In retrospect, was the 4kids TMNT series a success?

[CyberCubed]

Since there's strong indications that the show is finally coming to a close this season, as well as one DTV coming out in June, how do you think this show is going to be remembered?

Obviously it failed to repeat the same levels of tremendous success as the original 80's TMNT cartoon. Not only was that show a phenomenon, but it lasted 10 seasons and made 193 total episodes, which is completely unheard of for most cartoon shows. It really did have an amazing run from 1987 to 1996.

Now we have the TMNT 2k3 series. It started in 2003 and its looking like it'll end in 2009. It only lasted 7 seasons. It will have 155 total episodes plus one DTV if it concludes this year. In terms of episodes, it failed to reach the episode count of the original.

For all intents and purposes the show was always in the shadow of the original series, even though fan reaction toward it was overwhelmingly positive. My question is, what is TMNT 2k3's legacy?

The 80's toon is still remembered fondly over a decade since it ended, but the 2k3 series doesn't have the kids to remember it as much. It almost feels as if the entire show is going to be forgotten once it ends, most likely cause it aired on 4kidsTV, and nobody watched that. I honestly don't know if the show can be considered a success or not. Most people didn't know about it, it aired on an obscure Saturday morning block, and it will wind up forgotten about outside of the hardcore TMNT fanbase.

So, what is TMNT 2k3's legacy?

[creativerealms]

Well a 155 episodes is un heard of for an American cartoon too. It's quite amazing quite the achievement. Yes it did not reach or top the old series in episodes but it's own episode count is still quite the achievement. Did it fail because it did not beat the old show's episode count? No. How many Saturday Morning cartoons actually got to celabate having a 100th episode? Not a lot.

Sadly this show will be forgotten but it was a success, it pleased the fans and it lasted a long time. It did better then most other revivals regardless of their quality.

So yes it was a success in a sense but sadly it will be forgotten and will always be hidden behind the shadow of the old show.

[Tobias]

How many Saturday Morning cartoons actually got to celabate having a 100th episode? Not a lot.

Sadly this show will be forgotten but it was a success, it pleased the fans and it lasted a long time. It did better then most other revivals regardless of their quality.

So yes it was a success in a sense but sadly it will be forgotten and will always be hidden behind the shadow of the old show.

I think only Scooby Doo, Smurfs, The Real Ghostbusters and the 80's TMNT show can claim that title, although I think Alvin & The Chipmunks came pretty close. Most Saturday morning cartoons barely lasted past two seasons.

But I think the main reason the current TMNT toon will be forgotten once it ends is because unless Disney XD aquires the airing rights, no other channel will have it. It failed to gain an audience on CN, and Boomerang would just shove it into a late night slot and only run the first season's episodes.

Basically, XD is TMNT's only hope of staying on the air and in kid's minds after the 09 season.

[J!!!]

I think only Scooby Doo, Smurfs, The Real Ghostbusters and the 80's TMNT show can claim that title, although I think Alvin & The Chipmunks came pretty close. Most Saturday morning cartoons barely lasted past two seasons.

But I think the main reason the current TMNT toon will be forgotten once it ends is because unless Disney XD aquires the airing rights, no other channel will have it. It failed to gain an audience on CN, and Boomerang would just shove it into a late night slot and only run the first season's episodes.

Basically, XD is TMNT's only hope of staying on the air and in kid's minds after the 09 season.
Disney XD doesn't have the 2k3 show and probably never will.

[Terror of Death]

I'm really confused about why this show didn't catch on like the other great comic book cartoons. The animation, writing, and all that other good stuff was a lot better than most cartoons of its time yet it didn't develop a large following. Even when it aired on a better channel (CN) it didn't seem like it gained any popularity.

Its really upsetting most people don't know how great of a cartoon this show really is. It will go down as one of the most underrated cartoons ever. I feel the same way about The Batman. Forever living in the shadow of its predecessor to the general public.

[chdr]

Disney XD has the 2k3 show:eek: since when?They don't.

Just because Disney XD saved The Spectacular Spider-Man doesn't mean they'll save every other Saturday Morning show out there.

[Antiyonder]

It failed to gain an audience on CN, and Boomerang would just shove it into a late night slot and only run the first season's episodes.

Personally I think it's up to debate on whether CN handled the show well when they aired it. I mean a cartoon doesn't make it up to 100 episodes unless it did something right (especially in a decade where the majority of cartoons die at 39-52).

[Tobias]

Disney XD has the 2k3 show:eek: since when?

They don't, but it seems like something they'd aquire given the chance considering all the other boy-centric shows they've got (Spider-Man; Superman/Batman; Power Rangers; Aaron Stone; etc). It just seems like a natural fit for the channel to pick the show up.

[Gokou Ruri]

I'm really confused about why this show didn't catch on like the other great comic book cartoons. The animation, writing, and all that other good stuff was a lot better than most cartoons of its time yet it didn't develop a large following. Even when it aired on a better channel (CN) it didn't seem like it gained any popularity.

Its really upsetting most people don't know how great of a cartoon this show really is. It will go down as one of the most underrated cartoons ever. I feel the same way about The Batman. Forever living in the shadow of its predecessor to the general public. 1. Nostlagia for the 80s show turned older people away.
2. Airing on a network no one watches. No matter how good a show is, if no one knows about it/can watch it then it's doomed.
3. Was probably too creative for most viewers to comprehend (each episode flowing into the next with not much downtime, and so forth). Would explain why they tried to dumb it down in the later seasons and make it more episodic to maybe attract a new audience.

[Old Guy]

Speaking as a person who grew up on the original and has siblings who are children of this era I have this to say:

When the new series premiered in 2003 I was excited. I watched it and loved it. Then, they did Fast Forward and I lost interest. And many others will say the same thing.

The show had 155 episodes, which is impressive, but that's only cause it aired on a block that had nothing better to air. Had it aired on Kids WB or CN it wouldn't have made it past Fast Foward. And, kids today don't really care about the show. It aired on 4Kids which is one of least popular blocks. I think kids will remember the show the same way we remember the CBS episodes of the original. Yes, we're aware of its existance but it's the syndication episodes we actually care about.

[CyberCubed]

Fast Forward wasn't a bad concept, it was just a step-down from the previous 5 seasons. I recently rewatched all 26 episodes of FF and realized I did enjoy most of the episodes. Its a fairly fun arc with a new rogues gallery, and it does have a season long story with a conclusion. I never had any problems with it much.

[Old Guy]

Fast Forward wasn't a bad concept, it was just a step-down from the previous 5 seasons. I recently rewatched all 26 episodes of FF and realized I did enjoy most of the episodes. Its a fairly fun arc with a new rogues gallery, and it does have a season long story with a conclusion. I never had any problems with it much.

The idea of time traveling Turtles reminded people too much of TMNT III. It was a turn-off. And speaking of movies...I think the 2007 CGI movie will probably be more remembered than the series. Why? Cause it was a legit hit! It opened at #1 (to the shock of everyone) and ended up grossing $95 million worldwide. While the series was only successful in 4Kids standards.

[Terror of Death]

Fast Forward wasn't a bad concept, it was just a step-down from the previous 5 seasons. I recently rewatched all 26 episodes of FF and realized I did enjoy most of the episodes. Its a fairly fun arc with a new rogues gallery, and it does have a season long story with a conclusion. I never had any problems with it much.

I agree. After rewatching it I gained a new love for FF. Its given more flak than it deserves.

[CyberCubed]

I agree. After rewatching it I gained a new love for FF. Its given more flak than it deserves.

Much of the original backlash for it was because 4kids skipped over Season 5 and aired FF out of order like idiots.

I bet had Season 5 aired first in its proper place, FF wouldn't have gotten that initial backlash. We were all hyped at the time to see this "Demon Shredder" and then all of a sudden we see the Turtles in the future. I blame 4kids for not airing the seasons in the proper order. Of course now it doesn't matter anymore, as we have the DVDs and we watch it in the correct order.

Sure, the animation was cheaper and we had to stomach "It's Ninja Time!" in every damn episode, but other than that it was fairly decent. All I can say is thank goodness BTTS got rid of "It's Ninja Time!" that was truly one of the only major things of FF that bugged me.

[creativerealms]

while we can blame 4kids for airing the later seasons out of order (God the airing of season four pissed me off) at the same time he have to thank them for allowing season five to be released at all. They did not have to allow the crew to make the lost season at all. So thanks for allowing those twelve episodes to be completed 4kids but damn you for almost shelving the Demon Shedder season all together.

[ABrown]

As far as I'm concerned, the 2003 TMNT cartoon was a huge success. The DCAU Superman cartoon only had what? 50 some episodes? The 2002 MYP He-Man had only 39 episodes. I would've been more than satisfied if the Fast Forward and Back To The Sewer episodes were never made. I just look at those as bonus episodes.

[CyberCubed]

In terms of episode count I agree that its great we got so many episodes, but what I mean by success is...did anyone know and/or care about it outside of hardcore TMNT fans?

It honestly feels as if the only people who tuned into this show were fans of the old 80's Turtles who grew up and wanted to see a new incarnation.

Did this show attract anyone NEW to the TMNT franchise?

[DarthGonzo]

In terms of episode count I agree that its great we got so many episodes, but what I mean by success is...did anyone know and/or care about it outside of hardcore TMNT fans?

It honestly feels as if the only people who tuned into this show were fans of the old 80's Turtles who grew up and wanted to see a new incarnation.

Did this show attract anyone NEW to the TMNT franchise?

I don't believe so, and I do agree with everything you just said.

This show was successful for what it was, but it was never a mega-hit. Doubtful it will go down in history as anything special.

[Terra Branford]

Well, it has aired for a couple of years now so it must've been successful in the eyes of 4Kids. Was it successful in my eyes? I would say yes because of its duration and the amount of money it made over the years. Did it make a lot of money? I don't know but it seemed to make enough to continue airing.

To be honest, I've never heard of TMNT until its 4Kids days.

[D Dubbs]

Did this show attract anyone NEW to the TMNT franchise?

There are hundreds and hundreds of kid posters at the TMNT 4Kids forums (http://forums.4kids.tv/forumdisplay.php?f=10&order=desc). It may not have been a mega-hit like the 80's series, but there are still many kids who enjoyed watching the show.

[PC!]

Clearly TMNT 2K3 was a success, or it wouldn't have lasted 7 years and over 100 episodes. We all know 4Kids would've dropped it like a hot potato a long time ago if it wasn't successful.

[TheTerror]

I would say TMNT was a success, but I wouldn't say it was particularly good, but it did have it's moments early on in the series. Mainly the first 20 or so episodes.

[creativerealms]

I would say the first four seasons were consistantly good with a few bumps here or there. The Tribunal season really did not do much for me and while i likes fastforward and BttS for what they were they still were not as great as the rest of the season.

[CyberCubed]

Every good show has a few bad eps here and there. B:TAS had its fair share of stinkers too.

[Marvin Tikvah]

I think it's a success. 7 seasons, lots of merchandise, and glowing reviews from people who aren't wearing nostalgia googles. It also helps that it is one of the last few saturday morning cartoons to be written as a continous story.

Anyone who honestly felt it would become the phenomenon that was the 80s cartoon was lying to themselves. TMNT was a fad, and fads hardly ever reach their original popularity once they die down. Look at Pokemon and Power Rangers. They were considered fads early in their run, the popularity eventually died down (because of kids growing up) and yet they are still making money for their companies.

It is quite sad though that the show will remain an underrated gem due to coming so late after the original show. Especially since 80s fans will probably be convinced it was just another attempt at making an extreme version of another show.

[Old Guy]

As far as I'm concerned, the 2003 TMNT cartoon was a huge success. The DCAU Superman cartoon only had what? 50 some episodes? The 2002 MYP He-Man had only 39 episodes. I would've been more than satisfied if the Fast Forward and Back To The Sewer episodes were never made. I just look at those as bonus episodes.

But...again...that's only cause it aired on 4Kids. 4Kids had nothing better to air. Had it aired on Kids WB or CN it wouldn't have lasted as long.

[macattack]

The way I see it, the first 4 seasons and the lost season are triumphs by themselves. It is the ultimate SatAM cartoon, telling intelligent, yet straightforward storytelling, but also carefully balancing action/drama with character development while letting Mikey handle comic relief. TMNT 2003 is one of the few SatAM cartoons that truly enthralled me (which shamelessly includes the "filler" Orihalcos YGO season).

I view FF as an abomination but I do feel that BTTS let the show return to its roots some. However, if the DTV does not end on a reasonable note I'll simply treat FF and BTTS as bonus episodes, rather than part of the continuity.

I'm sure at some point the show will be rebooted down the line the way YGO, Gundam, He-Man, and GI Joe always are, but until then, TMNT 2003, which lasted seasons upon seasons of episodes (the first two seasons alone constituted 52 episodes overall) is a stellar example of how you make a good action/adventure cartoon, PERIOD. It is the Turn A Gundam of American cartoons, a classic, but it won't be appreciated until years after its conclusion.

[sdp]

Well one thing thats not discussed is most of us were kids when the original TMNT air and not when the new toon aired. So how do we exactly know it didn't pick up a lot of kids fans?

I find it hard to believe that a show that lasted that long is really not known about. Yeah if you ask people who grew up with the old show most have no idea this show existed but we don't know so much about kids. Obviously toy sales were good and no way was it only because of older tmnt fans.

[CyberCubed]

Well one thing thats not discussed is most of us were kids when the original TMNT air and not when the new toon aired. So how do we exactly know it didn't pick up a lot of kids fans?

You generally don't see a lot of kids talk about TMNT nowadays. If you go up to your average 8-10 year old, most of them are into Pokemon, Batman, Yugioh, various anime, etc.

How many new kid TMNT fans have you ever seen in real life? It honestly doesn't seem like it caught on at all. Its as I said, this show appealed to us older fans who originally watched the old show as kids.


I find it hard to believe that a show that lasted that long is really not known about. Yeah if you ask people who grew up with the old show most have no idea this show existed but we don't know so much about kids. Obviously toy sales were good and no way was it only because of older tmnt fans.

Considering the show never had a weekday rerun slot (and it only aired on CN for what...a year?), most kids didn't get to see it consistently outside of Saturday mornings.

And honestly, who watched 4kidsTV when KidsWB was around back then? TMNT aired on an obscure channel that didn't even get broadcast in some states.

This has always been a niche show, its like nobody ever knew about it.

[D Dubbs]

But...again...that's only cause it aired on 4Kids. 4Kids had nothing better to air. Had it aired on Kids WB or CN it wouldn't have lasted as long.

Well, that's half true.

4Kids could have cancelled the show at anytime. It had mediocre ratings, even in comparison to the rest of Fox Box/4Kids TV, and those ratings certainly didn't warrant 150 episodes and the $50,000,000+ 4Kids spent on producing it. The toy and merchandise sales helped balanced out the production costs, but that only lasted for one or two years, at most.

The real reason that TMNT lasted so long is that whenever 4Kids decides to produce their own in-house produced show, they give it amazing respect and dedication. It's the same reason why Viva Pinata had 104 episodes produced and why Chaotic will branch out over seven seasons.

[mumbo]

For at least Season 3 or 4 - I've never seen ratings before those - TMNT would place in the bottom half ratings-wise on 4Kids' block. I recall that Season 3 generally only did better than One Piece and Shaman King on the block. So it's not just the channel. The ratings peaked during Fast Forward (due to the release of the movie no doubt) and it's been a solid ratings performer ever since, though those last seasons will never be remembered as classics by any standard, and it was mostly just kids who liked them.

I think the fact that the show wasn't all that accessible to non-fans was a big factor, I mean continuity was pretty heavy for the first four seasons. That and unlike Spider-Man, Batman, and so on, who have been constantly present in the media for decades, TMNT basically disappeared altogether after the 87 cartoon ended, so there was probably a lot less knowledge of the franchise among kids as compared to other superhero franchises, and thus it lacked that pre-installed kid fanbase to tap into. I mean the legion fans of the original cartoon had largely outgrown Saturday morning cartoons by the time this new series rolled around - the original cartoon lasted so long they had probably outgrown Saturday morning cartoons by the time the original cartoon itself had ended.

I don't know, my personal experience is that pretty much all of my friends knew about the series and just plain passed over it. Weren't interested for whatever reason.

So I think while not necessarily a monetary success, I think it succeeded in pretty much every other way - whlie taking a lot from the comics, it had its own identity, it had a long healthy run especially compared to other series nowadays, and besides the last two seasons will be remembered fondly within the fanbase as a worthy universe.

[Old Guy]

I find it hard to believe that a show that lasted that long is really not known about.

No one has said that it's unknown. What people have said is that it is irrelevant. Kids knew it existed but didn't care. It's the same way as the CBS version of the original is treated. We know it's there but it's the syndication one thats relevant.

[creativerealms]

Didn't the Turtles get some of their highest ratings Late Last year when 4kids TV had a "Best of the Ninja Turtles" hour?

Of course it is kind of sad when reruns from the first two seasons get the show's best ratings.

[Old Guy]

Didn't the Turtles get some of their highest ratings Late Last year when 4kids TV had a "Best of the Ninja Turtles" hour?

Of course it is kind of sad when reruns from the first two seasons get the show's best ratings.

It must have cause my affliate was still airing those till FOX pulled the plug. But it aired at 7am.

[CyberCubed]

No one has said that it's unknown. What people have said is that it is irrelevant. Kids knew it existed but didn't care. It's the same way as the CBS version of the original is treated. We know it's there but it's the syndication one thats relevant.

That doesn't make much sense, the original series is all the same show.

[Old Guy]

That doesn't make much sense, the original series is all the same show.

By 1993 the fad was over. Power Rangers were the new obsession. Yet, CBS continued to produce episodes till 1996. No one, outside the hardcore fanbase, cared about these episodes. Especially since they eventually got rid of Shredder and Krang. So, my point was: we know of these episodes but that doesn't mean we care about them. Especially since the syndication episodes are the ones that people remember the most for whatever reason. The show was popular on CBS from 1990-93 but I guess since that was on Saturday mornings and the syndication ones (`87-90) continued to air 5 days a week people simply remember those more cause they saw it more.

[CyberCubed]

That is true, but its all the same show. I consider Season 10 the last season, not Season 7.

[ABrown]

did anyone know and/or care about it outside of hardcore TMNT fans? It honestly feels as if the only people who tuned into this show were fans of the old 80's Turtles who grew up and wanted to see a new incarnation. Did this show attract anyone NEW to the TMNT franchise?

You generally don't see a lot of kids talk about TMNT nowadays. If you go up to your average 8-10 year old, most of them are into Pokemon, Batman, Yugioh, various anime, etc. How many new kid TMNT fans have you ever seen in real life? It honestly doesn't seem like it caught on at all. Its as I said, this show appealed to us older fans who originally watched the old show as kids.

Did this show's success come largely from adults who grew up watching the original TMNT cartoon? Absolutely. But I know that this show did introduce the world of TMNT to an entirely new generation of kids. I made certain that my 8 year old was exposed to this show. And when I took him to see the 2007 TMNT movie, I saw tons of kids there who I'm sure weren't there because they were fans of the original show. There's no way that they were, they went to see that movie because they were fans of this show.

[Light Lucario]

I would say that this show is a success. It would be hard not to be with being an animated series with seven seasons and over 150 episodes under its belt. Getting over a hundred episodes alone is a great feat for most cartoon series nowadays. I wasn't old enough to watch much of the 80's series so I can't compare the two series. As for if it will be remembered or not, I think that it will, but it helps that I've watched most of the series. I think the only way people can know if it will be forgotten or remember is if they see if the series survives the test of time. I personally can't say for sure it will be remembered or not simply because time does that more effectively than people do.

[Old Guy]

It'll be remembered cause it's part of the Turtles history. We remember Next Mutation and that sucked so why wouldn't we remember a good version? However, it will only be remembered by people interested in the Turtles. Those who are not interested will forget it or not know about it at all.

[CyberCubed]

TMNT fans will remember it of course, but will casual fans? Will cartoon fans in general?

Doesn't seem like it.

[sdp]

the tmnt fanbase will remember it. I'm not sure about regular Ninja turtle fans who just grew up with the show. Most of those wouldn't even give it a chance because theres no krang/comedy.

And I think animation fans in general will remember it, various forums I frequent usually have a TMNT thread. Not to mention the kids who grew up with this show which even if it wasn't a craze like the OT there's still plenty.

[mumbo]

Yeah, it won't be widely remembered by casual fans but at the very least most cartoon fans, specifically action cartoon enthusiasts, will remember it.

Hell it should probably be required viewing for action cartoon fans, it can stand up among many of the greats. It won't be but it should.

[CyberCubed]

I think another problem is assuming there is a third TMNT cartoon reboot sometime down the road with a different company, this series will be sandwiched in the "middle" of the original cartoon and whatever the third cartoon winds up being. It'll wind up being the TMNT cartoon that nobody remembers happened.

It's also noticeable that none of the new characters in this series are recognizable outside its fanbase. Everyone knows who Bebop and Rocksteady are, but if I ask someone who Hun or Bishop is, who is really going to know unless you watched the series?

This series was probably too ambitious for its own good. Its like it tried to be something really great but older people did not care, and kids could not get into it because of the continuity.

It truly never did find an audience. Its a shame it failed to attract a new kid audience, and at the same time, older people either didn't want to bother with it or were disinterested.

Well, like most cartoons, it will now be forgotten within the sands of time, even the DVD sales aren't that great. I suppose being a "niche" show is somewhat a good thing, as it doesn't get that annoying fanbase the more popular shows get. Oh well, better luck next time, Turtles.

[Light Lucario]

I think another problem is assuming there is a third TMNT cartoon reboot sometime down the road with a different company, this series will be sandwiched in the "middle" of the original cartoon and whatever the third cartoon winds up being. It'll wind up being the TMNT cartoon that nobody remembers happened.

It's also noticeable that none of the new characters in this series are recognizable outside its fanbase. Everyone knows who Bebop and Rocksteady are, but if I ask someone who Hun or Bishop is, who is really going to know unless you watched the series?

I actually have no clue who Bebop or Rocksteady are. Of course, the only thing I'm at least generally familiar with TMNT is the 2k3 series and the three live-action movies. I haven't watched the new one yet.

I'm sure that the series will have a reboot sometime down the line, depending on whether or not that the franchise is still profitable then, which I'm sure is possible. I'm not sure how that would exactly make this series forgotten though. People who grew up watching the 2k3 series will most likely remember it then just like the people who grew up watching the original series still remember the it. There is also the possibility of people watching a possible reboot in the future and getting into the other series through the newest one.


This series was probably too ambitious for its own good. Its like it tried to be something really great but older people did not care, and kids could not get into it because of the continuity.

It truly never did find an audience. Its a shame it failed to attract a new kid audience, and at the same time, older people either didn't want to bother with it or were disinterested.

Well, like most cartoons, it will now be forgotten within the sands of time, even the DVD sales aren't that great. I suppose being a "niche" show is somewhat a good thing, as it doesn't get that annoying fanbase the more popular shows get. Oh well, better luck next time, Turtles.

I think that it's important to keep in mind that it's hard for any show to have mega-hit status that allows it to become more well known outside of its general fanbase. Let alone survive the test of time. Besides, I still think that we can't say how well it will survive through time since it is still a fairly recent series.

Just because the 2k3 series wasn't a big of a hit doesn't really diminish the success it has. As others have mentioned before, how many animated series have over a hundred and fifty episodes nowadays? Not that many if I recall correctly.

[Antiyonder]

But...again...that's only cause it aired on 4Kids. 4Kids had nothing better to air. Had it aired on Kids WB or CN it wouldn't have lasted as long.

And just how many cartoons on KidsWB and CN even made it to 100 episodes this decade? I'm not counting animes as they are cheaper to dub as opposed to putting together their own shows. Only show I can think of on CN that made it that far was Ed Edd and Eddy and even then, it started in the 90s.

[Ian]

Honestly, CyberCubed, I think you're setting an impossible standard for success, here. The first series' longevity was unusual in the first place, so asking them to replicate when the franchise has much less going for it at the moment it is setting it up for failure.

Personally (and I realize my metrics are no less arbitrary or biased than Cybercubed's) my standards for success are as follows:

Did the cartoon represent its source material faithfully? Yes. While it had a good share of deviations from its source material, it successfully (IMO) adapted most of the comic books major storylines, and even improved upon some of them.

Did it bring something new to the table? Heck yes. I fully expect the series' contribution to the mythos will be felt in future incarnations--heck, the fact that Hun and the Battle Nexus were incorporated into the main Mirage canon--something no element from the original cartoon did--has already proven that the show's influence extends beyond itself.

Was it enjoyable? Does this really need to be argued?

Yes, it never got the popularity of something like Justice League Unlimited, nor will it get the dedicated following of something like Gargoyles, and I find that dissapointing, since I feel the series deserved it. However, I won't stake my happiness on what other people think, and I'm plenty satisfied with what we got. While there are stories yet to tell (which will always be the case) I feel that at this point, an ongoing series is not the way to best tell them.

[CyberCubed]

Its true that it was a success in the fact that it accomplished what it set out to do, but at the same time it feels like the show could have still accomplished a bit more.

155 episodes and a DTV is a decent run, but I expected a full 200 episodes out of the series so it could match the original shows run. If it ends now, it'll only feel like it "half" accomplished it. Its a damn shame that we didn't make it to 200 episodes, and it originally looked like we might have been able to do so.

[sdp]

Well if the show gets a new reboot I don't think it necessarily will make the 2k3 forgotten unless its very successful. This isn't The Batman, Its like saying BTAS would be forgotten because its between The batman and the old Batman cartoon. Though I'd like it if a new re-boot was highly successful and surpassed 2k3 in popularity. I mean we'd still have 2k3 anyways. Though the high standards of 2k3 makes me think it'd be hard to make a better show unless it was a lot darker which I don't see happening, I actually think a re-boot would be more like the proposed TMNT by playmates a more friendly OT like show.

Also I think a reboot wold only end up lasting the standard 52/65 episodes. 2k3 had a lot of luck for it to get that high episode wise.

[TheTerror]

Honestly, CyberCubed, I think you're setting an impossible standard for success, here. The first series' longevity was unusual in the first place, so asking them to replicate when the franchise has much less going for it at the moment it is setting it up for failure.

Personally (and I realize my metrics are no less arbitrary or biased than Cybercubed's) my standards for success are as follows:

Did the cartoon represent its source material faithfully? Yes. While it had a good share of deviations from its source material, it successfully (IMO) adapted most of the comic books major storylines, and even improved upon some of them.

Did it bring something new to the table? Heck yes. I fully expect the series' contribution to the mythos will be felt in future incarnations--heck, the fact that Hun and the Battle Nexus were incorporated into the main Mirage canon--something no element from the original cartoon did--has already proven that the show's influence extends beyond itself.

Was it enjoyable? Does this really need to be argued?

Yes, it never got the popularity of something like Justice League Unlimited, nor will it get the dedicated following of something like Gargoyles, and I find that dissapointing, since I feel the series deserved it. However, I won't stake my happiness on what other people think, and I'm plenty satisfied with what we got. While there are stories yet to tell (which will always be the case) I feel that at this point, an ongoing series is not the way to best tell them.

The first season ot two seem to have a strong following and were considered TMNT classics, but the series really felt like it started to go downhill in the worst way after the Triburnal stuff, maybe the creative team switched or something, I am not sure, but it felt "off" when compared to the earlier episodes. FF killed the whole thing in my opinion :sad:

[creativerealms]

The first season ot two seem to have a strong following and were considered TMNT classics, but the series really felt like it started to go downhill in the worst way after the Triburnal stuff, maybe the creative team switched or something, I am not sure, but it felt "off" when compared to the earlier episodes. FF killed the whole thing in my opinion :sad:

That would be after season four when the stuff your talking about started to happen.

Even if you ignore Fast Forward and BttS you still have 116 episodes.

[CyberCubed]

If the animation for FF/BTTS was the same as Seasons 1-5, and "It's Ninja Time" never existed, those seasons would have been almost the same as the previous. The actual stories are exactly the same in terms of writing, its only that they have to advertise the toys which is why we have to deal with this cyberworld concept and FF's future concept.

[Light Lucario]

Its true that it was a success in the fact that it accomplished what it set out to do, but at the same time it feels like the show could have still accomplished a bit more.

155 episodes and a DTV is a decent run, but I expected a full 200 episodes out of the series so it could match the original shows run. If it ends now, it'll only feel like it "half" accomplished it. Its a damn shame that we didn't make it to 200 episodes, and it originally looked like we might have been able to do so.

I wouldn't call 155 episodes and a DTV decent. That's a really great run. Other people, including myself, have mentioned how hard it is for most animated series nowadays to even reach a hundred episodes. A lot of series don't go much pass sixty or seventy, if they're lucky enough for that, and even fewer series actually get a DTV in the first place. Just because it doesn't have more episodes than the original series doesn't mean that it failed in any means. I personally choose quality over quanity any day. I think that you're just putting too much importance in episode count here. No offense.

There's also the whole idea that the series could possible continue someday, but I think I've coverd that possibility enough times already.


If the animation for FF/BTTS was the same as Seasons 1-5, and "It's Ninja Time" never existed, those seasons would have been almost the same as the previous. The actual stories are exactly the same in terms of writing, its only that they have to advertise the toys which is why we have to deal with this cyberworld concept and FF's future concept.

I actually didn't mind "It's Ninja Time" too much. I thought that it was kind of nice and all. I thought that the change in animation was weird in FF, but mainly because I didn't know that they were going to change it in the first place. I eventually got used to it though. I personally thought that the early FF episodes were kind of weak, but I thought that the later episodes improved quite nicely.

[CyberCubed]

I wouldn't call 155 episodes and a DTV decent. That's a really great run. Other people, including myself, have mentioned how hard it is for most animated series nowadays to even reach a hundred episodes. A lot of series don't go much pass sixty or seventy, if they're lucky enough for that, and even fewer series actually get a DTV in the first place.

Indeed, but the DCAU combined had somewhere around 450 episodes. You might say they're all different shows, but the same Batman is in all 4 of them, (his guest appearances in Superman), so it feels like all one show to me.

I obviously know the show was going to end eventually, but it did seem like we would have gotten nearly 200 episodes when it did end. I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but it feels like the show deserved a better sendoff.

It also feels odd for me that the show really does have 150+ episodes, yet it barely made an impact on anything. As others have said earlier in this thread, the series will most likely be forgotten and won't go down in history as anything special.

But I guess any show that Bruce Timm doesn't do is bound to be forgotten in this day and age.

[Blackstar]

But I guess any show that Bruce Timm doesn't do is bound to be forgotten in this day and age.

Spoken like a true fanboy. :p

But seriously, the universe didn't begin with Bruce Timm, and it won't end with him either.

[Gonzales]

Spoken like a true fanboy. :p

But seriously, the universe didn't begin with Bruce Timm, and it won't end with him either.
Maybe so, but he's still the one that most people will remember.

I'm not saying that's necessarily right. I'm saying that's how it is.

[Blackstar]

Maybe so, but he's still the one that most people will remember.

...Until the next successful popular director comes along, that is. I'm not discrediting them man's work or anything, mind you, but come on. Timm is good, but he's not a god.

[Light Lucario]

Indeed, but the DCAU combined had somewhere around 450 episodes. You might say they're all different shows, but the same Batman is in all 4 of them, (his guest appearances in Superman), so it feels like all one show to me.

I obviously know the show was going to end eventually, but it did seem like we would have gotten nearly 200 episodes when it did end. I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but it feels like the show deserved a better sendoff.

It also feels odd for me that the show really does have 150+ episodes, yet it barely made an impact on anything. As others have said earlier in this thread, the series will most likely be forgotten and won't go down in history as anything special.

But I guess any show that Bruce Timm doesn't do is bound to be forgotten in this day and age.

I personally don't feel too comfortable with labeling the DCAU as one whole series. I've always seen it as a combination of different series that just happened to take place in the same universe. I also don't really see how Batman appearing in all of the different series makes them one whole series either.

As I mentioned before, I think that you're putting too much importance on episode counts. Some excellent series don't have two hundred or even a hundred episodes. I still prefer quality over quanity.

While its true the the 2k3 series isn't a mega hit like the 80s series was for a while, I'm also not sure how people can easily write off that it won't be remembered. I don't think that the kids who like this series and are growing up watching it will forget it, much like the kids who grew up watching the 80s series remembered it. Personally, I think that whether or not a show will be remembered in the long run doesn't have to do with what people say on message boards, but more like how the people in the general public feel about it over the span of time. In other words, we don't really decide what is remembered or not, in a sense, but time does that.

As for your Bruce Timm comment, while I agree that the guy has done great work for the DCAU and with the DTVs, I don't think he's the only director for DC shows. And my previous statements about who and how shows are remembered by stands for the two recent Batman series as well.

[Blackstar]

As for your Bruce Timm comment, while I agree that the guy has done great work for the DCAU and with the DTVs, I don't think he's the only director for DC shows. And my previous statements about who and how shows are remembered by stands for the two recent Batman series as well.

Another good point. Too often, fans believe (or want to believe) that Bruce Timm was the one and only genius behind the DCAU, when in fact, there were many other talented people such as Paul Dini, Alan Burnett, James Tucker and Dwayne McDuffie who contributed to the DCAU as well. It was never just Bruce Timm, and he'd be the 1st to acknowedge that fact.

[CyberCubed]

Its a bit of a shame that Lloyd Goldfine generally isn't recognized, he was the supervising director and the overall story planner for the entire series and worked with Peter Laird on every episode.

Its because of his love of the comics that the show adapted so many of its arcs.

In any case will TMNT go through "Gargoyles" cult status in a few years? Gargoyles seemed to get more popular after the show ended, I wonder if TMNT will be the same way.

[THE 24 king]

its been on since 2003 til now what do u think