but I kept getting episodes I'd already seen before. I managed to catch a wicked team up with Sherlock Holmes though, I enjoyed watching fiction's too most famous detectives banter back and forth.

Bring on the season set, I say!

[Stu]

Even with his weekly team ups on TV, Batman was still chosen for another team up DVD, with Superman, his best partner. There was a new Superman/Batman comic book revamped several years ago by the then red hot creative team of Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness, who announced that the book would finally see the conclusion to the President Luthor arc that had been running through the Superman books for a few years.

I remember thinking the book was quite cool at the time, but looking back through it, it's nowhere near as strong as Loeb's previous work on either Batman or Superman. Loeb and Tim Sale crafted Batman's two finest comic book stories and got the Superman book out of a creative slump that had been ongoing for years. McGuiness was receiving critical acclaim for his 'roided versions artwork and became one of my personal favourites – his work just pops off the page, even though I personally don't like seeing Batman and Superman that buff. I'm not a fan of DC's colouring, but this book nearly leaped off the page – it was that colourful. No wonder DC Direct made dozens of action figures based on these designs.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br12.jpg

The film seems to be out, like, minutes after it was announced (I must've missed just about every press release for hype). The thing that made it a must buy for me was the news that DCU veterans Kevin Conroy, Tim Daly and Clancy Brown would be returning to roles they made famous for the picture.

I was a bit surprised to see Daly return but to me, he has better chemistry with Conroy so it works for me. They are on fine form here – they sound better together than they ever have, even if the story itself isn't a patch on their World's Finest 3 parter from Superman: The Animated Series.

Ah yes, the story. With an economic depression sweeping the world, Lex Luthor, known for getting things down is elected as President of The United States and begins to turn things around. He's still distrusting of Superman and uses a meteorite from Krypton to turn the public against Superman, framing him for the murder of Metallo and tricking the people of Earth into believing that the Krptonite has a psychological effect on him, as well as a physical. A billion dollar bounty later, we have our main premises.

That's about it story wise – the movie falls into the same pitfall of the comic – there's not really a lot to it, Batman and Superman's solution to the bounty placed on them is to punch their way through everything.

It's great seeing McGuiness' influence on the models though – even lame comic book villains like Copperhead look really, really cool in the movie. It also gives us the coolest Bane design I've ever seen, for all the 6 seconds he's on screen. I am looking forward to seeing The World's Finest screen gallery of this feature, because everytime I watch it I see another villain I didn't notice last time.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br13.jpg

You've probably noticed I've not touched much on Batman in this post yet – there's not really a lot to say about him. This is very much Luthor's movie, with Superman playing second string and Batman a distant third. It feels like a movie in which Batman is a guest star rather than one of the headliners. They got most of what is here right though (Conroyism kicks in again) and the design, and I've probably told you several times is really, really sweet.

There's no real character arc for him – most of the good stuff comes from the chemistry/banter between them, the best one being their conversation about the villain Magpie.

“Clark... what the hell's a good villain?”

I think we could've had a great story about Superman's ego in here as Luthor becomes President, but apparently there was too much punching to be done. Sadly the fight scenes, while very good, aren't at the level of some of their previous efforts – the smackdowns from Superman: Doomsday and Justice League Unlimited are far greater than Public Enemies. One gets the impression we wouldn't be saying this if Joquam Dos Santos, Dave Bullock or Dan Riba were directing the feature.

As with the book, there's a lot of …. really silly stuff in here. Toyman is really irritating, although he does have some great scenes with Powergirl, and the giant Superbat robot... that's just bad fan fiction stuff. We also see Luthor, having spent the entire film being a bad ass President who looks astonishingly like Kurt Angle suddenly turn into his Superfriends persona with that silly, silly green power suit. I suppose it gives Superman and Luthor their physical encounter which was needed but just look at it. It looks like a giant bloody toy. I did actually like the rest of the fight scene though, as Luthor unleashes years of frustration out on the Man of Tomorrow and even gets some nice nods to Superman: The Movie in there.

“You're supposed to be our saviour?? I think it's time you died for our sins!”

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br14.jpg

I don't mean to sound like I'm ragging on it, as it's a perfectly enjoyable film but I imagine there's much better Batman/Superman stories to adapt. With the film doing as well as it did and a sequel being green lite straight away. It's rumoured that the sequel is called Turn to The Dark Side, which could feature Darkseid but alas, with nothing confirmed, who the hell knows.

As I said above, there's plenty of great Batman/Superman stories to tell – my personal favorite is “The Search For Kryptonite” in which Batman and Superman travel the world searching for ALL the meteor fragments from his home world. It even prominently features Amanda Waller and has a fantastic, fantastic fight to adapt in Superman vs The All American Boy.

Either way, we'll be seeing plenty of both Batman and Superman in DTVs. No complaints here!

[jondoe297]

To you, there such a thing as subjectivity and personal opinion. Besides, this is a classic cartoon, since when does a cartoon HAVE to have a load of substance to be passable? I don't remember Looney Tunes or Fairly Odd Parents of Kim Possible or even the classic Fleischer Superman cartoon having all that much substance, but they were all great still.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but given that this cartoon has tackled loads of death, the themes of family, legacy, friendship and forgiveness I'd say it certainly has loads of substance. Sure it may be done in a hammy way, but that's the glory of it, it's a load of ham with a side order of cheese and corn.

QFT, Strongly Agree w/ this. Thanks to Batman TB&TB i came to appreciate the History of DC in all of its era and relevance. I was and still am a dc fan since btas to jlu and tb&tb made it stronger because its new and refreshing but still dc. I enjoy the variety and its pretty balanced, they know when to be serious and have fun and be genuinely funny.

If not for the silver age, we won't have the likes of geoff johns and grant morrison, writing modern epic dc stories from crisis after crisis to brightest day inspired by such stories of the silver age that still holds relevance but can be told and used to tell new ones.

Not everything needs to be grim, gritty and dark or utter seriousness.
A little variety and fun never hurt anybody. ;) So long as they treat the stories and characters w/ respect and not as a joke like, imo, in Marvel's SuperHero Squad. :yawn: :mad:

[jondoe297]

Even with his weekly team ups on TV, Batman was still chosen for another team up DVD, with Superman, his best partner. There was a new Superman/Batman comic book revamped several years ago by the then red hot creative team of Jeph Loeb and Ed McGuiness, who announced that the book would finally see the conclusion to the President Luthor arc that had been running through the Superman books for a few years.

I remember thinking the book was quite cool at the time, but looking back through it, it's nowhere near as strong as Loeb's previous work on either Batman or Superman. Loeb and Tim Sale crafted Batman's two finest comic book stories and got the Superman book out of a creative slump that had been ongoing for years. McGuiness was receiving critical acclaim for his 'roided versions artwork and became one of my personal favourites – his work just pops off the page, even though I personally don't like seeing Batman and Superman that buff. I'm not a fan of DC's colouring, but this book nearly leaped off the page – it was that colourful. No wonder DC Direct made dozens of action figures based on these designs.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br12.jpg

The film seems to be out, like, minutes after it was announced (I must've missed just about every press release for hype). The thing that made it a must buy for me was the news that DCU veterans Kevin Conroy, Tim Daly and Clancy Brown would be returning to roles they made famous for the picture.

I was a bit surprised to see Daly return but to me, he has better chemistry with Conroy so it works for me. They are on fine form here – they sound better together than they ever have, even if the story itself isn't a patch on their World's Finest 3 parter from Superman: The Animated Series.

Ah yes, the story. With an economic depression sweeping the world, Lex Luthor, known for getting things down is elected as President of The United States and begins to turn things around. He's still distrusting of Superman and uses a meteorite from Krypton to turn the public against Superman, framing him for the murder of Metallo and tricking the people of Earth into believing that the Krptonite has a psychological effect on him, as well as a physical. A billion dollar bounty later, we have our main premises.

That's about it story wise – the movie falls into the same pitfall of the comic – there's not really a lot to it, Batman and Superman's solution to the bounty placed on them is to punch their way through everything.

It's great seeing McGuiness' influence on the models though – even lame comic book villains like Copperhead look really, really cool in the movie. It also gives us the coolest Bane design I've ever seen, for all the 6 seconds he's on screen. I am looking forward to seeing The World's Finest screen gallery of this feature, because everytime I watch it I see another villain I didn't notice last time.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br13.jpg

You've probably noticed I've not touched much on Batman in this post yet – there's not really a lot to say about him. This is very much Luthor's movie, with Superman playing second string and Batman a distant third. It feels like a movie in which Batman is a guest star rather than one of the headliners. They got most of what is here right though (Conroyism kicks in again) and the design, and I've probably told you several times is really, really sweet.

There's no real character arc for him – most of the good stuff comes from the chemistry/banter between them, the best one being their conversation about the villain Magpie.

“Clark... what the hell's a good villain?”

I think we could've had a great story about Superman's ego in here as Luthor becomes President, but apparently there was too much punching to be done. Sadly the fight scenes, while very good, aren't at the level of some of their previous efforts – the smackdowns from Superman: Doomsday and Justice League Unlimited are far greater than Public Enemies. One gets the impression we wouldn't be saying this if Joquam Dos Santos, Dave Bullock or Dan Riba were directing the feature.

As with the book, there's a lot of …. really silly stuff in here. Toyman is really irritating, although he does have some great scenes with Powergirl, and the giant Superbat robot... that's just bad fan fiction stuff. We also see Luthor, having spent the entire film being a bad ass President who looks astonishingly like Kurt Angle suddenly turn into his Superfriends persona with that silly, silly green power suit. I suppose it gives Superman and Luthor their physical encounter which was needed but just look at it. It looks like a giant bloody toy. I did actually like the rest of the fight scene though, as Luthor unleashes years of frustration out on the Man of Tomorrow and even gets some nice nods to Superman: The Movie in there.

“You're supposed to be our saviour?? I think it's time you died for our sins!”

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br14.jpg

I don't mean to sound like I'm ragging on it, as it's a perfectly enjoyable film but I imagine there's much better Batman/Superman stories to adapt. With the film doing as well as it did and a sequel being green lite straight away. It's rumoured that the sequel is called Turn to The Dark Side, which could feature Darkseid but alas, with nothing confirmed, who the hell knows.

As I said above, there's plenty of great Batman/Superman stories to tell – my personal favorite is “The Search For Kryptonite” in which Batman and Superman travel the world searching for ALL the meteor fragments from his home world. It even prominently features Amanda Waller and has a fantastic, fantastic fight to adapt in Superman vs The All American Boy.

Either way, we'll be seeing plenty of both Batman and Superman in DTVs. No complaints here!

Pretty much Agree on all counts, here's my review:

I'm a fan of this comic story of the same name it is based on. But I felt Ed McGuinness art designs were not translated to animation that well and the action is subpar. The saving grace of this film are the famous DCAU triad of VA's Tim Daly, Kevin Conroy and Clancy Brown voicing Superman, Batman and Lex Luthor respectively. Some necessary changes were made to improve upon the action-oriented comic story but due to the short running time it lacks some character development and a few plot holes. The Superman/Batman dynamic is also good and Tim Daly and Kevin Conroy turned it great with what little material they have. You still feel that great chemistry of camaraderie/rivalry between their characters. Clancy Brown is also great as President Lex Luthor and this is more of his story about his rise and fall to power and descent into madness. Despite it's shortcomings, its light fare simplicity and the dynamic between the 2 DC's greatest heroes made it a fun ride. Would had been improved with a longer running time with a more polished, fluid animation of Ed McGuinness art that could have meshed better with Bruce Timm animation designs. ^__^' *** 1/2 stars

Stu, its "Journey to the Dark Side." Could be about w/ Darkseid and Supergirl from "The Supergirl from Krypton," or "Absolute Power," about the World's Finest adopted by the Legion of Supervillains (Cosmic King, Saturn Queen, and Lightning Lord) as World Conquerors/Dictators. I believe writer Stan Berkowitz is pretty vocal about wanting to write and adapt this story.

“The Search For Kryptonite” DCU dtv would be pretty awesome!!! LOVE that story! :D :anime:

[supergirl's pal]

I don't mean to sound like I'm ragging on it, as it's a perfectly enjoyable film but I imagine there's much better Batman/Superman stories to adapt. With the film doing as well as it did and a sequel being green lite straight away. It's rumoured that the sequel is called Turn to The Dark Side, which could feature Darkseid but alas, with nothing confirmed, who the hell knows.


Stu, its "Journey to the Dark Side." Could be about w/ Darkseid and Supergirl from "The Supergirl from Krypton," or "Absolute Power," about the World's Finest adopted by the Legion of Supervillains (Cosmic King, Saturn Queen, and Lightning Lord) as World Conquerors/Dictators. I believe writer Stan Berkowitz is pretty vocal about wanting to write and adapt this story.

It might be the Supergirl story.
DC Direct recently announced another Michael Turner styled Supergirl statue and a Superman/Supergirl action figure two pack that comes with a Superman/Batman Supergirl TPB. Now why of all times would they release both of those this October? That is around the same time the next DTV after "Under the Red Hood" comes out. Coincidence?

[DisneyBoy]

Stu, you are so unbelievably wrong about Lois on Smallville. I respect you too much as a fellow Toonzoner, and for this thread alone, to let you go around saying that, much less thinking it. I won't deny that Erica D did have chemistry with Tom at one point, and that there must have been good lines written for her...but her character progression was as follows - drunken, pushy university student to tabloid journalist...to woman who sleeps her way into the Daily Planet and throws herself at everybody (Metallo, Clark, Oliver) and is suddenly in one episode a huge reporter who knows the Dalai Lama and in another episode needs to fabricate a superhero to create a fake headline. Oh, and in-between, she's tried on about a DOZEN cheap sexy outfits (please see her closet in "Warrior"). She's a disgusting, poorly written and defined take on Lois that honestly makes me sick because it insults what's supposed to be an intelligent character and insults my intelligence as an audience member. I'm sure on some level, Erica is embarrassed at how the writers took her legendary character and portrayed her as a floozy that gets everything handed to her. She's annoying and awful. Stu, please take a second look at her. And think hard. You clearly are a thinking person, I can't believe you honestly see her as one of the best Lois' ever.

Of all the portrayals to try and defend on Smallville, you're really choosing the hardest one. I think it's easier to support their Clark, even with his inconsistent stances on lying (okay when I do it, but BAD Chloe!) and murder (okay when I do it, but BAD Ollie!), sullen attitude and poor development.

But back to this thread (which I seriously need to catch up on!)...

The wording of your sentence made it sound as though Bane was still being played by Henry Silva, which is why I made the correction. Reread it, you'll see what I mean.


While the story does make sense thanks in large part to crafty writing, and that it conveniently corrects glaring errors of the original series, like Terry and Matt bearing no genetic resemblance to their parents

There may not be a universal scale that measures just which plot twists determine how much a story "makes sense", but I'll say from my perspective, it was shoddy writing. Yes, I could see Waller joining team Batman, and yes, I could also see her taking radical measures...but the whole "Ohhhh! I'll try and have these people killed in front of their kid, because that made Bruce Batman so that MUST mean it'll work again!" thing was a stretch and a half and three quarters around the block. It was so OUT THERE, it made Joker physically transforming Tim Drake's body in his later years seem totally true-to-life. That whole Waller monologue was them bending over backwards to do something that didn't need to be done, and worse...wasn't an interesting/fun/exciting story to tell. The only good part about Epilogue was the reverse opener from "On Leather Wings". The rest was just....artsy, half-baked "Oh let's just do it - it's the last episode, and it'll seem EPIC" nonsense, not at all in keeping with the mantra of the DCAU.

So "crafty writing"? No.

And as for Terry and his bro, they could inherit the hair from the men on their Mom's side of the family (most males do, to one extent or another, I'm told).

[Shredhead]

Agreed on the Superman Batman movie not bad but not great tell. Sadly both thte Marvel and DC movies have been like this both really have had only one stand out and thats been Green lanturn and Wolverine vs Hulk. I'm hoping Red Hood can break this for the DC movies.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

Stu, you are so unbelievably wrong about Lois on Smallville. I respect you too much as a fellow Toonzoner, and for this thread alone, to let you go around saying that, much less thinking it. I won't deny that Erica D did have chemistry with Tom at one point, and that there must have been good lines written for her...but her character progression was as follows - drunken, pushy university student to tabloid journalist...to woman who sleeps her way into the Daily Planet and throws herself at everybody (Metallo, Clark, Oliver) and is suddenly in one episode a huge reporter who knows the Dalai Lama and in another episode needs to fabricate a superhero to create a fake headline. Oh, and in-between, she's tried on about a DOZEN cheap sexy outfits (please see her closet in "Warrior"). She's a disgusting, poorly written and defined take on Lois that honestly makes me sick because it insults what's supposed to be an intelligent character and insults my intelligence as an audience member. I'm sure on some level, Erica is embarrassed at how the writers took her legendary character and portrayed her as a floozy that gets everything handed to her. She's annoying and awful. Stu, please take a second look at her. And think hard. You clearly are a thinking person, I can't believe you honestly see her as one of the best Lois' ever.

Of all the portrayals to try and defend on Smallville, you're really choosing the hardest one. I think it's easier to support their Clark, even with his inconsistent stances on lying (okay when I do it, but BAD Chloe!) and murder (okay when I do it, but BAD Ollie!), sullen attitude and poor development.


DisneyBoy,
I'm glad that you have told Stu about Smallville's portrayal of Lois. I agree with you completely. She is not being portrayed as a smart journalist at all. I think Erika is good looking so she looks pretty on screen as Lois. That may play a part in why Stu thinks that she is one of the best actresses for the character, but looks are not everything! :eek:
To me Smallville is a teen action series, (aimed at new viewers who would never watch the series about Superman) rather then story about Clark before he was Superman.
I did not want to say anything to offend Stu or other Toon Zoners who have the opposite view, but I'm really glad that I'm not the only one thinking the same thoughs. :sweat:
Lately, I have not seen the last season of Smallville, I stopped watching because of lousy villans and bad writing. Maybe Smallville has improved, after all it has been around for more then a few years. :p

[ShadowStar]

I think I've seen Catwoman images from the show, but I don't recall seeing Bane. Which episode was he in? He seems very modern to appear in the show.


He's in the teaser for "Menace of the Conqueror Caveman!".

[DisneyBoy]

Batpup, friends don't let friends praise Smallville's Lois. It just isn't the right thing to do. Thanks for agreeing.

[ABrown]

Batpup, friends don't let friends praise Smallville's Lois. It just isn't the right thing to do. Thanks for agreeing.

But I love Smallville's Lois:(, it might be because I'm not really very knowledgeable when it comes to comics. So I don't know what they're doing wrong with Lois on Smallville.

[Stu]

Stu, you are so unbelievably wrong about Lois on Smallville.

First rule of Toon Zone - an opinion is never wrong. But I digress.


I respect you too much as a fellow Toonzoner, and for this thread alone, to let you go around saying that, much less thinking it. I won't deny that Erica D did have chemistry with Tom at one point, and that there must have been good lines written for her...but her character progression was as follows - drunken, pushy university student to tabloid journalist...to woman who sleeps her way into the Daily Planet and throws herself at everybody (Metallo, Clark, Oliver) and is suddenly in one episode a huge reporter who knows the Dalai Lama and in another episode needs to fabricate a superhero to create a fake headline. Oh, and in-between, she's tried on about a DOZEN cheap sexy outfits (please see her closet in "Warrior"). She's a disgusting, poorly written and defined take on Lois that honestly makes me sick because it insults what's supposed to be an intelligent character and insults my intelligence as an audience member. I'm sure on some level, Erica is embarrassed at how the writers took her legendary character and portrayed her as a floozy that gets everything handed to her. She's annoying and awful. Stu, please take a second look at her. And think hard. You clearly are a thinking person, I can't believe you honestly see her as one of the best Lois' ever.

It's worth noting I'm several seasons behind on Smallville (the last few I saw had Supergirl or this shows version of her) but I've found her to be one of the more interesting characters in the show. There's nothing wrong with portraying her as sexy (and to be fair, the actress does it very well!) - if you had the focused reporter fixated on the lead, then you've basically got Chole's character repeated. Lana is 'the one', the childhood sweetheart, so that's another option they can't use. The frequent number of boyfriends aside she's had is irrelevant to me - I think she's been one of the great reasons for watching the show since she came in (it took them a long time to bring in a character strong enough to replace her as my favourite, but they got there eventually with Green Arrow)


He's in the teaser for "Menace of the Conqueror Caveman!".

Ta. Something to look forward to when WHV eventually releases the season set.

[Stu]

There was much controversy surrounding the announcement of Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths. Most fans longed for the return of the DCU, and it was hoped that this feature would be the long rumored World's Collide story, which was written to take place between Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

I personally knew it wouldn't, via insider sources that I can't disclose, so my anticipation for the feature was only about the same as the rest of these DC features – something I would buy when it was released, but not something to get too hyped up over. Curiously enough, the one I was looking forward to the most was Green Lantern: First Flight, despite not being a huge fan of the character. My brother watching the rather awesome trailer every other day might have had something to do with it though.

Alas, no DCU meant new casting, which again meant I had to wonder who was going to try and fail to fill the mighty shoes of Kevin Conroy.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br15.jpg

I watched the first look on the Superman/Batman DVD, but have managed to avoid most of the other spoilers for the film – I heard William Baldwin had been cast as Batman, but by the time I sat down and watched the feature, I didn't know what he would sound like.

The story sees an alternate reality Lex Luthor travel to our world to seek The Justice League's help, as The Crime Syndicate have overrun his world. In the different dimension, Luthor is the leader of The Justice League and 'opposite' versions of the Batman, Superman etc are the bad guys.

There's still some JL/JLU stuff to be found in the script – the team are in the process of building their new headquarters (if you remember, Batman crashed their old one into The Thanagarians worm hole generator thingy, royally pissing on their fireworks) and Batman is shown using the team's teleporter for the first time.

That's when he opens his mouth. Upon hearing Baldwin speak as Batman for the first time, I knew they'd made a casting blunder. Baldwin, while not as bad as Rino Romano in the role, doesn't have the 'it' factor that is required for a great Batman voice. His gravel voice simply doesn't sound scary, confident or sexy enough. It doesn't match the character – it doesn't help that due to the dialouge being typical Dwayne McDuffie JLU dialogue, that well... these lines were written for Conroy, and you can guess how he'd play in. It's odd, and to me, it was almost distracting everytime he opened his mouth.

Design wise, Batman fairs a lot better. The model is his basic comic book costume, but it's that dark the black, grey and blue almost merge into one – it actually looks very cool, and pops on the screen. These DC DVDs have done a far better job with the models than the JLU show ever did – they've stepped up their game here. The coloring is also a lot better – this movie in paticular has some sweet animation from Moi – the film pops better than any JLU episode and is probably a better looking feature than The New Frontier, despite how much I love the previous films models. They've add unneeded lines to his face once again, but as far as models go, this one is pretty spot on. All the characters look great in the feature – the character designer has done a fine job here. The Flash in particular looks great and Superman is excellent – very Christopher Reeve esquire.

http://marvel.toonzone.net/Stu/br16.jpg

I think Batman choosing not to go Earth 2 or whatever it's called as they have too much to do on our planet is out of character, as everyone else on the team decided to go. I understand they needed him to stay for the purpose of the story, but I think a better reason for him staying was needed. Even if it was “I can't go yet, but I'll join you later” - possibly to get more help?

Him staying left us with a great fight between him and Superwoman – the rib breaking scene was absolutely brutal. It's not the best fight scene in the movie (that would go to the fight in the clouds). Upon it's conclusion, we see Batman shout at Luthor, which only serves as evidence that Baldwin is miscast here.

It sounds like I'm ragging on the film, but I genuinely think it's one of their better efforts, possibly in the top 3 of recent DTDVDs from both DC and Marvel but the casting throughout the picture is a mixed bag. Superman, Batman, Ultraman, Lex Luthor and The Jester fail to impress, but there's some outstanding casting in Josh Keaton as The Flash, Vanessa Marshall as Wonder Woman and the highlight of the picture with James Wood as Owlman.

Woods is phenomenal as Owlman. He gives the villain a major threat, as with each of line of dialogue he calmly speaks you know his mind is spinning to do something really cold and evil, yet Woods' delivery gives the impression he really doesn't care about killing the entire universe. Even as he is about to retrieve the device that he will use to end billion upon billions of lives, he doesn't sound concerned. It's evil – if they had done this as an over the top laughing villain, or a cocky super powered tough guy (like Ultraman), it wouldn't have worked and it would've dragged the picture down with it. Bravo on the casting of Woods' here, Mrs Romano.

One of the highlights of the picture is Batman's fight with Owlman, and as Batman wins and Owlman realizes he's about to die, it hits home for him – he doesn't care if he dies either, so has no reason to try and stop the bomb. Or maybe he just took Batman's line about looking into the abyss and blinking a little too literally.

So that was that – a highly enjoyable film with a few little niggles that kept it from being truly outstanding. However, with Batman being Hollywood's biggest draw and DC's top character, I anticipate that Batman will have a presence in animation for numerous years to come – I imagine that as soon as The Brave And The Bold finishes another series will be on the horizon and a further spin off will be created. I also envision him appearing in more DTVs, based on both his place in the Justice League and solo stories – Under The Red Hood is coming in the fall and there was some suggestions of a movie based on The Killing Joke graphic novel a few months back but nothing has been confirmed by WBA as of yet. (Whether or not The Red Hood movie IS The Killing Joke we were told of is uncertain yet)

Bottom line? We've not seen the last of Batman, on the big screen or the small. How very fortunate we are!

And finally, I am done!

[SilverKnight]

So I spent about three hours reading all of this into the wee morning, and I have to say, you're mostly spot-on with your retrospective. There are, however, some aspects of it I vehemently disagree with; the most important one being when you said that Wayne may as well have died with his parents. Blatant falsity, Stu, my boy--you like the 'man' in Batman? Wayne is that man; he's an emotionally stunted and maladjusted man, but he's the humanity, he's the compassion, the sympathy, and the driving force behind Batman. The Batman seen on the streets, the ones terrifying the thugs and murderers, that's just as much of a mask as foppish socialite tool Bruce Wayne is. Batman is, at the heart of it, a tool of vengeance and retribution, and as an emotional security blanket for an incredibly traumatized human being. Bruce is the facet of his personality that goes beyond simple, petty revenge and transforms it into a sort of personal redemption. Bruce Wayne is still alive, and he bleeds every second of every day; Batman is the tourniquet.

I also take issue with your individual reviews of Gotham Knight, as you may have missed many of the subtle ties between each story. The visuals may be entirely different, but that's it. For instance, Part 1's robber is more than likely the 'High Tech Psycho' that Ramirez and Allen are ordered to take back. Crossfire features a wary Allen that doesn't trust Batman, to which Gordon merely replies, "You will." It also briefly mentions the Wayne-Com Satellite that's crashed in the third vignette. It also features the gang war that's prevalent in the rest of the film.

Field Test, for its 'wtf, Bruce is 15 ><' style, furthered Crossfire's story in his confrontation of the two gang lords and giving them a very stern warning to stay to their own turf before/until he makes their lives hell. It also includes that sleezy businessman who obviously killed off the social worker, but plays it off as gang warfare (mentioned in Crossfire). And it has one of the best lines in the whole damn thing. "I admire a man who vows to rebuild the neighborhood and starts by putting in a golf course."

Descent into the Darkness (or whatever it was called) and Working Through Pain are probably the most 'stand-alone' of the six pieces, though Working Through Pain may have been a direct continuation of the former. Again, they're different animators, so the whole, "Batman is badly injured" thing may have been taken differently to the different directors. Either way, they both carry the same overall theme. Also, kudos to Conroy, because damn, that man can scream like he means it. Good times.

Deadshot was a culmination of the previous stories, in that: 1) the Russians are not happy with the docks alone, and hire Deadshot to assassinate him (NOT Gordon, who was just used as a ploy to get Batman out into the open), 2) Allen is cooperating with Batman, just like Gordon said he would, 3) that sleezy businessman hired Deadshot to kill the social worker standing in his way, 4) the gun collection he found in Working Through Pain is still rattling around in the Mansion (also hinting at Cassandra's words--his inner pain that he can't let go), and 5) that he's fully aware that his mission, on its face, is a fruitless and impossible one; but he does it, anyway, because he's realized that he's fighting for people who can't fight for themselves.

Quite frankly, I thought the movie was pretty damn amazing. But obviously, your mileage may vary.

[JerryvonKramer]

I know it has been flagged up already but really to say this:


To truly review the origins of the animated Batman one must travel back in time to the summer of 1989.

Is just plain wrong. It overlooks both the 60s Filmation series and the later series from the 70s voiced by Adam West, as well as Super Friends. We've even been discussing them on these boards (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3549295).

There were many many episodes of these shows, so it's not like they can just be overlooked as if they don't exist.

Don't get me wrong, this is a great write up, but history revisionism of this sort should be discouraged. Just because this sub-forum restricts itself to the DCAU, doesn't mean that it should ignore the rest of history. I'd be happier if the OP was edited to reflect the fact that Batman's animated roots go a lot deeper than 1989.

[ABrown]

Alas, no DCU meant new casting, which again meant I had to wonder who was going to try and fail to fill the mighty shoes of Kevin Conroy.

Upon hearing Baldwin speak as Batman for the first time, I knew they'd made a casting blunder. Baldwin, while not as bad as Rino Romano in the role, doesn't have the 'it' factor that is required for a great Batman voice. His gravel voice simply doesn't sound scary, confident or sexy enough. It doesn't match the character – it doesn't help that due to the dialouge being typical Dwayne McDuffie JLU dialogue, that well... these lines were written for Conroy, and you can guess how he'd play in. It's odd, and to me, it was almost distracting everytime he opened his mouth.

I couldn't agree more. This movie just screamed "compare our voices to the JL/JLU series voices!" And Batman's voice just didn't seem right.

And for the record, I think that this thread deserves an early nomination for the 2010 Toonzone awards for Thread Of The Year.

[Batman]

Batpup, friends don't let friends praise Smallville's Lois. It just isn't the right thing to do. Thanks for agreeing.

I love Erica's protrayal of Lois Lane on Smallville , She is by far the best incarnation of the character in the live action genre . And I'm not just saying this because Erica Durance is drop dead gorgeous. I'm saying this because I've enjoyed seeing the journey from The Army Brat daughter of General Sam Lane (season 4-5) to The Ace Reporter she has become at The Daily Planet (Season 6-9). She has amazing chemistry with Welling's Clark Kent.

[Stu]

Stuff.

First of all, nice to see you posting here again. :)

It appears there's a bit more to the overall story than I originally remember, but I'm still not terribly fond of the segment idea. I'm not sure putting another animated full movie in between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight would've worked either so I guess thier options were a little limited. It would've been nice to have a feature on the DVD to explain why they went the direction they did, but the features on these DTDVDs always absoloutly suck, don't they?


Is just plain wrong. It overlooks both the 60s Filmation series and the later series from the 70s voiced by Adam West, as well as Super Friends. We've even been discussing them on these boards.

There were many many episodes of these shows, so it's not like they can just be overlooked as if they don't exist.

Don't get me wrong, this is a great write up, but history revisionism of this sort should be discouraged. Just because this sub-forum restricts itself to the DCAU, doesn't mean that it should ignore the rest of history. I'd be happier if the OP was edited to reflect the fact that Batman's animated roots go a lot deeper than 1989.

I'm not knowledgable enough to offer much of an opinion on them. I've never seen Superfriends, nor the Bat-Mite show. I enjoy what I've seen of the Filmation Batman and Robin cartoon, but there 5 episodes isn't really enough to form much of an opinion.

Regardless, the Batman we speak of in this thread doesn't have much to do with any of the previous shows. With the exception of the finale season of Justice League Unlimited and the odd nod, Superfriends etc didn't really shape any of the post 89 cartoons.


I couldn't agree more. This movie just screamed "compare our voices to the JL/JLU series voices!" And Batman's voice just didn't seem right.

Yep - you could feel the DCU voice actors saying these lines, which made it slightly distracting. I suppose that was always going to happen, as McDuffie always has memorable dialouge. It wasn't a huge problem with some of the characters - The Flash and Wonder Woman were better cast in this picture than the show, but I really missed Newburn and Conroy here.

As an aside, the "Oh ccrrrrraaaaaapppp!!!" line was one of the funniest jokes I've ever seen DC animation do. :D


And for the record, I think that this thread deserves an early nomination for the 2010 Toonzone awards for Thread Of The Year.

I wasn't aware such an award took place, but thank you all the same. :)

[ABrown]

I wasn't aware such an award took place, but thank you all the same. :)

I guess this was the 2009 winner:confused:

Best Thread
WINNER: 420 AND Your Favorite Facial Expressions

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?t=262224&highlight=2009+TOONZONE+AWARDS

[ShadowStar]

Yep - you could feel the DCU voice actors saying these lines, which made it slightly distracting. I suppose that was always going to happen, as McDuffie always has memorable dialouge. It wasn't a huge problem with some of the characters - The Flash and Wonder Woman were better cast in this picture than the show, but I really missed Newburn and Conroy here.

What did you think of J'onn's voice actor? I thought he did a fine job substituting for the JL/U voice actor (Carl Lumbly?). I thought Superman was fine too - didn't you think he sounded similiar to George Newbern? The first time I watched Crisis on Two Earths I thought Josh Keaton sounded quite like Michael Rosenbaum, but that feeling subsided a little bit the second time I saw it. Regardless, Keaton did a good job. So did Vanessa Marshall - in fact, I think she's better suited to Wonder Woman than Mary Jane Watson. But Susan Eisenberg is a better Wonder Woman; the whole JL/U voice cast was better, really.

[Stu]

What did you think of J'onn's voice actor? I thought he did a fine job substituting for the JL/U voice actor (Carl Lumbly?).

I liked J'ohhn's voice actor - I think I prefer him to Lumbly to be honest. My favourite MM voice so far is the guy from The New Frontier.


I thought Superman was fine too - didn't you think he sounded similiar to George Newbern?

I think that was part of the problem - a little too similar to Newbern, to the point where I thought why just not go for Newburn? I'm not one of those people that thinks that no one else is fit to play the characters beyond my own personal favourite, but when you hire someone too similar and it sounds like a soundalike, I think you have problems. I love Conroy's Batman but still really like Sisto's Batman too. And with Spider-Man, Chris Barnes is my favourite but I still love Soles, Harris' and Keaton's Spider-Man too.


The first time I watched Crisis on Two Earths I thought Josh Keaton sounded quite like Michael Rosenbaum, but that feeling subsided a little bit the second time I saw it. Regardless, Keaton did a good job. So did Vanessa Marshall - in fact, I think she's better suited to Wonder Woman than Mary Jane Watson. But Susan Eisenberg is a better Wonder Woman; the whole JL/U voice cast was better, really.

See, I thought Keaton was great straightaway. I knew going in that it was going to be difficult being that the new guys were writing lines written for the original JL/JLU cast, but some pulled it off better than others.

As for Marshall, I prefer her to Eisenberg - never really thought much to Eisenberg. She got better as the show went on (she is really wooden in the first few episodes) but out of all the WW's I've heard, Eisenberg is my least favourite.

[ShadowStar]

I liked J'ohhn's voice actor - I think I prefer him to Lumbly to be honest. My favourite MM voice so far is the guy from The New Frontier.

If memory serves, I didn't like his voice in The New Frontier... I liked his Crisis on Two Earths voice, though I didn't hear enough of it to make me think it was better for J'onn than Carl Lumbly's voice. But it did suit his Crisis character design.


As for Marshall, I prefer her to Eisenberg - never really thought much to Eisenberg. She got better as the show went on (she is really wooden in the first few episodes) but out of all the WW's I've heard, Eisenberg is my least favourite.

As Bruce Timm said in that recent studio interview, Eisenberg's voice had a vulnerability to it that Marshall's didn't. I agree with him and think that Marshall's take on Wonder Woman was slightly bland by comparison. Eisenberg was more convincing both as the princess and the warrior IMO. I haven't heard Woman Woman's voice in the Wonder Woman DTV...

[seryass]

I realise I may be in a minority here but I personally don't think Harmon sounds anything like Newburn. Maybe if he did I might like his role a little better but sadly I find it to be a little bland. If anything he sounds a lot more like Tim Daly's Superman but lacks some of the emotional nuances that made Daly's Superman what it was. Granted that is a little unfair though since Daly was in a whole series and Superman did very little in this movie.

I have to admit I really liked Marshall and Keaton as Wonder Woman and Flash from the start. Although I prefer Rosenbaum's Flash (I find Keaton's Flash to be a little too stereotypical "cool guy" acting) nevertheless I did really enjoy Keaton's take on it (the "Oh craaaaapp" line being a classic). Marshall on the other hand really is just as good as Eisenberg as was MM's voice for this movie. In fact I too really liked the quieter nuanced performance for MM in this.

I do feel that Baldwin does let the film down somewhat as he just doesn't fit this interpretation of the character. Don't get me wrong. He's not extremely bad. The role is passable but for most of the movie I don't get the feeling that he fits the role (the only time I personally feel he did was the oft quoted abyss line).

[Southern Dandy]

I think I've seen Catwoman images from the show, but I don't recall seeing Bane. Which episode was he in? He seems very modern to appear in the show.

Bane is part of the army of supervillains beaten up by Robin and friends at the beginning of "Sidekicks Assemble!". It's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo, so it would be easy to not notice. I was very surprised to see him myself. Since there was no retro cartoony look to base him on, he looked a lot less goofy than the rest of the villains on the show.

[young101]

i forget which episode but bane is also in another episode's teaser where batman and wildcat fight him.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

i forget which episode but bane is also in another episode's teaser where batman and wildcat fight him.

That would be the teaser for "Menace of the Conqueror Caveman!". That is Bane's first appearance.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/bravebold/guides/reviews/17caveman/

[Stu]

The mask looks a bit goofy from the WF images... suppose it fits in with the show. I think Bane looked really cool in the few seconds he was in Public Enemies.

Perhaps a Bane retrospective next?:p

[M.O.D.O.K.]

The mask looks a bit goofy from the WF images... suppose it fits in with the show. I think Bane looked really cool in the few seconds he was in Public Enemies.

Perhaps a Bane retrospective next?:p

Before the Killer Moth retrospective? Blasphemy!

[CyclonatorZ]

Reading this retrospective over again, my opinons really haven't changed at all - but I have realized something relating to the whole "can B:TAS be topped" debate. Personaly, I feel that in a way, it already has been topped in superhero animation by Marvel's own Spectacular Spiderman, by virtue of the fact that (IMO) the latter show had no bad episodes to speak of. Sure, it didn't last nearly as long as the former show, but even some of B:TAS's early episodes were either mediocre or flat out bad. In contrast, TSSM is the only show I've watched thus far that maintained a consistent level of quality from start to finish, even in what I consider it's weakest episode, Reinforcement. It really seemed like a show made by the fans, for the fans, and the only executive meddling it suffered was in it's abrupt cancelation.

Personally, I feel that the only way for a future batman show to top B:TAS is for it to display a similar level of consistency, with either no truly poor episodes or so few that they can be dismissed without harm. I don't know how this could be accomplished, but neither can I say that it's an impossiblity. Hey, now that I think about it, I wonder what would happen if Greg Weisman actually directed a Batman show, instead of just contriuting occasional scripts to it. I'd definitely tune into it, that's for sure. ;)

[AlgeaX]

Reading this retrospective over again, my opinions really haven't changed at all - but I have realized something relating to the whole "can B:TAS be topped" debate. Personally, I feel that in a way, it already has been topped in superhero animation by Marvel's own Spectacular Spider-man, by virtue of the fact that (IMO) the latter show had no bad episodes to speak of. Sure, it didn't last nearly as long as the former show, but even some of B:TAS's early episodes were either mediocre or flat out bad. In contrast, TSSM is the only show I've watched thus far that maintained a consistent level of quality from start to finish, even in what I consider it's weakest episode, Reinforcement. It really seemed like a show made by the fans, for the fans, and the only executive meddling it suffered was in it's abrupt cancelation.

Well If we're opening the floor to all challengers, I'd personally say Gargoyles already topped B:TAS in terms of high and consistent quality back in '94.


Personally, I feel that the only way for a future batman show to top B:TAS is for it to display a similar level of consistency, with either no truly poor episodes or so few that they can be dismissed without harm. I don't know how this could be accomplished, but neither can I say that it's an impossibility. Hey, now that I think about it, I wonder what would happen if Greg Weisman actually directed a Batman show, instead of just contributing occasional scripts to it. I'd definitely tune into it, that's for sure. ;)

Well Greg could produce a Wonder Twins animated series and I'd probably still end up watching it religiously. :p

As for another Bat toon eventually topping B:TAS. Well, I don't want to say it's impossible or that nobody should ever try. But B:TAS is just so iconic and set such a high bar with it's better eps that you'd have to be either supremely arrogant or supremely brilliant (maybe even both) to even try.

That's where I think the creators of Brave & The Bold were really clever. They knew if they went with the tried and true formula of "tormented avenger crying for mommy and daddy" they be forever trapped in Bruce Timm and Alan Burnett's shadows. So instead they decided to do something completely different, creating a show that was so radically different from B:TAS that there's really no way to compare them. Both shows are very good at what they do, but what they do are two completely different things.

[CyclonatorZ]

Well If we're opening the floor to all challengers, I'd personally say Gargoyles already topped B:TAS in terms of high and consistent quality back in '94.


I still need to see that series - if only they would put the second half of season two on DVD so I could buy the complete Greg Weisman-sanctioned collection (since I know Season 3 doesn't count in his or most fan's eyes). :sad:


As for another Bat toon eventually topping B:TAS. Well, I don't want to say it's impossible or that nobody should ever try. But B:TAS is just so iconic and set such a high bar with it's better eps that you'd have to be either supremely arrogant or supremely brilliant (maybe even both) to even try.

That's where I think the creators of Brave & The Bold were really clever. They knew if they went with the tried and true formula of "tormented avenger crying for mommy and daddy" they be forever trapped in Bruce Timm and Alan Burnett's shadows. So instead they decided to do something completely different, creating a show that was so radically different from B:TAS that there's really no way to compare them. Both shows are very good at what they do, but what they do are two completely different things.

I agree, which is why I think a Batman show that tried to top B:TAS would have to take a slightly different direction, instead of simply just trying to be "the original series, only bettter." Perhaps it could take a cue from the aformentioned Spectacular Spiderman and utilize actual story arcs, instead of just having a bunch of individual episodes that often are not linked. While I'm fairly familiar with much of the Batman mythos, I'm not quite sure how this would work, but I'm sure a really good team of writers could come up with a way. Add to that animation as good as or better than The Batman, and a crew of talented voice actors that can come up with refreshing takes on classic characters, and I think you'd have a cartoon that could theoretically topple B:TAS.

The question is, would the fanbase feel the same way? I've seen how the Batman community is often unwilling to give new shows a chance, and just mentioning the above possiblity would probably be enough to elict a few cries of "blasphemy" from the most devoted fans. Getting Bruce Timm on as a consultant and Conroy and Hamill back into their respective roles would probably squelch a lot of the hard feelings, but that would also be essentially cheating by just reliving B:TAS (besides, Hamill isn't voicing the Joker after Arkham Asylum 2, so that's out of the question). So, essentially, a kind of effort like this has a fairly high chance of failing no matter how good it is. :shrug:

[Palin Dromos]

Perhaps it could take a cue from the aformentioned Spectacular Spiderman and utilize actual story arcs, instead of just having a bunch of individual episodes that often are not linked. While I'm fairly familiar with much of the Batman mythos, I'm not quite sure how this would work, but I'm sure a really good team of writers could come up with a way.


That would be a cool idea for a future series. Maybe take famous arcs from the comics, ones that are too long for the DTV DC Universe project, and use them as the basis for season arcs. The Knightfall Saga, No Man's Land, Long Halloween/Dark Victory, Batman & Son/Batman RIP/Batman & Robin/Return of Bruce Wayne, etc.

It shouldn't be completely slavish to the original stories, but rather take the best pieces of those basic arcs, and at the same time make fresh stories.

To see and entire season set in an NML environment would be really cool. I wouldn't need the exact stories from the comics, just basic ideas- Rebuilding the bat-family, the strained relationship with Gordon, the Rogue's Gallery carving out territories, etc. The season premiere's and finale's would be pretty obvious bookends- Start with the actual earthquake, end with the government finally returning to help.

In general Batman's a flexible character, and I'm always interested in seeing him in any interpretation.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

That would be a cool idea for a future series. Maybe take famous arcs from the comics, ones that are too long for the DTV DC Universe project, and use them as the basis for season arcs. The Knightfall Saga, No Man's Land, Long Halloween/Dark Victory, Batman & Son/Batman RIP/Batman & Robin/Return of Bruce Wayne, etc.

I think Cyclonator meant just structuring the seasons in arcs, rather than specific comic book arcs. SSM used very loose adaptations of comic book arcs as well as original stories. I think using some comic stories would be fine as long as they are used sparsely and combined with original stories.

[Palin Dromos]

I think Cyclonator meant just structuring the seasons in arcs, rather than specific comic book arcs. SSM used very loose adaptations of comic book arcs as well as original stories. I think using some comic stories would be fine as long as they are used sparsely and combined with original stories.

Oh yeah, I got that. I was just pondering an angle for a series that hadn't been done yet, that the ever-fickle fan community wouldn't immediately reject. Stick closer to the broader story arcs from the comics, but use it to tell fresh stories, similar to SSM. I think we're on the same page :).

[CyclonatorZ]

I think Cyclonator meant just structuring the seasons in arcs, rather than specific comic book arcs. SSM used very loose adaptations of comic book arcs as well as original stories. I think using some comic stories would be fine as long as they are used sparsely and combined with original stories.

Exactly. Just doing animated versions of classic Batman tales won't be enough to Top B:TAS, especally since the latter toon did some of those itself. What I'm talking about is a series that incorporates what works from various incarnations, combining it with new ideas and organizing it around lengthy story arcs. The thing that made The Spectacular Spiderman so brilliant in my mind was how well structured everything was, to the point where future characters and plots were foreshadowed way ahead of time, and characters sometimes appeared in the background before they even had a speaking role. B:TAS had some of this as well, but never to the extent that every episode linked together intrricately. Many of the episodes were one off-stories that only occasionally had sequels, and the timeline was much looser as a whole. A Batman series that went in the opposite direction while still being excellent would, IMO, have the best chance at at least equalling B:TAS if not actually topping it - especially if the structure resulted in an even more consistent quality.