Is there anything or anyone that David Xanatos would find morally offensive?

[The Overlord]

In Gargoyles, Xanatos had a cool, indifferent attitude towards morality, he was completely amoral, he was willing to work with good and bad people to achieve his ends.

But is there someone or something that is so vile that Xanatos would be repulsed by this thing or person?

Since Disney bought Marvel, there is a good place to start, considering the Marvel Universe has its share of complete monsters.

[/URL]

Would Xanatos find someone like the red Skull repulsive, for example?
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Skull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Skull)

That's just a random example, if you think something or someone even more vile, post it.

[GregX]

Greg was asked about what Xanatos would think of Norman Osborn.

Greg thinks that X would be appalled by Norman's "parenting skills" but admire his Machiavellian tac. But that he could never imagine the two as friends.

As for Red Skull. He'd probably find Red Skull to be scum, but he'd also evaluate whether or not there was a way to exploit him should the situation come up. Xanatos plays things to his advantage. That's what he does. That's who he is.

[AlgeaX]

In Gargoyles, Xanatos had a cool, indifferent attitude towards morality, he was completely amoral, he was willing to work with good and bad people to achieve his ends.

But is there someone or something that is so vile that Xanatos would be repulsed by this thing or person?

I do think so, Xanatos is ruthless and doesn't care much for the rules of regular society but he's not a sociopath. I doubt he ever saw Demona as anything but a fanatical psychopath, but a fanatical psychopath with useful skills and resources that he could manipulate for his own ends. Xanatos had no time for her genocidal schemes as we saw in City of Stone.

He also regards vengence as something of a vice, this makes me think he'd also look down on other petty motives like bigotry or sadism. Of course if he can manipulate the bigots and sadists for his own ends all well and good, but that's not the same thing as condoning them.

That's just a random example, if you think something or someone even more vile, post it.

I do think Xanatos would show zero tolerance for anyone that threatend his family, be they Fox, Alex, Petros or even Renard to an extent.

[The Overlord]

Greg was asked about what Xanatos would think of Norman Osborn.

Greg thinks that X would be appalled by Norman's "parenting skills" but admire his Machiavellian tac. But that he could never imagine the two as friends.

As for Red Skull. He'd probably find Red Skull to be scum, but he'd also evaluate whether or not there was a way to exploit him should the situation come up. Xanatos plays things to his advantage. That's what he does. That's who he is.

Considering Xanatos was kinda screwed over by Demona, I assume he would wary of Der Skull, his plans seem to have no objective beyond malice, so dealing with hate filled fanatics seems like something Xanatos wouldn't want to do.

The Skull makes Demona look nice comparison.

What about Chaotic Evil characters? Would Xanatos want to deal with with loose canons who often don't have logically motives and are very unpredictible, people who have a sadistic desire to hurt others, because hurting others gives them pleasure.

[GregX]

Considering Xanatos was kinda screwed over by Demona, I assume he would wary of Der Skull, his plans seem to have no objective beyond malice, so dealing with hate filled fanatics seems like something Xanatos wouldn't want to do.

The Skull makes Demona look nice comparison.

What about Chaotic Evil characters? Would Xanatos want to deal with with loose canons who often don't have logically motives and are very unpredictible, people who have a sadistic desire to hurt others, because hurting others gives them pleasure.

If he can manipulate them to his benefit, of course he would.

[The Overlord]

If he can manipulate them to his benefit, of course he would.

Its a dangerous game to try and manipulate Chaotic Evil characters, who are often unpredictable and have motives that make sense to them alone. Its hard to manipulate people who don't follow a logical path, not impossible, but very, very hard, especially long term.

I also assume Xanatos wouldn't like to deal with such people, unless he had too, because Xanatos always struck me as a very logical character.

[creativerealms]

With Joker Xanatos would probably go the Luthor route and always invite Joker. Because while the Joker is impossible to control if you pass him over things will be even worse for you.

[GWOtaku]

I think the answer to the thread's question is a resounding yes, there are all sorts of things Xanatos would never do. Xanatos is an excellent advocate for his own self interest, but unlike truly evil villains I don't think he wishes ill on his fellow man. I mean, the Gargoyles fight him, but there's no such thing as a "we have to defeat Xanatos to save the city!" plot in Gargoyles. I don't count Future Tense since that was just a wacky, fantastical what-if scenario. In City of Stone, we see him teaming up with the Gargoyles to return New York's humans to normal.

Red Skull? There's no comparison between Xanatos and the true supervillains of comics. Xanatos is no bigot, he isn't some would-be overlord, he doesn't have a higher motive to fight for like Magneto and he certainly doesn't want to ruin the world or wreck the order of society. Who would he do business with then?

[GregX]

I think the answer to the thread's question is a resounding yes, there are all sorts of things Xanatos would never do. Xanatos is an excellent advocate for his own self interest, but unlike truly evil villains I don't think he wishes ill on his fellow man. I mean, the Gargoyles fight him, but there's no such thing as a "we have to defeat Xanatos to save the city!" plot in Gargoyles. I don't count Future Tense since that was just a wacky, fantastical what-if scenario. In City of Stone, we see him teaming up with the Gargoyles to return New York's humans to normal.

Red Skull? There's no comparison between Xanatos and the true supervillains of comics. Xanatos is no bigot, he isn't some would-be overlord, he doesn't have a higher motive to fight for like Magneto and he certainly doesn't want to ruin the world or wreck the order of society. Who would he do business with then?

What I am saying is that if he can find a way to manipulate and use these other villains to his own ends, of course he would. If there is an opportunity, he'd seize it. The other villain wouldn't succeed in their goals.

He knew Demona was out for the genocide of the human race. But he still worked with her, doesn't mean he'd help her. She was using Xanatos, Xanatos was using her, they were both using each other and they both knew it.

There is precedent there. So, if there was a way working with the Red Skull would benefit him, of course he would. Doesn't mean he'd let Red Skull win though.

[The Overlord]

What I am saying is that if he can find a way to manipulate and use these other villains to his own ends, of course he would. If there is an opportunity, he'd seize it. The other villain wouldn't succeed in their goals.

He knew Demona was out for the genocide of the human race. But he still worked with her, doesn't mean he'd help her. She was using Xanatos, Xanatos was using her, they were both using each other and they both knew it.

There is precedent there. So, if there was a way working with the Red Skull would benefit him, of course he would. Doesn't mean he'd let Red Skull win though.

I do think Red Skull is more morally offensive then Demona though, Demona at least regrets some her actions, it almost like she is trapped in cycle of hate and that is almost pitiable.

The Red Skull regrets nothing, he revels in his hatred and his sadistic desires go far beyond revenge, at least Demona has some basis for hating humans, the Red Skull hates people for no reason then his childhood sucked so he's going to take it out on anyone, even if they had nothing to do with crappy childhood. That's not revenge, that's far more twisted.

The Red Skull makes any version of Norman Osborn look like father of the year, at least Norman never tried to kill his child at birth, like the Skull did. even Demona loved her own daugther.

Gargoyles was interesting show in terms of villains, with most villains having some anti villain aspects to them, but I never seen Xanatos deal with a Complete Monster.

I think Xanatos could work with him and have a cool attitude about, but still be completely repulsed on the inside and goes out of his way to make sure he dies in a horrible manner in the end.

Anyway on another note, I bet Xanatos wouldn't like commies very much.

[GregX]

I do think Red Skull is more morally offensive then Demona though, Demona at least regrets some her actions, it almost like she is trapped in cycle of hate and that is almost pitiable.

The Red Skull regrets nothing, he revels in his hatred and his sadistic desires go far beyond revenge, at least Demona has some basis for hating humans, the Red Skull hates people for no reason then his childhood sucked so he's going to take it out on anyone, even if they had nothing to do with crappy childhood. That's not revenge, that's far more twisted.

The Red Skull makes any version of Norman Osborn look like father of the year, at least Norman never tried to kill his child at birth, like the Skull did. even Demona loved her own daugther.

Gargoyles was interesting show in terms of villains, with most villains having some anti villain aspects to them, but I never seen Xanatos deal with a Complete Monster.

I think Xanatos could work with him and have a cool attitude about, but still be completely repulsed on the inside and goes out of his way to make sure he dies in a horrible manner in the end.

Anyway on another note, I bet Xanatos wouldn't like commies very much.

Yes, Demona loves her daughter. Does Demona have any regrets? I think she's too busy pinning the blame for all those regrets and mistakes on other people to regret them for herself. One day, yes. She is not a Complete Monster.

But, also keep in mind, no one knew Angela even existed when Xanatos and Demona were working together. Hell, Xanatos didn't know much about Demona's past either. She withheld a lot, and she lied about a lot.

"This is how I lived all these years, a spell stolen from the Grimorum Arcanorum. With it we can steal one minute of life from everyone who sees and hears the spell."

Yes, she's a big fat liar.

So, as far as we know, what did Xanatos know about Demona? That she was once Goliath's mate. That she was immortal. That she had a burning hatred for humanity. That she sought the complete eradication of human kind (and she made no effort to hide that). That she was a powerful sorceress. That she was using him. And that she could be useful to him in turn.

There's what the audience knows, and what the characters know. Before "City of Stone," Demona may as well have been a Complete Monster.

Besides, Xanatos is not one to be wasteful. He may hate the Red Skull, but it's not his style to do the world a favor and off someone who may potentially be of use to him.

That's who David Xanatos is.

I am of course speaking of Xanatos as he appears in the first sixty-five episodes, and the comic book. Not TGC.

[The Overlord]

Yes, Demona loves her daughter. Does Demona have any regrets? I think she's too busy pinning the blame for all those regrets and mistakes on other people to regret them for herself. One day, yes. She is not a Complete Monster.

Ah, but the end of City of stone, for a brief moment, Demona realized she was the architect of her own misfortune and felt sad about that, before she went back to blaming humans for everything. That's the type of self reflection many villains lack and really evil villains have no capacity for self reflection at all.

The truly monsterous villain never feels sadness and never feels regret on any level.


But, also keep in mind, no one knew Angela even existed when Xanatos and Demona were working together. Hell, Xanatos didn't know much about Demona's past either. She withheld a lot, and she lied about a lot.

"This is how I lived all these years, a spell stolen from the Grimorum Arcanorum. With it we can steal one minute of life from everyone who sees and hears the spell."

Yes, she's a big fat liar.

So, as far as we know, what did Xanatos know about Demona? That she was once Goliath's mate. That she was immortal. That she had a burning hatred for humanity. That she sought the complete eradication of human kind (and she made no effort to hide that). That she was a powerful sorceress. That she was using him. And that she could be useful to him in turn.

Still that's a bit different from the Red Skull, who's crime against humanity would be the kind of thing you could read about in a history book.

There would be no ambiguity here, the Red Skull is pure evil and everyone knows it, so if Xanatos decided to work with him, he would know exactly what type of person he is dealing with. Red Skull lies but never about his past, he never lies about that, he's proud of his past. Red Skull is not really a Nazi anymore, but that's due to arrogance, not any real moral qualms, he just thinks he is better then the Nazis and doesn't like serving a master at this point. Red Skull is no longer a Nazi and yet somehow he became more evil after that, now there is a feat.

I was just wondering whether Xanatos would work with someone he knows is pure evil. I guess I have answer.


There's what the audience knows, and what the characters know. Before "City of Stone," Demona may as well have been a Complete Monster.

Not quite, she was fairly unsympathetic till City of Stone, but be a Complete Monster you have to be really evil, you have to be detestable and horrific right off the bat, to point that the audience doesn't sympathize with said character at all. A story with a Complete Monster is one where you sympathize with the hero right off the bat, because you really don't want the villain to win.

Another Disney example would be Judge Frollo, who was an anti Villain in the book, but was turned into a Complete Monster into the Disney movie to make the conflict more black and white. Judge Frollo had no sympathetic qualities what so ever, everything about him was repulsive: he was hateful, genocidal, self righteous, lustful, dirty old man; there is nothing positive about him.

I don't think Demona was ever repulsively evil, like Frollo. Even before she became more sympathetic in city of Stone, she never reached that level of vileness.

[bklien]

I do think Red Skull is more morally offensive then Demona though, Demona at least regrets some her actions, it almost like she is trapped in cycle of hate and that is almost pitiable.

The Red Skull regrets nothing, he revels in his hatred and his sadistic desires go far beyond revenge, at least Demona has some basis for hating humans, the Red Skull hates people for no reason then his childhood sucked so he's going to take it out on anyone, even if they had nothing to do with crappy childhood. That's not revenge, that's far more twisted.

The Red Skull makes any version of Norman Osborn look like father of the year, at least Norman never tried to kill his child at birth, like the Skull did. even Demona loved her own daugther.

Gargoyles was interesting show in terms of villains, with most villains having some anti villain aspects to them, but I never seen Xanatos deal with a Complete Monster.

I think Xanatos could work with him and have a cool attitude about, but still be completely repulsed on the inside and goes out of his way to make sure he dies in a horrible manner in the end.

Anyway on another note, I bet Xanatos wouldn't like commies very much.
What about Jakal and Hayena? (sp?)

[The Overlord]

What about Jakal and Hayena? (sp?)

They were your average psychos for hire, I don't think Xanatos has a problem with psychos for hire.

[Hordesman]

They were your average psychos for hire, I don't think Xanatos has a problem with psychos for hire.

Well, he's got leverage over them. I think, between City of Stone and starting a family, he's more calculating about who he works with. I still think Xanatos thrives on challenges but I can't see him finding enough cost-benefit analysis in working with a Red Skull. Too fanatical, too unpredictable, and given that Xanatos has had PR issues in the wake of his imprisonment-- any connection to a Nazi war criminal is going to be far far far far far far far far far far far far worse. He'll take his chances with Deadpool and their dialogue will be something else.

[Kenny E. McCall]

How would David Xanatos and Fox feel about dealing with someone like Wilson Fisk (The Kingpin) and his family, especially his wife Vanessa and son Richard?

[GregX]

How would David Xanatos and Fox feel about dealing with someone like Wilson Fisk (The Kingpin) and his family, especially his wife Vanessa and son Richard?

He dealt with Demona, Fisk is small potatoes in comparison. If they both saw a means to profit, why not?