John Stewart GL: Tokensim? No.

[MattL.]

I really wish people would quit refering to the use of John Stewart as "tokenism" just because their boy Hal or Kyle didnt get in.

First of all, having the JL not be totally white bread isn't a bad thing. Also, in order to accomplish this theres a billion and one stupid things they could've done that would've been tokenism. Superman didn't become Asian. Hawkgirl isn't Hindu. Wonder Woman isn't a Korean lesbian who votes for Pat Buchannon.

Heres one for you. Tokenism? Try this on. Hal Jordan gets changed to being a black guy from the south or Kyle gets turned to a handicapped girl to meet that demographic?

Using John Stewart doesnt seem so stupidly "PC" now does it?

Also, here you have a character who just as much as Hal or Kyle ****is from the comics themselves*** and ***has been a Green Lantern in those comics.*** Doing what they do best, they took what was good about the character and cut away the crap and gave him a neat look.

and in the process we get a black guy with a cool personality, and gets to be one of the big names with the big powers fighting equally along side guys like Superman and Batman instead of being relegated to being Brother Voodoo or "I hate whitey" superhero no.15,890,000. *coughcoughMuhammad Xcoughcough*

Whats not to like? A black guy who was black and a Green Lantern in the comics gets to be black and a Green Lantern in the animation.

John Stewart tokenism? I really dont think so. Just to add a point here, before the series art came out I would have been the first person in charge of the "They Should use the Hal/Kyle hybrid!" club, but when I saw the visual and what they were doing with the character I changed my mind. Once I saw the pilot, I was proven nothing but right and now TAS John Stewart is my favorite Green Lantern version.

and this is coming from a blond haired blue eyed white guy.

Is it "PC" that won me over to it? No. He was just that damn cool. The fact that he was a black guy in the role of an iconic mantle like the Green Lantern was just an extra point of intrest.

Of course if there *is* a little kid who watches the show and looks at John Stewart and thinks "hey, he looks like me" and is filled with dreams of battling along side the other heroes of the JL then more power to it.

John Stewart isn't tokenism. Turning Nick Fury black. **THAT** is tokenism. Despite what Mr. Authority Mark Milar might tell you. :rolleyes:

[JohnStewart-GL]

Im glad someone thinks like me. John is a no nonsince badass and thats what i likeabout him.(and the same goes for Batman)

[The Green Hornet]

i love john

much moreso than kyle

but hal hold a special place in my heart with barry as a great team

[William C. Maune]

[indent]I had been thinking about this recently also. Personnally, I think John Stewart fits in well with the mix of the other Justice League characters. Kyle wouldn't have fit nearly as well because we already have The Flash to fill the younger guy learning the ropes kind of role.

[Batman 80]

Good points MattL.

[The Dark Knight]

Originally posted by AFXanatos
Kyle wouldn't have fit nearly as well because we already have The Flash to fill the younger guy learning the ropes kind of role.
This argument really bothers me. I often hear that we don't need Kyle because we have the Flash. Did I miss something? I've yet to see a member of the JL giving the Flash pointers because he's the new guy (I did miss the Brave and the Bold so I may be wrong), and Kyle never did the type of jokes the Flash is famous for, so how are they the same? Besides, Batman already fills the role of serious member, so why do we need John? I prefer Kyle. Why? Because I'm a creative person and can relate more to someone who uses the ring in a way that just seems natural to me. It has nothing to do with race.

[William C. Maune]

"I've yet to see a member of the JL giving the Flash pointers because he's the new guy (I did miss the Brave and the Bold so I may be wrong)"

[indent]Definitely check out The Brave and the Bold the next time it comes on, it does a lot to dig into Flash's character. They may not have done much with that aspect before now, but they can only do so much with 7 characters in half a season. Kyle may have brought something unique to the group also, but I guess my main point is John Stewart fits in great character wise also. Finally, while Batman is serious, he chooses to take more of a reserved, background role than John Stewart, or any of the rest of the League.

[whitmore_sean]

I've gotta disagree. I like the animated John, the no-nonsense military guy, and I liked the comics John, the humorous, slightly arrogant GL. But the decision to use him as opposed to any of the other GLs (as opposed to the CURRENT one, for pete's sake) is because they wanted a non-white guy on the team. (J'onn apparently doesn't count)

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that's the only logical answer. He's not the current GL (Kyle), the first GL (Alan Scott), the "best" GL (Hal), or the worst GL (Guy Gardner). So why use him if not to say, "look the team's not all-white"? It's understandable, I mean, the team's classic roster IS and for the most part always has been all-white (a by-product of being created in the 60's).

I think the better question is why HawkGIRL instead of HawkMAN?



SEAN

[GL2k2]

I have to agree with MattL, John Stewart definitely isn't the "token" some of you are thinking. He is a good character, he is also straight from the comics and not made up for the show. He isn't a Native American that can become a giant. He isn't a black guy named "Black" anything. He is a green lantern member with a history on the team. They pretty much abandoned Hal Jordan with them turning him into Parallax and now the Spectre. But it just goes to show, when you're in the military you are expendable. Ca- Ca happens.

I do not agree with turning characters into something they are not. Like that pile of vomit, Wild Wild West film. I hate that movie for two reasons, it made black people look bad. To me it was affirmative action working in all the wrong ways. I give a damn if Captain Kirk is getting old, if I see Billy Dee Williams portraying him, I'm going to be pissed. And it won't be a race thing, it will be because he ain't Captain Kirk. Just like Will Smith was not Jim West. And Jim West was not a slave. They could of saved that for a blaxploitation copycat of Wild Wild West like they're doing with Indiana Jones, which I still don't agree with. Leave that crap for the video shelves and have respect for the people who made their creations.

It would be pretty sad if we saw a Jewish Shaft. And then it would be called rascist on top of that. Tokenism is one thing, but twisting originality for PC is not right.

[The Green Hornet]

i like this conversation, but please be careful not to stray outside of the boundaries of the thread-- whether or not John is "token"

lets leave affirmitive action out of it please

[The Flash]

I (and probably every other modie) am keeping a close eye on this thread. It's already boarder line rule breaking, so nobody step out of line and say anything stupid that will start a flame war. ;)

[Wumbo]

lets not forget the main issue here. we have a great JL show with
characters that are not just made up to meet some demograph.
whether you think Hal, Kyle, Guy, Kilowog, or John is the best GL
lets just be happy that we have this show to talk about. by the
way, i think they are doing a great job and John is turning out to
be a great character.

--Wumbo-- :)

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm glad they went with John, also. It just stetches creditablity that a group of heros selected from the entire world would be entirly white. But the real reason I like him is actually that he doesn't make contructs like giant first and whatever. But I have the impression that's a opinion not shared by most.


J'onn apparently doesn't count

I don't really understand why he would count (towards diversity). I mean, he's not even human (and doesn't look it), so he doesn't really "represent" anyone.

[whitmore_sean]

I'm glad they went with John, also. It just stetches creditablity that a group of heros selected from the entire world would be entirly white.


But that's just the point. In the comics, credible or not, they WERE all white. So the cartoon people chose John Stewart JUST to have a black guy. It's not a bad thing, per se, but that pretty much IS the definition of tokenism.



But the real reason I like him is actually that he doesn't make contructs like giant first and whatever. But I have the impression that's a opinion not shared by most.


I wouldn't mind if the reason John didn't do the fancy constructs was because he didn't want to, like he thought they were silly or something. But I sorta have the feeling that's it's just the animators/storyboarders being lazy.




SEAN
"Everybody needs money. That's why they call it money!"

[Harvey Dent]

Timm wasn't kidding when he said this selection would cause controversy.

Me? I really don't care. So John is the Green Lantern on this show. So what? He's never been on TV before, so consider this his 15 minutes of fame. My only complaint against him is his lack of imagination when it comes to ring constructs, but I chalk that up to the low budget. I mean, he created some type of clamp when he was towing that spacecraft in an issue of the JL Adventures, so he does do more than create lasers and bubbles. Hell, he even made a small battering ram in "The Enemy Below", so there is hope for him yet.

If there is one thing I take issue with, it's the absence of "America" in Justice League. America is supposed to represent the beliefs and ideas that the team is fighting for, and 4 of the 7 members are US citizens, so why not call it the JLA?

[The Green Hornet]

whos the fourth?

i doubt superman ever filed for citizenship-- which makes me wonder if he votes? if so its fraud ;)

[Joe Wagner]

Superman is an American citizen by way of Clark Kent - mainly because of the Kents citizenship when he was adopted - altho I wonder if Clark could get a dual citizenship card, one for the USA and one for Krypton? :p

-Joe!

[xbuilder]

Originally posted by JohnStewart-GL
Im glad someone thinks like me. John is a no nonsince badass and thats what i likeabout him.(and the same goes for Batman)

I'm Black and I have to say....He's a Token, A good character but a Token.


I keep half expecting Samurai and Apache Cheif to show up soon so its all good.

[The Green Hornet]

clark was never adopted

they just took him in

no papers etc

[The Dark Knight]

I still don't understand why Timm and Co. just decided to go with John. Did they really get tired of Kyle that quickly?

Clark has to be a citizen, or at least a resident, of the U.S., but I'm not really sure how he did it. In Smallville his parents faked adoption papers and such, but in the comic book and animated series I have no idea.

[ZorBrak]

GUYS YOUR ARGUING AGAINST THE DEV. TEAM'S OWN WORDS! The JL dev team has STATED in interviews he was put in becuase the team was all white and "that just wouldn't be right". Did anyone EVER say he wasn't a really cool character? NO. The ONLY reason people are angry is becuase they threw him in and expect GL fans not to care about what happened. I know the show is good. I know the character is good. That doesn't mean I have to shut up becuase I WILL NOT SHUT UP. I am angry over the issue and you have no right to tell me I'm wrong. Personally I PREFER John becuase of his attitude and style BUT I also really liked Kyle and I want a story explaining his disappearence, not some stupid non-story related PC reason. Are you actually going to tell me if they suddenly had Hawkman instead of Hawkgirl in the second season it wouldn't anger you? or how about if they changed from Wally West to Barry Allen and felt they shouldn't have to explain it? NORMALLY they wouldn't just up and switch characters like that, but they did for GL and it's not right to do so without AT LEAST a back story. The powers that be at WB decided diversity and political correctness are more important than our 10 year old continuity, thats the story they have given us so far and its absurd.

[ZorBrak]

Originally posted by Harvey Dent
Timm wasn't kidding when he said this selection would cause controversy.

Me? I really don't care. So John is the Green Lantern on this show. So what? He's never been on TV before, so consider this his 15 minutes of fame. My only complaint against him is his lack of imagination when it comes to ring constructs, but I chalk that up to the low budget. I mean, he created some type of clamp when he was towing that spacecraft in an issue of the JL Adventures, so he does do more than create lasers and bubbles. Hell, he even made a small battering ram in "The Enemy Below", so there is hope for him yet.

If there is one thing I take issue with, it's the absence of "America" in Justice League. America is supposed to represent the beliefs and ideas that the team is fighting for, and 4 of the 7 members are US citizens, so why not call it the JLA?


Once again the America was taken out so someone little person somewhere isn't offneded. WB is more PC aware than some of you want to relaize. the show is still good but it's so PC.

[The Flash]

Sorry, gang. I'm gunna close this. I don't like where it is going. :)