Is College a Waste of Money?

[Classic Speedy]

This has been on my mind this year. The question: Do you think college is a waste of money? I hesitate to use the word "scam" that's been making the rounds on the internet lately, because it's not like they're taking money and giving you physically nothing, but "waste" seems more appropriate.

Now keep in mind I'm not talking about tech or trade schools that teach you a specific skill, or hard sciences like medical and chemical jobs, which require a lot of training in order to be competent at a job that not everyone is cut out for. Those are OK. I'm talking about liberal arts degrees and the like, where the emphasis is put on filling your brain with a lot of "theories" but nothing tangible that helps you get ahead in the real world workplace.

I was thinking about my own experiences. I went to a four year school and got a Bachelor's in Media Studies. Sounds great, but when I really think about what I accomplished in college, it's depressing. The purpose of a four year liberal arts degree, they say, is to provide you with a "well-rounded education". Now that's all well and good in theory, but here's the problem: When you dabble in everything, you're skilled at nothing. I took numerous courses that may have been intellectually interesting, but were completely useless in the post-graduation sense. Sure, it's interesting to learn about different theories of psychology, sure, it's educational to learn the history of Western civilization, and sure, I didn't mind hearing about the plight of minorities, but it doesn't exactly help me get a job, does it? If I went to school to learn how to get a job in the media field, why waste my time with these other courses that only exist to fulfill education requirements mandated by the school board? Just seems like an underhanded way to get more money from people under the guise of giving you a variety.

To further drive this point home: My math course, I don't remember a darn thing from it. It dealt with number theories and various counting systems and such. By contrast, a course I took in high school, Consumer Math, was actually really useful for real life. They taught me how to balance a checkbook, do my taxes, make a budget, take out a loan, etc. I don't use anything from that college math course in my daily routine.

Or how about my science course? I took geology. Again, interesting from an intellectual standpoint, but if I wasn't going into the geologic field, how does this benefit me? Like math, I've forgotten nearly everything six years later. I can't tell different rocks apart to save my life, and if you asked me to solve a mathematical equation based on plate tectonics, I probably couldn't do it.

Or god, what about those useless theater courses? Unless I'm going to be acting in a play or performance piece as a career, it's useless except as a fun diversion for an hour or two a week. The same goes for public speaking courses, too. In what job would someone who's fresh out of college have to speak in front of people on a regular basis, in a professional manner? Maybe if you miraculously become a CEO at age 24 and have to regularly make keynote speeches, but other than that, I am honestly wracking my brain trying to think of when it's truly important to look professional in front of a large group of people.

Creative writing, that's a crock. There's nothing in that course that you couldn't learn from a much cheaper book. Health? Just a repeat of what I learned in high school. 3D design? Well that's great if I go into sculpting clay ash trays for a living. Freshman seminar? Waste of time. Taught us nothing; just touchy-feely stuff related to adjusting to college life.

And don't even get me started on the three Bible courses I was required to take (I went to a religious university). Look, I have no beef with the Bible. And in truth, I learned some interesting stuff. But again, it offered nothing to my resume unless one was to become a minister or wanted to write a book on theology. And even then, you'd need a LOT more Bible courses for that to be even remotely useful if that was your desired career path.

The only courses off the top of my head that were somewhat useful to me personally were Video Production I and II, which simulated how a news room taping works, as well as gave us news reporting experience by recording a story and then editing it into a package; my internship in L.A., which wasn't a blast, but taught me real world skills that I use in my current job; and Intro to Filmmaking, which taught me logic in editing and other practical filmmaking skills. Actually, the L.A. semester in general was really good. They were more useful to me because they related to my interests and taught things that someone who would go into camera work should know and not have to be taught while they're on the job by someone aggravated and inclined to ask, "What did they TEACH you in school?"

And when I think about the money I wasted on books for each course... it makes me sick. Not only are they ridiculously overpriced, but occasionally the profs don't even use a book you purchased except for maybe one or two class periods. And other times, they flat out lied to you, saying "You'll NEED this book in this course", and then you really didn't, for all means and purposes. And then when the semester's over, you're stuck with these books that you'll never read again. Yes, you can sell them, but half the time the book buy-back people won't accept them because it's an "old edition" or they have too many copies, or give you pennies for something you paid a lot of money for. (and I'm now aware that I probably should've just put them up on Amazon or Ebay to get more money for them, so don't bother pointing that out)

Flash forward to post-graduation. It took me about a year and a half to get hired. And it should be noted I actually started the job search back when the economy was still doing OK. Not great, but OK. So I think another obvious reason why it took me a while to get hired was because my college resume was nothing special. Sure, I graduated, but so what? Thousands do the same every semester. What makes me stand out from the other hundred Media Studies graduates? And even when I -did- get hired at a place relevant to my interests, it was something that, in all honesty, someone out of high school could've done and aren't payed a whole lot (I DO get medical and dental, but still). Granted, my internship helped to ease into it easier, but my point is, the job didn't require any major skills that should be taught in higher education.

Now luckily, I wasn't saddled with massive student loans after college because I was fortunate enough to have generous parents who were able to pay for my education. And I've thanked them for that. I'm not rubbing it in, those of you with loans, I'm just stating a fact. But it still depresses me to think how much money they used to send me to college, when at most I got a few courses that were actually useful for the career path I was looking at.

Sorry if this was rambling. It's been on my mind and I needed to get my thoughts down somehow. Hope it wasn't too emo. And I want to emphasize, I have nothing against expanding one's mind or learning new things. I just am starting to question if these assets are truly useful in finding a post-college job, and I think the cost of college far outweighs what you get out of it. So what do you think?

[Fool's Gil]

Personally, imho, if you don't know what you're going to college for/don't know what you want to be and you just take a couple of classes with no plan, or you choose to get a liberal arts degree or something similar-no offense to you-then yes you're wasting money. I think most people look at college as High School 2.0, when they should look at it as [Insert Advanced Job] Training.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Well, studies have shown that having a college degree results in about about a million dollars in lifetime earnings over a high school degree, so I'd have to say no just from a cold hard numbers perspective.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa072602a.htm

Of course it is also not a waste of money because a good college will teach you about more than just facts, it'll teach you how to think and question and generally be a more educated person. I said a good college, I know that's not everyone's experience.

But it's true you can waste money on college at any college by not being focused or not having clear goals. Maybe you should have focused your electives more to things that would be more useful for you in your career. I wish, for example, that I had taken an elective grammar course and toughed it out in a college level math course because those things would have helped me in my career. More Spanish would have helped, too.

I do have to say that my core classes, internship and student newspaper practicum prepared me as well as was probably possible for the career I chose. It wasn't the college's fault that it was generally a low-paying career and I knew what I was getting into when I chose it.

Also, this may just be my experience, but I went to a Christian-centered college and it was terrible, for the most part. It really was High School 2.0. When I got out of there and got into a larger state school I really started learning a lot more.

Oh, and another mistake people make is screwing around in college and not getting as much practical work experience as possible. Seriously, the more internships, practicums and other experiences you can have to build your resume, the better. You want to be a reporter? Go to the adviser of your student paper or TV or radio station the first day and ask what you can do. I'm sure there are similar situations with most other programs.

[Classic Speedy]

Personally, imho, if you don't know what you're going to college for/don't know what you want to be and you just take a couple of classes with no plan, or you choose to get a liberal arts degree or something similar-no offense to you-then yes you're wasting money. None taken. That's really more a jab at the colleges and the way they're set up, anyway.
Of course it is also not a waste of money because a good college will teach you about more than just facts, it'll teach you how to think and question Funnily enough, I think I've developed my logic, questioning, and reasoning skills a lot more just from participating in this forum than any of my college courses. No lie. (my film criticism course aside, that is. That was pretty useful)
Maybe you should have focused your electives more to things that would be more useful for you in your career. I would've if I had the room to do so. But like I said earlier, and I'm sure you know, many liberal arts colleges require you to take a set number of courses that don't pertain to your career choice. It kind of limits the amount of courses in your chosen field that you can take, unless you plan to stay past four years.

I mean, I pretty much knew I wanted to work in the media field when I entered college. In what capacity, I was flexible, but I wasn't one of those people who changed majors every semester because they couldn't decide or didn't care how long it took to graduate.
Oh, and another mistake people make is screwing around in college and not getting as much practical work experience as possible. Seriously, the more internships, practicums and other experiences you can have to build your resume, the better. You want to be a reporter? Go to the adviser of your student paper or TV or radio station the first day and ask what you can do. I'm sure there are similar situations with most other programs. Indeed, and I wish I had known that when I was in college. Like I said, I -did- have a semester-long internship and I -did- work at the college radio station for a semester, but I could've done so much more if I had known how important it was.

[ABrown]

Ya know what. I'm gonna go ahead and say yes, it is a waste of money. These days, the majority of people are getting a college education. So having graduated college doesn't set you ahead of anyone.

People who are in demand: construction workers, or people who can repair things like refrigerators, air conditioners, etc. My friends who have college educations, they have decent jobs. But it's my friends who are in construction that make the really good money.

[purplehairedwonder]

I won't say college is a waste of money (my loans are through the roof and I'm looking into grad school as it is), if for no other reason than I see freshman coming in needing it. I work as a tutor in our Writing Center and we have people from ranging from freshman to graduate students who simply do not know how to formulate a good sentence, create a thesis, or organize a paper. Being able to communicate with the written word is essential and I feel like there should be MORE English/writing requirements than most colleges already have. Of course, I'm a biased English major, but when even professors are handing out assignments with misspellings and poor grammar, something has to give.

I see where you're coming from with the liberal arts degree not being job-oriented. But there is something to be said for simply being well-educated. People who have awareness of some kind of higher level math, history, science, etc generally have better cognitive abilities on the whole because they've had to think about many different things and even adjust how they think. That will help in all kinds of aspects in your life down the life, whether you directly see the results or not. Not everyone, however, takes advantage of those opportunities--and for those people, I think college is a waste of money. But for the people who want to learn, who want to be well-educated, who want to be knowledgeable about the world around them, then no, college is not a waste.

It does seem like, though, with more people heading to graduate school after college because the economy is bad, that soon having a graduate degree is going to be akin to what having a college degree is now. Since you need college to get to graduate school and a good college is going to cultivate the skills you need to succeed in graduate school, then again, no it's not a waste of money.

[Shawn Hopkins]

But like I said earlier, and I'm sure you know, many liberal arts colleges require you to take a set number of courses that don't pertain to your career choice. It kind of limits the amount of courses in your chosen field that you can take, unless you plan to stay past four years.


But you still have electives that you can choose between to meet, say a math, science or humanities requirement. What I'm saying, and hopefully people who might be reading this and starting college soon are listening, is instead of just considering those throwaways and taking something just because it looks interesting, think seriously about which elective would help you more in your career. There was no Spanish requirement for my J-School, for example, but it would have helped me in my job. College-level grammar would have helped, too.

As for the internships, that's a mistake a lot of people make. Heck I worked for two years on my college paper and had a semester long internship at the second largest paper in the state and I don't think that was enough.

[ThePRPD]

I wish paying for it would be easier without resorting to loans that will take decades to pay off or resorting to join the military...

[Roman Legion]

Depends what you do while you're there. The economy still hasn't recovered, so everything's looking worse for everyone, but in a few years' time, I expect that several majors will definitely have been worth the cost.

There are other scam-like elements to higher education nowadays. Anyone who's been in college long enough should know that between books, housing, and food, universities are screwing you over every which way they can imagine. You can thankfully minimize or avoid some of those expenses. What ought to be criminal is how some can claim ridiculously low tuition while shifting the majority of their charges onto an unadvertised laundry list of mandatory fees. Loans, especially last-minute emergency private loans, are another issue.

Everyone should have some strategy going into college, but worthwhile information is scarce. You can't trust half of what you read, even from expert sources. Watch where you spend your money. If there's a nearby community college with a decent reputation, most would be better off earning a two year degree then transferring. Check if they have agreements with other colleges regarding transfer credit and joint admission. Talk to the four year colleges you want to attend before beginning a two year program elsewhere. Some colleges are difficult to transfer into; they may recommend different approaches.

Did I do anything like that? Nooooo... :sweat:

--Romey

[RedNinja84]

I fill this way, there some people who should go to college and others who should not. If you are going to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect or anything job related you should go. If you enjoy the scholastic studies and enjoy learning and discussing various subjects than it's worth it. I was a history major but my job has nothing to do with my field of study. But I also think college is not cut out for everyone. Some people just go out into the job market and start working. If they are not going to get anything out of it than don't waste your money. I know plenty of people who went for one or two years and quit and they still have to pay back their student loans. We need people out their to be more skill oriented like plumbers and electricians and other trade jobs. So if you want to college for a good reason do it, if you don't know or feel like it than should feel ok to do whatever you want to with your life.

[Humble]

I won't say college is a waste of money (my loans are through the roof and I'm looking into grad school as it is), if for no other reason than I see freshman coming in needing it. I work as a tutor in our Writing Center and we have people from ranging from freshman to graduate students who simply do not know how to formulate a good sentence, create a thesis, or organize a paper. Being able to communicate with the written word is essential and I feel like there should be MORE English/writing requirements than most colleges already have. Of course, I'm a biased English major, but when even professors are handing out assignments with misspellings and poor grammar, something has to give.Grade school dropped the ball when it comes to teaching writing skills, so it's crap that they push their students to seek a higher education when they aren't prepared.

I was pushed to attend and all I have to show for it is debts. Only a few odd electives felt like they were worth the price of admission.

[Alshoff]

To further drive this point home: My math course, I don't remember a darn thing from it. It dealt with number theories and various counting systems and such.


Was it Discrete Math? A lot of its applications apply more to statistics than anything else.

[The Irishman]

The books certainly are! Seriously, why should I pay $150 for a book when I can get the [ahem] "International Version" for almost a third of the price? Sounds fishy to me.

But yeah, on the whole tuition fees thing, it probably is. I mean, I went to school in Ireland. The fees were GBP1200 for the year. I came out with the same education as someone here in the states and without any of the debt. Why does this matter? Well, to a perspective employer, I am probably willing to work for less than a US student saddled with so much debt.

However, the piece of paper with your name on it is something employers look for. I just hope my MBA is worth the cost in the long run.

[Sparticus]

It does seem like, though, with more people heading to graduate school after college because the economy is bad, that soon having a graduate degree is going to be akin to what having a college degree is now. Since you need college to get to graduate school and a good college is going to cultivate the skills you need to succeed in graduate school, then again, no it's not a waste of money.

It's already there. An AA is basically what a high school diploma used to be, a BA/BS is what an AA used to be, and a Masters is what a BA/BS used to be. The only thing that hasn't changed - and likely won't change - is a PhD. Post hole diggers will forever be post hole diggers. XD

Anyway, yeah, liberal arts degrees are fairly useless. I'm in my senior year of art school (illustration is a slightly usefull degree) and they're just now starting to teach us the business side of things. Frankly, I would have preferred business classes from year one - it would make summer freelance work much easier to drum up and/or manage. Instead, they make everyone take fluff liberal arts courses of varying degrees of usefulness and interest. And by fluff, I mean, FLUFF - usually just showing up was all you needed to pass the class (and somehow people still managed to fail at that...).

I think the best way to go into it is KNOWING that the degree is relatively useless. That way it's more about personal growth an exploration. And, anyway, it's never 100% useless - some employers just want to see that BA on your resume and couldn't care less what your major was so long as you graduated.

What irks me is the whole issue of "it's not what you know, it's who you know." You can buckle down, and work hard in college, graduate at the top of your class... only to go directly to the unemployment line 'cause you're now overqualified for McDonalds, but don't have enough experience to actually work in your field (not that they're hiring anyway). Meanwhile, the dude who always missed class and barely graduated lands one helluva good job pretty much only because they happened to hang around with the right people during that time they should have been in class or doing their homework. :shrug:

[defunctzombie]

Yeah, my degree is basically a waste for me. I'm in psychology right now, but the only real class I hold worthy is my Japanese class. I'm hoping to get accepted for a summer in Tokyo, and combine that with the number of classes I've taken with Asian elements (world music, Japanese culture, race relations, and the language) and you end up with a specialization very different than what the degree is. Am I going to find a job with that specialization in farm fresh central Pa? No. PSU has all these silly bachelor of arts requirements that really do feel like a waste of money. I understand how stats is important in psychology, but do we really need a 4 credit class in it? No.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Sparticus brings up another mistake that some people make. Yes, you need to network, even in college, and if you're overlooking those opportunities you aren't getting everything you could for your money. Meet and get to know as many people as you can in your industry. I got my first J job because I had some good recommendations for people I had been in contact with during college. I don't think that was unfair, all they were telling the paper was that I had potential as a reporter and that was true, but I wouldn't have gotten the job without those contacts. Wouldn't even have heard of it, since it was suggested to me by a supervisor at my internship.

[JasonFox]

I have student loans like the next guy but I got a job in grade 9 and saved for and saved for. It's not a waste of money from my perspective but all the money you spend you gain back with a college education.

[stephane dumas]

I don't know if it's the same situation in Canadian colleges/universities. However in Quebec we got some post-secondairy (counterpart of post high-school) education known as "CEGEP" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEGEP There at least one class they should had put as an option here: philosophy, I don't know why they required it if you decide to work in construction or being an engineer. It reminds me of a comic strip moment from Kevin and Kell http://www.kevinandkell.com/2009/kk1004.html

On a slightly off-topic note, I founded a video about college entitlements on Reason magazine website http://reason.com/blog/2009/07/14/now-playing-at-reasontv-the-ca

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

When you go to college you're basically buying a resume point. A high priced way just for a one-line note in a resume, but usually, it makes a difference.

Other than that, I pretty much agree that college is a waste of time from a practical sense. I've learned more about life through independent research than post-secondary education.

[Beefy]

It depends on what college you go to and what your career path is.
Try to find a school that specializes in teaching the career you're looking to get into.

Mandatory tacked on courses that don't have anything to do with your career might make you a more well-rounded person, but will they help you in your job or everyday life? No, and you'll just forget everything you learned anyway. "Use it or lose it" as they say.

If you're dedicated enough you can get the textbooks the colleges use and just memorize the content on your own without taking any classes.
However, reading books can only go so far. You need hands-on experience with the tools/equipment/locations that your career utilizes. If the college courses give this hands-on experience, then it's worth it. If they do not, then find an internship at a place that will give hands-on training.


I won't say college is a waste of money (my loans are through the roof and I'm looking into grad school as it is), if for no other reason than I see freshman coming in needing it. I work as a tutor in our Writing Center and we have people from ranging from freshman to graduate students who simply do not know how to formulate a good sentence, create a thesis, or organize a paper. Being able to communicate with the written word is essential and I feel like there should be MORE English/writing requirements than most colleges already have. Of course, I'm a biased English major, but when even professors are handing out assignments with misspellings and poor grammar, something has to give.
This is another part of the problem. People should have already learned the general area stuff like writing and grammar, math, and history in high school. College should be for really diving into what you need to learn for the job/career/field you're pursuing.

In order to make college more useful, we have to start with what's being taught in high school. I was fortunate enough to go to a high school where in junior and senior year they used college-level textbooks. These were not advanced placement classes either. If you're going to have to learn this level of stuff in college anyway, why not learn it earlier? Get it out of the way in high school, that way you don't have to relearn it in college and don't have to spend your time and money on it in college either.

[PC!]

I know people who have graduated college for years and have decent paying jobs. Ironic that most of the money they earn at their jobs are going to paying off their college debts instead of actually advancing their financial situation.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Toonzone is kind of a young crowd. One reason college might not seem to be worth much to you guys now is, well, you aren't reaping the benefits of it yet. Once you get your loans paid off and advance in a career you couldn't have started in without a college degree, it'll seem like a more worthwhile investment. I've got my own office and write for a living now. I'm not cut out for manual labor and my dad made me promise him when I was a boy that I would never be a coal miner anyway (limiting my high-paying non-college job options in Eastern Kentucky to none), so without college I probably would have worked my way up to assistant manager at some crappy retail outlet or restaurant by now and would go home every night and hate my life. So I think I got the better end of the deal.

[ThePRPD]

I'm joining the Coast Guard reserves so I can go to college...

[purplehairedwonder]

This is another part of the problem. People should have already learned the general area stuff like writing and grammar, math, and history in high school. College should be for really diving into what you need to learn for the job/career/field you're pursuing.I agree. It just amazes me how poor the education so many kids are receiving in high school is. My high school was pretty high level--and I didn't realize that until I compared my education compared to my peers. It's just sad when people get into college (and graduate school even, because I've tutored grad students who didn't know much more about writing than these poor freshman) with such little education under their belts.

[Tapout]

I wouldn't call it an outright waste, I just don't believe its worth what you have to pay for it anymore. I'm glad I cut bait after a year of junior college because I know now if I had gone on to a university I'd be up to my eyeballs in debt with nothing to show for it. I just wish I had some clue as to how to find a decent trade school so I could get out of suicide-inducing retail.

[Neo Yi]

This is pretty convenient because the idea of college and the issue of money has been a constant state on my mind for years. I'm only in my early 20's, but I haven't dived into one (though I did try and apply before) as of this writing (yet) and part of the issue stems from loans and money problems, especially with today's current economic problem (rich my family ain't).

I mean, while it's pretty much noted that an education after high school is likely to nab you a job quickly and better then one who hasn't, I still have this irritating fear that I might end up wasting my money and not getting what I need for a future career. At the least, I fear I may not be good enough. And even if I did pass, I still fear I won't get the job I need and will have to try and think of a way to pay off potentially four years' worth of loans. In short, I'm pretty scared about the prospect of college.

At the very moment, I'm thinking about joining my nearby community college, but does anyone know if community colleges are worth it or at least a good start?

[Nightflower]

When you go to college you're basically buying a resume point. A high priced way just for a one-line note in a resume, but usually, it makes a difference.

Other than that, I pretty much agree that college is a waste of time from a practical sense. I've learned more about life through independent research than post-secondary education.

This. A bachelor's degree may not mean you are guaranteed a job nowadays, but without one - even a liberal arts degree - it will become significantly more difficult to qualify for an increasingly large number of jobs.

Even with a liberal arts degree, it's always good to have a plan with your education, even if it's often difficult for high school students to know what they want. My friend majored in art history, but she also worked her way up the art history student association and learned soft skills like event coordination. She also became a franchise manager for a painting company during the summer (Which is a pretty crappy job but you can learn pretty good business skills if you stick it out). When she graduated last year, she was hired by the Art Gallery of Ontario. It's obviously a good fit for someone who studied art history, but the point is she did other things to complement her degree and set herself above all of the other people who wrote essays about neoclassic architecture.

I went straight into a business program after high school when I really wanted to do animation. At the time I resented it, but I think my business degree has probably helped me more than an animation diploma ever did (Which, incidentally, I did go back to school for and don't regret doing that, either).

I'm not going to say that a good deal of postsecondary education isn't exploitative nowadays, but I don't think learning is ever a mistake or the wrong thing to choose - even if it is terribly overpriced.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Aside from all the other advice, please don't underestimate the usefulness of those courses you see no use for you. Sometimes I look at the actions of people around me and I can't help thinking "what I wouldn't give for these people to have better sense of historical perspective."

[Rud]

Ehh, i just started College and im undecided on my major, but im thinking Political science, is it worth it? Seriously the political science thing is just a vague idea, i got no idea what im doing, so is it worth spending the money to go to college when i don't even know what im going to do yet?

[Wonderwall]

I only see it as a true waste if the person or people who are going have no plan, no passion for what they're in, and are too stupid to get out before their debt becomes astronomical. Far too many people who went to my school were a bunch of slackers and one criticism I had is that we don't have any kind of screening process.

I can think of a handful of people that I knew personally at school who thought they could just coast along and if they fail a class, they just keep taking it again without really trying any harder the second or third go around. Somehow they eventually graduated, not like it mattered as not a single one has a job in the industry they went to school for and are bagging groceries at IGA grocery or working at McDonalds. I'd bet good money that they probably don't see it as a big deal that they're 30+ grand in debt.

[Grenzer]

I think in theory higher education is valuable, and that includes the liberal arts. Over the past few decades however, the American system has undergone a massive increase in size while seeing a corresponding drop in quality. It has become all about the money, and it has had a devastating impact on an entire generation of young people.

First of all, we have developed a pernicious idea in this country that everyone needs a college degree: that everyone has a right to go to college and earn a degree. That the traditional blue-collar, mercantile and agricultural jobs of our forefathers are both unnecessary and undignified for citizens of a First World nation. This is, how should I put it... horse s***. Now understand, I do not want to come off as vulgar, but I feel this has to be put in the starkest terms possible, because all too often we do not give it enough attention.

I could talk about personal anecdotes about the sort of people you meet in college who lack either the brains or the drive to learn in college, or the loads of useless courses that teach nothing of value even on a theoretical basis, but enough people on this thread have commented on that already. I would be just preaching to the chior.

Instead, I want to present some evidence to you about what is happening in this country; young people who get lured into crushing debt by a system that is increasing its costs every year far beyond the normal rate of inflation. All the while this system spends its gains on useless infrastucture projects and stupid programs that do nothing to enrich the intellectual aspect of campus life. Even wors ethey have the gall to disguise these actions under a banner of enlightened humanitarianism on the inherent potential of all human beings to achieve.

Here is a graph showing the earnings of young college grads versus the rise of tuition cost from 1991 to early 2008:



http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/p32_26302_image001.gif

Source: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/09/earnings_of_you.html (You should really read the whole blog in general, it's extremely informative. The posts about the loss of earning power among college grads are easily searchable)

If this is not a red flag about the exploitative actions of the education industry (and they are an industry at this point, and very little else) over the past two decades, then I do not know what is.

My school was a chronic offender in this regard. They had a small endowment relative to their high status, and they compensated for this by charging large tuition fees year after year, with things only slightly improving since my graduation. They then poured that money into building new facilities, in order to imporve their standing in U.S. News and World Report's yearly rankings. I spent my freshmen year living next to a construction site, and let me tell you, that was one hell of an alarm clock the school gave to me. At least it was on the house, which is more then I could say about their other services.

I was lucky though. My parents saved and scrimped long before I ever went to school, and because of that (and being an only child) I escaped incurring debt; which was very fortunate, seeing as how hard the job market has been since I left school. Other people were not so lucky however. I hope GWO comments on this thread as well. We were classmates, and I'm sure he would back me up on this. I knew it was crazy even when I was still in college, but seeing what has happened since then has convinced me even further that there is something very wrong about all this.

This is not even scratching the surface of what has happened to our schools, but I think I have said enough for the moment. I will end my little rant on one other point. Other First World nations (and some less developed places as well) don't charge their students anywhere near as much as they do in the the U.S. And they often provide a higher quality of education as well, and the degrees have real power in the labor market. I'm ashamed as an American that we have given up so much ground to Russia, China, Germany, France and Brazil in this area, and one of the great challenges of the 21st century will be our attempt to regain the lead.

Or maybe we won't. We take a lot for granted in the U.S. about how great everything is, but in a few decades we might be singing a different tune.

Thank you for reading. :p

[Captain Highwind]

I thought my fine arts degree was pretty useless for a while, but really, I can just go after my masters and get into teaching if I wanted to. Museum curator and the like are also available. I don't really need it to go into something like illustration; it would help of course, because I've learned a ton of techniques, skills, and tools that I didn't know before I went to college.

I'm still just going to turn it into a law degree though.

[Juu-kuchi]

Echoing a number of previous responses, it really depends on how one spent their time in university. If you stayed the course, did your major, and didn't cause too much of a ruckus, then it wasn't a waste, if you were the complete opposite, then maybe it was.

Personally, despite the incurring of debt, university wasn't a waste of money for me. For somebody like me, who enjoys learning new things and ideas, university was a godsend. The subjects I studied may not have had any bearing with the major I had, but if I were interested enough they served as a good place to go back to whenever I am interested to or I find something I wish to do with it. It may not be applicable to any major you're going through, but at least it's an enriching experience if you let it. Your world perspective will widen a bit more and those moments of learning 'useless' knowledge may enrich an unexpected experience with the same thing years after. I'm probably being highly normative here, but then again, I like to be a worldly kind of guy.

Then of course there are the networks you make, the critical thinking skills you'll acquire, and so forth. People have already said that so I'll spare a repeat.

But I will say that university is also not a waste of money because of the opportunities that you can have there. Had I not been in university, I wouldn't have studied abroad. Yes I accrued more debt than I probably should have, but studying abroad is more enjoyable an experience than if I just vacationed there. Yes maybe you're not able to get a job there, but at the same time it speaks a lot for a person to be able to pass abroad and come back fairly intact. Then there are the things you may have a passing interest in high school. University, if it has the classes, can give you the proper push to learn them and give rise to independent study. If it were not for university I wouldn't be able to learn Japanese, Mandarin, and French. Of course that sounds rather stupid with regards to focusing on multiple languages instead of one (I was sick of studying Spanish though), but I have opened four doors I can enter into when I have the chance. Post secondary education may increase interest in independent study if you play your cards right. They set the foundation, and you build up on it even if they're long gone.

Although sadly, I am disappointed at the fact that a Master's seems to be the new Bachelor's Degree now. It makes me feel like I shouldn't have stopped going to school when I graduated (but at the same time, my mind was fragged from the ordeal so I wanted to get away from it). *sigh* Oh well, if it will get me a better job, win the approval of people who would like me more if I have it, then I shall. Sure I'll do it for myself, but if I am going to try and get it so I can get a better job, I'm may not be entirely doing it for myself am I?

[PC!]

At the very moment, I'm thinking about joining my nearby community college, but does anyone know if community colleges are worth it or at least a good start?

Community colleges are great, whether you just want an associates degree or want to transfer to another institution later. Don't underestimate community colleges. I have friends who are making more with a 2 year degree than many I know who went to school for 4 years or more.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Community colleges are great, whether you just want an associates degree or want to transfer to another institution later. Don't underestimate community colleges. I have friends who are making more with a 2 year degree than many I know who went to school for 4 years or more.

As someone taking advantage of community colleges, I must agree. It's especially nice if you have one that offers bachelors degrees unless you're seeing a profession where you absolutely positively need the reputation of a bigger college.

[Old Guy]

The question is too vague. It depends on the profession. If you wanna be a doctor, then yes, college is VERY important. If you want to be, say, a musician, then yes, college is a waste.

[GWOtaku]

posted by Grenzer:

Lots of stuffAsk and ye shall receive, though I haven't got much to say that wouldn't be repetition. Well, I will say a couple of things. The first is that while expansions and new programs can be important, as a general rule something is wrong when you are spending more on buildings than you do on hiring talent. The appeal of being a professor is job security via tenure, not how much you get paid, but so many colleges spend so much on building modern campuses.

I'll also say that, for me, college was indispensable. I grew up in a lot of ways there, I did learn a lot, I did develop my thinking dramatically, and I did broaden my horizons, and all in all I wouldn't trade it. Yeah, it's too expensive and probably too much of an industry these days, and education standards aren't what they could be all too often...but ultimately, it's rewarding if you're serious about it.

I'm kind of mixed on GCR's, but I would like to see less. I have nothing against science, but I took 9 credits in generalized science courses that had nothing to do with my interests or what I wanted to do. Nothing. I think college should be serious business and for the most part help students focus on what they're there for. They don't need to compensate for the deficiencies of high school education. Speaking of which, health class? Really? That actually exists. I abhor "easy" classes like that. I went out of my way to avoid them wherever possible.

[DBZNarutoWarrior]

I think that any type of degree is going to get you more "respect" and a better chance of making more money throughout your career. Now bachelor's degrees are becoming more and more necessary for many jobs.

Liberal Arts was always confusing to me. Many of my friends who were in it said it was a waste, only because halfway through they discovered a particular field of interest and they decided to get a degree in that field. So basically only two liberal arts degree courses were transferable to their new degree. I always looked at it as a "college sampler." I think it is still great and on par with any other degree though. It shows ambition, open-mindedness and the willingness to learn (which is pretty much the point of a degree aside from additional specific required knowledge in some certain fields ie: engineering, teaching, etc.).

As an employer, I would be looking for people with degrees first. That's what's most important now.

[defunctzombie]

My advisor had an article on his door about this exact topic:

University Implicated in Checks for Degrees Scheme (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30632)

:D

[The Cartoon]

Well in High School, I always feel like I don't need to learn 90% of it, but I stay for the High School diploma to help myself get the job at Disneyland I've always wanted. I'm not quite into College yet, but I've began researching where I want to go and the prices are way too high. I do think that College will teach more valuble things for your personal future, because you have a higher variety of options. Due to this, I wouldn't call it a waste of money. But that doesn't mean that it it's worth all of that money either.

[FireWarrior]

I was raised on the belief that a higher education was beneficial after high school. However I also understand other people's decisions not to attend college and go to work, or join the armed forces. Regardless my answer to this question is : depends. This isn't a clear cut answer. Like many people stated, what you do in college ultimately determines if it's a true waste or not. For myself I don't see it as a waste. I see it as an experience to be a more rounded individual and expose myself to higher education and different beliefs/opinions. It's also a great chance to network and get to know so many people who may be sharing the same aspirations I do. That being said I never acted stupid. Sure I had my fair share of wild parties and goofing around but I never let it interfere with my studies. And unlike many students today I came in with set goals and having a strategy to achieve those goals. In short, I knew what I wanted to do and how to go about doing it. So if you know what you want to do and you have the determination, then no it's not a waste of money.

However if you spend 4 years goofing off and not taking education seriously, then yeah BIG WASTE of money. So it depends on how you go about it. I've known people who dropped out of college and considered it the best decision in their life and that college was a waste. And then I've known people who completed graduate studies and consider it the best decision in their life. It just depends, that's all.

[Light Lucario]

I wouldn't say that it's a waste of money. By going to college, a person can achieve more understanding and knowledge about a variety of topics. Even if those certain courses don't help you land a job that's in your field, it does allow you to grow in your education. That is, of course, if a person treats their education as an important aspect of their lives by that point. Besides, I'm sure that most employers just want to know that you graduated, where exactly and maybe your major, but the whole point of a college degree is to further advance your chances of getting a job, as well as increasing your education.

I don't think that it's worth as much as the tuition charges though. I'm sure that the money goes into funding the college's different programs that helps students and staff members, but it also makes it harder for more students to get into college. Financial aid can help, but it might not be enough for a lot of students. Even though financial aid and student loans helps me out with the tuition, my parents still have to pay over $7,000 for each semester. Both of my parents work, but that doesn't mean that we have a lot of money to throw around. Granted, I go to a religious school too, thus the tuition is higher, but other students have commented how on the tuition is getting too high.

Besides that, the book stores are annoying. I spend around three hundred dollars for each semester and I'm lucky if I can get a hundred dollars back after selling them.

[Old Guy]

By going to college, a person can achieve more understanding and knowledge about a variety of topics. Even if those certain courses don't help you land a job that's in your field, it does allow you to grow in your education.

You don't need college for that. If you're really interested in a topic you can self-educate yourself. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. College is worth something depending on the career. If you want to be a doctor then you need college. If you want to be a lawyer then you need college. If you want to be an engineer then you need college. But if you want to be, say, a musician then you don't really need it.

[Master Moron]

For the most part, yes. Hell, I graduated from law school, and I have yet to see a return on my investment from that. There was actually a news report on 20/20 a couple months back that basically said that, yeah, college was a waste of money. It talked about how lots of people take massive amount of loans to pay for college thinking it will get them a job, then they get out and there are no jobs available in their field. It also talked about how much a better value learning a trade is. You can become a plumber or an electrician in about 2 years and make $40,000 a year. There's a lot of lawyers around here who don't even make that.

Oh, and on the topic of scams, keep in mind there are some "colleges" that are indeed scams. Any "college" that you see advertised on TV is very likely to be a scam and employers won't consider your "degree" to be legitimate.


Sparticus brings up another mistake that some people make. Yes, you need to network, even in college, and if you're overlooking those opportunities you aren't getting everything you could for your money. Meet and get to know as many people as you can in your industry. I got my first J job because I had some good recommendations for people I had been in contact with during college. I don't think that was unfair, all they were telling the paper was that I had potential as a reporter and that was true, but I wouldn't have gotten the job without those contacts. Wouldn't even have heard of it, since it was suggested to me by a supervisor at my internship.

Absolutely that's unfair. There may be someone who worked a lot harder than you during their college career and has the grades to prove it, but you got the job because you know someone. The sooner people realize that life is unfair the better, that way they can accept it and make the best out of it.


Toonzone is kind of a young crowd. One reason college might not seem to be worth much to you guys now is, well, you aren't reaping the benefits of it yet. Once you get your loans paid off and advance in a career you couldn't have started in without a college degree, it'll seem like a more worthwhile investment. I've got my own office and write for a living now. I'm not cut out for manual labor and my dad made me promise him when I was a boy that I would never be a coal miner anyway (limiting my high-paying non-college job options in Eastern Kentucky to none), so without college I probably would have worked my way up to assistant manager at some crappy retail outlet or restaurant by now and would go home every night and hate my life. So I think I got the better end of the deal.

How old are you? Because I'm 27 and have yet to receive any benefits from my college degree.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Absolutely that's unfair. There may be someone who worked a lot harder than you during their college career and has the grades to prove it, but you got the job because you know someone. The sooner people realize that life is unfair the better, that way they can accept it and make the best out of it.



How old are you? Because I'm 27 and have yet to receive any benefits from my college degree.

It only seems unfair if you don't realize that networking is an important skill. I could do my job really well but where does that get me if no one knows about it? I proved to these people I got to know, including the intern supervisor and some others, that I had potential as a reporter and I got a job out of it. My first boss hired me during the interview, even said "You come highly recommended." Now, that job was a nightmare and I quit after less than six months, but I might have still been sitting around my mom's house playing Dreamcast if I hadn't networked how I did. I'm fantastically shy and socially awkard, too, so if I could do it anyone could.

With kids just out of college it's probably more important than any other time, because one kid fresh out of college is the same as another to employers, they have no track record to judge you by and they could give a crap about your GPA (no one ever asked about mine, grades don't matter that much in college, honestly). So the guy or girl who makes the most and best contacts is going to be more likely to get the job.

And even if it is unfair, that's just the way it is. You just have to suck it up and deal, like you said.

I'm 33. I've been working steadily, in jobs I've liked that I couldn't have gotten without my degree and college experience, since I left college at 24 (I took semesters off for family issues). It had definitely started showing results for me by 27.

[DBZNarutoWarrior]

It's sad but true that networking is essential in most businesses today. Just look at Hollywood recently and all of the crappy movies they have been churning out. You think these writers/directors have a movie released due to their tremendous ability? Not at all. They just suck up.

At least employers look at resumes and college degrees during the hiring process. You may have to find other ways to move up more though. If the economy is terrible and your field is effected, then a degree will do nothing but give you a higher pay at some useless job (which could someday turn into a career if you "network").

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the degrees are worth something, just not upwards of $30,000+.

[Shawn Hopkins]

It's sad but true that networking is essential in most businesses today. Just look at Hollywood recently and all of the crappy movies they have been churning out. You think these writers/directors have a movie released due to their tremendous ability? Not at all. They just suck up.


Networking really isn't sucking up. It's about making friends and contacts in your industry who can help you find work. Sucking up is for after you get the job. You don't have to suck up at most places to get ahead, although I've found from hard experience that you do have to show a certain level of respect and deference regardless of whether your superiors deserve it or not. And if you find yourself in a job that does expect you to suck up, just get to networking and find another.

I just have a feeling that people who have a sour grapes attitude about networking and describe it in negative terms are people who are unnecessarily holding themselves back in life. At its core it's about making friends, what's wrong with making friends?

[mumbo]

College is only as much of a waste of money as you make it.

I mean, I see people wandering through general studies with no direction at all, taking courses they don't even really care about, and I wonder if it would be better for them to just take a break from school, think carefully about what they want to do with their future, and then start taking classes toward that.

There's also the fact that people will pay extra to go to a university just because of its name. I only pay $2000 tuition per semester - so $16000 for a bachelor's degree - to go to a pretty respected university for my Bachelor of Arts degree, and since it's close by I can still live at home too. No, it's not UBC, but who cares? With that tuition cost, I can pay for it easily with a combination of the money I earned through my school years as well as working full-time in the four months of summer and still make it out fine. Actually, I've saved up enough money to pay for the rest of my degree already. I haven't needed financial aid or any help from my parents or anything.

Textbooks? Yes, they're overpriced, but there's ways around it. Check the ads for students selling off textbooks for cheaper prices - you can usually swing using the previous edition of the textbook, just the page numbers are different and that's about it. Or split a textbook with a classmate. And then be sure to sell the textbook at the end of the semester privately - I tried doing the school textbook buyback, and they literally offered me $8 for a $130 textbook.

Now I'm in Canada so things may be a bit different from the States, but it really doesn't matter what school you start at, it matters which one you end at. So long as your credits are transferable, it's always best to do your Bachelor's degree in a cheap university and then if you're looking further (like how I'll be entering the postbaccalaureate Bachelor's of Education program, but that's only a twelve-month program), that's when you spring for the more expensive school. Just make sure your credits are transferable, I can't stress that enough.

And if nothing else, hey, at least you expanded your education. Having more education never hurts.


It's sad but true that networking is essential in most businesses today. Just look at Hollywood recently and all of the crappy movies they have been churning out. You think these writers/directors have a movie released due to their tremendous ability? Not at all. They just suck up.
Networking shouldn't be undervalued at all. Social skills and networking are their own set of skills that some people possess and some people don't, and those kind of skills are just a important for any job as being able to perform the specific tasks of that job.

Getting to know the right people is work too. Making the right connections is all part of working smartly, rather than working harder but more stupidly.

[cathedral]

well, the simplest way to ask that question is: is what i'm getting worth what i'm giving for it? in most cases, i'd say absolutely not. so my answer to you would be yes. BUT a higher education is essential nowadays. some kind of skill set is required if you want to make any serious money. college costs way too much and the prices only continue to rise AND most of the time all that matters to an employer is the degree (meaning you have at least most of whatever skill set). it all depends on how you use your time there and what you decide to explore, but, yes, i absolutely think a large part of college is a waste of money. anything you learn in college you could easily learn on your own just by having the desire to explore and read. ultimately you're paying for a piece of paper with a name on it. a state college would be equivalent to a cheap bag you found at goodwill. a school like harvard or the like would be equivalent to walking around with a prada bag. you don't have to say a word. the bag speaks for you. it doesn't matter how intelligent you are. no one wants to take that much time to figure that out. mostly all that matters is how intelligent you appear to be. sort of ranted there but... just my thoughts.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I've noticed a couple of people say that anything you could learn in college you could learn on your own. You've never been lucky enough to have a good teacher or mentor? There are things that a good teacher or mentor can teach you much more effectively than you could learn by reading any book. Also, colleges often offer opportunities to learn by doing, such as they offered me with our student newspaper and my internships. I could have have read every book out there about journalism and not learned as much as I did by actually doing it.

[Neo Yi]

Community colleges are great, whether you just want an associates degree or want to transfer to another institution later. Don't underestimate community colleges. I have friends who are making more with a 2 year degree than many I know who went to school for 4 years or more.

That's a nice relief to know. So far, it's my only option. Though I'll most likely still take out a loan, community colleges are often cheaper, so it'll at least ease my money worries a lot more then a regular college would. It's still a big consideration and it's mostly certain limits in my life right now that is preventing me from going. But hey, the skies the limit!

[Master Moron]

It only seems unfair if you don't realize that networking is an important skill.

No, it seems unfair because it is unfair. There's someone who I graduated with who failed the bar exam back in 2008, yet she's been working at a law firm for the past year. Yet, I worked hard to pass the bar and I'm struggling to find a job? That's ridiculously unfair. If it was fair she would have gotten fired as soon as her boss found out she failed the bar. There's plenty of more qualified people who would love to have her job.


Networking really isn't sucking up. It's about making friends and contacts in your industry who can help you find work. Sucking up is for after you get the job. You don't have to suck up at most places to get ahead, although I've found from hard experience that you do have to show a certain level of respect and deference regardless of whether your superiors deserve it or not. And if you find yourself in a job that does expect you to suck up, just get to networking and find another.

I just have a feeling that people who have a sour grapes attitude about networking and describe it in negative terms are people who are unnecessarily holding themselves back in life. At its core it's about making friends, what's wrong with making friends?

Of course networking is about sucking up. When you meet people you need to pretend to be interested in what they're saying, even when they're completely uninteresting. Also, when you call someone and they later return your call at a really bad time, you'd damn well better let them keep talking if you want their help.

[Shawn Hopkins]

No, it seems unfair because it is unfair. There's someone who I graduated with who failed the bar exam back in 2008, yet she's been working at a law firm for the past year. Yet, I worked hard to pass the bar and I'm struggling to find a job? That's ridiculously unfair. If it was fair she would have gotten fired as soon as her boss found out she failed the bar. There's plenty of more qualified people who would love to have her job.



Of course networking is about sucking up. When you meet people you need to pretend to be interested in what they're saying, even when they're completely uninteresting. Also, when you call someone and they later return your call at a really bad time, you'd damn well better let them keep talking if you want their help.

Maybe you need to work on your networking skills or at least on your contacts. Being more qualified, you could have beat her to that job if you'd beat her to the contacts. Unless it was like her daddy that got her the job or something, then I would agree that it was unfair.

Your examples are just examples of being nice to people. Of course you need to be nice to people if you want them to help you, and, yeah, sometimes you might even have to inconvenience yourself or be more polite than you would be with your regular circle of friends. What would you do otherwise, rudely brush them off or flat out tell them they're uninteresting?

I'm polite even to people that can't help me, even to bums on the street, so I don't see how that's a drawback. You can be nice and respectful without being a sycophant, heck, many people are put off by a brownnoser so usually it isn't wise. I've never had to kiss anyone's ass for any reason throughout my career, the people that have helped me have helped me because we're friends or they know I do good work.

Anyway, feel whichever way you want about it. Think it's completely unfair and think any networking relationship is a festival of ass-kissing if you want, but at least realize it's the way the world works and don't hold yourself back by taking some pointless stand against it. That's just giving yourself an excuse to fail.

[cathedral]

I've noticed a couple of people say that anything you could learn in college you could learn on your own. You've never been lucky enough to have a good teacher or mentor? There are things that a good teacher or mentor can teach you much more effectively than you could learn by reading any book. Also, colleges often offer opportunities to learn by doing, such as they offered me with our student newspaper and my internships. I could have have read every book out there about journalism and not learned as much as I did by actually doing it.

nope. never been that lucky. often times i'd have questions that were met with some generic answer read straight out of a book or my teacher would realize he/she had no idea what the answer was and tried to divert me onto something else. maybe you got to go to a great college. but where i went to college it didn't take more than a few weeks to notice that almost all of my profs were there just for the pay check. what's worse than that is they were surprisingly stupid. they knew exactly a certain set of facts and they'd come in and recite them. any kind of questions branching out from what they were talking about were impossible to answer. this was especially true in philosophy classes. the whole time they're just talking about who said this and who said that and i'm sitting there wondering "isn't the entire point of philosophy to think for yourself and look for answers yourself?" sure, they had read socrates/plato and descartes and this and that, but they didn't get it. it was like they threw away the bible and adopted a new one. believe me, i'm not such an arrogant person, so it was very scary and disheartening when i realized that when it came to true knowing, i had surpassed the people who were supposed to be teaching me.

i don't know. maybe i was just unlucky. but if you've ever had a professor who's just there for the money, you know the feeling. you can tell easily how little they care. it is not difficult to sense the lack of passion. and without that inspiration and excitement from a teacher, the student may as well be learning on his/her own.

the BIGGEST problem with college (now i know i am generalizing based on my experience but i believe it is probably true) is that no one understand the most fundamental part of learning. and that is: "it's not enough to know the answer. you have to do the math."

[Tay the Cat]

If you want to be, say, a musician, then yes, college is a waste.
As a musician who ain't famous and rarely sees much less a penny most days, all I've got to say?

O how wrong you are.

First off, you need to know music theory, and high school won't teach you that.

Also, you need to learn how to market yourself well. Marketing degrees are more or less a MUST if you want to get anywhere and make money. Most musicians are actually living in poverty because they don't know how to market themselves properly.

Either that, or play shows endlessly and then go into debt because you don't have an audience.

Either way, you gotta lose to even think about winning in the long term.

[Captain Highwind]

I wouldn't say musician's that wasted either. Music teacher, first off. And I'd imagine that there's a ton of job openings in the entertainment industry, which having a degree would really help throw the door open.

Music's such a vast medium with so many different outlets, having a degree and the knowledge earned from it seems like it would put someone in a better position than without it.

[Master Moron]

Maybe you need to work on your networking skills or at least on your contacts. Being more qualified, you could have beat her to that job if you'd beat her to the contacts. Unless it was like her daddy that got her the job or something, then I would agree that it was unfair.

Dude, she failed the bar exam. That means she's not licensed to practice law. She could only work as a law clerk until she passed the bar. That means there's a lot of things that she was legally barred from doing for a year. And no, I actually don't know how she got the job. Perhaps it was her family. I just don't see how anyone thinks it's fair that someone fails the bar and gets employed while there are hundreds of people who passed who don't have jobs. You can't really get more unfair than that.


Your examples are just examples of being nice to people. Of course you need to be nice to people if you want them to help you, and, yeah, sometimes you might even have to inconvenience yourself or be more polite than you would be with your regular circle of friends. What would you do otherwise, rudely brush them off or flat out tell them they're uninteresting?

Rudely? No. But, if someone normally calls me up when I'm eating dinner I tell them that I'm eating dinner and can't talk right now. If someone I'm trying to gain leads from calls then I'd damn well better let them keep talking for as long as they want even if my dinner gets cold.


Anyway, feel whichever way you want about it. Think it's completely unfair and think any networking relationship is a festival of ass-kissing if you want, but at least realize it's the way the world works and don't hold yourself back by taking some pointless stand against it. That's just giving yourself an excuse to fail.

Who says I'm holding myself back? I'm simply arguing that it's unfair and you keep on insisting that it's fair. How is it fair if someone who's smart and a hard worker gets passed up for someone who's dumber and lazier?

[Shawn Hopkins]

Dude, she failed the bar exam. That means she's not licensed to practice law. She could only work as a law clerk until she passed the bar. That means there's a lot of things that she was legally barred from doing for a year. And no, I actually don't know how she got the job. Perhaps it was her family. I just don't see how anyone thinks it's fair that someone fails the bar and gets employed while there are hundreds of people who passed who don't have jobs. You can't really get more unfair than that.



Rudely? No. But, if someone normally calls me up when I'm eating dinner I tell them that I'm eating dinner and can't talk right now. If someone I'm trying to gain leads from calls then I'd damn well better let them keep talking for as long as they want even if my dinner gets cold.



Who says I'm holding myself back? I'm simply arguing that it's unfair and you keep on insisting that it's fair. How is it fair if someone who's smart and a hard worker gets passed up for someone who's dumber and lazier?

Because selling yourself and networking are important skills, too. Like I said, no matter how hard and well you work if you don't know how to put yourself out there no one's going to know about it. One needs to network in almost any job, so if one can't do it in the job search perhaps the person that can is more qualified than them even if their GPA is slightly less. Of course there are egregious, extreme examples where cronyism and nepotism and looks trump complete incompetence like in your example, but in a lot of cases just out of college, it's just an edge that one person has over a roughly comparable person with the same qualifications in a very competitive job market.

But I don't care if anyone thinks it's fair or not, I'm just pointing out that sitting around and being resentful about it helps no one, they should instead use that time work on their own network.

This isn't even aimed at you, I'm sure you're doing what you need to do. I just don't want the younger people who read this forum getting it in their heads that the fact that the job hunt isn't based purely on academic and job-related merit is an excuse for failure.

You have to suck it up and get good at networking, too, if you want to beat other people to the good jobs. And you have to start doing it in college if you want to get the most for your college money.

[Tay the Cat]

Because selling yourself and networking are important skills, too. Like I said, no matter how hard and well you work if you don't know how to put yourself out there no one's going to know about it.
Exactly the point I made in regards to Old Guy's post regarding musicians.

Of course, many don't believe they need to do this, and end up never getting heard.

[PC!]

Networking is indeed important. All in all, like it or not, it's more about who you know than what you can do. I know people who totally suck at what they do but have high-paying jobs due to knowing people, whereas others who are great are struggling to get by because they don't know anyone.

Of course, networking is but one aspect of getting a good job.

[KPTitan]

So if you want to college for a good reason do it, if you don't know or feel like it than should feel ok to do whatever you want to with your life.

I wish everybody in the world felt that way, because now my grandma, amoung other family members and some friends of mine are looking down on me because I chose not to go to college...I almost got in a big arguement with my grandma about it when she was visiting us a couple weeks ago.:sweat: The way I see it, college is a choice, not a must in somebody's life. I did want to become a geologist or some other person working in the geology field at one point, but I'm just fed up with school all together. I can only understand math as far up as Algerbra 2, and that's about it....providing if I can remember any of it in the first place.

[Old Guy]

I've noticed a couple of people say that anything you could learn in college you could learn on your own. You've never been lucky enough to have a good teacher or mentor? There are things that a good teacher or mentor can teach you much more effectively than you could learn by reading any book. Also, colleges often offer opportunities to learn by doing, such as they offered me with our student newspaper and my internships. I could have have read every book out there about journalism and not learned as much as I did by actually doing it.

You could have gone to a 2-year vocational school for that. Of course the degree wouldn't mean the same, but if we're talking about plain ol' knowledge, then yeah, you didn't need a 4 year university for that.


As a musician who ain't famous and rarely sees much less a penny most days, all I've got to say?

O how wrong you are.

I don't know when you got into music, but people who got interested young started their education early. Most people don't pick up a guitar for the first time at 18. They started as kids. Took lessons as kids. Started a garage band in high school and playing house parties. By 18 you should have enough knowledge and experience to start hitting the clubs and seeing where that takes you.

NOW, if you want a back-up plan and decide to become, say, a music teacher just in case you don't make then a college degree would be helpful.

But to just become a musical performer and play clubs till a lucky break comes along, you don't need college for that.

[Tay the Cat]

But to just become a musical performer and play clubs till a lucky break comes along, you don't need college for that.
Even then, you need to network and market yourself.

If not, you'll never see a single penny.

U2 started in 1976, were signed in 1980, yet didn't make a profit until '85. In addition, they technically are not great muscians now, and were terrible when they first got together.

Bruce Springsteen never had a paying job in his life, and despite having a reputation as a great performer, didn't see a single penny for around 15 years.

Only band I can think of that actually did it the way you say and did get a quick proft, is Dave Matthews Band. Even they played weekly shows in Virginia and North Carolina until they got signed. Also, their violinist, Boyd Tinsley, is the only member of the band with ANY training. Dave is an awful guitar player by his own admission, bassist Stefan Lessard is good but not great, and while Carter Beauford can pull off some difficult drum fills, he's not technically proficient.

Now as for my own self...

I'm like Dave Matthews... great at songwriting, but an awful guitar player. I just don't have the patience to go through lessons and never did. I can promote my stuff all I want, but without marketing skills, there's a great chance I'll go nowhere. I'd love to pick up the necessary skills, but there's the money thing and all...

[Old Guy]

Even then, you need to network and market yourself.

But you don't need college for that. Again, if you want some sort of back up, like being a music teacher or something, then yeah, college is good. But just to go up there every night and perform you don't. As far as money is concerned, there's always day jobs. And your day job doesn't have to be flipping burgers at McDonald's. There's trade schools where you can get a quicky degree.

[Light Lucario]

You don't need college for that. If you're really interested in a topic you can self-educate yourself. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. College is worth something depending on the career. If you want to be a doctor then you need college. If you want to be a lawyer then you need college. If you want to be an engineer then you need college. But if you want to be, say, a musician then you don't really need it.

I'm not so sure about that. With the Internet nowadays, people can self-educate themselves, but I don't think that it could be the equivalent to a college degree. You could read different kinds of information and books that they teach in seminars, but having professors and classes in which you can talk about them and understand them more than just say, looking the summaries up on Spark Notes, is something. Granted, I'm an English Major student, so having discussions on the reading, along with writing about them, is a must for my education.

If you want to go into a science field, for example, then you would obviously have to go some kind of school. Just reading about it online doesn't quite feel the same as learning it in a classroom to me. Going to some kind of school feels more like you can get a degree to help you get a job in the future, as well as having growth in your personal education.

As for your comment about musicians not needing college, I also disagree. My older brother has played the clarinet for years. Some of my earliest memories of him involved going to some of his concerts in elementary school. He's been in some kind of musical orchestra throughout middle school, high school and college. Even though he did start at a fairly young age, he wasn't really ready to perform at clubs on his own. There are still things he needed to learn and put into practice, which is why there are colleges with music classes and college performances.

[Tay the Cat]

There are still things he needed to learn and put into practice, which is why there are colleges with music classes and college performances.
Exactly.

Some colleges are known for their music programs.

Berklee (devoted entirely to music) is the most famous, but Belmont University in Nashville also has a reknowned music program.

These programs also contain marketing classes, because they know that if you don't have the skills necessary to sell yourself, you won't get anywhere.

[Old Guy]

I think you guys are confusing needing college with college being helpful. If you want to be a doctor you need college. If you want to be a musician it's only helpful. So, that takes us back to the question being asked: is college a waste of money? Well, it depends. If you don't need it then it could be.

[Tay the Cat]

I think you guys are confusing needing college with college being helpful. If you want to be a doctor you need college. If you want to be a musician it's only helpful. So, that takes us back to the question being asked: is college a waste of money? Well, it depends. If you don't need it then it could be.
Project 86 lead vocalist Andrew Schwab decided to forgo college for music. He regrets not getting extra school. While his band did get signed to a major label, they still got the shaft. Now P86 is stuck playing small clubs when they easily have the talent to be playing arenas. Extra school, even for a musician, will get you so much further it's not funny.

Dave Matthews was a bartender before becoming a musician. He needed school to do that. While he didn't go to school for music, the skills he learned helped him immensely and DMB probably would probably still be playing local club shows in Charlottesville and Richmond if he hadn't learned those skills from being a bartender.

[Shawn Hopkins]

You could have gone to a 2-year vocational school for that. Of course the degree wouldn't mean the same, but if we're talking about plain ol' knowledge, then yeah, you didn't need a 4 year university for that.


No, not really. I really doubt the best journalism teachers and mentors are teaching associate degree programs at community colleges. I doubt community colleges offer the best practicum and internship experiences to their associates of journalism students. And I doubt that there are many networking opportunities available with the lack of the rest of it.

Also, you're right, an associate degree in journalism is pretty much no use in a job hunt. I've never even met anyone with one.

[Old Guy]

No, not really. I really doubt the best journalism teachers and mentors are teaching associate degree programs at community colleges. I doubt community colleges offer the best practicum and internship experiences to their associates of journalism students. And I doubt that there are many networking opportunities available with the lack of the rest of it.

Also, you're right, an associate degree in journalism is pretty much no use in a job hunt. I've never even met anyone with one.

Based on my experience you're wrong. The professor at the community college I attended worked as an editor for the biggest newspaper in the city. And I live in a major city, so this isn't some crappy small town paper. He got all his students internships there and the best ones got work afterwards. I, on the other hand, briefly got work at one of the local news stations and that was only with a community college education. In addition to my field being entertainment and not serious news.

But I guess this a networking example and not an actual education one. Either way, don't dismiss community college that quickly.

[Unwardil]

Darn, found this thread late, ah well, it's late... Or early and I'm in a soap box preaching kind of mood.

Now... How to say this in a way that won't sound offensive to people who have been to college/university.

The actual quality of the education you get in an instituion is based entirely off the fact that it is an institution. Knowledgewise, this means you're (theoretically) interacting both with other students and with knowledgeable proffessors about your chosen subject and it is through debate, mutual study and discussions and what have you that you really gain any meaningful knowledge. The stuff they make you write on tests, that can all be done entirely in a vacume, probably more effectively.

So then, if you're the kind of person that likes interacting with others in group settings and colaborating on projects and getting wickedly drunk and gaining fifteen to twenty five pounds in less than a month (and, hell, you're probably in the majority if you are, I won't deny that) then university is almost certainly a worthwhile investement, even if you do pay through the nose for the experience.

If however, you happen to be of the individualist persuasion, (unless you absolutely will not be given a first chance in your chosen field without a half way decent sounding diploma) university is almost certainly a complette and total waste of time and money. If you are entrepeneurial then you'll be the boss and you don't need a diplma telling yourself that you know how to do your job. Theoretically, you already know that and don't need the paper proof, or if you're an artist of some kind, you don't need the oppinions of the indoctrinated to tell you wether or not what you're doing is artistic. If what your doing is good, it will be recognized, and you'd be far better off spending what money you would be spending on a college education to get a head start on making stuff.

I've unfortunatly known plenty of musicians who've gone into school for music rough but exciting and oozing with atitude and originality and come out the other side of the machine sounding like every studio musician in the world. It breaks my heart that I told them it would happen too but there you go.

Now, I don't want to come off sounding anti educational here, far from it, but just for some people, the formal, institutional route to education is really not the preferable one.

This soap box preachment has been brought to you by Unwardil, redefining Lame since 2008.

[Strollymonster]

I won't say college is a waste of money (my loans are through the roof and I'm looking into grad school as it is), if for no other reason than I see freshman coming in needing it. I work as a tutor in our Writing Center and we have people from ranging from freshman to graduate students who simply do not know how to formulate a good sentence, create a thesis, or organize a paper. Being able to communicate with the written word is essential and I feel like there should be MORE English/writing requirements than most colleges already have. Of course, I'm a biased English major, but when even professors are handing out assignments with misspellings and poor grammar, something has to give.

I see where you're coming from with the liberal arts degree not being job-oriented. But there is something to be said for simply being well-educated. People who have awareness of some kind of higher level math, history, science, etc generally have better cognitive abilities on the whole because they've had to think about many different things and even adjust how they think. That will help in all kinds of aspects in your life down the life, whether you directly see the results or not. Not everyone, however, takes advantage of those opportunities--and for those people, I think college is a waste of money. But for the people who want to learn, who want to be well-educated, who want to be knowledgeable about the world around them, then no, college is not a waste.

It does seem like, though, with more people heading to graduate school after college because the economy is bad, that soon having a graduate degree is going to be akin to what having a college degree is now. Since you need college to get to graduate school and a good college is going to cultivate the skills you need to succeed in graduate school, then again, no it's not a waste of money.

Hey, a fellow Writing Center tutor! What are the odds of running into one here?

In any case, it's true that many gen-ed courses are useless. However, any college education can be worthwhile if you actually involve yourself in it. Don't just coast on your adviser's favorite class picks, make judgments for yourself.

I just started graduate school, mainly because the state is paying for it and I also don't want to try to start a career in this economy.

[Captain Highwind]

Theoretically, you already know that and don't need the paper proof, or if you're an artist of some kind, you don't need the oppinions of the indoctrinated to tell you wether or not what you're doing is artistic. If what your doing is good, it will be recognized, and you'd be far better off spending what money you would be spending on a college education to get a head start on making stuff.

It may not be necessary, but it's still a nice outlet for more resources that I would've never learned had I not gone to college. A whole bunch of art history there that, while I didn't absorb all of it, at least it gave me a better understanding of what is out there in the art world than if I was just blindly making art. It's just another venue, like art shows and museums, just a lot more critical and focused.

My entire art education had constructive criticism, but I really don't think it was based on "whether or not what I was making was art." If anything, my instructors helped me investigate the concept of art in general and to actually look at what I'm creating, so I can judge for myself what it is with a more knowledgable perspective. I really don't think I've walked out of college as a "machine" either because of that.

If there was a magic reset button that would give me my money back at the cost of what I've learned, I still wouldn't do it.

[Dudley]

Ya know, I've been thinking a lot about this too. I'm in an art college, and though they teach you how to get better and the ways of the industry, I feel kind of bad that I'm putting me and my family in debt to get a BFA I don't really need, to learn how to make cartoons. One of the reasons I go to college in the first place was for its status, which my college will definitely deliver upon. And as stated earlier, networking is really crucial. Unless you plan to be constuction worker, or a repairman of any kind, you're not guaranteed a job after you graduate. Networking will help you get a job a lot sooner

Thank god I'm minoring in animation. At least that industry is doing well.

[Sparticus]

It may not be necessary, but it's still a nice outlet for more resources that I would've never learned had I not gone to college. A whole bunch of art history there that, while I didn't absorb all of it, at least it gave me a better understanding of what is out there in the art world than if I was just blindly making art. It's just another venue, like art shows and museums, just a lot more critical and focused.

My entire art education had constructive criticism, but I really don't think it was based on "whether or not what I was making was art." If anything, my instructors helped me investigate the concept of art in general and to actually look at what I'm creating, so I can judge for myself what it is with a more knowledgable perspective. I really don't think I've walked out of college as a "machine" either because of that.

If there was a magic reset button that would give me my money back at the cost of what I've learned, I still wouldn't do it.

I'd say the feedback alone makes it worth it.


Ya know, I've been thinking a lot about this too. I'm in an art college, and though they teach you how to get better and the ways of the industry, I feel kind of bad that I'm putting me and my family in debt to get a BFA I don't really need, to learn how to make cartoons. One of the reasons I go to college in the first place was for its status, which my college will definitely deliver upon. And as stated earlier, networking is really crucial. Unless you plan to be constuction worker, or a repairman of any kind, you're not guaranteed a job after you graduate. Networking will help you get a job a lot sooner

Thank god I'm minoring in animation. At least that industry is doing well.

Screw need, it's something you want to do and have the balls to stick with. That's reason enough.