Do animals possess sentient intelligence?

[Calhoun07]

Do animals possess sentient intelligence, or do they respond to things just because they are trained? I work with a guy who lives on a farm and talks about having to shoot stray cats and dogs and somehow our conversation turned to the intelligence of animals.

My position is that animals and pets ARE intelligent and can comprehend things, even if it's at a more limited level than humans generally can. Of course, I grew up around cats and dogs, so I've seen first hand instances where our pets were very smart. The guy I worked with blew it off and said animals are only trained.

I look at all the things we do thru out our days, from the most simplistic of tasks to even more complex things, and I thought, "Well, so are we. We are trained in all the things we do, even if it's from wiping our nose to working complex machinery or what have you."

I believe that we can take the things we are trained on and comprehend them and build on them and figure out things with our own intelligence, and I believe animals can as well. Dogs, for example, are said to have the average intelligence of a 5 year old. Well, there are quite a few 5 years olds out there smart as a whip, and I've seen our dogs do things that displayed intelligence above and beyond their training.

I know there are other pet lovers out here, so I am interested in hearing you sound off on your opinions on this. Are animals intelligent and can they comprehend things beyond their training?

[Psycho Fox]

Yes they do just take a look at wild animals that have had very little to no contact with humans. When they do come in to contact with a human they react differntly like they each have their own personality which they do which would mean they have intelligence.

[Borg4of3]

I'm no animal expert, but this topic seems pretty cool, so I'm gonna ramble my thoughts out.

I agree that animals have some form of coherent thought but many don't have the capacity to either act on it, build upon it, or even remember it (Like goldfish who have a memory span of 5 seconds or something). The problem here is that we don't have a real definition for 'thought'. Much of what animals, and humans, do can be attributed to Reason, Training, Habit, and Instinct. Instinct are those things that everyone of one species does, no matter what, like built in instructions. Training is learned, of course; Habit is reinforced; which leaves Reason. The only example I can come up with is similar to Psycho Fox's. Squirrel's at a military base have 'learned' that humans won't attack them, and go about their business without worry. Squirrel's at my dorm have 'learned' that humans try to poison them, trap them in mousetraps, and scare them away, so they run to high heaven whenever humans come by. This could be attributed to a form of indirect training, which is really what reasoning is from their pov....

Thus, what I've concluded from that bag of random 'reasoning' is that anything that is trained has already proven that it learns from experience and thus, has intelligence.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Borg4of3
I agree that animals have some form of coherent thought but many don't have the capacity to either act on it, build upon it, or even remember it (Like goldfish who have a memory span of 5 seconds or something). The problem here is that we don't have a real definition for 'thought'. Much of what animals, and humans, do can be attributed to Reason, Training, Habit, and Instinct. Instinct are those things that everyone of one species does, no matter what, like built in instructions. Training is learned, of course; Habit is reinforced; which leaves Reason. The only example I can come up with is similar to Psycho Fox's. Squirrel's at a military base have 'learned' that humans won't attack them, and go about their business without worry. Squirrel's at my dorm have 'learned' that humans try to poison them, trap them in mousetraps, and scare them away, so they run to high heaven whenever humans come by. This could be attributed to a form of indirect training, which is really what reasoning is from their pov....

Thus, what I've concluded from that bag of random 'reasoning' is that anything that is trained has already proven that it learns from experience and thus, has intelligence. Ok, but I think animals also can think logically take racoons put a brick on a garbage pale and watch them the first time they see it they will investigate it them evertully push the brick off and every time you put a brick on it will push it off change, tie the brick and they will chew through the sting/rope then push it off right before they push the brick off. One time a saw racoon push a wagon underneath a bird feeder then use the wagon to get at the bird feeder.

[Calhoun07]

The racoon story reminds me of my mom's dogs. She has two dogs, Sam and Brandi, and they both like sitting and sleeing in this chair by the window. Sam is not the most intelligent dog in the world (by any stretch of the imagination!) while Brandi is a coniving and scheming smart dog that gets what she wants. And it's rather easy for her to get the chair from Sam. She just pretends she wants to play and when Sam jumps from the chair to play, she jumps up and steals the chair from him. And she fools him ever time. So you can add deception to the attributes of the actions of animals and people. Tho Sam gives reason to believe animals are not intelligent and don't learn much! He gets fooled every time!

[hello_lola]

I think that animals are capable of rational thought, as do most people who have, or have had, pets. Anyone who has lived with an animal, and I'm not talking goldfish or gerbils, knows that they can be spiteful, apologetic, even reproachful. This is why we keep them around - feeding them, picking-up their crap, petting them - even though they don't have any money.

[don Jaime]

Hard to say. From what I've heard, consciousness, as in a sense of self-awareness, appears to be tied to language skills. In essence, consciousness is a conversation with yourself. Only humans have true language, so only we are conscious. Animals can develop impressive memories for different symbols, but lack the structural or creative components of language. Therefore, their consciousness is deeply limited to non-existant.

[Calhoun07]

I really think that is a homosapiencentric view point that dictates because we have the ability to talk that we are conscious. Dolphins, for example, and whales as well have displayed a complex form of communication that we really cannot understand. And apes are able to learn sign language and express their own thoughts and feelings with them. And I think that cats and dogs and other animals also possess the ability to communicate in complex ways with other members of their species that we really cannot comprehend.

I'm sorry, but it's bothered me that for a long period of history mankind has had this attitude that they are the center of the universe and all revolves around them. Heck, they even used to teach that Earth was the center of the universe, then when they found that out to be false, the sun must surely be the center of the galaxy. Then when that was discovered to not be the truth, the galaxy must be the center of the universe. Now they have discovered that may not be the truth either, that we rotate around a center of the universe just like the other galaxies.

Man has always had a tendancy to think more highly of itself over animals and the rest of creation, and I think it's misplaced. To paraphrase an old joke from Stephen Wright, "I thought one day that my brain is the greatest organ of my body. Then I remembered which part of my body was telling me that."

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by don Jaime
Hard to say. From what I've heard, consciousness, as in a sense of self-awareness, appears to be tied to language skills. In essence, consciousness is a conversation with yourself. Only humans have true language, so only we are conscious. Animals can develop impressive memories for different symbols, but lack the structural or creative components of language. Therefore, their consciousness is deeply limited to non-existant. That is not exactly true. Wolfs can call for reinforcments by howling isn't that comunication? Whales can also communicate with sounds so it is not that they don't have a language it is just hard for us to use their language to communicate with them

[DR. BELCH]

I don't think animals are sentient in the same sense people are--they can build crude shelters, communicate primitively, and feed themselves, but that isn't really thought. It's instinct coupled with rote learning. Animals learn through repetition, and if a variable is altered, it takes a while for them to account for it. Some don't. An animal cannot comprehend a complex abstract like rights or government (in most animal societies the biggest male or oldest female is arbitrarily the leader, until he/she grows old and dies/is bested by a younger stronger opponent--hardly democratic). They don't read or write or think in non-absolutes...so, sadly, that doesn't bear well for sentience.
I'll admit that some dogs condition better than others. Some dogs learn not to piddle the carpet after one or two mistakes; others live in igorance/open defiance of the rules, despite repeated punishments. In that they're somewhat human. But I have yet to see a dog reason that if the cooking grease he eats makes him vomit once, then it's not likely to not have the same effect the second, third, or forty-sixth time he eats it. It's cold hard id: "Grease tasty=me eat".

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
I don't think animals are sentient in the same sense people are--they can build crude shelters, communicate primitively, and feed themselves, but that isn't really thought. It's instinct coupled with rote learning. Animals learn through repetition, and if a variable is altered, it takes a while for them to account for it. Some don't. An animal cannot comprehend a complex abstract like rights or government (in most animal societies the biggest male or oldest female is arbitrarily the leader, until he/she grows old and dies/is bested by a younger stronger opponent--hardly democratic). They don't read or write or think in non-absolutes...so, sadly, that doesn't bear well for sentience.
I'll admit that some dogs condition better than others. Some dogs learn not to piddle the carpet after one or two mistakes; others live in igorance/open defiance of the rules, despite repeated punishments. In that they're somewhat human. But I have yet to see a dog reason that if the cooking grease he eats makes him vomit once, then it's not likely to not have the same effect the second, third, or forty-sixth time he eats it. It's cold hard id: "Grease tasty=me eat".

Humans learn thru instinct (hey, it's all we have at birth!) coupled with rote learning.

Humans learn thru repitition and they aren't always keen towards change or having variables altered anymore than our fourlegged counter parts. We like our carved out niches and having a sense of security, just as any animal would as well.

I will agree that there are more complex things about the human society that animals cannot comprehend, such as rights and laws and things that govern our society. But I really wonder at times if our government is chosen with any more intelligence and thought than how animals chose their leaders. In these times, you cannot expect me to believe that the image a politicial portrays thru the media is a not driving factor in choosing a president. When an episode of SNL can literally sway a political race in a completely different direction, I don't think we are much more advanced than animals there. And some would argue animals are more advanced because they don't need those things to govern their society!

And I really don't know how animals think, nor do I really know how people think, for that matter. That's all speculation there.

And I have yet to see people realize all the crap they put in their bodies causes them to vomit and get sick, especially things like alcohol and cigarettes, and it's likely to keep having the same effect, I have yet to see many of those people learn their lessons as well.

[Roman Legion]

Do animals possess sentient intelligence?First you'd need to define both sentience and intelligence, neither of which are easy to tack a simple description to. If you're asking if they're "aware" of themselves, then I'd have to say yes for a large number of vertebrates. I think it's a survival requirement for a great number of species, even if it's only on the level of being "spacially aware" for some creatures. Particularly in mammals and birds, there are far too many behaviors for feed-forward instinctual processing to even hope to handle.

Someone already brought up language... which has some difficult ties to comprehend. Which comes first, language or thought? Many people cannot comprehend thinking without language, and you wouldn't have language without thought. I'm not entirely sure why some think language is required for thought. Language is a learned behavior. Would anyone actually try to argue that if someone never learned a language then they wouldn't be sentient? (Ok, so some people might... scary) I may be speaking only for myself, but I've gone for good stretches thinking non-verbally. The idea that no one else commonly does this is rather frightening. Please tell me I'm wrong. =x

Think about this: Those who are deaf from birth obviously can't think with the same language constructs as the rest of the world, but it certainly does *not* impede their own intelligence. So how does their thought process work? Not being deaf from birth, I haven't a clue... perhaps thinking in terms of text? Doubtfull, because they'd obviously have to think in order to learn how to read in the first place. Or if they hadn't learned to read? How would their thought process work? Next closest thing would be sign-language... but wait... that's symbolic, right? Hmm, are we getting somewhere?

At the most basic level, what's required for learning? Some degree of awareness (spacial or otherwise), in order to process incoming information. If that's the most basic level of consciousness, and an animal demonstrates the ability to process information on that level, then dangit, I'll argue that it's self-aware.

As for other levels of thought, such as rational thought and abstraction, it probably varies from species to species. To get an idea whether it's there or not requires some observation. If it demonstrates what appears to be such thought, and we already agree it's self-aware, then double dangit, I'll argue it's capable of such.

--Romey

[Calico]

Do animals communicate? They sure as heck do. Mine are always speaking to me. Sometimes I wish they'd shut up (just kidding :D ) Actually my dogs know exactly what to do to get exactly what they want. Learned habits you say? Well yeah. Isn't that how we ALL learned how to speak. Say 'mama' and the female parent looks at you. Say 'baba' and you get a bottle stuck in your mouth. See a trend? Yes our higher brain structures allow us to verbalize each and every thought that we come across (to our advantage?), but when my dog stares at me and turns her head just right I know what she means, and when I respond with "You want to go out?" she knows exactly what I mean. The words by themselves mean absolutely nothing to her, but the phrase and how I say it does. That's communication folks, the transfer of an idea from one mind to another.

As for thought process, yes they do have a rudimentary grasp of reasoning. My other dog spends all day long on the couch. How do I know this? He leaves his hair everywhere. But he never does it in front of me! He knows he's not allowed up there, so he waits until we're gone to work. Coincidence??

I have two cats that are practically inseperable. When one is looking for the other they well yowl until the other one comes to them. Sounds like thought and communication to me.

Animals can communicate all right, you just have to be open to what they have to say.

[James]

I think there is no doubt there is sentience in some animals (and I point blank refuse to talk about the ENTIRE animal kingdom).

The point that animals routine stems from basic instinct and base learning and not sentient motivation, well, aren't we governed by such base instincts as well? Ego, pack loyality, dominace, hormones, sexual needs and drives.. all stem from the same base functions.

True, an animal is unlikely to make any real valid contribution to govenment structure or politcial history, but then neither can a baby, or possibly some one who is mentally handicapped - yet no one is so quick (or dares) to suggest they offer proof of non sentience.

I think there are some animals which work as a basic program, which have such tiny and basic physical attributes they are no more advanced that a ZX Spectrum.

As humans, despite an advanced society still form basic animal behaviour. We remain close under the protection of our parents, we grow and look for a mate. We come pocessive over that mate and have a child, the mother has a biological need to care for that child. The father too. The father has a more powerful sex drive to propagate with more women - the bull in the herd. The mother protects, the father breeds. This seems to be a human pattern. The basic animal drives are there. You could argue that our brain may be more complex than at least most animals (unless you work for FOX ;) ), but that's not a measure of sentience, that's a measure of intelligence.

I think there is enough to prove that animals are sentient - and even if they are not, it's best we treat them as such - otherwise how long before we judge our own races intelligence as proof of sentience?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
I don't think animals are sentient in the same sense people are--they can build crude shelters, communicate primitively, and feed themselves, but that isn't really thought. It's instinct coupled with rote learning. Animals learn through repetition, and if a variable is altered, it takes a while for them to account for it. Some don't. An animal cannot comprehend a complex abstract like rights or government (in most animal societies the biggest male or oldest female is arbitrarily the leader, until he/she grows old and dies/is bested by a younger stronger opponent--hardly democratic). They don't read or write or think in non-absolutes...so, sadly, that doesn't bear well for sentience.Yes wolves are basicly a monarchy with the strongest male and female at the top but it works for them plus it is not like they will do what ever the alpha male wants since if a wolf does not like his mini goverment he will challenge the leadership, split the pack and create his own or go solo and the path he choices has alot to do with his personality. Yet if we don't like our goverment we just sit in complain about it at lest most animals do something about it.

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Calico
Do animals communicate? They sure as heck do. Mine are always speaking to me. Sometimes I wish they'd shut up (just kidding :D ) Actually my dogs know exactly what to do to get exactly what they want. Learned habits you say? Well yeah. Isn't that how we ALL learned how to speak. Say 'mama' and the female parent looks at you. Say 'baba' and you get a bottle stuck in your mouth. See a trend? Yes our higher brain structures allow us to verbalize each and every thought that we come across (to our advantage?), but when my dog stares at me and turns her head just right I know what she means, and when I respond with "You want to go out?" she knows exactly what I mean. The words by themselves mean absolutely nothing to her, but the phrase and how I say it does. That's communication folks, the transfer of an idea from one mind to another.

As for thought process, yes they do have a rudimentary grasp of reasoning. My other dog spends all day long on the couch. How do I know this? He leaves his hair everywhere. But he never does it in front of me! He knows he's not allowed up there, so he waits until we're gone to work. Coincidence??

I have two cats that are practically inseperable. When one is looking for the other they well yowl until the other one comes to them. Sounds like thought and communication to me.

Animals can communicate all right, you just have to be open to what they have to say.

I really think that animals can understand what we say. Especially certain words if not entire phrases. Maybe they don't understand the "Do you want to" but they certainly pick on on "out." Or "ball" or "vet" (and pets ALWAYS know when the v word is being tossed around!). If scientists are correct, and dogs and cats generally possess the intelligence of a 5 year old, then I think they can understand common words and phrases spoken to them. I think they pick up on certain things over time and can comprehend them. One time, when I was younger and had a dog, my dog when up to my sister and my sister asked my dog, "Where's your ball?" Just once. And the dog looked around and found the ball, even tho it had been kind of hidden cuz she hadn't played with it for a few days. My sister was pretty amazed and asked me if I showed her where the ball was and I said no. I just know dogs are smart and can comprehend some of the basic things we say to them regularly.

[Calico]

Originally posted by Calhoun07


One time, when I was younger and had a dog, my dog when up to my sister and my sister asked my dog, "Where's your ball?" Just once. And the dog looked around and found the ball, even tho it had been kind of hidden cuz she hadn't played with it for a few days. My sister was pretty amazed and asked me if I showed her where the ball was and I said no. I just know dogs are smart and can comprehend some of the basic things we say to them regularly.

That's so funny! My dog's do that too. We'll say "Go get your ball" and both of them will get this strange look and then run around until they find a toy (it doesn't always have to be a ball- LOL). Sometimes they'll both try for the same toy so I'll say to Carson "Brandy's got your ball. Go get it" and he'll run after her and try to take it away.

You know, now that I think about it, there's like a dozen or so phrases my dogs respond to (not included sit, stay, etc where they've actually been trained).

[don Jaime]

Drat. I can't find my cite. The one thing that I can find deals with blindsight, which involves conscious and non-conscious visual perception, so I'm wrong about it being strictly linguistic. I'm convinced language is a big component, though. I'll keep looking.

I will stop and clarify a little on language. We are the only animal known to have it. Other animals can communicate, but they don't have language that we can see (jury's still out on whales). Most communication in animals boils down to "Hey!" or "Mine!" A few lab animals have picked up great vocabularies of human words, complete with a certain amount of purely symbolic content, but lack the grammar skills we're born with to do much with it. A three-year-old has better language skills than chimps, gorillas, or parrots are ever going to have.

Sign languages, like spoken ones, have grammatical rules and are picked up by toddlers the same way. Consciousness for the deaf is the same as in the hearing.

[Scythemantis]

Originally posted by Calhoun07
I really think that is a homosapiencentric view point that dictates because we have the ability to talk that we are conscious. Dolphins, for example, and whales as well have displayed a complex form of communication that we really cannot understand. And apes are able to learn sign language and express their own thoughts and feelings with them. And I think that cats and dogs and other animals also possess the ability to communicate in complex ways with other members of their species that we really cannot comprehend.

I'm sorry, but it's bothered me that for a long period of history mankind has had this attitude that they are the center of the universe and all revolves around them. Heck, they even used to teach that Earth was the center of the universe, then when they found that out to be false, the sun must surely be the center of the galaxy. Then when that was discovered to not be the truth, the galaxy must be the center of the universe. Now they have discovered that may not be the truth either, that we rotate around a center of the universe just like the other galaxies.

Man has always had a tendancy to think more highly of itself over animals and the rest of creation, and I think it's misplaced. To paraphrase an old joke from Stephen Wright, "I thought one day that my brain is the greatest organ of my body. Then I remembered which part of my body was telling me that."

I was going to reply to this topic, but then it would have been absolutely identical to what you just said. :D

My girlfriend and I are both big in zoology and biology and have lots and lots of pets. Animals make up our entire universe to us.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by don Jaime
I will stop and clarify a little on language. We are the only animal known to have it. Other animals can communicate, but they don't have language that we can see (jury's still out on whales). Most communication in animals boils down to "Hey!" or "Mine!" A few lab animals have picked up great vocabularies of human words, complete with a certain amount of purely symbolic content, but lack the grammar skills we're born with to do much with it. A three-year-old has better language skills than chimps, gorillas, or parrots are ever going to have.

Sign languages, like spoken ones, have grammatical rules and are picked up by toddlers the same way. Consciousness for the deaf is the same as in the hearing. Well lets take the wolf for example. When a wolf howls they are checking where other wolfs in their pack are since other wolves howl back they can keep track of roughly were each other is they can also howl to ask all the wolves in its pack to to come to its position. The position of their tail is like our face giving everone else a clue on emotional tones. Female wolves will bark (I think it is a bark been) telling the alpha male she is in heat. and like most animals they can comunicate basic ideas like back off, that hurts, I'm happy, Alarm! and such. Animals language skills varies but they have enough for their needs

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

A Whale swims around in the ocean...it sings to other whale's...is it some kind of language we can't comprehend? Maybe it is. Whale's are not as scientifically advanced as humans are. (For example they have no Cars, airplanes and other inventions) But that could be because the have no arms...who really knows if Whale's are less intelegent than humans...we may never know. Cool thread Calhoun07.

[DR. BELCH]

The dictionary defines SENTIENT as "being able to feel or percieve". Granted, an animal can feel pain if its tail is yanked or its paw is trod upon. Elephants and dogs mourn their dead (I had a female who actaully stopped eating and starved to death after her aging mate disappeared). But until an animal sits down next to me and says, "I feel very bad that my mate died,", or the cat learns to say, "May I please have some macaroni and cheese?", I can't recognize them as fully intelligent and thinking creatures. George Carlin said of children that there are "a few winners...a whole lot of losers"...and animals are much the same. Some dogs never learn not to piddle the floor and a cat will seldom ask for a bite of your food--they'll just reach up and eat off your plate right in your face. (Don't be fooled--sometimes they appear to be patient but they're either waiting for you to look away or are conditioned to understand that grab=punishment.)
True intelligence is the ability to grasp abstract concepts, or to have the ability to learn to, which an animal cannot, no matter how human it seems. Maybe a dog grieves for its lost mate or master, but I once saw a cat who didn't recognize her lover (a poodle--she was a little confused) after a bath and a haircut. She was leery of him for weeks. Make of that what you will....

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
The dictionary defines SENTIENT as "being able to feel or percieve". Granted, an animal can feel pain if its tail is yanked or its paw is trod upon. Elephants and dorgs mourn their dead (I had a female who actaully stopped eating and starved to death after her aging mate disappeared). But until an animal sits down next to me and says, "I feel very bad that my mate died,", or the cat learns to say, "May I please have some macaroni and cheese?", I can't recognize them as fully intelligent and thinking creatures. Say you are in a foreign land and you sit down and ask for some macaroni and cheese but no one understands you so you point to some does that make you any less intelligent? Animals can not directly communicate with us and many relize this so bascily they are dumming down to be able for us to understand what they are tring to tell us. The does not make them any less intelligent.

[Calico]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
The dictionary defines SENTIENT as "being able to feel or percieve". Granted, an animal can feel pain if its tail is yanked or its paw is trod upon. Elephants and dogs mourn their dead (I had a female who actaully stopped eating and starved to death after her aging mate disappeared). But until an animal sits down next to me and says, "I feel very bad that my mate died,", or the cat learns to say, "May I please have some macaroni and cheese?", I can't recognize them as fully intelligent and thinking creatures. George Carlin said of children that there are "a few winners...a whole lot of losers"...and animals are much the same. Some dogs never learn not to piddle the floor and a cat will seldom ask for a bite of your food--they'll just reach up and eat off your plate right in your face. (Don't be fooled--sometimes they appear to be patient but they're either waiting for you to look away or are conditioned to understand that grab=punishment.)
True intelligence is the ability to grasp abstract concepts, or to have the ability to learn to, which an animal cannot, no matter how human it seems. Maybe a dog grieves for its lost mate or master, but I once saw a cat who didn't recognize her lover (a poodle--she was a little confused) after a bath and a haircut. She was leery of him for weeks. Make of that what you will....

As far as the cat who didn't recognize her 'friend' the poodle (BTW that's just so cute!) cats and dogs do not recognize people or other animals by sight, so it wasn't the haircut. Even though cats have an incredible visual system their brains just don't function like that. Your cat didn't recognize Fifi because of the bath. Animals rely much more heavily on their olfactory sense and have many, many times more nerve endings in their noses than humans and can 'smell' a whole variety of information (hence the comical sniffing of the butt upon meeting, or males leaving their scent all around their territory to mark it). So the bath masked Fifi's real smell. The important thing is she did eventually recognize the dog (I assume) and things went back to normal.

I agree with Psycho Fox's allegory about visiting a foreign land. Language is extremely subjective. Was Helen Keller not a sensient being before learning sign language? And animals do tell you when they're feeling good or bad. One of my pair of cats that are thick as thieves had to spend a week in the hospital and the other one spent the whole week telling us exactly how much he missed his friend. There was no mistaking his feelings on the matter.

And, yes, cats will steal from the plate if given a change, but so will dogs. That's the natural feeding instinct kicking in. Couple million years ago humans were clubbing each other upside the head to get the best piece of meat. We've evolved, devloped societies and social skills. No one's saying that animals are at a same level as humans. We just have larger, more developed brains. But they do have a rudimentary awareness of their little part of the world and there is some reasoning going on.

[Calhoun07]

I know dogs and cats can express when they feel bad. They may not be able to communicate in English when they are depressed or need our support, but they do have body language, will come up to you for comfort, and can tell you fantoms with their eyes.

I mentioned my dog earlier. She always seemed to know when I was hurting and would come to me at those times, and somehow I always knew when she was hurting too. I didn't have to tell her, nor did she have to tell me. It was a knowing that exists between pets and their owners. One of the last days I saw my dog alive, I was home for Christmas and I was sitting in a chair in my mom's house and I looked down at my dog, and her eyes told me she was hurting and wanted me to comfort her, so I sat on the floor beside her and pet her. A short while later she got up and had some kind of seizure and her gums were all white. I had to leave to go back to school the next day, and my dog died a week later on New Years Day. When my mom told me how she never wanted to hear the howl she let out before she died, I wondered if perhaps my dog's howl wasn't only of pain but wondering where I was. To say a pet's emotions aren't valid because they can't put the feelings into words is so....I dunno...it almost sound insensitive. Pets are like our children, and children can't always articulate what is wrong with them and why they hurt and are depressed but that doesn't mean they are any less intelligent or vital because of that. And our pets will live and die as children, but just because they may never be more intellignet than the average 5 year old doesn't invalidate animals as thinking and comprehending and reactive creatures.

As for dogs that don't learn to not piddle on the floor....Well, that's not necessarily a house breaking thing. Some dogs piddle on the floor because they get anxiety attacks or due to other emotional problems. Pets are too complex to pigeon hole into one category and to assume because one dog piddles on the floor for one reason that all dogs must piddle on the floor for the same reason. I don't know which is sadder...the dog that doesn't learn to piddle on the floor or the owner who never bothers to learn WHY the dog is continuing to piddle on the floor. There are often emotional and behavioral things that are deeper than the surface problem, and it's the responsibility of the pet owner to learn what it is and deal with it.

And as for the recognization thing....I agree about the smell thing. We've had dogs before that would bark their fool heads off like we were intruders when they saw us from far away but calmed down once we got closer and they could smell us. But just because dogs and cats uses different means to identify others also doesn't mean they are any less intelligent.

[Roman Legion]

Originally posted by Calico
As far as the cat who didn't recognize her 'friend' the poodle (BTW that's just so cute!) cats and dogs do not recognize people or other animals by sight, so it wasn't the haircut. Even though cats have an incredible visual system their brains just don't function like that.

Though that fails to explain my sister's dog immediately recognizing a family member walking out of a store from 30 to 40 feet away. She does this all the time. Then again, she never behaved like a normal dog in the first place... ;-)

--Romey

[Calhoun07]

Originally posted by Romey


Though that fails to explain my sister's dog immediately recognizing a family member walking out of a store from 30 to 40 feet away. She does this all the time. Then again, she never behaved like a normal dog in the first place... ;-)

--Romey

Some animals are just sharper than others!

[TuffyCatt]

Animals are physically incapable of communicating like we do. Its obvious that they can understand some human words ( ball, food, out). Since they can recognize these words I'm sure that if they were capable, they would begin repeating them to let us know what they want. But, since my cat's vocal cords won't allow him to tell me "food" when he's hungry, he's finds another way to to let me know what he wants, sunch as reaching up and tapping me on the leg when I'm sitting at the dinner table. I understand what he wants, and we've communicated. Although he can't say "food" he can clearly understand when I say "Tuffy, here's your food" and comes running to me, and does the opposite when I say "Tuffy, time for you to be brushed", even if I say both phrases with the same tone of voice.

Another thing that I think shows animal's ability to think and feel emotions is the fact that they are able to dream. Have you ever watched a dog or a cat dream? It's really interesting. Most often you can tell that they're dreaming when they're dreaming about something that upsets them . They'll start breathing heavier and will let out a few cries, but don't wake up. If an animal is able to feel these types of emotions and be upset from a dream, I think that they can definitely feel , think, understand, and have pretty complex emotions. They may not be as complex as our emotions or intellegence, but they definintely posses them.