Why is B:TAS still talked about, and in comparison The Batman seems forgotten?

[CyberCubed]

Why is it that despite being over 15 years old, people still talk about B:TAS on a regular basis, whether it be the episodes, the characters, the plots, etc., yet in comparison The Batman which just ended a year ago, seems to have been all but forgotten?

What made B:TAS stand the test of time? This show is 17 years old and its still talked about consistently in the modern day, which is amazing when you think about it. Why aren't people talking about The Batman after it ended in the same way?

Why does it seem like The Batman has been forgotten about, almost as if the entire show never happened? I knew this was going to happen, but it seems to be happening quicker than expected.

Its almost as if The Batman doesn't have any legacy going for it, if you understand what I mean. Will people be talking about The Batman 15 years from now, I wonder? Or will it still be just B:TAS?

[Light Lucario]

Well, I think that the fact that you're making this thread proves that The Batman isn't forgotten. I guess that you're talking about how people talk about B:TAS on a daily basis on this site since I don't think a lot of people do that face to face. I think that there are some discussions here that still mention The Batman. Just because they don't come up as often as B:TAS here doesn't mean that it is forgotten. I don't see much discussion for Super Friends, but that doesn't mean that it is forgotten either.

I don't see how you can think that it would be forgotten within a year after it ended. It's pretty hard to say if it will be remembered or not like B:TAS since it hasn't been over nearly as long as B:TAS.

I also think that you're basing this on how often both shows are mentioned on forums like this one. I'm not really sure that's how shows are remembered or forgotten. Time does that and it's only been a year since The Batman ended.

[Wonderwall]

Didn't you already make a topic about this before?

[TheBearClaw]

I'd imagine the biggest reason would be because B:TAS appealed to a lot wider an audience. It had enough action to keep the kids happy, enough intrigue to keep adults happy and stayed true enough to the source material to satisfy the comic book community. The Batman was predominantly a kids show, made for kids and directed towards kids. B:TAS wasn't necessarily higher quality entertainment then The Batman, it just had more broad appeal.

[Gokou Ruri]

Why is it that despite being over 15 years old, people still talk about B:TAS on a regular basis, whether it be the episodes, the characters, the plots, etc., yet in comparison The Batman which just ended a year ago, seems to have been all but forgotten? Nostalgia. Same reason people talk about old CN/Nick/Disney shows despite the new ones being much more popular. Wait 10-20 years until the kids who watch todays shows grow up and talk about them on the internet.

There's also the factor of it being part of the DCAU which ended only a few years ago. It'll be talked about just being connected to that; so it's not exactly the same thing. If The Batman was part of a continuity than spanned over a decade then it would no doubt be mentioned frequently.

[Comic Book Boy]

I think BTAS had a definite substance and value to it that TB did not live up to.
BTAS, being the superior show, would undoubtably garner more discussion.
No big deal, the mythos has a place for all incarnations.

[creativerealms]

Well for one it just can't compare to batman TAS. The Batman was an averge (Some times good) action cartoon that really did nothing to stick out. It was just another show. Batman TAS was something great.

Anyways The Batman will be remembered sadly. it will be remembers as that inferior Batman cartoon that came after Batman TAS. It will be remembered as the unnesary Batman Cartoon. Sadly it has it's place in history just not a very big or good place.

[ichormosquito]

I wonder what the fate of Brave and the Bold will be. Its bold designs and fluid animation have made it a favorite of animation aficionados, and it goes out of its way to please the comic book community in ways The Batman never attempted. It probably provides more fan service than the DCAU.

The scripts are good, too - certainly better than The Batman's. The characters are lovingly written and rival what we see in JLU. Some episodes, like "Dawn of the Deadman" and "Journey to the Center of the Bat", are so deliciously surreal they are, in that respect, on a level of maturity surpassing JLU.

The Brave and the Bold's kitsch factor, while a turn-off for some, appeals to an older audience, as well. The only thing I see working against it is it only airs on Cartoon Network.

[CyberCubed]

The Brave and the Bold's kitsch factor, while a turn-off for some, appeals to an older audience, as well. The only thing I see working against it is it only airs on Cartoon Network.

Shows that strike out from the norm and do something different will always be remembered.

Its for the same reason nobody will forget the Teen Titans cartoon. Not only because it was the first animated show based on that team, but also because it was so different than any style seen in DC animation before.

I'm sure Brave and the Bold will be remembered for its style too.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Think of it this way: would this forum even exist if not for BTAS? Say what you will about the quality of both shows, but this forum specifically caters fans who enjoyed the Conroy Batman shows. If we went to a site inspired primarily by The Batman, BTAS might be the afterthought.

[Antiyonder]

Nostalgia. Same reason people talk about old CN/Nick/Disney shows despite the new ones being much more popular. Wait 10-20 years until the kids who watch todays shows grow up and talk about them on the internet.

Just because someone enjoys an older program doesn't mean they're nostalgic. Nostalgic is saying the the later programs suck.

[Gokou Ruri]

The scripts are good, too - certainly better than The Batman's. The characters are lovingly written and rival what we see in JLU. Some episodes, like "Dawn of the Deadman" and "Journey to the Center of the Bat", are so deliciously surreal they are, in that respect, on a level of maturity surpassing JLU.

The Brave and the Bold's kitsch factor, while a turn-off for some, appeals to an older audience, as well. The only thing I see working against it is it only airs on Cartoon Network. I find it odd B&TB isn't being bashed like TB, despite them sharing the same similarities that people hated TB for. The Batman at least it had somewhat of a plot in the final seasons. I guess everyone vented their hatred out on The Batman since it was the first Batman show since B:TAS.


Just because someone enjoys an older program doesn't mean they're nostalgic. Nostalgic is saying the the later programs suck. From what I've seen, most people do say The Batman was terrible. Though I was talking about "remember that old show we watched as kids?" type of nostalgia. Kids can't exactly do that with TB yet, while 20+ year olds on the internet can with B:TAS. Give it 10-20 years.

[mr.happy]

It's quite simple really; BTAS was to superhero cartoons what Star Wars was to sci-fi. It just raised the bar in so many ways, while The Batman lowered it. I'm pleased to see that the popularity of Batman - The Brave And The Bold is disproving all this nonsense about how The Batman was just being criticized because BTAS fans would not accept any other Batman.

[Antiyonder]

I find it odd B&TB isn't being bashed like TB, despite them sharing the same similarities that people hated TB for. The Batman at least it had somewhat of a plot in the final seasons. I guess everyone vented their hatred out on The Batman since it was the first Batman show since B:TAS.

Pretty much the reason. At the time, the idea that later animated versions would be done with our without Bruce Timm was a shock to some. By now, people either stick with the DCAU Batman or grow accustomed to the fact other people will do their own take on the character.

[Gokou Ruri]

It's quite simple really; BTAS was to superhero cartoons what Star Wars was to sci-fi. It just raised the bar in so many ways, while The Batman lowered it. I'm pleased to see that the popularity of Batman - The Brave And The Bold is disproving all this nonsense about how The Batman was just being criticized because BTAS fans would not accept any other Batman. I would say B:BATB will "lower the bar" a lot more than The Batman did. While B:TAS may have allowed for a darker, more serious superhero cartoons, BATB is basically taking us back to Superfriends era.

[mr.happy]

I would say B:BATB will "lower the bar" a lot more than The Batman did. While B:TAS may have allowed for a darker, more serious superhero cartoons, BATB is basically taking us back to Superfriends era.But the style and quality with which it's doing it is how it earns its stripes. That's not lowering the bar, if anything, it's extremely impressive how in this horrible Nolan/ThugMan age, they've managed to pull off a much lighter, more colorful Batman. And becoming a modern-day SuperFriends is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. That show was very popular and quite influential in its own right.

[Antiyonder]

I would say B:BATB will "lower the bar" a lot more than The Batman did. While B:TAS may have allowed for a darker, more serious superhero cartoons, BATB is basically taking us back to Superfriends era.

I'd say it's more like Superfriends done better as the stories can be pretty serious. Plus, the S&P actually allow for some fighting. Then there's the fact that each character has more personality whereas the Superfriends had the same mentality, but different power (Cause frankly if Gardner appeared on Superfriends, he'd be the Nice Guy so to speak). Not to mention that Aquaman is actually more useful than his SF counterpart.

[chdr]

I would say B:BATB will "lower the bar" a lot more than The Batman did. While B:TAS may have allowed for a darker, more serious superhero cartoons, BATB is basically taking us back to Superfriends era.If anything, TBATB has been taking just as many risks as any other decent DC show: just because it isn't as dark as the DCAU doesn't make inferior. TBATB is willing to show a fun and campy Batman at a time where the popular mantra "DARK BATMAN OR ELSE". Not only that, but each episode is filled with obscure DC heroes/villains that otherwise would never be animated or focused on.

TBATB will never be BTAS, nor is it trying to or should be. All it is is a fun, campy anthology show with Batman at the base. Essentially, it's like a more enjoyable Superfriends, but for well-versed DC fans. TBATB never focused on the story, and probably never will (even referenced in the Grodd episode where Plastic Man refers to all the ridiculous and nonsensical things happening in the episode at that point). The main focus of TBATB is building enjoyable characters, which it does very well.

I'll take cheesy, cheerful Aquaman over Totally Dark Aquaman Xtreme any day of the week.

[Joker1238]

I think The Batman just fail not because BTAS was better, or compare to, but the batman didnt relly seem like a batman cartoon. The designs, the action, acting, the plots, mostly the early plots with Joker turning people into playing cards, and than drowning them were just, well lets just say we were watching Adam West Batman again lol.

I never did like The Batman,

But I DO like the Brave and The Bold. That had amazing action, depended from show to show, a great to decent plot that made sense. And the anmation was better, than even BTAS, (Story wise no) And Batman, well LOOK like Batman.
I also like the ideal of Batman teaming up with a fellow superhero once a week.

Green Arrow was amazing, with Bats and Arrow egging each other on, and COMPETEING against each other vs crime.

(We both took down Morgan, so that makes us even, bank robbery, first one there gets a extra point.)

[thedanmachine]

1. Because many people tend to overlook the fact that about a third of BTAS is complete crap, with inconsistent animation, lame plots, and laughably bad villians.

2. Because it got blatantly toy commercialish.

3. Because it talked down to its audience and became too quippy.

4. Because Batman TBATB has already labeled itself as a "funky, retro, fun" Batman and people seem to want to accept that as a reason to ignore bad writing and some of the worst backgrounds Ive ever seen.

[Gokou Ruri]

But the style and quality with which it's doing it is how it earns its stripes. That's not lowering the bar, if anything, it's extremely impressive how in this horrible Nolan/ThugMan age, they've managed to pull off a much lighter, more colorful Batman. And becoming a modern-day SuperFriends is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. That show was very popular and quite influential in its own right. I suppose it boils down to if you prefer campy Batman or serious Batman.


If anything, TBATB has been taking just as many risks as any other decent DC show: just because it isn't as dark as the DCAU doesn't make inferior. I'm talking more about progressing the narrative of storytelling than darkness. It just so happens B:TAS's progression was paving a way for darker cartoons, especially ones about Batman. The Batman's progression was having some story arcs, I suppose. BATB may introduce other DC heroes and villains, but TB pretty much did that as well (more than B:TAS, anyway). BATB has no progression from what I've seen. It offers nothing new to the table that the previous Batman cartoons didn't. So in terms of "the bar" being raised or lowered, I would say it's been lowered since we've stopped progressing and seem to be moving backwards.

If nothing else, B:TAS will be remembered for it's progression of storytelling. Between the two, though, TB should be remembered more than BATB (for positive reasons, I mean), but only time will tell. I personally don't care for any of the shows, but I can appreciate B:TAS for what it did for animation.

[ichormosquito]

I find it odd B&TB isn't being bashed like TB, despite them sharing the same similarities that people hated TB for. The Batman at least it had somewhat of a plot in the final seasons. I guess everyone vented their hatred out on The Batman since it was the first Batman show since B:TAS.


It might be that B&TB is just a better show than The Batman, and that the people who love it now would have had the same opinion if it premiered instead of The Batman.

B&TB was the show I wished The Batman to be, back when all we had to go on was The Batman's stylish title card.

[sdp]

Well BTAS is classic and the best Batman cartoon and BatB is the current toon. BatB also appeals to older fans because of the golden age-esque of the show.

The batman is kind of in between, not as goofy but not as serious. Like a middle sibbling in a family kinda forgotten. Which is a shame too I think TB was a great show.

[ShadowStar]

1. Because many people tend to overlook the fact that about a third of BTAS is complete crap, with inconsistent animation, lame plots, and laughably bad villians.

2. Because it got blatantly toy commercialish.

3. Because it talked down to its audience and became too quippy.

4. Because Batman TBATB has already labeled itself as a "funky, retro, fun" Batman and people seem to want to accept that as a reason to ignore bad writing and some of the worst backgrounds Ive ever seen.

1. I didn't think that many episodes were bad because even a lot of the weaker ones had a fantastic style (ie. the approach to backgrounds, music, atmosphere, mood etc.) that eclipses anything else in any other cartoon IMO.

2. Don't really see how it was more like that than any other superhero show.

3. I'm sorry, but B:TAS almost never talked down to its audience. Moreso than in any other superhero show, it treated people like they had brains to burn. And quippy? How so?

4. Haven't seen enough of Batman: The Brave and the Bold to comment.

[chdr]

I'm talking more about progressing the narrative of storytelling than darkness. It just so happens B:TAS's progression was paving a way for darker cartoons, especially ones about Batman. The Batman's progression was having some story arcs, I suppose. BATB may introduce other DC heroes and villains, but TB pretty much did that as well (more than B:TAS, anyway). BATB has no progression from what I've seen. It offers nothing new to the table that the previous Batman cartoons didn't. So in terms of "the bar" being raised or lowered, I would say it's been lowered since we've stopped progressing and seem to be moving backwards.
Not every show has to blaze a trail. TBATB may be walking down the same trail that the original comics and Adam West series have done before, but what it does, it does well. TBATB doesn't have to have a narrative or over-arching plot, mainly because Batman fights various villains anyways. Unless all of them form an alliance or by chance all their crimes are connected, there's really not much room for narrative in the premise.

Besides, having a central narrative, story arcs, and recurring villains would defeat the entire point of TBATB: to showcase obscure or underappreciated DC characters every week, with Batman as a familiar anchor for kids.

[mr.happy]

1. Because many people tend to overlook the fact that about a third of BTAS is complete crap, with inconsistent animation, lame plots, and laughably bad villians.Irrelevant. The Beatles' legacy is not hampered by songs like "Wild Honey Pie" or "Mr. Moonlight".


2. Because it got blatantly toy commercialish.And produced one of the coolest superhero toy lines of all time.


I suppose it boils down to if you prefer campy Batman or serious Batman.No, I absolutely loved BTAS, but still enjoy TBATB. It's not exactly what anyone would consider quintessential Batman, but it's just a really well made show, and a wonderful anti-dote to Nolan's tedious, uninspired ThugMan.


I'm talking more about progressing the narrative of storytelling than darkness.I'd like to see some longer running arcs myself, and I'm sure we'll get that eventually. Regardless, I wouldn't hold the format against it, and it's obviously aimed at a much younger audience than BTAS or even JL/JLU, and the fact that it can be enjoyed by an older audience too is just a bonus.


If nothing else, B:TAS will be remembered for it's progression of storytelling. Between the two, though, TB should be remembered more than BATB (for positive reasons, I mean), but only time will tell. I personally don't care for any of the shows, but I can appreciate B:TAS for what it did for animation.You're focusing too much on arc-based storytelling. That will never in itself be a barometer for quality. That's like saying The Incredibles is a worse movie for not being a LOTR style trilogy.

[creativerealms]

While Batman the brave and the bold is campy, is corny and it does feel like the Superfriends it knows when to be serous knows when to be dark knows when to push the limits. It's basicly a silver game DC cartoon done right. One that actually knows how to balance the camp so it does not overwealm the show like was the problem with the Super Friends.

Nolen Batman is as much "Thugman" as Burton batman is "Bat-Punisher" nether are true the the haters claim they are.

[ichormosquito]

And why should The Batman be remembered for arc based storytelling when other American cartoons, like Spiderman or Gargoyles, already blazed that trail and did a better job of it?

The greatest legacy of The Batman, to my mind, will be the Bat-embargo.

[Raidon Makoto]

It probably provides more fan service than the DCAU.
Go rewatch all of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, please.

The Batman, overall, was just kind of bad. What I really disliked about it, though, was the Bat-Embargo, which, IMO, hurt JLU somewhat. While Bruce Timm and Paul Dini were masterful at introducing new, non-Bat villians, I find it hard to believe that The Joker wouldn't have jumped at the chance to join the Legion of Doom.

Brave and the Bold is also not going to be remembered. I can't watch the Adam West Batman, it is just WAY too campy. This is exactly the same. I prefer a dynamic Batman as opposed to the static, campy Batman. That, and the animation makes me cringe.

[Antiyonder]

I prefer a dynamic Batman as opposed to the static, campy Batman.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying both versions of Batman you know.

[thedanmachine]

1. I didn't think that many episodes were bad because even a lot of the weaker ones had a fantastic style (ie. the approach to backgrounds, music, atmosphere, mood etc.) that eclipses anything else in any other cartoon IMO.

2. Don't really see how it was more like that than any other superhero show.

3. I'm sorry, but B:TAS almost never talked down to its audience. Moreso than in any other superhero show, it treated people like they had brains to burn. And quippy? How so?

4. Haven't seen enough of Batman: The Brave and the Bold to comment.

Numbers 2 and 3 were directed at The Batman and not BTAS if that clears anything up.

[M.O.D.O.K.]

The Batman, overall, was just kind of bad. What I really disliked about it, though, was the Bat-Embargo, which, IMO, hurt JLU somewhat. While Bruce Timm and Paul Dini were masterful at introducing new, non-Bat villians, I find it hard to believe that The Joker wouldn't have jumped at the chance to join the Legion of Doom.

I've always found, and still do, find the Bat-Embargo complaint to be unvalid and baseless. We still got an awesome show out of JLU, so does it REALLY matter? Why should the crew of The Batman be giving up most of Batman's rogues gallery, just to fullfill fanboy fantasies?

Besides, Warner Bros.'s moronic thinking is to truly blame. Otherwise, the Nolan movies are as much to blame for the embargo.


That, and the animation makes me cringe.

You mean the ART DIRECTION, not the animation itself. The animation itself is fine.

[creativerealms]

Go rewatch all of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, please.

The Batman, overall, was just kind of bad. What I really disliked about it, though, was the Bat-Embargo, which, IMO, hurt JLU somewhat. While Bruce Timm and Paul Dini were masterful at introducing new, non-Bat villians, I find it hard to believe that The Joker wouldn't have jumped at the chance to join the Legion of Doom.

Brave and the Bold is also not going to be remembered. I can't watch the Adam West Batman, it is just WAY too campy. This is exactly the same. I prefer a dynamic Batman as opposed to the static, campy Batman. That, and the animation makes me cringe.

So super smooth fluid animation makes you cringe? Ah your an anime fan your use to choppy animation. That explains it.

Sorry for the low blow but I don't like this guy.

[ichormosquito]

Go rewatch all of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, please.

OK, done. Where's Kamandi? Or legacy characters, like Dan Garrett and Ted Kord? By "fan service", I refer to all the idiosyncratic hoops the BatB creative team jumps through to give a wink to comic book fans. Timm and co. did that, too; but they were constrained by their more realistic universe and a more conventional storytelling approach.

In addition, the nature of Justice League and, to a lesser extent, JLU, made it harder to explore the continuities of individual characters. Characters who saw a lot of development, like Flash or Question, did so on Timm and co.'s terms, within the framework of the team. Their comic book histories were ignored or rarely referenced. I love the DCAU, but one of my beefs about Justice League and JLU is that characters don't have histories with each other, and they don't have origins. So many of the JLU heroes are window dressing.

On the other hand, in part because of the variety-show nature of BatB, the writers of that show rely on comic book continuity as a kind of character development short-hand. Characters know each other and have histories - they don't pop out of no where. In this way, the characters on BatB better reflect the legendary aspect of DC Comics. I love the DCAU, but it's a bit too "Marvel" for my liking.

[mr.happy]

Brave and the Bold is also not going to be remembered. I can't watch the Adam West Batman, it is just WAY too campy. This is exactly the same.If you're saying the Adam West Batman wasn't popular or remembered either, you couldn't be more wrong. Say what you will about its silliness, but it's a certified TV classic. It's still too early to say where BatB will end up in terms of TV legacy, but it's off to a great start.


I prefer a dynamic Batman as opposed to the static, campy Batman. That, and the animation makes me cringe.The animation is actually top notch. This is probably some of the most dynamic Batman has ever been.

[Raidon Makoto]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying both versions of Batman you know.
Except I don't enjoy Brave and the Bold. I want my Batmen interesting, not the static campy character that the B&B Batman is.

You mean the ART DIRECTION, not the animation itself. The animation itself is fine.
Yeah, that's what I mean. Got my animation terminology mixed up.

So super smooth fluid animation makes you cringe? Ah your an anime fan your use to choppy animation. That explains it.
See above.


OK, done. Where's Kamandi? Or legacy characters, like Dan Garrett and Ted Kord? By "fan service", I refer to all the idiosyncratic hoops the BatB creative team jumps through to give a wink to comic book fans. Timm and co. did that, too; but they were constrained by their more realistic universe and a more conventional storytelling approach.
Where's Question? Where's the Joker? Or how about sidekicks, where's Speedy or Supergirl?

Realism ftw, btw.


In addition, the nature of Justice League and, to a lesser extent, JLU, made it harder to explore the continuities of individual characters. Characters who saw a lot of development, like Flash or Question, did so on Timm and co.'s terms, within the framework of the team. Their comic book histories were ignored or rarely referenced. I love the DCAU, but one of my beefs about Justice League and JLU is that characters don't have histories with each other, and they don't have origins. So many of the JLU heroes are window dressing.
I had a general idea of where everyone came from, but it was more about kicking ass and fanservice. Random campy team-ups cannot beat an army of heroes.


On the other hand, in part because of the variety-show nature of BatB, the writers of that show rely on comic book continuity as a kind of character development short-hand. Characters know each other and have histories - they don't pop out of no where. In this way, the characters on BatB better reflect the legendary aspect of DC Comics. I love the DCAU, but it's a bit too "Marvel" for my liking.
Most of the heroes in JLU also already know each other. And, honestly, I didn't mind every episode of JLU not being an origin story.


If you're saying the Adam West Batman wasn't popular or remembered either, you couldn't be more wrong. Say what you will about its silliness, but it's a certified TV classic. It's still too early to say where BatB will end up in terms of TV legacy, but it's off to a great start.

The animation is actually top notch. This is probably some of the most dynamic Batman has ever been.
I never said that Adam West wasn't remembered, I just said that its really hard for me to watch old Adam West Batman episodes.

And again, see above. I got my animation terms mixed up. :P

[Blackstar]

Where's Question? Where's the Joker? Or how about sidekicks, where's Speedy or Supergirl?

If you mean on The Brave and the Bold, Speedy did appear in "Dawn of the Deadman", and Supergirl was never a sidekick.

As for the Joker, B&tB is about the super hero team-ups, not about resurrecting Batman's rogues gallery for the umpteenth time.

And just because Bats hasn't teamed up with The Question yet, that doesn't mean that he never will. Give it some time.

[Gokou Ruri]

TBATB doesn't have to have a narrative or over-arching plot, mainly because Batman fights various villains anyways. Unless all of them form an alliance or by chance all their crimes are connected, there's really not much room for narrative in the premise. Correction: it hasn't happened because no one has bothered to attempted it. It can be done quite easily, the problem is very few writers want to do so for the same reason the comics don't want to; finite endings are bad and it wouldn't allow them to bring back the same villains time after time again. Anything can be done, you just have to find people willing to do so.


Besides, having a central narrative, story arcs, and recurring villains would defeat the entire point of TBATB: to showcase obscure or underappreciated DC characters every week, with Batman as a familiar anchor for kids. Then could you really consider it a Batman show if the appeal lies on everyone but Batman? It seems people watch it for the cameos rather than the actual titular character.


You're focusing too much on arc-based storytelling. That will never in itself be a barometer for quality. That's like saying The Incredibles is a worse movie for not being a LOTR style trilogy. Movies are a different thing entirely (and for the record I would rate Incredibles better because it wasn't a copy of a book series), but in terms of 'remembrance', that's the reason I'd say TB deserves it more than BATB. My main point is TB offered something new, which just so happened to be story arcs, BATB doesn't offer anything new (which doesn't have to be arcs). Some people would say cameos, but that has nothing to do with Batman himself, and previous shows already had tons of cameos.


And why should The Batman be remembered for arc based storytelling when other American cartoons, like Spiderman or Gargoyles, already blazed that trail and did a better job of it?

Because the thread is about Batman shows, not other shows. If I were to include other shows then I would definately pick other shows (not those two, though). But in terms of Batman evolution, TB is about the best we can get in that department.


The greatest legacy of The Batman, to my mind, will be the Bat-embargo. It's unfortunate if people will hate the show for reasons that have nothing to do with the show itself.

[mr.happy]

My main point is TB offered something new, which just so happened to be story arcs, BATB doesn't offer anything new (which doesn't have to be arcs).If you don't think it offers something new, you're probably not looking hard enough.


It's unfortunate if people will hate the show for reasons that have nothing to do with the show itself.I can only speak for myself, but I dislike it for the show itself. Everything from writing and art to voice casting, music, etc, etc, it was just a very mediocre show.

[Antiyonder]

Correction: it hasn't happened because no one has bothered to attempted it. It can be done quite easily, the problem is very few writers want to do so for the same reason the comics don't want to; finite endings are bad and it wouldn't allow them to bring back the same villains time after time again. Anything can be done, you just have to find people willing to do so.

Believe me, I enjoy storyarcs as much as the next animation fan, but a show doesn't always have to have them to be definitively good.

If the show is ultimately bad it's not because of the lack of story arc, but because it's unable to deliver on the fun and humor stories.


Then could you really consider it a Batman show if the appeal lies on everyone but Batman? It seems people watch it for the cameos rather than the actual titular character.

Batman presence while overexposing for the character is necessary. DC is convince that heroes other than Superman and Batman can't carry their own show. Only reason why we got Legion Of Super Heroes was due to Superman's presence. We got Teen Titans because the Boy Wonder was in the lead.

Batman was likely chosen to be the title character due to TDK outdoing SR.


BATB doesn't offer anything new (which doesn't have to be arcs). Some people would say cameos, but that has nothing to do with Batman himself, and previous shows already had tons of cameos.

It introduces some characters which have never seen full animated exposure before (Blue Beetle, Katana and Black Lightning. Two of which had been off limits when JLU was produced.).

[Gokou Ruri]

If you don't think it offers something new, you're probably not looking hard enough. Can you name some examples then?


Believe me, I enjoy storyarcs as much as the next animation fan, but a show doesn't always have to have them to be definitively good.

If the show is ultimately bad it's not because of the lack of story arc, but because it's unable to deliver on the fun and humor stories. Maybe it's just because I dislike camp/comedy shows


Batman presence while overexposing for the character is necessary. DC is convince that heroes other than Superman and Batman can't carry their own show. Only reason why we got Legion Of Super Heroes was due to Superman's presence. We got Teen Titans because the Boy Wonder was in the lead.

Batman was likely chosen to be the title character due to TDK outdoing SR. That's unfortunate, executives should take more risks rather than relying on the same thing time and time again. They'll never know unless they try.


It introduces some characters which have never seen full animated exposure before (Blue Beetle, Katana and Black Lightning. Two of which had been off limits when JLU was produced.). I'm referring to writing techniques, and so forth. Specific characters don't make it different from all the previous shows which also relied on the gimmick of having cameo characters every other week. (The Batman more or less derived into that in the later episodes)

[DCU Bat]

Why is it that despite being over 15 years old, people still talk about B:TAS on a regular basis, whether it be the episodes, the characters, the plots, etc., yet in comparison The Batman which just ended a year ago, seems to have been all but forgotten?

I'm not going the join in the BTAS vs. TB vs. BBATB 'debate' which this topic has veered into but instead answer your question.

Simply put, this forum has more DCAU fanboys than the TB ones. Yeah, BTAS left a big legacy which spun into it's own universe of events like STAS, TNBA, BB, JL and JLU (anybody else getting sick of the acronymes?) so with a big universe like that, it was nostalgic and kind of current at the same.

After JLU ended and Bruce Timm moved on to the DC DVD series, The fans could only fill the void but starting "What if?", "Why did?" and "Would'nt it be cool?" threads to continue dicussing it. Notice a lack of Teen Titans topics? That's cause majority of them is over at Titanstower.com, similarly I think Legionsofgotham.org actively dicuss TB related stuff.

Only sad thing is that I have't found any fan fourm of Legion of Superheroes, But then again the show only lasted two seasons.

[Spideyzilla]

BTAS is well on it's way (if not already) to becoming a classic. The Batman was cancelled last year. Plus, with the exception of the second, fourth, and fifth seasons, the quality was not high, although when TB was at it's best in season four, it was easily comparable to BTAS

[JohanLiebert]

As far as action-comedy shows are concerned, I feel as though Teen Titans will be remembered the most. It will be noted for its serious episodes such as Birthmark and its comedy episodes such as Episode 257-494. I haven't seen Brave and the Bold yet, but what I've heard leads me to believe that it will never have anything as serious as Haunted or even Apprentice.

[Wolf Boy2]

Huh, why has no one given the cliche sarcasm:

BECUZ TEH BATMAN WAAS TEH SUCK!!!:D

[thanos28542]

Sorry, I could never accept Jackie Chan as Bats.

[ShadowStar]

Numbers 2 and 3 were directed at The Batman and not BTAS if that clears anything up.

Oh, OK.


As for the Joker, B&tB is about the super hero team-ups, not about resurrecting Batman's rogues gallery for the umpteenth time.

In the background during the main theme for Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Joker's name appears on one of the walls, indicating that he'll almost certainly be putting in an appearance. And with Catwoman confirmed to appear in the second half of season 1, it wouldn't surprise me if we see him too.

[Collie]

Huh, why has no one given the cliche sarcasm:

BECUZ TEH BATMAN WAAS TEH SUCK!!!:D

Indeed. Which is worse, to be forgotten because you were that horrid (The Batman) or to be remembered because you were THAT horrid (Teen Titans)?

[dmxx116]

If anything, TBATB has been taking just as many risks as any other decent DC show: just because it isn't as dark as the DCAU doesn't make inferior. TBATB is willing to show a fun and campy Batman at a time where the popular mantra "DARK BATMAN OR ELSE". Not only that, but each episode is filled with obscure DC heroes/villains that otherwise would never be animated or focused on.

TBATB will never be BTAS, nor is it trying to or should be. All it is is a fun, campy anthology show with Batman at the base. Essentially, it's like a more enjoyable Superfriends, but for well-versed DC fans. TBATB never focused on the story, and probably never will (even referenced in the Grodd episode where Plastic Man refers to all the ridiculous and nonsensical things happening in the episode at that point). The main focus of TBATB is building enjoyable characters, which it does very well.

I'll take cheesy, cheerful Aquaman over Totally Dark Aquaman Xtreme any day of the week.No I'll take my Aquaman to be a badass anytime over that retard Aquaman who just make sick in the way he act and no Supervillains would be afraid of him.

[Antiyonder]

Maybe it's just because I dislike camp/comedy shows

Fair enough. It just seems like many people automatically dislike shows such as BTBATB because it's popular for drama fans to dislike comedy/camp.

[Blackstar]

No I'll take my Aquaman to be a badass anytime over that retard Aquaman who just make sick in the way he act and no Supervillains would be afraid of him.

Every super hero doesn't have to be dark, brooding and angry. It would be incredibly boring if all supers were like DCAU Batman. Happy jovial Aquaman is just fine by me.

[chdr]

No I'll take my Aquaman to be a badass anytime over that retard Aquaman who just make sick in the way he act and no Supervillains would be afraid of him.Considering how lame Aquaman's power is compared to all the other superheroes, I wouldn't be afraid of him either way.

Besides, I always thought that Dark Serious Aquaman Xtreme was really, really boring.

[Mad Mod 49]

To the question at hand, I guess it's just because the series was so damn important. Simple as that. I mean, TNBA isn't talked about all that much either despite being in the same continuity as BTAS, so it's not like this is unique to The Batman (then again, it may just be because TNBA had "Critters" that it's avoided being talked about...)

And why do I get the impression that alot of "The Batman" haters here didn't actually watch the show past it's first season? Most of the complaints seem to reflect on that season solely.

Oh, and as for all the crap that "The Batman" won't be remembered well...come off it. The show was a success, with five seasons and a number of awards won, because it did well with the target audience (younger kids) and THEY will be the ones doing most of the remembering of the show once they grow old enough to populate message boards like this. Put in that perspective, I doubt it will be thought of badly by anyone except for the usual morons who just can't move on from B:TAS or the DCAU in general (When even Alan Burnett, one of the creators of B:TAS, praises The Batman and the fanboys still dislike it, you know there's a problem with them.)

[Wonderwall]

I sometimes wonder how The Batman will be remembered by the target audience once they grow up to be as old as some of us who had BTAS when we were younger. Should be interesting.

[ichormosquito]

I sometimes wonder how The Batman will be remembered by the target audience once they grow up to be as old as some of us who had BTAS when we were younger.

It won't be. Many kid shows are forgotten, and The Batman is eminently forgettable. If kids remember it at all, they'll jumble it together with BTAS or TBATB, shows stronger stories and bolder art. Also: The Batman wasn't rerun nearly as much as BTAS. The world of network TV was completely different in the 90s.

[Antiyonder]

It won't be. Many kid shows are forgotten, and The Batman is eminently forgettable. If kids remember it at all, they'll jumble it together with BTAS or TBATB, shows stronger stories and bolder art. Also: The Batman didn't play in syndication nearly as much as BTAS. The world of network TV was completely different in the 90s.

There are plenty of cartoons from the 60s up to the 80s fondly remembered regardless if they are good or bad. But I do agree that the show won't be remembered as much due to lack of reruns on basic cable.

[CyberCubed]

I think he means The Batman wasn't rerun as much.

As far as I remember, there was no KidsWb weekday rerun slot once The Batman started and it only aired on CN for a little while.

[creativerealms]

Boomerang only airing the first two seasons does not help, at all. Yeah not everyone has Boomerang but still they should air the Rest of The Batman.

[Ed Liu]

I can't speak for anybody else but myself, but I think the reason why this happened is because Batman the Animated Series was radically different from anything else that had ever been done in TV action cartoons for years. It was absolutely nothing like the Hanna-Barbera superhero properties, the Filmation shows, or the Marvel cartoons like Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. The closest thing I can think of to it before was maybe Jonny Quest, and then you'd have to run all the way back to the Fleischer Superman cartoons. The first impression I had of BTAS was "On Leather Wings" and "Heart of Ice," which were dark, stylish, mature, and two of the best episodes the show ever did. First impressions matter, and those 2 episodes (and even "The Cat and the Claw") made quite an impression. We've gotten a lot of excellent action-oriented animated series since then, but BTAS defined how to do them for an entire generation of people who make and watch cartoons, and nearly every action-animation show that came afterwards, including The Batman, was built on the foundation of what BTAS did.

In contrast, The Batman struck me as a fair action cartoon that didn't do enough to distinguish itself from BTAS, other than to insult my intelligence with toy ads thinly disguised as cartoon entertainment. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and I was actively angered by the idiotic emphasis on the Batwave in the early episodes of the show. It felt like BTAS-lite, and that wasn't something that interested me. Later episodes seemed better, and I really liked the one with Mr. Freeze in the future, but I think expecting people to stick around for 2-3 seasons for the show to get good is unreasonable.

For the third contrast, Batman: The Brave and the Bold has got loads of visual style that I love, and while the first episode was a little off, I think they found their footing incredibly fast. I appreciate the fact that they're willing to go way out there and do crazy, off-the-wall stuff. I think it's hilarious. I think the rework of Aquaman worked a whole lot better than something like Rastafarian Joker, who was really the same character in different clothing in the end. It's NEW. I don't know that it'll achieve the same iconic status that BTAS has, but I think it will have more staying power.

I guess the biggest difference to me is that BTAS and B&tB feel like shows that really turned on the producers and the crew. They were/are making the show for themselves. The Batman always felt like a corporate mandate, and while it might have turned out OK in the end and I'm sure the people who made on it were working hard, I never picked up the same degree of passion or intensity to it.

[ichormosquito]

The Batman always felt like a corporate mandate, and while it might have turned out OK in the end and I'm sure the people who made on it were working hard, I never picked up the same degree of passion or intensity to it.

We have a winner.

[desi]

Before anyone forgets, quality of the three Batman shows have a lot to do with WB, DC and CN. They have a lot to do with what happens in the show. You can be the best director or writer in the industry, but the limitations set by the guys in suits can really bring you down. BTAS was made at the time when WB was still new at animation and they were easier to take advantage of. Bruce Timm obviously pushed them quite a bit. Alot of times, you need to be a guy who can talk people into letting you break some rules and not everyone has the ability to do that. Bruce seems like that guy. It always seem to me that rules for Saturday morning shows never really applied to Bruce. He often broke 'em or bended 'em.

These days, these companies want more than good ratings, they want to sell merchandise. Which results in 22 minutes comercials for toys. The latest example is the new Batman show.

[Mad Mod 49]

but I think expecting people to stick around for 2-3 seasons for the show to get good is unreasonable.

By that logic, this rules out a good deal many decent shows. Another justification to my theory that the Batman bashers here haven't actually watched much of the show beyond the first season and don't know what the hell they're talking about.


They were/are making the show for themselves. The Batman always felt like a corporate mandate, and while it might have turned out OK in the end and I'm sure the people who made on it were working hard, I never picked up the same degree of passion or intensity to it.

Read any interview with "The Batman" crew on the WF site and you'll find you're dead wrong.


It won't be. Many kid shows are forgotten, and The Batman is eminently forgettable. If kids remember it at all, they'll jumble it together with BTAS or TBATB, shows stronger stories and bolder art.

Said with certainty by someone who is not part of said target audience. Please, let the kids who watched "The Batman" grow up with it before you shoot your mouth off about how forgotten it will be (and frankly, if "Superfriends" is remembered after all these years, then "The Batman" will be, whether you like it or not.)



We have a winner.


But it ain't you. :p

[ichormosquito]

Said with certainty by someone who is not part of said target audience. Please, let the kids who watched "The Batman" grow up with it before you shoot your mouth off about how forgotten it will be (and frankly, if "Superfriends" is remembered after all these years, then "The Batman" will be, whether you like it or not.)

We'll see, I suppose. Still, when Superfriends aired, Saturday morning cartoons were an entrenched institution. Superfriends played in reruns more than The Batman, and the show lasted longer. It's also endearingly cheesy. The Batman's just bland.

But I'm done picking on The Batman. I realize I'm not the target audience, I respect the creators, and I adore the non-The Batman art stylings of Jeff Matsuda. :D

[Ed Liu]

By that logic, this rules out a good deal many decent shows. Another justification to my theory that the Batman bashers here haven't actually watched much of the show beyond the first season and don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Please read what I wrote. I did watch later episodes of the show and I thought some of them were quite good. But I don't know of very many shows that took 26-39 episodes to get good. If you can't at least keep my attention in 2 or 3, I am not going to stick around, and the first episodes of The Batman left me ambivalent, at best, and actively angry at worst.


Read any interview with "The Batman" crew on the WF site and you'll find you're dead wrong.

Please read what I wrote. I don't doubt that the people who worked on The Batman worked hard on the show and I don't doubt that they cared deeply about what they were doing. I just didn't feel it. I certainly don't think anybody is (or should be) proud of making Alfred tell Bruce Wayne, "Don't leave the Batcave without your Batwave." I know that they dropped that kind of thing later in the series, but that was way too little way too late.


(and frankly, if "Superfriends" is remembered after all these years, then "The Batman" will be, whether you like it or not.)

Well, Superfriends is remembered for being so incredibly lame that it's funny, and for being the iconic show that people love as kids but come to realize that it's stunningly awful when they get older. I don't think The Batman hits that depth of suck, but I also don't think it comes close to the heights of BTAS.

[Wolf Boy2]

In response to someone's statement that TNBA isn't discussed much either, I think that is largely because TNBA is considered a part of BTAS.

As for The Batman .... it was just meh. I'm gonna even go as far as to criticize the supposedly untouchable 4th season. The only real standout moments in season 4 were retreads of stuff that BTAS and the comics had already covered. Sure, Paul Dini gave us a good Harley outing in The Batman. But he created Harley for BTAS, and BTAS has all of her most memorable moments.

If The Batman had premeired in 1992, it would probably be the one we all remember. However, it would still be eclipsed by the superior BTAS, not unlike how Spectacular Spider-Man has eclipsed the 90s Spider-Man. TB didn't lower the quality bar a whole lot, but it SURE didn't raise it any.

I doubt TB will be remembered much more than the 90s Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Spider-Man or even X-Men are. I know these shows had fans, but they weren't the landmark that BTAS was. BTAS revolutionized how people even drew cartoon characters. The other day, I was watching Liberty's Kids, and I was struck by how drastically DIC had changed their designs, from the lumpy designs of Cops 'n Crooks to a streamlined, BTAS-inspired look.

The Marvel shows in the 90s were still following the old needless realism of the 80s, looking very similar to GI Joe and Jem designs. They didn't change anything. Likewise, TB had slick animation and streamlined designs, but it was only applying tricks learned and perfected on BTAS. TB, like the merely decent Marvel shows before it, followed the current trends and never really brought anything new to the table.

BTAS practically built the damn table.

[Mad Mod 49]

In response to someone's statement that TNBA isn't discussed much either, I think that is largely because TNBA is considered a part of BTAS.


Which is incorrect. Same continuity, different show.


But I don't know of very many shows that took 26-39 episodes to get good.

Me neither, and The Batman isn't one of them (it took 13 episodes to get good.)


If you can't at least keep my attention in 2 or 3, I am not going to stick around

Again, that means you've most likely missed out on several decent shows. Your loss. :p


I certainly don't think anybody is (or should be) proud of making Alfred tell Bruce Wayne, "Don't leave the Batcave without your Batwave." I know that they dropped that kind of thing later in the series, but that was way too little way too late.

After only one season is too little too late? You seem to be trying to convince me you're not dwelling on the first season when criticizing the show, but comments like this only reinforce the notion. The batwave line was in the first damn episode for crying out loud, it's not a very good basis for argument toward the whole show.



I don't think The Batman hits that depth of suck, but I also don't think it comes close to the heights of BTAS.


I dont' think anyone does think it comes close to BTAS' height. I sure don't. What I'm tired of is people dismissing or bashing the show because it's not on BTAS' level (or because it's not even in the DCAU continuity.) Few if any of the dismissers here, for instance, seem to comment on the show on it's own merits, only compared to BTAS (case in point: Wolf Boy 2.) B:TB&TB escapes this because it's not really a Batman show at all; it's more a less a DC crossover-of-the-week show with Batman as the star. With The Batman, people's judgements are blinded by BTAS, and personally, I find it pretty pathetic.

Or to quote the WF review of the second season finale:



This show has really elevated itself. It's a fun rendition of Batman that features some of the best animation and CGI work on Saturday morning cartoons. It's sad to think that most fans of the older DC cartoons will hate it because they think this show is taking their place (which it isn't). There is some good stuff here, but those fans will be too stubborn to see anything but the flaws. It's aggravating and pathetic, but mostly sad.

[Wolf Boy2]

Which is incorrect. Same continuity, different show.
I said "considered." It's even sold on DVD as volume four of the same series. Technically it's "different", but in the same manner as a bad final season. Not a glaring difference like with TB.

Kind of like the relationship of Beast Wars to the original Transformers as opposed to that of Transformers Animated to the original Transformers.


I dont' think anyone does think it comes close to BTAS' height. I sure don't. What I'm tired of is people dismissing or bashing the show because it's not on BTAS' level (or because it's not even in the DCAU continuity.) Few if any of the dismissers here, for instance, seem to comment on the show on it's own merits, only compared to BTAS (case in point: Wolf Boy 2.)
Well, in fairness, the whole thread is about comparing BTAS and TB to figure out why BTAS is better remembered. All I did was state a reason, which boils down to "BTAS was first and most revolutionary."



B:TB&TB escapes this because it's not really a Batman show at all; it's more a less a DC crossover-of-the-week show with Batman as the star. With The Batman, people's judgements are blinded by BTAS, and personally, I find it pretty pathetic.

Actually, I ignored B:TB&TB because I've never seen it.

And in all fairness: BTAS had a worse beginning than TB and a lot worse stinker e

[Alph]

Which is incorrect. Same continuity, different show.



Does it matter? When people talk about BTAS or TNBA, they are usually talking about the characters and events in those shows. In a discussion about Batman or Mr. Freeze or Twoface, the show doesn't matter so much as the continuity.

Now, if it's a thread about writing quality or art design, then yeah, it matters that they're different shows. But the large majority of the time, the threads are about characters and events, in which case the distinction between BTAS and TNBA is irrelevant .

[Optimus81]

Simply put, Batman: The Animated Series was a masterpiece, one of the greatest action animation shows ever. The Batman was not.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

I just want to say it again. Batman: The Animated Series is one of my all time favorite shows. A milestone in animated storytelling. But I also love The Batman. It's underrated and underappreciated. To compare is not fair, but I love them both for different reasons.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

To compare is not fair,

I choose to differ. Refusing to compare the two is pretty much ignoring the elephant in the room. While it's fair to point out the two shows debuted more than a decade apart, they still feature the exact same character, and cater to the same demographics, airing at similar time slots of their respective original runs. If you can't compare these two shows, what two shows can you compare?

The Batman didn't captivate me enough to catch original airings, but I, too, get tired of the attitude that the DCAU is the only appropriate way to present these characters.

[Antiyonder]

I choose to differ. Refusing to compare the two is pretty much ignoring the elephant in the room. While it's fair to point out the two shows debuted more than a decade apart, they still feature the exact same character, and cater to the same demographics, airing at similar time slots of their respective original runs. If you can't compare these two shows, what two shows can you compare?

You find a show equal to The Batman's writing style to compare to.

But comparisons aside, what determines the quality of a show isn't whether it surpasses Shakespeare (or in this case Bruce Timm), but whether it delivers on it's promise.

Take Batman The Brave And The Bold. While viewers are more willing to try this show, there are still some people who hate it for simply not being Batman The Animated Series. To my understanding, the purpose of the show is to spotlight other characters and provide fun & humor, not to surpasses BTAS. And so far it's doing well in that department.

[CyberCubed]

Take Batman The Brave And The Bold. While viewers are more willing to try this show, there are still some people who hate it for simply not being Batman The Animated Series. To my understanding, the purpose of the show is to spotlight other characters and provide fun & humor, not to surpasses BTAS. And so far it's doing well in that department.

To be fair some people don't like Brave and the Bold just because they don't like the tone of the show or the style, not because its not like B:TAS.

[Mad Mod 49]

Does it matter? When people talk about BTAS or TNBA, they are usually talking about the characters and events in those shows. In a discussion about Batman or Mr. Freeze or Twoface, the show doesn't matter so much as the continuity.


*Twitch* Please, don't reference TNBA and Mr. Freeze in the same paragraph (stinkin' head in a jar concept...:p )



And in all fairness: BTAS had a worse beginning than TB


Er, which episode are you talking about? The actual first episode "On Leather Wings" or the first-aired episode "The Cat and the Claw"? If it's the former, I can't agree, but if it's the latter, then yeah.



Simply put, Batman: The Animated Series was a masterpiece, one of the greatest action animation shows ever. The Batman was not.


This is probably one of the best responses I've seen yet. What I hate is bashing of The Batman because it's not BTAS. Stating the fact "BTAS is more remembered because it was a superior show to The Batman" WITHOUT bashing The Batman, like this response does...that's what we need more of. ;)



I just want to say it again. Batman: The Animated Series is one of my all time favorite shows. A milestone in animated storytelling. But I also love The Batman. It's underrated and underappreciated. To compare is not fair, but I love them both for different reasons.


Again, exactly. The Batman's no masterpiece like BTAS was, but that doesn't mean one can't enjoy it as well, especially seeing as it was one of the better action shows out there for the most part (aside from Season 1 and around half of Season 5.) And again, while it's justifiably never going to be remembered the way BTAS is, the millions of kids out there who were introduced to Batman through it will likely remember it fondly (just like the Adam West show is looked upon fondly for introducing many to Batman...heck, that's the entire moral of BTAS "Gray Ghost" episode.)



To be fair some people don't like Brave and the Bold just because they don't like the tone of the show or the style, not because its not like B:TAS.


I like it just fine; I just can't really consider it a "Batman show" so much as I can a "DC show": Batman is mainly the star in order to give kids a familiar hero, it's the lesser known ones that steal the show (John DiMaggio's Aquaman FTW!)

[TheTerror]

As a reply to the original post, I feel Batman TAS is still reguarded as the premier Batman cartoon because of it's dark and creepy feel and because it achieved so much and even got an Emmy Award if I'm not mistaken, but all in all it's a great series and an icon in superhero animation. There was just "something" about it that gave the series a great feel and flow to it, maybe it was the writing or maybe it was the animation, either way it was a classic.

The Batman was cool, but it didn't pack the punch that TAS did, it was just missing that certain "something".

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

As a reply to the original post, I feel Batman TAS is still reguarded as the premier Batman cartoon because of it's dark and creepy feel and because it achieved so much and even got an Emmy Award if I'm not mistaken, but all in all it's a great series and an icon in superhero animation. There was just "something" about it that gave the series a great feel and flow to it, maybe it was the writing or maybe it was the animation, either way it was a classic.

The Batman was cool, but it didn't pack the punch that TAS did, it was just missing that certain "something".

Both Batman: The Animated Series and The Batman won Emmy Awards.

[Mister Miracle]

Im going to sit here and say why THE BATMAN, could never be BTAS

Im just going to point out the movie

Mask of the phantasm, compare that to THE BATMAN movie with Dracula!
Even the subzero movie from BTAS was good!


Btas is still talked about, prob because of all the memories we have watching it, and mostly because IT WAS FREAKING AMAZING

[Antiyonder]

Im going to sit here and say why THE BATMAN, could never be BTAS

Im just going to point out the movie

Mask of the phantasm, compare that to THE BATMAN movie with Dracula!
Even the subzero movie from BTAS was good!


Btas is still talked about, prob because of all the memories we have watching it, and mostly because IT WAS FREAKING AMAZING

Sure it's no BTAS, but that little fact alone doesn't equal automatic suckage. Provide a reason why you don't like it that has nothing to do with BTAS.

[ABrown]

TNBA is considered a part of BTAS.


Which is incorrect. Same continuity, different show.

The New Batman Adventures is the same show at Batman:The Animated Series. One of the tests that I use to determine if two shows are the same or not is: would it be possible for both to have new episodes produced and being aired at the same time? And the answer in this case is: no. You wouldn't see new episodes of both Batman:TAS and TNBA at the same time. Just like with Justice League and JLU. They're the same show. There wouldn't be new episodes of both at the same time.

[Gonzales]

The Batman is forgotten because it was a bad show. Period. The villains were flashy and cheesy, the plots were forgettable, and a lot of the show felt like a toy commercial. Plus, it never really knew what it wanted to be. Sometimes it tried to be light-hearted, while at other times it was serious. Both were pretty unconvincing.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Obviously, The Batman isn't forgotten...

Either it's disregarded by some who didn't like it, bashed by some who outright hated it, or misunderstood by some who just can't get past it as a successor to Batman: The Animated Series. But it is also loved by quite a few fans who see it for what it is -- a stylish, dynamic, action-packed, youthful interpretation of an icon -- and appreciate it.

Heck, based this thread, if anything, it's not forgotten at all, but highly remembered and still mighty controversial even after its demise.

[DisneyBoy]

I think I'm less hostile towards it now that I admit to being back in the day. What can I say? This new series got the Templeton/Burchett Batman Adventures comic series cancelled (albeit indirectly) and that was the final source for new B:TAS stories. I still miss it.

Ironically, The Batman Strikes became a really, really good book, so I think I'll be remembering that more than the show, which I never watched. Didn't buy the book of course, but I remember Chris Jones' art and the fan-pleasing storytelling.

[creativerealms]

I think I'm less hostile towards it now that I admit to being back in the day. What can I say? This new series got the Templeton/Burchett Batman Adventures comic series cancelled (albeit indirectly) and that was the final source for new B:TAS stories. I still miss it.

Ironically, The Batman Strikes became a really, really good book, so I think I'll be remembering that more than the show, which I never watched. Didn't buy the book of course, but I remember Chris Jones' art and the fan-pleasing storytelling.

Agreed about the Batman Strikes. It's Rupert Thorn Side story was very nice of course it vanished over time (Due to writers I think) Some of the villains that were poorly handled in the show were also well done in the comic like Poison Ivy

[Cartoon-Man]

BTAS revolutionized how people even <i>drew </i>cartoon characters. The other day, I was watching Liberty's Kids, and I was struck by how drastically DIC had changed their designs, from the lumpy designs of Cops 'n Crooks to a streamlined, BTAS-inspired look. ...Do you realize that there were already cartoons that used stylized designs before BTAS (Disney movies, for example)?

Plus, every cartoon from the 60's that I know of was drawn like that. But that was only because the technology and budget used back then didn't allow the characters to be drawn too detailed. When technology advanced, cartoons started using more realistic designs. So, in a sense, BTAS designs could be considered was a step back.


The Marvel shows in the 90s were still following the old needless realism of the 80s, looking very similar to GI Joe and Jem designs.
You're saying it as if the stylized designs being superior to realistic styles was a FACT. Which it is not. It is a matter of opinion and tastes.

And for comic book cartoons, I like that "needless realistic" style better than cartoony designs, since they look much closer to the source material. Comic books use realistic designs.

Plus, I could call BT-ish designs "needlessly simplistic", since modern technology is capable of allowing the use of much more detailed designs and animation.


TB had slick animation and streamlined designs, but it was only applying tricks learned and perfected on BTAS. TB, like the merely decent Marvel shows before it, followed the current trends and never really brought anything new to the table.
It was the first Bat-cartoon to use story arcs. But I guess you're talking about cartoons in general, not just Batman ones, so I can't disagree with your statement.
Still, I would like to point out that TB handled Clayface and Hugo Strange much better than BTAS IMO, so it's not like TB is inferior in every aspect.

And about every pre-TB Marvel cartoon being "merely decent": I would rather watch the last two seasons of X-Men Evolution than some DCAU cartoons. But we're getting off-topic, so I suggest we leave it at that.

[Wonderwall]

...Do you realize that there were already cartoons that used stylized designs before BTAS (Disney movies, for example)?

Plus, every cartoon from the 60's that I know of was drawn like that. But that was only because the technology and budget used back then didn't allow the characters to be drawn too detailed. When technology advanced, cartoons started using more realistic designs. So, in a sense, BTAS designs could be considered was a step back.

It's not really a step back. It's just making something old new again. The Fleisher cartoons were pretty simplistic but still looked awesome, which Batman took inspiration from. Cartoons still don't allow for vast amounts of detail. Any animation school or anyone in animation would tell you that. When cartoons started using more detailed designs the animation suffered. That is a step back as that's the whole point of a cartoon...movement.



You're saying it as if the stylized designs being superior to realistic styles was a FACT. Which it is not. It is a matter of opinion and tastes.

And for comic book cartoons, I like that "needless realistic" style better than cartoony designs, since they look much closer to the source material. Comic books use realistic designs.

Plus, I could call BT-ish designs "needlessly simplistic", since modern technology is capable of allowing the use of much more detailed designs and animation.

Whether people like it is an opinion yes. However if were talking about making things move on screen more fluidly, a more stylized version is superior and that is a fact. If you like the realistic style in comics, a cartoon probably isn't for you( unless you can ignore those things ).

Not all comics are realistic either, you can name some of the best comic artists and their stuff isn't photo realistic. Which is good because I think that's part of suspension of disbelief that these characters aren't quite real. Only Alex Ross pulls that off for me, even then I have a love hate thing with his stuff( its too good for comics ).

Modern technology can is only capable to an extent. Bruce's designs are about the standard in animation on TV so I wouldn't say its needlessly simplistic. You start trying to make a cartoon like X Men or Spider man from the 90s and its not going to move anywhere near as fluid or look as good on screen as say Samurai jack, the DCAU, Kim Possible, etc.

[Cartoon-Man]

It's not really a step back. It's just making something old new again.
Again, Disney movies always used that style, even when technology advanced enough to allow cartoons to use detailed designs. So why are people convinced that so many modern cartoons use stylized designs because of BTAS, when they might have been inspired by Disney?
Though I'll grant you that most action series that use stylized designs are likely to have drawn inspiration from BTAS.


The Fleisher cartoons were pretty simplistic but still looked awesome, which Batman took inspiration from. Cartoons still don't allow for vast amounts of detail. Any animation school or anyone in animation would tell you that. When cartoons started using more detailed designs the animation suffered. That is a step back as that's the whole point of a cartoon...movement.

Whether people like it is an opinion yes. However if were talking about making things move on screen more fluidly, a more stylized version is superior and that is a fact. If you like the realistic style in comics, a cartoon probably isn't for you( unless you can ignore those things ).
I would say that's a exaggeration. There are plenty of anime series that have detailed animation and designs, and their animation still looks very fluidly. Which proves that cartoons with a budget high enough and good animators can look very detailed.


Not all comics are realistic either, you can name some of the best comic artists and their stuff isn't photo realistic.
I didn't say that they must be photo realistic :eek:
The level of detail used in most comic books is alright to me.

[Wonderwall]

Again, Disney movies always used that style, even when technology advanced enough to allow cartoons to use detailed designs. So why are people convinced that so many modern cartoons use stylized designs because of BTAS, when they might have been inspired by Disney?
Though I'll grant you that most action series that use stylized designs are likely to have drawn inspiration from BTAS.

A lack of research I suppose? Disney was definitely the place where it started though. Sleeping Beauty being the one that gets a lot of credit for being more stylized than the films before it.



I would say that's a exaggeration. There are plenty of anime series that have detailed animation and designs, and their animation still looks very fluidly. Which proves that cartoons with a budget high enough and good animators can look very detailed.

Yea but for every really awesome looking anime, there's about 10 that are brutal to look at. I dont think studios would ever put that much money into cartoons that aren't features. Especially with the pool of good animators being somewhat limited.



I didn't say that they must be photo realistic :eek:
The level of detail used in most comic books is alright to me.

My bad I shouldn't have said photo realism. But I think that only a handful of comic artists styles would easily translate and still look like the source. Darwyn Cooke for example.

[Wolf Boy2]

...Do you realize that there were already cartoons that used stylized designs before BTAS (Disney movies, for example)?
Oh yes, of course. But BTAS was a pioneer on television, and it did seem to launch a new trend of streamlined designs in action cartoons. Previously, streamlined designs were only used in the squishies.


Plus, every cartoon from the 60's that I know of was drawn like that. But that was only because the technology and budget used back then didn't allow the characters to be drawn too detailed. When technology advanced, cartoons started using more realistic designs. So, in a sense, BTAS designs could be considered was a step back.
But not ACTION cartoons. Johnny Quest, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Batman (Filmation), Superfriends ... all of those were realistic. Cartoony designs were mostly for comedy. Did you ever see the origin episode of the 60s Spider-Man? It had some shots that were so detailed they looked exactly like Steve Ditko's comic art. By the 1980s, all action cartoons were realistic: He-Man, Thundercats, Transformers, GI Joe, Inhumaniods, Captain Planet and even Ninja Turtles to a lesser extent (Shredder and his goons, for example).


And for comic book cartoons, I like that "needless realistic" style better than cartoony designs, since they look much closer to the source material. Comic books use realistic designs.
Oh, I like the realism too. When GI Joe animated well, it's visual splendor drove the DCAU shows out of the water. But there were very few of those moments, and the bad GI Joe animation outstunk even the worst BTAS animation. BTAS was always fluid, unlike GI Joe.


Plus, I could call BT-ish designs "needlessly simplistic", since modern technology is capable of allowing the use of much more detailed designs and animation.
I could buy that argument in modern times, but in 1990? BTAS was made with the same technology of the 80s cartoons. The designs were a MAJOR part of why it worked so well. Also, time and budget has a lot to do with it. "Transformers: The Movie" (1986) had exqusite animation, but it took 2 years to make. It would've been nice if the Transformers series had spent a year or more on each episode, but time and budget wouldn't allow it. "Mask of the Phantasm" wasn't the drastic visual improvement over its respective series like the Transformers movie was, but I'd rather have overall consistancy than a good movie and a bad series.


It was the first Bat-cartoon to use story arcs. But I guess you're talking about cartoons in general, not just Batman ones, so I can't disagree with your statement.
Well, I would argue that BTAS had story arcs. Granted, they weren't organized, season-long arcs. But each character appearance built on the previous one, often times overlapping and weaving a very cohesive whole. I've been watching BTAS in order with my little brothers, and I'm surprised by how much continuity there really was. You just have to look a little harder to find the story arcs in BTAS, but they are definitely there. I wish I had watched them in order when I first got the DVDs, as it would've given me a much better perspective on the series as a whole.


And about every pre-TB Marvel cartoon being "merely decent": I would rather watch the last two seasons of X-Men Evolution than some DCAU cartoons. But we're getting off-topic, so I suggest we leave it at that.
Pre-TB? I didn't say TB was an influence on the Marvel shows. If anything, BTAS was. X-Men Emo looked much more like BTAS than X-Men TAS. As for the new Marvel shows, I've only seen Spectacular Spider-Man, so I cannot really judge them.

[Animation Freak]

Plus, I could call BT-ish designs "needlessly simplistic", since modern technology is capable of allowing the use of much more detailed designs and animation.

Not necessarily. The technology may've improved, but for the most part there's still budget and time issues and a lot of cartoons are still hand-drawn, so too much detail can still bog down animation for a TV series on a series budget. Timm's designs may be simplistic, but a lot of animation during and around the time B: TAS preimered that appeared for "super-detailed shows" tend to cause the animation to be easy to mess up.

Even though they were more detailed, The Batman and X-Men: Evolution were still less detailed and better animated than G.I. Joe or several of the 90s Marvel cartoons.

[Munkiman]

I haven't seen B:TAS in so long that it's too hazy in my memory for me to comment on it, so I'll just stick to the two Batman shows I remember well.

On the subject of The Batman lacking the "nostalgia" factor? I'm 15 right now, so I started watching The Batman when I was around 9 or 10. I don't know if that's enough to count for nostalgia, but I was definitely more of a kid then than I am now, and I don't remember The Batman as being a particularly memorable show. I watched it on Saturday mornings, but I never thought it was especially good or one of my favorites, and I still don't. It was interesting enough to get a 10-year-old to keep watching from one ep to the next, but that's not saying much. I can't recall if there even were any arcs at all, other than the Justice League forming in Season 5, so its arc storytelling wasn't very memorable.

Although I did love The Batman vs. Dracula.

But I love Batman the Brave and the Bold for its awesomely animated action scenes (which are actually a lot faster and more fluid than a lot of the action in, say, Justice League), its laugh-out-loud humor that doesn't overshadow the plot, and, despite its light-heartedness, its willingness to show and talk about death and guns. The writing in most of the episodes (there are a few eps that don't stand up to the better ones, like "Invasion of the Secret Santas!" and "Day of the Dark Knight!" but every show has its ups and downs). Plus, unlike TB (tuberculosis?), it doesn't retread the ground of things already done by B:TAS; TB&TB rarely focuses on Batman's rogues gallery and supporting cast in Gotham City, which was done by both B:TAS and The Batman.

[satam55]

Nostalgia. Same reason people talk about old CN/Nick/Disney shows despite the new ones being much more popular. Wait 10-20 years until the kids who watch todays shows grow up and talk about them on the internet.

There's also the factor of it being part of the DCAU which ended only a few years ago. It'll be talked about just being connected to that; so it's not exactly the same thing. If The Batman was part of a continuity than spanned over a decade then it would no doubt be mentioned frequently.

BS!!!! The Cartoon in the late 80's and 90's are 100000000000000X better than the cartoons this decade.

[satam55]

In my case, I'm much more of a Marvel Guy. So when it comes to DC Comics, If it ain't DCAU, I'm not interested.

Hate to sound Naive but, In my mind the DCAU is the definitive DC Comics continuity. So whenever I watch a live-action DC Comic movie or TV show (The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, 90s Batman Movies, 70/80 Superman Movies, Smallvile and etc.) I compare it to the DCAU instead of the Comics.

[Antiyonder]

BS!!!! The Cartoon in the late 80's and 90's are 100000000000000X better than the cartoons this decade.

1. The 80s and 90s had it's share of crap as well.

2. It's one thing if you actually watch a show and then decide it's crap, but since you've admitted to not watching The Batman, Legion Of Super Heroes and The Brave And The Bold, your opinion is pretty much invalid.


In my mind the DCAU is the definitive DC Comics continuity. So whenever I watch a live-action DC Comic movie or TV show (The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, 90s Batman Movies, 70/80 Superman Movies, Smallvile and etc.) I compare it to the DCAU instead of the Comics.

Shows do not have to be a carbon copy of the DCAU to be definitively good. Just saying.

[Wolf Boy2]

BS!!!! The Cartoon in the late 80's and 90's are 100000000000000X better than the cartoons this decade.
It's all subjective. Personally, I think the late 80s were garbage and the early 80s were a Golden Age. It really just depends on personal tastes.

I do agree about the DCAU being the definative DC continuity. However, just because I compare other versions of DC to the DCAU doesn't mean I only enjoy the DCAU. "The Long Halloween" (graphic novel) and "The Dark Knight" (film) were very entertaining experiences for me, even though I personally preferred Alan Burnett's "Two-Face" episode. Just because BTAS had my preferred Two-Face origin doesn't deminish the artistic value of the other versions.

[Animation Freak]

In my case, I'm much more of a Marvel Guy. So when it comes to DC Comics, If it ain't DCAU, I'm not interested.

Hate to sound Naive but, In my mind the DCAU is the definitive DC Comics continuity. So whenever I watch a live-action DC Comic movie or TV show (The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, 90s Batman Movies, 70/80 Superman Movies, Smallvile and etc.) I compare it to the DCAU instead of the Comics.

Not only do I have to agree with Antiyonder and Wolf Boy2, but considering the comics are the source material for everything including the DCAU, I'd say that'd be more definitive than the DCAU. Of course, wehich version of comics canon could be considered that is a different matter.

[satam55]

Not only do I have to agree with Antiyonder and Wolf Boy2, but considering the comics are the source material for everything including the DCAU, I'd say that'd be more definitive than the DCAU. Of course, wehich version of comics canon could be considered that is a different matter.


Another reason I've always preferred Marvel to DC. DC has revamped the continuity so many times including Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis story line and so many super-heros have been replaced by another version of that character (plus DC's continuity is at least 30 years older than Marvel's), I don't know what the hell to compare DC Shows and Movies to.

When it comes to Marvel it is much simpler, I know to compare Marvel shows and movies to the Regular Mainstream Marvel Continuity/Universe (Ultimate Marvel Universe, Marvel Universe 2 and etc. Don't matter).

[Antiyonder]

I don't know what the hell to compare DC Shows and Movies to.

Comparison here and there are fine, but why don't you try enjoying a show on it's own merit rather than expecting to measure up to the previous ones?

[satam55]

Shows do not have to be a carbon copy of the DCAU to be definitively good. Just saying.



I agree! But as comic book fans, we're always going to compare Live Action Movies/Shows to the comics, even though we know they are going to fudge alot of things.

So how is that any different from me comparing it to the DCAU instead?

[satam55]

Comparison here and there are fine, but why don't you try enjoying a show on it's own merit rather than expecting to measure up to the previous ones?

I finally tried that last night, when I finally took the Time to watch "The Dark Knight". It is without a doubt the best NON-DCAU Batman Movie, Live Action or Animated. It is almost as Good as "Mask of the Phantasm", if not as good and I made that decision while half-way through the movie. It definitely blew Batman Begins and the 90's Live-action Batman movies out of the water.

[Antiyonder]

I agree! But as comic book fans, we're always going to compare Live Action Movies/Shows to the comics,

And like I said, comparisons to a degree are constructive, but then you need to grade the product without the comparisons as well. A regular healthy fan is certainly capable of that. Fanboys are the ones that nitpick left and right.


even though we know they are going to fudge alot of things.

Sorry, to disagree on this, but if comic book fans want a complete faithful adaptation, they might as well stick to the original story. Part of the appeal to me in seeing a comic book based show is the new direction a character may take.

[Blackstar]

In my case, I'm much more of a Marvel Guy. So when it comes to DC Comics, If it ain't DCAU, I'm not interested.

Hate to sound Naive but, In my mind the DCAU is the definitive DC Comics continuity. So whenever I watch a live-action DC Comic movie or TV show (The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, 90s Batman Movies, 70/80 Superman Movies, Smallvile and etc.) I compare it to the DCAU instead of the Comics.

No offense meant, but I have to say that it would be a lot easier to take your opinion on the DC animated series seriously if you haven't said what you just typed here.

By your own admission, you're close minded to any DC animated series that isn't part of or connected to the DCAU in any way, and saying "It's not the DCAU" is a lame reason for not liking a show, or worse, refusing to to watch it altogether. I'm at least open minded enough to watch a non DCAU series before passing judgment on it. Since you've openly admitted to not even seeing any of the post DCAU series such as Legion of Super Heroes or The Brave and the Bold on the sole reasoning that they aren't the DCAU, I don't see why anyone should value your "opinion" on any of them.

[Munkiman]

Another reason I've always preferred Marvel to DC. DC has revamped the continuity so many times including Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis story line and so many super-heros have been replaced by another version of that character (plus DC's continuity is at least 30 years older than Marvel's), I don't know what the hell to compare DC Shows and Movies to.

When it comes to Marvel it is much simpler, I know to compare Marvel shows and movies to the Regular Mainstream Marvel Continuity/Universe (Ultimate Marvel Universe, Marvel Universe 2 and etc. Don't matter).
I personally don't usually care about continuity. It's the quality of the individual story I care about. For instance, take Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. Great graphic novel, but it's not in the official DC continuity, taking place instead in a possible alternate future but set in the 80s, when it was written. Does that diminish the value of the story? Hell no.

[CyberCubed]

Getting back to the original topic, I guess its also because The Batman only had a 5 year run.

The other problem is the DCAU Batman was part of Justice League while Seasons 1-3 of The Batman were airing, so most people couldn't bother to get into another Batman when the one from their childhood was still on the air.

Then when Season 4 of The Batman started, people began to get into it seriously, but by that point the show was pretty much over.

And now with Brave and the Bold on the air, The Batman has the "middle show" syndrome. It's not the classic stuff (DCAU), and it's not what's on the air currently (Brave and the Bold), so nobody is really talking about it.

The Batman is likely going to only be fondly remembered by whatever young kids watched it on Saturday mornings and still remember it now. But I'm sure those same young kids are now watching Brave and the Bold, so I doubt they mind too much.

[ABrown]

the DCAU Batman was part of Justice League while Seasons 1-3 of The Batman were airing

I never really stopped and thought about it, but I wonder what little kids thought about the fact that there were 2 totally different animated Batmans on television at the same time. I wonder if 15 years from now the kids who were 4-10 years old will be more nostalgic for the Justice League Batman or The Batman Batman (too many Batmans....:confused:)

[satam55]

Not only do I have to agree with Antiyonder and Wolf Boy2, but considering the comics are the source material for everything including the DCAU, I'd say that'd be more definitive than the DCAU. Of course, wehich version of comics canon could be considered that is a different matter.


Agreed, But I'm basically saying I prefer the DCAU Continuity over the ridiculously impossible to keep up with DC Comics continuity.


Getting back to the original topic, I guess its also because The Batman only had a 5 year run.

The other problem is the DCAU Batman was part of Justice League while Seasons 1-3 of The Batman were airing, so most people couldn't bother to get into another Batman when the one from their childhood was still on the air.

Then when Season 4 of The Batman started, people began to get into it seriously, but by that point the show was pretty much over.

And now with Brave and the Bold on the air, The Batman has the "middle show" syndrome. It's not the classic stuff (DCAU), and it's not what's on the air currently (Brave and the Bold), so nobody is really talking about it.


The sad thing is WB or DC treated The Batman as if it was more Important than JLU by enforcing the Bat Embargo, despite the fact that JLU was much more popular and has much more viewers.

[chdr]

Getting back to the original topic, I guess its also because The Batman only had a 5 year run.

I don't see why that would turn people off. Five years is a long time for a show to be on the air, especially considering most KidsWB shows at that time rarely got past three. Also, The Batman has been on the air longer than any DCAU show has (unless you count JL and JLU as one series).

The other problem is the DCAU Batman was part of Justice League while Seasons 1-3 of The Batman were airing, so most people couldn't bother to get into another Batman when the one from their childhood was still on the air.

I doubt that was ever a factor to children. Children don't care if Batman has been in multiple series prior to The Batman, they just want an entertaining show. Did DCAU fans who grew up with Superfriends ever complain about how the DCAU used a different Batman than from Superfriends?

Then when Season 4 of The Batman started, people began to get into it seriously, but by that point the show was pretty much over.

How is that the fault of The Batman? If anything, that's the fault of stubborn fans who realized The Batman was good but was too late to enjoy it fully.

And now with Brave and the Bold on the air, The Batman has the "middle show" syndrome. It's not the classic stuff (DCAU), and it's not what's on the air currently (Brave and the Bold), so nobody is really talking about it.

Just because nobody's talking about it now doesn't mean that people won't talk about it later. Shows have to be given time before they gain a cult following.

The Batman is likely going to only be fondly remembered by whatever young kids watched it on Saturday mornings and still remember it now. But I'm sure those same young kids are now watching Brave and the Bold, so I doubt they mind too much.

Again, kids care about good cartoons. Not which version of Batman they are watching. I don't even think most adults care about that.

[Blackstar]

The sad thing is WB or DC treated The Batman as if it was more Important than JLU by enforcing the Bat Embargo, despite the fact that JLU was much more popular and has much more viewers.

With all due respect, please stop employing the reasoning of a 10-year-old DCAU fanboy. The Bat-Embargo had nothing to do with WB thinking that The Batman was "more important than JLU". The embargo went into effect mostly due to licensing. It was so there wouldn't be 2 different versions of the Joker, the Penguin, Poison Ivy, Robin, Batgirl etc. appearing simultaneously on 2 unrelated shows on 2 different networks. So some toy companies could and would own the exclusive rights to merchandise certain characters, which is also why Robin didn't join the cast of The Batman until after Teen Titans ended.

It was also to avoid confusion from fans; some fans might have seen the same characters appearing on 2 different series and think that the 2 shows were connected, which they weren't. Heck, even with Bat-Embargo in effect, there were still some fans who thought that Teen Titans and The Batman took place in the same universe just because both shows were airing on Kids' WB.

There was also an Aqua-Embargo which prevented Aquaman and all Aquaman related characters from appearing in the last season of JLU that went into effect when the WB network was planning a live action prime-time series based on that character, hence why we got Devil Ray in Grodd's Secret Society instead of the more expected Black Manta. Alleged preference of 1 show had nothing to do with it. At all.

[matthewscott614]

When this thread first showed up I did not feel the need to post.
It seemed clear to me that the answer to this question is obvious.

For starters TAS has many many timeless elements.
Every layer of the TAS mosaic features a classic approach.
Little if anything in Batman TAS can be pinned down to 1992.

For example the music is made with instruments & in a style
that started over 300 hundred years ago, its timeless.
And to narrow it down further 1930's & 1940's American film scores.
That is one of the things that makes Star Wars so great.
Imagine having disco going on during the Battle Of Yavin?
Or in the case of TAS getting served up with a helping of Vanilla Ice.
The music was key & Shirley Walker did a fabulous job.
The way she continued & added to the Elfman score sealed the deal on making this theme
& all its old & new parts Batman's for all time.
Like it has been around since 1939.

Besides the music lets not forget about the writing, the designs, the voice acting & just about everything else.

It all involves timelessness.

However you can not say this about "The Batman" with any of its elements.

Like a hamburger joint that has lousy burgers,
or a ice cream parlor that has a crappy vanilla,
The Batman has a terrible Joker.

If you can't get your basics right, you will be forgotten in time.

[Animation Freak]

When this thread first showed up I did not feel the need to post.
It seemed clear to me that the answer to this question is obvious.

For starters TAS has many many timeless elements.
Every layer of the TAS mosaic features a classic approach.
Little if anything in Batman TAS can be pinned down to 1992.

For example the music is made with instruments & in a style
that started over 300 hundred years ago, its timeless.
And to narrow it down further 1930's & 1940's American film scores.
That is one of the things that makes Star Wars so great.
Imagine having disco going on during the Battle Of Yavin?
Or in the case of TAS getting served up with a helping of Vanilla Ice.
The music was key & Shirley Walker did a fabulous job.
The way she continued & added to the Elfman score sealed the deal on making this theme
& all its old & new parts Batman's for all time.
Like it has been around since 1939.

Besides the music lets not forget about the writing, the designs, the voice acting & just about everything else.

It all involves timelessness.

However you can not say this about "The Batman" with any of its elements.

Like a hamburger joint that has lousy burgers,
or a ice cream parlor that has a crappy vanilla,
The Batman has a terrible Joker.

If you can't get your basics right, you will be forgotten in time.

Actually, design and combat skills aside (the latter even debatable given how Joker's combat skills have varied over the years), I'd say they did get the Joker right to an extend. And The Batman wasn't trying to be B: TAS. I think that's why a lot of people don't like it. And after the first season, The Batman's writing and voice acting had gotten better and a lot of the design were pretty good outside of a few cases.

However, regardless of what can can say about The Batman, the animation is a lot better than a lot of the early B: TAS episodes.

[Antiyonder]

There was also an Aqua-Embargo which prevented Aquaman and all Aquaman related characters from appearing in the last season of JLU that went into effect when the WB network was planning a live action prime-time series based on that character, hence why we got Devil Ray in Grodd's Secret Society instead of the more expected Black Manta. Alleged preference of 1 show had nothing to do with it. At all.

The Bat Embargo I can respect as The Batman did make use of the characters, but they really should have been sure on creating Mercy Reef before giving AC the embargo. It was The New Fantastic Four all over again.

[satam55]

With all due respect, please stop employing the reasoning of a 10-year-old DCAU fanboy. The Bat-Embargo had nothing to do with WB thinking that The Batman was "more important than JLU". The embargo went into effect mostly due to licensing. It was so there wouldn't be 2 different versions of the Joker, the Penguin, Poison Ivy, Robin, Batgirl etc. appearing simultaneously on 2 unrelated shows on 2 different networks. So some toy companies could and would own the exclusive rights to merchandise certain characters, which is also why Robin didn't join the cast of The Batman until after Teen Titans ended.

It was also to avoid confusion from fans; some fans might have seen the same characters appearing on 2 different series and think that the 2 shows were connected, which they weren't. Heck, even with Bat-Embargo in effect, there were still some fans who thought that Teen Titans and The Batman took place in the same universe just because both shows were airing on Kids' WB.

There was also an Aqua-Embargo which prevented Aquaman and all Aquaman related characters from appearing in the last season of JLU that went into effect when the WB network was planning a live action prime-time series based on that character, hence why we got Devil Ray in Grodd's Secret Society instead of the more expected Black Manta. Alleged preference of 1 show had nothing to do with it. At all.

Whatever, I still think the Bat-Embargo and the Aqua-Embargo are stupid ideas.

[Blackstar]

Whatever, I still think the Bat-Embargo and the Aqua-Embargo are stupid ideas.

Excellent counterpoint, sir. You must be on the debate club.:p

Anyway, no one is saying that you have to like the embargoes, but regardless how one may feel about them, that's just business and it's certainly not worth making a big deal out of now because the embargo thing happened over 5 years ago. My advice: Get over it.

I think we're done here. Anyone else?

[Wolf Boy2]

And The Batman wasn't trying to be B: TAS. I think that's why a lot of people don't like it. And after the first season, The Batman's writing and voice acting had gotten better and a lot of the design were pretty good outside of a few cases.
But in trying to distance itself from B:TAS, it distanced itself from the source material and what people think of as "Batman." B:TAS evoked nostalgia while pushing the envelope and doing new things that cartoons in its time weren't doing. It was fresh and classic at the same time.

TB was a good cartoon, but it didn't do anything new. The designs looked like Jackie Chan and Men in Black designs, and the censorship prevented the show from telling dramatic stories like BTAS. I'm sorry, but there's just no way to compare TB's Mr. Freeze to BTAS's Freeze. I realize that TB wasn't trying to be like BTAS. But there are certain factors that make BTAS is a classic and TB never really had them. The closest thing in TB was "A Matter of Family", but even then, people can't help but measure it against the emmy-winning BTAS version of the Robin origin. Plus, it rode BTAS's coat-tails with the Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill appearances (much like BTAS did with the Gray Ghost).

The fact that BTAS was different from Superfriends proves, in my mind, that people's prefference of BTAS over TB isn't based on mere nostalgia. If nostalgia were the only factor, then there would be BTAS haters insisting that Superfriends and Filmation are the only "true" Batman. And yet, there aren't any. Gosh, I wonder why? ;)


However, regardless of what can can say about The Batman, the animation is a lot better than a lot of the early B: TAS episodes.
Yes, and remakes of classic movies have color and better picture quality. It doesn't change the fact that the original is what everyone knows and loves.

[Wonderwall]

I think we're done here. Anyone else?

Oh if only it were that easy:sweat:

[young101]

Did anyone feel like, "been there, done that."? I'm specifically talking about reintroducing the characters again in The batman. For those that saw btas first as a child, did anyone feel like if they've seen the origin or introduction of a villain in batman the animated series, that there's no point in watching The batman's interpretation? Even with joker, it looks like they tried to do something different with him. In the first ep, he was wearing a strait jacket and used a monkey-like fighting style. But then as the series progressed, he got back his purple jacket and did less of that fighting style.

And yeah, I brought back this thread. I was going to make a new thread for this question but I decided to search, just to keep it in the same thread.

[W.C.Reaf]

Did anyone feel like, "been there, done that."? I'm specifically talking about reintroducing the characters again in The batman. For those that saw btas first as a child, did anyone feel like if they've seen the origin or introduction of a villain in batman the animated series, that there's no point in watching The batman's interpretation?.

Not really. In BTAS the Joker, Penguin, etc were established villains before the series began while The Batman gave us interpretations of Batman first meeting and fighting his foes.

Sure that's not true for all the villains from BTAS and the reinterpretations can go either good or bad. But it gave us better versions of characters from BTAS and TNBA (Hugo Strange, Firefly) and some bad ones (Mr Freeze, Joker), but also did villains BTAS didn't do (Black Mask, Phosphorus, Wraith).

The fact that the interpretations were so different makes sure there's a point to watching The Batman's versions of them.

[ToonFaithful]

Not really. In BTAS the Joker, Penguin, etc were established villains before the series began while The Batman gave us interpretations of Batman first meeting and fighting his foes.

Sure that's not true for all the villains from BTAS and the reinterpretations can go either good or bad. But it gave us better versions of characters from BTAS and TNBA (Hugo Strange, Firefly) and some bad ones (Mr Freeze, Joker), but also did villains BTAS didn't do (Black Mask, Phosphorus, Wraith).

The fact that the interpretations were so different makes sure there's a point to watching The Batman's versions of them.
Joker and Mr. Freeze's appearances in The Batman didn't look good IMO.

[veemonjosh]

Heck, even with Bat-Embargo in effect, there were still some fans who thought that Teen Titans and The Batman took place in the same universe just because both shows were airing on Kids' WB.

Actually, people thought that more because Robin's design on The Batman was pretty much just a younger version of his Teen Titans design, along with the general "Japan-inspired" animation style (or something like that). Though, the drastically-different Killer Moth pretty much tossed that theory right out the window right after the possible Robin evidence.

It was never really because Teen Titans briefly aired on Kids WB, because it has always been established as a Cartoon Network series.

[Revelator]

There's a very obvious and final answer to this question: BTAS broke new ground and The Batman did not. Before BTAS, there were not only no truly good Batman cartoons, there were no great action cartoons on TV period. The Batman eventually became a good show (partly because several BTAS veterans came on board!) but by then it was merely one good cartoon among several others. Whereas BTAS introduced the world to Bruce Timm's designs, thus solving how to convincingly portray humans in an action cartoon, TB merely reused the same design aesthetic found on The Jackie Chan Show, with little regard to how it would look when transferred to Batman's world. And whereas BTAS shocked viewers by taking children's cartoons where they had never been before in episodes like "Heart of Ice"--dealing maturely with death and loss, pulling the viewers's sympathy in several directions, giving depth of character to comics figures previously noted for their one-dimensionality--TB did not break further ground in this area; it was not as mature or serious in its aims; it did not signal to the world that children's superhero cartoons had ascended to the status of art. It just partly reaped the harvest that BTAS helped sow for the entire field of TV cartoons. Lastly, there is the issue of "adaptation distillation." BTAS took in 60 years of continuity and characters and distilled them into what many regarded as definitive versions of the characters. Fans adore it when a show is able to reconcile so many differing versions of a character--they feel they are getting more than their money's worth. And by incorporating and unifying so many differing concepts, BTAS's creators were as able to please as many fans as possible. Even the non-DCAU Batman comics were influenced by BTAS's concepts. By contrast, TB was hobbled by premiering only a few years after the end of TNBA. It could not copy the same processes of distillation that BTAS employed without looking unoriginal, so it was forced to take the characters in "new" directions that were bound to upset some fans--the opposite of distillation.

When we think about the shows we watched as kids or teens, we tend to think of two types of show. The first is equivalent of comfort food--stuff we enjoyed watching, even though we knew it wasn't particularly great, and which the rose-colors of nostalgia have invested with a flattering hue. The second category consists of the shows that wowed us, that did things that had never been done before and which we hadn't thought possible, that surprised us and held our attention and emotions with an iron grip. The Batman fits into the comfort food mode, whereas BTAS--regardless of its own flaws--stands as epochal, whether in the history books or our personal affections.

[dark knight 90]

This show has now been sandwiched between Batman: The Animated Series (to an extent Batman Beyond) and Batman: The Brave and the Bold.

They all did something different and unique with the character... The Batman did not.

It will be always known as the Batman cartoon that didnt contibute much to the mythology, merely threw a new art style at the character to sell a few more toys and was ultimately quite bland.

[Radical Raven]

Actually, this ties into what I felt The Batman's greatest weakness was - it was completely unmemorable. A very few episodes had scenes that made them worth watching twice, and the rest were all fine little excursions that did nothing whatsoever to grab the viewers attention.

[AlienX]

well I thought it was a fresh fun show, It was supposed to be the early years of batman growing to become who he is and I hate the fact that everyones saying batman tas was "that" amazing because I feel the show is hit or miss for me there are just a number of duds in it, I liked the fact we see bruce wayne in his early years it shows a new dynamic and was fun even in it's considered "worst" first season and I think there have been a number of action shows that are a lot better or have beaten batman tas in different areas like animation,consistency and the batman was always about highlighting batman not his villians like greg weisman said in his interview with toonzone that's why i usually disagree with calling season 4 the best season I think the first 3 have more fresh ideas and designs while season 4 was more of a result of his growth of the first 3 seasons and things start to become like the comics

[Cartoon X]

While The Batman is not bad, it did not meet the standards others had set for it, which were unfairly based by B:TAS. Plus, the time has not come for it to be remembered fondly, wait 10 or 15 years and people will be reminising about The Batman, and a majority will have forgotten B:TAS.

(Did I spell reminising right?):sweat:

[Revelator]

Plus, the time has not come for it to be remembered fondly, wait 10 or 15 years and people will be reminising about The Batman, and a majority will have forgotten B:TAS.

Why would the majority forget remembering a show they loved? The only way that would be possible would be if they died. 10 years from now people may reminisce fondly about TB, but it won't be with the fervor and passion that most people reminisce about BTAS with. People will always remember more vividly the show that broke barriers and set new horizons, not that shows that trailed in its wake.


I hate the fact that everyones saying batman tas was "that" amazing because I feel the show is hit or miss for me there are just a number of duds in it

No one's denying that BTAS had its fair share of duds. But that's pretty much irrelevant. People don't valorize and love a show just because it had consistent animation or had few bad episodes--what matters is whether the show touched greatness or not, and whether it blew people's minds when it did. The presence of episodes like "Cat Scratch Fever" doesn't negate the ground-breaking nature of "Heart of Ice" or "Over the Edge." Episodes like those redefined what was possible in the genre, and that's not an achievement The Batman will ever be able to lay claim to.

[Alph]

BTAS and STAS still air on Jetix, don't they? I remembered seeing them not to long ago. And of course there's still reruns of JL/JLU. So it's possible that even now kids have been more exposed to the BTAS Batman than they are to The Batman.


But anyway, I think kids today will remember "The Batman", but it will just be one of many that they remember being exposed to. Whether or not it was their favorite will depend on the individual kid (although I suspect most will favor either the more serious BTAS-JLU incarnation or the more lighthearted BatB incarnation, but that's just a guess).

[Starbro]

BTAS and STAS still air on Jetix, don't they?

Nothing airs on Jetix anymore. Jetix has ceased to be.

Anyways, I tend to fall in the train of thought that The Batman just kind if ended up sandwiched between Batman: TAS and The Brave & the Bold. The Batman, while not a terrible show, didn't really bring anything new to the table; just some redesigned and/or re-imagined characters.

While it does get a tad irritating how some fans of B:TAS tend to hold the show up on a pedestal as the greatest thing to happen to TV since the invention of Jiffy-Pop, there's no denying that B:TAS filled a longing: it gave us a serious, film noir-ish Dark Knight mythos that many fans wanted to see in an animated Batman that wasn't possible in the Hanna-Barbera/Filmation era.

The Brave & the Bold similarly gives us a new and unique take on the franchise: it offers a campy Golden Age Batman that still manages to be cool and formidable despite making corny puns, and it gives some of DC lesser-known heroes and villains time to shine.

The Batman, while ostensibly chronicling the early years of the Caped Crusader a la Batman Begins, soon abandoned that idea in favor of network imposed teen appeal and violated that "early career" rule by giving Bruce sidekicks. The other problem was that TB was very toyetic, even more so than other Batman shows; nearly everything featured on the show existed to sell more toys and merchandise.

The Batman could've succeeded as a credible stand-alone interpretation, but it had the misfortune of coming between 2 groundbreaking and genre-defining series. It wasn't a bad show, but it just wasn't very innovative.

[ABrown]

BTAS and STAS still air on Jetix, don't they?

I wouldn't expect to see either show on Disney XD any more with Disney having purchased Marvel. In fact I saw a commercial for a big marathon of Marvel cartoons on Disney XD. Sounds like fun:(

[AlienX]

Nothing airs on Jetix anymore. Jetix has ceased to be.

Anyways, I tend to fall in the train of thought that The Batman just kind if ended up sandwiched between Batman: TAS and The Brave & the Bold. The Batman, while not a terrible show, didn't really bring anything new to the table; just some redesigned and/or re-imagined characters.


The Batman, while ostensibly chronicling the early years of the Caped Crusader a la Batman Begins, soon abandoned that idea in favor of network imposed teen appeal and violated that "early career" rule by giving Bruce sidekicks. The other problem was that TB was very toyetic, even more so than other Batman shows; nearly everything featured on the show existed to sell more toys and merchandise.

The Batman could've succeeded as a credible stand-alone interpretation, but it had the misfortune of coming between 2 groundbreaking and genre-defining series. It wasn't a bad show, but it just wasn't very innovative.

I thought it was very innovative changing the villians and making the world seem fresh again, and the batman was kinda toyetic but that doesn't mean the producers didn't try to make the gadgets work with the stories , I mean most of the gadgets that appeared on this show appeared on batman tas they just looked more elaborate and what superhero show doesn't get made to sell toys I mean batman the brave and the bold and even batman tas was made to sell toys riding on the success of the movies. Even then I think kids in the long run would perfer batman the brave and the bold because it's fun, batman tas would not hold kids attention spans today I know kids who perfer the batman and batman the brave and the bold.

the batman was originally critized for being too radically different and now it's being complained for not being innovative enough even though only the 4th season tried to do traditional spins on the characters.

But everyone has there own opinon, I'm not trying to convince anyone to like it but the batman's reputation always gets critized for the wrong reasons the point is I thought it was a fun show

[Alph]

Nothing airs on Jetix anymore. Jetix has ceased to be.


Wow, I feel really out of the loop.


I guess that's what happens when you switch mainly over to watching things on DVD.

[Anarky]

To answer the thread question: Because the classics never die.

BTAS is the standard by which superhero animation will be judged.

Perhaps in 10 years, when The Batman's target audience become adults they'll wax on its greatness. Or not. Fact is that BTAS became legend when it premiered. Add the fact that it became the bedrock for the entire DCAU whereas The Batman was a mere standalone series.

I'm not bagging on TB however I admit I have a like-meh relationship w/ it. I'd say it's a 65/35 split in favor of liking it. Here's the truth serum: I've yet to purchase the last 2 seasons of TB whereas I was in the stores on release day for BTAS. If I had the coin, I'd splurge on the complete series edition as well.

[I'mBatman]

BTAS is the best but TB is ok for what it is.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

KidsWB weekdays and saturday mornings pretty much collapsed during the course of its run so TB didn't get nearly as much exposure as B:TAS or B:BATB and it seemed like neither CN or Boomerang or anywhere else that briefly ran the series reran the series in its entirety once much less multiple times unlike either of the more talked about ones

season 2 which was an improvement from 1 and the movie which was nice if not creepy were the last I ever saw of it :( maybe I will check out the season sets sometime and give TB a good easy beginning to end watch which the networks denied me

[Dusty]

Truthfully I love(ed) The Batman, I actually cannot stand to watch BTAS (I loved it as a kid, but now the animation and character designs are way to clunky and fuzzy for me) IMO people were and still are, way too hard on TB, and people praise BTAS way way way too much, :radda:


(Note: All comments posted by user Dusty, are only his opinions and personal views, and were in no way meant to intentionally cause problems or insult anyone. If you feel his comments were offensive or inappropriate, please contact him by PM (Private Message,) Email (Electronic Mail,) or contact the appointed Message Forum Moderator, thank-you.)

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[Wolf Boy2]

I think TB would've been received a lot better if it was about someone other than Batman. I see this pattern repeat over and over in Transformers and Star Trek fandom ... everything is judged by how it compares to the original.

For me, I'm not really bothered by fuzzy designs and clunky animation. They annoy me, yes, but I prefer the old hand-drawn style over digital any day, so B:TAS is still the rightful Classic in my mind (though I actually prefer TNBA, if you wanna really split hairs).

BB was a good cartoon, but a mediocre Batman. Not unlike how Voyager and Enterprise were actually good shows, but still locked into the standard Star Trek plot formulae and never able to outshine the Original Series or Next Generation. People complain about the changes that TB made, but in truth, it was hurt more by following the Batman formula (Bruce Wayne secret identity, Wayne Manor, Alfred, the Batcave, ect) because that left it wide open for criticism when it wasn't able to outshine it's predecessor.

If there is anything to be learned from "Star Trek: The Next Generation", it's that a show MUST be better than the one before it in all the ways that the fans want it to be ... and in the case of TB, it just wasn't possible. But if the TB series had been something like the "Deadshot" segment of Gotham Knight, it probably would've usurped B:TAS as the ultimate Batman series.

Then there is also the Bat-Embargo, which really fueled the fire. Now not only was TB a sucky Batman, it was also the reason why JLU couldn't use the Bat-villains. Even though there was no real indication that they would've used them anyway, a lot of people (myself included) blamed TB. In fact, I was a severe TB hater (I even got my first real warning on TZ for making hate comments).

Last of all, BTAS was more fleshed-out than TB. In BTAS, we saw all sorts of flashbacks and moments explaining the whole history of Bruce Wayne's life and training. TB had some of this, but not nearly as much (since TB was more focused on how Batman was developing in the present). TB was a fun, plot-driven series, but it wasn't the definitive statement on Batman's world that BTAS was. It's not unlike how the original Transformers cartoon is still the definitive version of the franchise for many people, because it fleshes out the backstories and character origins that later TF shows ignored.

Even though BTAS (like the original Transformers) doesn't hold up as well today, it's still remembered because it explored a lot more ground than the later (and more visually sophisticated) shows did or could.

EDIT: I forgot to mention voice actors. To continue the Transformers comparison, Keven Conroy (Batman) was the Peter Cullen (Optimus Prime) of DC Animation. Keven Conroy has voiced Batman in other features (just like Peter Cullen voiced Prime in the movies), but they got their fist and most exposure in their respective cartoons. No matter how good a new show is, it just won't be the same without THAT voice.

[Napoleon Solo]

B:TAS will always be held in more esteen that TB for one reason. Bruce Timm. He basically laid out a whole DCAU and really made no mistakes going from B:TAS through JLU (Unless you were Alex Toth and thought Superman:TAS should have been more like the Fleischer's). TB was ok but B:TAS was gold. Hell, I'd rate TB after the Filmation Batman's but that's just for my sick love of Filmation superhero cartoons. :) I still want those on dvd!!!

[W.C.Reaf]

I think TB would've been received a lot better if it was about someone other than Batman. I see this pattern repeat over and over in Transformers and Star Trek fandom ... everything is judged by how it compares to the original.

While that's certainly true that fans are judging it unfairly because of BTAS, but if it had no connections to Batman the first season (the one which most people would see first) is still pretty bad. It's not well written overall, the plots are simplistic, the characters were at most 2-dimensional, the villains were poor, dumb, and had stupid goals (or at least badly executed goals), and the characters had very little depth to them.

If the show had not been Batman related I doubt it would've lasted long enough to get good. End of season 1 and season 2 the show started coming into its own (or season 4 to some people), but before that it was a generic superhero show with little going for it other than Batman. Which would bring more people to watch it and stick with it 'cause they already know Batman and he just had a hit film before it (Batman Begins).


Last of all, BTAS was more fleshed-out than TB. In BTAS, we saw all sorts of flashbacks and moments explaining the whole history of Bruce Wayne's life and training.

I don't remember that many flashback moments. There was the Zatana episode and the first Ninja episode, but that's all I can think of that did flashbacks to Bruce's training.

Two episodes does not make it more fleshed out than TB.

[Wolf Boy2]

While that's certainly true that fans are judging it unfairly because of BTAS, but if it had no connections to Batman the first season (the one which most people would see first) is still pretty bad. It's not well written overall, the plots are simplistic, the characters were at most 2-dimensional, the villains were poor, dumb, and had stupid goals (or at least badly executed goals), and the characters had very little depth to them.
Call me cynical, but that's most cartoons. Stuff like Jackie Chan and Ben 10 have done well enough over the years while hardly being Oscar caliber film.

But I do agree, it probably would've flopped without Batman. However, if it was an original show, it wouldn't have been considered to have ruined anything.


I don't remember that many flashback moments. There was the Zatana episode and the first Ninja episode, but that's all I can think of that did flashbacks to Bruce's training.

Two episodes does not make it more fleshed out than TB.
Dude, there was more than that:

Mask of the Phantasm - half the movie was flashbacks

Beware the Gray Ghost - Bruce as a boy, his TV inspiration

The Mechanic - Origin of the Batmobile

Zatanna - training under Zatarra

Night of the Ninja - training in Japan

Appointment in Crime Alley - his parents murder

Paging the Crime Doctor - discussion of his father

Perchance to Dream - his parents if they had lived

Dreams in Darkness - nightmare memory of Wayne murders

The Lion and the Unicron - mentions that Alfred used to be a British spy

All this stuff forms a more complete picture of Batman than we ever got from "The Batman."

[sdp]

The Batman is forgotten because it had a bad reputation. BTAS is a great cartoon, and nostalgia goggles only make it seem this great show even better. In fact a lot of people will bash TNBA because its different from BTAS even though TNBA is just as good. Same with Batman Beyond.

Now a new cartoon is announced and its not what people wanted, they wanted more BTAS not a new cartoon. Then character designs are revealed and people hate them. So yeah people had already made up their minds about the show before even seeing it. Personally I liked the character designs, as for the more extreme/different ones, they were done for one purpose, to be different from BTAS. And yet people wouldn't give them a chance since it was different.

Now the first episodes air and people hate the show because its not like BTAS, its more kid friendly. And that bad reputation followed the show for its five seasons. The general consensus on the internet is that its bad. That won't change until kids who grew up with The Batman start growing up and post on the internet, obviously the show did good enough to be on the air and have a toyline for five seasons.

Now Brave and the Bold also started on a bad note, people didn't want another Batman cartoon since The Batman had just been cancelled a few months ago. Then the character designs were revealed and people hated them, again the show had been judged before even airing an episode. However this show is totally different from the previous two batman cartoons and goes for a very light hearted approach which (like teen titans) got a bunch of praise for its uniqueness. Of course there are still people who hate it and never gave it a chance and say it sucks just because of the art style (like teen titans), however this approach also allowed it to get a fanbase with its unique style.

What hurts The Batman the most is that it was still trying to do a serious Batman cartoon. I'll give them props that they tried to go a different route by giving villains different origins and personalities for Batman to play with. It wasn't trying to do BTAS since they knew they couldn't compete and did a totally different thing. But unlike BatB it wasn't different enough in their approach and people still compared it with BTAS and it failed to live up to it especially since they went with radical ideas to try to be separated from it.

In the end I think The Batman is a great show. Is it as good as BTAS? no. Does it have its flaws? sure. But the show gave us really cool stuff, interesting new dynamics for some villains, interesting story arcs, great action, and even more than a few classic Batman stories.

[AlienX]

The Batman is forgotten because it had a bad reputation. BTAS is a great cartoon, and nostalgia goggles only make it seem this great show even better. In fact a lot of people will bash TNBA because its different from BTAS even though TNBA is just as good. Same with Batman Beyond.

Now a new cartoon is announced and its not what people wanted, they wanted more BTAS not a new cartoon. Then character designs are revealed and people hate them. So yeah people had already made up their minds about the show before even seeing it. Personally I liked the character designs, as for the more extreme/different ones, they were done for one purpose, to be different from BTAS. And yet people wouldn't give them a chance since it was different.

Now the first episodes air and people hate the show because its not like BTAS, its more kid friendly. And that bad reputation followed the show for its five seasons. The general consensus on the internet is that its bad. That won't change until kids who grew up with The Batman start growing up and post on the internet, obviously the show did good enough to be on the air and have a toyline for five seasons.

Now Brave and the Bold also started on a bad note, people didn't want another Batman cartoon since The Batman had just been cancelled a few months ago. Then the character designs were revealed and people hated them, again the show had been judged before even airing an episode. However this show is totally different from the previous two batman cartoons and goes for a very light hearted approach which (like teen titans) got a bunch of praise for its uniqueness. Of course there are still people who hate it and never gave it a chance and say it sucks just because of the art style (like teen titans), however this approach also allowed it to get a fanbase with its unique style.

What hurts The Batman the most is that it was still trying to do a serious Batman cartoon. I'll give them props that they tried to go a different route by giving villains different origins and personalities for Batman to play with. It wasn't trying to do BTAS since they knew they couldn't compete and did a totally different thing. But unlike BatB it wasn't different enough in their approach and people still compared it with BTAS and it failed to live up to it especially since they went with radical ideas to try to be separated from it.

In the end I think The Batman is a great show. Is it as good as BTAS? no. Does it have its flaws? sure. But the show gave us really cool stuff, interesting new dynamics for some villains, interesting story arcs, great action, and even more than a few classic Batman stories.

I completely agree with this statement, thank you spd:)

[GregX]

Even though BTAS (like the original Transformers) doesn't hold up as well today, it's still remembered because it explored a lot more ground than the later (and more visually sophisticated) shows did or could.

EDIT: I forgot to mention voice actors. To continue the Transformers comparison, Keven Conroy (Batman) was the Peter Cullen (Optimus Prime) of DC Animation. Keven Conroy has voiced Batman in other features (just like Peter Cullen voiced Prime in the movies), but they got their fist and most exposure in their respective cartoons. No matter how good a new show is, it just won't be the same without THAT voice.

Comparing the old Transformers cartoon to Batman TAS is faulty. If anything, you should be comparing it to "Superfriends."

Could you imagine anyone who worked on Batman: TAS saying the following:


"No one, not even the story editors, looked at these scripts very carefully. I seem to remember the show being on a really tight schedule, and we had to crank these scripts out fast. I wrote some of them in a single day, first draft, and they went almost immediately to the storyboard artists after Bryce (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Bryce_Malek) or an assistant gave them a rather cursory read. We were not trying to create art, just get them done fast, and get paid... None of the writing on this series, in my opinion, was good or passionate or, sometimes (my own included, like The Autobot Run (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Autobot_Run)) even adequate. But we got paid well for writing them fast.... I was never a fan of any of the characters."
-Donald F. Glut

Or...


“ ...we feel action should be emphasized over plot—especially avoiding any complicated story lines—to ensure the success of this series with its intended viewers. ”
—Bryce Malek (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Bryce_Malek) and Dick Robbins (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dick_Robbins), Transformers story editors, Marvel Productions (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Marvel_Productions) internal correspondence


If anything, "Beast Wars" should be compared to Batman: TAS, since it brought sophisticated storytelling to the Transformers Universe, as well as cutting edge television animated (at the time).

[Wolf Boy2]

Comparing the old Transformers cartoon to Batman TAS is faulty. If anything, you should be comparing it to "Superfriends."
Whether the creators cared about the project is immaterial. But those quotes do not represent the whole of TF writers anyway. Flint Dille and David Wise (while admittedly not as dedicated as the BTAS or TB crews) viewed the series as more than a toy commercial. And it's not surprising that David Wise, who described the show as "epochal and epic" wrote much better scripts than Donald F. Glut, whom you quoted. Just because some of the producers were hacks doesn't mean that all of them were.

For that matter, BTAS had some crew members in the beginning who didn't really give a fig about quality, and it showed in some very infamous episodes. Both series were plagued by Akom animation and the need to reach syndication count quickly.

Superfriends isn't the "definitive" Batman in terms of story continuity, visual style or voice acting. All current DC animation is compared to BTAS, as all current TF is compared to G1.

Though, this reminds me of one thing TB really had over BTAS: consistent animation quality. No cell dirt or mushy models or Akom horror to be found. Granted, this is inherent in any comparison of 2000s animation to 1990s animation and thus a low qualifier for TB. But it's still worth mentioning.

[AlgeaX]

Whether the creators cared about the project is immaterial. But those quotes do not represent the whole of TF writers anyway. Flint Dille and David Wise (while admittedly not as dedicated as the BTAS or TB crews) viewed the series as more than a toy commercial. And it's not surprising that David Wise, who described the show as "epochal and epic" wrote much better scripts than Donald F. Glut, whom you quoted. Just because some of the producers were hacks doesn't mean that all of them were.

Guys like David Wise were still very much the the exeption rather then the rule on the G1 toon, and besides Wise was just a writer not a producer.

[Wolf Boy2]

Guys like David Wise were still very much the the exeption rather then the rule on the G1 toon, and besides Wise was just a writer not a producer.
So was Donald F. Glut, who Greg quoted. Glut didn't even write as many epsiodes as Wise. And Flint Dille, the man behind the movie and season 2, WAS a producer and in his commentaries cites Joseph Campbell as an influence on the show.

[GregX]

The Generation One cartoon is not the definitive "Transformers." Hardly.

If any "Transformers" can be called definitive, it would have to be Simon Furman's Transformers comic books. He is the one that established many of the rules of that universe. He is the one that created the definitive origin of the Transformers. Primus and Unicron come back again and again, and meanwhile, where are the Quintessons?

To quote Larry DiTilio when asked about them: "There are no CENSORED Quintessons." :D

"Beast Wars" took much more influence from Simon Furman than it ever did from the cartoon. It also created the concept of the spark, which has stuck around in far more incarnations than Vector Sigma.

I like "Transformers" a lot. But I am not fond of the old cartoon... okay, I liked parts of the third season (they finally got story editors that season). I love Furman. I love "Beast Wars," and I love "Animated."

[AlgeaX]

So was Donald F. Glut, who Greg quoted. Glut didn't even write as many episodes as Wise. And Flint Dille, the man behind the movie and season 2, WAS a producer and in his commentaries cites Joseph Campbell as an influence on the show.

Campbell as interpreted by Lucas perhaps, if we're going to compare Transformers to Batman then the G1 was the Adam West of the franchise, hugely influential on the public consciousness but also ridiculous as heck.

Personally I think the G1 show is a lot of fun in a So Bad it's Good kind of way but let's not pretend it's the Iliad.

[ABrown]

Everyone's opinion of what the "definitive" version is, is going to differ from person to person. One person might consider the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon to be the definitive. Some people consider the original Transformers cartoon to be the definitive one. For me, Batman:TAS was the definitive one.

[Wolf Boy2]

Greg, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant. I only mean that the G1 show was "definitive" in terms of voice acting and vague story structure. And Peter Cullen, the undisputed Kevin Conroy of Transformers.


If any "Transformers" can be called definitive, it would have to be Simon Furman's Transformers comic books. He is the one that established many of the rules of that universe. He is the one that created the definitive origin of the Transformers.
I'm talking about cartoons, though. If you want to bring comics into the equation, than BTAS isn't the definitive Batman by a LONG SHOT (that honor would go to Finger/Kane, O'Neil/Adams, Moore, Miller and other comic creators).


Primus and Unicron come back again and again, and meanwhile, where are the Quintessons?
Does Alpha Q in Energon count? Also, Simon Furman used Quintessons in "Space Pirates." For that matter, the comic series "GI Joe vs. The Transformers" used the Quintesson origin story. Quints have also appeared in Botcon exclusive comics. ;)


"Beast Wars" took much more influence from Simon Furman than it ever did from the cartoon. It also created the concept of the spark, which has stuck around in far more incarnations than Vector Sigma.
Except that it directly referenced cartoon events (Unicron, Starscream's death in the Movie) which were retconned out of Furman's comic series by the events of "Time Wars", thus making Beast Wars part of the cartoon continuity. Beast Machines took this a step further, adding the Plasma Energy Chamber and Vector Sigma.


I like "Transformers" a lot. But I am not fond of the old cartoon... okay, I liked parts of the third season (they finally got story editors that season). I love Furman. I love "Beast Wars," and I love "Animated."
I agree that the comics are superior, and I am a BW fan (it's the reason I got into Transformers in the first place). But when drawing comparisons to the DCAU, I think Beast Wars more roughly corresponds to Batman Beyond than to BTAS.

[Joker1238]

Whether the creators cared about the project is immaterial. But those quotes do not represent the whole of TF writers anyway. Flint Dille and David Wise (while admittedly not as dedicated as the BTAS or TB crews) viewed the series as more than a toy commercial. And it's not surprising that David Wise, who described the show as "epochal and epic" wrote much better scripts than Donald F. Glut, whom you quoted. Just because some of the producers were hacks doesn't mean that all of them were.

For that matter, BTAS had some crew members in the beginning who didn't really give a fig about quality, and it showed in some very infamous episodes. Both series were plagued by Akom animation and the need to reach syndication count quickly.

Superfriends isn't the "definitive" Batman in terms of story continuity, visual style or voice acting. All current DC animation is compared to BTAS, as all current TF is compared to G1.

Though, this reminds me of one thing TB really had over BTAS: consistent animation quality. No cell dirt or mushy models or Akom horror to be found. Granted, this is inherent in any comparison of 2000s animation to 1990s animation and thus a low qualifier for TB. But it's still worth mentioning.


Thats not a fair comparsion, we are talking about a show done mostly by computers vs hand drawn cells, of couse hand drawn cells are going to be off in the hand drawn era.

[Wonderwall]

Thats not a fair comparsion, we are talking about a show done mostly by computers vs hand drawn cells, of couse hand drawn cells are going to be off in the hand drawn era.

If you're implying that The Batman was done mostly by computers then that is an exaggeration. The coloring, editing and some CGI elements are done on computer but it's still mostly hand drawn painstakingly by animators. I think it's more consistent because they have fewer episodes to animate than they did back in the day and I think the studios over seas have gotten better than in the early 90s.

[johnnybvo]

I think I'm less hostile towards it now that I admit to being back in the day. What can I say? This new series got the Templeton/Burchett Batman Adventures comic series cancelled (albeit indirectly) and that was the final source for new B:TAS stories. I still miss it.


That was a crime against humanity. I wish more than anything that that series was allowed to go on, or at least let Templeton finish up what he was working on.

[lostinseganet]

I remember part of the reason teen titans was cancellation was they did not want two robins shown at the same time. I liked that show.

[Bloody Marquis]

I remember part of the reason teen titans was cancellation was they did not want two robins shown at the same time. I liked that show.
I don't remember that. On the contrary, I heard that The Batman was banned from using Robin until TT had ended.

[seryass]

If you're implying that The Batman was done mostly by computers then that is an exaggeration. The coloring, editing and some CGI elements are done on computer but it's still mostly hand drawn painstakingly by animators. I think it's more consistent because they have fewer episodes to animate than they did back in the day and I think the studios over seas have gotten better than in the early 90s.

That's still beside the point though. Yes the animation might be hand drawn but it is then scanned and can be altered on a computer to look better hence the lack of dirt etc.

The technology of nowadays was simply not around back then or if it were they were more basic. The programs used would have been a lot inferior which ties in with your studios theory. Naturally they can be better now because they have the better technology to work with so it is unfair to compare the two shows.

If you were going to compare the animation quality of The Batman to another show then Batman Beyond or more likely one of the series that aired in the 00's would be a lot more fair.

[klammed]

If you were going to compare the animation quality of The Batman to another show then Batman Beyond or more likely one of the series that aired in the 00's would be a lot more fair.

Or JLU, really. Perhaps that was one of the reasons why BTAS is still more talked about? Because the DCAU was still in existence when The Batman came out, there was something right there with a legacy of over a decade to compare it to? This is of course, ignoring any sort of reruns of previous DCAU series.