Batman & Robin #7 - 9 "Blackest Knight" Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

A new pivotal storyline begins!

BATMAN & ROBIN #7

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/3/13786_180x270.jpg (http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/3/13786_400x600.jpg)

Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Cameron Stewart

Knight, Squire and Batwoman guest-star alongside The Dynamic Duo in "Blackest Knight," a three-part story illustrated by Cameron Stewart. Readers who enjoyed Batman R.I.P. and Final Crisis won't want to miss this captivating new storyline packed with additional clues on the Domino Killer and the details surrounding the "death" of Bruce Wayne!

Comments?

[Bat Bruce]

If you're going to start your comic in a different country in the middle of a chase, a few boxes of narration would be nice so readers don't think theyve missed half the story!

Resurrecting 'not actually dead' Bruce could be interesting. I wonder if it will play out a little like Optimus Prime's resurrection in Transformers G1, where he tries to kill everyone and then dies saving them in the end.

[witness]

Readers who enjoyed Batman R.I.P. and Final Crisis won't want to miss this captivating new storyline packed with additional clues on the Domino Killer and the details surrounding the "death" of Bruce Wayne!


If you're going to start your comic in a different country in the middle of a chase, a few boxes of narration would be nice so readers don't think theyve missed half the story!


Bat Bruce, I couldn't agree with you more. I've said this a thousand times before, so I guess I'll say it again. If you're going to tell a story, it has to be coherent enough for people ( i.e. almost anybody ) to understand. I am not English, so I didn't understand the conversation between Batman and the Pearly King (or whoever he's supposed to be). It really put me off for the rest of this story. Between that and coming into a story that feels like it ended before it really began, I'm seriously considering dropping this title.

In reference to the tag, I didn't enjoy R.I.P. or Final Crisis. This is strike two. One more and I'm out.

[Adam Tyner]

If you're going to start your comic in a different country in the middle of a chase, a few boxes of narration would be nice so readers don't think theyve missed half the story!Yeah, I had no idea what was going on for quite a while there, and it probably didn't help that I had no clue who The Knight and Squire are. Glad to see someone else say that because all of the reviews I've read so far have been glowing.

It didn't help that one of Batwoman's first panels had the word bubbles swapped too. Oops!

[Bat Bruce]

I am not English, so I didn't understand the conversation between Batman and the Pearly King (or whoever he's supposed to be). It really put me off for the rest of this story.

To be fair, I'm as British as tea & crumpets and I had no idea what he was saying :D



It didn't help that one of Batwoman's first panels had the word bubbles swapped too. Oops!
That was great, quality control at it's finest...

[rggkjg1]

talia acted and said some suspicious things to alfred. because of this, i now get the feeling damian is actually a clone of bruce wayne.

[Jin Kazama]

talia acted and said some suspicious things to alfred. because of this, i now get the feeling damian is actually a clone of bruce wayne.

It always stuck with me, because it kind of summed up Grant's entire Batman run to me, but not long after "Batman and Son" ended, Grant was asked either by a fan at a convention or in an interview somewhere how his storyline was possible since Batman's son was adopted by someone else, and he stated that he had never actually read "Son of the Demon," but liked the idea of Bruce having a kid. Really wish I could find where that interview is.

But, yeah, knowing that, the clone theory makes a lot of sense, actually. It could be that ace in the hole that DC has once Grant ends his run that could reset the whole "Batman's Kid" thing, and make happy the people that hated that it either didn't follow the original story, or the idea of Bruce having a kid if Damian doesn't catch on outside of Grant's writing him.

Then again, Damian could be the genetic offspring of Taylor Swift and the Easter Bunny and I'd still hate the kid.

[James Harvey]

Batman & Robin double-ships in February with Parts 2 and 3 of "Blackest Knight" guest-starring Batwoman, Knight and Squire!

BATMAN & ROBIN #8

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/4/14027_180x270.jpg (http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/4/14027_400x600.jpg)

Written by: Grant Morrison
Art by: Cameron Stewart

The Story: Only months into his new role as Batman, Dick Grayson faces perhaps the biggest threat of his life. In hopes of attaining his heart's desire, has Dick instead unleashed a terror the likes of which the world has never seen?

Meanwhile, back in Gotham City, Alfred and a recuperating Robin are at the mercy of someone both fearsome and familiar…

Comments?

[rggkjg1]

i'm snowed in and can't get comics. i have another blackest night/jason todd theory. maybe this batman corpse is actually the body of jason todd dressed up as batman.

[Bat Bruce]

So in the space of about 3-4 issues, Dick has crippled 1 sidekick, had another die in his arms and resurected a zombie. It took Bruce YEARS to do all that stuff :evil:

[James Harvey]

The conclusion of "Blackest Knight" guest-starring Batwoman, Knight and Squire!

BATMAN & ROBIN #9

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/4/14028_180x270.jpg (http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/1/4/14028_400x600.jpg)

Written by: Grant Morrison
Art by: Cameron Stewart

The Story: Only months into his new role as Batman, Dick Grayson faces perhaps the biggest threat of his life. In hopes of attaining his heart's desire, has Dick instead unleashed a terror the likes of which the world has never seen?

Meanwhile, back in Gotham City, Alfred and a recuperating Robin are at the mercy of someone both fearsome and familiar…

Comments?

[Heeroyuy_Batman]

It always stuck with me, because it kind of summed up Grant's entire Batman run to me, but not long after "Batman and Son" ended, Grant was asked either by a fan at a convention or in an interview somewhere how his storyline was possible since Batman's son was adopted by someone else, and he stated that he had never actually read "Son of the Demon," but liked the idea of Bruce having a kid. Really wish I could find where that interview is.

The interview you refer to is in a Wizard magazine. I don't remember which issue though. The interview also states that Grant is using the "Superboy-Prime" reality punch to cover his butt about the differences between "Batman and Son" and "Son of the Demon".

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

The interview you refer to is in a Wizard magazine. I don't remember which issue though. The interview also states that Grant is using the "Superboy-Prime" reality punch to cover his butt about the differences between "Batman and Son" and "Son of the Demon".


The way I see it is that Son of the Demon is not part of current continuity anymore than any of the Batman stories from the 50's that were used by Morrison for Batman's Black Casebook.

Son of The Demon is not a prequel to Batman and Son. Basically, Son of The Demon and the Black Casebook stories are only stories that influenced Morrison's Batman stories, so they should be considered by readers only as non-canon Elseworlds stories.

[Jin Kazama]

The way I see it is that Son of the Demon is not part of current continuity anymore than any of the Batman stories from the 50's that were used by Morrison for Batman's Black Casebook.

Son of The Demon is not a prequel to Batman and Son. Basically, Son of The Demon and the Black Casebook stories are only stories that influenced Morrison's Batman stories, so they should be considered by readers only as non-canon Elseworlds stories.

Then in that case, they still need to tell the story of Talia and Bruce having a kid. Damian just kinda showed up and Talia told Bruce that it was his kid, which Bruce never questioned.

You can't just cherry pick plot elements from a story and say "This story never happened, even though we're using stuff from it."

I can use the "Superboy Wall Punch" excuse, even if I don't like it. Them doing that was supposed to fix problems, not create new ones (This, Jason Todd).

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

You can't just cherry pick plot elements from a story and say "This story never happened, even though we're using stuff from it."


But that's exactly what Morrison did and does with almost everything he writes.

Even if you acknowledge Son of The Demon, it's going to have errors that contradict or differ, because Morrison didn't read it and follow it directly. He can apply the Superboy wall punch excuse all he wants after the fact, but when it comes down to it you can pretty much just say that he's retconned the story by taking what part he wanted from it and ignoring everything else.

But let's just disregard Son of The Demon and look at it this way -- Is it so hard to believe that Bruce knocked up Talia at some point in their past, when he's obviously had sexual relations with her at least once during the course of that time? I mean, it happens all the time in real life. There's plenty of guys that discover much later after the affair took place (and sometimes never know), that they've impregnated a woman. Do we have to see the actual sexual act between them, the entire nine month gestation period and the birth for us to believe it really happened?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to apply some sort logic where non really applies with Morrison's writing. But I guess that what makes it both frustrating and fun.

[Jin Kazama]

Even if you acknowledge Son of The Demon, it's going to have errors that contradict or differ, because Morrison didn't read it and follow it directly. He can apply the Superboy wall punch excuse all he wants after the fact, but when it comes down to it you can pretty much just say that he's retconned the story by taking what part he wanted from it and ignoring everything else.

Which brings all this back around to my original problem. For a guy that's borrowed so heavily from pre-Crisis stuff to do his current run, and is praised by his fans for reaching so deep into the character's history, he still failed to do any research at all on the most important and long-standing addition he's made to the franchise since he joined.

And, I'm sorry, but considering the amount of stuff he's borrowing from, "Son of the Demon" is one friggin' issue. It's inexcusable that he couldn't find the time to read it if he's going to take such a big element from it.


But let's just disregard Son of The Demon and look at it this way -- Is it so hard to believe that Bruce knocked up Talia at some point in their past, when he's obviously had sexual relations with her at least once during the course of that time? I mean, it happens all the time in real life. There's plenty of guys that discover much later after the affair took place (and sometimes never know), that they've impregnated a woman. Do we have to see the actual sexual act between them, the entire nine month gestation period and the birth for us to believe it really happened?

You're telling me that a man viewed as pretty much a genius can have utility belt with every kind of device imaginable, yet he doesn't carry a condom? :)


I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to apply some sort logic where non really applies with Morrison's writing. But I guess that what makes it both frustrating and fun.

Don't worry, I'm not taking you as argumentative at all. I always enjoy a good debate. But I guess my view on it is falling more on "frustrating" than "fun."

[klammed]

I always thought Son of the Demon happened to be an Elseworlds? Perhaps I'm wrong...

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

You're telling me that a man viewed as pretty much a genius can have utility belt with every kind of device imaginable, yet he doesn't carry a condom? :)



LOL! True!

But I think that's actually one of the things that Morrison changed that makes sense. It's been a while since I've read Batman and Son, but I believe Morrison wrote that Batman was drugged by Talia during their little sexcapade, which explains why he was so careless and didn't remember it.



I always thought Son of the Demon happened to be an Elseworlds? Perhaps I'm wrong...


I'm not sure that when it was originally written if it was meant to be canon or not, but at some point DC decided it best not to deal with Batman having a child, so they treated it as an Elseworlds story and only continued the idea in the Elseworlds series Kingdom Come -- but that was before Morrison reintroduced the idea into DC continuity.

[klammed]

LOL! True!

But I think that's actually one of the things that Morrison changed that makes sense. It's been a while since I've read Batman and Son, but I believe Morrison wrote that Batman was drugged by Talia during their little sexcapade, which explains why he was so careless and didn't remember it.

I'm not sure that when it was originally written if it was meant to be canon or not, but at some point DC decided it best not to deal with Batman having a child, so they treated it as an Elseworlds story and only continued the idea in the Elseworlds series Kingdom Come -- but that was before Morrison reintroduced the idea into DC continuity.

Hnn. Wiki says Son of Demon became an Elseworlds after Zero Hour... not sure how reliable they are. I'd like to go with that though. Gotta say, props to Morrison for calling him 'Damian' as opposed to name none of us can properly say without spittle flying in all directions. And yeah, he was 'drugged senseless' apparently. Slightly disturbing to see him with only his cowl on and them in an embrace in that panel o.O And according to Batman 666, Damian's gestation was in an artificial womb, I'm guessing the same as the one she's currently using for her next clone son.

Try, try, try again, they say.

[Heeroyuy_Batman]

The way I see it is that Son of the Demon is not part of current continuity anymore than any of the Batman stories from the 50's that were used by Morrison for Batman's Black Casebook.

Son of The Demon is not a prequel to Batman and Son. Basically, Son of The Demon and the Black Casebook stories are only stories that influenced Morrison's Batman stories, so they should be considered by readers only as non-canon Elseworlds stories.

I found the issue of Wizard. It's issue 182 and here's an exact quote of the question and answer to Grant Morrison:

"Wizard: Batman and Talia's baby from Son of the Demon has been pretty much ignored by DC continuity for all these years. Did that make it tougher for you to tackle, or more tempting?
Morrison: For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity, I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of the details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis.] People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everybody's a$@." (note: I censored the last word which was not thusly censored in Wizard out of my personal beliefs and out of respect to those who may be offended by that word. For those who aren't offended, it should be easy to figure out what the last word was.)

From this, I take it Mr. Morrison had in the past read Son of the Demon and simply decided to go upon his memory. Admittedly, this was lazy and I make no excuse for him, but at least he had read it in the past.

As far as the continuity issue, I accept his word as to the status of SotD.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Morrison: For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity...

Okay, I guess "kind of" makes it all the more acceptable. :shrug:

But, like he said, the "Superboy punch" was important to cover everybody's a$@ -- including Morrison's own.