Jerry Beck on WB cartoon negatives

[Paul Penna]

The thread about Cinecolor cartoons started me wondering about the current state of WB cartoon negatives, so I decided to fire off a query to Jerry Beck. Specifically, I asked him if he could generalize about the earliest-generation materials (closest to the original camera negatives) which might exist. With his permission, here's his response:

"Every title has a different answer. In some cases only a fine-grain master positive 35mm nitrate print may survive. Mostly a 35mm successive exposure (if in Technicolor) black & white release negative of the [cartoon] exists. (No camera negs, but these are the master materials that made the release prints seen in theatres). Unfortunately, the pre-1950 materials were on nitrate stock, so time is running out for restoration. Warner Bros. has begun an inititive to restore the cartoons. It will take years. And years before the general public sees the results.

"Unfortunately, I have recently learned that the first few original negs of "Blue Ribbon" titles examined have the reissue titles cut in. The original titles were discarded. However prints may exist with the original titles and tracks in the vaults (that's how SCARDY CAT and THE FOGHORN LEGHORN were restored).

"The more one knows about film restoration, the scarier it is when you realize what peril the original materials are in." [End quote]

For those not up on film technology, I'll point out that "nitrate stock" refers to the material the film itself is made of, on which the image-carrying emulsion is coated. Nitrate stock is notoriously subject to deterioration, as well as being quite flammable. Though some nitrate films have, through advantageous storage, survived since the early 1900s, the vast majority have decomposed or even burnt up. It's not unusual to hear horror stories told by film preservationists of opening a can of nitrate film only to find either a pile of dust or a gooey muck. This is one reason why an estimated 80 percent of films made in the silent era no longer exist in any form.

[Patrick McCart]

Nitrate film's chemical composition is very close to gunpowder.

It's actually more volitile since a simple spark or excess heat can blow it up.

Although it may seem bleak for some cartoons (I'm pretty sure the titles in question of quality are the 1930-1934 black & white cartoons like Bosko, Buddy, etc.)

There are excellent restoration processes availible now, both photochemical and new digital systems.

Becky Sharp, the first Technicolor feature, has no original negative. It was restored from B&W by making synthesized color separations and then recombining them. The entire film was restored using just the magenta color record.

There's also The Matinee Idol. Columbia had only a single existing print of this B&W silent film left. They scanned it into the digital realm at high-definition and then restored it digitally. They line-doubled it and output it back to film...the results are stunning. The print had enough damage to make it seem impossible for restoration.

If anyone here has been fortunate enough to see the DVD's of Citizen Kane, North By Northwest, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, you'll notice how great the picture is. The company which restored those three films for video, Lowry Digital Images, has stated that they'll be ready for actual FILM restoration via digital systems.

The processes are out there, but it's important that work has to be done NOW, not later. I'm hoping WB has started restoration on the titles that needed it first, then working their way up to titles from OK condition to those that just need a simple remastering. Even the Blue Ribbon titles can be re-created with the help of re-shooting them.

[Jack]

One thing I fear is that none of this stuff has been regularly checked over the years, do they even know if all the cans of film elements kept over the years still actually have film in them instead of piles of dust? This really scares me. Like Patrick said, I hope they restore the films on a basis of need (rather than popularity or profitability).


Originally posted by Patrick McCart
Even the Blue Ribbon titles can be re-created with the help of re-shooting them.
How would they do that, do you mean recreating the Blue Ribbon cards, or making up fake title cards?


Jack :D

[Matthew Hunter]

That is kind of scary...I'd sure hate to see a classic like "Book Revue" or "Daffy Dilly" turn out to be a can of dust. I know it's costly, but they do need to hurry up. Furthermore, what about the Bosko and Buddy cartoons...those are pretty old, and as I understand it black and white film is exceptionally vulnerable to damage. I actually have a copy of "Adventures of the Road Runner" that Jon sent me, and though it's been traded around some I think Jerry was the original source. 'Tain't good...it was chopped up to make the two DePatie/Freleng TV shorts, so splices are evident and there is a lot of mold on it...or somesuch evidence of decay. I think the first step, before they do anything, is to look at what they have...like the recent discovery of the Blue Ribbons replacing the original cards altogether, for example. They can leave that card on there, but credits are a must...we do know the credits (at least directors) to most of them. Why don't they add in the credits on a new card, and keep the Blue Ribbon, on those they can't restore? And I'm sure there are some original theatrical copies out there somewhere, to use in places where the negatives won't help. There are collectors and old-time theater owners out there who I am sure have copies of the more popular titles on film. I don't know enough about the different types of film, but looking for the theatrical projection prints (were they 16mm?) ought to be at least a start in some cases. Also, in worst-case scenarios, have they ever tried perfecting the process used for Turner's "Dubbed versions"? I think a little digital wizardry would do those old ones a lot of good, from either negs or prints, if they brightened all of the colors at once and kept the original end cards( :mad: ) It's not true remastering, but it may be our only hope for a few. Think...there were over a thousand cartoons, right? What are the odds that the negatives for every one of those survive undecayed and unaltered? I'm not holding my breath...but I can't wait to see what they CAN do!
-Matthew

[Paul Penna]

Originally posted by Patrick McCart
Becky Sharp, the first Technicolor feature, has no original negative. It was restored from B&W by making synthesized color separations and then recombining them. The entire film was restored using just the magenta color record.

If anyone here has been fortunate enough to see the DVD's of Citizen Kane, North By Northwest, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, you'll notice how great the picture is. The company which restored those three films for video, Lowry Digital Images, has stated that they'll be ready for actual FILM restoration via digital systems.

"Becky Sharp" had a number of sections for which one or another of the three color records was missing, and which were acceptably synthesized from what remained. It's not actually possible to get a full color range from just one color record.

I should also point out that there have been a number of objections expressed about the "Citizen Kane" and "North by Northwest" DVDs, specifically that they appear overly smoothed out. It's said that in addition to dirt and scratches, the digital processes that were employed also removed textures, resulting in a kind of airbrushed look. Similar to the DVNRing of cartoons which remove ink lines. I've yet to watch my "Kane" DVD closely, so I can't verify these observations, but they come from otherwise credible voices.

[Jack]

I don't know if I like the idea of adding things that were never there in the first place (i.e. new credits or title art). How do we know all the credits (even those for directors) are correct, we're fortunate that Katnip Kollege's original title card artwork still exists, otherwise we wouldn't know who really directed it, and how many credits would get added? Just the ones put on the other cartoons at the time (i.e. Director, writer, one animator, and music director for late 30s/early 40s releases) or any credits that are known? And what about the musical score for such new titles?

I think some cartoons, like Katnip Kollege (if it was one of the earlier BRs made), could be restored if a print with at least a complete soundtract could be located and combined with elements used for the reissue print. They would just have to get permission from whomever own the title card art and refilm that. One place to look for good prints or title card artwork would be the Clampett estate, supposedly Clampett was quite the packrat, keeping cels, backgrounds, and other things of that nature.


Jack :D

[BlueAngelGal]

Originally posted by Jack

How would they do that, do you mean recreating the Blue Ribbon cards, or making up fake title cards?


Does this explain the odd new Blue Ribbon card on "Daffy Duck and Egghead," for example? It seems like if they must recreate, they could at least recreate both Blue Ribbon cards so they look the same.

[Patrick McCart]

The lost title cards could be reshot actually easily...depending on the cartoon.

Many cartoons in LT&MM: Illustrated Guide are without full credits. What could be done is to find as much information for the "no original titles anywhere" cartoons and put that on there.

For example, I Wanna Be A Sailor's original opening could be recreated..

The sheild and MM card could be taken from another cartoon. The production number would be digitally erased and replaced with the correct one.

The title card could be recreated from any surviving prints or elements. A new title card could be made to match those around that time (Probably in front of the blue rings) with as much credits that could be found. Even the card from I Wanna Be A Sailor could be recreated. It's very likely that the animators were Virgil Ross and Sid Sutherland, so it's just a matter of designing a new title card to look like the original.

It's been done before...

The opening titles to My Fair Lady had to be re-filmed due to the section where the credits were, were in awful condition. The restored versions of Rebecca and Notorious used original prints to show the correct opening logos and titles, but where heavily worn. All 3 of these sequences were cleaned up digitally and output back to film.

[Jack]

I suppose, but they would have to guess what cartoons didn't have the shield zoom and what ones did, and they would have to just assume the titles were set against the blue rings (some had unique titles and others didn't all the way through 1939). Then there were the occasional "character in" graphics used in some cartoons, as well as special ending that didn't have the concentric circles.

When they refilmed that section of titles for "My Fair Lady," did they at least know what the original portion looked like, or is possible the end result is completely different from the original?


jack :D

[Patrick McCart]

It's pretty much the same.

Here's an example of a re-created title card for "I Wanna Be A Sailor"...http://pmccart.freewebspace.com/recreatediwannabeasailer.jpg

The curve isn't perfect, but it's a good example of how lost title art could be re-created.

[Jack]

That's a nice recreation there, Patrick. I suppose that would work on the BRs where the title was set against the blue rings (At least four MMs released that year had special title card artwork).

Hopefully they won't have to do things like that. If they do have a variety of vintage elements and original theatrical prints, then everything might balance out. We have roughly 170 BRs without title cards to worry about.


Jack :D

[J Lee]

Just to be nitpicky on an issue I can't confirm one way or the other, but judging by the ending theme music on "I Want to Be a Sailor" the cartoon was probably the one where the new orange/yellow rings and opening redesigned Merrie Melodies title graphic that were used for the 1937-38 season debuted.

But the nearest non-BR cartoon after it, Frank Tashlin's "The Woods are Full of Coocoos" does put its opening titles over the concentric circles so while the color may be wrong, the general appaearance of the original title card may be correct.

[Sogturtle]

Originally posted by Patrick McCart
It's pretty much the same.

Here's an example of a re-created title card for "I Wanna Be A Sailor"...http://pmccart.freewebspace.com/recreatediwannabeasailer.jpg

The curve isn't perfect, but it's a good example of how lost title art could be re-created.

Patrick~

My sincere compliments to you on your re-created title card for "I Wanna Be A Sailor". It's very nice... Now the bad news (I'm sorry!). This cartoon ("I Wanna Be A Sailor") is one of the handful of Schlesinger/Warner cartoons that failed to be copyrighted, thus no listing in the copyright catalog till as a credit-less Blue Ribbon years later (1949!!) . Buuuuut it gets far, far worse. Figuring out credits via rotation works very often... But almost certainly not on this cartoon. WHY?? Because it came out just as Schlesinger went from listing TWO animators to listing ONE animator and one storyman (maybe that's why it wasn't copyrighted, that they didn't know what to put on the forms). In fact it may well be the first such cartoon (or be the last to list two animators). It gets even worse... Avery's last cartoon (Porky's Garden) before this listed Sid Sutherland and Elmer Wait animators. His next cartoon (Little Red Walking Hood) after it listed Irven Spence as animator and Cal Howard as storyman... Chuck Jones and Bob Clampett and Bob Cannon had been pulled and sent to the Iwerks outfit and were replaced by long-timer Paul Smith and newbie Irven Spence (giving credit to the newly arrived Spence would not be repeated for others). In fact they had already been credited together on "Egghead Rides Again". Soooo then it sounds like Paul Smith should get an animation credit here again, right??? Problem... Bob Clampett claimed this as the last Avery cartoon that he animated on (despite being out of the Tex unit for several months already). Iffffff true then it's a holdover cartoon, and would also mean that Chuck Jones AND Bob Cannon animated on it as well. For those who can pick out animators styles then this is THE CARTOON par excellance to do it on!!! We can be sure that Virgil Ross, Sid Sutherland, and Elmer Wait animated on it. We can quarrel about whether Irv Spence and Paul Smith are on it or whether Clampett, Jones and Cannon are!!! Orrrr that ALL of them worked on it!!! Let's see that would make the animation credits (and un-credits ;)) read:
Animation:
Paul Smith
Irven Spence
Virgil Ross
Sid Sutherland
Elmer Wait
Bob Clampett
Charles Jones
Bob Cannon

[Patrick McCart]

Perhaps for disputed and unconfirmed credits, the credit could just have the director and musical director, and leave the animation credit to "Warner Animation Dept."

[J Lee]

Perhaps for disputed and unconfirmed credits, the credit could just have the director and musical director, and leave the animation credit to "Warner Animation Dept."

Hey, Paramount actually did that for the first made-for-TV Popeye cartoon -- only Seymour Kneitel was credited as director, and the rest of the staff was credited as "Paramount Animation Studio." Going by the attitude Shamus Culhane said N.Y. Cartoonist Union boss Pepe Ruiz had towards the studios, I'm surprise he didn't shut down the whole King Features Popeye series over this one. ;)

[Pilmedium]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
Bob Clampett
Chuck Jones

If they were animators for that cartoon, that would make it look definitely incorrect. Did the Warner studio generally use nicknames in the 1930s?

[J Lee]

As a matter of fact, until late 1937, yes. Tashlin got to be called "Frank Tash" in his first handful or cartoons, Robert Clampett was "Bob" Clampett and Robert McKimson was "Bob" McKimson on some of the shorts they anaimated between 1933-37, and while Jones never got to be called "Chuck" he was just plain "Charles Jones" instead of "Charles M. Jones" before Leon got formal with his credits.

[Larry T]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
Let's see that would make the animation credits (and un-credits ;)) read:
Animation:
Paul Smith
Irven Spence
Virgil Ross
Sid Sutherland
Elmer Wait
Bob Clampett
Chuck Jones
Bob Cannon[/COLOR] [/FONT] [/B] [/SIZE] [/B]

Well, Soggy, I took a look at that cartoon recently and you remember that one specific animator I was seeking info about? Well, his artwork is IN THAT CARTOON.... Which leads me to believe it MUST be Irv Spence (with repect to all the other factors we previously discussed). The scenes I refer to include the first one when the mother parrot is recounting her home life and her drunken husband is sitting at the table, plus the one where the little parrot raises the flag up the pole. This would seem to be a less refined Spence than the one we recognize at MGM, but the character quality and animation timing are there.

Didn't see any Jones animation in there- his early artwork tends to resemble the style he displayed in his cartoons (see "Injun Trouble" for this- the scene where Sloppy Moe pulls Porky's Coonskin cap down over his body, for one example). I also didn't notice Bob Cannon anywhere in there- that's all I know for now :cool: ...

[Sogturtle]

Re: Giving credit where credit is due ;o)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sogturtle

Let's see that would make the animation credits (and un-credits ) read:
Animation:
Paul Smith
Irven Spence
Virgil Ross
Sid Sutherland
Elmer Wait
Bob Clampett
Chuck Jones
Bob Cannon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by Larry T


Well, Soggy, I took a look at that cartoon recently and you remember that one specific animator I was seeking info about? Well, his artwork is IN THAT CARTOON.... Which leads me to believe it MUST be Irv Spence (with repect to all the other factors we previously discussed). The scenes I refer to include the first one when the mother parrot is recounting her home life and her drunken husband is sitting at the table, plus the one where the little parrot raises the flag up the pole. This would seem to be a less refined Spence than the one we recognize at MGM, but the character quality and animation timing are there.

Didn't see any Jones animation in there- his early artwork tends to resemble the style he displayed in his cartoons (see "Injun Trouble" for this- the scene where Sloppy Moe pulls Porky's Coonskin cap down over his body, for one example). I also didn't notice Bob Cannon anywhere in there- that's all I know for now :cool: ...


Larry~

Excellent work!! As I said before it was Bob Clampett's CLAIM that he had animated on "I Wanna Be A Sailor". Ifffff there is truth to that claim then my hunch would be that the amount of animation done by Clampett, Jones, and Cannon on it would have been so slight as to be utterly invisible (i.e. maybe as little as one days worth each, so maybe in the realm of 5-7 feet each). And the cartoon may have hung unfinished till Irv Spence was hired and he and Paul Smith assigned to Tex's unit (which would explain the big gap till its release).

As for Spence's Warner work you were likely dead-on-the-money before in stating that it disappeared before 1940. Spence would remember in the '90's that he was only a part of the Avery unit in 1937... But the last time his name appears on a Warner credit was in May 1938, and with their tendency to immediately drop a departed animator's name out of the rotation the odds are very high that his last actual Warner animation is in the very last part of '38 (I suspect you've seen some there...).

Hey!!! Wanna start workin' on the Iwerks toons next for more Spence work??? Huh, huh, huh???

[Larry T]

Originally posted by Sogturtle
Ifffff there is truth to that claim then my hunch would be that the amount of animation done by Clampett, Jones, and Cannon on it would have been so slight as to be utterly invisible (i.e. maybe as little as one days worth each, so maybe in the realm of 5-7 feet each). And the cartoon may have hung unfinished till Irv Spence was hired and he and Paul Smith assigned to Tex's unit (which would explain the big gap till its release).

You know, that's possible- While watching it I had the scrutinous animation eye open and I noticed a couple of occasions where I said to myself, "Hmm- okay, that scene is yet a different animator..." but never saw another one that followed it up in similar style. So at the end of it I was thinking that there was a few kind of throwaway scenes which looked like random contributions to the cartoon, much like an Ani-jam release. As for Cannon, I'd bet my nickels that he had NO animation in there at all- I could identify his artwork from a single drawing if I had to ;) -

I would need some of the Iwerks cartoons to be able to start deciphering them- I've seen a lot of them, but just didn't bother collecting any. Oh well, maybe in due time-