Is the JL team underestimating fans when it comes to continuity?? [Archive]

DerekPowers

03-11-2002, 02:32 PM

in almost every interview i read w/ timm or a member of the jl creative team (including the interview on the news page about season 2), whenever continuity comes up, they always say (among things) that not all people who watch jl are going to be aware of the happenings in btas/stas/nbsa/bb.

well, i dont think that is so. ive been surprised to see just how many people regularly watched batman/superman. whenever i watch jl there always seems to be a lot of people around, and they'll all comment on how they always watched batman and how they always hoped itd be a batman ep and not a superman one cause batman is darker and cooler. things to that extent. and everyone always says stuff like superman is the man and things l ike that. And i keep getting surprised to find a few hard core fans like me, more than i expected.

my point is is that anyone who grew up in the 90s has seen these shows. theyre classics, its part of our generation. they were always on. most people have seen them and liked ithem and seen alot of them.

now how does this have anything to do w/ continuity? simple. while many of the fans may not remember specific continuity issues that us fans want to be dealt w/ on the show, they remember some things, and if theyve seen eps like legacy or really hot awesome eps, they remember them vaguely. and many people remember a different green lantern, i always get that when im watching JL "wasnt there a different green lantern in superman". how could you forget that ep, especially if it was your first real introduction to GL.

but more importantly, THEY KNOW that there is a whole history behind JL in the form of BTAS, TNBA, & STAS. No one ive ever introduced to JL has questioned wheter the batman and superman characters are the ones from the old shows, and theyll even bring up specific happenings from the old shows (that dont necessarily have anything to do w/ continuity, but they still bring them up.) So they know theres things that they may not be fully aware of in JL. Im not saying have whole detailed eps dealing w/ things only hard core fans would appreciate, BUT, TIMM AND CO. SHOULDNT BE WORRIED ABOUT ADDING ALITTLE CONTINUITY HERE AND THERE, BECAUSE THE HARDCORE FANS WILL GET IT, AND THE FANS WHO MAY NOT REMEMBER HOW IT APPLIES TO THE OLD SERIESE WILL EITHER:

1. not even notice the reference was in there

2. Maybe think its referencing a JL ep they missed---or---

3. Understand its a reference to one of the old shows that they may have forgotten, which i think will give them a greater respect for the show, because EVERYONE respects those old shows, timm needs to understand this more. THEY ARE CLASSICS, everyone in their late teens/early 20s has seen those shows after school and i think (simply cause they were awesome) loved them.

so i feel that they should stop it with the whole "some fans arent aware of the continuity" already, BECAUSE FANS ARE AWARE, EVEN NON-HARDCORE FANS. putting alittle contiuity/references to the old shows in JL here and there will be greatly apprieciated by both hardcore fans and regular jl fans. for the regular fans, itll probably roll over their heads or just not effect them, but for us itll mean more. putting in continuity could only make JL better, AND it may even cause a few regular JL fans to make it a point to rewatch the old series when they air on CN to enhance their JL viewing experience. peace.

Supernovametalstar

03-11-2002, 02:49 PM

I couldn't read the whole post, but I think I know where you're coming from. But I also understand the writers perspective. They want to focus on introducing us to the characters first, and trying to cover a lot of old ground from previous tv series or the expansive comics would bore the ones that know all of the history, and roll off the heads of those that don't. For me, since I don't read comics, the characters popping up in JL are foreign to me, so I'm glad that they are starting from a near beginning point and not getting bogged down with backstory.

ZorBrak

03-11-2002, 02:59 PM

I understand where your coming from too, and I agree, I also understand the writers BUT think they don't go far enough to make continuity fit, the "who's the newbie?" comment about Wonder Woman (found in secret origins) was a bit anoying considering in one of the Superman episodes Lois Lane says "Yeah and I'm wonder woman"

BeastBoyWonder

03-11-2002, 04:45 PM

I'm in high school, and most of my friends watched BTAS as kids.

Gpoliceman

03-11-2002, 05:17 PM

This is the same problem I have with the live action Batman movies. Like you said, in every interview Bruce Timm and Co mention that the JL show doesn't stick to continuity all that much because it's possible that people who are watching the show never saw BTAS or STAS or TNAB or BB.

First, I ask where are they getting this information? I want to know if they are running polls or something asking people who watch JL if they missed all the other animated Batman/Superman shows, cause I'm not sure if I believe it. Even if it's true, I don't think the fraction of people who've seen the other shows and those who have not are split down the middle

I would say at least 80% of those who watch JL saw some or all of the other animated series.

I just dont buy that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people flocked to watch JL but have no idea what Batman: The Animated Series is.

I just dont buy it. It occurs to me that the only people who would have ever heard about the new JL series back when it premiered in November are those who had been waiting for it to arrive ever since BB was cancelled.

I think its ridiculous.

This is my problem with the live action movies.

The last two Batman films, hell, even the first two, took into the account that people who were not Batman fans were watching the film, and with Batman & Robin they went overboard with that.

Here's what I think: Every person in this country knows SOMETHING about Batman. Everybody knows he's the night while Superman is the day. Everybody knows at least two Batman villains.

I did a presentation in my biology class only about 4 months ago, and it included many of Batman's rouge galleries. People who you would look at and would never think to know anything about Batman knew at least five of his villains. They even knew Harley Quinn who was only created into existence a few years ago.

I think people who write comic book movies, and the studio executives who greenlight them, TOTALLY UNDER-ESTIMATE how much people know about the pop culture of comic books.

That's why Two-Face was NOTHING like how Two-Face should have been

That's why Mr. Freeze was a joke

That's why Bane was pathetic

That's why Batman was portrayed totally wrong.

That's why the studios are now going ahead with Batman: Year One.

With the failure of the last film they realized that people, even the non-comicbook reader, knows SOMETHING about Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and every other superhero just about, both DC and Marvel.

Everytime I hear someone behind the next Batman film or anything comic book related say: "Well, we can't stick to Batman's REAL story that much cause there's billions of people who don't think Batman is suppose to be dark and scary" I want to freaking puke.

If I ran the world, the next Batman movie would be created solely for the fans, and how much do you want to bet it would be the most successful and critically acclaimed Batman film to date?

The reason the writing starts to suck is because they change the story for the non-fan.

Beyond Batman

03-11-2002, 08:24 PM

For those of you who complain about tons of continuity in comic books...

I can't stress this enough! You don't HAVE to buy a library full of comics to get what's going on. All it takes is a hand full of comic books and trades (considering the most impacting story arcs are usually available in TPB form) and a little inquisitive questions, and BAM... you're caught up with continuity.

I find that most people who are reluctant to pick up mainstream books such as Batman, Superman, JLA, etc. are too often intimidated by the time it takes to simply read. This isn't a hypothesis, it's an actual conclusion I've drawn from speaking to many people. Of course you combine this with no income, no resources (comic stores), or simply hating comics to begin with... and you're stuck with what Timm feeds you. Variety is a blessing... I encourage you all to take advantage of it. Pick up a comic book and see how it compares to the animated series. It'll open up a whole new world of perspective.

I think DerekPowers brings up a good point. Why is Timm undermining our intuitiveness when it comes to continuity. I understand they want to introduce characters to us as if we've never heard of them before, starting on a clean slate, but c'mon! We're not that naive.

Toying around with continuity can be seen as an artistic perspective, but it can also be seen as a way to "cop-out" and take the easy road. Overlooking little details robs each character of their uniqueness and diminishes thier sense of credibility... and not being consistant just adds more confusion to fans and non-fans.

However, I'm not completely displeased with the show. There's still more to come, and I've liked what I've seen thus far. I only hope it improves. From watching The Brave and the Bold, things seem to be looking up.

BlackTerror

03-11-2002, 09:00 PM

Just for the record, I actually am one of those JL fans who hasn't seen many Superman episodes and only the first few seasons of Bats. ;) So any references to old episodes would actually go over my head. Of course, that wouldn't really bother me or anything...and I am actually surprised to hear that the continuity between the shows doesn't match up. It seems only natural they would. Besides that's the kind of stuff that would make people wanna go back and watch older episodes. And considering CN owns and plays em all...doesn't seem like that would be a bad thing.

Primarily a comic fan, I would have preferred a little more continuity with the mags myself. So far every character is fairly off (Wally has Barry's origin, Mars was destroyed by blobs of some sort not, Hawkgirl is different from anything seen in the comics at any time, Wonder Woman's a newbie (?), etc). Again, that doesn't really bother me a great deal either, although I think it makes it harder for people to branch off from the show to the comics. The DCU has a rich history which is why there's a lot 'hardcore fanboys' that get into all the details. The show should be able to tapping into some of that and I don't understand why it wouldn't want to... (The rumor that the JSA has been replaced by some made-up superheroes for a future JL episode is an example of blatantly and pointlessly ignoring the comics. Just plain silly if true)

ZorBrak

03-11-2002, 09:22 PM

As much as I like their works....It seems that I grow increasingly angry at the JL development team when I read interviews and they happily announce they won't acknowledge what happened to Kyle Raynor and so forth and we fans WANT CONTINUITY! Its not that hard for new fans to catch up and old fans deserve that much!

DerekPowers

03-12-2002, 05:29 PM

seriously man, i totally agree. its not that hard to catch up, hell, its not neuroscience, its cartoons. they should embrace continuity and realize those who may not know what continuity is crossing over from the old shows STILL KNOW THERE IS CONTINUITY and understand that they may have missed something because they missed an old show. its not a big deal, i think that would make people want to revisit the old shows.

and the continuity in the animated series is fairly simple, so no one, not even people who may have only seen one or two eps of btas, will be completely lost and in the dark, its not like that.

the main reason i love the dc animated universe has alot to do w/ the character development and continuity that can only arise over years of shows, and it is a VERY STRONG aspect of these shows that should be embraced.

DisneyBoy

03-12-2002, 06:10 PM

I think a few more nodds to B:TAS and S:TAS couldn't hurt at all! After all, wouldn't that just drum up more support and interest towards releasing the series to DVD?

JusticeLeagueLegion

03-12-2002, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
in almost every interview i read w/ timm or a member of the jl creative team (including the interview on the news page about season 2), whenever continuity comes up, they always say (among things) that not all people who watch jl are going to be aware of the happenings in btas/stas/nbsa/bb.

well, i dont think that is so. ive been surprised to see just how many people regularly watched batman/superman. whenever i watch jl there always seems to be a lot of people around, and they'll all comment on how they always watched batman and how they always hoped itd be a batman ep and not a superman one cause batman is darker and cooler. things to that extent. and everyone always says stuff like superman is the man and things l ike that. And i keep getting surprised to find a few hard core fans like me, more than i expected.

my point is is that anyone who grew up in the 90s has seen these shows. theyre classics, its part of our generation. they were always on. most people have seen them and liked ithem and seen alot of them.

now how does this have anything to do w/ continuity? simple. while many of the fans may not remember specific continuity issues that us fans want to be dealt w/ on the show, they remember some things, and if theyve seen eps like legacy or really hot awesome eps, they remember them vaguely. and many people remember a different green lantern, i always get that when im watching JL "wasnt there a different green lantern in superman". how could you forget that ep, especially if it was your first real introduction to GL.

but more importantly, THEY KNOW that there is a whole history behind JL in the form of BTAS, TNBA, & STAS. No one ive ever introduced to JL has questioned wheter the batman and superman characters are the ones from the old shows, and theyll even bring up specific happenings from the old shows (that dont necessarily have anything to do w/ continuity, but they still bring them up.) So they know theres things that they may not be fully aware of in JL. Im not saying have whole detailed eps dealing w/ things only hard core fans would appreciate, BUT, TIMM AND CO. SHOULDNT BE WORRIED ABOUT ADDING ALITTLE CONTINUITY HERE AND THERE, BECAUSE THE HARDCORE FANS WILL GET IT, AND THE FANS WHO MAY NOT REMEMBER HOW IT APPLIES TO THE OLD SERIESE WILL EITHER:

1. not even notice the reference was in there

2. Maybe think its referencing a JL ep they missed---or---

3. Understand its a reference to one of the old shows that they may have forgotten, which i think will give them a greater respect for the show, because EVERYONE respects those old shows, timm needs to understand this more. THEY ARE CLASSICS, everyone in their late teens/early 20s has seen those shows after school and i think (simply cause they were awesome) loved them.

so i feel that they should stop it with the whole "some fans arent aware of the continuity" already, BECAUSE FANS ARE AWARE, EVEN NON-HARDCORE FANS. putting alittle contiuity/references to the old shows in JL here and there will be greatly apprieciated by both hardcore fans and regular jl fans. for the regular fans, itll probably roll over their heads or just not effect them, but for us itll mean more. putting in continuity could only make JL better, AND it may even cause a few regular JL fans to make it a point to rewatch the old series when they air on CN to enhance their JL viewing experience. peace.

I see your point, and I completly aggree...I couldn't care less if regular fans didn't get it...but I grew up watching Batman: The Animated Series, the Superman and all the rest...I even watched the Superman 1988 series when I was in grade school. (Not that that's in continuity with the new shows) I heard that Star Trek: Nemesis was going to have little references to older shows that only harcore Trekkers would understand...since I am a Trekker, I can really appreciate that. Who cares if no one knows what there talking about...people miss shows anyway!

jm5150bc

03-12-2002, 07:07 PM

Let me start this off by saying that I am 36 years old, LOVED all of these animated series, much more so than their comics book counterparts. B:TAS was Batman the way he should be done... PERIOD. These series were handled by people (Timm, Dini, Radomski, etc.) who CLEARLY loved and respected the source material, but never really slaved to continuity. They came up with fresh origins for many of the core villains that were different and most often better than the original versions, and with Batman and Superman, took the best parts of their histories and made them amalgams of different versions of their comic book counterparts to make them what I consider to be THE definitive versions of the characters.

They never worried necessarily about what was going on in the books, they concentrated on telling great half-hour stories. Let's face it- they took care of Bane in 22 minutes !! The comic book concept of Bane wearing Batman down over how-ever-many-issues so that he could "Break" him when he was completely depleted didn't make for such a great villain in my opinion, and obviously Timm & co. agreed.

It may be argued that the series have a continuity of their own, but, to me at least, it never really seemed like an issue. Very rarely was an event in the "past" brought up in a "future" episode (and yes, I have every last one of them on tape), and that happened with Superman probably more than Batman.
I just think that they were more concerned with telling great stories than with worrying what happened in any previous episode.

Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't have been upset if Dan Turpin was brought back to life mysteriously after his death in "Apokolips Now", but other than a ridiculous thing like that, I'm not really all that concerned about "continuity". I'd rather just see great, well-thought-out stories that don't turn the characters into caricatures of themselves (like every single one of the live-action Batman films !!) "The Enemy Below" and "Paradise Lost" showed us the real promise of this JL series so far, but I's still waiting for that really great story that's gonna blow ALL of us away... and you know what ?... I have confidence in Timm's team to deliver just that down the road. Their track record is pretty darn good...

Memphis Bleek

03-12-2002, 08:23 PM

I'm fan of the JL and I've not seen all of the episodes of BTAS and STAS. I don't want to have go back and watch all the btas and stas episodes just so I can watch Jl. I have no problem with continuity but don't start putting in obscure references from btas and stas in the show. It really does bug me that John Stewart is Gl. If they don't explain where Kyle I won't whine. I'll just accept the fact.

Beyond Batman

03-13-2002, 12:43 AM

"They never worried necessarily about what was going on in the books, they concentrated on telling great half-hour stories. Let's face it- they took care of Bane in 22 minutes !! The comic book concept of Bane wearing Batman down over how-ever-many-issues so that he could "Break" him when he was completely depleted didn't make for such a great villain in my opinion, and obviously Timm & co. agreed." - jm5150bc

jm5150bc, I'm sure you realize that Knightfall was a storyarc that was a major turning point for Batman. Bottom line, that was the first time Batman failed at anything. Are you telling me that you'd want to see Batman proved falable, within a handful of issues (say three or four issues)? I think that would completely discredit Batman's integrity as a person who has perfected his physical, intellectual, and psychological attributes.. Showing how easily Batman would fail... it'd take more than twenty-two minutes, and it'd better take something powerfully strong and cunning to stop the Batman. Bane in BTAS was only an introduction to the character. They didn't show him breaking Batman's back. I'm curious jm5150bc, what Batman comic books do you read?

Why is it such a problem for some people to accept continuity? Is it laziness? I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I often find people saying that because they don't want to bother and look back, they don't want to take the time to ask questions and read/see them for themselves. Rather, they just want it NOW. If you were a fan, I'm sure the time and effort to search for an answer would be worth it. Heck, you may even appreciate the character a little bit more.

Also, it doesn't take a genius to look back and see the continuity references. They're not hidden in Batman's secret file cabinet. Another thing, because there are subtle continuity references in a story, would that make you hate the episode completely? I don't think so. Maybe it would make you put on your "thinking caps" and question why Timm put it there.

Adding continuity references only makes the characters stronger and adds more characterization. It's like setting a foundation for a character, being able to apply each characters scenerios in other aspects and knowing why.

Dark Knight

03-13-2002, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
\ and the continuity in the animated series is fairly simple, so no one, not even people who may have only seen one or two eps of btas, will be completely lost and in the dark, its not like that.

That sums it up beatufully. There isn't anything from the previous shows that needs to be explored that can't be explained and understood by a brief monologue from one of the characters.

For Example (and please excuse my horrible dialogue im making it painfully simple to show how easy it is to fill in newbies):

Wonder Woman: It seems to me that Superman and Darkseid have some kind of history.
Batman: You're right, Diana. A few years ago he took control of Superman's mind and forced him to lead an attack on Earth. It took him a long time to regain the planet's trust.

or even...

Flash: Hey Green Lantern didn't you used to be white?
Green Lantern: No that was Kyle Rayner. He was Green Lantern of this sector before me. But he mysteriously vanished and now we have to find him.

or maybe...

Green Lantern: That was Kyle Rayner. He was Green Lantern of this sector before me, but was transferred to another part of the Galaxy and now we have to team up with him to stop Sinestro, a former Member of the Lanter Corps turned rogue.

...are any newbies lost on those things? See how quickly they can be addressed and people be brought up to speed on things? It opens up so many new doors for cool story lines

Squall

03-13-2002, 06:09 AM

I think that all four TV shows should be a package deal. They should work together as one giant storyline, with continuity, like this, in chronological order:

Batman: The Animated Series --> The Batman/Superman Adventures --> Justice League --> Batman Beyond

At this point, the only issue I see that can't be easily resolved is Batman Beyond, "Return of the Joker", but all you have to do is use a little imagination (just pretend that Tim Drake is a few years older than he was in that movie) and even then it all falls together perfectly... provided that Timm & Co. make the easy-to-apply references that will make all the contiunity fall together like a beautifully designed building! :D

These are the major references and/or storylines that need to be applied to Justice League...

-"Apokolips... Now!" and "Legacy" need to be addressed, especially when Darkseid starts showing up.

-Kyle Rainer... this one is so easy to take care of! One two-parter where Kyle and John team up to stop Sinestro should do it. Have Sinestro escape from a prison on Earth, and go back to whereever he got his power, and get his power again. Then, Kyle is called back from another sector of the Galaxy (where he was patrolling) to Earth to help John catch Sinestro again, since Kyle was the only GL who could catch Sinestro last time.

-Whenever Lex Luthor and Joker are involved, Batman/Superman, "World's Finest" should be taken into account. Luthor shouldn't trust Joker at all, and should keep him at arm's length, especially in the Injustice Gang.

-Why can't Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin, and Supergirl make a cameo appearance? It's not like they have to have a whole two-parter devoted to them or anything.

Of course, everything else needs to be addressed to, eventually, but these are the major issues.

I think that making all four TV shows a package deal is good for four reasons:

(1) This will give Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman/Superman Adventures, and Batman Beyond new life as fans who started watching Justice League will crave all the background storylines that Justice League brings up from time to time. It will bring in more viewers to watch these classic TV shows!

(2) This will also allow Warner Bros. to sell the rights to air all four TV shows as a package deal. (Much the way Paramount does with Star Trek now -- TNN got all the 24th Century shows [TNG, DS9, Voyager] in their TV deal with Paramount, for example.)

(3) When you combine (1) and (2), it GREATLY increases the chances of all four TV shows (and their movies) coming out on DVD in their totality! :D

(4) Finally, a note to the creators of Justice League: The interest that (1), (2), and (3) would inspire in this package deal would make the demand for Justice League all the greater, which would, in turn, help you guys keep your jobs for all the longer doing what we love you to do! :D

Now, how can you disagree with such a well-placed strategy as that? :)

JusticeLeagueLegion

03-13-2002, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Squall
I think that all four TV shows should be a package deal. They should work together as one giant storyline, with continuity, like this, in chronological order:

Batman: The Animated Series --> The Batman/Superman Adventures --> Justice League --> Batman Beyond

At this point, the only issue I see that can't be easily resolved is Batman Beyond, "Return of the Joker", but all you have to do is use a little imagination (just pretend that Tim Drake is a few years older than he was in that movie) and even then it all falls together perfectly... provided that Timm & Co. make the easy-to-apply references that will make all the contiunity fall together like a beautifully designed building! :D

These are the major references and/or storylines that need to be applied to Justice League...

-"Apokolips... Now!" and "Legacy" need to be addressed, especially when Darkseid starts showing up.

-Kyle Rainer... this one is so easy to take care of! One two-parter where Kyle and John team up to stop Sinestro should do it. Have Sinestro escape from a prison on Earth, and go back to whereever he got his power, and get his power again. Then, Kyle is called back from another sector of the Galaxy (where he was patrolling) to Earth to help John catch Sinestro again, since Kyle was the only GL who could catch Sinestro last time.

-Whenever Lex Luthor and Joker are involved, Batman/Superman, "World's Finest" should be taken into account. Luthor shouldn't trust Joker at all, and should keep him at arm's length, especially in the Injustice Gang.

-Why can't Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin, and Supergirl make a cameo appearance? It's not like they have to have a whole two-parter devoted to them or anything.

Of course, everything else needs to be addressed to, eventually, but these are the major issues.

I think that making all four TV shows a package deal is good for four reasons:

(1) This will give Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman/Superman Adventures, and Batman Beyond new life as fans who started watching Justice League will crave all the background storylines that Justice League brings up from time to time. It will bring in more viewers to watch these classic TV shows!

(2) This will also allow Warner Bros. to sell the rights to air all four TV shows as a package deal. (Much the way Paramount does with Star Trek now -- TNN got all the 24th Century shows [TNG, DS9, Voyager] in their TV deal with Paramount, for example.)

(3) When you combine (1) and (2), it GREATLY increases the chances of all four TV shows (and their movies) coming out on DVD in their totality! :D

(4) Finally, a note to the creators of Justice League: The interest that (1), (2), and (3) would inspire in this package deal would make the demand for Justice League all the greater, which would, in turn, help you guys keep your jobs for all the longer doing what we love you to do! :D

Now, how can you disagree with such a well-placed strategy as that? :)

I agree with you a lot there...but what about characters such as...

Steel
Dr. Fate
The Creeper
Zatanna?

I think there should be some further references to heroes like them. Zatanna was on a Gotham Girls episode and it was probably the best one.

Tim Drake

03-13-2002, 12:19 PM

Explaining the changing of Kyle Rayner to John Stewart could be problematic. However, there are some things they definitely should have kept. I remember Bruce Timm said in an interview they changed Secret Origins. Originally there was a line. We can't trust the security of the world to one man. Especially him! They cut out the last line because they assume not everyone has seen Legacy. While everyone might not have seen Legacy, it was far too important of an episode for them to forget in continuity. I just don't buy it.

On the other hand, I'm glad that several things have stayed the same. Such as Superman's theme which we actually heard in War World!! (a little too briefly though) and the Batplane.

Us fans, aren't asking for very much. Not that Justice League episodes draw solely from old episodes. However, some large scale situations such as Legacy cannot be forgotten.

Joe Wagner

03-13-2002, 01:01 PM

Personally I think that continuity is important between the series - after all Justice League came about because of the Batman and Superman shows doing incredibly well and the fans, yes the fans!, clammored about JL:TAS. To say that a majority of the fans watching JL have never seen B:TAS or S:TAS is probably bogus. Granted there are quite a few that have never seen the show but the majority is going to be fans of B:TAS and/or S:TAS.

By not following some sort of continuity it would almost be like telling George Lucas to do Empire Strikes Back but pretend like the audience never saw A New Hope. This takes up way more screen time than it should to re-characterize the main characters and could also cause fans to react indifferently to the show. I think a lot of this has happened with the fans of S:TAS and B:TAS. Superman isn't as strong and seems to be taken down quickly by any villain - is it because he's holding back (which would be a continuity thing) or because the show needs to be able to take Supes out of the picture in order to make the entire league necessary? Even in S:TAS there were times where he was weak but he was growing in power as the series progressed - in this series he cuts loose one time (Secret Origins, at the beginning at least) and then gets taken out by three robots in a different one (War World, altho did anyone notice a resemblence between these robots and Brainiacs?).

I guess my point is continuity should be followed and mentioned within the script - giving new fans an idea of what happened before and hopefully sparking their interest to finding out more but also giving us long-time fans a nod. The Green Lantern continuity could be cleaned up by simply saying that the corps decided they needed two lanterns for the hot spot that is earth - one for earth itself and one for the sector around earth (Kyle could be this one, DC Comics did this type of scenario for a while with Hal Jordan and John Stewart so it could even have it's basis in comic-lore). As for the Wonder Woman being a 'newbie' - any chance her mom could have put on the costume for a while, explored mans world, become a public figure and then returned to Themyscara? This would explain why she didn't want Diana to leave, why the costume was there and how she could still be considered a newbie.

Just my two cents on the matter.

-Joe!

jm5150bc

03-13-2002, 03:40 PM

Reply to post by "Beyond Batman"

jm5150bc, I'm sure you realize that Knightfall was a storyarc that was a major turning point for Batman. Bottom line, that was the first time Batman failed at anything...

Real quick answer- I read 'em all, and my comment was not about Batman... As I would think you could tell by the avatar, He's awesome !! My Comment was about Bane... they brought him in to be some ultimate villain, and this was his "introduction" in the comics, but how many "ultimate" villains would take pride in beating the hero as his worst ??!!

If you would like to continue this conversation, private messages might be best- this probably doesn't belong in this forum thread...

Maxie Zeus

03-13-2002, 03:57 PM

People keep talking about "continuity" as though it were an either/or thing: Either JL is "in" continuity (in which case everything that was ever mentioned or developed in BTAS and STAS has to be dragged in) or it is not, in which case they have nothing to do with each other.

But "continuity" is like "integration"--it's a matter of degree.

Look, people complain that there are no references to "Legacy" or "World's Finest" in JL, and assume that means the continuity has been dropped. Well, there were no references to Rupert Thorne to TNBA. Does that mean that they abandoned continuity between BTAS and TNBA with regard to Thorne? No. It just means that the stories they wanted to tell in TNBA had nothing to do with Thorne, and so there was no reason to bring him in or explain his absence.

So why not just accept the same thing with regard to JL? Granted, there are seeming omissions and inconsistencies. But it's easy enough to simply assume that whatever stories get told in JL (and which were told in STAS) don't depend upon integrating the two series to the extent of going to the trouble of relieving those inconsistencies.

Oh, and the assumption that if you are a fan of the shows then you MUST have seen every single episode? Sorry, that doesn't hold true. I am a fan of STAS. And for lots of reasons having to do with cable or television access and whatnot, I have never seen "Legacy." The assumption that JL's audience obviously and necessarily is intimate with every facet and detail of the previous shows is both false and pernicious.

ZorBrak

03-13-2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by DerekPowers
seriously man, i totally agree. its not that hard to catch up, hell, its not neuroscience, its cartoons. they should embrace continuity and realize those who may not know what continuity is crossing over from the old shows STILL KNOW THERE IS CONTINUITY and understand that they may have missed something because they missed an old show. its not a big deal, i think that would make people want to revisit the old shows.

and the continuity in the animated series is fairly simple, so no one, not even people who may have only seen one or two eps of btas, will be completely lost and in the dark, its not like that.

the main reason i love the dc animated universe has alot to do w/ the character development and continuity that can only arise over years of shows, and it is a VERY STRONG aspect of these shows that should be embraced.

Yeah I know! I started watching DBZ right after freiza died, was it hard to catch up? not really? just read up a little on the net...that's what its there for! arghhhhh!!! Kyle where did you go?!!

ZorBrak

03-13-2002, 07:49 PM

I'm sorry but to disregaurd continuity...which they HAVE done,"who's the newbie?" anyone?...is just LAZY. They claim they "will not slave over continuity" (nice job listening to the fans guys you sound like grumpy old men who don't care)...IS IT THAT HARD?! No, it's failry simple and I don't give a damn what new fans can understand or not. Frankly, if they can't follow a simple plot and a few past reference sentences I don't care, and I don't care since they are the SMALL minority of fans, all the creator's would have to do for them in the first place is include a breif history telling dialog through one of the characters... it's much better to have a few stupid fans lost than have the chunk of LOYAL fans pissed becuase they went out of their way to taylor things for the moderate possibly idiot fans who are too lazy themeselves to find out what happened in previous series...or EVEN, why can't they just make breif references that both sides can understand, it's not like the "How can we trust the fate of the world to one man...especially this one?" line would have pissed newbies off as much as the "who's the newbie" comment about Wonder Woman pissed us fans off. And one last thing, it's not like continuty facts are needed all that often, all I ask are explanations on what the hell happened to Kyle and I want the dialog to not betray past episodes...bottom line....ITS NOT HARD TO KEEP A GROUP OF SHOWS IN CONTINUITY AND ITS NOT THAT HARD FOR NEW FANS TO CATCH UP AND THE TRADE OF A FEW CONFUED FANS IS BETTER THAN MAKING INACCURACIES IN DECADE OLD CONTINUITIES that have until now stayed true to past events, and piss off legions of loyal fans.

SSJ_Gogeta

03-13-2002, 11:38 PM

Or you could just sit down , and watch the damn show. It's a cartoon. Calm down. It's not a serial like DBZ. So what if it doesn't have continuity all the time? You obviously wouldn't be here if you didn't like the show.

CadaverousEyes

03-14-2002, 12:31 AM

How does making Wonder Woman a rookie completely desecrate continuity when the only reference to her in Superman was just one single 5 word line put in to add humor? Call it fourth-wall breaking, call it an in-joke, pretend it never happened, but geez, to get all worked up over ONE line.

As for the Kyle Rayner/John Stewart, just be patient. If the series ends and they still haven't bothered to bring it up, then complain.

Beyond Batman

03-14-2002, 03:02 AM

How many of you watched Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back? Well... regardless if you've seen any other Kevin Smith films, was it a funny movie? Yes! I laughed my arms off!*

Well, it was a funny movie. Did you have to see Kevin Smith's other films to understand the humor, the story, the plot, the characters, etc.? NO! But for the people who have seen Kevin Smith's films, it bumped up the "funny level" a notch. Making it a bit more personnal for long time Kevin Smith fans, yet, enjoyable for a general audience (more like Rated R) to watch. Kevin Smith, no matter how dirty his mouth is, will always be the kind of guy devoted to what his fans want. For that reason, I give him much respect. He doesn't sellout, change things around to simply make his material "user-friendly" for newbie fans.

I agree with ZorBrak, and he makes a very good point. Don't give in to laziness. For those newbies out there new to the fandom, just because it's not spelled out for you in alphabet soup doesn't mean continutiy references are hard to find. Also, maintaining continuity is good because it encourages people to look back and see what was there.

Almost 75% of the Simpson's humor makes references to their older shows... but do you still laugh? Yes. For diehard fans, it just adds iceing to the cake. Same thing goes for the X-Files Movie. The whole thing was based off of the series... but because you didn't keep up with the show, did you understand the movie? Yes!

Continuity is important because it offers a base history of a character(s). It helps define characters and gives the fan a sense of belonging... because they've continued being a fan for so long, they're rewarded with continued knowledge of the character. Not meaning a new fan wouldn't understand it. They just need to go back and catch up. For those who don't care for continuity, seem too lazy to do. If you take the initiative to do your homework, you'll be rewarded with knowledge. Something school tries to teach us.

Taking a character out of continuity is like your Dad saying "Sure, you can take the car out this Friday!" Then Friday rolls along and when you ask for the car keys your Dad says, (with a harsh tone) "You're not taking that car anywhere boy! Stay home and wash the dog!" Changing continuity is like pulling the rug from underneath your feet (for a long time devoted fan), especially if they offer no explanation.

*Wasn't that another good example? See... it doesn't take a genious to figure out what I meant by arms! And you understood my point. :D

Squall

03-14-2002, 05:16 AM

"It's a cartoon. Calm down. It's not a serial like DBZ." Oh, and I suppose Dragonball and Dragonball Z aren't cartoons? :rolleyes: And with continuity, no doubt? I love the Dragonball/Dragonball Z cartoons as much as I love the Batman/Superman/Justice League/Batman Beyond cartoons, and I want both overall series to exist as "package deals" that have cohesive continuity. If Dragonball and Dragonball Z can have it, then why can't Batman, Superman, Justice League, and Batman Beyond???

Oh, and about Lois Lane saying the "And I'm Wonder Woman" line... who says that breaks up continuity in any way? "Superman" and "Wonder Woman" are pretty easy hero names to come up with, you know? Clark Kent could have easily responded to her, "Yeah, and I'm Wonder Man." :D I'm sure that, when Diana, Princess of the Amazons, appeared in "Secret Origins" and was dubbed by Snapper Carr and other journalists as "Wonder Woman", Lois Lane was probably sitting at her desk in the Dailey Planet saying, "Hey! I thought that name up first!" (Assuming she would even remember making such a subtle joke so long ago, that is. And how many of us have once said to ourselves, "Hey! I thought of that idea first!") :)

So that takes care of the "Lois Lane mentioning Wonder Woman" arguement! :p Next?

SSJ_Gogeta

03-14-2002, 10:32 AM

Never said DBZ wasn't did I? It's a toon like JL, and should be treated as such, just a toon. Just brought it up because it is a show that is supposed to have continuity. Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, BB, and JL are thie rown series. They were never meant to be cohesive. The generalities of the series will be cohesive (Batman has his background, Supes has his, and the DC universe in general is intact etc.), but they don't have to connect.

Let JL be it's own show, and just watch. The DB manga/anime series was one BIG LONG story. It makes sense that it connects because it is supposed to. Batman, Supes, and JL have all thier stories, and shows that were never meant to coexist with eachother. The general idea of the DC universe is thier in JL, it just doesn't connect with the other animated series.

Again, let the creators do thier job the way they want to. It is a entertaining show in it's own right.

Just my opinion on the matter.

The Penguin

03-14-2002, 04:10 PM

Time for The Penguin to weigh in. The references to The Simpsons and the X-Files really aren't as relevant in this argument. When The Simpsons refers to old episodes it is bringing up things from it's own past, not something from another show with some of the same characters. Same for The X-Files movie. "Frasier" is considered a spin-off of the "Cheers" character, but just about everything you knew about him changed. On "Cheers" Frasier's dad is a dead psychologist and he didn't have a brother. On "Frasier" Frasier's dad is alive and is a retired police officer... and he has a brother. That sure is betraying continuity.

The Justice League is really not a continuation of BTAS, STAS or even BB. It is its own show. They may have some characters in common, but overall it is not "...to be continued" from the finales of any of the other shows.

In the JL universe (because it is its own universe) Kyle Rayner is not the Green Lantern--John Stewart is. Maybe Kyle will show up some day, but it should not be necessary for Stewart to be the accepted Green Lantern of Earth. Timm makes a good point even if it is just a PC move. Live-action network TV shows are always blasted for not having minorities (i.e. Friends). Timm felt including the African-American GL was the right thing to do in that respect and I tend to agree.

Also a new show brings in new fans. I did not watch Craig T. Nelson on "Coach," but now I watch him on "The District" (Saturdays @ 10 p.m. E on CBS ;) ) every week. Fans of "Coach" probably checked out the show to see Nelson again. I checked it out because the show itself interested me. If I watched "Secret Origins" for something to do and decided that I liked it and my favorite member was The Flash, or I hate Batman for not being a team player, then I probably won't have too much interest in BTAS or STAS.

Is the JL team underestimating fans when it comes to continuity??
Yes, they may be underestimating the hardcore, long-time fans when it comes to continuity, but that is in the best interest of the show. Not every fan new fan of JL is going to want to go back and watch three old TV shows and some DTV movies. Some might, but others may not know about them or care. Is it safe to say that a majority of JL’s fan-base are fans of the other shows—sure it is, but at the same time there are new fans. You have to find a way to keep them on board. Hardcore fans are going to watch the show anyway because it gives them more of what they want to see, but new fans won’t put up with a bunch of inside things that relate to old shows that do not have direct meaning for this one. For JL to continue for years it needs good ratings with a strong fan-base. I for one would be kind of upset if I felt I had to go back and watch a different show just to understand what was going on in one that I was already watching.

Timm & co. mean that they will not allow the other separate shows to prevent them from doing something they think will be good for JL and I commend them for it.

Maxie Zeus

03-14-2002, 05:04 PM

All right. This is getting out of control. People need to calm down about this.

Take a deep breath before you reply to anything.

Beyond Batman

03-14-2002, 05:48 PM

"For JL to continue for years it needs good ratings with a strong fan-base. I for one would be kind of upset if I felt I had to go back and watch a different show just to understand what was going on in one that I was already watching." -The Penguin

So are you saying long time fans of BTAS, STAS, TNBAS aren't a strong enough fan base??? You can still make long lived fans happy and entertain the newbies. It's not that tough.

"I for one would be kind of upset if I felt I had to go back and watch a different show just to understand what was going on in one that I was already watching." -The Penguin

So do you not want to go out of your way to watch these episodes or do you not like the other shows and consider yourself exclusively a JL fan? What exactly would make you "upset?" If you consider watching older episodes of Batman and Superman a waste of time... that's too bad. You're really missing out on some really good quality episodes.

Continuity doesn't necessarily mean missing a whole piece of the puzzle. It's just that if you're a long time fan, you'll appreciate the references a little bit more.

Let me ask you guys this: Would you guys completely hate an episode if it made continuity references consistant with the older shows? Also, why is continuity such a hard concept for some of you to grab? It's not like pulling teeth.

Squall

03-14-2002, 06:25 PM

Actually, Justice League episodes that have/will make references to Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman/Superman Adventures, and Batman Beyond would be my favorite episodes of all! :D

And most people who love a TV show are willing to do some homework into the past incarnations of the TV show. Why do you think the Star Trek TV shows are so successful? Because, no matter which Star Trek you start watching (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise), once you're hooked, you want to see ALL the TV shows. I think the same thing applies here, to Batman/Superman/Justice League/Batman Beyond... :D

JusticeLeagueLegion

03-14-2002, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Squall
Actually, Justice League episodes that have/will make references to Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman/Superman Adventures, and Batman Beyond would be my favorite episodes of all! :D

And most people who love a TV show are willing to do some homework into the past incarnations of the TV show. Why do you think the Star Trek TV shows are so successful? Because, no matter which Star Trek you start watching (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise), once you're hooked, you want to see ALL the TV shows. I think the same thing applies here, to Batman/Superman/Justice League/Batman Beyond... :D

I happen to be a huge Star Trek fan myself.

The Penguin

03-14-2002, 11:51 PM

"So are you saying long time fans of BTAS, STAS, TNBAS aren't a strong enough fan base???" -Beyond Batman

It's all about increasing the fan base. The more people who watch the higher the ratings, the more money the show makes, the more CN commits to it.

"So do you not want to go out of your way to watch these episodes or do you not like the other shows and consider yourself exclusively a JL fan? What exactly would make you 'upset?' If you consider watching older episodes of Batman and Superman a waste of time... that's too bad. You're really missing out on some really good quality episodes." -Beyond Batman

I consider myself more a Batman fan than a JL fan. I watch all the shows, but I am seeing Superman for the first time Saturday nights. But like I said before if someone is new to JL and likes Flash the best then they probably would not care.

"Continuity doesn't necessarily mean missing a whole piece of the puzzle. It's just that if you're a long time fan, you'll appreciate the references a little bit more." -Beyond Batman

An occasional nod here and there is fine, but what some people are talking about are things like "Where is Kyle?" Newbies would be saying "Who's Kyle?" There isn't any Kyle. If JL came before STAS then everyone would be asking "Where's John?" They are two separate shows--not a continuation of each other.

"Let me ask you guys this: Would you guys completely hate an episode if it made continuity references consistant with the older shows? Also, why is continuity such a hard concept for some of you to grab? It's not like pulling teeth." -Beyond Batman

They are just that, the older shows. I would hate for something new and creative for JL to be shot down in the name of continuity.

CadaverousEyes

03-15-2002, 01:06 AM

Wait, let me get this straight: the same kind of people that prefer the animated series to the comics, because they aren't bogged down by years of continuity, are wanting more continuity? I can understand wanting consistency (e.g. the Green Lantern fiasco), but something like Batman saying "Hey Superman, remember that time Ra's al Ghul tried to steal your powers and I had to bail you out?" is just too much. In The Enemy Below, Superman and Aquaman gave each other long knowing looks, what more do you want? A total recap of what happened in A Fish Story? Maybe I'm just confused.

The Penguin

03-15-2002, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by CadaverousEyes
I'm just confused.

No, you hit the nail right on the proverbial head.

JasonBlood

03-15-2002, 03:17 AM

I totally agree. This is a problem that runs rampant through Hollywood. Some studios think that a show can't have continity for one simple reason: syndication. If a show is successful, and goes into syndication, then they aren't always run in the order they were first broadcast, and they think this will confuse new viewers. I hate this assumption.

Squall

03-15-2002, 03:19 AM

"Take a deep breath before you reply to anything."
Breathe in, breathe out... breathe in, breathe out... OK, I'm ready to jump back into the fray. :p

Why can't Batman: The Animated Series and The Batman/Superman Adventures be assimilated as part of Justice League? That would be the ultimate expression of continuity between these TV shows! :D

I rewatched "The Brave and The Bold" again today after getting home from work... it really makes you appreciate the characterization that can be done when only one or two hero storylines are written! (Of course, I love the 'most' or 'all' Justice League member episodes too.) Which makes me think... will be start getting more of these types of episodes, more often? (I hope so!) And, if there are many one and two hero stories planned, then I'm sure Batman and Superman will get their days in the Sun, as both one and two hero stories. Which makes me think some more... why can't Timm & Co. use the one and two hero storylines of Justice League that will be devoted to Batman and Superman to basically continue Batman: The Animated Series and The Batman/Superman Adventures??? Not only would that be awesome , but, for most intents and purposes, Cartoon Network could start considering Batman: The Animated Series and The Batman/Superman Adventures as 'episodes' of Justice League too!

It would be just like the way "Superfriends" was really a collage of various DC Comics cartoons from the 1970's and 1980's (as well as the "Superfriends" cartoon itself), but this time it would actually be cool! And it would give the older two shows new 'life' and give Justice League an 'instant' libarary of episodes!

Man, I REALLY wish they'd do that... :D

Oh, and I don't mean to imply that Batman and Superman have to get extensive screen time and dominate the TV show! In the 3-5 (or more?) Seasons that Justice League is sure to have, what's the harm in having a few one or two hero episodes every now and then? Give all 7 heroes one two-parter all to themselves (Batman and Superman included, of course), and have some two-parters where only two heroes team up -- like "The Brave and The Bold", and of course, one two-parter where Batman and Superman team up (like another "World's Finest", but against a new threat, not Joker and Lex Luthor again) for old time's sake. What's the harm in that?

Of course, I would expect the majority of episodes to have 3-7 heroes (with a rule of thumb being, the larger the threat, the more JL members are needed to take care of it, and vice versa), but limiting Justice League to that would cut out some potentially great storylines, and, well -- be limiting.

Yes, Batman has had 109 episodes all to himself, and Superman has had 44 episodes all to himself. Not 54 episodes! The other 10 "Superman" episodes were virtually Justice League episodes already! The other 10 episodes were team-up episodes, just like "The Brave and The Bold":

"Speed Demons" -- Superman & Flash
"In Brightest Day" -- Superman & Green Lantern
"A Fish Story" -- Superman & Aquaman
"The Hand of Fate" -- Superman & Dr. Fate
"Heavy Metal" -- Superman & Steel
"World's Finest" (a three-parter) -- Superman & Batman
"Knight Time" -- Superman & Batman
"The Demon Reborn" -- Superman & Batman

So you see, Superman: TAS was already setting the stage for Justice League! And "Batman", "Superman", "World's Finest", etc. are really derivatives of Justice League, when you think about it, so again, I see NO harm in assimilating "Batman" and "Superman" into Justice League as Justice League 'episodes' and just making it one Justice League TV show. It adds an instant library to Justice League, gives it plenty of backstory to draw from... AND would allow (and/or force, depending on how you look at it) Bruce Timm & Co. to take continuity into account a bit more often.

I think it would be great! Then Justice League, "The Brave and The Bold", would be considered episodes #173-174 of Justice League (under this system). Pretty cool!!! :D

Joe Wagner

03-15-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by The Penguin

No, you hit the nail right on the proverbial head.

I don't think so - by asking for continuity we are not asking for explicit, direct references to the past like, Batman saying "So Superman - remember that time you teamed up with Robin and dressed like me while I was under the control of Brainiac? Good times, weren't they?"

What we are asking for though is more references like in Secret Origins - "We can't trust *him* (Superman) with our worlds security!" - an indirect reference to Legacy and one that the newbies would pass over as the words of an angry general. The Kyle thing doesn't even have to have a direct reference - just have him with the GL Corps when they show up, or have him fight Sinestro and ask John how he likes defending Earth and John can ask how Sector 572-A is - it's that simple.

And no offense to you Penguin but JL is supposed to be a continuation of B:TAS and S:TAS - it's supposed to be based two or three years after Legacy and is supposed to use the Batman and Superman from the show. Mainly we're talking about the fact though that when Luthor shows up Superman can't be like "Who are you?" and pretend he never meet him. And to further the continuity nod - Injustice Gang will actually show how Luthor got to the stage he's at now, following the events of Legacy - straight from the mouth of Timm himself.

-Joe!

Dark Knight

03-15-2002, 02:19 PM

Well I just read Timm's comments on the news page and I must say, that's all I'm really asking for. I trust season 2 should probably have more references to past stuff and that will definately please me in those small trivial ways.

I guess its still a gamble on the Kyle issue but I doubt they'd let that linger. We'll probably get that story down the line. If not next year then at least season 3.

"The Call" references in the Darkseid episodes? That should prove very interesting. He's got me on the edge of my seat already. That guy's awesome.

DerekPowers

03-15-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
People keep talking about "continuity" as though it were an either/or thing: Either JL is "in" continuity (in which case everything that was ever mentioned or developed in BTAS and STAS has to be dragged in) or it is not, in which case they have nothing to do with each other.

But "continuity" is like "integration"--it's a matter of degree.

Look, people complain that there are no references to "Legacy" or "World's Finest" in JL, and assume that means the continuity has been dropped. Well, there were no references to Rupert Thorne to TNBA. Does that mean that they abandoned continuity between BTAS and TNBA with regard to Thorne? No. It just means that the stories they wanted to tell in TNBA had nothing to do with Thorne, and so there was no reason to bring him in or explain his absence.

So why not just accept the same thing with regard to JL? Granted, there are seeming omissions and inconsistencies. But it's easy enough to simply assume that whatever stories get told in JL (and which were told in STAS) don't depend upon integrating the two series to the extent of going to the trouble of relieving those inconsistencies.

Oh, and the assumption that if you are a fan of the shows then you MUST have seen every single episode? Sorry, that doesn't hold true. I am a fan of STAS. And for lots of reasons having to do with cable or television access and whatnot, I have never seen "Legacy." The assumption that JL's audience obviously and necessarily is intimate with every facet and detail of the previous shows is both false and pernicious.

Maxie Zeus, i gotta hand it to you, you make excellent points, especially the rupert thorne comments. BUT i agree with you. i am not saying JL should put in a bunch of references to past shows just because, i actually like that it isnt doing that. i think it is important to make JL develop BY ITSELF into a good show with solid stories. and id never assume that just because your a JL fan that you must have seen all, if any, btas, stas, or bb. BUT chances are the majority of people watching JL have seen a few eps of any of the old series, especially if you grew up in the 90s. they know the past series existed and they know the batman and superman characters on JL are out of those series.

so, while i agree with you, I do have a problem with the creators not explaining things that, with lack of an explaination, contradict a big part of a previous series. for example...the whole GL thing. i personally dont mind it too much, but it does leave alot of questions.

second, the great thing about the previous shows was the intensive character development over the years and the relationships between the characters. i think this needs to cross over into JL. Someone above brought up the superman/aquaman relationship in the enemy below. thats a perfect example of what im talking about. you didnt need references to a fish story, it would have been completely pointless. their interaction was all you needed to know theyve delt w/ eachother before and respect eachother.

NOW its not that simple for other relationships. like, in "injustice for all" it would be completely out of character for lex to trust joker after worlds finest, so if the storyline or lex's plans dont take into account that he shouldnt be trusting joker, i'll be very dissapointed. do we need a direct reference to worlds finest; this is one of those cases where its not really needed but would be a nice treat for us hardcore fans, BUT w/ or without a direct reference, Lex's behavior towards Joker should be realistic and in line with how past events would make you expect their relationship to be like. thats all im saying.

a perfect example is in "secret origins" where superman has to keep telling the other JLers little things about batman, like when he tells jonn that batman doesnt trust anyone, things like that, continues an already developed relationship nicely. thats what i mean when i say continuity.

Now a direct reference to a past show simply to please the hardcore fans, im for it but only once in a while. like how every once in a while BB threw in an old bat villian, that was good, but only once in a while. "meltdown" was almost a direct continuation of "cold comfort". theres a reason why EVERYONE cant wait till "injustice for all' airs and theres a reason why everyone who watches JL w/ me (especially the ones who arent even hardcore fans) get all excited when that injustice gang promo comes up after a commercial break. CAUSE everyone loves Joker and Lex, wheter youve seen 2 btas/stas eps or all of them. whenever joker's laugh comes up and you see his grin, everyones like "ahhh [explentive deleted]" cause everyone's feeling it, hardcore fan or not.

EVERYONE will benefit from such actions. it will make for better story telling and more realistic relationships. ONCE MORE, to reiderate, were not saying have references in there just for the hell of it. that would be dumb. but dont do things that contradicts (gl) a previous show in a big way w/out an explaination. i like john stewart, i dont mind that hes in and kyles out, but i do mind that they dont explain it. AND were also saying that when it MAKES SENSE that an issue from a past series should arise (like it makes NO SENSE that worlds finest or stas would have no impact on "injustice for all" and it also makes little sense that "legacy" not impact the upcoming darkseid ep), then they shouldnt leave it out simply because someone may not have seen the old ep. if it makes sense it should come up, that will make for better writing and EVERYONE will appreciate it. and as ive been saying, it doesnt really matter, cause those who may not have seen an old show wont be all lost and stuff cause its not even that complicated, if anything, theyd just miss the reference and would never even know. but these things were fundamental things that made btas/tnba, stas/tnsa, and bb so great. they had really good character development and everything built ontop of other things making for a better overall show. JL should take advantage of this, not only w/ continuity w/in the JL show, but when its called for, with past shows as well.

and one more thing...(read the interview w/ timm on the news page)

TIMM SAID SUPPORTING CHARACTERS FROM THE OLD SHOWS WILL BE MAKING APPEARENCES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Believe me, everyone will love this, even regular JL fans who may only have seen alittle of btas or tnba. BECAUSE EVERYONE LOVED those old shows, even if they only saw a few eps. there wont be a single person who wont apprieciate the appearence of any btas or stas supporting character, cause everyone loves them, no matter how much or little of btas/stas theyve seen. theyre just great characters, period, so it will be great AND it MAKES SENSE that they should appear since batman and superman are JL members and all, it makes sense for them to show up atleast once. YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH BABY, THIS IS SWEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Toddman

03-15-2002, 04:41 PM

I don't know how this number might affect anybody's particular theory on who is and is not watching JL, but the 18-34 age group makes up less than 1/5 of the show's total audience (at least for the premiere). I would imagine that most of us on this board are in that category. I would guess then that the other 4/5 of the audience is younger (and perhaps not as familiar w/ the previous shows, other than BB).

At any rate, the overall prime target for CN are kids between the ages of 6-11. Does that mean that JL should only play to that audience? Of course not. If anything JL exists to bring in an older group for the network.

I just think that we should not overestimate our share of the audience, and underestimate what is important to the other viewers. It kinda reminds me of the situation w/the (absent) JL toy line. All of us may think that the collectors and fans would snap up Hawkgirl and J'onn J'onnz figures by the truckload, but only 10% of the toy buying public are not kids. Just walk into your neighborhood Wal-Mart and say hello to the rows of un-bought TNBA Creeper figures to see what I mean.

I dunno if any of this really matters, though. It never stopped the old shows from making references to past events in other shows (the end of both "Knight Time" and "The Call" pt 1 come to mind).

Just food for thought.

Toddman

Memphis Bleek

03-15-2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by jjwspider

I don't think so - by asking for continuity we are not asking for explicit, direct references to the past like, Batman saying "So Superman - remember that time you teamed up with Robin and dressed like me while I was under the control of Brainiac? Good times, weren't they?"

What we are asking for though is more references like in Secret Origins - "We can't trust *him* (Superman) with our worlds security!" - an indirect reference to Legacy and one that the newbies would pass over as the words of an angry general. The Kyle thing doesn't even have to have a direct reference - just have him with the GL Corps when they show up, or have him fight Sinestro and ask John how he likes defending Earth and John can ask how Sector 572-A is - it's that simple.

And no offense to you Penguin but JL is supposed to be a continuation of B:TAS and S:TAS - it's supposed to be based two or three years after Legacy and is supposed to use the Batman and Superman from the show. Mainly we're talking about the fact though that when Luthor shows up Superman can't be like "Who are you?" and pretend he never meet him. And to further the continuity nod - Injustice Gang will actually show how Luthor got to the stage he's at now, following the events of Legacy - straight from the mouth of Timm himself.

-Joe!

When was it stated that JL was suppose to be a continuation of BTAS and STAS or is this just assumption made by the fans?