Superhero comics have gotten a little too dark and grim for me

[Shawn Hopkins]

I don't want to sound like an old fuddy duddy here, but there's probably no way to avoid it. I just can't read the majority of the Marvel and DC output nowadays without there being a high likelihood of getting grossed out or depressed. There's just too much constant death and destruction and degradation for it to be enjoyable for me.

And I don't think it's just my tastes that have changed. I've collected comics for more than 20 years now and have read thousands upon thousands of them, I have a whole room filled with them and have faithfully supported my paper habit. During that time there's been a fair share of bad things to happen like the rape and mutilation of Black Canary or Aquaman getting his hand gnawed off by fish, but even the laughable grim and gritty period of the 1990s wasn't as morbid and eager to crap on everything good and decent as things seem to be recently.

It's not that I can't handle dark stuff, I've got lots of it, tons of Vertigo and horror comics. I would bet that few other people on this board have a Boiled Angel collection (don't look that up, trust me on this one). I can appreciate dark. But when it's all there is and there's just no real break from it, it starts to get very oppressive and depressing. And relentless darkness simply fails to mesh with the inherent silliness of superheroes, as demonstrated brilliantly in Watchmen.

Things that have actually happened in Big Two comic books recently:

Sue Dibney, comic sidekick and wisecracking wife to a comedy detective character who gets his elastic powers from drinking soda pop, was revealed to have been raped by blundering third-rate villain Dr. Light.

The superheroes also mindwiped Dr. Light and lots of other superheroes. Batman didn't like this, so they mindwiped him, too.

A pregnant Sue Dibney was then killed by the ex-wife of a guy whose powers are to shrink really small. For no reason other than that this lady was crazy. She uses a magic shrinking belt to give Sue Dibney an anuerysm in her brain and then, for good measure, burns her corpse with a flamethrower she just happened to be packing.

Nightwing is raped.

Batman's longtime friend Leslie Thompkins intentionally lets injured teen heroine Spoiler die to teach Batman a lesson. Retconned away later.

Maxwell Lord, 80s con man manipulator who ran a comic version of the Justice League and reformed along the way turned out to have been evil all along, even when he was pretending to reform and even hiding it from us in his thought balloons. He shoots his friend, loveable, quirky everyman superhero Ted Kord, the Blue Beetle, in the head, blowing his brains out.

Wonder Woman breaks Maxwell Lord's neck on live TV.

Ice, another character from the lighthearted Justice League era, a shy, timid and good-natured character, is revived from death. That's nice since Ice did suffer the indignity of briefly becoming a 90s badgirl before she was allowed to die a heroic death. Except when she's brought back she has no skin for a while so she suffers horrible pain.

Batman's old sidekick comes Jason Todd comes back to life and starts killing people.

Marvin and Wendy are brutally and graphically mauled and partially eaten by Wonder Dog. Marvin is killed.

Sweet teen Mary Marvel becomes an evil dominatrix.

Silly superheroine Pantha, who had a cat shtick, and Baby, her charge who had a monstrous body but the mentality of a baby, are torn apart by an immature Superboy. Pantha is decapitated.

Funny animal characters The Zoo Crew are dragged through an awful grim and gritty reimagining and then horribly trapped in the bodies of regular animals on another DC Earth, unable to communicate and probably slowly going mad considering they are as sentient as you and I.

All the Marvel Universe superheroes go crazy and start fighting and killing each other. Black Goliath, funky 70s superhero and one of Marvel's first serious black characters, is murdered to up the body count. Speedball, a goofy Steve Ditko creation that bounces off things, straps himself into BDSM armor with knives in it that constantly cut him.

Captain America is killed and then brought back.

Wolverine starts a new X-Force dedicated to killing missions. Cyclops supports it. (It's actually a nice series but it's a turn for Cyclops that I don't like)

We find out Gwen Stacy slept with Norman Osborn because he was "sad but powerful" and had secret babies with him somehow.

Spider-Man makes a deal with the devil to save the life of his 80-year-old Aunt and get the writers out of having to deal with his marriage.

And probably more that I'm forgetting or blocking out. And now the dead are rising from the grave at DC and Norman Osborn is, all logic out the window, running the show at Marvel. Already dark comics have gotten even darker, too, just to compensate so they don't lose their edge on regular titles. The last Punisher issue I looked at was about a torture and snuff porn ring.

After every crossover they tell us that all this darkness was just paving the way for a more positive and balanced future for our heroes but it never takes, they just plunge headlong into the abyss once more. It's getting tiring and depressing to keep up with, when you can't find a recent trade to buy on the shelves that won't depress the hell out of you then there's a bit of a problem for me. I was going to buy a recent Dwayne McDuffie arc that recreated the Legion of Doom storyline from the Superfriends in Justice League. This looks like fun, I thought, but of course I looked closer and it had torture in it.

So I bought some Archie comics from 1980 instead. I've really been moving a lot more toward the Disney and Archie and indie stuff lately. I used to scoff at it when I was younger and more interested in "mature" things, but now I'm realizing that the stories are very well told and usually well drawn, and I expect it's pretty rare to see a rape or mutilation in a Betty and Veronica or Donald Duck story.

So, does anyone else feel that things have gone a little too far to be fun any more? Any rebuttals?

I know there are exceptions out there so you don't have to point that out, I'm so starved for non-depressing comics I might already be reading them. I'm loving Lockjaw and The Pet Avengers, for example, and if anyone else wants to list other examples feel free.

[Antiyonder]

I'm not assuming you guilty of this as some of the exceptions can be pretty obscure, but often the problem is that many fans sharing your sediments will often ignore the Super Hero titles that do offer fun and light heartedness in favor of sticking with the mainstream characters (Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers) or the mainstream version of the characters.

I think mainly some people keep purchasing in hopes of their favorite titles becoming fun again, but the only way to do that is by going to the obscure titles.

- Spider-Girl: Though the title has it's serious moments regardless the series, it does a good number of light hearted stories as well. Of course we will still get stories, but they will be in the Spider-Man anthology Web Of Spider-Man rather than being the center story.

- Blue Beetle: The recent series which was canceled was as Linkara described a fun series and devoid of many problems plauging the darker comics.


Now for the fun comics still available:

- Marvel Adventures: The stories are pretty much a modern day Silver Age comic, and prone to silliness (Kang controling the Earth by putting some chemicals in Potato Chips, and the Hulk getting angry because no one will let him eat his chips).

- Booster Gold: Much like Spider-Girl is a good blend of light heartedness and serious dark stories. One story might have an emotional moment (Booster Gold trying to prevent Barbera Gordon from getting shot and trying to save Ted Kord from his death) while others will have hilarious moments (Such a both versions of Booster Gold fighting each other as one is dressed as Killer Moth while the other is dressed like an Elvis reject).

While not containing the same goofiness, I'd recommend Justice Society of America which is fairly balanced.

- Love and Capes: A super hero/comedy/romance. Deals with Accountant "Mark Spencer" who has to balance his crimefighting career with his love life. His girlfriend of course is in on his double life, not to mention a healthy relationship between the two (No "will they/won't they" nonsense).

The page is down, but the publishing company put a legal scan of the first issue online, which I will send to you when it is available.

[Jin Kazama]

Sue Dibney, comic sidekick and wisecracking wife to a comedy detective character who gets his elastic powers from drinking soda pop, was revealed to have been raped by blundering third-rate villain Dr. Light.

The superheroes also mindwiped Dr. Light and lots of other superheroes. Batman didn't like this, so they mindwiped him, too.

A pregnant Sue Dibney was then killed by the ex-wife of a guy whose powers are to shrink really small. For no reason other than that this lady was crazy. She uses a magic shrinking belt to give Sue Dibney an anuerysm in her brain and then, for good measure, burns her corpse with a flamethrower she just happened to be packing.

Maxwell Lord, 80s con man manipulator who ran a comic version of the Justice League and reformed along the way turned out to have been evil all along, even when he was pretending to reform and even hiding it from us in his thought balloons. He shoots his friend, loveable, quirky everyman superhero Ted Kord, the Blue Beetle, in the head, blowing his brains out.

Wonder Woman breaks Maxwell Lord's neck on live TV.

Silly superheroine Pantha, who had a cat shtick, and Baby, her charge who had a monstrous body but the mentality of a baby, are torn apart by an immature Superboy. Pantha is decapitated.

All of these were done within about a year of each other, and all of them were addressed in "Infinite Crisis." The "Big Three" even realized this at the end, deciding to take a year off to re-think their methods.

The only part of this even addressed after "Infinite Crisis" was Dr. Light, and The Spectre made him pay for his sins in "Final Crisis: Revelations."

Sweet teen Mary Marvel becomes an evil dominatrix.

She actually rejected the evil side given to her by Darkseid and Black Adam, and returned to her normal self in the recent "Black Adam and Isis" JSA story.

I'm not trying to justify any of this, to be frank. My responses are showing that DC has made steps to rectify certain things (I'm ignoring the Wendy and Marvin thing because, well, if you look at the sales for Teen Titans, everyone is). In some instances, they have opened up new cans of worms (getting rid of Bruce Wayne), but nothing they've done is anywhere near the stuff they pulled during "Infinite Crisis." They've even gone above-all to try and restore that Silver Age vibe by doing things like bringing back Barry Allen, and Darkest Night really doesn't put off that "kill and maim everyone" vibe that most big summer events give out.

Marvel, I can't speak for. I just got back into the company with Secret Invasion, so if what they're doing is a travesty to everything Marvel, I wouldn't know it. The fact that they're avoiding a definitive big summer event makes me feel like they're actually listening to the fans that they want to cool it down a little.

As for "Fun Reads," though? I'll scream from the heavens that Tiny Titans is great. If you like the Marvel family, Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam! is great when it actually comes out. Even if you want mainstream, Booster Gold does the trick. And despite it being about a murderous mercenary, Deadpool is twelve and a half kinds of fun. New Avengers has some very fun moments with the Spider-Man/Wolverine/Luke Cage combo.

I guess my point is that, while it's not great, it's not as horrible as it seems when you just take bullet points.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I'm not assuming you guilty of this as some of the exceptions can be pretty obscure, but often the problem is that many fans sharing your sediments will often ignore the Super Hero titles that do offer fun and light heartedness in favor of sticking with the mainstream characters (Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers) or the mainstream version of the characters.

I think mainly some people keep purchasing in hopes of their favorite titles becoming fun again, but the only way to do that is by going to the obscure titles.

That's really not my problem. Like I said, the only thing I currently collect after being burned on the other stuff is Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers. I always preferred the obscure and D-List over the top tier superguys, Powerman and Iron Fist and Howard the Duck and Booster Gold, Guy Gardner and Blue Beetle are some of my favorite characters. My more offbeat tastes actually put me in a much worse position, because the wacky D-Listers are way more likely to get debased or used as cannon fodder for some event or other than the big guys.

This seems to be the thought process that goes into these decisions:

You like Blue Devil? We don't care, he can't support a book and he's got devil in his name so we're killing his best friend and turning him into a demon. You like the JLI? Too bad, DC hates it and it hates you for liking it, we're determined to destroy and dirty everything about that era. Black Goliath is cool? We put a hole through him because editorial wouldn't let us kill any bigger names in our alleged Civil War. Wasp? She's stupid and no one cares about her, we'll off her. Speedball is too silly, make him a criminal and then put him in a torture suit. We're raping Sue Dibney because she's obscure enough that we can get away with it but just well-known enough that we won't have to explain who she is, and we'll have her killed by another equally obscure supehero wife in a plot to get back together with her husband whom she divorced, because that's not misogynist, right? And some of it is just for kicks, who hasn't wanted to see Marvin and Wendy eaten by Wonder Dog or Pantha decapitated or slutty Mary Marvel?


All of these were done within about a year of each other, and all of them were addressed in "Infinite Crisis." The "Big Three" even realized this at the end, deciding to take a year off to re-think their methods.

The only part of this even addressed after "Infinite Crisis" was Dr. Light, and The Spectre made him pay for his sins in "Final Crisis: Revelations."



She actually rejected the evil side given to her by Darkseid and Black Adam, and returned to her normal self in the recent "Black Adam and Isis" JSA story.

I'm not trying to justify any of this, to be frank. My responses are showing that DC has made steps to rectify certain things (I'm ignoring the Wendy and Marvin thing because, well, if you look at the sales for Teen Titans, everyone is). In some instances, they have opened up new cans of worms (getting rid of Bruce Wayne), but nothing they've done is anywhere near the stuff they pulled during "Infinite Crisis." They've even gone above-all to try and restore that Silver Age vibe by doing things like bringing back Barry Allen, and Darkest Night really doesn't put off that "kill and maim everyone" vibe that most big summer events give out.

Marvel, I can't speak for. I just got back into the company with Secret Invasion, so if what they're doing is a travesty to everything Marvel, I wouldn't know it. The fact that they're avoiding a definitive big summer event makes me feel like they're actually listening to the fans that they want to cool it down a little.


I get that they usually undo the horrible things that they do, but they are constantly doing more to replace them so all it really does is make all the death and degradation even more meaningless. For whatever reason they like to keep their superhero universes in a constant state of mourning and despair, always reeling from this event or this death or that rape or those mutilations or cripplings. And they always say that after so and so event there will be a light at the end of the tunnel (even going as far as to claim that these dark eras are necessary to get to lighter eras) but if you've noticed it never happens, they continue to hold out hope but offer only morbidity. They're probably afraid that the current audience has gotten so used to this dark age that if they lightened up a bit things would no longer sell.

[TokyoGirl5]

I have to agree with Shawn, it's just my opinion, but Marvel and DC comics have gotten a little to dark for my tastes as well. Then again, my opinion probably doesn't mean much since I've only read a select few of them. :shrug:

[JeffBreakdown]

I don't want to sound like an old fuddy duddy here, but there's probably no way to avoid it. I just can't read the majority of the Marvel and DC output nowadays without there being a high likelihood of getting grossed out or depressed. There's just too much constant death and destruction and degradation for it to be enjoyable for me.

i take it you dont read the boys or anything by ennis or ellis

[MonkeyFunk]

Kind of makes you wonder about the people who write these things. Those must be some extremely jaded people.

[Tobias]

I think Marvel's gotten a bit lighter lately. I've started reading AMAZING SPIDER-MAN because it looks (for now) to be back to the fun series it should be. I think even the mainstream Punisher title (Not the MAX one) is even a lighter title that's not as over the top as the Max version.

DC on the other hand... I completely agree. What they did to all of those characters was uncalled for, especially in the Dibny's case.

They also seemed to maim and kill a LOT of Titans over a short period (Superboy, Impulse, Risk, Damage, Powerboy, the list goes on).

Impulse- I refuse to call him Kid Flash- seemed to really be at the center of DC's hatred, ever since the cancellation of Young Justice. They need to take him back to his original identity/costume.

[soundmonkey44]

I think marvel's darkness stems from its pseudo realism, I mean we have had a event wich nearly decimated the mutant population making them even more endangered then beofore, A civil war between hero's that resulted in caps death, A rampaging hulk that revealed how manipulative people like tony stark were, An Invasion by what were basically skrull Jihadists. and Now we have one of the most menatally unstable & Corrupt characers, Normen Osborn Running the show in the marvel U, while lots of the Hero's are fighting the good fight underground. Thats one reason I love marvel, Its still capes & cowls, but more realistic then DC for the most part.

As for DC I havn't read a real dc titile in years. (I mostly stick to Johhny DC stuff whenever i do have some extra comic/manga money lying around)
SO i can't really judge them, But I sort of like this trend of "Darkness" in modern comics, it keeps them interesting.:D:anime::p:evil:

[Brainatra]

>> Kind of makes you wonder about the people who write these things. Those must be some extremely jaded people.

*Indeed*... no wonder people stereotype comic fans as "30 year olds shut-ins living in their parents' basements with no social skills/etc..." given stuff like what they're writing (that wouldn't pass muster or would be rightfully criticized as misogynistic/inappropriate/etc. if it were in any other medium----TV, movies, etc.).

>>Funny animal characters The Zoo Crew are dragged through an awful grim and gritty reimagining and then horribly trapped in the bodies of regular animals on another DC Earth, unable to communicate and probably slowly going mad considering they are as sentient as you and I.
<<

To be fair, the Zoo Crew wound up on the mainstream DC Earth, where they've finally been restored to normal in "Final Crisis" (by one of those Monitor-guys). So I guess that much has been undone at least.

(I'll assume they returned to Earth-C to, if the Just'a Lotta Animals hadn't done already, overthrow Starro and save their Earth from being flooded... along with, before leaving New Earth finding and reverting to normal the non-superpowered Earth-C natives that they were originally trying to rescue that were also sent to "New Earth" with them and, uh, wound up somewhere...).

But yeah, still an awful ending to what was otherwise an OK miniseries (which I read was forced on the writers by DC's powers-that-be... which might explain its abrupt, depressing ending). Not that I'm thrilled with the earlier "Little Cheese is killed by an apparently-speciesist-Alley"/"Rodney Rabbit turned to alcoholism" Teen Titans mini-story (though the miniseries at least stated it was actually Alley's evil twin)...

Anyway, agree with you that DC (and Marvel)'s current mainstream comics pretty much bite... unless you like stories about rape/someone's head punched off into a bloody mist by an out-of-character alternate-Earth-Superboy/seeing the Joker apparently trying to one-up Idi Amin's death toll. But as noted above, there are less grim comics other than their mainstream-set material:

- DC's "Johnny DC" line features "Billy Batson and the Power of Shazam!", and the aforementioned (and funny) "Tiny Titans." Also Scooby Doo and Looney Tunes, if you wish...

- The aforementioned "Love and Capes" is also entertaining.

- Also the previously mentioned Archie and Disney Duck comics (though the latter's being revamped/switching companies again/etc. in the US).

- Another option are book compilations of various comic strips, such as "Get Fuzzy", "Edge City", etc.

- "Fun Home", a graphic novel written by the cartoonist of "Dykes to Watch Out For", about her childhood/youth and her emotionally-distant (and troubled) father.

-B.

[Shawn Hopkins]

i take it you dont read the boys or anything by ennis or ellis

No, I do. I stopped reading The Boys after it switched to a new company and I had a hard time finding it after the first issue for some reason, but I really liked the first arc. I have hundreds of Ennis comics, he's one of my favorites. I collected and read all of Preacher, some of his Hellblazer and collected and read his Punisher for years, from the start until just before the Barracuda arc when I could no longer easily access a comics shop. I even tracked down old stuff like True Faith. I like Ellis, too, although he can be a bit more uneven and some of his stuff is straight up pretentious twaddle or nihilism for nihilism's sake, but I've also been collecting him specifically for years and have hundreds of issues and trades of his work. One of my favorite comics is the fourth issue of Druid that he did, when he's apparently so pissed and petulant about Marvel's early cancellation of it that he kills off Druid and has Hellstrom call him a useless twit and burn his body in a trash can. And the Ennis stuff is lighthearted and fun, mostly, even the Ellis stuff (except for the awfully grim Ruins) isn't too dark compared to some of the other stuff in my collection.

Like I said, I don't mind when individual comics are dark. I think the problem, though, is that today's event and editorial driven storytelling force all comics in a line to comply with whatever the big, dark, threatening event of the week is, a constant ongoing war of horror especially at DC, which tends to make the whole line trend toward oppressively dark and tends to use up and dirty and darken and kill and maim characters for no good storytelling reason other than to make it clear to the reader that the latest "event" is serious because, hey, look at all the bad stuff that happened to the character we've chosen as the victim for the event.

If they would just drop the constant events or take a different approach to them or do -something- that would let their individual writers tell their individual stories like having the events but not having crossovers, there might be more variety. We'd also need writers who don't seem to have an irrational hatred of the fun and the silly, though, too. This is an older example, but I'd rather have them just leave Stanley and His Monster alone than do what Kevin Smith did to them in Green Arrow.

[King]

Quick question:
Can you stand manga or coming of age theme type of stories?

Because I got one you might like.

[Collie]

So, does anyone else feel that things have gone a little too far to be fun any more?

I couldn't agree more.

[soundmonkey44]

wow Brainatra, Dc's Current stories make Marvel's Dark Reign Sound like a Picnic on a sunny day. (Seriously Animals going mad, rape, joker being more homicidal then before....Thats some scary stuff)

But IMO Regualr marvel u is still pretty good, yeah theres lots of depressing stuff, but overall its pretty good & on the bright side there Finally Bringing the real captian america (Steve rogers) back. YAY!

& Deadpool is a lighthearted & extremly violent series. (I guess that makes it an oxymoron.)

As for Johhny DC I used to Read Teen Tiatans go! (Until my local book store stopped getting it for some reason) & Cartoon network Block party. BTW: Anybody know where I can find trade paparbacks/GNs/whatever of the Teen Titans go & Cartoon Network comics?


but Yea I would Deffianantly suggest any johhny dc title as well as Archie (ecspecially sonic) to anyone who finds marvel & DC to dark.:anime::evil:

[Antiyonder]

Kind of makes you wonder about the people who write these things. Those must be some extremely jaded people.

As much as the writers may contribute, overall the type of comics we get depend on which titles sell well. And as I said before many of the readers who clamour for light hearted Super Hero titles end up passing on the lighter titles, because:

A. They are unaware of the obscure, but more optimistic offerings and end up missing them.

B. Some readers out of pride will often stick with their favorite comic whether the appeal is there or not, because their pride dictates that they must buy all titles with their favorite characters.

In this case, the way to convince Marvel and DC to lighten up is to vote with our dollars on the titles that don't provoke the slitting of wrists.

[Shawn Hopkins]

As much as the writers may contribute, overall the type of comics we get depend on which titles sell well. And as I said before many of the readers who clamour for light hearted Super Hero titles end up passing on the lighter titles, because:

A. They are unaware of the obscure, but more optimistic offerings and end up missing them.

B. Some readers out of pride will often stick with their favorite comic whether the appeal is there or not, because their pride dictates that they must buy all titles with their favorite characters.

In this case, the way to convince Marvel and DC to lighten up is to vote with our dollars on the titles that don't provoke the slitting of wrists.

It's true. If you look at the CBR forums you'll find people who bought each and every one of the 52 issues of Countdown and complained about the misery it was bringing them each and every step of the way. At some point you just have to stop.

But it's not like it's all their fault and it's not done out of pride, I think, but out of affection for the characters, habit and optimism. DC and Marvel format these events and things where you kind of have to follow them to fully figure out what the hell is going on in their books. Why aren't there any more mutants? Should have read House of M. Why is Batman so pissed at the Justice League? Didn't you read Identity Crisis?

So a reader who still wants to read and keep up with the reasonably good comics featuring the big characters is put in a situation where he feels like he has to buy some crap along with the good stuff just to keep up with the fictional universe (James Robinson's One Year Later Superman story was excellent, for example, but you kind of need to have read Infinite Crisis for the backgroud). Instead of dropping what they love and reading along the obscure periphery that is so minor it remains untouched by overall editorial meddling like you suggest, I'm sure some readers would rather either stick with it hoping it improves or drop Marvel or DC altogether.

[soundmonkey44]

what you said is true, lots of us get hooked to these events & want to know everything that happens. I for one would love to cut down to just buying Deadpool, Runaways & the various avengers titles, but I wanna know everything that goes on in the marvel U so i find myself buying all the other various minis tie-ins one-shots, etc. just because I don't wanna miss anything improtant. (& doing so has kept me from having a regular video gam & DVD budget for years.)

Yes Sadly comics & manga are addictive, but hey its better then television. LULZ, I just hope once the economy picks up the marvel titles go down in price 3-5 dollars a comic is just to much of a strain. Of course I have conisered switching to trades whenever the "Iron Patriot act" Begins.

[Antiyonder]

Another factor I meant to list is the more insecure fans. Before they become labeled as a geek medium, comics were seen definitely as a kiddie medium.

So naturally some fans feel the need to demand darker and more sexual material to justify their interest in said kid medium.

[Lightning Tiger]

Another factor I meant to list is the more insecure fans. Before they become labeled as a geek medium, comics were seen definitely as a kiddie medium.

So naturally some fans feel the need to demand darker and more sexual material to justify their interest in said kid medium.
i thought kids just grew and starting demanding it?

Knightwing got raped???

[The Overlord]

i thought kids just grew and starting demanding it?

Knightwing got raped???

Yeah but that prevents new kids from reading this stuff.

I liked 52, but i wouldn't let a kid read that stuff, some those scenes were like R-rated.

Not mention there is stuff like Identity Crisis which comes off as crass and exploitative, I don't want rape in a JLA comic.

[Jin Kazama]

i thought kids just grew and starting demanding it?

Knightwing got raped???

Not in the conventional, Sue Dibney sense. I tire of people stating that, since it was a very deep, very emotional moment that came at the end of my personal favorite comic storyline ever (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=3262449&postcount=5).

Nightwing had just been put through hell and back. His entire life brought to shambles. His home destroyed, his past attacked literally, and being put to the test by every major Nightwing villain. He just watched Tarantula shoot and kill Blockbuster and did nothing because he didn't know if it was the right thing to do or not as Blockbuster orchestrated everything.

So while he's broken, beaten and emotionally devastated, Tarantula tries to console him (as she had a thing for him, and even dated him afterward) by sleeping with him, and Dick being the complete mess that he was clearly didn't want to but did nothing to stop it. It's a very emotional scene that shows how totally destroyed Dick had become. Yet people ignore that (and probably never even read the story to begin with) just to shout "OMG!! DC's Gone Terrible! Nightwing Got Raped!"

Sorry. That I get defensive of, because I love that story.

[soundmonkey44]

.....................................OK, Now Im really glad im a marvel fan, Sure People die (Or get eaten by Venom) but no ones been raped in the Marvel U during all these big events, unless u count Dark beast using a machine to weaken Xaviaers telepathy, but thats mental, not actual physical exploitation.

Honestly It sounds to me that DC is Trying to make there comic universe more gritty & Dark then the new batman movies.

....No thanks I'll take mentally unstable buisness men in goblin suits over what DC seems to be doing any day.


But I will sayJohhnyDC titles are Funner reads then Marvel adventures.:flapjack:

[Shawn Hopkins]

Not in the conventional, Sue Dibney sense. I tire of people stating that, since it was a very deep, very emotional moment that came at the end of my personal favorite comic storyline ever (http://forums.toonzone.net/showpost.php?p=3262449&postcount=5).

Nightwing had just been put through hell and back. His entire life brought to shambles. His home destroyed, his past attacked literally, and being put to the test by every major Nightwing villain. He just watched Tarantula shoot and kill Blockbuster and did nothing because he didn't know if it was the right thing to do or not as Blockbuster orchestrated everything.

So while he's broken, beaten and emotionally devastated, Tarantula tries to console him (as she had a thing for him, and even dated him afterward) by sleeping with him, and Dick being the complete mess that he was clearly didn't want to but did nothing to stop it. It's a very emotional scene that shows how totally destroyed Dick had become. Yet people ignore that (and probably never even read the story to begin with) just to shout "OMG!! DC's Gone Terrible! Nightwing Got Raped!"

Sorry. That I get defensive of, because I love that story.

Different strokes, I guess. I thought it was terrible and out of character for Dick to be so weak, Devin Grayson living up to all of the cliches about bad fanfic writers. Can we post from Daily Scans here? Because I found the sequence in question and can show it to everyone. She doesn't so much console him as grab the opportunity to screw him without his consent after he collapses bloody and battered on a roof. If, say, Deathstroke had did that to Batgirl, people would be freaking out about it a lot more.

Soundmonkey, this isn't a pissing contest between the two companies. Marvel characters have been raped. Ms. Marvel was raped by her own magic son and the Avengers let it happen.

http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/index.html

Oh, the Black Cat was raped, too, as revealed in Spiderman/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do.

[Jin Kazama]

Different strokes, I guess. I thought it was terrible and out of character for Dick to be so weak, Devin Grayson living up to all of the cliches about bad fanfic writers. Can we post from Daily Scans here? Because I found the sequence in question and can show it to everyone. She doesn't so much console him as grab the opportunity to screw him without his consent after he collapses bloody and battered on a roof. If, say, Deathstroke had did that to Batgirl, people would be freaking out about it a lot more.

Deathstroke hasn't had a thing for Batgirl since the character was first introduced. It was clearly stated from the get-go that Tarantula had a thing for Nightwing. Given her characterization up to that point, I felt it came across very in-character that doing that would be her way of consoling him, in her own warped little mind. Plus, the two did date afterwards up until One-Year-Later (which, if you want to talk about taking Dick out of character, you should easily point to that).

As for this story taking Dick out of character? It's a very long story. At least three or four years worth of plot, since Blockbuster was introduced. Plus, the story easily harkens back to two other stories: Batman's Knightfall (wave of villains wear hero down to nothing) and Daredevil's Born Again (crime lord finds out heroes identity, makes life living hell), both of which widely hailed as essential reading for both of those characters. Yet, in this instance, people apparently don't like it.

I personally felt it did a great deal to take Nightwing from "Batman Cast Member #143647" and carve his own niche again, which he became during those years of "Contagion" "No Mans Land" and others where he just became another cog in the Batman machine.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Deathstroke hasn't had a thing for Batgirl since the character was first introduced. It was clearly stated from the get-go that Tarantula had a thing for Nightwing. Given her characterization up to that point, I felt it came across very in-character that doing that would be her way of consoling him, in her own warped little mind. Plus, the two did date afterwards up until One-Year-Later (which, if you want to talk about taking Dick out of character, you should easily point to that).

As for this story taking Dick out of character? It's a very long story. At least three or four years worth of plot, since Blockbuster was introduced. Plus, the story easily harkens back to two other stories: Batman's Knightfall (wave of villains wear hero down to nothing) and Dardevil's Born Again (crime lord finds out heroes identity, makes life living hell), both of which widley hailed as essential reading for both of those characters. Yet, in this instance, people apparently don't like it.

I personally felt it did a great deal to take Nightwing from "Batman Cast Member #143647" and carve his own niche again, which he became during those years of "Contaigion" "No Mans Land" and others where he just became another cog in the Batman machine.

The same thing kind of does happen in Knightfall, and it's the worst part of an already overblown and sort of silly story. It's just so hard to swallow that Batman would be so wiped out that he would act so stupidly as to basically give up and let Bane break his back. Even Azrael, completely inexperienced and hamstrung by raging mental illness, was smart enough to figure out Bane's obvious glaring weak point. (Hint: He has two giant unprotected tubes on his back that feed him the drug that gives him his strength.)

As for Born Again, the way Daredevil reacts after Kingpin breaks down his life there is about as far from giving up in despair as you can get. He comes after him even harder, even better considering the freedom Kingpin has unwittingly given him. "And I have shown him ... That a man without hope is a man without fear."

It's not the old "I'll destroy your life ploy" that people have a problem with, it's how Nightwing eventually rolled over and let it beat him.

The point of my Batgirl/Deathstroke example has nothing to do with the relationships of the characters, who I picked pretty much at random. It was that there's a gender-specific double standard at work here. What if you did have a male character who had a "thing" for a female character since they were introduced and took the first chance he could find her weak enough to rape her? I don't think people would react well to a story like that.

Anyway, I get that it's your personal favorite story and I'm not criticizing that at all. To each his own. I'm just pointing out why I didn't like it and why I think it helps contribute to what I see as a trend of oppressive darkness in current comics.

[Wolf Boy2]

I've been retreating into older comics since I hate most of the current garbage. Here are my recomendations:

- The Spirit, by Will Eisner. His early work was iffy, but not too bad for a 20-year old kid in the early fourties. But after he came back from technical drafting for the Army in WWII, he was a true master of the comic-book art. All of his Spirit stories are self-contained and seven pages long, but packed with amazing composistion and profound concepts that were decades ahead of his time. Find any Spirit volume from 1946 to 1952 and you will be blown away.

- GI Joe: A Real American Hero, by Larry Hama. Yes, I realize that the 80s originals were a toy-selling gimick. BUT, they outclass any of the later GI Joe comics, including the current IDW garbage. If you like gore and death, then the current GI Joe comics are your ticket. But if you want fun storytelling, likable characters and a rich storyline merged with hints of military realism ... there is no substitute for the original. And the original has never looked better than in IDW's current re-print volumes. Vol. 1 is a slow start, but vol. 2 is outstanding (although there are 4 major deaths, just a warning, but nothing graphic) and vol. 3 tells the legendary origin of Snake Eyes, one of the greatest underrated heroes in comics. I haven't read vol. 4 yet, but I'm super-excited about the introduction of my favorite Joe, Lady Jaye. Ignore the contemporary Joe books, they really aren't worth the time or money. The art alone makes the 80s books superior.

- DC: The New Frontier, by Darwyn Cooke. This is so famous, I'm not even going to write a sales pitch. If you haven't read it .... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR!?!?!? Although this book shares common themes with Watchmen and other dark comics, it is different because it argues in favor of heroes and optimism (but without being cheesy or unrealistic). Plus, each major character gets an awesome character bit. I think Vol. 1 of New Frontier has gotten more re-reading than any other comic in my collection.

- Marvels, by Kurk Busiek and Alex Ross. Pretty much a summary of the Silver Age comics from the perspective of a normal guy. Not as good as DC: New Frontier, but the art is some of the best I've ever seen. My favorite chapters are 1 (for the WWII scenes) and 3 (for the brilliant rendering of the Galactus Saga).

- Doc Savage, by various authors. I KNOW THIS IS NOT A COMIC BOOK. But, the Doc Savage pulp magazines of the 1930s were very influencial on the superhero genre (like it's dark, gritty sister title, The Shadow). The hero is named Clark Savage Jr., he is known as the Man of Bronze and he has an arctic retreat called the Fortress of Solitude. Sound familiar? These pulps are being reprinted by Nostalgia Ventures with two novels in each book, plus original illustrations and special articles on the books and their legacy. The Shadow is a worthwhile read as well, but it's also much darker and more violent. However, violence in the 1930s was pretty tame, with gunfight deaths but no rape or torture. I would let a 10-year old read them, unlike most of the current Batman comics.

None of these titles are especially dark or gory, but they don't whitewash the subject matter either. Just fun, interesting reads.

Oh and some advice I learned reading Watchmen while sick with the flu ... DO NOT READ DARK AND GRITTY COMICS WHEN YOU HAVE A FEVER. It makes you hallucinate the craziest stuff. Watchmen gave me scary visions you wouldn't believe when I was sick. :sweat:

[Jin Kazama]

The same thing kind of does happen in Knightfall, and it's the worst part of an already overblown and sort of silly story. It's just so hard to swallow that Batman would be so wiped out that he would act so stupidly as to basically give up and let Bane break his back. Even Azrael, completely inexperienced and hamstrung by raging mental illness, was smart enough to figure out Bane's obvious glaring weak point. (Hint: He has two giant unprotected tubes on his back that feed him the drug that gives him his strength.)

As for Born Again, the way Daredevil reacts after Kingpin breaks down his life there is about as far from giving up in despair as you can get. He comes after him even harder, even better considering the freedom Kingpin has unwittingly given him. "And I have shown him ... That a man without hope is a man without fear."

It's not the old "I'll destroy your life ploy" that people have a problem with, it's how Nightwing eventually rolled over and let it beat him.

The point of my Batgirl/Deathstroke example has nothing to do with the relationships of the characters, who I picked pretty much at random. It was that there's a gender-specific double standard at work here. What if you did have a male character who had a "thing" for a female character since they were introduced and took the first chance he could find her weak enough to rape her? I don't think people would react well to a story like that.

Anyway, I get that it's your personal favorite story and I'm not criticizing that at all. To each his own. I'm just pointing out why I didn't like it and why I think it helps contribute to what I see as a trend of oppressive darkness in current comics.

I get that completely. I'm not trying to sway your opinion on the story. Like you said, different stroke for different folks. The point I was trying to get at (not that well, I guess), along with my previous post regarding Infinite Crisis, is that these things are single parts of overall stories, in most cases early moments that are built on.

That's kind of the whole point of comics, even more so in the current age of "write a story length enough to make a trade." If you just take those bullet points, then for an outsider it does look bad. But the point of those are to craft stories so that people read more than just grabbing issue #1 and give up on it. Repeat business. If you're just buying one or two issues a year, then, yeah, comics look brutal and horrible.

DC's done some really, really crappy stuff. I totally agree with that. The Sue Dibney thing was a bit too far. You want to kill her off, fine. But even if you wanted to tie it into the mind-wipe stuff, there's other ways to do that. But most of all of this has been dealt with and in some cases (Dr. Light, Mary Marvel) fixed or rectified. But just several issues down the line. Part of an overall storyline. It's dark and gritty at the beginning, working upward.

[Ed Liu]

But it's not like it's all their fault and it's not done out of pride, I think, but out of affection for the characters, habit and optimism. DC and Marvel format these events and things where you kind of have to follow them to fully figure out what the hell is going on in their books. Why aren't there any more mutants? Should have read House of M. Why is Batman so pissed at the Justice League? Didn't you read Identity Crisis?

I'm not positive that this is really a new occurrence. It's been happening ever since Marvel really took the idea of a shared New York City that had Spider-Man, the FF, the Avengers, Daredevil, and whoever else all at the same time. Back when I started reading comics in the 1980's, there were crossover events all the time and they didn't really have any less cohesion that the current ones do. During Walt Simonson's Thor run, they opened the Casket of Ancient Winters and triggered freaky weather that was commented on in a few different ongoing series at the time, along with a footnote to say, "Hey, go read Thor to find out what's going on!" For that matter, the Grant Morrison JLA run had stuff overlapped with ongoing events in the main books all the time, from Red/Blue Superman to Diana being replaced as Wonder Woman by Hippolyta and the loss of her royal status to some "new Flash" story that I still don't know all the details about. For the most part, the stories were good enough that you could bleep over the stuff you didn't know, since they gave enough context for you to figure it out.

If there is a difference, I think it's in the marketing for these titles that suggests that you NEED to get all this stuff to know what's going on. I don't think it will really affect a whole lot in his own title that Batman's ticked at the JLA because of Identity Crisis, or that you need to really understand much more than that.

Then again, my choice for all this crossover mania (and the re-grimming up of the respective universes) was to ignore it completely starting with Infinite Identity Crisis and Civil Disassembled War of M. If a title I was reading was participating, I was either going to power through it come what may or stop reading the title.

- GI Joe: A Real American Hero, by Larry Hama.
...vol. 3 tells the legendary origin of Snake Eyes, one of the greatest underrated heroes in comics.
Really? I love Snake Eyes as much as the next guy, but he's far from underrated. He was always one of the most popular Joes from the comic. For a stretch near the end of the Marvel run, they renamed the comic book G.I. Joe starring Snake Eyes (http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=95946&zoom=4), and there's a reason why there's about 18 billion Snake Eyes variant action figures sold by Hasbro even though there's only so many ways you can do a black bodysuit. He may not have the kind of popularity of Spider-Man or even Wolverine, which might be what you're referring to, but I think he's pretty well known among anybody who can finish the phrase "G.I. Joe: A Real..."

To toss another title into the mix that hasn't been recommended yet, go hit Atomic Robo. The creators' manifesto about things that they promise NOT to do (http://atomic-robo.livejournal.com/2008/02/10/) sounds a lot like a list of things that are annoying you about comics now. Two trades and a new ongoing series.

Also, WolfBoy2's list reminds me that the Darwyn Cooke issues of The Spirit were fun and enjoyable without getting too angsty or dark unnecessarily. Afterwards, the title got mostly taken over by Mark Evanier and Sergio Aragones and kept the same tone, but it wasn't the same somehow. It was always a really good comic, but the Evanier/Aragones issues just stayed at that level and I eventually cut it because I wanted more than just really good.

[GWOtaku]

I completely agree, this is the #1 factor that keeps me from getting truly interested in comics. We also can't forget the utter trainwreck that is Ultimates 3 & Ultimatum in Marvel's Ultimate universe.

It's ridiculous and overdone to the point that it's poisoning the majority of what's out there now. It doesn't seem to occur to DC or Marvel that not everyone wants to swallow an endless supply of that junk. It's annoying and lazy. A bunch of me-too bandwagon nonsense trying to chase the shadow of comics like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, which will always be infinitely superior to at least 90% of what Shawn talked about in his first post.

Thank goodness there are still some alternatives out there being offered by genuinely good writers. But I agree, the general direction is really screwed up.


- DC: The New Frontier, by Darwyn Cooke. This is so famous, I'm not even going to write a sales pitch. If you haven't read it .... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR!?!?!? Although this book shares common themes with Watchmen and other dark comics, it is different because it argues in favor of heroes and optimism (but without being cheesy or unrealistic). Plus, each major character gets an awesome character bit. I think Vol. 1 of New Frontier has gotten more re-reading than any other comic in my collection.


I 100% agree with this. I own this and absolutely love it.

[Jin Kazama]

I'm not positive that this is really a new occurrence. It's been happening ever since Marvel really took the idea of a shared New York City that had Spider-Man, the FF, the Avengers, Daredevil, and whoever else all at the same time. Back when I started reading comics in the 1980's, there were crossover events all the time and they didn't really have any less cohesion that the current ones do. During Walt Simonson's Thor run, they opened the Casket of Ancient Winters and triggered freaky weather that was commented on in a few different ongoing series at the time, along with a footnote to say, "Hey, go read Thor to find out what's going on!" For that matter, the Grant Morrison JLA run had stuff overlapped with ongoing events in the main books all the time, from Red/Blue Superman to Diana being replaced as Wonder Woman by Hippolyta and the loss of her royal status to some "new Flash" story that I still don't know all the details about. For the most part, the stories were good enough that you could bleep over the stuff you didn't know, since they gave enough context for you to figure it out.

See, that's the thing, and I agree with this. All of this stuff isn't new. Look at the early 90s. Superman was killed. Spider-Man was cloned and replaced. Batman was broken and replaced. Green Arrow was killed. Hal Jordan went evil and killed maimed many Green Lanterns. None of this is new stuff.

It may not be good. I mean, the comic industry did collapse a bit in the 90s. But none of this stuff is breaking new ground or anything.

[Ed Liu]

See, that's the thing, and I agree with this. All of this stuff isn't new. Look at the early 90s. Superman was killed. Spider-Man was cloned and replaced. Batman was broken and replaced. Green Arrow was killed. Hal Jordan went evil and killed maimed many Green Lanterns. None of this is new stuff.
Well, I think there might be a difference between then and now, but I wasn't talking about just the grim-n-gritty-fying of the superheroes (again). I'm just saying that the comics companies are going crossover-event happy again, and all of the events are being marketed as though YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT ALL to understand any of it.

I think the emphasis on that is relatively new. The best 80's example I can think of was Secret Wars, but that wasn't a true crossover until Secret Wars II, and I remember mostly blowing off all the Marvel titles I read that had SWII crossover bits. Back then, that was a viable reading strategy and I don't know how much of a boost Marvel would have gotten if, say, the Casket of Ancient Winters story really affected other titles rather than just forcing the creators to lose a panel as someone shivers in the snow and thinks, "Freaky weather!" in a thought balloon.

I think the DC and Marvel definitely want people to feel they can't afford to skip anything, but I can't say one way or another whether the stories really do need to be read together to make any sense. I hear alternating reports of, "This was a crossover issue but it didn't MEAN anything to the larger story!" and "This story made NO SENSE until I read that other comic!" about the recent crossovers. Mostly, the reports just make me think I'm better off not wasting the time or money, but they're no help at all in figuring out if the comics are really different :).

[soundmonkey44]

I agree, alot of series are really irrevlivent to the overall crossover, take dark reign for example, new series taking off in the dark reign era such as Agents of Atlas, Skrull Kill Krew, Black Panther & War machine, While all interesting titles, arn't really that imprortant. In fact most of the important DR titles are in the various Minis, one-shots, etc. As well as Ironman Secret Warriors,T-bolts, & the Various Avengers Titles, everthing else just seems like extra clutter, but I Don't mind some of it, considering I'd be buying some of the titles (Deadpool) Any way, & I have Dropped most of the irrelivant DR logod titles, in favor for more improtant stuff. Still the amount of comics is rediculious, I wish US companies would take the Manga route & just put there stories in magazines. Save me some money man.:mad:

Oh well.

[Shawn Hopkins]

See, that's the thing, and I agree with this. All of this stuff isn't new. Look at the early 90s. Superman was killed. Spider-Man was cloned and replaced. Batman was broken and replaced. Green Arrow was killed. Hal Jordan went evil and killed maimed many Green Lanterns. None of this is new stuff.

It may not be good. I mean, the comic industry did collapse a bit in the 90s. But none of this stuff is breaking new ground or anything.

DC and to a lesser extent Marvel have been making a sidebusiness of killing and maiming characters since Crisis on Infinite Earths and the death of the old Flash and Supergirl, at least, and they sure published a lot of horrible stories in the period where every hero had to have his/her Death of Superman moment to create a speculator-ready special issue.

But I think that stuff has lately been intensified by the neverending crossovers to the point where it's less laughable and more intolerable. Another thing that adds to it is their practice, especially since Identity Crisis, of "raising the stakes" and making the villains much more threatening to the heroes, willing to cross lines like rape and torture that they didn't always used to. Formerly complex characters like Deathstroke have slowly become more purely Snidely Whiplash evil and the heroes usually seem outgunned trying to stop the unlimited atrocities, like Kobra's babykilling or Joker's unbridled murder sprees, that they all now seem to be capable of.

This is from a mainstream DC comic called Kobra: Faces of Evil:

http://www.funnybookbabylon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/foekobra-015.jpg

Also, DC has always picked on the weak a bit since Crisis, killing off side and small characters to keep body counts up, but with the Sue Dibney and Marvin and Wendy and related things they've been attacking minor characters with an almost gleeful gusto that's frankly appalling. The attacks on the goofier elements of the Justice League are so vicious it almost seems as if someone high up in editorial has some personal animosity toward them.

Anyway, there's not much balance or optimism in this, even though they (DC) keep promising all the dark stuff will eventually lead to it. They try, there were a couple of lighter Superman and Batman stories that followed Infinite Crisis during One Year Later, but after they were finished they started gearing up for "the day evil won" again and started throwing more characters to the hounds. It's like they're addicted to the cycle and unable to get off, I'm sure there will be some more upbeat stories after Blackest Night settles down for a little while but then another crisis wills start anew and they'll kick it off by having Binky crucified on live TV or Sugar and Spike cannibalized or something.

I do agree with Ed that comics, at least since around the time of Secret Wars, have tried to foster the idea that you need to pick up as many crossovers and other titles as possible to get the full story of the shared universe. And sometimes, even in the past, it might even have been true. I know Inferno crossovers could have been hard to figure out without at least following all the X-books, and I have a very clever Millenium crossover that's basically one story told from different perspsectives in a number of books including Suicide Squad. But they still seem to be running the crossovers more constantly now, and they also seem to be spinning dozens of miniseries off of each of them that you need to read too to get the full story, which is definitely a newer development.

And sometimes spinoff minis don't even address the plot threads they raise within themselves, instead using them purely as setup or spinning them out into other books that are spinoffs ot the spinoffs. Just thinking about the stupidity of Battle for Bludhaven, one of the worst examples of this I've seen, makes me feel like quitting DC comics altogether. It really was just a classic bait and switch.

Old comics would also at least have captions, like in Ed's example, telling you what story to point to or even helpfully giving you background, newer comics avoid those and leave you to figure it out on your own.

[Antiyonder]

And sometimes spinoff minis don't even address the plot threads they raise within themselves, instead using them purely as setup or spinning them out into other books that are spinoffs ot the spinoffs. Just thinking about the stupidity of Battle for Bludhaven, one of the worst examples of this I've seen, makes me feel like quitting DC comics altogether. It really was just a classic bait and switch.

If you don't mind my opinion on the matter, the better solution would be to put your money behind the titles that they do have that would fit your needs. I mentioned Booster Gold already, but there is also Tiny Titans, The Magic of Shazam and Batman The Brave and The Bold (which has Silver Age tones, plus will feature appearances by characters that didn't make it to the show).

[Shawn Hopkins]

If you don't mind my opinion on the matter, the better solution would be to put your money behind the titles that they do have that would fit your needs. I mentioned Booster Gold already, but there is also Tiny Titans, The Magic of Shazam and Batman The Brave and The Bold (which has Silver Age tones, plus will feature appearances by characters that didn't make it to the show).

I technically should love Tiny Titans and I do love the art and humor in it, but at least from the first few issues some of the sketches kind of require knowledge of current and old Titans stories to fully get the jokes (like a story in issue two about how the kiddie Terra is "such a two-face"). They've created a wonderful kids humor book and still managed to saddle it with decades of continuity that no kid will possibly understand. I guess kids might get it on a surface level, but it seems like the real audience for this is old fanboys like me who will really get it and love it and it is therefore an awful example of how insular and inbred comics have become. It's the rare thing that both delights me and pisses me off.

[Wolf Boy2]

I love Snake Eyes as much as the next guy, but he's far from underrated. He was always one of the most popular Joes from the comic. For a stretch near the end of the Marvel run, they renamed the comic book G.I. Joe starring Snake Eyes (http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=95946&zoom=4), and there's a reason why there's about 18 billion Snake Eyes variant action figures sold by Hasbro even though there's only so many ways you can do a black bodysuit. He may not have the kind of popularity of Spider-Man or even Wolverine, which might be what you're referring to, but I think he's pretty well known among anybody who can finish the phrase "G.I. Joe: A Real..."
That's exactly what I was saying. He's popular among G.I. Joe fans, but outside of us, he's totally obscure. The cartoon hardly used him at all (save for his one spotlight moment in "The MASS Device") until Valor vs. Venom and Sigma Six. I'm hoping that Resolute and the live-action movie will give G.I. Joe a well-needed boost, but personally I hated Resolute and the movie doesn't look much more promising. I'm really tired of this once-great franchise limping along at the heels of Transformers (which I also like, but not as well).

I think I have issues with traditional superhero stories in general. All of my favorites are outside the "standard" superhero concepts, such as Fantastic Four, G.I. Joe, Transformers, The Spirit, Fullmetal Alchemist, Death Note, The Haunted Tank, Sgt. Rock, Blackhawk, ect. I really don't like secret identities, masks or any of that nonsense. I'm only into the outstanding superhero work like Lee/Ditko Spider-Man, 80s Frank Miller Batman and Daredevil, Sale/Loeb Batman, DC Animated comics, New Frontier, Kingdom Come and scant others.

I also read indie comics like Strangers in Paradise, Ariel Schrag, Fun Home, Love and Rockets, Blankets ect. Although I am getting sick of a lot of gay/bisexual themes; not that I'm against them, but it gets tiresome since I'm not gay and don't really relate to it.

[soundmonkey44]

I 100% agree with wolfboy on the "Themes" thing. I don't care who or what (Jimmy & bug girl..ew!) a hero is dating, i just wanna see em fighting. & even though alot of comics may be aimed at teens that some may consider nerdy, I am not deperate enough to want to see 2 ficitional women make out & Lord knows I don't wanna see the other. I mean the only comic I read that remotly deals with things like that is runaways, wich doesn't really bother me since Xavins a skrull so...yeah. But I still would like to know why the writers decided to make Karolina that way, besides a attempt to raise sales. but I think some comic company's have been doing this just to try to lure in manga fans, I'm sorry DC & marvel, but No matter what you guys do your not gonna get the crazy Yao fangirls or overly-excited Yuri fanboys to read your comicss, so please, just, just stop it, I mean whats wrong with normal couples, I mean am i weird for liking the Idea of Tony Stark & Mrs, Marvel being a couple over, say...Black widow & Spider-women ( neither of wich are a real couple Im just making an example here.)

but yea its just an unnessecary shamless ploy to try to boost sales & attract niche audiances...for the most part.

[Brainatra]

I'd think many comics these days with gay and lesbian characters aren't including them as a "theme" but as a realistic reflection of the world at large, which includes gays and lesbians---including those who're gay (like, well, me) who like comics (and might want to see characters like themselves in stories getting to both kick butt *and* have romances, just like Superman or Flash or Green Lantern...).

There's also various comics (like "Dykes to Watch Out For", "A Couple of Guys", "Kyle's Bed and Breakfast", "Fun Home", etc.) that're also actually written by gay or lesbian writers, and thus not just a "gimmick"...

If you want gays treated as a "gimmick", try the tone of the whole "Batwoman's a lesbian!!!" campaign DC had when they brought back/revamped Kathy Kane a few years ago, and seemed to mostly emphasize "look, she's hot *and* likes other hot chicks" in its P.R., versus, erm, anything else about her character/background/any relationships she might've had.

-B.

[Wolf Boy2]

I'd think many comics these days with gay and lesbian characters aren't including them as a "theme" but as a realistic reflection of the world at large, which includes gays and lesbians---including those who're gay (like, well, me) who like comics (and might want to see characters like themselves in stories getting to both kick butt *and* have romances, just like Superman or Flash or Green Lantern...).
Oh, well I wasn't talking about the butt-kicking comics anyway. "Strangers in Paradise" sorta tried to turn into that, which was a major strike against the series for me (I would've prefered quirky and perverted slice-of-life over wannabe noir).

There's also various comics (like "Dykes to Watch Out For", "A Couple of Guys", "Kyle's Bed and Breakfast", "Fun Home", etc.) that're also actually written by gay or lesbian writers, and thus not just a "gimmick"...
"Fun Home" was one of the books I was talking about. I'm not criticizing the gay indie comics as much as I am criticizing the straight comics (with the exception of "Blankets") for not matching them in terms of writing or artistic quality.

I was impressed with Ariel Schrag's depictions of lesbian love in "Definition" (book 3 of her high school memoirs) because it was so cartoony and exaggerated that it was not erotic at all. I could totally understand the emotional themes of the story because the author steered away from drawing porn. But straight guys (like the late Michael Turner) draw porn even when it isn't a sex scene.

I recall a DDP G.I. Joe cover from 2003 where Scarlett's rear end was the focal point of the image. Sure ... just really wants to make me buy it. And the sad part is, G.I. Joe used to be much more respectful to women than that.

In the cartoon series, Lady Jaye was depicted as a millitary professional. She wore baggy BDUs just like the men, combat boots with FLAT HEELS and her hair was short and messy. Nothing sex kitten about her. But her personality and playful banter with Flint made her the most memorable female Joe in the series.

Fast-foreward to the 2000s, where a bunch of horny hacks at DDP have unfortunetly gotten their hairy palms on her character. Her breasts become very large and she starts wearing her BDU blouse half-buttoned so the silicon puffies can be on display (appearantly she is also not wearing the tan shirt under the blouse required by regulations). Speaking of her BDUs, they're much tighter as well. Her hair also becomes much neater; appearantly she goes to the salon when not fighting Cobra?

The correct way to draw female heroes:

http://www.myuselessknowledge.com/joe/characters/lj.gif


How not to draw female heroes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Ladyjaye-dd.jpg


Just embarassing:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/89698-131632-lady-jaye_large.jpg


Her character also suffered, losing her former charm and becomming a PMS queen. But to top it all off, as if turning her into a parody of a USO performer wasn't bad enough, they kill her off. But she didn't even get a heroic death ... just stabbed in the gut like a rookie. Why was she killed? To torture Flint. Oh, my God. The "Women in Refridgerators" cliche again. And Flint didn't even avenge her .... he fell victim to the "hero decides he isn't a murderer" cliche. I want my money back.

But this isn't really new. I remember a Spirit story from 1940 where the Black Queen (a crooked woman lawyer) started swinging aroung the city in a cape and bare-midriff costume with high heels and exposed legs. But thankfully, Eisner later outgrew such nonsense. I just try erase that story from my mind.

I've even censored myself. I was writing a comic book story, where a female bar owner was drawn in an off-the-shoulder dress with cleavage. I realized that this was very unprofessional, and redrew her in a suit and open colar. Sure, I like drawing hot girls. What dude doesn't? But character, realism and dignity come before cheescake. Or at least the ought to.

IT IS TIME TO STOP DRESSING FEMALE CHARACTERS LIKE STREETWALKERS.

If I want to see that sort of material, I will Google it for free. I don't buy comics for their ass shots. Bare legs and pantyhose must be banned from Superhero costumes. As must high heels. Seriously, why do people keep putting them on superheroes? It's nonsense. The only reason superheroines wear heels is because male readers think they're sexy. But if she is supposed to be a serious combatant, she should wear serious combatant shoes (like the aforementioned 80s Lady Jaye). I cannot express this pet peeve of mine enough. SUPERHEROINES SHOULD NOT WEAR HIGH HEELS. There is no way Catwoman could match Batman's athletic ability in some of the rediculous stilettlos I've seen her in. And even if she did, she would have all sorts of foot pain and authritis when she got older.

Did I have a thesis here? Or am I just rambling? Whatever. It's late. :sweat:

[silvanoir]

*applauds wolfboy*

seriously, give the women fighting outfits! some of the superhero "costumes" out there these days are really just lingerie in disguise. They can be sexy on their own time on dates, against villains they should be more appropriately dressed... fighting against an army in a teeny-weeny bikini doesn't sound like a good idea.

back on topic... yeah, mainstream comics are a bit too dark too often. I don't mind when picking up a horror manga or something with warnings on back so I know what I'm getting into... but I wish American comics had some wanrings for graphic violence. I'm not always in the mood to see a DC sidekick get their head punched through.

[Rick Jones]

I got back into comics during Civil War but I had an event burnout last year ( Secret Invasion, Final Crisis, Batman RIP, Any X-Men crossover, Spidey 3 times a month, Teen Titans death toll, etc) and I just gave up. I'm constantly thinking about picking some up again but I'm a little gun shy now.

[Jin Kazama]

Well, in regards to big, multi-title crossover events, looks like Marvel may be getting the hint a little. While they have "Dark Reign" right now, it's not a traditional 8-issue-mini kind of event, but more an overall theme.

Then, in this week's Cup O' Joe on CBR (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22007), Quesada is asked about J. Michael Straczynski decision to leave Thor instead of bringing it into the not-yet-announced Thor megaevent. In the response, he stated this:

Ironically enough, this particular storyline is the final large, line-wide-style crossover for at least the next year or so as we’re going back to smaller inter-family style stories that will allow our creators the luxury to tell more self-contained stories or stories with at least fewer moving parts. As I've mentioned right here on CBR in previous columns, for the next year we're going to be doing less of these line-wide crossovers in favor of "in-family" events within books. So it was just going to be this one last bang for a bit, but ultimately JMS didn't want to be involved and that's perfectly cool.

I'm guessing that big crossover (not really sounding Thor-specific, so this may be something else) Thor needed to be a part of will be the Iron Patriot Acts, and then a cool-off again. Kind of like now, where instead of a big summer event, we have small, contained ones like "Utopia" and "Reborn."

Given that it's blatantly obvious big events aren't going away any time soon, I can get on the bandwagon of doing it every two years or so instead of yearly.

[Antiyonder]

Given that it's blatantly obvious big events aren't going away any time soon, I can get on the bandwagon of doing it every two years or so instead of yearly.


I don't really think people are against big events altogether anyway, just the reliance on them. After all, Secret Wars and Crisis On Infinite Earths success is partially because such crossovers weren't frequent.

[Wolf Boy2]

I just wonder if the genre can be saved at this point. The hardcore fans that DC and Marvel cater to seem to really like this stuff.

I was talking to a DC fan recentely, and I commented that I prefer the animated DCAU over the mainstream DCU; for me, the DCAU is the "real" DC and the comics are an Elseworlds. He responded that he has tried to watch the cartoons, but that they "mess up everything [he] like[s] about the characters." He cited Hal Jordan as an example, and cited Hal's killing rampage as the best Hal Jordan story ever. When I said I only liked Hal in the Silver Age (and New Frontier) he laughed and told me how those versions and wimpy and that Hal became the greatest GL villain ever. He described the violence in giddy detail, telling me about Hal killing almost every GL, melting bodies and even killing children. Not very pleasant. :sad:

Now I've never read this arc, but I'm quite fond of old skool Hal and I don't want to see him become evil. I'm not too keen on him becomming the Spectre or any other such nonsense. IMO, Timm had the right idea using John in JL and giving Hal two DTVs of his own. I don't really think Hal would've fit in the 2001 JL ... I really associate him with the 60s.

But this fan (and others like him) seem to think less about character and instead praise the violent and sensational sales stunt stories .... like the aforementioned Hal Jordan rampage.

If DC/Marvel toned down their superhero stories, it would alienate the violent male audience and probably still not attract new audiences. The medium is just dead without children/young teens buying them at the grocery store. I think this is why the "grim and gritty" comics persist. It's what the only reliable audience wants.

Am I wrong here? Can the superhero genre be saved?

[Dr. Faust]

Nightwing is raped.That is awfully horrible
When? By who

At least Spider-Man now is not dark, it is plenty of fun I find it hated way too much

Deadpool is not dark too, it is always handy to have a laughter comic

To know that "Scott Summers" allows killing is too dark

[soundmonkey44]

well I'll agree with you wolfie that there is too much violence, but really superhero comics have alaways had it, sure in the old days it was drown out with witty banter & weird sci-fi elemnts but its still there, & in marvel's case I think there just trying to make there comics alagorical to are world, wich althoug nice is also plauged with corruption & Violence. But on the bright side there bringing cap back & they say that Dark reign will be the last big marvel avent for at least a year or 2. wich makes me glad to hear, Hopefully this means Iron patriot act & the upcoming thor event will be small & not a strain on my wallet. LULZ. But really I think this is a phase just like every thing else in comics, im sure we will see some morelightharted fare at marvel soon enough.

As for DC I have no bloody Idea what there thinking, but I have a feeling that DanDidio guy might be partly responsible for there, well not so good stories or sales.

but yea, all things come & pass in time im sure we will see a balance, & hopefully a good titans comic from DC soon, i mean seriously one of the only DC teams i like enought to buy there book, but im sorry the new books just Arnt my cup of tea. (Oh well i can still enjoy hunting down the Teen titans go digests, and hopefully pick up Tiny titans once Dark reigns died down & can afford a new title.:sweat:)

[Brainatra]

I just wonder if the genre can be saved at this point. The hardcore fans that DC and Marvel cater to seem to really like this stuff.

I was talking to a DC fan recentely, and I commented that I prefer the animated DCAU over the mainstream DCU; for me, the DCAU is the "real" DC and the comics are an Elseworlds. He responded that he has tried to watch the cartoons, but that they "mess up everything [he] like[s] about the characters." He cited Hal Jordan as an example, and cited Hal's killing rampage as the best Hal Jordan story ever. When I said I only liked Hal in the Silver Age (and New Frontier) he laughed and told me how those versions and wimpy and that Hal became the greatest GL villain ever. He described the violence in giddy detail, telling me about Hal killing almost every GL, melting bodies and even killing children. Not very pleasant. :sad:

Now I've never read this arc, but I'm quite fond of old skool Hal and I don't want to see him become evil. I'm not too keen on him becomming the Spectre or any other such nonsense. IMO, Timm had the right idea using John in JL and giving Hal two DTVs of his own. I don't really think Hal would've fit in the 2001 JL ... I really associate him with the 60s.

But this fan (and others like him) seem to think less about character and instead praise the violent and sensational sales stunt stories .... like the aforementioned Hal Jordan rampage.

If DC/Marvel toned down their superhero stories, it would alienate the violent male audience and probably still not attract new audiences. The medium is just dead without children/young teens buying them at the grocery store. I think this is why the "grim and gritty" comics persist. It's what the only reliable audience wants.

Am I wrong here? Can the superhero genre be saved?

Well, people still like superheroes (judging from how well they do at the box office at the movies), just not buying superhero *comics* (even if they could find them). Sure we'll be seeing Supes, Bats, and Spidey in cartoons for years to come...

As for whether mainstream DC or Marvel comics (the purveyors of the above-mentioned over-the-top grim-and-gritty crudfests) can be saved, good question...

Re: Hal: A few years ago they had some story that retconned Hal-gone-bad as being under the influence of some sort of entity within his power ring IIRC (a yellow-based entity or somesuch) to explain away his actions, with Hal now being (last I checked) back in action as normal. Yeah, still doesn't make the Hal-gone-bad story any better...

[D.Shaffer]

I havent heard it recommended yet, so I'm gonna recommend the Incredible Herc comic by Marvel. It's had a few serious moments, but overall it's mostly been a fun romp.

Check out anything involving Squirrel Girl. Lately, she's been Marvel's bastion of light heartedness in comics. If you can get a copy of it, check out the wonderful skewering of Penance from the Summer Spectacular.

There's also the Marvel Adventures line. Nothing to overly serious and lots of good fun.

[Beat]

I can't help but laugh at a medium that in its desperation to prove its maturity, proves itself to be so utterly immature. This is the end result, a decidedly insular market more concerned with keeping current readers than bringing in new ones. The concepts behind these heroes will endure, but their endless stories and mediums will have to turn a corner or risk descending into complete irrelevance. At the end of the day, it's the fault of those insulated in this bubble of readership and production. Relevance is not at fault, manga is not at fault, nor are the various adaptations. It's on the people writing this stuff. Good writing does not go out of style.

[The Overlord]

I can't help but laugh at a medium that in its desperation to prove its maturity, proves itself to be so utterly immature. This is the end result, a decidedly insular market more concerned with keeping current readers than bringing in new ones. The concepts behind these heroes will endure, but their endless stories and mediums will have to turn a corner or risk descending into complete irrelevance. At the end of the day, it's the fault of those insulated in this bubble of readership and production. Relevance is not at fault, manga is not at fault, nor are the various adaptations. It's on the people writing this stuff. Good writing does not go out of style.

Meh I think of this ultimately irrelevant, the comic book format itself is somehwat dated and really the character concepts are what are really profitable, not the format itself. The format may die, but the character cocnepts will live on else where.

[Hollaman]

I can only speak for DC which is that only company that I read sporadically. I agree with the OP that superhero comic books have gotten too dark. It’s starting to get ridiculous, but hey it all started when the industry started to shun children because the they and the older fanboys were embarrassed of their medium being label as a child medium by the general public. Now it known as a medium for 40 year olds who live in their mother’s basements and books sell around 50,000 or so issues. When it was a “kid’s” medium it wasn’t uncommon for book to sell around a million issues, so which would you rather be?

Anyways since superhero comics wanted to dropped the “kid’s” medium label kids, along with the general public, ignore the medium and rightfully so. Hardcore comic book fanboys are the only reliable buyers of the comic so the industry caters to them. That’s why we have dark stories, gore and super heroines that look like hookers.

That’s not my only beef with superhero comics, it’s the pacing six part story lines where in individual issues little happens and the melodrama. I regrettably picked up Cry for Justice #1 because everyone said it was so good. It was just Hal Jordon complaining, people dying, and superheroes saying “I want Justice”. Nothing barely happened? That issue epitomizes everything I hate about DC superhero comics right now. I tried to follow Teen Titans because Static was on the team (they’re not even writing him correctly). That was a mistake. I tried to follow Justice League, all they did was piss about semantics, especially Black Canary. All that time they spent complaining they could’ve save somebody!

Then I picked up Super friends, y’know the comic for little children and that I suppose to be embarrassed about reading. The superheroes don’t constantly complain and argue, they actually get along and are cheerful. Even Batman isn’t his god damned miserable self and he isn’t forcing children to eat rats! It told a complete story in one issue when the so called superheroes are actually saving people. Gaspe!

I also read an old issue of “Rima the Jungle Girl” if anyone is familiar with it, and I’m just remember how much they did in terms or setting up the story, story pacing, and development in 17 pages. Nowadays it just seems that they spend entire issues going nowhere.

I’m not saying that superhero comic should go back to the extreme cheesing 40s and 50s, you can have intelligent writing but keep children in mind when your writing the stories. You can write stories that can appeal and be accessible to all age groups. And I also think that they should should try to have one or two issues stories and use the whole five-six part storylines way more sporadically. Most importantly let superheros do what they do best, saving people and providing optimism that is needed for a better future.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I can't help but laugh at a medium that in its desperation to prove its maturity, proves itself to be so utterly immature. This is the end result, a decidedly insular market more concerned with keeping current readers than bringing in new ones. The concepts behind these heroes will endure, but their endless stories and mediums will have to turn a corner or risk descending into complete irrelevance. At the end of the day, it's the fault of those insulated in this bubble of readership and production. Relevance is not at fault, manga is not at fault, nor are the various adaptations. It's on the people writing this stuff. Good writing does not go out of style.

Actually, the writing as a whole is better and much more sophisticated than ever. As much as I love some of the older writers and as much as there are brilliant exceptions like Gerber and Moore, the bulk of the writing in older superhero comics really can't hold a candle to the writing in some of the newer ones like Vaughn on Runaways and Y or Morrison on some of the Seven Soldiers books or Whedon on Astonishing X-Men or Bendis on Ultimate Spiderman and Alias or most of Dan Slott's projects. A few bad editorial decisions aside, the comic book market shrank as the product got better and better. When a random fill-in issue of Power Man and Iron Fist from the early 80's disappointing, marginal sales numbers are an order of magnitude better than the best written books on the market today, blaming it on the writing alone just doesn't hold up.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I moved my post from the Linkara thread because I didn't want to send it off topic:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Antiyonder http://forums.toonzone.net/images/buttons/buttons_TZ6/viewpost.gif (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?p=3315892#post3315892)
We don't, but DC needs him to depict the fans who want the DC Universe to lighten up.

I'm not making a jab of the fans of course, but as I understand, Sb Prime is suppose to be a jab at fans who've grown weary of the darker and high adult tones of Super Hero comics.

You know, if that's true (and it sounds completely plausible) I'd really have no motivation to read DC superhero comics anymore. I mean, this is proof that they don't even want me to. It's their right, I guess, but it seems kind of fiscally silly to close the clubhouse to only people who gladly and unquestioningly wallow in stuff like Countdown. There can't be too many people that disturbed.

Edit: Yeah, I looked around and you're right. Okay, 'eff em. I quit. Even Booster Gold.

[Marinite]

I'll agree with a lot of the stuff said. Along with other reasons, it's why I don't read Marvel/DC comics. I don't have a problem with 'mature content' so much as I have a problem with the writers sticking in some random murder/rape scene and then sitting back in their chair and go 'Man, our series is so deep and mature'.

I never read too many DC comics, but I definitely know the violence/sex killed what little interest I had in some Marvel titles; namely Runaways and New X-Men: Academy X.