Character Design Changes From BTAS to TNBA [Archive]

Karkull

03-10-2002, 09:54 PM

Like most people, I was surprised when Bruce Timm made his design changes to the Batman cast when he began work on TNBA for the WB. Some were tiny changes, but others were more radical. However, I've noticed something: the ones that changed more radically were the ones that weren't originally designed by Timm.

For example: Batman, Catwoman, Commissioner Gordon, Mayor Hill, Harvey Bullock, Two-Face, and Harley Quinn were all designed by Bruce Timm and, aside from minor changes that signified age and simplification of the art style, they remained relatively unchanged (save for Catwoman, of course, but it looked more like the Catwoman design from the aborted spinoff show).

However, characters designed by others met with a more radical redesign. The Joker, Alfred, Robin, Killer Croc, and the Mad Hatter were designed by Kevin Nowlan. The Riddler and Mr. Freeze were designed by Mike Mignola. Poison Ivy was designed by Lynne Naylor. All of these characters experienced more radical changes, some to the point of not resembling their original counterparts.

I'm probably making too much of this, but it seems almost as if Bruce Timm was undoing what these other creators brought to BTAS. Am I crazy?

Naraht

03-10-2002, 09:56 PM

Not entirely...

I know Robin was aged down, mainly cause Fox wouldn't let them have a "kid" but WB would.

The Dark Knight

03-10-2002, 10:09 PM

Did Timm design the Scarecrow?

It sounds like you may be on to something. Sadly, basically all the redesigns were worse than the B: TAS versions, but that's just my opinion.

The Game

03-10-2002, 10:28 PM

It's entirley possible Timm was getting rid of the ones he didn't make. It's funny, 'cause I like alot of those other designs more than alot of Timm's. Too bad he changed the Joker... Sigh, to this day I hate that TNBA redesign.

-The Game

CadaverousEyes

03-11-2002, 01:09 AM

What he did to Riddler is unforgivable. Jealous, no doubt.
What about the Scarface and the Ventriloquist?

The Penguin

03-11-2002, 01:17 AM

The Penguin was great though. I'd like to give the person responsible for his redesign a big hug! :D :D :D

:o ...ok maybe just a "thank you."

Mattashell

03-11-2002, 01:20 AM

I agree, when B:TAS first aired I hated the design for Penguin, and he's the only change I felt to be an improvement.

TimTwoFace

03-11-2002, 10:55 AM

I've grown used to most of the new designs by now. The Scarecrow was the only one that, right off the bat, was an immediate improvement.

Clayface, the Penguin, Batman, Batgirl, all the GCPD, they all looked fine, too. Alfred, Catwoman and Poison Ivy took some getting used to, but now the mainstream comics have picked up her pale green skin, so it's all good.

The ones I didn't like were the Riddler, the Ventriloquist, Mr. Freeze, an d the Joker...ugh, at least they fixed the Joker up by the time ROTJ came around. That design is almost better than his original!

Didn't the WB streamline these designs just to save money on animation costs? I always thought that was the original reason for the big change - the almighty dollar.

-Tim

James Harvey

03-11-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
Didn't the WB streamline these designs just to save money on animation costs? I always thought that was the original reason for the big change - the almighty dollar.

-Tim
According to Timm it was so they could be animated better. Less lines means smoother animation. Overly detailed animations tends to animated difficult (like G.I. Joe for example) and Timm wanted to avoid this, so he streamled the characters. Here's a link to comparison shots of most of the characters (scroll down some):

<a href="http://www.toonzone.net/worldsfinest/batsupes/imagegallery.html">Image Gallery</a>

BatKid

03-11-2002, 12:16 PM

When I first saw TNBA, I was shocked by the design changes. It did seem weird that all the characters seemed to be more "simpler", but I got used to it after seeing a few episodes.

The new Joker design was the biggest change for me. I hated that design. The big, ruby lips were gone, his eyes looked more like a bug's eye than a human's, and the shape of his face was very weird to me. Thankfully for the ROTJ flashback scene, they fixed the design, and it's my favorite Joker design ever! :D

Although many changes were made to the characters in terms of design, I think I liked most of them. My reason is, because they stuck closely to the comic designs, and to me, the comic designs rule! :)

Zoddman

03-11-2002, 02:24 PM

TNBA redesign of Scarecrow was awesome. He finally actually looked like "Fear Incarnate". :cool:

jm5150bc

03-11-2002, 03:42 PM

I think some re-designs were good, others were not....

The Riddler- TERRIBLE. I can only hope it was because some WB Knucklehead mandated that he look more like Jim Carrey (still a bad idea, but it would make sense. That's what they did to the Penguin for B:TAS. I certainly hope that Timm didn't WANT him to look like that !!)

Joker only worked in "World's Finest" due to shading. "ROTJ" design is the absolute best.

Bane was much better in the re-design. Scarecrow was AWESOME, hated Catwoman, Ivy grew on me as time went on (pun wasn't intended, but in hindsight, I LIKE IT !).

I could go on and on really, but if I had to say it in a nutshell, the TNBA designs were much flatter looking on the screen than the B:TAS designs... especially Batman. That "fixed" shoulder highlight only looked good in a few episodes to me... mostly the "TMS"animated ones. When it was done right, it was great, but, more often that not it wasn't.

Heehaw

03-11-2002, 05:24 PM

The BTAS Penguin was due to Kenner/Hasbro wanting to cash in on the Batman Returns version of the character. He was supposed to look like he ended up looking in TNBA, but the tie-in to Devito was a marketing issue. The same thing is probably true for the blonde headed Selina Kyle and TNBA Riddler.

nerium_oleander

03-11-2002, 06:39 PM

I hadn't really looked at these beside each other until I started reading this thread, but wow, there's quite a bit more difference than what I recalled. I like the non-costumed lcharacter ook of the Latter series, squared and smaller mid-sections, and I'll echo that the one redesign I loathe was Joker's. On the otherhand I must have completely missed Scarecrow cause I don't recall seeing that and jeezusm that's one scary meatball! I totally dig him, because he certainly does look like fear incarnate. Penguin was also a vast improvement, I cannot stand the character from batman returns and want nothing around to remind me. Overall I think I like the simplistic, more angular style of the WB's series, because it looks cleaner, and sharper.

Since it seems I missed a few of the TNBA, (though unfortunately I did see the Farmer Brown ep) I was wondering if these are in rotation at CN or anywhere else so I can try and catch them?

-n

batwing53

03-11-2002, 06:49 PM

Batman, I didn't really like at first. When I first saw "Holiday Knights" I was like WTF when I saw Batman's new suit, and Robin being a midget and wearing red-and-black. I like the new Batmobile a lot better than the old one, I like the old Batboat better, I like the old Batwing better, I like the new Mr. Freeze, the Poison Ivy new suit I hated at first and have always hated, the Joker redesign I liked, and Scarecrow looked ill.

Brother Nature

03-12-2002, 02:14 AM

One of my main concerns over the new designs is that it *completely* loses track of continuity. By making the changes so vast & drastic, the new series might as well take place in a whole new & separate universe than what was established in the BTAS. You just can't simply *ignore* stuff totally like that! It definitely takes away all realism & believability away, in the sense that no one can have such major overhauls unless by some type of surrealistic magic. Did Bruce Timm really want to rub it in that this was only a cartoon & fiction, and that therefore such drastic changes in appearances are just a trivial matter since none of it is real anyway?

On one hand, I agree that it was a pretty cool & interesting new approach, and I understand most of the valid reasons behind it...but still...it strikes as me as trying to keep the cake & eat the cake - breaking established continuty in the process - and making it all too obvious & blatant that the series isn't "real", considering that continuity seems trivial.

TimTwoFace

03-12-2002, 02:18 AM

Part of the problem with the new designs, as many have already mentioned, were the animation companies that worked on those episodes. ALL of the TMS episodes were great, no matter what design was used (NEVER FEAR, GROWING PAINS, OVER THE EDGE, THE DEMON REBORN). Dong Yang is definately not as good a company - HOLIDAY KNIGHTS, SINS OF THE FATHER, and COLD COMFORT were awfully drawn. As more episodes were made, though, they looked better; heck, I think JUDGEMENT DAY even had a little bit of CGI in there somewhere.

Why TMS chose to work on ANIMANIACS instead of BTAS full time, I still have no idea.

-Tim

Zoddman

03-12-2002, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Brother Nature
One of my main concerns over the new designs is that it *completely* loses track of continuity. By making the changes so vast & drastic, the new series might as well take place in a whole new & separate universe than what was established in the BTAS. You just can't simply *ignore* stuff totally like that! It definitely takes away all realism & believability away, in the sense that no one can have such major overhauls unless by some type of surrealistic magic. Did Bruce Timm really want to rub it in that this was only a cartoon & fiction, and that therefore such drastic changes in appearances are just a trivial matter since none of it is real anyway?

On one hand, I agree that it was a pretty cool & interesting new approach, and I understand most of the valid reasons behind it...but still...it strikes as me as trying to keep the cake & eat the cake - breaking established continuty in the process - and making it all too obvious & blatant that the series isn't "real", considering that continuity seems trivial. One thing you have to keep in mind is that S:TAS was already airing on Kid's WB! when TNBA came along. Timm just wanted the designs to mesh with Supermna's new, sleeker look. Imagine what the Batman and Superman teamup episodes would have looked like if they had the old animated series look for Batman. It probably would've been really weird looking. It was a neccesity to sleek down the characters from Batman, so that Superman and Batman could be standing in a room together without the viewer thinking, "Batman looks really chunky and old compared to Supes."

James Harvey

03-12-2002, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
I think JUDGEMENT DAY even had a little bit of CGI in there somewhere.

Nope, there was absolutely no CGI animation in that episode - or any Batman episode. The sequence you're referring to (and I know the seauence because we discussed it before) is just animated good, very smoothly. The scene is near the end where Batman is being pulled up to the roof of and in the background you see the wall going down as he goes up, and it looks incredibly smoothe, which it is. No CG there.

OVER THE EDGE, on the otherhand was the first (and only) Batman episode to be colored by computer (like JUSTICE LEAGUE).

Heehaw

03-12-2002, 07:40 PM

Dong Yang is definately not as good a company - HOLIDAY KNIGHTS, SINS OF THE FATHER, and COLD COMFORT

Yeah, Sins is definitely drawn and animated poorly, though Cold Comfort is a little better. Have to disagree on Holiday Nights, though. For me, that is one of the best drawn and animated episodes in TNBA. It's a little silly, in places, but nice and clean and smooth.

As for Judgement Day, well, I don't like it very much. The animation is only average in that one. Nothing special with any of it, though an interesting twist on the Two Face character. Not sure if Dong Yang or Koko did that one, though both companies worked together on some TNBA shows.

The Mad Hatter

03-12-2002, 07:42 PM

I could be completely wrong, but I was under the impression that KOKO and Dong Yang were one and the same... or maybe I'm mis-remembering something.

TimTwoFace

03-12-2002, 07:43 PM

I just didn't like HOLIDAY KNIGHTS to begin with...even more annoying that poor animation in the earlier TNBA episodes was the poor sound quality - HOLIDAY KNIGHTS is the best example of this, though DOUBLE TALK and a couple others are rather poor, too. Sigh.

But at least they WERE new episodes, right? I don't see any other animated series' from WB running over 100 episodes - except Pokemon...grrrr...Pokemon...

-Tim

Terminatah

03-13-2002, 12:58 AM

I didn't like the dehumanizing effect the redesign had on the characters. Even Scarface looked more alive than his ventriloquist. Penguin might be the only one who became more human as a result of the overhaul. But other characters who used to be pretty realistic, such as Joker and Croc, became much less scary after their toony rebirth. I think it was possible to sleek down the series without having to make all the characters so exaggerated, but Timm & Co got stylistically carried away.

I don't think the new Riddler even got his own episode, did he? Who else was redesigned and put aside?

Oh, and on a side note, I notice Scarecrow was redesigned while still in BTAS, and then again in TNBA. Who designed these three incarnations?

-Terminatah

Zoddman

03-13-2002, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Terminatah
I don't think the new Riddler even got his own episode, did he? Who else was redesigned and put aside?

Oh, and on a side note, I notice Scarecrow was redesigned while still in BTAS, and then again in TNBA. Who designed these three incarnations?

-Terminatah Riddler and Mad Hatter were the only two that got shelved when TNBA aired. Which is a shame, because the redesign for Mad Hatter was much creepier and cooler than his old design.

Scarecrow was redesigned all three times by Bruce Timm. It was his constant tinkering to try to get Scarecrow to look scary without upsetting Fox Kids censors. when Kids WB came along, they let him cut loose ;) (But I think Mike Mignola did influence Timm a bit.)

TimTwoFace

03-13-2002, 01:56 AM

The Riddler never did get an episode to himself once the new designs were set, but the Mad Hatter did. Actually, he got a few episodes; he was in OVER THE EDGE and KNIGHT TIME, and then was the feature villain in ANIMAL ACT. I didn't mind his new design so much, but I liked the older one way more. (How did he shrink, anyway?)

-Tim

Mattashell

03-13-2002, 02:05 AM

There should be an episode where we learn that a large portion of Gotham's populace, including all of the women, was exposed to "big head" gas. In the climax of this episode Joker gets his lips ripped off.

MILatino

03-13-2002, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Terminatah
I didn't like the dehumanizing effect the redesign had on the characters. Even Scarface looked more alive than his ventriloquist. Penguin might be the only one who became more human as a result of the overhaul. But other characters who used to be pretty realistic, such as Joker and Croc, became much less scary after their toony rebirth. I think it was possible to sleek down the series without having to make all the characters so exaggerated, but Timm & Co got stylistically carried away.

Hear! Hear! I like that phrase "toony rebirth." That's exactly was it was.

Except for two people I thought the redesigns were awful. The two that improved were the Penguin and the Scarecrow. Imagine the Scarecrow drawn in the B:TNA design but with the realism of B:TAS... creepy! :eek:

The hardest hit, and hit badly, were Catwoman and Poison Ivy. They turned from very attractive, curvy women to practically sock puppets. The new Catwoman looked like the Cheshire Cat!

As for the uncostumed characters like the Comissioner, Alfred, and Bullock, their new Toony Rebirths looked haggard, old, and dehydrated. When I saw the Commish, my first thought was, "Man! He needs to retire! He looks exhausted!"

BTW, I checked out the before/after link showing the drawings for each show. The Robin photos and comparisons I read here about it are comparing apples to oranges. The two Robins shown in the photo are two people: one a college man (Grayson) and the second was a pre-teen (Drake). You really should look at Dick Grayson before and after, and Robin (before) and Nightwing (after).

With the redesign, Batman was truly transformed from an animated series into a cartoon.

Joe Wagner

03-13-2002, 08:57 AM

If I remember correctly didn't Kids WB! mandate that the show's characters had overhauls done to seperate the series from the one that had previously aired on Fox? I'm fairly certain they did because I remember an article saying that Kids WB! would earn far more money by making the characters radically different, creating more shelf toys and also making the show clearly set itself apart from B:TAS.

Also, I had never really noticed some of the changes as I have only seen a limited number of TNBA (I didn't have WB at the time) but what is up with the Killer Croc and Riddler redesigns - those are hideous! Croc had an awesome design before and so did the Riddler and even if they were mandated to change the designs they could have done a lot better than this mockery.

-Joe!

mgibson72

03-13-2002, 11:50 AM

I must be one of the only fans who loved the redesigns EXCEPT for the Penguin! In BTAS, the Penguin was threatening and a true villian. But when TNBA, he was reduced to a nightclub owner/informer. Maybe it's the reduction in stature I didn't like?

The Riddler was another change I didn't like but since that villian was basically shelved, I really didn't get a chance to see the redesign in action.

I was also a big fan of the more streamlined animation. Very quick movement. Loved those episodes.

Heehaw

03-13-2002, 04:32 PM

I could be completely wrong, but I was under the impression that KOKO and Dong Yang were one and the same... or maybe I'm mis-remembering something.

There's always the possibility, but I know that they are both listed in the credits of a number of TNBA shows. Koko, singly, is listed in JL, and Dong Yang is singly listed in the recent Static Shock show featuring Batman. There's also a noticeable quality difference between the two studio's work. DY has had a lot more experience from the BTAS days, so they tend to look better, though I think Koko's TNBA work is much stronger, overall, than their JL stuff.

As for the redesigns, overall, I think many of them more accurately reflect their comic book counterparts(at least the last time I checked which was a few years ago). Hatter, Croc, and Penguin, definetely.

As for the uncostumed characters like the Comissioner, Alfred, and Bullock, their new Toony Rebirths looked haggard, old, and dehydrated. When I saw the Commish, my first thought was, "Man! He needs to retire! He looks exhausted!"

That's probably supposed to be the point. TNBA is a few years after BTAS, so it would make sense for them to appear older. Police work, in the real world, is stressful, and stress takes it's toll on a person's complextion and mental health after a while.

With the redesign, Batman was truly transformed from an animated series into a cartoon.

Definitely agree there. Not just from a design POV, though, a substance one, as well. There were a few exceptional stories, though, and they can easily hold there own against the top episodes of BTAS.

was also a big fan of the more streamlined animation. Very quick movement. Loved those episodes.

Yeah, TNBA was faster, it seemed, but in the right hands BTAS was fast, too.

Ms. Kitty

03-13-2002, 04:58 PM

I just saw the differnt designs on Catwoman, and I noticed the second one where she's in black and with her eyes exposed still. Which episodes did they show this design? I like it. :)

Also I think Bruce Timm should of in first place kept selina's hair long and black and made her taller. All the women on TNBA were the same in height and shape! Oh well, we still have Justice League.... :D

Karkull

03-13-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by MILatino
With the redesign, Batman was truly transformed from an animated series into a cartoon.

That's pretty much how I feel about it too--both in design and in story content, :(.

This topic has sort of swerved from my original intention, but it's cool. As I've stated numerous times, I think that some of the designs worked, some didn't, and some might have worked better if the creative team tried to explain why they looked different. They could have gotten their "classic Penguin story" if they did an episode where he got the cosmetic surgery and became a legitimate businessman.

Everyone is throwing out different stuff about the different villain designs, so let's address some of them:

The Joker

I don't know why I'm the only one who really likes this design. Personally, it bothers me that the Joker is usually drawn as older--with a receeding hairline and the awful yellow teeth. I liked this younger looking Joker with a full head of hair and the bleached whites (they were yellow, but much paler than the BTAS version). He was also skinnier (the BTAS version was way too bulked up).

The absence of the red lips worked with the design--which was kept to only purple, green, black, and white. The black eyes were great--most of the BTAS Joker episodes could never draw the dark rings around his eyes right (they looked like a mask or made him look like a raccoon). In the Batman art book they even went out of their way to say that it made him look like a grinning skull.

Overall, he looked less like a human and more like a cross between Jim Carrey and a cartoon character--perfect for a guy who is basically a walking Looney Tune to begin with.

The Penguin

I didn't mind the BTAS version, but I liked the new one--it was fitting that the only Rogue not to be grossly exaggerated in the transition was the one that was already grotesque. I did want an explaination as to why he changed so profoundly, however.

Killer Croc

Same here. He changed too much to be believable--he was a different Croc.

The Riddler

Bruce Timm has publically stated that he doesn't like the Riddler, and it shows based on his redesign of Mignola's BTAS version. He doesn't look imposing anymore--he looks sickly and weak. Some people just shouldn't wear spandex.

Catwoman

I liked her redesign. MILatino didn't like that she looks like the Cheshire Cat, but that was the effect that Timm was going for! It was a vast improvement over the crummy gray outfit she originally sported. If only she still had the long blond hair...

Mad Hatter

Timm's original designs were more like the traditional Lewis Carrol version and he switched it back when they went to the WB. I think it was a mistake--I liked his original look better. He was really tall and looked very imposing. Once again the new design was really sickly.

Ed Liu

03-13-2002, 05:07 PM

Howdy all,

In the "Injustice Gang" promo for Justice League, I thought I saw the old-style Joker. Was that just for purposes of the promo, or are they going to animate him in the TNBA style? Like most, I much preferred the original.

Mike Mignola did Mr. Freeze for BTAS? Wow. I really dug his influence on Disney's Atlantis, but didn't know he was attached (however briefly) with BTAS.

Personally, I didn't think Poison Ivy was that bad (I liked the gloves past the elbow).

-- Ed/Ace

Nightflower

03-13-2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Purrgirl
I just saw the differnt designs on Catwoman, and I noticed the second one where she's in black and with her eyes exposed still. Which episodes did they show this design? I like it. :)

Also I think Bruce Timm should of in first place kept selina's hair long and black and made her taller. All the women on TNBA were the same in height and shape! Oh well, we still have Justice League.... :D

The second design was for a Catwoman spin-off series that was shelved. It's not in any of the episodes of BTAS or TNBA. I like that one best of all- it's sleeker than the gray outfit and it's not as inhuman as the Catwoman in TNBA.

Cyclops

03-13-2002, 05:53 PM

I liked the redisign of the Penguin and Batgirl, and the others were okay, except for Poision Ivy, Joker and The Riddler.

The Mad Hatter

03-13-2002, 08:02 PM

In the "Injustice Gang" promo for Justice League, I thought I saw the old-style Joker. Was that just for purposes of the promo, or are they going to animate him in the TNBA style?

Actually, it's the Return of the Joker flashback sequence Joker. The body is pretty much the TNBA style, though the head is mostly BTAS with less "raccoon effect" shadows on his eyes. It looks great!

Thanks for correcting me on the animation house thing.

And Timm has said that he did the re-designs of his own volition... Kid's WB was more than happy to run with the old ones, but Timm thought that he'd do something to make the new episodes different from the old ones, as well as try out new ideas. No network mandate whatsoever.

Heehaw

03-14-2002, 02:18 AM

worked better if the creative team tried to explain why they looked different.

One has to realize the characters within the two series' universes do not realize that their appearances have changed. Killer Croc, Joker, and Penguin don't look at themselves in the mirror and wonder what the heck happened. TNBA is a different show from BTAS, with a different focus and the changes were made to separate the two, visually and with story/art tone, though they both belong to the same continuity(although the writers may screw with it now and again).

The different designs for the various characters are not meant to suggest that they had some type of growth spurt and metamorphisized into some other shape. Batman looks at Croc from BTAS and Croc from TNBA as the same baddie, no matter his size, color, or voice.

Two different styles/shows but within the same continuity; thus no need to explain why everyone looks different. One is a dark, psychological, crime drama w/complex characters--the other a lighter, more popcorn action series w/some hints of the older show's dark side, though the characters, with some exceptions, are more shallow.

Karkull

03-14-2002, 10:48 AM

Naraht

03-14-2002, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Ace the Bathound
Howdy all,

In the "Injustice Gang" promo for Justice League, I thought I saw the old-style Joker. Was that just for purposes of the promo, or are they going to animate him in the TNBA style? Like most, I much preferred the original.
-- Ed/Ace

From what I've heard..and would assume...is that they're going to use the RotJ Joker design.

Before I get flamed to death, I said design. The way they drew him in RotJ...it's not neccesarily the same character who hurt poor Robin, and those of you BB haters can keep on hoping it was just your imagination comming to get you.

Toddman

03-14-2002, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Heehaw

One has to realize the characters within the two series' universes do not realize that their appearances have changed. Killer Croc, Joker, and Penguin don't look at themselves in the mirror and wonder what the heck happened. TNBA is a different show from BTAS, with a different focus and the changes were made to separate the two, visually and with story/art tone, though they both belong to the same continuity(although the writers may screw with it now and again).

The different designs for the various characters are not meant to suggest that they had some type of growth spurt and metamorphisized into some other shape. Batman looks at Croc from BTAS and Croc from TNBA as the same baddie, no matter his size, color, or voice.

Two different styles/shows but within the same continuity; thus no need to explain why everyone looks different. One is a dark, psychological, crime drama w/complex characters--the other a lighter, more popcorn action series w/some hints of the older show's dark side, though the characters, with some exceptions, are more shallow.

Very well said, Heehaw.

The changes from the Fox episodes to the WB episodes don't need an explanation. In my mind it is equal to Artist A from Action Comics drawing Superman very broad-shouldered w/a boyish face, but Artist B from Superman drawing him slighty leaner w/more rugged features. It doesn't mean that Superman is adding weight or rapidly aging from one story to the next, it's only artistic license.

I don't think it requires any more explanation (which means absolutely none) than a change in voice actors ("Why has Batgirl had three different voices, vocal-chord surgery?") or a change in real life actors ("Why is Harvey Dent suddenly a white guy? Did he become a big Micheal Jackson fan between "Batman" and "Batman Forever"?).

It's all subjective.

Also, the changes were definitely not an issue for KidsWB. Afterall, they always ran the original BTAS episodes along w/ the new stuff during "The New Batman-Superman Adventures."

By the way, I love the path blazed forth by the style of BTAS, but overall I like the TNBA style better. For me though, half of the enjoyment comes from the fact that it is an evolution of style. I don't think I would enjoy it as much if BTAS hadn't come first. But that is strictly one person's opinion.

Toddman