The Idea of Batman BEFORE Superman

[SaBaWoJuLe]

As a comic book fan, and a Superman fan, I love the idea of Superman being the first, either the first supehero period or the first modern superhero. Alex Ross also loves it, as pointed out in one interview. But, in the DCAU, and then again in the TB universe, Superman isn't the first superhero, modern or not. In the DCAU continuity he isn't because of the older heroes, and in the TB continuity he isn't because because "he came in late". But in both DCAU and TB, the hero before Superman is the same guy: Batman. This is something I dislike, maybe even really dislike, because it makes Batman more of like as THE superhero period, and given the first title from Superman to him. Even Dwayne McDuffie on Justice League of America (Vol. 2) has been criticizied by at times making Batman a "Bat-God" in the stories.

I don't like this because Superman is THE first superhero, he is the reason why other superheroes exist, and is the main inspiration overall. Batman isn't that. Yes, he is an idea of a pulp hero which was the case before the "super" hero (starting with Superman), but everything Superman is isn't Batman (the DCAU version, whereas something like the DCU or even the movies could be debatable).

Does anyone else feel like this? I mean maybe Brcue Timm could've gone a different way with STAS and either have the origin story and have Superman active and mention he was around longer than Batman (BTAS), or have the origin but start over with Batman so STAS-JLU wasn't canon with BTAS. But beyond that, the idea/concept of Batman BEFORE Superman, when it is Superman and Batman; thoughts?

[theRedDeath]

For one thing, in the comic continuity Superman ISN'T the first "superhero" either. Most of the members of the JSA and co. came before him.

Anyway, do we really KNOW that Superman's debut at the start of S:TAS is after Batman's debut in "Mask of the Phantasm"? Just because S:TAS was produced after B:TAS doesn't necessarily mean it has to take place after it chronologically.

S:TAS could conceivably take place over a long period of time, with it starting before B:TAS and meeting up with it in time for "Word's Finest". I'm not saying I believe this, and I acknowledge it's much easier to just assume B:TAS came first, but i'm just pointing out that it's not absolutely certain.

Same for TB. Just because we only saw Superman in the last season of TB doesn't mean he wasn't active before the start of TB.

---

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I'm with you. :D Superman should have more of a pioneer-like presence for Superheroes. I let it slide a bit in DCAU, because it's hard to install Superman into the shared universe retroactively, and really, it was BTAS that pioneered the way for the greater DCAU (though it was STAS that really paved the way for the metas to come to prominence). As a result, Supes lost a bit of his alpha dog status, even though JLU went to some extremes to restore it.

As for an in continuity explanation that Batman came first, I think in STAS they explain that when Superman was starting his career, there were already rumors of Batman having spread all the way to Smallville. I'm not positive, but that idea keeps nagging in my head.

[Wonderwall]

Its not a big deal. BTAS was just produced first so it just fit better for him to I guess be just before Supes. In Last Son of Krypton Martha has a scrapbook since Clark left Smallville, presumably after high school, doing amazing feats around the world. So he might have started at the same time. But like I stated in my sentence, it's not really a big deal.

[Dusty]

As a comic book fan, and a Superman fan, I love the idea of Superman being the first, either the first supehero period or the first modern superhero. Alex Ross also loves it, as pointed out in one interview. But, in the DCAU, and then again in the TB universe, Superman isn't the first superhero, modern or not. In the DCAU continuity he isn't because of the older heroes, and in the TB continuity he isn't because because "he came in late". But in both DCAU and TB, the hero before Superman is the same guy: Batman. This is something I dislike, maybe even really dislike, because it makes Batman more of like as THE superhero period, and given the first title from Superman to him. Even Dwayne McDuffie on Justice League of America (Vol. 2) has been criticizied by at times making Batman a "Bat-God" in the stories.

I don't like this because Superman is THE first superhero, he is the reason why other superheroes exist, and is the main inspiration overall. Batman isn't that. Yes, he is an idea of a pulp hero which was the case before the "super" hero (starting with Superman), but everything Superman is isn't Batman (the DCAU version, whereas something like the DCU or even the movies could be debatable).

Does anyone else feel like this? I mean maybe Brcue Timm could've gone a different way with STAS and either have the origin story and have Superman active and mention he was around longer than Batman (BTAS), or have the origin but start over with Batman so STAS-JLU wasn't canon with BTAS. But beyond that, the idea/concept of Batman BEFORE Superman, when it is Superman and Batman; thoughts?

I agree, Superman was and always will be the "First" Superhero in my book, I didn't/don't like the crossover episodes of STAS and TNBA very much, In "Worlds Finest" Batman talked to him like he was just some rookie, I especially hated his "You're Learning" comment. IMO BT and Co. favored Bats a little too much in the DCAU, it seemed like they were trying to make Batman look like the "Teacher" and Superman the "Student," don't get me wrong I love Batman just about as much as I do Superman, and BT and Co. did a wonderfull job on their shows, but IMO they did handle Batman's interaction with other heroes a bit poorly, it wasn't a huge deal but it did/does bother a little, on The Batman cartoon where they had Supes as a guest star, I feel they handled him kinda poorly there too. Now though, back to the DCAU, when JL/JLU came around they did a better job with character interaction, and never really went too deep into the characters origins, I think in season 2 of JL, "Hereafter" talked a little about how Superman was an inspiration to many heroes, and it was done pretty well, (but I may be wrong on what they actually said, it has been a long time since I've seen that episode,)


D.


(Note: All comments posted by user Dusty, are only his opinions and personal views, and were in no way meant to intentionally cause problems or insult anyone. If you feel his comments were offensive or inappropriate, please contact him by PM (Private Message,) Email (Electronic Mail,) or contact the appointed Message Forum Moderator, thank-you.)

[AlgeaX]

As for an in continuity explanation that Batman came first, I think in STAS they explain that when Superman was starting his career, there were already rumors of Batman having spread all the way to Smallville. I'm not positive, but that idea keeps nagging in my head.

Marth Kent: I don't want anyone thinking you're like that nut in Gotham City.


While Superman might have been the founding father of the superhero genre in comicbookdom, as far as animation goes it was B:TAS that was the real pioneer and I don't just mean for the DCAU. Without B:TAS we might not have had Gargoyles, Beast Wars or The Spectacular Spider-Man as we know them today.

B:TAS revolutionised the way people think about TV animation. It proved that action cartoons could be about more then giant robots beating the crap out of each other while trading bad puns. It ushered in a new age of animation drama.

You can't really Criticise Batman's status as the first DCAU superhero because frankly, he earned it.

[danreyes1]

It never bothered me. Batman is more driven, shall we say, than Superman. Superman helps because he wants to; Batman because he needs to. It makes sense, to me, that Batman would start his masked hero career as soon as he knows he's ready.

It is also mere happenstance; Let's face it, Batman is the more popular hero, so he gets more cartoons to himself. Therefor more heroes appearing later in whichever continuity in the show just tends to happen.

[Blackstar]

It never bothered me. Batman is more driven, shall we say, than Superman. Superman helps because he wants to; Batman because he needs to. It makes sense, to me, that Batman would start his masked hero career as soon as he knows he's ready.

It is also mere happenstance; Let's face it, Batman is the more popular hero, so he gets more cartoons to himself. Therefor more heroes appearing later in whichever continuity in the show just tends to happen.

Well, the notion that Batman is "the more popular hero" is debatable, honestly. Sure, Bats is more popular now, but that popularity has ebbed and flowed over the past 3 decades. Batman only got an animated series first because Tim Burton directed a blockbuster hit movie based on Batman about a year or so before it, which sparked a renewed interest in Batman in general. if a highly sussessful Superman movie had happened around that time, things would have turned out differently.

As for DCAU Bats being established as "The Premiere Hero", it makes sense when one considers that Batman had the first DCAU series. And thankfully, Superman regained his "poster boy" status by the time of JL/JLU.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

I'm a huge Batman fan, but I agree, Superman should normally come first.

But, oh well, Batman has obviously been the more popular and marketable character in the last maybe 30 or so years, so if a darker or more reality-grounded character like Batman can make ignorant people take a look at superheroes, then hopefully it'll help them to go out further into the realm of fantasy and accept a character like Superman.

Batman is the gateway drug to superhero exposure.

I think the success of The Dark Knight movie is what might give some audience members who wouldn't have normally went to see the upcoming Watchman movie the incentive to actually go out and see it now.

[The New Titans]

Read Batman: Year One, and there is a line in part four that establishes that Superman has existed since before Bats appeared.

I do think animation should follow this, and yes, Batman isn't nessecarily a Bat-God, but he has got the fourth-highest grossing film ever made. Superman doesn't have that.

[tb4000]

http://videogamecentral.com/gamersvoice/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dcumkboxart.png


Where is Superman on the boxart?

[Spideyzilla]

Its not a big deal. BTAS was just produced first so it just fit better for him to I guess be just before Supes. In Last Son of Krypton Martha has a scrapbook since Clark left Smallville, presumably after high school, doing amazing feats around the world. So he might have started at the same time. But like I stated in my sentence, it's not really a big deal.

In that arc, Clark wonders if he should tell how he became Superman, and she says "I don't want people thinking you're like that nut in Gotham City." Batman came first.

[ABrown]

Without B:TAS we might not have had Beast Wars

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. The only show that was essential for Beast Wars to have taken place is the original Transformers cartoon. I really never thought that BTAS had any influence on Beast Wars.

But I'm ok with Batman getting shows and appearances before Superman. Superman may be the greatest superhero ever, but Batman is the coolest superhero ever.

[Bloody Marquis]

http://videogamecentral.com/gamersvoice/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dcumkboxart.png


Where is Superman on the boxart?He's the one facing Subzero. :shrug:

[creativerealms]

If I'm not mistaken even in the mainstream DC universe there were heroes active before Superman. it's that he was the first that makes him special since I'm quite sure he's never depicted as the first Super hero. It's his actions mixed with his presence and how he surpased everyone that came before him that truely made him an icon.

[Racattack!Force]

http://videogamecentral.com/gamersvoice/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dcumkboxart.png


Where is Superman on the boxart?He's in the back. And if you are talking about the superhero genre as a whole, then Mandrake the Magician (http://www.toonopedia.com/mandrake.htm) was the first superhero, not Supes.

[Silverstar]

But I'm ok with Batman getting shows and appearances before Superman. Superman may be the greatest superhero ever, but Batman is the coolest superhero ever.

Wrong. The coolest superhero ever is Martian Manhunter. :D

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/54/76083-149782-martian-manhunter_large.jpg

And while I don't dislike Bats, I've always thought Supes was much cooler.

But in terms of the DCAU, Batman got the first show, so for those purposes we can say that he came first. Not that it matters who came first, it's not a race.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

He's in the back. And if you are talking about the superhero genre as a whole, then Mandrake the Magician (http://www.toonopedia.com/mandrake.htm) was the first superhero, not Supes.

And I believe Lee Falk's The Phantom was actually the first "costumed" superhero.

[AlgeaX]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. The only show that was essential for Beast Wars to have taken place is the original Transformers cartoon. I really never thought that BTAS had any influence on Beast Wars.

But B:TAS practically invented the genre of action drama catoons, without it to pave the way Beast Wars might have ended up nothing more then a glorified toy commercial like the G1 toon.

[Racattack!Force]

And I believe Lee Falk's The Phantom was actually the first "costumed" superhero.Yep, pretty much.

[Wolf Boy2]

But B:TAS practically invented the genre of action drama catoons, without it to pave the way Beast Wars might have ended up nothing more then a glorified toy commercial like the G1 toon.
The producers of Beast Wars (Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward) worked on "He-Man and the Masters of Universe" alongside future DCAU greats like Timm and Dini. I'm sure they were well aware of the new creative freedoms that their former He-Man associates had opened up with BTAS. If Greg Weisman's comments on the Ask Greg board are any evidence, BTAS was a big deal among animation guys. I doubt very seriously that the Beast Wars producers were oblivious to BTAS. And even if they were, BTAS showed the sponsers that dramatic action shows could be financially beneficial.

Back to topic, there is really no way for Superman to be "first" in a modern context without eliminating the Justice Society and other WWII era characters who remain as fixtures in that time. If you want that kind of Superman, you can only find him in period contexts like "DC: The New Frontier" or TV/movie universes where he is the only superhero at all.

[SaBaWoJuLe]

I'm only referring toward the characters of Batman and Superman, one before the other compared to the "norm", not the shows.

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I actually like in the DCAU that Batman came first, think it works better for that. Martha Kent says the line "I dont want you running around like that nut in Gotham City" in the LSOK episodes, just to prove that Bats did. Although I think its evident that Timm & Co do prefer Batman I dont think they do Superman a disservice at all, Terry McGinnis in the Call even says to Bruce that Superman is the greatest hero of all-time so he is established as an example even godlike hero of sorts to all other heroes. I also think JL/JLU was more Supermans show than Batman's too.

But in The Batman continuity I wasnt aware Batman came first is it even mentioned?

[DisneyBoy]

I'm not sure who I really think came first. Clark is more youthful genetically speaking, so it doesn't really matter when he shows up. Bruce, though, has to spend years training...so I think seeing him in B:TAS first kinda works, because there's just less to say about Clark's early career. It doesn't take away from him to be the second on the scene...he's still SUPERMAN. Bruce, on the other hand, might look like a copy cat if he pops up two years after Supes has been saving lives.

Let the mortal go first I say.

[Dayspring]

I'm not sure who I really think came first. Clark is more youthful genetically speaking, so it doesn't really matter when he shows up. Bruce, though, has to spend years training...so I think seeing him in B:TAS first kinda works, because there's just less to say about Clark's early career. It doesn't take away from him to be the second on the scene...he's still SUPERMAN. Bruce, on the other hand, might look like a copy cat if he pops up two years after Supes has been saving lives.

Let the mortal go first I say.
I completely agree. Plus for all we know they became heroes at the same time in the DCAU. The "nut in Gotham" comment implies that, at the time, Batman still has vigilante status instead of hero-status. That would be the case for the beginning of Batman's career.

[The Weed Of Cri]

He's in the back. And if you are talking about the superhero genre as a whole, then Mandrake the Magician (http://www.toonopedia.com/mandrake.htm) was the first superhero, not Supes.

And Superman isn't even the first DC Comics superhero. The Crimson Avenger preceded him by several months.

[Toddman]

And Superman isn't even the first DC Comics superhero. The Crimson Avenger preceded him by several months.

That's not accurate.

Superman first appeared in Action Comics #1 dated June, 1938. The Crimson Avenger debuted in Detective Comics #20 dated October, 1938. The reverse is actually true.:)


Toddman

[Primal Slayer]

While Superman might have been the first superhero to be published, he is not the same Superman from way back then. Im fine with him not being the first or any of that. He still gets plenty of love, stories, and always saves the day in major events. Should each Superheros importance be determined by who appeared before who?

And if DC wanted to him THE Superhero, then they need to age him and redo his origin. If they dont want to do that, then I am fine with his current standing in the comics and in the DCAU.

[Anthonynotes]

From 1938 until 1985-86's "Crisis on Infinite Earths" (and the subsequent Byrne revamp in '86), Superman was the first super-powered superhero on Earth-2 (where he appeared in 1938, and was a founding member of the Justice Society a few years later alongside Batman, Alan Scott-GL, Jay Garrick-Flash, etc., as seen in one of my favorite comics, the JSA's origin), and on Earth-1 (when he debuted as Superboy perpetually-circa-"20 years ago", when Clark was in grade school). On Earth-2, Batman debuted a year after Supes (per his 1939 first comic appearance), while on Earth-1... things seem unclear, but I'd assume (per timeline issues with Robin and Earth-1's compressed-timeline overall) that Batman debuted while Clark was late in college (around the time Superboy became Superman).

Post-Crisis, with no parallel Earths and all 87 trillion heroes forced to coexist on the same Earth/same timeline (and no Golden Age Superman), things were rewritten so that the JSA (sans a Superman) were around in the 40s, then Superman (decades later) became the "first superhero of the modern age".

In the DCAU, they just went along as it was, thus Bats was already around when Superman came along (see Ma Kent's remarks).

The above said, I never liked the idea of Supes not being the world's first hero either. Granted, part of it comes from never liking the elimination of parallel Earths (thus making Supes-as-first impossible, among a whole host of other dubious post-Crisis changes) or Byrne's Superman revamp post-Crisis in the first place. Still, Superman coming in *second* at least seems to not hurt things much for his stature among the DCAU public... ;-)

-B.

[Alph]

It doesn't really make much sense for Superman to be the first superhero chronologically. It's not like people just started getting superpowers after he showed up. I'd imagine that people must have been getting superpowers from random stuff all throughout history. It wouldn't make much sense if none of those people used their powers for good until after Superman showed up.

Now, should Superman be the first hero that we, the audience, are exposed to? I'm divided on this issue.

If you ask me, Superman coming after Batman made his feats seem that much more impressive (which is more important in the DCAU than anywhere else because of how Superman was considerably weakened). Whereas Batman coming after Superman would probably make Batman seem...somewhat unimpressive.

However, Superman is the definitive superhero. Batman is his own thing. More superheroes can easily branch off of Superman than Batman (which is why Superman had all those crossovers in STAS). It makes sense for him to go first.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way. You get good results either way, but lose something else at the same time.

[Aldrius]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. The only show that was essential for Beast Wars to have taken place is the original Transformers cartoon. I really never thought that BTAS had any influence on Beast Wars.

And I'd say that more important than both Transformers and B:TAS in regards to Beast Wars' genesis is Reboot.

And that was in production before B:TAS was even greenlit. (Albeit in a very different form...)

Er... though regardless B:TAS was a VERY big deal.

And I don't really see Batman as a 'superhero' perse, so him coming before Superman doesn't bother me so much. Batman was the first person to dress up in a costume, but Superman was the first guy to give the people something to look up to and admire. (The stuff in the crossover is mostly Batman teaching Superman about what Batman does best: intimidation and cunning.)

[Wolf Boy2]

I like the idea of Superman being an older hero from 1938, interacting with the modern JLA cast. That's awesome. I loved how he was presented in Batman Beyond.

An older Superman would be more of a wise sage and a fit leader to the JLA. Hmmm, imagine a modern Batman (like the Nolanverse Batman) who loosely patterned himself after the Superman. A Batman who respects and reveres Superman sounds better than a Jerky Jesus who makes snide remarks at the Man of Steel. This sounds cool to me.

EDIT: Actually, Superman kind of WAS first.

Remember Batman didn't travel back to WWII in "The Savage Time." But Superman was seen publicly smashing Nazis and helping the allies at D-Day. Granted, the other Leaguers were with him. But Superman no doubt stood out and made the biggest impression.

This is how I deal with Lois's "and I'm Wonder Woman" remark which clashes with JL continuity. After the JL altered history, Superman and Wonder Woman were famous historical icons. Even though Diana had not yet debuted in the modern timeline, Lois knew about her from history and popular lore. However Superman's origin in "The Last Son of Krypton" occured before the time-tampering, in the original timeline where the Allies won the battle at Normandy.

Also, the Spy Smasher flashback in "Patriot Act" shows that there were costumed adventurers at least 50 years before Batman or Superman put on the tights.

Behold, my uber-geekness. :D

[Dusty]

EDIT: Actually, Superman kind of WAS first.

Remember Batman didn't travel back to WWII in "The Savage Time." But Superman was seen publicly smashing Nazis and helping the allies at D-Day. Granted, the other Leaguers were with him. But Superman no doubt stood out and made the biggest impression.

This is how I deal with Lois's "and I'm Wonder Woman" remark which clashes with JL continuity. After the JL altered history, Superman and Wonder Woman were famous historical icons. Even though Diana had not yet debuted in the modern timeline, Lois knew about her from history and popular lore. However Superman's origin in "The Last Son of Krypton" occured before the time-tampering, in the original timeline where the Allies won the battle at Normandy.

Also, the Spy Smasher flashback in "Patriot Act" shows that there were costumed adventurers at least 50 years before Batman or Superman put on the tights.

Behold, my uber-geekness. :D
Ha ha, I love that, great thinking my friend, I'll accept that explanation, :)


D.


(Note: All comments posted by user Dusty, are only his opinions and personal views, and were in no way meant to intentionally cause problems or insult anyone. If you feel his comments were offensive or inappropriate, please contact him by PM (Private Message,) Email (Electronic Mail,) or contact the appointed Message Forum Moderator, thank-you.)

[Garada]

As has been pointed out in this thread already, within the DCAU 'continuity' Superman is NOT the first superhero. There is already an older generation, as made clear by guys like Wildcat, Easy Co. and the Blackhawks.

I just want to commend WolfBoy on pointing out the fact that due to the events of The Savage Time and Patriot Act, the public consciousness might have been aware of superheroes since the 1940s. I LOVE that there is an unseen JSA or at least other WWII era heroes.

As far as I'm concerned, the events of BTAS and STAS happened roughly concurrently up until the time that they first met in World's Finest. After that, it's not written anywhere that subsequently televised 'solo' adventures were in strictly chronological order. It is easy to imagine that episodes of BTAS and STAS happened either BEFORE the events of World's Finest or DURING the events of Justice League. There's no reason that the STAS episode 'Unity' for example, could have happened at any time during the DCAU timeline after Kara was introduced, up to the point that she left 'now'. Some fans place Mystery of the Batwoman in the JL period. I just don't see a problem.

Try not to worry about it too much, it's just cartoons / comics! ;)
If you try too hard to make it all fit together, your head will explode.

[Wag]

Don't forget in the DCU there are also planets/Multiverses that exist like "Universe-S" where Superboy came from which don't exist in any other continuity. So while we don't discuss Superboy much here, he has had a place over the years in DC continuity. (Not the new Legion's animated version of him).

It's unfortunate "Superboy" was brought back in the new Legion series as we'll probably never get a true "Superboy Animated Series" now.

[Dayspring]

It's unfortunate "Superboy" was brought back in the new Legion series as we'll probably never get a true "Superboy Animated Series" now.
Not necessarily. A Superboy Animated Series could be the perfect answer to Sensational Spider-Man. By being animated, it could be what Smallville failed to be. Just make "SAS" a different incarnation than LSOH. Hell, with good writing it could arguably even be the Clark Kent from STAS prior to when he leaves Smallvile.


Not that Smallville is a failure (at least not overall), but instead of going the drama route, a cartoon Superboy

[Toddman]

Not necessarily. A Superboy Animated Series could be the perfect answer to Sensational Spider-Man. By being animated, it could be what Smallville failed to be. Just make "SAS" a different incarnation than LSOH. Hell, with good writing it could arguably even be the Clark Kent from STAS prior to when he leaves Smallvile.


Not that Smallville is a failure (at least not overall), but instead of going the drama route, a cartoon Superboy

Nothing like that is going to happening for awhile until the character's legal entanglements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy#Legal_status) are settled.

Anyway, as far as the first super-hero in the DCAU goes... if a mask, cape and funny name are the chief requirements for the traits of a super-hero, then I say that title clearly belongs to El Diablo.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/futurethingpt1/26.jpg


Toddman

[SaBaWoJuLe]

Nothing like that is going to happening for awhile until the character's legal entanglements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy#Legal_status) are settled.

If you remember, we are getting a Superman/Batman DTV soon following Green Lantern. So that ain't stopping another Superman movie.

[Dayspring]

If you remember, we are getting a Superman/Batman DTV soon following Green Lantern. So that ain't stopping another Superman movie.
He's referring to the name Superboy, specifically, but as pointed out in that very wiki article, the Superboy legal dillemma was resolved last year, since at least June. SB-Prime is referred to as "Superboy-Prime" and "Superboy" again, as opposed to "Superman-Prime" and "the Clark Kent/Kal-El of Earth-Prime."

But yeah, I don't see SAS series anytime soon, either. I am secretly wondering if kids shows (The Batman, Teen Titans, DCAU) will get DTVs released independently of the DCU flicks, though.

[Wag]

He's referring to the name Superboy, specifically, but as pointed out in that very wiki article, the Superboy legal dillemma was resolved last year, since at least June. SB-Prime is referred to as "Superboy-Prime" and "Superboy" again, as opposed to "Superman-Prime" and "the Clark Kent/Kal-El of Earth-Prime." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy#Alternate_versions_of_Superboy

Correct. The Superboy of Earth-Prime much like Smallville was friends with young Lex Luthor up until a certain point. Ah, it starts getting confusing now and this is where the legal issues come into play.

The Wikipedia article sums it up quite nicely. To put it bluntly, the whole "Superboy" character is a mess. They need another "Crisis" just to take care of the one character.:shrug:

[Toddman]

He's referring to the name Superboy, specifically, but as pointed out in that very wiki article, the Superboy legal dillemma was resolved last year, since at least June. SB-Prime is referred to as "Superboy-Prime" and "Superboy" again, as opposed to "Superman-Prime" and "the Clark Kent/Kal-El of Earth-Prime."


So far the character has only been referred to as Superboy-Prime, never simply Superboy. I suppose the legal issue might indeed be settled, but I don't believe DC/WB own the right to use the character "Superboy" if he's depicted in his original form, ie "Superman when he was a boy."

The lack of true ownership seems apparent (and directly affects your idea for a Superboy animated series) when you note that none of the live-action Superboy TV series has been released on DVD past season 1, and the Superboy cartoon from the 60's is still unavailable on DVD.


Toddman

[NightwingAngelo]

Let's not forget that Bruce and Clark are pretty close to the same age in the DCAU, yet Superman started performing feats to help people years before he even became Superman. (same goes for Bruce in this continuity, but much closer to the time when he became Batman than Clark becoming Superman).

While Clark Kent was rescuing people and saving lives as a teenager, Bruce Wayne was still training overseas. He was already a hero, just without the costume. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers took this into account.

[Fool's Gil]

It's not really a big deal. If I remember my facts correctly, BTAS was made to cash in on Tim Burton's Batman films, so it's not really anyone trying to usurp Superman's throne. And even my facts are wrong, it's still not a big deal. Batman then (Maybe not as much now because of the Justice League) was more fun to watch because of the mystery and all the weirdness of how they showed Gotham and how he dealt with it. Superman was cool when he got his own series, but Batman was more appealing to me as a child.

[potogold]

All always thought Batman was first when I was a little kid, and Superman was second. Thats because I felt Bruce Wayne is the ideal human hero and moral pioneer, not Clark Kent aka Alien Overlord. Bruce to me may be the greatest superhero ever, because he relies on nothing but brains, brawn, raw skill and tatics to take his enemies down but suffers like the rest of us. Clark is just perfect, he can do anything and has no problems against people Batman fights. But I give credit to Supes because he's the greastest fantasy to tell that expands the who DC universe and he's the first and last pinnicle of super heroes ever. But Bruce Wayne will always be the greastest human hero ever.

[suss2it]

All always thought Batman was first when I was a little kid, and Superman was second. Thats because I felt Bruce Wayne is the ideal human hero and moral pioneer, not Clark Kent aka Alien Overlord. Bruce to me may be the greatest superhero ever, because he relies on nothing but brains, brawn, raw skill and tatics to take his enemies down but suffers like the rest of us.Why does everyone always leave out the fact that he's a billionaire?

[Blackstar]

Why does everyone always leave out the fact that he's a billionaire?

Exactly. Batfans always claim that Batman is such a great hero because he's "just a regular guy". They always conveniently forget that Bruce has seemingly unlimited resources and has learned mad skills from his travels all over the globe, none of which would have been possible were it not for the billions of dollars that he has at his disposal.

I like and can appreciate the merits of both heroes, but if having a plurality of super powers is Superman's crutch, then having unlimited money is Batman's.

[Wonderwall]

All always thought Batman was first when I was a little kid, and Superman was second. Thats because I felt Bruce Wayne is the ideal human hero and moral pioneer, not Clark Kent aka Alien Overlord. Bruce to me may be the greatest superhero ever, because he relies on nothing but brains, brawn, raw skill and tatics to take his enemies down but suffers like the rest of us. Clark is just perfect, he can do anything and has no problems against people Batman fights. But I give credit to Supes because he's the greastest fantasy to tell that expands the who DC universe and he's the first and last pinnicle of super heroes ever. But Bruce Wayne will always be the greastest human hero ever.

Those are some articulate thoughts for a little kid.

[Dayspring]

So far the character has only been referred to as Superboy-Prime, never simply Superboy. I suppose the legal issue might indeed be settled, but I don't believe DC/WB own the right to use the character "Superboy" if he's depicted in his original form, ie "Superman when he was a boy."

The lack of true ownership seems apparent (and directly affects your idea for a Superboy animated series) when you note that none of the live-action Superboy TV series has been released on DVD past season 1, and the Superboy cartoon from the 60's is still unavailable on DVD.


ToddmanIn Legion of 3 Worlds part 1, he's referred to as "Superboy" by people who think he's Earth-1 SB. SB-Prime kills them and says "I'm not Superboy." So yeah, he's not being called SB by people in the know, but regardless, the word "Superboy" was used twice in that issue alone.

[Alph]

Exactly. Batfans always claim that Batman is such a great hero because he's "just a regular guy". They always conveniently forget that Bruce has seemingly unlimited resources and has learned mad skills from his travels all over the globe, none of which would have been possible were it not for the billions of dollars that he has at his disposal.

I like and can appreciate the merits of both heroes, but if having a plurality of super powers is Superman's crutch, then having unlimited money is Batman's.

Yeah. If you want a hero with no crutches, you need to get someone like Dan Turpin or Commissioner Gordon. No powers and a normal paycheck, with just a standard issue weapon and a cops level of training. Yet they put their lives on the line all the time. But no one ever gives them any credit.

[Anthonynotes]

>>
Don't forget in the DCU there are also planets/Multiverses that exist like "Universe-S" where Superboy came from which don't exist in any other continuity. So while we don't discuss Superboy much here, he has had a place over the years in DC continuity. (Not the new Legion's animated version of him).

It's unfortunate "Superboy" was brought back in the new Legion series as we'll probably never get a true "Superboy Animated Series" now.<<

Going by the old pre-Crisis multiverse, Superboy was actually from Earth-1 (not Earth-S---home of the Marvel Family), as the world's first superpowered hero, though as I noted in a Batman: Brave and the Bold episode post, Earth-1 *did* have its own Wildcat, who apparently operated before or even during Superboy's era. At any rate, Wildcat on Earth-1, like in current DCU continuity, definitely pre-dated Batman, per the various Batman-Wildcat 70s teamup stories.

No idea what the current comics' "52 Earths only" setup is in that regard for alternate Superboys, besides apparently wasting an arbitrarily-limited number of Earths on stupid Elseworlds stories all of six people liked. :-p

And as noted above, we've had Superboy cartoons/live-action shows before; this poster's earliest memories of Supes include watching the 60s Filmation Superboy cartoons (in reruns, not first-run...not *that* old ;-) ).

-B.

[Nightwing]

Clearly quotes like Martha Kent's from Superman's first three part episode only show an EXISTENCE of both heroes, and not an established order.

I say take it the way you want to take it, but my preferred outcome involves not glamorizing Batman, and not pushing Superman aside because "Batman has plans and strategy" or what have you.

If that's your opinion, NW, then what about SupermanTAS' "The Demon Reborn?" Well, hypothetical poster opinion, that crossover was fun but it wasn't that great. Perhaps multiple parts or a movie containing specific situations in the characters' lives would have better been able to establish reasons for the behavior, instead of just the episode's blunt presentation of "Superman Smash, Batman Think!"

BATMAN AM GOOD THINKER!

[Dayspring]

BATMAN AM GOOD THINKER!
KAL-EL CRUSH PUNY WAYNE! :P

Anyhoo, to play devil's advocate, "that nut in Gotham" might even be referring to a supervillain prior to Bruce becoming Batman.

[Silverstar]

KAL-EL CRUSH PUNY WAYNE! :P

Anyhoo, to play devil's advocate, "that nut in Gotham" might even be referring to a supervillain prior to Bruce becoming Batman.

Nah, it was definitely a reference to Bats. Keep in mind that Batman, in a sense, was responsible for many of the super-freaks in Gotham.

If Ma were referring to some villain, she would've mentioned him by name. The fact that she didn't made it obvious who she was talking about.

[AlgeaX]

Superman? Batman? Either way the Viking Prince had them both beat by at least a couple of centuries.

[Wag]

Superman? Batman? Either way the Viking Prince had them both beat by at least a couple of centuries.Yah? Merlin and Etrigan were around before...If you want to go that route, Shazam! was around even earlier, with the New Gods, Oans, etc, but we're only really focusing on DCU continuity, just Bats and Supes.

[cyde]

Sup can kick the B.M.'s butt anytime.

[kid rabbit]

superman may have been the first superhero but the reason they don't acknowledge that in the dcau is because they want superman younger
if he was the first superhero he'd be in his 50's
superman and batman are premitally in their 20's
hell they major recons like zero hour and crisis to make sure they stay in their 20's

[creativerealms]

Even if we just use modern heroes lesser heroes that did not make much of an impact like Wild Cat have been around continty wise before Batman and Superman who I always figure begin with in five years of each other.

Someone like Wildcat would have already been a hero a good 15-20 before Batman and Superman and he trains many of the newer heroes (Including batman)

Superman is more of the first big main hero, first none street level hero more or less. More of an icon then a myth so to speak. I never saw superman as the first, just as the first to make a huge impact.

[BigFatHairyDeal]

superman may have been the first superhero but the reason they don't acknowledge that in the dcau is because they want superman younger
if he was the first superhero he'd be in his 50's
superman and batman are premitally in their 20's
hell they major recons like zero hour and crisis to make sure they stay in their 20's

Well, Superman appears young even as his contemporaries get long in the tooth, so I don't think his age is a big deal.

[Silverstar]

Yah? Merlin and Etrigan were around before...If you want to go that route, Shazam! was around even earlier, with the New Gods, Oans, etc, but we're only really focusing on DCU continuity, just Bats and Supes.

Merlin, the New Gods and the Oans aren't superheroes though.


And Shazam the wizard who gave Billy Batson his powers, maybe, but Captain Marvel, no.

[kid rabbit]

oh I totally lost track of the original question why in the dcau batman came first before superman that's because batman TAS came out first
if you look at superman TAS they took a year one approach to superman
where in batman TAS batman's already been around for awhile and establish
he's seems to have fought the joker before because thers no first meeting episode for them

[Dayspring]

oh I totally lost track of the original question why in the dcau batman came first before superman that's because batman TAS came out first
if you look at superman TAS they took a year one approach to superman
where in batman TAS batman's already been around for awhile and establish
he's seems to have fought the joker before because thers no first meeting episode for them
I forgot where I read/heard this, but BTAS supposedly takes place 10 years into Batman's career (9 years for Robin). Batman would have faced off against Joker and Penguin for the first time somewhere in those 10 years off-screen.

[Toddman]

In Legion of 3 Worlds part 1, he's referred to as "Superboy" by people who think he's Earth-1 SB. SB-Prime kills them and says "I'm not Superboy." So yeah, he's not being called SB by people in the know, but regardless, the word "Superboy" was used twice in that issue alone.

Again, I'm not 100% certain how the legal status of the use of the Superboy character currently stands with DC, but my impression after reading Legion of Three Words was that because the character specifically said that he in fact was not Superboy, they were able to sidestep the issue.

To use a hypothetical example, it would be the same as a random character on the street identifying Daredevil as "Batman" within the pages of a Daredevil comic. I doubt there would be any legal repercussions for that happening in only one particular instance (especially if Daredevil were to say "I'm not Batman!"), but if Daredevil was continuously and repeatedly referred to as Batman throughout the rest of the issue, then DC would probably sue the pants off Marvel.

The fact that additional dialogue in LO3W was intentionally cut off at "Superb--!" a couple of times when referring to the Conner Kent/Superboy character, made me think "Superboy" was still basically off-limits to DC.



Someone wile Wildcat would have already been a Vigelanty(SP) a good 15-20 before Batman and Superman and he trains many of the newer heroes (Including batman)


It's possible that unlike the history of the character in the comics or TBATB, even though Ted Grant may have trained several heroes in the beginnings of their careers (perhaps even Batman), he may have only assumed his Wildcat identity after Batman debuted first.


I forgot where I read/heard this, but BTAS supposedly takes place 10 years into Batman's career (9 years for Robin). Batman would have faced off against Joker and Penguin for the first time somewhere in those 10 years off-screen.

In MOTP, Andrea Beaumont states that she's returning to Gotham City after ten years. Since we see that Wayne adopted the Batman disguise just after she and her father left town, we know that Batman has been active for ten years at the point the present day storyline in MOTP takes place.


Toddman

[Wag]

Merlin, the New Gods and the Oans aren't superheroes though.I would take umbridge on what your idea of "classic" superhero is. You have to remember Merlin fights evil, and so why wouldn't he be considered a superhero? The same goes for the New Gods?


And Shazam the wizard who gave Billy Batson his powers, maybe, but Captain Marvel, no.And as I understand it, Shazam did his stint as "superhero" long before passing the reigns to Seth Adam (Black Adam) and then taking it away from him and giving it to Billy.

[Dayspring]

To use a hypothetical example, it would be the same as a random character on the street identifying Daredevil as "Batman" within the pages of a Daredevil comic. I doubt there would be any legal repercussions for that happening in only one particular instance There COULD be. It's not "less illegal" if you only do it a bit. Either way, the writers stated at one of the Comicons that "Yes, we can say Superboy again."




In MOTP, Andrea Beaumont states that she's returning to Gotham City after ten years. Since we see that Wayne adopted the Batman disguise just after she and her father left town, we know that Batman has been active for ten years at the point the present day storyline in MOTP takes place.


Toddman
Oh, duh! MOTP! Thanks for reminding me.

[Toddman]

There COULD be. It's not "less illegal" if you only do it a bit. Either way, the writers stated at one of the Comicons that "Yes, we can say Superboy again."

Well my original point is that I don't think DC/WB is in any position to make a Superboy Animated Series solely on their own whim, regardless of how much or how little they can say "Superboy."

Toddman

[creativerealms]

I know Toddman but the whole basis of this topic is that Superman should be the first hero of this world like he is in the mainstream DC comics. Yet he's never or rarely concidered the first hero in the comics. The first world level, iconic hero maybe but there where always some minor or street level heroes that came before him.

Superman is the first of his kind when it came to heroes, and Batman is not the same kind of hero as Superman, he is more of a street level hero at it's most basic. One that can hang with the big boys and is concidered one of them but really is very different from the likes of Superman and his like. Different from the super powered or gifted in some way heroes.

He's just a normal guy with billions of dollars (And a company he can barrow equpment from) at his desposal to help him out.

[Toddman]

I know Toddman but the whole basis of this topic is that Superman should be the first hero of this world like he is in the mainstream DC comics. Yet he's never or rarely concidered the first hero in the comics. The first world level, iconic hero maybe but there where always some minor or street level heroes that came before him.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say in regards to my comment about Wildcat, but I have to say that you're statement about Superman being "never or rarely" considered the first hero in comics is actually just the opposite (assuming you're talking about the real world publication history of comics and not the fictional continuity within the comics).


Toddman

[creativerealms]

I have never heard the idea of Superman being the first modern hero in the DC universe time line before this topic and I have read comics most of my life. I have actually read Superman Comics dealing with him being Metropolis first Super Hero but other cities in the world having a vast history of super heroes.

[Goof Troop]

I have never heard the idea of Superman being the first modern hero in the DC universe time line before this topic and I have read comics most of my life. I have actually read Superman Comics dealing with him being Metropolis first Super Hero but other cities in the world having a vast history of super heroes.

Hasn't Superman traditionally always been depicted as the first hero in almost every comic book timeline, though? Before "Crisis on Infinite Earths" he was the first superhero to debut on Earth-2 and (as Superboy) the first superhero on Earth-1 also. Even in the current DC Comics he's presented as the one who ushered in the "modern age" of superheroes.

[Lucho]

Lets not forget the Gray Ghost who was a pioneer "Superhero" in the Animated universe. http://www.comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/18956_20080217001841_char.jpg At least he played one, before Batman & Superman existed.




Anyway, as far as the first "super-hero" in the DCAU goes... if a mask, cape and funny name are the chief requirements for the traits of a super-hero, then I say that title clearly belongs to El Diablo.

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/jlu/episodes/futurethingpt1/26.jpg


Toddman

Ha that's great, and if as you say - having a mask, cape/costume, funny moniker /secret identity are the chief requirements for being defined a "super-hero" then indeed El Diablo may fit the role of first in the DCAU. By their time line he would have been active in the late 1800s.

What's great about that, is by the same criteria if - having mask, cape, costume, secret ID etc. are the criteria, then our real world analogue Zorro would be "the first" in the real world as well. The Scarlet Pimpernell, Robin Hood, etc, going back from there to infinity, did not wear capes, costumes or masks to have a secret identity.

Of course then you get into the whole what defines "Super" hero, vs. just a non Superpowered vigilante, is it the cape costume secret ID, or having powers, and where does Batman fall in etc...?

What's nice about using the Gray Ghost character as "the first" in the DCAU, is - he really is a nod to the pulps where the likes of Zorro, the Shadow, Doc Samson and others originated, and at the same time the comic strips where The Phantom (as in Ghost who walks/ who wore Gray) came from, who really were the precursors to the super-heroes.
So by holding The Gray Ghost as the first that inspired all others in the DCAU, you're putting Animated Batman & Superman on more equal footing since neither of them were first, and at the same time acknowledging the real pulps which actually did nfluence them.

The 1st!
http://mymedia.myfoxla.com/media01/00000/20/73/MzIwMTc3_large.jpg or in the same vein - the Justice Guild of John Stewart's old comics, not sure which chronologically comes first.

[Joker1238]

Superman may be the first "Super" hero in comics, not sure on that. But we are forgetting the 1920's here. A good ten years or so before Superman.

We had the Shadow, Dick Tracy, and other Al Capon era type of eras.

These guys are what started it all imo. Not Superman.

[SetTheControls]

I know this is a considerably old thread, but I had to put in my two cents.

Superman was the first superhero in the DCAU. And there's a bit more to it than just, "Because Batman has no superpowers."

Remember that for a couple years after B:TAS made its debut, there was no DC Animated Universe yet ... just the Batman Animated Universe. Where there were no superheroes, just a lone, grim vigilante lurking in the shadows of the bleak city under his protection. In comparison to how sprawling and absurd the extent of the DC Universe was in the comics (and I don't mean that derisively, I respect DC's history), it was downright sobering, and refreshing to see the world of Batman and Gotham stripped down to its core essence.

So, when S:TAS came along and "World's Finest" established that both series existed in the same universe, it made Superman's arrival in what had just been Batman's universe all the more a milestone, because it'd been established that there had yet to be anyone or anything like him. (So, I guess it kind of is just, "Superman was the first, because Batman had no superpowers" after all. But it's also "B:TAS was allowed to be so great because it was just Batman. Without superheroes and aliens and time travel having to be in the same universe - yet - it made Gotham just a bit more believable.")

Starting with B:TAS, Bruce Timm carefully built the DCAU one step at a time. And we're all the more fortunate for it.

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Glad to see this thread has been bumped again, since it coincides with this week's upcoming Smallville premiere, which had me thinking again about how in the "Smallville Universe" Superman isn't quite "Superman" until after the introduction of several other heroes, which includes Green Arrow, Flash/Impulse, Aquaman, Cyborg, J'onn J'onzz, etc. -- Even at one point Kara evolved closer to being Supergirl than Clark has to being Superman. Now we have the Justice Society coming up in full costume, but that's understandable considering these guys are from the WWII era.

Anyway, I think when it all comes down to it, I prefer the idea that Superman was the first superhero in the DC Universe because he was created first and encompasses everything a superhero should be or strive to be. I like that he was the inspiration, at least to some degree, for everyone who wore a costume and fought crime, with or without superpowers.

If we're talking DC Universe Pre-Crisis in comics, Superman should always be regarded as the first and even have inspired the Justice Society. If we're talking DC Universe Post-Crisis in comics, then he should be the first "modern" superhero with regards to Justice Society being from an earlier era or an alternate world. In either situation his existence should always predate, or almost simultaneously run along side, that of Batman's. Of course there's plenty of good reasons why Batman being first makes for a good argument in the DC Animated Universe, and I can go with that, too, but for the most part I like the idea of Superman being the superhero equivalent of the Biblical Adam.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I think it's an interesting topic to say the least. :shrug: In different situations and interpretations sometimes Superman comes first. Like in Comics, in DCAU universe it looks to me like it is the other way around. Mostly because BTAS was created first so it seems like Batman was around before Superman. Personally, I believe that both Superheroes started operating in their cities' around the same time! :)
I do think that JLU and Teen Titans came afterwards.
I wonder why on all animated shows done so far guest stars only appear at the last season of the show? :confused: JLU is the only exception of this I can think of.

[theRedDeath]

This IS an interesting topic. I'm also glad to see it bumped.

One of the other reasons I always see Superman as having come before Batman, is the real-world fact that Bob Kane based Batman off of Superman, and that's why they're costumes are so similar. In fact Kane originally wanted to give Batman powers like Superman too, before Bill Finger talked him out of it.

So in my mind, within the narrative of the DC universe, I always saw it as Batman not only coming after Superman, but directly acknowledging Superman as an influence and basing his "Bat" costume off Superman's costume.

But that could just be me.
---

[Lucho]

In fact Kane originally wanted to give Batman powers like Superman too, before Bill Finger talked him out of it.


Say what?
Batman was never going to have superpowers that I know of. Yes Finger came in and re worked the concept that is commonly known, but the changes involved the costume, Kane's Batman had attached wings more akin to DaVinci's ornithopter, Finger turned them into a more flowing scalloped cape, but the wings were not a superpower, he removed the red from the costume and switched for gray, and aded a cowl with all-white-eyes instead of just an open-eyed-domino mask, to make him more like Lee Falk's Phantom.
And then inserted him in a story he cribbed from a Shadow story.
But where has it ever been said that "In fact Kane originally wanted to give Batman powers like Superman" ?


"Zorro’s use of a mask to conceal his identity as Don Diego gave me the idea of giving Batman a secret identity…Bruce Wayne would be a man of means who put on a façade of being effete. Zorro rode a black horse called Tornado and would enter a cave and exit from a grandfather clock in the living room. The bat-cave was inspired by this cave in Zorro. I didn't want Batman to be a Superhero with superpowers…So I made Batman an ordinary human being; he is just an athlete who has the physical prowess of Douglas Fairbanks, Sr., who was my all-time favorite hero in the movies.” –Bob Kane

Both Kane and Finger were fans of Fairbanks, (particularly his portrayal of Zorro and other swashbucklers) who was decidedly unlike Superman in that he was an ordinary man with no powers doing extraordinary things while in costume.

[Joker1238]

Batman was mostly base off of Dick Tracy and the Shadow, and some Robin Hood.

[theRedDeath]

But where has it ever been said that "In fact Kane originally wanted to give Batman powers like Superman" ?

I could be remembering it wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what it said in the Kane documentary on the "Gotham Knight" dtDVD movie. I would check, but I sold my copy.

If that wasn't it, then I can't recall. I definitely didn't make that up though, I heard it somewhere...I know it was a documentary, and not something I read. There were so many Batman docs out the past couple years though because of Dark Knight, I can't be 100% certain which one.

---

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Batman was mostly base off of Dick Tracy and the Shadow, and some Robin Hood.

Plus The Bat, Zorro and Dracula.