"WWE RAW" Talkback (Spoilers)

[The Penguin]

Last week, Shawn Michaels kept to his word and stayed loyal to his tag team partner John Cena, despite promises of bonuses from JBL if he turned on the World Champion. Tonight, Michaels has been booked against Cena so there will no confusion as to whose side anyone is on. Also tonight, we have a rematch of the Intercontinental Championship from last week and what will Stephanie McMahon do with one week until her father returns?

WWE.com (http://www.wwe.com/superstars/halloffame/articles/9109986) has announced Stone Cold Steve Austin as the first member of the WWE Hall of Fame Class of 2009 and to expect more details tonight on RAW!


http://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/wwe.jpghttp://library.toonzone.net/talkbacks/raw.jpgWWE RAW #816
Monday, January 12, 2009 @ 9 p.m. ET/8 CT on USA Network

HIRED HIT
Just weeks before The Champ battles JBL at the Royal Rumble, the "wrestling god" has placed a hefty hurdle in the path of the World Heavyweight Champion. On Raw, John Cena faces Shawn Michaels, with JBL in his employee's corner.

RAW EMOTION
Randy Orton may have rejected Kelly Kelly a little too late. On Raw, the Legend Killer faces Kane as the Big Red Monster seeks to expel his pain of unrequited love for the blonde Diva. Is this the premature end of Orton's "Legacy"?

MCMAHON RETURNS
As announced on Raw, WWE Chairman Vincent Kennedy McMahon will make his return to WWE in just one week. Mr. McMahon's six-month long absence was a result of a terrible accident at the 2008 WWE Draft.

RAW TWO-TIMERS
The Straightedge Superstar came within inches of seizing the gold from Intercontinental Champion William Regal this past Monday night. In their rematch on Raw, if Regal gets himself disqualified again, he will lose the match and the title.

[The Penguin]

Rewarded? Rewarded?!!! It’s awarded you stupid bimbo!!! Where is Howard Finkel?!!! :mad:

[hobbyfan]

I believe I asked last week when Ted DiBiase, Jr. would return with his movie done. Tonight, we got our answer. Snuka & Manu got swerved by the former tag team champs. Assuming Ted is ready to wrestle again, I suspect a tag match is in order for next week.

3 1/2 years ago, Eric Bischoff "fired" Chris Jericho after Summerslam when Jericho couldn't beat John Cena. Of course, 3 1/2 months later, Bischoff himself was gone. Tonight must've felt like deja vu, but for Steph, I think she must've been waiting longer---say, about 8-9 years----to "fire" Jericho. Of course, this time, Chris will be back, because Vince will undo this decision next week. That's virtually guara-damn-teed.

Given that WWE legit fired some wrestlers & refs last weekend, the scene of Jericho being escorted by security was a shot at the internet reporters who said security was escorting the dismissed personnel out of HQ.

I suspect we're seeing either another bumbling ref angle or Scott Armstrong may be going rogue and joining the Legacy after he missed Kane lifting his shoulder at 2 vs. Orton. Normally, a mere dropkick wouldn't be enough to put Big Red away, but......

I don't know who the ref was in the IC title match, but he screwed up as well. Discretion? Maybe. Stupid booking to prolong the feud? Yep. No-DQ next week, but maybe this requires a special guest ref......

Mysterio beats Miz, but Mike Knox attacks again. Why they haven't booked Knox to wrestle---aside from the 10 man tag 2 weeks ago----since coming from ECW, I don't know, but his first singles match is next week vs. Mysterio.

How soon before Rosa Mendez "gets a contract" to feud with Melina? It's rare that a women's tag match is treated the same as a men's match, with a pre-match angle preventing the bout from starting, but they needed to build heat for the Rumble match between Beth & Melina. No sign of Santino. Hmmmmmm.

HBK says he doesn't need J-Me-L in his corner vs. John Cena. I'd say I agree, but Cena's well served to have someone in his corner to offset the carpetbagging con artist.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. J-Me-L subtly moved the rope to force a break. If Charles Robinson sees him doing that, Layfield gets tossed, but it might not have had an effect on the result. This wasn't like the classic clinic Cena & Michaels put on in England a couple of years back, but I suspected HBK would go over here. All that says is that JBL is jobbing in Detroit.

[The Penguin]

I don’t think that was quite what Jericho had in mind when he started insulting Stephanie. A “lame duck” can’t do much to you long term, but you need to remember that they are still in charge at the moment you are calling them a lame duck.

If he doesn’t want to cut a promo, maybe Mike Knox could send WWE Mobile users a text message or post on WWE Universe about why he keeps attacking Rey Mysterio. I even came up with something simple, Knox thinks wrestling is a big man’s game and feels guys like Mysterio and Evan Bourne have no place there. See how easy that was?

I guess someone decided that the ‘Diva count’ on tonight’s show was low with the way Candice was just put backstage for CM Punk to ignore. She looked good doing it though.

…So like said earlier, Lilian Garcia still manages to suck despite her many years of experience. I thought she would have left to be a full-time singer by now. Apparently that isn’t working out.

I’m not 100% sure if Punk’s punch was a low blow or not, but based on Regal’s reaction and John Cone’s vantage point, I’m not surprised he called for the bell. It was pretty clear it was going to led to a no DQ match which Stephanie made moments later, but I was hoping we would have one or two more weeks and then a match at the Rumble. I’m never clear going in if one can be counted out in a no DQ match because it is a form of disqualification.

Seeing Mickie talking to Cody reminded me of how they teamed up for a week or two earlier in his career and Cody escorted her to some wedding or something (I’m blanking on what it was now). He didn’t seem as interested now as he did then, but Sim Snuka and Manu confronting you is liable to make anyone forget Mickie James (at least anyone smart enough to not want to be beat up).

That was an excellent (and longer than I expected) video to announce Stone Cold’s entrance into the Hall of Fame. It should be a great night (to eventually watch on DVD, because we know that any airing of the ceremony will be all chopped up).

As soon as I heard Cole say “vintage Kane” I realized I had forgotten to print on the Michael Cole BINGO card! There’s always next week.

The execution didn’t look quite right, but I was expecting/hoping for Snuka & Manu to bring Ted DiBiase with them and then he turn on the two islanders in favor of Orton and Cody. I don’t know if this group will add one more or not, but it’s a solid three and I don’t think Snuka and Manu have a shot. ;)

In regards to Rosa, I was going to say that the other tired angle of introducing a woman other than “obsessed fan” is “who was that woman?” and Rosa managed to do that tonight when she attacked Melina. Beth Phoenix had better be careful with that WWE camera, sometimes they explode into a fireball, just ask Hulk Hogan.

It was short-sighted of WWE to have Orton take out DiBiase in the first place after what they were starting to build at the time, so I was glad Teddy said “the past is the past” (heck, Cody and his dad feuded with Orton shortly after his arrival) and then they just short of moved on. Sim Snuka and Manu may make an impact, but not like Rhodes and DiBiase should over time.

“Catch you on the flip side, home cheeses.” The backstage segment with Noble, Doph Ziggler, Goldust and Cryme Tyme hoping to get into the Rumble was fun. If I were those guys, I would be concerned once I found out Santino got in and I didn’t know my status.

JBL got what he wanted out of the main event with Cena laying on the mat as HBK walked away. I believe tonight was the debut of Cena’s submission hold being called the STF. JR has said that the FU will now be called The Throwback which was the name of a flying neckbreaker-type move Cena used to do.

[sag_2002]

*So, Jericho gets a little too mouthy to Steph, and proceeds to get fired because of it. Of course, we all know Y2J+9 will be back, and it'll likely come next week when Vinnie Mac returns.

*The Hall of Fame class of '09 is already shaping up to be epic, with BAH GAWD STONE COLD!!! being announced as the first inductee. Very nice tribute package, too.

*There were a couple blown calls tonight. Perhaps WWE should institute instant replay.

*It looks like Orton's Legacy stable has been finalized. Ted Dibiase returns, only to turn on the Samoans and join his former Priceless teammates.

*When Beth came out for her match without Santino, I got a little worried. Luckily, my boy came through in the clutch once again. "Catch you on the flip side, home cheeses" earns Line of the Night honors.

*Cena/Michaels was the usual MOTYC.

*And for those who like to keep track of such things, we had 4 "Vintage"s tonight. (Although 2 were by Lawler, surprisingly.)

Decent RAW, highlighted by another solid Cena/Michaels ME.

[Condiment King]

So this wasn't the greatest Raw in the world, but it was worth watching because of the Legacy angle and the Cena-Michaels match.

One of the main problems of this Raw was that they kept showing some things over and over again. Stephanie firing Chris Jericho was showed three times and appeared on a ticker as BREAKING NEWS at least twice. That seems like a bit of overkill for a two-hour program. In addition, Vince McMahon's return, a return I am not enthusiastic about at all and in fact dread, was hyped up with at least three video compilations. I mean, it's good to build-up the next Raw but to call the next Raw "historic" because Vince is coming back makes me roll my eyes. How much is he in love with himself?

I really wish Jericho would go to Smackdown and start a feud with the Undertaker to lead to Wrestlemania. I had heard a rumor about that, which I really wish is true. Plus Jericho moving to Smackdown would freshen things up a bit, because he's already had long feuds with Shawn Michaels, Batista and John Cena. Basically the only guys left I could see him feuding with are Rey Mysterio or CM Punk, both of which are in the early stages of different feuds. I assume Vince will just bring Jericho back next week, but I kinda wish he would go to Smackdown. I feel like he could do great dressing downs of Jeff Hardy in promos.

Speaking of Rey's long feud with Mike Knox, a feud that has felt like it has gone on forever even though a singles match has yet to take place, I am so bored. Like Penguin said, Knox hasn't even explained why he is beating up Rey. And it's been weeks. Rey vs Miz was a decent match, but Knox coming out was amazingly predictable.

Regal vs Punk II was about as good as the first match, decent but killed by the time it got. Even with a finish like this, you can have an extended match. One could even argue having an extended, good match might make the fans want a clear-cut conclusion more. Same argument as last week: why isn't the rematch at the Royal Rumble? When are they going to announce something else for the Rumble? It's only two weeks away.

Kane vs Orton was OK with a bizarre conclusion. It looked kind of like the ref made a mistake, and they improv'd that Kane was screwed. I don't know. The Legacy angle after it was great. I love that Ted Dibiase is back and especially that he turned on Snuka & Manu. I just hope that this isn't their way of getting rid of Snuka and Manu for a while to repackage them and debut them later or something. I hope they keep this tag team and start a feud with Dibiase & Rhodes. If they maintain Snuka & Manu, Raw's tag team division could be pretty great. They would have to turn full-fledge face, though, for it to work. That might be hard for guys like Snuka and Manu, but Dibiase & Rhodes on the mic could make it work by acting uber-heelish to them.

When I saw the segment about getting into the Rumble, I realized how little Cryme Tyme and especially Jamie Noble are on the show now. I also realized Santino was barely on this Raw and that saddened me.

I really liked how Beth Phoenix's rabid fan appeared this time. And I also liked Beth taunting Melina. This could be a pretty decent match. I wish Natalya was on Raw so she could be Beth's partner in these female tag matches and not Jillian. Jillian is such a waste.

Cena-Michaels started slow but it built and got real good. I loved the back-and-forth at the end, as well as JBL pushing the bottom rope a bit in Michaels' direction. JBL has to be pleased with the hit HBK put on the doctah of thuganomics. I don't care what anyone says -- the JBL/HBK storyline is aces in my book.

[Mesousa]

Jeez, what was up with the referees? Are they trying to get fired, too?

Also, I wonder what's the secret when it comes to Cena and HBK facing each other? Everytime they fight, all of you get excited and always credit it as a "Match of the Year".

[The Penguin]

Jeez, what was up with the referees? Are they trying to get fired, too?I do find that especially interesting since WWE recently released Mike Posey (short ECW ref) and one of the newer refs. Along with Tim White and Jimmy Korderas, who were both on the sidelines, but serving in other roles

[RedNinja84]

I don't know why, but HBK seems to always bring the best of Cena. That was one his best worked matches in awhile. And the crowd was actually into the match for once.

[Hobbes829]

Cena's promo had energy, but was subdued. i really wish he would do promos like this more often.

[peterg14]

VINTAGE MICHAEL COLE! That's all I need to say about that.

Was I the only one annoyed by those McMahon promos? Woohoo, a 63 year old man cutting pointless Raw start promos that don't start, continue, or end a storyline. Yay for Vince picking fights with little guys because he can, I'm ecstatic. :shrug:

HBK vs Cena was good, but now I wonder what's gonna happen to Manu and Snuka? I'm sure they didn't bring Manu up to have two matches, get squashed, job to CoDiBiOrton, and then get wished well in his future endeavors. Same goes for Snuka, what was the point in changing his name if he wasn't going to do anything significant. Or maybe this is just typical WWE and I'm thinking too much.

[RedNinja84]

I'd like to see Manu and Snuka as a tag team and see how it works. You could call them the Pacific Express or something :confused:

[Mesousa]

I'd like to see Manu and Snuka as a tag team and see how it works. You could call them the Pacific Express or something :confused:

Yeah...and that's what fanfiction is for.

I'm not making fun of you, I just can't seem to see that, unless the WWE are really serious about making a storyline like this.

[RedNinja84]

Well I just wanted to see what happens. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work but Raw is hurting for tag teams so why not try. They most likely will either end up in Florida or just let go.

[Nygma]

Same argument as last week: why isn't the rematch at the Royal Rumble? When are they going to announce something else for the Rumble? It's only two weeks away.

Well Raw is in Chicago next week.;)

Anyways onto Raw discussion, since I was watching 24 that night and had Tivo record this.

-JBL says since he is Shawn's boss; he's fighting for a paycheck tonight. Uhh, how is that allegedly any different than what he does under WWE employment?

-Stephanie comes out to tell us she's happy that her father is coming back. But before she can start to bore this crowd Jericho comes out and calls Stephanie a lame duck. He says that following Mike Adamle's incompetence makes anybody look good, BURN. Then they start getting into some boring arguements like some old married couple, that makes me miss the old Jericho a little. Anyways the payoff is that Stephanie fires Jericho, ummm yeah, not buying it.

-Rey Mysterio def. The Miz: *1/2
Perfectly acceptable wrestling here, it amazes how much Miz has improved from what he used to be. Rey getting dropped face first into the corner deserves a mention. After the match Knox predictably attacks, but Mysterio fights back. Apparently it's Mysterio vs. Knox next week. Yeah.

-Candice talks to Punk in the back about Vince returning next week. But Punk was listening to his mp3 player. Homer: "2.) When Poochie's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Poochie?""

-We get our 1st Vince video as I fast forward.

-Intercontinental Title: William Regal(c) (w/Layla) retains against CM Punk by DQ: 3/4*
Uggghhh... again? This finish was even lamer than last weeks. They better deliver in Chicago next week, or they're just going to tick off the fanbase even more.

-Mickie James is talking to Cody Rhodes for God knows what reason about the weather. Yeah Iowa weather sucks, I know. Manu and Snucka warn Cody that they're coming after Orton, and they brought someone like them. He tells him to pick a side.

-Stephanie makes Punk vs. Regal No Dq next week, so look for a count out finish.

-They announce Stone Cold Steve Austin as the 1st inductee into the 2009 Hall of Fame. With a neat video package. But for crying out loud get to some, I don't know WRESTLING!

-JBL says that Shawn might as well consider this his Wrestlemania. Shawn says if so, he won't need JBL to beat Cena *cough* Wrestlemania 23 *cough*.

-Another Vince video shown, with him saying that "I will do what is right for business, every time." BWHAHAHAHAHAHA, you can't buy comedy like that.

-Randy Orton def. Kane: *1/2
What an incredibly boring match this was, as it was nothing more than them doing their generic punch-kick offense. And with the 2nd stupid finish on the night. Kane looks like he's going to kick the ref's ass for the finish, good for him.

-After the match, we get the exciting showdown of Randy Orton and Cody Rhodes against Manu, Snucka, and a returning Ted Dibiase Jr., but it's a swerve as Dibiase, Rhodes, and Orton team up to give Manu and Snucka a beat down. The beat down is so intense that you can hear a pin drop within all that breathtaking silence. I'm guessing Orton, Rhodes, and Dibiase are the official Legacy stable. I'm so unimpressed that I'm just going to call them the Vanilla Legacy from now on.

-A video of Jericho fired is shown again. ENOUGH with the talking, get back to wrestling.

-Meanwhile Todd interviews Cena, and John gives both JBL and Shawn a verbal blowjob. LAME.

-No tag match as Rosa Mendez jumps Melina from behind, Beth and Jillian follow up as security drags Rosa out. Nice beatdown, but we just had one a couple minutes ago.

-More boring Vince videos, apparently his Hollywood star is next to Kermit The Frog. Make your own jokes here.

-Apparently all 3 members of Legacy are in. And Dibiase doesn't have any self respect apparently.

-Santino takes Jericho's spot in The Rumble.

-Royal Rumble rundown:
30 Man Royal Rumble
WWE Title: Edge vs. Jeff Hardy(c)
World Heavyweight Title: JBL (w/Shawn Michaels) vs. John Cena(c)
Women's Title: Melina vs. Beth Phoenix(c)
They'll need at least one more match so look for Matt Hardy vs. Jack Swagger for the ECW Title

-Shawn Michaels (w/JBL) def. John Cena: ****1/2
Tremendous match that salvaged a hideously boring show. The match started slow but once they kicked out of second gear we got an early match of the year contender. I especially loved the counter wrestling between Cena and Michaels throughout. Especially when they interupted each other's own personal 5 Moves of Doom sequences. Didn't like the distraction finish, but I liked the subtle finish with JBL nudging the rope forward so HBK could reach it.

-After the match JBL stands above a lying Cena. You know what would add some heat, giving him a beat down. Not just standing there.

-Overall: about ***, 2 of those stars go to Cena and Michaels tearing the house down. The rest was boring. Especially all the Vince hype videos and showing Y2J being fired 3 times was overkill.
So far the JBL-HBK storyline isn't doing much for me. Mostly because JBL isn't pressuring or manipulating Shawn in to doing anything that he would consider unethical, aside from laying down in the ring for him. So the storyline lacks that certain ooommmppphhh.
I think it's pretty clear that Orton is locked in to win the Royal Rumble. Last month I would've said Batista, but he's out now. So the winner is obvious.

[Hobbes829]

Even though you'd think that hbk is fighting for a paycheck seems redundant, you'd be surprised at the fact that it's more important than you think. Think of wrestlers as 2 prize fighters. Who's the one that walks away with more money? The winner! Unfortunately that's one of the things that a lot of wrestlers dont understand. There is one story that should be told in every match: that you are trying to win because if you win, you make more money. Sure, in real life who wins and who loses is for the most part irrelevant to the amount of money they make on a given night, but you don't tell the audience that. Remember: it's a show, you're trying to get the audience to suspend disbelief. At least the better talent are.

Lance storm has an interesting article on the CM Punk - Regal feud.

Vince WILL do what's right for business every time. Hindsight is 20-20, but i don't think vince sets out to do anything of questionable quality.

I'm not a big fan of Cena's promos, as i think he has a huge tendency to overact, but he did a nice subdued money promo. Promos should be used to sell a match. That's why it's called a promo(tion). You give the people the selling points of the product, which he did. He said that HBK might not be able to compete at wrestlemania, so he was going to give that to shawn, and in my opinion the delivered on a match that was as good if not better than their match at wm 23. Cena oversells the product in an effort to get people excited. The problem with it is that if you promise people the greatest thing ever, and don't deliver, you've shot yourself in the foot and defeated your own purpose. You've ruined your own credibility. It's like the kid who cried wolf. At some point people won't believe what you say.

[Nygma]

Sure, in real life who wins and who loses is for the most part irrelevant to the amount of money they make on a given night, but you don't tell the audience that. Remember: it's a show, you're trying to get the audience to suspend disbelief. At least the better talent are.

If they're trying to convince me, they aren't doing a good job of it. If JBL isn't going to tempt Shawn into doing anything unethical, then this storyline is a waste IMO.


Vince WILL do what's right for business every time. Hindsight is 20-20, but i don't think vince sets out to do anything of questionable quality.

Just like when he screwed Bret Hart with the Montreal incident, or when he exploited Owen Hart's death just for the sake of popping a rating, or the XFL.:p

[Hobbes829]

Just like when he screwed Bret Hart with the Montreal incident, or when he exploited Owen Hart's death just for the sake of popping a rating, or the XFL.:p
not another montreal debate... ugh
He thought bret was going to leave with the belt and not do what was right for business.
He thought paying tribute to owen was a good idea. that's hardly exploitation. He'd rather have owen alive.
He thought the xfl was a good idea
He's not omniscient, he makes mistakes

[hobbyfan]

-Overall: about ***, 2 of those stars go to Cena and Michaels tearing the house down. The rest was boring. Especially all the Vince hype videos and showing Y2J being fired 3 times was overkill.
So far the JBL-HBK storyline isn't doing much for me. Mostly because JBL isn't pressuring or manipulating Shawn in to doing anything that he would consider unethical, aside from laying down in the ring for him. So the storyline lacks that certain ooommmppphhh.
I think it's pretty clear that Orton is locked in to win the Royal Rumble. Last month I would've said Batista, but he's out now. So the winner is obvious.

Not quite so obvious. Past winners like HHH & Undertaker are in the field on the Smackdown side. Orton is not a clear cut favorite, and I don't see him winning at all.

[Wonderwall]

Not quite so obvious. Past winners like HHH & Undertaker are in the field on the Smackdown side. Orton is not a clear cut favorite, and I don't see him winning at all.

I can see Orton winning more than those 2, especially Taker, who aside from the 07 Rumble, he really doesn't have success there( talking kayfabe here just reminding so I dont get called out that the show is scripted ), Trips might win it, but I think its time to see him elsewhere on the Wrestlemania card that's not the main event, have feud with someone not for a title, freshen up his character a bit. And it's also been too long since a heel won the Rumble, I mean who was the last heel to win? Vince...10 years ago.

[Mesousa]

Well Raw is in Chicago next week.;)

Uh, I can't quite tell if that's bad (hometown jobber) or if that's good (Regal got the title in the UK, so this might bite him back?).


And it's also been too long since a heel won the Rumble, I mean who was the last heel to win? Vince...10 years ago.

Um, a heel winning the Royal Rumble? That's prepostreous. A face will so win it again. ;)

The reason Vince won in that one was because it wasn't for a Wrestlemania title shot, it was something else.

[Hobbes829]

Uh, I can't quite tell if that's bad (hometown jobber) or if that's good (Regal got the title in the UK, so this might bite him back?).



Um, a heel winning the Royal Rumble? That's prepostreous. A face will so win it again. ;)

The reason Vince won in that one was because it wasn't for a Wrestlemania title shot, it was something else.
It was for a title shot, but in the storyline, vince gave it up since the rock was part of the corporation and the champ. However, HBK as the commissioner told vince that because he as the winner gave up his title shot it goes to the runner up which was austin. Then they made a steel cage match between austin and vince with the added stipulation that if austin lost he would lose his shot at the title at wrestlemania.

[hobbyfan]

Um, a heel winning the Royal Rumble? That's prepostreous. A face will so win it again. ;)

Let's check the records:

1988 (USA Network): Hacksaw Jim Duggan
1989 (1st PPV Rumble): Big John Studd (who was a face at the time)
1990-91: Hulk Hogan
1992: Ric Flair (1st heel to win the Rumble)
1993: Yokozuna
1994: Bret Hart/Lex Luger
1995-6: Shawn Michaels
1997-8: Stone Cold Steve Austin
1999: Vince McMahon (though he didn't do a whole heckuva lot, and spent more of his time on the floor being cowardly & lazy).
2000: The Rock
2001: Austin
2002: Triple H (as a face)
2003: Brock Lesnar
2004: Chris Benoit
2005: Dave Batista
2006: Rey Mysterio
2007: Undertaker
2008: John Cena

If you want to get technical: Batista was the last heel to win the Rumble, but was in the midst of a face turn.

[Mesousa]

If you want to get technical: Batista was the last heel to win the Rumble, but was in the midst of a face turn.

OF COURSE! I REMEMBER NOW!

He was part of the Evolution stable at that time!

Hold a second, shouldn't he count as a tweener?