Why was Flash so slow?... [Archive]

MILatino

03-11-2002, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by DR.MID-NITE
In the begining of Brave & the Bold. Flash was chasing after the stolen truck. He should have caught up to it very quickly. But, it seemed he could barely catch up to the truck. Which at most could only be doing around 80mph. Another case of powering down a hero to advance the story.

I didn't interpret that as being powered down. If the Flash were running in a straight line with no obstacles, sure he could've caught up with them in... um... a flash! But he was dodging debris and getting people out of the way and being shot at. He couldn't have just run up to the van without being careful.

That first scene was great. It was reminiscent of the Deadshot chase scene... no super powered villian, no super techno flying craft with ultra lasers. It was just someone who was being difficult to catch up with. The Flash is not invulnerable and needed to catch them without getting himself killed.

Then came the talking gorilla angle. Sigh... Couldn't it be a "normal" international espionage story with GASP! :eek: plain old human beings? Does everything have to be aliens or mythical/incredible secret Earthly species? :rolleyes:

Joe Tully

03-11-2002, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by The Guard
He WAS avoiding debris, other vehicles, etc.

That was the reasoning I used. If he had been going faster, he probably would have had difficulty avoiding the oncoming traffic. Plus, the van was driving away from him pretty fast.

It would be interesting if we could get some idea of what JL Flash's top speed is.

metaphysician

03-12-2002, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by MILatino

I didn't interpret that as being powered down. If the Flash were running in a straight line with no obstacles, sure he could've caught up with them in... um... a flash! But he was dodging debris and getting people out of the way and being shot at. He couldn't have just run up to the van without being careful.

That first scene was great. It was reminiscent of the Deadshot chase scene... no super powered villian, no super techno flying craft with ultra lasers. It was just someone who was being difficult to catch up with. The Flash is not invulnerable and needed to catch them without getting himself killed.

Then came the talking gorilla angle. Sigh... Couldn't it be a "normal" international espionage story with GASP! :eek: plain old human beings? Does everything have to be aliens or mythical/incredible secret Earthly species? :rolleyes:

Not if your going to have a story with Grodd as the villain.

SimonMoon5

03-12-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by MILatino
Does everything have to be aliens or mythical/incredible secret Earthly species? :rolleyes:

In a Justice League story? Heck yeah!

Sending Superman *and* Wonder Woman *and* Green Lantern *and* Martian Manhunter against a couple of ordinary guys would be lame. Just look at the black and white Superman live-action TV show. Superman against ordinary people. Yawn.

Livewire

03-12-2002, 05:22 PM

I thought the Flash should have caught up to the van sooner, too. I don't buy the theory that has been thrown around here a lot lately- the theory stating that he was having too much fun. I realize Flash isn't the most responsible guy on the team, but I can't imagine him endangering people's lives just for a thrill. I guess it would have been kind of boring if he had caught up to it in 5 seconds, but the chase lasted too long, imo.

MILatino

03-12-2002, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by SimonMoon5
Sending Superman *and* Wonder Woman *and* Green Lantern *and* Martian Manhunter against a couple of ordinary guys would be lame. Just look at the black and white Superman live-action TV show. Superman against ordinary people. Yawn.

I disagree. With good writing and cunning mortal human villians, a great story can be told. The B&W Superman stories had bad episodes, yes, but it was refreshing to see that it was mostly set in our world, not a fantasy world... with the exception of Superman himself.

I would love to see a story written by the NYPD Blue writing staff (minus the language for the young'uns) and just insert the Flash. That's it. Same characters, bad and good, except for the Flash. And when he did something, the others would really be in awe because it would really be incredible.

BTW, John Wesley Shipp (the 90s TV Flash) did play a role in NYPD Blue as this nasty cop for a while. :)

JusticeLeagueLegion

03-12-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by MILatino

I disagree. With good writing and cunning mortal human villians, a great story can be told.

Maybe if the human villain is Lex Luthor. But don't get me wrong, I like ordinary villains too..."The Late Mr. Kent" was one of my favorite eps of supey and it had just an ordinary guy for the bad guy. But for Superman and Batman is one thing, but for the whole JLA, that's another thing. The JLA need big threats. Just my opinion.

JTurner954

03-12-2002, 10:22 PM

Oh, come on. Avoiding debris?? Are you telling me that a van maneuvering around a bunch of vehicles will go quicker than Flash maneuving debris?? No way.

And the comment about he's enjoying himself, it makes it sound like he's waiting for the vehicle to crash into someone or something before saving them. Flash sounds pretty wreckless and selfish.

SirLemming

03-12-2002, 10:57 PM

Well, the guys in the van are evil (or being controlled), so they don't care what they hit!
Anyway, I think the "avoiding debris" reasoning is pretty justifiable. I mean, you can't look too deep into these things.

It's also possible that the van wasn't going fast enough, and he was trying not to go out-of-control fast. ...the avoiding debris thing is pretty good though. And people, too. Gotta avoid people.

JTurner954

03-12-2002, 11:11 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SirLemming
[B]Well, the guys in the van are evil (or being controlled), so they don't care what they hit! [QUOTE]

Exactly. Why would Flash be so careless if guys are driving wrecklessly?

Maxie Zeus

03-13-2002, 04:07 PM

I don't think there was a good reason for him to be slow. And I didn't care.

See, I watched the chase, and I thought "He's awfully slow." And then I thought, "This is going to be a comic episode -- the prologue makes that clear. So, it has the right to be relaxed about such things." And after that I didn't give it another thought. :)

WillPower

03-14-2002, 12:03 PM

I really didn't like the whole van-chasing sequence. It was very inconsistent in how it depicted Flash's speed. He was fast enough to create the whirlwind that redeposited the debris, meaning that he was running hundreds of miles per hour in an enclosed space, with moving objects flying at him. Then, he was fast enough to catch up to the van after that save, avoiding crashed cars and such as he caught up. But when he finally came up behind the van, he couldn't catch it? In previous episodes, we have already seen the Flash move fast enough to actually dismantle vehicles in a split second. And he was fast enough to defy gravity and run along a wall, but he can't break 80mph because the van is swerving and shooting at him? Didn't make any sense to me.

I know there are people that will say we are overthinking this, and to relax and enjoy the cartoon, but it really bugs me. I can't stand when shows aren't consistent within themselves. For example, if a man were to say he never went to school in one episode of a show, but talked about his college days in the next episode, that would just be bad writing. The same goes for powers on superhero shows. Making the powers fluctuate from episode to episode, or especially scene to scene, is just bad writing. If the writers wanted a chase scene, and wanted Flash to be slow enough that he couldn't catch the van, write it in, don't just do it. Make him have to do other things during the chase that would slow him down or something.

I don't mind that they have cut back on the heroes' powers (GL can only do dull shapes, Superman is weaker, etc.), but keep them consistent within the series.

That's my two cents, sorry for the rant. :D

SirLemming

03-14-2002, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by WillPower
Then, he was fast enough to catch up to the van after that save, avoiding crashed cars and such as he caught up. But when he finally came up behind the van, he couldn't catch it?

Well again, that might be a matter of distance and accuracy. He can go really fast when he's going a long distance, but when he approaches the van he has to slow down a bit or he'll go right past it and not be able to do anything to it. It's like turning when driving a car -- you have to slow down or else you'll go right off the street. He's gotta get down to their level!

As for the tornado thing, I kinda wondered why he didn't just run and grab them, moving them away from it. Or why they didn't just MOVE instead of staring at the rocks and screaming. But hey, this ain't the first superhero-type series to have that kind of thing.

JasonBlood

03-15-2002, 03:20 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MILatino
[B]

I didn't interpret that as being powered down. If the Flash were running in a straight line with no obstacles, sure he could've caught up with them in... um... a flash! But he was dodging debris and getting people out of the way and being shot at. He couldn't have just run up to the van without being careful.

I agree, though the animation looked a bit clumsy when trying to convey the Flash moving at high speeds.

Squall

03-15-2002, 05:10 AM

Just like Superman in "War World", I think that Flash was holding back -- on purpose -- in the truck chase in "The Brave and The Bold." However, they were holding back -- on purpose -- for very different reasons...

In "War World", Superman was holding back for moral reasons. He didn't want to kill anybody -- not even Draaga and Mongul.

However, in the truck chase in "The Brave and The Bold", Flash was holding back for an entirely different reason. He wanted to show off! This scene shows his reckless abandon, and that he'll inadvertently put other people at risk when he's having fun. And Green Lantern's line to Flash at the end of the truck chase tells us that the rest of the JL are well aware of Flash's moral shortcomings:

GL: "Did you lose something?" (Levitates falling truck.)
Flash: "I was handling it!"
GL (turns around and sees a path of destruction leading into the city): "So I see." (then he has a sarcastic look on his face)

Domino

03-15-2002, 08:22 AM

Now that I've meditated on this topic, I recall Superman having the same problem in the Aquaman episode. He couldn't catch Deadshot's van and ended up using heat vision on the tire. Why didn't he just fly down and pick it up instead of risking innocent lives by blowing out a tire and making it crash? I mean, this is a guy who can outfly missiles!

I think Darkseid is supplying bad guys with vans that have more to them than meets the eye! ;)

cartoonboy

03-15-2002, 01:31 PM

I haven't seen Brave & the Bold pt1 yet so I don't know what the car chase scene is comprised of.

From what I have read, I guess the debris, people & cars were enough to slow Flash down temporarily. Why couldn't/didn't he catch up to the van?

Does anyone remember the live-action Flash series? I vaguely remember an episode where Flash was chasing after a vehicle, as he got closer the vehicle dropped a spread of marbles and Flash was just spinning his wheels.

Why didn't they do something to that effect?

Maxie Zeus

03-15-2002, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Domino
I think Darkseid is supplying bad guys with vans that have more to them than meets the eye! ;)

LOL! That's at least as good as anything else I've seen suggested! :D

JTurner954

03-17-2002, 03:22 AM

After seeing the episode for a second time, I was ok with Flash being slower. I figured that Flash didn't eat enough at that restaurant to have enough strength to get to the van. Another thing (and more obvious): He also had to avoid the gunfire from the van. The widescreen format helped me enjoy the episode more too.

Joe Tully

03-17-2002, 04:31 AM

One of the things about his chasing it is that, even when he managed to catch up to it a couple of times, he couldn't really do anything about it. He doesn't have super-strength or whatever so I'm not really sure if he could've done anything to stop them other than popping a tire, which he eventually did of course. Anyways, I saw it today, and it didn't seem so bad. Contrary to what it seems like, I don't like over-analyzing some of this stuff, and prefer just enjoying things for what they are, which is what I tried to do this time. :)

strikerowen

03-17-2002, 07:02 AM

It's all about the speed... usually I would depict the Flash (or Wally West for that matter) as a speed demon who could run fast in the blink of an eye. Superstrength isn't his forte--it's how he can save the day in such a quick.

With the speed--it's not to suprising that the creators have made him into an aloof superhero. Place him with the Batman and he'll get grilled every which way (re: Paradise Lost). Place him with the Green Lantern (maybe Superman or Jonn Jonzz) and he's somewhat under control.

He's better when he's in a show surrounded by a Superman (or a Batman, dare I say?)--individually I don't think he's a sell by himself (re: the 1990 live series).

There has got to be a way for him to control his speed--he can go fast at the speed of light or at the speed of mach 5.

Scarlet Speedster

03-17-2002, 10:23 AM

I never really saw this as much of an issue for the following reasons:

1. He loves to showboat for the crowd. You can't tell me he doesn't enjoy dazzling the crowds watching the chase with his slalom-like dodging and hurtling of cars.

2. As someone mentioned, he doesn't have super strength. Once he reaches the van, he can't pick it up or drag it to a stop, so maybe he was trying to figure out exactly what he was going to do.

3. It's an action television show. You can't very well have the showcase action scene of the first 10 minutes over in 2 seconds! You've got to demonstrate some of the hero's powers (whirlwinding the debris, scaling the side of the building).

4. You've got to slow down the Flash anyway for this show. If he moves approaching the speed of light, he can defeat any villain in the blink of an eye. That doesn't make for very good storytelling. (Although I would like to stop seeing him tripped up by flying rocks as he was in 'In Blackest Night' and 'Paradise Lost'. If this guy can move this fast, he can dodge a rock. I'd hate to see bank robbers escaping the Flash by using their 'Flash-Stopping Bag of Stones'.)

DerekPowers

03-17-2002, 01:35 PM

since JL first aired i thought flash seemed kind of sluggish. im thinking it may be the effects they use to animate his speed, you can see him all the time, so he doesnt look like hes going to fast.

but in "the brave and the bold" he did seem even slower. BUT did you notice how fast he was going when he turned that falling debre over that couple into a tornado and trashed it? he was going REAL fast, you couldnt even see him, just red lines. so he obviously is capable of going faster.

Id like to see him go faster from time to time. i understand he was dodging stuff and maybe wanted to relish in the chase alittle, but in "speed demons" he was much faster, faster than superman. and superman has moved pretty fast in stas, pretty darn fast, so i think itd be nice to see flash kick it up a notch from time to time. peace.

JohnStewart-GL

03-17-2002, 02:36 PM

He was also fast when the scientist chick tried to shoot him. and when he knocked solivar down.

BeastBoyWonder

03-17-2002, 05:48 PM

Hah, I loved that. "You blinked," he says before casually rendering the gun useless.

Jimmy Kustes

03-17-2002, 08:52 PM

The Flash hasn't used his "vibrating to make stuff explode" technique yet has he? Do you remember GL saying to the cops "you think you could have held him here with a pair of handcuffs?" in B & B Pt.1?

You think GL was refering to the Flash running away really fast or vibrating out of the cuffs? I guess it is left up to the imagination. :rolleyes:

Ed Liu

03-17-2002, 10:02 PM

Howdy,

Originally posted by Duncanzits
You think GL was refering to the Flash running away really fast or vibrating out of the cuffs? I guess it is left up to the imagination. :rolleyes:

Just for the record, I thought Flash vibrated out of the cuffs. That's why he tossed 'em back at the cops at the end of the scene before he left the interrogation room.

The REAL question is where did GL get the money to pay for the Flash's hotdogs and pay his bail? =8^).

-- Ed/Ace

The Green Hornet

03-17-2002, 10:04 PM

who says any was even set? maybe GL knew the judge

better yet maybe he "made" money

or wayne enterprises took the hit ;)

MILatino

03-24-2002, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Scarlet Speedster
You've got to slow down the Flash anyway for this show. If he moves approaching the speed of light, he can defeat any villain in the blink of an eye. That doesn't make for very good storytelling.

Yes, but not only that. If he moves too fast, you have the following hazards:

• If he hits Mach 1 he'll create a sonic boom. You can't have him doing that every time he chases someone.

• He can't just grab people out of harm's way. If he did that to you your neck and limbs would just snap off due to whiplash. He has to slow down enough not to break off anything he carries off.

• His motions cause heat friction on the surface and air; and it also causes air displacement. He has to control that or it'll get in the way. Take for example in the live-action series when his girlfriend visits and he tries to clean house. He ran so fast that the rug started smoking and his clothes and magazines and lighter items in the room just came off the shelves and blew around.